Early Puberty Often More Hazardous

An anonymous reader writes "CNN is reporting that scientists are taking a look at the social ramifications of hitting puberty early. From the article: "'There is something unique about early maturity (relative to one's peers) that opens opportunities for victimization experiences,' the study's authors write. 'It's not puberty that is what ultimately causes kids to get victimized,' study co-author Dr. Alex Piquero, a criminologist at the University of Florida, told Reuters Health. 'Early puberty seems to open up a different set of doors and social experiences to kids,' he said, explaining that early maturing youngsters may start socializing with the opposite sex and with older, bigger, and stronger youth earlier than those who do not experience puberty early."

Comments

Me

[Mozk]

It seemed like I hit puberty way earlier than my peers. I remember in 4th or 5th grade having a deep voice (has not gotten deeper since...) and being taller than the other kids. Now everybody is about as tall as me. Contrary to the article however, I saw myself as being mature and being able to handle fights, drugs, and relationships. It's mostly just in your mind in my opinion. If you think you're bigger and better than the other kids than that's your problem (or it could be nature's way of dealing with things).

Re:Me

[Anonymous Coward]

And after that promising start, now you're FP-ing on Slashdot. Bummer.

Re:Me

[Fosnez]

Contrary to the article however, I saw myself as being mature and being able to handle fights, drugs, and relationships
Yup! Sounds like a teenager to me, made of steel!

Re:Me

[carpe_noctem]

...being able to handle fights, drugs, and relationships

All at the same time? Pssssh, mature my arse!

Re:Me

[Vintermann]

When I had my conscientous-objector service I took a course on bullying, which was offered since a lot of us ended up serving at schools. I remember reading the claim that whereas early puberty can be a problem for girls, for boys there is no correlation between early puberty and social problems later in life. The explanation was that being taller and more manly is only a plus for a boy, as it earns respect, but for girls the weight gain, acne and other physical changes are much less popular. Also, early girls often meet much older boys, and the kind of sixteen year old who would date a 11-year old is rarely a good influence.
(Source: Dan Olweus, "Mobbing i skolen", from memory)
That primarily applies to Norwegian culture, though, and here it's have much less pressure to be a "macho man" than elsewhere, if we are to believe Geert Hofstede and his femininity scale. I would imagine things would be different in a society with more sharply defined gender roles.

Re:Me

[BobBobBobBobBob]

Uhm, it makes sense if you're talking about girls.

A girl who hits puberty early will end up associating with boys who are also at least pubescent, which means older and bigger and stronger (even moreso than the usual gap between an average man and average woman of the same age).

Re:So if the inverse is true

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats why I haven't been raped by a group of hot cheerleaders yet...

Dumb.

[Mancat]

Oh look. Another fluff study done almost entirely by statisticians so that they could suck up grant money and waste my tax dollars. Really important research you're doing there, guys. Children entering puberty at an early age MIGHT get into fights or have sex more early? So what? When did our society define the age at which these acts should first occur? I must have missed that.

Re:Dumb.

[cmdr_beeftaco]

It's 12, didn't you get the memo?

Re:Dumb.

[Dachannien]

When did our society define the age at which these acts should first occur?

I think the point is that self-destructive acts aren't ever supposed to occur at all.

Re:Dumb.

[Jesapoo]

"When did our society define the age at which these acts should first occur?" Er... I'm pretty sure there are laws in most countries about the 'age of consent' - the minimum age at which sex is permitted. The law is the most obvious way that "society" has to show when these acts are acceptable. Laws exist against drug use and violence, too, although these are more commonly *never* 'socially' acceptable (i.e. the blanket illegality of heroin or GBH, rather than an acceptable age) Of course, what "society" finds acceptable is a rather wooly term. In the UK for instance, it is illegal for people under the age of 16 to smoke and for under 18s to drink alcohol. However, some people view this as overly restrictive - hence why there is such an issue of underage drinking, as well as smoking and sex. If the entirety of society viewed it as a total taboo, it wouldn't happen as much. An example of this is the increasing rate of teenage pregnancy. Years ago, a young girl getting pregnant, particularly without being married, was a major society no-no, and was less common. Nowadays, 14- and 15-year-old single mothers are freely open about this. Drug use is another area where "society" and the law are sometimes at odds - for instance, there is a notable minority of people who think marijuana should be legalised. What I would have thought would have been a much more useful piece of research would be to find out at what age different people engage in these activities, and relating that not only to the age at which they hit puberty, but also things like social and ethnic groups. But then, I'd be surprised if this research has not been done beforehand.

Re:Dumb.

[mboverload]

I believe pregnacy in anyone less than 14-15 is dangerous. Some MD come and correct me, please.

Re:Dumb.

[Mr2001]

Thankfully, we live in an age when sex doesn't have to lead to pregnancy unless you want it to.

Re:Dumb.

[Eli Gottlieb]

Except of course, in those places that restrict selling condoms and birth-control pills to youth.

Re:Dumb.

[mrchaotica]

Since when was sex a "self-destructive act?!"

Re:Dumb.

[Mad_Rain]

Another fluff study done almost entirely by statisticians so that they could suck up grant money and waste my tax dollars.

I think you should write the researchers and demand your $0.00001 back.

Re:Dumb.

[c_forq]

Sex in itself isn't. But sex that results in a child or a disease transmission... especially when most of your peers can't even produce children...

Re:Dumb.

[c_forq]

Umm... last time I looked into it child baring used to be very dangerous for the mother, with mothers commonly dying in the process. Today it is still dangerious, but less so because of C-sections.

Re:Dumb.

[vertinox]

Since when was sex a "self-destructive act?!"

Only when it burns when you pee.

Re:Dumb.

[LurkerXXX]

You mean your hand doesn't get chafed too?

Re:Dumb.

[Ruff_ilb]

IANAMD, but...
You're using a circular argument; age is usually an indication of physical maturity, which is what really matters when it comes down to pregancy being safe - a 14 year old mature girl will have a safer pregnancy than an 17 year old one who has just started puberty.

So if girls are getting pregnant earlier because they're maturing earlier, it doesn't necessarily make it more dangerous.

Of course, I am of the opinion that 14 is too young to have a child under almost any circumstances; regardless of physical maturity, the psycological dangers cannot be disregarded.

Re:Dumb.

[peterfa]

What I was thinking of is a child getting caught up in a sexual affair with an older person. This would be child abuse actually. The mature body doesn't exactly mean a mature mind. Though puberty does help the mind mature.

Re:Dumb.

[c_forq]

Ahh, I was thinking of cases where 14 year olds (or younger) get pregnant, or children who are born with STDs pass it to another.

Re:Dumb.

[dr.badass]

So what? When did our society define the age at which these acts should first occur? I must have missed that.

The reason this is being studied has a lot to do with the fact that earlier-than-normal puberty is becoming more common (due to diet changes, chemical exposure, or any number of unknown causes) and that our society just isn't adapted to it yet. It's already a concern from a public health standpoint, but it's only recently cought the interest of sociologists. Most of us know from experience that sexual maturity does not go hand-in-hand with emotional maturity, and so there are a lot of questions about how this will affect our society in the future.

You can go on thinking what you will about the study itself, but I think your reaction is a bit too knee-jerk to be modded "Interesting".

Re:Dumb.

[Breakfast Pants]

You are right. The problem is that if he could get it back from all of such programs (for instance the new stadium being built in x influential senator's hometown) he could reclaim half his taxes. That a lot of writing to do.

Re:Dumb.

[heinousjay]

That's why the FSM intelligently designed the anus to substitute. Ain't no one birthin no ass babies.

Re:Dumb.

[Greg_D]

Are you really that dense?

Sex for pre-teens and early teens is absolutely self destructive. They don't fully appreciate the consequences of their actions, and the result many times is an early pregnancy, and with it for the girls, the stigma of being a young mother or the slut who had the abortion. And how'd you like to be a guy who takes over child support payments at 18? Even if they go to college, they'll probably have to limit their choices to local schools to stay close to their kid, and their free time will be eaten up by paying for their mistake.

Re:Dumb.

[winwar]

"Sex for pre-teens and early teens is absolutely self destructive. They don't fully appreciate the consequences of their actions,..."

Well, I'm glad that adults don't have that problem. :)

Re:Dumb.

[CarpetShark]

I think child abuse is more like when someone uses a child for something other than what they would normally do. So, although I'm absolutely NOT saying that a child who reaches puberty is "fair game", abuse would be more the opposite of early puberty. For instance, if an older kid who was interested in sex used a kid for sex who hadn't yet reached puberty, and had no interest in sex and no understanding of sex, that would be much more abusive.

To me, the self-destructive comment was just misplaced. Although, it's an important concept, and often worth considering in relation to growing up, I don't think it really applies here. Destructive, maybe. Self-destructive? No.

Re:Dumb.

[zurmikopa]

More of an other-creative act, really.

Re:Dumb.

[Mr2001]

Sex for pre-teens and early teens is absolutely self destructive. They don't fully appreciate the consequences of their actions, and the result many times is an early pregnancy, and with it for the girls, the stigma of being a young mother or the slut who had the abortion.

I'm so sick of this pseudo-argument. The consequences of sex (mainly pregnancy and disease) just aren't that hard to grasp, and there's no doubt in my mind that any teenager can understand them. I certainly could at that age.

It isn't the kind of knowledge that can only be gained through years of experience; it's a collection of straightforward facts, the kind of knowledge that can be printed on a flyer and handed out on the street corner.

The solution is education. Every teenager should know (1) how pregnancy occurs, (2) why pregnancy at a young age is bad, (3) how disease is transmitted, (4) why STDs are bad, and (5) how to prevent pregnancy and the spread of disease. Anyone around the age of puberty who can't learn all that in, say, two weeks will never be able to understand it, and will probably suffer many other problems throughout their sad, clueless lives.

Of course, that education doesn't help much if teenagers aren't able to get it (e.g. their parents pull them out of sex education classes, or the school board implements an "abstinence only" curriculum with no real information), or if they can't use that knowledge to protect themselves (e.g. no access to condoms or birth control). So the other half of the solution is to support honest, factual sex education programs, as well as Planned Parenthood and/or other groups that make contraception available to anyone who needs it.

Re:Dumb.

[Greg_D]

You contradicted exactly not a fucking thing I said.

The consequences of smoking and drinking aren't that hard to grasp either, yet children tend to flock to both when given a chance. Hell, there are even ad campaigns, warnings on the side of boxes and bottles, and yearly in school education campaigns. It doesn't matter, because for a teenager, there's nothing better than being thought of as an adult. Who needs consequences when you're bulletproof?

Now, here's your very short clue bus rolling into town: it isn't a pseudo-argument to say that kids fucking as early teens is a thing that isn't good for society. It's a fact. No amount of sex education changes that fact. Kids aren't given adult responsibilities because they don't handle them very well. They tend to go for the immediate gratification instead of thinking things through. Hell, most adults don't handle adult responsibility very well, and it's only through seeing enough of their peers fuck up that they actually get it. There's a huge difference between knowing a bunch of facts and learning something.

STDs? Virgins aren't exactly a major carrier. Condoms? How are they gonna get em? Birth control? Yeah, little Susie at 14 is going to go ask her mom to take her to the doctor for a birth control prescription. Fucking? Hell yeah! Fucking feels good and makes little Billy feel like a man and gives him a small amount of emotional control over little Suzie. Who needs all those facts when you can play trailer trash roulette?

Re:Dumb.

[Mr2001]

The consequences of smoking and drinking aren't that hard to grasp either, yet children tend to flock to both when given a chance.

There are a lot more adult smokers and drinkers than there are minors, aren't there? People like nicotine and alcohol, not just children.

It doesn't matter, because for a teenager, there's nothing better than being thought of as an adult.

Heh. If someone wants to be thought of as an adult, what better way to get him to smoke or drink than to tell him smoking and drinking are only for adults?

There's a huge difference between knowing a bunch of facts and learning something.

And yet, in this case, knowing the facts is enough. If you know that you can have sex with very little risk just by putting on a condom, you'll do it. It worked for me.

Condoms? How are they gonna get em? Birth control? Yeah, little Susie at 14 is going to go ask her mom to take her to the doctor for a birth control prescription.

Thanks for making my point for me. If you want to reduce pregnancies, make condoms and birth control available to the teenagers who want them. They're going to try their damnedest to have sex anyway, and some of them are going to succeed no matter how their parents, teachers, or state legislators try to stop them.

Re:Dumb.

[Peeteriz]

In my country, 14 year old Susie has easy access to free condoms.
  In my country, 16 year old Susie has a granted right to get free access to a doctor and get birth control prescription in privacy, with her parents absolutely not getting access to any of her private medical information. (I am not sure about 14 year olds. There might or might not be such issues for them. However, 16 year olds have full rights of privacy and patient-doctor secrecy, and especially in teen STD/pregnancy cases we have full attention that this is really done this way)
  In my country, 14 year old low-income non-schooled boys and girls would get information about safe sex, demanding use of condoms, STD's, toll-free phones to arrange doctor's consultations and get birth-control items, etc through messages in radio and huge posters at bus stops in cheap housing areas.

  Who needs informed children when the 'feelings of the religious' could be harmed? USA has the worst teenage pregnancy and teenage STD problems of all the developed countries, and the the main difference between USA and others seems simply the information that's getting to the kids.

Re:Dumb.

[plague3106]

The consequences of smoking and drinking aren't that hard to grasp either, yet children tend to flock to both when given a chance.

Did you ever stop and think that the reason that is true is because everyone keeps telling them they cannot do those things? Stop making such a big deal about it, and it loses much of the appeal. Remember, kids usually want to act at being older than they are.

Re:Dumb.

[Kjella]

"When did our society define the age at which these acts should first occur?" Er... I'm pretty sure there are laws in most countries about the 'age of consent' - the minimum age at which sex is permitted.

I think all countries have an age of consent, it's just not always the way you think. Ours is 16, but there's an exception for those of "equal age and mental development" with no lower limit. The law is there to protect a 10yo from being exploited by adults - not to prevent them from exploring with other 10yos.

Re:Dumb.

[slungsolow]

I've always said "It's god's little loophole, just put it in the poophole".

Re:Dumb.

[Rimbo]

I'll pile on by adding that I grew up in the only area of the USA (at the time, may be different now) that had not implemented any sort of sex education for children in school. The argument against it, of course, is that the class might encourage young kids to have sex. (I know, I know.)

At the same time, it was also the area of the USA that had the highest rate of teen pregnancy.

Good ol' Amarillo. Good ol' too conservative for its own good Amarillo. Of course, now I live in California, and people out here think I'm some kind of sick fundamentalist nazi fascist...

Re:Dumb.

[unitron]

"...child baring used to be very dangerous..."

It still is. It'll get you busted for kiddie porn.

Child bearing remains potentially dangerous no matter what the age of the pregnant female.

Re:Dumb.

[sckeener]

On a related note....

State Marrriage Statutes or in a way Age of Consent by state.

Parents probably should look at that link to know when to lock up their kids (kidding)

Re:Dumb.

[kevin.fowler]

+1 Slow Clap


pun intended. yuck.

Re:Dumb.

[Azhrabi]

The primary self-destructive aspect, one which most non-psychologists seem to overlook, is the psychological damage. This is not to minimalize the other risks, but at least people are looking at them. Engaging in sex before the development of a stable sense of self is nearly always damaging to a child psyche. I have seen to many children who engaged in sex at a young age develop issues that needed therapy as a result ranging from relational issues and abusive partner selection to depression an in some cases swearing off sex altogether. Sometimes waiting years (post college or even into their 30s) before even beginning to reach out to establish an emotional connection on the level of a relationship with another person. The difficulty lies in knowing when is too early as there is no fixed age when this develops. Check any introduction to psychology or personality textbook for the relevant published research

Re:Dumb.

[Mr2001]

I have seen to many children who engaged in sex at a young age develop issues that needed therapy as a result ranging from relational issues and abusive partner selection to depression an in some cases swearing off sex altogether.

How many of them *willingly* engaged in sex at a young age? The studies I've seen of youths who engaged in sex with older partners have shown a strong correlation between willingness to engage in those acts and psychological adjustment at college age - the only ones with psychological issues were the ones who were forced into acts they didn't want.

Re:Dumb.

[RobertLTux]

This is just like craps
Roll those dice enough and you will come up with snake eyes.

Best thing to do is keep those dice in the bag unless you are old enough to pay your bet.

Beta.

[Janitha]

So I take its like placing a beta release in a production enviornment.

Re:Beta.

[st1d]

No that can't be a good comparison. Microsoft software usually takes far longer to reach beta than most of it's peers. :)

Re:Beta.

[Marko DeBeeste]

((Ducking)) More like a MasterBeta

News?

[Kickboy12]

I thought most of this was pretty obvious. Doesn't take a scientific study to figure these things out.

Re:News?

[nmb3000]

well, yeah. the earth is round ;^)

We beg to differ, and want you to keep your pseudoscience to yourselves.

I propose a Congressional Committee meet to investigate this myth. In addition, a $500M infusion to the Flat Earth Society will greatly aid the search for Truth. Remember, the terrorists want you to think the Earth is round.

Re:News?

[serutan]

those with a higher proportion of female friends appeared to be less likely to experience subsequent victimization.

In other words, teenage girls shoot, stab and beat you up less often than boys do.

/slaps forehead

Re:News?

[iggy_mon]

in light of these recent relevations (about the grant proposal) i am seriously considering joining your esteemed organization. please find enclosed a membership application and a bill for 30,000 dollars.

Re:News?

[GlassHeart]

This isn't off-topic. Without scientific research, everybody would "know" that the earth is flat. The fact that a particular research confirms what was "pretty obvious" doesn't make it useless.

Re:News?

[ultranova]

This isn't off-topic. Without scientific research, everybody would "know" that the earth is flat.

Well, anyone with bad enough eyesight that they can't see the horizon, anyway. A flat Earth doesn't have a horizon, only a curved one does.

Re:News?

[MrHanky]

I find it fascinating that people are modded up on Slashdot for basically stating that research into the seemingly obvious is unecessary. I guess my prejudice about Slashdot being a scientifically minded community was wrong.

Re:News?

[iggy_mon]

Well, anyone with bad enough eyesight that they can't see the horizon, anyway. A flat Earth doesn't have a horizon, only a curved one does.

IT ISN'T OFFTOPIC. things that are obvious to you with the (obviously) little education you've had have had to have been studied and written down for posterity.

before i get modded as flame bait for the "little education you've had" line consider that for many centuries just about everyone thought the earth was flat. you might have known that if you studied middle school history.

OF COURSE the earth revolves around the sun. Except this man, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo , risked his LIFE for something you just knew somehow.

Ever read in the bible where if you do this you will be unclean, you do that you will be unclean and you must remain apart from everyone for a certain amount of time for each different event? It was easier for God to give a few rules out than to try to EXPLAIN GERMS. but you knew about germs because anyone with a middle school science course saw bacteria in pond water. You weren't absent that day, were you?

Even the obvious things need written down to minimize redundency in research.

News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[gumpish]

Uhm, why is this appearing on a tech media blog?

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[EmperorKagato]

" Uhm, why is this appearing on a tech media blog?"

Because the way how mindsets mature and develop could affect learning which can affect interactions with technology.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[Expert Determination]

I think we ought to have more stories about flower arranging. The mental calm that this hobby can bring may enhance your ability to concentrate on difficult programming tasks and so is of the utmost interest to /. readers.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[javaxman]

Uhm, why is this appearing on a tech media blog?

I... don't... know... it's about as relevant as the "cell phones cook egg" hoax that was the previous story, although this one is at least not a hoax and possibly tangentally related to science as you might very broadly define the term to include statistics... so I guess it's an improvement?

Did April Fools come early for the slashdot admins this year? Should we still complain? Why am I asking you ?

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[Comatose51]

Because the summary mentioned the word "sex". Even though it means the same as gender given the context; but, there it is, "sex" and suddenly it's definitely "news for nerds".

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[utexaspunk]

What part of "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." implies that this site is just about tech? Nerds find all sorts of things interesting. I'm a nerd, and I find it interesting.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[eno2001]

True. But that's not because nerds hit puberty early. It's because nerds are either spindly, lanky beings, or... they're fat/pudgy doughboys. Me? I've always had a striking physique that resembles a cross between Adonis, Ah-nold Schwarzenegger and Kevin Sorbo. From birth. ;P

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[ZachPruckowski]

You must be new here. Median /.er age: 11-12.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[UserGoogol]

Slashdot is a "nerd" site, not a "tech" site. If you want pure tech, go to Ars Technica or whatever.

Nerds = social awkwardness + obsession in weird things + interest in science, math, and/or technology + an otherwise overintellectual attitude

This subject addresses science and social awkwardness. Also, it allows us to talk about twelve year old girls with prematurely huge breasts, which brings us to the Anime side of geekery. So this is a pretty nerdy subject, really.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[Shadyman]

Oh, is that what it is! I was under the impression that the median mental age was 11-12.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters?

[Vintermann]

It's science. Social science, true, but it may be "hard" science nonetheless. I certainly have a lot of respect for one researcher in this field: Dan Olweus at the University of Bergen. He approached bullying in "hard" scientific ways, and made an anti-bullying program. In a comparison with a dozen other similar programs which teachers thought would work, his was the only one with a statistically significant effect.

This being a nerd site, I think I'm not the only one who would have benefited from this program, if my school had been responsible enough to use it instead of the junk programs. So (good) social science matters. And is stuff. QED.

Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[MightyMait]

Read "Diet for a New America" by John Robbins for an interesting view on this (and all sorts of other diet-related issues). He contends that all the hormones we're feeding our dairy cattle as well as meat animals are contributing to earlier puberty (he was citing 8 year-olds developing breasts, etc.).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0915811812/103-44 66893-7535803?v=glance&n=283155

I wish I still had a copy of the facts sheet used to promote the book. Had all sorts of gems (like the fact that the average American house-cat eats more meat than the average El Salvadorean (IIRC)).

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[david_420]

Eight year olds, dude.

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[great om]

when my wife was a first grade teacher, she used to keep tampons in her drawer. Why? Because her first year teaching, 2 girls had their first period in her class --6-7 year olds

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[Dachannien]

Early onset of puberty may be related to diet in general, altogether separate from bovine hormones. It's known that obese children typically reach puberty earlier than children of normal weight.

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[st1d]

Might be the cattle hormones, but I lean more toward the theory that the children of younger parents tend to mature earlier than those of parents who were 30-40+, especially when it's compounded by multiple generations. That said, I think there are a lot more people with a cattle-like mindset today, which might have something to do with the aforementioned dairy hormones. :)

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[Prune]

No way. There's no plausible genetic mechanism for this to happen. The onus of proof is on you.

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[st1d]

Proof? On Slashdot?!! There must be a rip in the fabric of space-time.

As for proof, there isn't much research done in this area, at least directly relating to humans. I imagine it wouldn't make someone too popular (or more importantly attract funding) to tell people who likely had kids at a young age that having those kids at an earlier age not only opened them up to early-puberty troubles but also potentially shortened their overall lifespans. If it were (or was) done, you can bet various groups would jump on it to show it was biased against the poor, racist, etc. The little bit of research I found that makes these implications tends to originate form oganizations promoting various conservative ideals, religious or otherwise, and that would only distract from the debate.

That said, there is a lot of research done on the subject in a more general sense, namely with domestication of animals. They are specifically bred to reach puberty at an earlier age, in order to increase output. Some of this is done by increasing the quality of their diet, adding various nutrients and hormones so various organs develop faster, reducing stress, and a lot of money is spent on other means of finding ways to speed up the process. However, the primary means of lowering the age of puberty for breeding livestock is simply to mate younger maturing individuals with each other. There are limiting factors obviously, or we'd have animals hitting puberty shortly after fertilization by now.

So, to respond, the available research goes down your gullet every day, provided your personal biases allow for us still belonging in the animal kingdom to some degree. :)

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[ortholattice]

Had all sorts of gems (like the fact that the average American house-cat eats more meat than the average El Salvadorean (IIRC)).

Uh, dude, my (admittedly overweight) house-cat eats more meat than me. And I'm no vegetarian (nor an El Salvadorean (IIRC)).

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[HTL2001]

I'm too lazy to find any source right now, but I've also heard about it being tied to obesity - Basicly, your body thinks you have enough resources (ie body mass) to start puberty. Usually, you would not attain this until the "right" time. (This wasn't linked to VERY early puberty, just by a few years off average range)

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[Jeremi]

he was citing 8 year-olds developing breasts, etc.

Of course, this occurs in both male and female 8 year-olds, and is related to the overconsumption of sodas, Hostess products, and XBox...

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[Prune]

There are problems with your analogy. Farm animals reach breeding age faster than humans, so evolution happens faster. Second, humans do not face nearly the same selection pressure in that regard as in the case of artificial selection in breeding of farm animals. It would take tens of thousands of years on average for the kind of change you are describing; it is well established that there have been no significant genetic changes in humans during the timescale of civilization.
While there are other hereditary mechanisms such as those in the case of endogenous retroviruses, where infections during the lifetime can through reverse transcriptase activity affect the genomes of reproductive cells, thus bypassing the slow mechanisms of Darwinian evolution, I don't see how any of these types of processes would be able to implement the effect you propose.
By the way, I have no bias. Of course we are animals, and not the most successful ones either. By any standard evolutionary measure, such as total biomass, number of organisms, adaptability, and spread throughout the biosphere, bacteria win hands down in each case -- they are as simple as possible.

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[bhiestand]

when my wife was a first grade teacher, she used to keep tampons in her drawer. Why? Because her first year teaching, 2 girls had their first period in her class --6-7 year olds

Great, you just made my "if there's grass on the field, play ball!" saying look a lot worse.

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

It might be a hormonal effect caused by the reduced age of the parent, to whom the child is with all their lives. There may be an evolutionary mechanism to speed the development of young when the parent is itself relivitevly young.

I'm just throwing random rubbish out here by the way.

Re:Call Me a Tin-Foil Hatter but...

[jacquems]

Read "Diet for a New America" by John Robbins for an interesting view on this (and all sorts of other diet-related issues). He contends that all the hormones we're feeding our dairy cattle as well as meat animals are contributing to earlier puberty (he was citing 8 year-olds developing breasts, etc.).

I haven't read the book, but that sounds about right to me. For a few months in 2001, my husband and I lived in Austin, TX. I grew up in the USA, eating and drinking the same food as most Americans. He's lived in Finland his whole life, where the use of hormones and antibiotics in dairy cattle and meat animals is prohibited. In the few months that we were consuming dairy products (and meat, in my husband's case), he sprouted tiny hairs all over his back. Once we came back to Finland and stopped drinking American milk, they went away. We always make sure to buy organic dairy products whenever we visit the USA now.

I've also heard of lots of other factors being cited as contributing to early puberty in girls - everything from the phytoestrogens in soy products, to the prolonged absence of a father at home during childhood. Our bodies really do work in mysterious ways.

Especially for Girls...

[happy_place]

This would be especially so for girls, and all that comes along with puberty. Boys have a tendency to deflect physical changes more, because of the "cool" factor... (and the increased physical strength... ;) Of course it is physically hazardous to be a late-bloomer and a boy...

Re:Especially for Girls...

[Vegeta99]

From the article:

Overall, teens who experienced puberty early -- who perceived themselves as looking older than most of their peers -- had a much greater risk of being involved in a physical fight, having a knife or gun pulled on them, being jumped or otherwise being victimized than did other teens, Piquero and Haynie report. This was particularly true for boys, they write in this month's Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency.

Image problems

[Freaky Spook]

I think this is more a problem with girls, then it is with boys, when I was 9 a female friend of mine began puberty very early, she started developing breasts & began her period, for her the next couple of years were very traumatic as she was victimised by other girls & picked on by boys because of her funny bodily changes, entering high school she was extremly depressed & paranoid about herself.

In early high school, she had problems with her sexuality, related to her depression & self image she didn't care what she did & ended up becoming sexually active more out of lack of care, she had been taught about it but because of her traumatic time of enterting puberty early it had made her self-destructive.

Hitting puberty early can increase the risk of early exposure to sex, but the biggest factor is the lack of education provided to people, my friend had explained what had happened to her & that it was normal but it didn't help that nearly everybody else didn't have puberty explained properly for another few years, it was all a big joke but to my friend it was serious and if everyone had been educated a little earlier she may have not had the problems later in life.

Re:Image problems

[SB5]

Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a culture where puberty was celebrated... Maybe not celebrated to the point where those who are late bloomers start to have problems for being late bloomers though....

Then again, having sex being as taboo a subject as it is, probably doesn't help things.

Re:Image problems

[YrWrstNtmr]

and if everyone had been educated a little earlier she may have not had the problems later in life.

But then again..the ones NOT going through puberty yet might well just be a little confused. "Am I slow? Why isn't this happening to me yet?"

Re:Image problems

[baryon351]

Much the same thing happened to a friend of the family. When I was 20, she was 12 and 5'8". By 13 she was 5'11", had filled out and had the hips, breasts and walk of any awesome college 20 year old. Her peers weren't as much trouble as the constant attention from older guys, anywhere from 20 to 40 or more and in every kind of social situation. This is a kid who wasn't even a teenager a year before, and was propositioned daily. She looked older and more mature than me, yet still acted every bit the young kid because that's exactly what she was. What quiet 12/13 year old kid knows how to fend off a persistent 30 year old guy in a park who wants her phone number, and can't see or understand this is a kid he's talking to?

Socially, it's pretty screwed up just because her body advertised signals that didn't match the person.

Yeah...

[Spy der Mann]

Then the average Slashdotter must be feeling pretty safe right now.

Yeah, I'm sure that'll guard us against the evil that lurks within our mothers' basements!

The opposite is true also

[Illserve]

Hitting puberty early may not be a picnic, but hitting it late is no walk in the park either.

I refer all queries to the outstanding Tv series Freaks and Geeks.

Thank you

[ZachPruckowski]

So I take its like placing a beta release in a production enviornment.
Finally. Words the average slashdotter can understand! I mean, it's not like we were going to be able to make sense of this whole "puberty" thing, or this "sex" the article refers to.

Re:Thank you

[st1d]

Oh come on, the average Slashdotter is more than capable of Googling the definition of obscure words like those. It only took me a couple minutes and a similar number of websites before I developed a fair understanding of what they refer to, and the largest portion of that time was getting around the nannyware my parents put on this computer. You'd think they'd stop bugging me with that stuff, now that I'm over 30. :)

Re:Thank you

[Firehed]

Finally. Words the average slashdotter can understand! I mean, it's not like we were going to be able to make sense of this whole "puberty" thing, or this "sex" the article refers to.

You know... it's like that thing you do with your hand. Except there's more than one person involved. And by "person", the digital ones you're looking at during that time don't count. And puberty is like getting a new upgrade, except it's not your e-penis that gets bigger.

Oh nevermind, go back to Googling it.

There are some advantages

[Anonymous Coward]

Some advantages to being bigger than your peers are easy to document statistically. If you are born in certain months of the year, you are more likely to get into the NHL for instance. Why? The age limits for the childrens' hockey leagues cut off at a certain month. Some kids entering the league are almost a year older and bigger than others. The bigger, older kids perform better and get the breaks. They go on to the next league and the advantage holds all the way up to the professional league. So, if we assume that talent is evenly distributed, we have a case where an early advantage in size/maturity trumps talent.

It isn't uniformly that way. It depends on the nature of the filtering process. A counter example is kids who come into school already reading. Their advantage is gone by grade 4. Why? All kids pass into the next grade so there is no filtering process.

So, is early onset puberty an advantage? It depends (doesn't everything).

Re:There are some advantages

[PCM2]

It isn't uniformly that way. It depends on the nature of the filtering process. A counter example is kids who come into school already reading. Their advantage is gone by grade 4. Why? All kids pass into the next grade so there is no filtering process.

Care to provide a statistic for that? Seems counter-intuitive to me. If a kid comes into grade 1 already knowing how to read, that kid probably likes to read, which seems likely to be a lifelong advantage, education-wise.

Re:There are some advantages

[bdcrazy]

This happened to me in soccer and tennis from when i was like 8 til highschool. I was the youngest on most of my teams since the cutoff was middle of august for most of the rec leagues since my birthday was at the end of the month. This was both bad and good however, having to play against older and more experience people made me better and when i entered high school, i was always the oldest and did better than most.

Re:There are some advantages

[Kadin2048]

It isn't uniformly that way. It depends on the nature of the filtering process. A counter example is kids who come into school already reading. Their advantage is gone by grade 4. Why? All kids pass into the next grade so there is no filtering process.

Huh?

Care to explain that? Because my experience has been exactly the opposite. And I've heard a lot of stuff that would seem to suggest that children who learn to read earlier, tend to do better in school, and this success in elementary school translates on down the line.

This review study, Long-Term Effects of Early Childhood Programs on Cognitive and School Outcomes, says that of five studies reviewed "All five estimated that [early childhood reading education] had a large effect on the [high-school] graduation rate." (Only 3 of the 5 were statistically significant, the sample sizes of the other two were suggestive, but too small for significance.) That seems pretty good to me, although they do admit that children who read earlier often have adults who are more involved, etc., and that may contribute.

Anyway, I would argue that there definitely is a filtering effect in schools -- at least there used to be, anyway, back when they actually "held back" students who couldn't meet standards at the end of the year. I'm not sure that this is done in elementary schools as much as it once was, but you used to be able to pick out the under-performers pretty easily, because they were always the kids that were 2-3 years older than everybody else.

Putting the issue of academic standards aside for a second, there is an age cutoff for kindergarten in most school districts which is identical in effect to that you talked about there being in hockey. Usually in order to enter kindergarten, children have to be at least 4 years and 10 months old (so they have to have their fifth birthday before November of their kindergarten year); this probably varies from place to place. But the net effect is the same: there are some kids who will just miss that 'birthday cutoff' and end up being the oldest kids in their class, the year later. And there are some kids who will just barely sneak in, and be the youngest. Obviously, school is different from hockey, and there's (hopefully) less of an emphasis on physical size and strength, and kids mature at different speeds. But the result is the similar: in any given 'grade,' you're going to possibly get some kids who are a year older than each other. Even more, if you have a system that allows for the acceleration of gifted students and the holding back of underperforming ones.

I've never seen any studies relating birth month to later academic performance, that would show whether it's advantageous for parents to hold their kid back a year if they're near the birth-month cutoff for kindergarten. I suppose it might be tough to do, since places presumably have different standards. It would be interesting, though.

Re:There are some advantages

[st1d]

Conversely, I was taller than most kids my age, so I got shoved into basketball, despite never done more than take a couple shots at a basket before. Meanwhile, my peers had been playing for years (7th grade), so I was the tall guy, but couldn't shoot, move the ball well, etc. Certainly I would have improved, had I kept pushing to learn, but it wasn't something I chose, it was chosen for me. As a result, I had to deal with both the problems inherent with being a poor player, as well as those inherent with "being a quitter".
.
On the upside, I probably would've spent more time in sports, and less time honing my computer skills, and now I have a decent job, whereas I might have hoped to play professional basketball, and in the long term, likely have had those dreams crushed, which would've probably more damaging to my psyche in the long run.
.
So things seem to have turned out well, but I would have rather avoided it all in the first place.

Re:There are some advantages

[Vegeta99]

My advantage certainly wasn't gone... the last time (and the time they stopped, by the way) I took a reading test was 8th grade, and the results came back "13+"

College level. Now if you read before Kindergarten and then just STOP, maybe you'll lose it. But I doubt any kid that was reading at 3 would let that gift go.

Re:There are some advantages

[GotenXiao]

You kidding? When I left infants school (Year 2 in the UK, about age 5 or 6) my reading age was about 13 (read: I was on the actual novels while the rest of the class were reading books like "George and the Dog"). I maintained that gap, it seemed, all the way through to year 11. But there were still people struggling on words like "pessimistic", so yeah.

A good way to do it is to actually enjoy reading. *points to laden bookshelf*

But isn't late puberty worse?

[t0qer]

I started growing pubic hairs around 14, voice dropped around 18 and didn't really start getting tall or facial hair till around 20.

Being really small, geeky and awkward made me a target. I would have rather been 5'10" 200lbs at 12 with a 5 o-clock shadow than at 20, would have made Jr. High and High school so much easier.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[PCM2]

No it wouldn't. Seriously; there's a couple of those "beard-y" guys in every 8th grade class and they get made fun of, too.

Pretty much anything that makes you different will get you made fun of, actually.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[sasdrtx]

Best is when puberty happens while you're out of town sometime during summer vacation when you're 13. Anything else is suboptimal.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[burne]

I would have rather been 5'10" 200lbs at 12 with a 5 o-clock shadow than at 20, would have made Jr. High and High school so much easier.

No, it wouldn't. I'm 6'9", 273lbs, started early on puberty (and sex) and growing up still wasn't easy, despite being the tallest, broadest boy in the class. Extra points for the first to dig up a snide remark about being tall I haven't heard a gazillion times before. It's not about size.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[SenatorOrrinHatch]

Bench pressing 300 pounds and winning the state football championship generally will NOT lead to ridicule. Say what you want about Rumsfeld, he understands conflict when he says
Weakness is a provocation.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[ThousandStars]

Pretty much anything that makes you different will get you made fun of, actually.

Since there is no absolute normal, it sounds like your argument applies to everyone -- to be alive and exist with others means that one will be teased, and probably tease others too.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[LordRPI]

Unfortunately, early puberties can also lead to stunted growth

I was a bit of a late bloomer myself and I do remember students in lower grades reaching puberty before me which was quite embarassing and frustrating, especially on the sports field. The most notable difference is the amount of strength that one gains having been through puberty - I played varsity Lacrosse during my high school days and paying with sexually mature kids was like going up against a bulldozer. Having now graduated from college and attending reunions, it's clear that the males who went through puberty early and were the stars on the field are now small little runts. The few of us that bloomed late are much taller and stronger now.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[NuGeo]

I went through puberty at a very young age. I started getting pimples at age 10 (4th grade). They got even worse at 11, and I HAD to shave at 12. It's not like it was a little peach fuzz hair. No, it was pretty thick, and it was blonde colored. If I didn't shave I got made fun of. It was an absolute nightmare for me. I was so uncomfortable with myself. I couldn't express my sexual urges with anyone. None of my friends could relate at all. I'm also a son to a single mother. She was no help either. I never cared about sports. At all. Maybe I would have enjoyed an early puberty if that had been the case, but I doubt it. Today I am 20 and I have a really bad case of depression. It's only been treated recently. I've had it since I was 14. My education went to shit and I'm a social disaster. I'm still a virgin, by the way. Early puberty was no picnic for me.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[PCM2]

Since there is no absolute normal, it sounds like your argument applies to everyone -- to be alive and exist with others means that one will be teased, and probably tease others too.

You got it. Is that not your experience? It sure is mine. Contrary to the poster below, even big meatheads who win the state football championship get made fun of (maybe just not to their faces).

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[Jeremi]

Since there is no absolute normal, it sounds like your argument applies to everyone -- to be alive and exist with others means that one will be teased, and probably tease others too

"If you want a picture of Junior High, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for 36 months" -- George Orwell

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[Jeremi]

My education went to shit and I'm a social disaster. I'm still a virgin, by the way.

Son, you've come to the right place.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[grammar fascist]

Since there is no absolute normal, it sounds like your argument applies to everyone...

Ever hear of distributions and thresholds?

Seriously, you're being silly.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[Inda]

What's the weather like up there?!?!?

I was always taller than everyone else. Then I stopped growing at around 16. Now I'm only an average 6 foot (5'11.75). Being taller than everyone else was great.

Being confident kept all the childhood nastiness away. No, that's a lie. I still had it all directed my way just like the majority of other people. Being confident let it all slide away like water off a duck's back.

'Taking the piss' is all about finding something that upsets someone. If people can see you're upset after being called a Twat then that's where the focus of piss-taking is going to be. Whether you're Twat or not; get upset by it and people will call you a Twat all day long.

I always found "what's the weather like up there?" to be a friendly gesture and a little droll.

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[cbciv]

I would have rather been 5'10" 200lbs at 12 with a 5 o-clock shadow than at 20, would have made Jr. High and High school so much easier.

No, it wouldn't. I'm 6'9", 273lbs, started early on puberty (and sex) and growing up still wasn't easy, despite being the tallest, broadest boy in the class. Extra points for the first to dig up a snide remark about being tall I haven't heard a gazillion times before. It's not about size.

Really? How many times did you get your ass kicked because you were unusually large?

Re:But isn't late puberty worse?

[cerberusss]

You should've done a few lessons of Judo and boxing. I don't like sports either, but I have the discipline to last about 15 lessons. Even those 15 make a difference in self-confidence.

There's lots of reasons for this

[PCM2]

There are all sorts of reasons for early puberty in women. One study found that black girls seemed to be hitting puberty earlier at a much more rapid rate than white girls. Investigation revealed that some of the hair care products commonly used to straighten black girls' hair were responsible, believe it or not. The chemicals in those products, when combined with other environmental factors, would create synthetic estrogens in the girls' bloodstreams, causing them to begin to develop breasts and pubic hair at really young ages (like 5). When the use of the products was discontinued, the breast tissue would disappear and the pubic hair fell out.

Interesting anecdote, however it's actually slightly offtopic. If you check TFA it's actually mostly talking about boys. The victimization in this case is not the rape (or date rape) that you assume. It's about teens getting beaten up, or stabbed in knife fights, etc.

Makes sense, if you think about it. Men, particularly young-ish men, perceive similarly-aged men as rivals, especially where women are present. If you believe a rival is younger than you, you might figure "he's just a little punk" and use your apparent seniority to browbeat him into backing down. If you think he's your same age, on the other hand, you might decide that a more drastic form of "correction" is necessary. At the same time, he might also tend to react less predictably -- being young, he feels like he has more to prove. The whole situation escalates much more rapidly than a confrontation between true peers and quickly turns to violence.

According to TFA though, the main factor that helps early puberty boys avoid this phenomenon is having a lot of female friends.

Re:There's lots of reasons for this

[HungWeiLo]

Interesting - haven't heard the hair care products theory before.

Another theory I've heard is that because of the high rate of single parenting in the U.S., girls in single-parent households are more likely to be exposed to males who are not related by blood. Apparently, this exposure to males not related by blood increases the rate of puberty. Not sure how much BS this is, but nonetheless it's interesting.

Re:There's lots of reasons for this

[evilviper]

According to TFA though, the main factor that helps early puberty boys avoid this phenomenon is having a lot of female friends.

Yes, either:

A) Non-stop sex
or
B) Being homosexual

will solve this problem completely...

Re:There's lots of reasons for this

[PCM2]

Haha ... I'm with you there dude, I was actually going to make a crack about the gay guy having all the female friends too.

Only then I realized that being gay in high school was never a real good way to avoid getting beat up. Or being gay and walking down the street in a lot of cities in America, for that matter. :-\

Re:There's lots of reasons for this

[drgonzo59]

Interesting point about the hair products. I also would probably believe it has something to do with the bovine growth hormones and also with other environmental factors. Actually, it might turn out that it is more than one factor that would be responsible, so there might be more than one chemical that would trigger the onset of puberty, and they either have to work together (i.e. only children that use hair straightening products _and_ have been consuming large quantities of dairy and meat with the BGH will get an early onset) or it is that either one will do it.

Besides the environmental factors I think there are also some social factors. I do believe there is a mind-body connection and if children today are bombarded with sexual imagery and girls as young as 10 are forced by peers and media to wear sexy (read slutty) clothes and behave in a flirting ways with boys, I think they will eventually start to hit puberty much earlier. The body will "accomodate" to the mind.

In other words, some will say that girls dress and behave in a sexual manner at an early age becuase they have hit puberty but it could also go the other way.

I have noticed this difference in average age of puberty firsthand. I grew up in a another country (Russia) and came here to the States when I was 15. At home most girls and guys my age had hit puberty at a much later date than my peers in the States. Quite interesting. Girls, back in my old country would not be allowed to wear make-up or dress slutty at school, were more modest and all an all didn't have sex as much as the girls and guys of the same age from US. If the social factors are responsible, then the average age of puberty during the extremely inhibited Victorian times should be much higher, and that is the case: the average age of puberty for girls back then was 16, and now it is more like 11 -- all within 160 years.

I can think of an experiment that would allow girls from another country to use the hair products and food from US but still live where they live. I wonder what would happen? It would be an extremely un-ethical experiment so it would never be done.

Re:There's lots of reasons for this

[grammar fascist]

Or being gay and walking down the street in a lot of cities in America, for that matter. :-\

Why? Aren't gay people, you know, just like you and me only with a different preference? How would anybody know unless a gay person wore a sign or shouted it out to everyone around him?

I just know some moderator is going to take this literally.

Re:There's lots of reasons for this

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

How would anybody know unless a gay person wore a sign or shouted it out to everyone around him?

They would see him holding hands with his partner, DUH!!

Re:There's lots of reasons for this

[dfghjk]

So the problem is that the gay person isn't wearing the sign proclaiming his heterosexuality like everyone else? The job of every gay person is to fit in so that no straight people feel challenged to be tolerant?

Gays are just like everyone else in that everyone is different. Just because a specific gay person is easily identifiable doesn't mean it's his problem. There seems to be no problem with straight people acting "obviously straight" after all, so why can't a gay person act obviously gay? Gays are no more obligated to hide their sexuality than straights are.

Re:There's lots of reasons for this

[Alphtoo]

Well yes, but down here in the Southland if you are A) having non-stop sex, a large dude will probably get jealous and kick your ass, and if you are B) homosexual, some large dude will likely take you apart to figure out why.

Re:My torpedos made me do it!

[LadyVirharper]

You're obviously not a girl. Girls are fucking vicious to anyone they percieve as different, especially at the pre-teen and early teen middle-school stage, when they're still young enough to be casually cruel and "not know" (some do, some don't) they're out of line, but old enough to have the knowledge to think up things that really cut.

I know, I am a girl, I went through it all. :p High school wasn't hell, people became somewhat civilized (in a small sort of way) when the top grade was composed of 18 year olds instead of 13/14 year olds, but middle school was.

WTF

[Turn-X Alphonse]

So in other words wanting to get laid makes you get rejected earlier.. and makes you do all the things everyone does when they hit puberty..

I know people who act like children even in their 30s and 10 year olds who act like adults. Puberty early wouldn't do anything to the later type, the first type on the other hand still act like children after hitting it.. so no, early puberty doesn't "damage you", being too immature to handle it damages you.

What the article overlooked

[serutan]

They failed to mention that teenagers who reach puberty early are less likely to know Javascript or how to use two cellphones to cook an egg.

Re:What the article overlooked

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting as anonymous for a reason.

I disagree with you. Even though this is just humour, I feel compelled to tell you how I feel.

I am a male teen. Age of 17 and damn proud of my youth. I believe I hit puberty fairly early age. I believe it was around 11 yeas of age.

As I began to develop, I found myself in more of a "hide in the shadows" state of mind. I took a keen interest in computers, and more importantly, the internet and its luxuries[HTML, JavaScript, etc.]

I also have had 4 sexual partners. All of which have been atleast 1 year older than I was at the time. They have never been a "one night stand" or anything, as I find myself more interested in feeling that connection with a female via a close relationship.

I've been living on my own since ~3 months after I turned 16. I have been living with my current girlfriend since last October. I know it may not be the 100% absolute for sure thing, as I am still young. But I find that because I matured earlier, that I am able to handle situations much more efficiently and in a more mature mannour than anyone else in my age group that I grew up with.

I have also been a web developer since I was 11 years of age. I use it to make a living now, and I feel I am doing damn good.

*thumbs up*

Re:My torpedos made me do it!

[Turn-X Alphonse]

This is very true. Guys might be able to damage the body, but girls damage the mind. They also tend to have a natural pack nature where they'll viciously attack anyone seen as remotely different.. and who hasn't heard the old saying "Hell has no fury like a woman scorned". Never a truer word has been said.

It's more about differences

[KeiichiMorisato]

I think the main issue is once a person hits puberty, they become different, and as many studies and observations have shown, kids (even adults), like to make fun of people who are different than their own social circle.

In related news...

[TriZz]

It has been proven that hitting puberty early also helps to keep Michael Jackson from trying to befriend you. The long term effects of this are the lack of court appearances and ruined childhood.

Whatever's in the milk/meat - keep consuming it!!

Re:In related news...

[st1d]

Not to mention, less money for college...

Re:My torpedos made me do it!

[truckaxle]

Scorned Women sure does bite back.

Hair care products theory

[PCM2]

Here's a link to an article about the hair care products. It says the research is not conclusive, but rather suspicious. Apparently about half of all black girls in the United States start developing secondary sex characteristics before age 8 (yikes! didn't know that), while the rate is much lower for black girls in other parts of the world (e.g. Africa).

Sorry, I couldn't resist

[kadathseeker]

In Soviet Russia, pubery hits you!

Ow. Man, if the older kids weren't enough, even nature's against you.

Seriously though, this is llllllllaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeee. Not tech, not interesting, obvious to anyone who gives it a moment's though, not conclusive or precise, and pointless money grabbing "research" by staticians instead of docs or shrinks specializing in child development. This is /., not a tabloid. We have standards and expectations of our staff of expert editors - not administators, heavens no, this is a very fine and respected company with a reputation of outstanding journalism.

Okay, that was sarcastic, if I didn't love /. I'd have a life. That doesn't mean I don't think it could improve either.

Re:Sorry, I couldn't resist

[dr.badass]

if I didn't love /. I'd have a life. That doesn't mean I don't think it could improve either.

Get out. Get out now. Get out while you still can. It doesn't get better, it just gets more users, and they're always still in high school.

Eddie Izzard

[mr100percent]

"...So you're just noticing members of the sex: "Girls girls, ooo". Naturally you want to look your best, and God says "No! You will look the worst you've ever looked in your life!""

Re:Eddie Izzard

[kadathseeker]

It's because in noticing girls, you've done some very bad things. Things kittens will die for. God hates you because you touch yourself at night. Oh, if only you hadn't been corrupted by that damned Hot Coffee or interweb thingy. An eternity in hell, on both Earth and Hell, all for a few bikini pics? I hope you are happy, don't say I didn't warn you. May FSM have mercy on your geeky soul. Damn kids.

Um, no duh?

[Khaed]

Any big or noticable difference is going to cause problems with a bunch of kids. They have a herd mind a lot of the time. This seems like a no brainer: Puberty changes a whole beowulf cluster of things about you, and if you're the first in your peer group, then there's a significant chance that the immaturity and herd-mindedness will cause you problems. It has nothing to do with society or anything else, just peer pressure and the attitude of kids/teens.

Re:Um, no duh?

[st1d]

Luckily, once you grow up...
.
Um, never mind. :)

Re:My torpedos made me do it!

[vodkamattvt]

I believe it. Im a guy, and I still find most girls absolutely vicious .. and Im 23! Just watching how a social group of girls works is like watching a bunch of lions fighting over some invisible carcass. Its brutal. When asked if girls can ever really be friends with each other, a good portion will say, "No" because they are constantly in some kind of competition.

What do you mean early?!?!?

[Belial6]

"The current findings are based on data from nearly 7,000, 11- to 15-year-olds from 132 schools across the country."

Given that in many societies, you became an adult at 13. We can assume this happened because that is historically the age that MOST people have gone through puberty. That being the case, how can you call 11 "early". 8, yes is early, but not unheard of. 11 doesn't even count. The correct way of putting it would be that kids who are first in their peer group to hit puberty..yada..yada..yada. Of course the only two ways to prevent anyone from being first is to either do something that prevents puberty all together, (i.e. kill them first, or severe hormon treatments) or to prevent purberty medically long enought to dose all kids at the last day of the 6th grade, so they all come back in the 7th, having already hit puberty together.

I will kill anyone that tries either one on my kid.

Honestly, most of the problems these kids have (or at least enough to make the statistics show as they do) have to do with parents inability to accept that their child is growing up. It's so much easier to deny that your 11 year old is now an adult when all of the other kids in their class are still children.

Re:What do you mean early?!?!?

[Kadin2048]

We can assume this happened because that is historically the age that MOST people have gone through puberty.

Except that would be an incorrect assumption. It was historically not uncommon for women to start having periods as late as 15 or 16. In 1830, it was approximately 15.5, depending on the population sampled. Even as recently as 1928, the average (c=10,000) age at menarche was 13.9 years. Today, it's around 12.6. (See various studies here.) That seems like a fairly significant decline to me.

This earlier onset is usually chalked up to improved nutrition, but the overall conclusion -- that traditional societies had women becoming fertile much later in life than they are today -- remains true. Women were often considered adults and/or married before they started menstruating and finished puberty. This long transitional time that we've created in a person's teenage years, when they aren't really an adult but have long since become one biologically, did not exist until fairly recently.

You're a Tin-Foil Hatter

[spamshaft9000]

Yes, the average age of puberty is lower today than it was centuries ago. But it reached its current level in North America about 40 years ago, before they started pumping cattle full of hormones. The best guess is that earlier maturation isn't due to the hormones in beef, but to the beef itself. With better nutrition children grow taller and mature earlier.

Giving cattle hormones may be a Bad Thing, but not for this reason.

Re:You're a Tin-Foil Hatter

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Yes, the average age of puberty is lower today than it was centuries ago.

But where's the proof of this? How do we know that medieval physicians applied the same critera that we do? They may have been influenced by cultural factors: "There' no way that child has hit puberty".

We know that young men gained citizenship at ludicrously early ages in ancient societies. Perhaps this is a better indicator.

Which is exactly what TFA said

[ynotds]

Apparently based only on the /. summary, a poster concluded:

(...) so no, early puberty doesn't "damage you", being too immature to handle it damages you.

while TFA already said exactly that:

Socializing with older people "places these kids in difficult situations that they may not be cognitively able to handle," Piquero said, explaining that, although a 13-year-old may start hanging out with a 16-year-old, he or she "may not be at the 16-year-old level yet."

Still there was a lot worse from all those who wrongly jumped to the conclusion that it was a particular problem for girls and (consequent?) moderations declaring the worthlessness and irrelevance of such research.

Clearly such people got nowhere near seeing that the evidence was weakest for whites, for two-parent families and for those who spent more time with girls, which may well bring the count to three out of four for relevance to /. Interestingly at least the CNN report makes no mention of gays who might really need to be factored out of any data on victimisation before you placed too much weight on its conclusions.

And it is also unfortunate for this and many similar studies that we don't have historical data and rarely cross cultural data, so we don't have anything beyond our vivid imaginations to help us decide whether the decline of parenting skills (through loss of tradition and lack of practice as families nucleate ever smaller) or the prevailing paranoia about children's social contacts might be other contributing factors.

Bull. I hit puberty late. Here are my observations

[5n3ak3rp1mp]

I was always below average in height relative to my male peers growing up. I got pubes late, I didn't have to shave until I was 17, my voice changed late, women noticed me late, guys picked on me... basically, my testosterone kicked in way later than it might have ideally and it was a real pain in the ass for me, actually. I didn't date until after high school and I didn't have sex until 21. I was surprised when women finally started noticing me because I had gotten to the point where I assumed I would stay mostly invisible.

The only yang to that yin that I can come up with is that I'm now 6'2", the guy who I was always jealous of who got laid at 12 is now 30 with a nice beer gut and half bald (and looks 38), and I have to sort of beat off the women now. I'm 33 and everyone says I look 26. At my 10 year reunion I was like the skinniest guy there. So maybe it's related to an aging-speed thing. Both my sister and I absolutely look younger than our peers now (but some of that might have to do with me living the bachelor life and trying to look good).

But damn, the cost was high. I tried playing sports with neighborhood kids growing up but invariably I would get bloodied up, which then turned me off from team sports completely (I played tennis and rode my bike instead). I'm a really social guy now (and some team sports are OK) but from 7th-10th grade I was so shellshocked that I barely had a friend and spent most of my time indoors hacking away on a computer (Microsoft Basic on a Mac Plus, lol) with my mom yelling at me to go outside (caught between a rock and a hard place).

So perhaps being any kind of outlier is more painful in general.

It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[lenski]

I returned to my parents' place for a weekend visit one year, and next to my sister... Behold! A 6' 2" real live woman! (I was a 21 year old geek and all too aware that are too few girls my size, this could be good...) So I asked my mother who the babysitter was, and was she single? Replied my dear mum, "Don't get any ideas. Period. You will make no remarks, no comments, nothing. You got it?" Oh why, says I...

"She is 12 years old, is a friend of your sister's and she already has enough trouble."

I saw a beautiful woman. She was no such thing: A 12-year old girl, and had already been the target of multiple, completely inappropriate advances by men and boys. She and my sister remained friends for several years, and by the time she was in college, she had already been hurt in too many ways.

These studies of early puberty are not stupid, they are needed in the context of a society that fails to protect its children.

Re:It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[Xerxus]

I will need photographic evidence...

for my research...

your sister too...

Re:It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[Lord_Dweomer]

I know what you're talking about. I'm 22. When I was 20, I worked at a camp, and one of the other counselors was 15. I didn't realize this right away because not only did she LOOK my age...in every way...she ACTED like it. She was more mature than most of my female peers, down to earth, etc. I was about to ask her out, and found out she was 15. Part of me thought "hey, who cares if she's 15 if she looks and more importantly acts like she's 20". But then I realized "its still illegal, and you don't know how she'll change". And she did have moments where the age was clearly noticeable. Sometimes you just act your age, no matter how mature you think you are.

Its funny though...if I were 30 and she were 25 nobody would think anything of it.

Re:It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[st1d]

Yep, been there too. On the flipside, in school I had the opposite situation happen. I was 15, and it was the first day of school. We're all settling into our seats as the bell rings, and this one new girl is standing near one of the empty desks, and says "okay everybody, let's get in our seats". Being the brilliant teenage guy that I was, I said to a guy next to me, loud enough that she'd hear, "who's that bitch think she is?"
.
She proceeded to introduce herself as our new chemistry teacher... :(
.

Re:It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[WCLPeter]

I know how you feel. I'm 32 and recently went through the same thing.

Like your stereotypical geek, when I'm around women I find attractive I tend to get nervous, timid and utterly pathetic. I am simply incapable of talking to them without making myself sound like a complete and total moron. So I don't think it's much of a shock that I haven't dated much, and when I do it's usually well intentioned friends who try to set me up on blind dates that never end well.

That doesn't stop me from looking because once in a long while I will meet a woman whom I find irresistible yet am still able to be completely comfortable and full of confidence around. It really doesn't happen that often (8 times in fifteen years), but when it does it's great. Unfortunately I haven't met one yet that wasn't already in a strong committed relationship. Well that is until I met this girl.

It was just under two years ago when I was 30. I decided to go to this Japanese restaurant I'd read good things about. When I walked in, there she was and almost right away I was taken with her. Since I used to work in a restaurant, I sympathize with what they go through so I tend to be relaxed and friendly with the staff. It paid off, because she spent a lot of time at my table. We got along so well, I decided to go back the next week. Every Thursday over the next few weeks I got to know her better as she spent a fair bit of time at my table. She's very independent and knows what she wants out of life, working two jobs along with studying hard to get it; she's strong willed, highly intelligent, smart, and has real genuine passion towards her interests and learning new ones.

Not only did she appear to be into me, the best part was, not once throughout the entire six weeks (I gave her ample opportunity) I spent getting to know her did she mention a boyfriend. I just simply couldn't believe my luck. My family had wanted to see this girl I'd been raving about, (the food is *very* good there, so it wasn't a stretch to take them in) they all got along extremely well and absolutely adored her.

I had finally worked up the courage and was *this* close to asking her out when she dropped the bomb. You see, the whole time I'd been getting to know her I was certain she was in her early to mid twenties. She was way too mature and together in the head to be anything but. She looked early twenties, she acted early twenties and was mature like early twenties. I was convinced she was early twenties, my family was convinced she was early twenties and while that's normally a bit younger than what I go for, I was convinced it could work and that she was worth the effort.

I never once thought to ask how old she was. Nothing she said or did the whole time I'd spent getting to know her pointed to or could have prepared me for her real age. I'm think she knew the embarrassment it would cause me if I asked her out and she had to turn me down, so she worked it into the conversation and told me how old she was.

17

Not a clue. My family didn't guess, my sister who can spot a fake ID carrying teeny-bopper a 100 yards away (she used to work in a group home, lots of experience) didn't guess. But most importantly I didn't guess and I was devastated. Here was a girl that was utterly perfect for me in just about every way I could think of and she was 13 years my junior. I could have probably pushed for it, I could tell she liked me, but it just wouldn't have been right to press for it. No matter how much I wanted it to happen, I couldn't be that selfish guy who would try to force her into an adult relationship that would deny her her "best years" (I didn't do any fun stuff or grow as a person until my late teens early twenties.).

So I did the only thing I could. I let it go.

I still go there (the food *is* good) but I usually avoid her shift. No sense picking at it needlessly. Although, every once in a while she or I will change our day. We're always happy to see one another and it gives us time to

Re:It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[jacquems]

Happened to me too. In the grand scheme of things, I don't even think I hit puberty all that early, but I was one of the first in my class to mature. Suddenly, I was getting attention from the opposite sex that I was not the slightest bit prepared to deal with. It made me so uncomfortable that I became anorexic because I was desperate to stop maturing and keep my little girl body. I didn't understand what was happening to me, and I didn't have anybody to help guide me through it.

I also think that in our modern, technological society, we take our bodies for granted and don't give much thought to how they work. We tend to forget how much our biology influences our actions (often in ways that are not obvious). I recently got a demonstration of this when I started a new job. I noticed that I felt very competitive with the other women in the office. At the same time, I found myself subconsciously evaluating the attractiveness of the men around me. When I spent a few days distracted by what seemed to me like the intoxicating scent a visiting employee's cologne, I started wondering what on earth was happening to me. It was like going through puberty all over again. Then it finally dawned on me: my daughter weaned last summer, and my body was telling me it was time to look for a mate and have another baby. I was basically a victim of my own hormones.

So yes, I do think this is an appropriate topic for /. Biology is a science after all, and human biology in particular is an area that is not as widely understood as it could be.

Re:It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I saw a beautiful woman. She was no such thing: A 12-year old girl, and had already been the target of multiple, completely inappropriate advances by men and boys.

A pity she never realised that it only takes a few makeup tricks and the right clothes to make you look either years younger or years older.

If she was a 12 year old, who looked like a 20 year old, then she was only exaserbating the problem by walking around in a 20 year olds apparel.

Re:It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[smellsofbikes]

My gf's 13 years younger than me. It's worked well for almost 3 years now. But she's clearly not done growing, emotionally: she's a kid in some ways. It has its problems. And there's social pressure against it. It's not like people whisper and point: I look a lot younger than I am and she looks older than she is. But when people find out they usually react by saying a lot of negative things. My grandparents -- both sets -- had about the same age difference, but for whatever reason it was completely acceptable in the 1920's, and my grandmother has said (when she thought I wasn't in hearing range) that she doesn't see how anyone could date someone that much younger, which kind of amuses/confuses me.

Re:It happened to a friend of my sister's...

[TheOrquithVagrant]

You missed the part about her being 6'2", right? I don't think there's a hell of a lot of "little girl" clothes around for 6'2" women. I barely even know any adult women that height.

A study just like modern medicine -- misguided

[Agram]

It is interesting to see how much energy and time modern research (whether that be humanities or sciences) spends on studying symptoms and/or repercussions, without too much concern over the actual cause. Just like the modern medicine which is still predominantly a cut'n'paste job (think: a butcher with a pain-numbing injection), this study focuses on the repercussions of something that may very well be preventable.

Many studies have shown that due to the fact that all the hormones which are fed to the plants and animals to bolster yield, do end-up in the final produce/meat/milk/whatever we consume, children are now entering into puberty a lot earlier. No one as of yet knows the repercussions of this trend, but it sure doesn't sound very healthy...

I guess what I am trying to get at is that we should perhaps begin addressing the core problems rather than treating symptoms. Then again, for pharmaceutical companies the current situation sure does look a lot more profitable...

Exercise tends to delay puberty

[5pp000]

Can't quote a reference, but I have read somewhere that getting lots of exercise tends to delay the onset of puberty, at least in girls.

Maybe this will wake up some parents. A lot of kids these days get too little exercise anyway.

Re:Exercise tends to delay puberty

[Anonymous Coward]

That's so true. My son eats junk food and hardly ever exercises. He's 8 years old and already has larger breasts than my wife!

(vc: collagen.)

Brings a whole new meaning to...

[SonicSpike]

..."tastes like chicken!" ;-)

Re:My torpedos made me do it!

[st1d]

I believe it, too. I've also noticed that that viciousness also tends to be directed from a group a girls towards any other girls who are perceived to have an [percieved] advantage of one sort or another. Nothing is more bloody (from a mental standpoint, at least) than a pretty woman walking into a room full of ugly, overweight women, especially if there are men in the equation. The claws that come out make anything us guys do look pretty tame in comparison.

And if my memory is correct, while everybody enjoyed a good fight between guys in school, the fights between girls were the more violent ones. We generally ended up with a bloody nose or a few bruises, while the girls usually ended up with less hair and scratches on their faces. Our wounds were badges, theirs were meant to scar and embarrass.

Whoever decided women were the fairer sex never saw one girl put her foot on another girls shoulder and rip out two fistfuls of hair, that's for sure!

Did you read your links?

[Belial6]

Did you read the page you linked to? It is loaded with a ton of data that shows 13 has in fact been the historic avarge for starting menstration in girls. The few examples that showed it as being higher were countered on the same page as being improperly conducted studies. I know that some people really want the age of adulthood to be greater than it is and always has been, but please, if your going to link to data, link to something that supports your theory.

Middle school

[typical]

Ah, yes. Middle school. The point where everyone is busy throwing off authority but still has absolutely no idea how to get along with anyone else at all.

The least pleasant years of K-12, definitely.

Early? Late? What's the difference?

[Quinn_Inuit]

So hitting puberty early makes other kids go after you, and hitting it late makes them go after you. Maybe the study should have been entitled "Children Still Being Mean To Anyone Who Is In Any Way Different."

Re:Connectivity effect?

[st1d]

Both, IMHO. I think the increase in noise may have some effect on the number of incidents, in all areas that this might apply to, such as violence, drug use, etc. The increased noise, and perceived increase in numbers may lead certain members of society to see the perceived increase as "the new normal", and transfer that into something like "permission" for their own behavior. The obvious example is Columbine, and the sudden "explosion" of kids knocking off their peers and teachers. Another might be any given riot, where people who might not normally loot or commit arson see others do it on TV, and race out of the house to "join in on the fun".
.
I think this has always been so, at least during each "jump" in communication, though in earlier times the general population might not have had the ability to perceive it, simply because they didn't have access to the news, while wealthier individuals might have shared the same thoughts, seeing "society's downfall" simply because they had access to a larger view of world events. Who knows, maybe that's the primary driver behind some wealthy individuals, past and present, to see less wealthy members of society as inferior. While they sit in their fine abodes, "the masses" are rampaging the streets, killing and stealing from each other at the drop of a hat.
.
I wouldn't mind seeing a good comparison between the rise of TV (and worldwide news) over the years, and the a number of measures of violence and other social problems, with pinpoint notations of various widely reported events. From a guess, I think we'd see a rise in "social ills" as news relating to them became more widespread (and hyped), then it reaches a point where it tops out, then lessens, simply due to oversaturation, where it either isn't "news" anymore, or people begin to actively seek out "good news", because the amount of bad news reaches a point where it's too disturbing for most people to accept. At that point, society may even seek to bury bad news, aka the Victorian Age after 100+ years of revolutions around europe and the rest of the world.
.
These are all just a guess, but sometimes I think I should get paid for this stuff, especially after seeing someone else get paid to figure out that early puberty might lead to problems... :)

Re:Pre-vert for life

[st1d]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm pretty sure I could have gone the rest of my life without knowing any of what you just wrote. :)

Re:Puberty Love

[st1d]

Oh, come on, be nice. That episode probably just brought back memories of his own youth.

Uh, come to think of it, if the chili part did, maybe none of us should tease him... :)

Obligatory South Park Quote

[ares284]

Stan: But Chef, how old should you be before you're ready for sex?
Chef: Well children, the correct age to start having sex is.... seventeen
Kyle's Mom: Seventeen and in love, right?
Chef: No, just seventeen.
Kyle's Dad: But what if you're not ready at seventeen?
Chef: At seventeen, you're ready.

-Ares

Re:Obligatory South Park Quote

[frpdm817]

true... Chef is right. :)
Chef is always right

Re:Why is this happening..?

[st1d]

Yeah, but what about the guys? :)

Re:Bull. I hit puberty late. Here are my observati

[freeweed]

I didn't have to shave until I was 17

If you were having to shave at 17, trust me, you didn't develop late. Many guys are well into their 20s before they have to shave on a regular basis.

Congrats on the rest though, I agree - aging slowly IS a blessing in disguise :)

Captain Obvious

[StarKruzr]

If you're just under or around 14 or 15, you're probably thinking "OMIGOD I'M GONNA GET LAID!"

Re:Captain Obvious

[saudadelinux]

I'm 36, and I'd still think that, if it happened :(

Um?

[TheMadWeaz]

Isn't one of the causes of early puberty increased trama and conflict in the household? I think I remember that from my Human Growth and Development psych class freshmen year. Thus, bad childhood == bad adolescence. Not exactly rocket science.

Re:Bull. I hit puberty late. Here are my observati

[Jeremi]

and I have to sort of beat off the women now

Dude, I don't think those are women.

Discount for Racial Difference

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard it said that some races reach puberty earlier than others in general. If it so happens that these same races are also more prone to being in fights or in fights with knives and guns at an early age, then the link between early puberty and these problems may not exist. The problems may arrise from a social, economic, or pop-cultural phenomena(s) otherwise linked by race.

Then again the converse could be true, that race doesn't determine any of these factors but that early puberty does.

Its very unclear if their sample set was filtered against introducing such influence.

Re:Underage laws

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

After all, if it is old enough to bleed, it's old enough to breed. ;-)

Actually no. The first menstrual flow is no indication of fertility as it may be several years after this when regular ovulation actually occurs.

Plus you're a pervert.

Re:My torpedos made me do it!

[Jeian]

> I know, I am a girl

On Slashdot? Yeah, right. :P

Re:My torpedos made me do it!

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Guys might be able to damage the body, but girls damage the mind.

Each is equally capable of both. I assure you.

What is hard to grasp

[hey!]

is the consequences apply to you in this particular situation you are facing. It's one thing to know something intellectually, it's another to be aware of how and when to apply that knowledge. Oddly enough, this appears to require special brain wiring.

If you are a parent (which I will assume for the moment you are not), you should be aware of this. You can teach a child not to, say, talk to strangers for example. You can quiz them all you like and they'll answer perfectly. But they'll still talk to a stranger at the drop of a hat. The only kind of knowledge that sticks is that gained by practicing, e.g. by role plaing. It's never safe to assume a child will act on the logical consequences of their factual knowledge. Even adults often have difficulty with this and for kids its always a problem.

Anatomical studies show that the brain continues to mature well past the point we consider adult. Whether a thirty year old brain is superior to a twenty year old one is a value judgement; its clear that on some tasks it is not (e.g. learning a new language). However it's safe to assume something is going on. Given the complexity of the human brain, it's no wonder it's not finished by the time you're 18. Hypothetically speaking, it's not inconceivable that evolution de-prioritizes the finer aspects of judgement for later, given that it tends to be moderated by the close presence of older individuals.

Must be a US thing!

[KyrBe]

"Early Puberty Often More Hazardous" -- Is it really? Or is that just the case if you live in the US? Personal experience and observation of my peers, doesn't bare this as true (based on observations living in the UK, Germany and Denmark). All early puberty did for me was result in an interesting, varied, active, and adventurous sex life that has lasted since I was 14 and still going strong (currently 28). Early puberty, being gay, and not being somewhere where kids are routinely shot by their peers has it's perks after all!

How and why are humans starting puberty early?

[Nurgled]

I think it's more interesting to research into why humans are starting puberty early. People normally point to changes in diet and such things, but I wonder if there isn't a social aspect to this as well. The problem with young children getting pregnant is that they are not yet able to properly care for a child. Per Darwinian evolution (which I know isn't the whole story, but just bare with me) a child whose parent is unable to care for it is more likely to die and fail to carry on the traits that lead to early onset of puberty. Therefore you'd expect that this trait would not proceed to the point where it is harmful.

However, due to the social nature of human beings we tend to care for one another. If a child has a baby and is unable to care for it the the baby's grandparent may, for example, take care of it. Sometimes such babies are also put up for adoption. This means that such non-beneficial traits can get carried forward and become more common over time until the burden of underage parents becomes too heavy for society to bear. We are starting to see such problems now, which is essentially what this article is about: society is not adapting very well to the early puberty of kids. Should the ages where the various stages of sex education are taught be brought earlier? I didn't hear a peep about STDs through school until I was 13, despite the fact that many of my peers were already sexually active by that point. I don't know when they teach this stuff these days, but I'd hope it's earlier than that. Can an increasingly conservative society even cope with the idea of 11-year-old parents? Will schools go downhill with younger children getting themselves into trouble at an earlier age and have to revert to smaller class sizes to retain quality teaching? Is there some way that early-onset puberty can be reduced ethically to avoid some of these problems?

There are so many social impacts to consider including many we haven't even realised are a problem yet; the outcome of this particular research is a little contrived, but I'm glad to see people thinking about these things nonetheless.

Re:How and why are humans starting puberty early?

[Mycroft_VIII]

Another possible contribution is that younger persons are less likely to seek birth controll if they do decide to do it, and thus pass on the genes for early peuberty. Of course this would tend to ballance out against the smaller size of the mother wich I assume would increase the likelyhood of birth problems (partially offset by modern medicine, but there are limits here too).
    Though I've also heard reports suggesting that many of the plastics our food comes in may be leaking small amounts of estrogen like compounds that may be a contributing factor.

Mycroft

Obvious?

[naken]

Isn't this obvious? I mean everyone knows that early puberty leads to masturbation which causes hairy palms and blindness... :)

1 2 1 2 The Naken Crew

Interesting, but...

[Kyrene]

I started at seven, and oddly enough aside from having lots of angry, jealous girls when I started menses and they didn't (at aged 10), I really didn't experience life any differently. Then again, I was also a year younger than everyone in my class so the differences weren't as extreme as they might have been.

At the same time, I watched everyone else act like idiots when I was a teenager over sex and drugs and made up my mind not to join them. Early puberty doesn't make one have sex at an early age--stupidity and lack of the concept of individual responsibility will.

I love how society likes to blame everything BUT individuals for their problems and for doing stupid things. TV made me do it. Hollywood made me do it. Drugs made me do it. And now, "Puberty made me do it." It's terribly dysfunctional.

Mod Parent up!

[miller701]

Most kids just don't have the skill set for:

Not getting what you want the second you want it, or in the case of newborns, what you NEED (sleep).
Getting someone else (an infant) what they NEED
Putting up with someone else (esp. toddlers) not getting what they WANT

YMMV, but I think most reasonable 25 year olds that can manage a budget, keep their house/car/PC maintained and take care of themselves (eat right, sleep right, excercise) can handle a child in their lives. Of course, my wife and I had our first kid at 33, so that tells you where I'm at.

I doubt there's a single 15 year old that has the life skills (and a job to pay for it all)to do that.

Best line

[miller701]

Looking at myself, even I wouldn't shag me!

Re:How Old Are You?

[Mr2001]

I *thought* I grapsed the "consequences of pregnancy" at 15 years old. [...] Then I had my first kid at 35 and the second at age 37.

Congratulations! As a teenager, you knew what the consequences of pregnancy might be, and you didn't have a kid until 20 years later. My system works.

I'm not saying it's possible for teenage nonparents to know all about what it's like to be a parent. I'm saying they can recognize that now is not the time for them to have kids, and they can take precautions against becoming parents before they're ready for it.

Idealism is fine but it often conflicts with experience.

You don't need experience being hit by cars to know that you shouldn't play in traffic.

Tiered ages for alcohol consumption in the UK

[AKAJack]

No need to wait until 18! UK laws states:

It's illegal for you to give alcohol to children under 5 (unless it's medical)

If you're under 14 you're not allowed in a pub/bar unless it has a suitable licence. This also includes beer gardens and family rooms.

At 14 you can enter a bar or pub but only if the landlord agrees and if you drink soft drinks (this can include low-alcohol beer).

If you're 16 or 17 you can buy or be bought beer or cider with a meal.

If you're under 18 you can't buy alcohol, anywhere, unless it's the above.

Re:So if the inverse is true

[unitron]

Not female ones, anyway.

Mean girls?

[wayward]

I was about 12 1/2 when I got my first period - apparently around average. But girls can generally be pretty mean, especially around middle school age, and it's not hard to imagine some of them making fun of an early developer. So what I wondered was whether the early puberty could cause them to be excluded by some of their same-age peers. If so, would they end up hanging out with older kids on the fringes? I could see a situation like that being risky.

Re:Mean girls?

[Kyrene]

I was the only one in the entire elementary school who had hers. It would be my guess that most girls in elementary school are typically too young to get it. :)

As for hanging out with older people, everyone in my grade was a year older (I skipped the second grade), so it really didn't make much difference. :) And I really don't see how 16 year olds would want to hang out with a nerdy 10 year old, anyhow!

Re:Mean girls?

[wayward]

I'd sort of been thinking of older kids who weren't especially popular/well-adjusted/mature. No, a normal 16-year-old probably wouldn't want to hang with a 10-year-old.

Re:Mean girls?

[Kyrene]

Heh! My parents, as liberal as they were, never would've gone for me hanging out with 20-something year olds in my early to mid teens. In fact, one of the things that they instilled in me was the belief that if they wanted to hang out with me, something was seriously wrong with the picture. Why didn't they have friends their own age? Et cetera....

I think this all comes down to parenting and what messages you send to your kids. They never *forbade* me from hanging out with older people, just got me to think about what in the world they could possibly gain from hanging out with someone who is that much younger than them.

Most likely they were concerned with my getting taken advantage of by perverts, and given the world we live in I can't honestly say that I blame them. It did NOT help that when I was 10, I looked about 15-16. Thankfully now that I am much older, I am aging backwards. :D

Anti-bullying program

[gumpish]

"anti-bullying program"

Wouldn't summary execution work? Or maybe beating the crap out of the kids parents...

Or a more pragmatic suggestion, install surveillance at schools and the school can file assault charges against the youngsters.

Almost lines up with the "marriage gap" theory

[binarysins]

An instructor of mine was working on a study that was related to this in a way. The premise was that a combination of diet, health factors, social factors, external stimulus were contributing to children hitting puberty earlier and earlier, with an extended period of adolescence - which made it extremely difficult for anyone to abstain from having sex. It went something like in the 20s, most people were marrying at 17 or 18, but not reaching puberty until 15 or 16. They only had to wait a couple years at most before they could start hitting it and not be a disgrace to their family. As the years progressed, the average age that people married got older, but the age they hit puberty got younger. Now, if I'm recalling correctly, the average age that an American kid begins puberty is 10, but the average age that they get married is in the mid-20s. That's over a decade of abstinence if "saving yourself for marriage" is your bag - compared to your grandparents or greatgrandparents who only had to wait a couple of years to be "respectable".

Evolution is not good or bad

[PermanentMarker]

it's not good or bad, in the long term.

As there is not only early puberty, the trend is also that more and more people divorce. So I wondered how this works out for our evolution. Since the mixing will start more earlier (possible more healtier but weaker persons) while our race is also in a later stage looking for better partners.

Perhaps it's a good thing since we reproduce quit slowly compared for example to insects. On the other hand also our social will change over time. Perhaps in a few hundred years it's normal to have a base offspring, and then later have some specialized offspring (thinking in genetics).

hmm this reminds me to the bonobo apes, the solve every conflict with sex. Perhaps that isn't such a bad thing, compared to the rate in which humans kill each other.

common babe you and me, are like mammels on the discovery channel..(song)

All part of the Adult Conspiracy

[FishinDave]

The "logical" reaction to this study is to delay puberty by chemical means. That would be consistent with Western civilization's tendency to extend the dependency phase of its offspring. Compulsory schooling was invented in part to extend adolescence. The age of mandatory schooling has risen consistently. The amount of education one needs is hardly relevant. Only the years one must spend in school matter. "Child" labor laws prevent adolescents from gaining economic independence. It's nearly impossible to become self-supporting before the age of 18 in the U. S. There are moves afoot to raise minimum drivers licensing age to 18 in some States, keeping adolescents dependent upon parents for transportation even longer. In Italy, it's customary for sons to live with their parents until they marry, often late in their 20s or early 30s. In the U. S., moving back into the nest after college does not carry the stigma that it used to. The rising cost of living, student loans, tough job market, etc., have extended the period of economic adolescence. Now comes a study showing that it would be in your child's best interests to delay the onset of his puberty. "Although (parents) may have no control over when their child experiences puberty," I'm sure there's a pill for that, or soon will be, and now the thought of searching for it is being planted. Also note that so-called victimization was less common among "those who reported having higher levels of attachment with their parents." A matriarchal bias seems to be at work in this prolonging of dependency, especially male dependency. Most schoolteachers are female, and every one of them is trained to encourage emotional dependence. This study claims that a boy who has mainly female friends is not victimized as often. (I wonder if the researchers examined any of the ways that girls victimize boys?) And most blatant of all, "females are really good for men," Piquero said. "Women seem to help curtail men's bad experiences." I find this research rather sinister.