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Apple Switched Chips Too Soon?

Ctrl+Alt+De1337 writes "C|Net is reporting that IBM has announced a method of altering silicon that will allow its next generation of Power chips to run at speeds between 4 and 5 gigahertz, and consume less power as well. From the article: 'Instead of just making transistors smaller, IBM came up with a process to alter how silicon behaves by placing a layer of insulator underneath a layer of silicon less than 500 atoms thick ... The higher speed of the Power6 will be achieved with existing chip manufacturing technology that etches transistors only 65 nanometers wide, several hundred times smaller than a human blood cell.' These won't be out until 2007, but it still raises the question: did Apple jump the gun by switching to Intel?"

110 of 533 comments (clear)

  1. Apple too soon or IBM too late? by imoou · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple switched because Intel offers a better deal right now. When IBM offers a better deal, Apple can pretty well switch to (note: switch to, not switch back) this new chip.

    Apple would be silly sticking to an inferior product for 2 more years.

    1. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      WWDC 2010...

      Jobs on stage: "Oh, one more thing, (dramatic pause) the Mac OS has been living a dual life... again.... remember a few years ago when we secretly had the Mac OS under development for the Intel platform!? Guess what, we still kept the PowerPC binaries going and this year we're going offer you both Intel AND PowerPC chips!

      and We call it.... iHAL".

    2. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by mblase · · Score: 2, Informative

      Apple switched because Intel offers a better deal right now.

      I seem to recall it was also a matter of supply problems: IBM couldn't keep up with Apple's demand, while Intel is (apparently) having no problems doing so. In this case, switching back to IBM would just mean inviting this problem back.

    3. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by shotfeel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree. The tech will be available in for the expensive servers in 07? Will be ready for mass production at the level Apple would need in ??? Will be cheap enough for the PC market in ???? Will be energy efficient in ?????

      Remember, IBM likes to make high-end chips where the cost of the chip is secondary to raw power for its servers. That's where the new tech generally goes first. IBMs first goal isn't cost efficient processors for PCs -which is why the IBM/Apple "breakup" can be viewed as a good thing for both companies.

    4. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by ericdano · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But right now there are applications that can run on BOTH platforms (Intel and PPC). So, why not just keep the option open and have applications be Universal and then it doesn't matter what Chip is inside. It will just simply run.

      I think the dumbest thing is to get locked into a chip again. I think it would be really genius to be able to have an OS that runs on anything.

      --
      It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
      I moderate therefore I rule!
      --
    5. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by jcr · · Score: 4, Informative

      I seem to recall it was also a matter of supply problems

      That, and the impossibility of getting a G5 into a laptop.

      Apple probably lost a billion dollars or more every quarter since the G5 came out, because of supply restrictions. It's a fine CPU, but we just couldn't get enough of them.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    6. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm still waiting for the eight pound, 10-inch screen iPod that Steve Jobs announced during his podcast demo at MacWorld last month. :P

    7. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by DrXym · · Score: 4, Insightful
      But right now there are applications that can run on BOTH platforms (Intel and PPC). So, why not just keep the option open and have applications be Universal and then it doesn't matter what Chip is inside. It will just simply run.

      The thing is, it doesn't just simply run. If you're application developer you now have to run a complete QA cycle on two totally disparate architectures. Or choose to develop on x86 or PPC and hope it works on the other. QA costs an absolute fortunate so most companies know and Apple certainly does that PPC and Universal binaries are a stepping stone. I doubt that if all but the most mainstream apps even pay lip service to it in a couple of years from now. PPC users will basically be left hanging out to dry and I seriously doubt Apple is going to produce a Rosetta for PPC anytime soon.

    8. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by larry+bagina · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Not that easy - Apple, if you're reading, consider GPLing the source code to OSX. You'll find it a hell of a lot easier to maintain, and you don't make that much money on software compared to your hardware (and future music/video distribution biz)

      The GPL (and FREE software) existed before Mac OS X. Why didn't the free software community develop anything as good as OS X? They had a chance (they still do), they didn't do it. (Yes, I know /. is full of people who insist KDE, GNOME, fwvm, E, etc. are all superior to OS X. Then they cream their pants when a leaked OS X86 iso torrent appears.)

      If you want to develop something really cool and give it away for free, that's fine. But your asking for other people to develop something and give it away for free.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    9. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by ericdano · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Indeed. However, a lot of applications have not been compiled/optimized for Intel. Now, with Apple pushing for Universal applications, a user could run on either Intel or PPC. Yeah, you can run an application with Rosetta. But, if it can be easily compiled to allow for either chip......

      --
      It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
      I moderate therefore I rule!
      --
    10. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by manonthespoon · · Score: 2, Insightful
      now that they're intel based, there is NO reason for me to switch anyone I know to one...

      Aside from the operating system... And the applications... And the tight integration of hardware and software...

    11. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by johkir · · Score: 2, Informative

      While not GPL, Apple has released much of the source code under APSL.

      --
      These are some of the things molecules do...... given 4 billion years -Carl Sagan
    12. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I think it would be really genius to be able to have an OS that runs on anything.

      You might want to download a copy of NetBSD then.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    13. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by jafac · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Apple switched because they're sick of IBM marketing writing checks that IBM manufacturing can't deliver.

      This vapor-chip is no different than the 1GHz multicore G4 (in large numbers) IBM promised when the first G4's were delivered.

      Apple is probably not worried that IBM might actually deliver on this promise.

      Look, I'd much rather see Apple stick to a multi-chip strategy, or just stick with PPC, myself. Because I think (and we're already seeing it) that even with VERY slick emulators and fat binary technology, switching from PPC to Intel is going to end up being a usability nightmare for non-technical users: (hey, your web browser still works, but not your plugins), and a compatability nightmare for technical users: (hey, your Photoshop/Video Editing/Audio Editing software still works, but not your favorite 5 year old set of plugins). But at the end of the day, there's only so many broken promises and marketing bullshit you can put up with from IBM. True - with the G5, it seemed, IBM was FINALLY delivering on the promise that was made when the PowerPC platform first was dreamed up in the early 1990's. Except that they hobbled the chip by getting rid of the litte/big endian translation, which made x86 emulation SLOWER than on the previous generation. Then they promised low heat and power consumption - making the high-end G5 Power Macs "whisper quiet" - until Apple learned that these machines were running dangerously hot, and had to patch the firmware to crank up the fans (yeah, I remember when I first got my dual G5, it *was* whisper-quiet. But not after the second OS update. . . ) - face it. Apple trusted Motorola, and got screwed. They trusted IBM, and got screwed. They know they can trust Intel, because if Intel screws them, then Dell, Gateway, and a zillion other manufacturers will go to AMD, and Apple can to. That's really the bottom line.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    14. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by jafac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, it does not double testing costs.

      You use the same installer, the same compiler, the same debugger, the same test procedures (even the same test-harness software - if you're that lucky). It doubles your hardware costs, and doubles the hours billed to actual test performance, but that's actually a small fraction of what's involved in a proper testing process. Unfortunately, most software vendors don't use a proper testing process, and only use the minimal components, which is why their cost is doubled, and utterly ineffective on either platform alone.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    15. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by byolinux · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mach was in NEXTSTEP too.

    16. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by catwh0re · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Motorola had a similar press release when Apple gave the majority of their business to IBM. I'm still waiting for this technology that was supposed to blow us away.("Many times more efficient in both speed and power consumption.")

      In any case x86 have the performance flag right now, and it's in products that are on the market and selling well. This article is talking about a technology that isn't even in mass production, yet alone the yields required to supply Apple's line of products. By 2007 Intel also plan to have more advanced chips (notably on 45nm not 65nm like IBM.) If Apple were to stay on PPC, we'd be celebrating the 1.8GHz Powerbook by now.... up a whole 33MHz from this time last year.

    17. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm sorry, but your post is incredibly uninformed.

      NeXTSTEP was Mach + BSD with Display PostScript and objc libraries.

      Mac OS X is Mach + BSD with Display PDF and objc libraries (the latter rewritten with CoreFoundation), plus Carbon.

      Mac OS X is basically NeXTSTEP.

      On a side note, I'm really tired of Apple fanboys who are unwilling to admit that these technologies are nearly 20 years old. Apple marketing wants people to think that Mac OS X is shiny and new. It isn't. They also want free software/open source enthusiasts to think that it has more to do with FreeBSD than NeXT. It's a bit frustrating to hear Mac OS X compared to Linux or even a typical BSD because they are really apples and oranges (no puns intended)

    18. Re:Apple too soon or IBM too late? by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That would be really good thing.

      I've often wondered about that. We have a lot of asymmetrical multi proccessor machines where there's general purpose processor which offloads tasks to GPUs, signal processors etc, but are there any computers which use multiple diffent general purpose CPUs?

      Amiga's Sidecar had an Intel CPU and ran DOS from within the Amiga OS using Janus software and there were bridgeboards that could run Windows for later models. How hard would it be to write an OS which could address both CPUs and pass instructions to the most suitable processor?

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  2. They can switch again! by abscissa · · Score: 2, Informative

    Who says Apple won't switch chips again? The current relationship isn't all roses, despite all we have heard. Apple won't put those retarded "Intel inside" stickers on their products.

    And, it would seem, the Intel core duo is full of serious bugs which Intel doesn't really care about.

    1. Re:They can switch again! by SparkyTWP · · Score: 2, Informative

      Now, you know that ALL microprocessors have bugs in them, right? This isn't unusual or noteworthy in the least.

    2. Re:They can switch again! by Luscious868 · · Score: 3, Informative
      Who says Apple won't switch chips again?

      I think it's pretty well established, even with this development, that Appple won't be switching chips again anytime soon. The move was more about laptop chips than anything else. Laptop sales kept growing and IBM kept making promises it couldn't keep. Intel had a solution available and Apple liked the product roadmap of future chips so it jumped ship. I doubt Apple would suddenly switch back because IBM might have a much faster desktop chip in 2007. Desktop sales will probably be even further marginalized by then and IBM has a well established history of making promises about it's processors that it can't keep.

  3. Both supported by mikeleemm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Doesn't mean Apple can't rethink and switch back. From the looks of it, right now they are supporting both platforms. Since they have the ability to go back and forth (with performance loss of course) I can see strategic changes as they see fit.

    1. Re:Both supported by John+Napkintosh · · Score: 4, Funny

      Doesn't mean Apple can't rethink and switch back

      Don't you mean "think different"?

      --

      Long signatures suck.
    2. Re:Both supported by weileong · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually. Considering the installed base of PPC Macs, it's likely that universal binaries are going to be the standard release from here on out - *universal* binaries, not "intel-only" binaries. So this will really give Apple a lot of freedom to "switch back" from a technical perspective.

      Of course, considering what must have happened in the background when Apple did the switch - I've heard rumours IBM found out about the switch the same as all of us from the announcement at WWDC - whether IBM will be interested in Apple's business again in the future is a separate matter. It's entirely possible the only G5s Apple has are ones being delivered under the pre-WWDC contracts and that the iMac G5 is being retired so soon not only because they WANT to switch over to Intel ASAP, but because they don't have the G5s to put in 'em. IBM's probably been busy retooling the fabs to make Cells for Sony et al and won't be switching them back anytime soon...

    3. Re:Both supported by psycho8me · · Score: 5, Funny

      Grammer nazi says, "think differently".

    4. Re:Both supported by jcr · · Score: 5, Funny

      Spelling Nazi says "Grammar".

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    5. Re:Both supported by FidelCatsro · · Score: 3, Funny

      Bannkontrolleur National Sozialist sagt Grammatik

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    6. Re:Both supported by HoneyBunchesOfGoats · · Score: 2, Funny

      Punctuation Nazi says, "Grammar."

    7. Re:Both supported by jcr · · Score: 5, Funny

      Das echte Bannkontrollier sagt: "Bannkontrolleur" sieht Französisch aus.

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    8. Re:Both supported by skingers6894 · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Think previous"

  4. Intel will benefit too by Anonymous+Cowdog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Presumably any such improvement will be licensable (or just plain doable -- maybe they already have it in the labs) by Intel as well.

  5. or is it just an IBM PR stunt by popra · · Score: 3, Insightful

    with all the bad PR they've been getting related to Apple's switch, this seems more likely something a desperate PR department would do.
    I mean one and a half years is a lot when it comes to CPU research & development, why tell everyone what you're doing?

    1. Re:or is it just an IBM PR stunt by FogHorn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Vaporware alert! SOI (silicon-on-insulator) is old news - this looks like a PR stunt: pick something old up off the shelf, dust it off and shoot off a press release. 4 GHz and 5 GHz chips have been promised before by more than one manufacturer. I'll believe it when I see the actual die out.

    2. Re:or is it just an IBM PR stunt by stevesliva · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not vaporware, just bad reporting. IBM's indicating that the chip will use SOI and strained silicon... if the reporter is too daft to realize that's unrevolutionary, whatever.

      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
  6. Answer: No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because you'd still be running on 1.42 GHz G4's in Powerbooks due to the heat issues around a mobile G5 processor...

  7. Apple Switched Chips Too Soon? by BuR4N · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No, it was the best thing to do, instead of having one company as a supplier they now got at least 2 , AMD and Intel. I think we get better and cheaper Apple boxes out of the x86 move.

    Its not all about performance either, its the ability to ship large quantities of chips also, if you want to grab a larger market share.

    --
    http://www.intellipool.se/ - Intellipool Network Monitor
    1. Re:Apple Switched Chips Too Soon? by doormat · · Score: 4, Informative

      Technically, didn't they have two before? IBM and Freescale?

      --
      The Doormat

      If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
  8. Universal Binaries by pq · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I thought the idea of Universal Binaries was that the packages were compiled for multiple architectures, selectable at runtime? The same binaries are now running on Macintels and G5s, so Apple should be able to continue running apps on either architecture...

    --
    "I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
    1. Re:Universal Binaries by krakelohm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but I think the Univeral Binaries is more of a stop-gap solution then what the norm will be. Just like the switch to PPC. At the time there were FAT Binaires that could go either way. Now that is just not the case. FAT served its purpose... to transition to PPC and I see UB in the same light.

      --
      You are all a bunch of idots.
    2. Re:Universal Binaries by hackstraw · · Score: 2

      I thought the idea of Universal Binaries was that the packages were compiled for multiple architectures, selectable at runtime? The same binaries are now running on Macintels and G5s, so Apple should be able to continue running apps on either architecture...

      They are also known as "fat binaries", and Apple (next too?) has used them in the past with platform changes. Apple is pretty slick in that they store an "application" in a special directory with the extension .app, and in there are all sorts of goodies like libraries, binaries, etc to make the "app" work with one single DND installation.

      Personally, I would not mind if Apple carried two lines of processors for a while. They are at this point in time, and as others have pointed out, maybe the Intel relationship was/is not as good as it first seemed.

      Its hilarious that Apple actually has a command called 'lipo' which can "lipo - create or operate on fat files". Cute :)

    3. Re:Universal Binaries by clarkcox3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that the Universal (aka Fat) binaries on MacOSX are not related to the Fat binaries on the old MacOS, they are a direct descendant of Fat binaries on Next (Yes, I know, they're both called "Fat", confusing, isn't it?). Universal Binaries have been part of MacOSX since it's inception, and won't likely go away for a long time.

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    4. Re:Universal Binaries by soft_guy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unlike the transition from 68K to PowerPC, the operating system itself is running native in x86 assembly. When Apple transitioned to PowerPC, they rewrote less than 5% of the OS and added the Mixed Mode Manager and the Code Fragment Manager and then shipped it. The system was quite often running in 68K mode. Over time, they made more of the OS PowerPC native. Thus, Mac users got used to equating an OS update to mean "faster system" while in the Windows world the opposite is true.

      This time, the OS is written in a high level language and has been maintained in X86 for years.

      I think the one serious problem with this scheme is that they think they can drop support for Classic. I think more people use Classic than they think.

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  9. Not so fast by bratboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IBM was facing a pretty big loss of business, and would have let Apple know before the official announcement. Apple knew, and decided to switch anyway.

  10. Nothing new by wiredlogic · · Score: 4, Informative

    SOI is nothing new. It's been around for decades for radiation hardened ICs used in space and military electornics. The only news is that it is now being considered for large scale commercial production. IBM has been hinting at a transition to SOI for years and rest assured that Apple planners were well informed of this when they made the decision to switch.

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    1. Re:Nothing new by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 2

      What? You mean a dramatic headline proclaiming Apple switch chips too soon is just fluff? All the misinformed commentary speculating that Apple will "switch back" as if Intel's chips are just going to stand still until 2007 are bogus? Apple switched because they wanted cooler, faster chips in their laptops, period. Unless you guys want to have been stuck with 1.4Ghz G4s in your Powerbooks until 2007.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
  11. Chickens and Eggs by ironwill96 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't count your chickens before they hatch. IBM's chip is theoretical and not in production, Intel's is here now. The better question is, why didn't Apple switch to Intel chips earlier?

    --
    "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson
    1. Re:Chickens and Eggs by linguae · · Score: 2, Informative
      The better question is, why didn't Apple switch to Intel chips earlier?

      Because, up until recently (2004 or 2005), the PowerPC still was a better performing chip (and the G5 is still better in many ways). The G5 came out in 2003, and it knocked the socks off of any Intel offering at the time. However, the PowerPC G4 was left to get old and rust (As much as I hate the x86, I will admit that the G4 performance sucks in comparison to the Pentium M and Solo/Core Duo), and they couldn't fit a PowerPC G5 processor into a laptop, which is Apple's bread and butter. I would much rather have a PowerBook Core Duo^W^W^W MacBook Pro than a PowerBook G4 (even though I would much rather have a PowerBook G5 than a MacBook Pro if the G5 existed).

      Apple's switch to Intel is about performace per watt. The G4 is getting too ancient compared to Intel's offerings, and the G5 isn't designed for laptops and other small-form computers (like the Mac mini, for example).

  12. Too Soon? by flosofl · · Score: 2, Informative

    I thought the major impetus for switching to Intel was the supply and timely delivery of the PowerPC (or lack thereof). IBM was not willing to meet Apple's requirements. There is no guarantee they would meet them with this chip, either.

    So no, Apple did not move too soon.

    --
    "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
  13. No way. by homerj79 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No way did Apple jump the gun. Both Apple and their users wanted more speed, especially in their mobile products, and Intel delivered on that today - not in mid-2007. I see in no way how a chip process that wont be available until 2007 is compared against a decision made in 2005. I think anyone in the right mind can see why Apple made the switch in the first place.

    --
    SYSOP ('sih-sop) n.: the guy laughing at your typing.
  14. Apple hasn't switched by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is one subtle, yet important distinction. Apple has added the intel processor to their lineup, but they haven't abandoned the PPC architecture. Although Steve et al. have implied a complete switch through the various pr statements made on the subject, Apple could just as easily stick with both chips indefinitely. Or they could retreat back to PPC if intel suddenly died and IBM came out with a blockbuster. That is of course if Intel doesn't lift this technology from IBM for their own chips in the future. Which they will.

    --
    Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
    Africus aut Europaeus?
    1. Re:Apple hasn't switched by tpgp · · Score: 2, Informative
      Apple has added the intel processor to their lineup, but they haven't abandoned the PPC architecture. Although Steve et al. have implied a complete switch

      Its not implied - its stated. Look at Steve Job's words at the keynote where he announce the intel macs
      But starting next year we will begin introducing Macs with Intel processors in them and over time these transitions will again occur.*snip* two years from now, our plan is that transition will be mostly complete. And we think it will be complete by the end of 2007.
      Maybe they can go back - but Steve sure as hell abandonded PPC during the keynote.
      --
      My pics.
  15. IBM Claims Chip Breakthrough (again) by dontEATnachos · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IBM made the exact same claims with the SOI (silicon on insulator) technology they introduced before. Guess what though, their chips stagnated for a couple years and Apple was left looking like an idiot for claiming that 3GHz chips are going to be out "next summer."

    Intel managed to be just as fast as IBM, if not faster, for the whole time frame. What would lead you to believe that there would be anything different this time?

    --
    Hahahahahaha, what?
  16. I don't see a difference by EggyToast · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The G5 was an amazing chip when it came out. But the speeds stagnated, the heat production was incredible, and they could never design a laptop chip.

    How is this chip different?

    And what would it cost?

    With Intel, Apple gets a low-cost chip that they can use NOW, in their laptops and desktops. They get low-power consumption today, and low-heat today. Not in 2009, when the POWER6 chip has been tamed... Or hell, maybe never, AGAIN.

    So yes, this seems like a good chip. But it doesn't really affect the reasons that Apple changed. It doesn't say it's a good chip for laptops, and they would still need to change the architecture of their systems. AND they'd have to stick with a company that was creating lower yields.

    Plus, this writeup makes it sound like IBM didn't tell Apple that they were about to make POWER6 chips. I'm sure they knew, and I'm sure they realized the advantages and disadvantages.

  17. Not really. by CerebusUS · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Power6 chip will compete against offerings from IBM rivals such as Intel, Advanced Micro Devices and Sun Microsystems...But the process also tends to make chips run hotter

    So these are server chips. The area of Apple's lineup that was suffering the worst was their laptop line. These breakthroughs from IBM don't address that at all.

    1. Re:Not really. by Orrin+Bloquy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      By "can't run OpenOffice," what do you mean? I'm running it on a G4 iBook.

      1. Download, install fondu
      2. Download, install OpenOffice2.0.0 developer beta for OSX
      3. Profit!

      Or just get the most recent NeoOffice which works as native Aqua instead of X11 and skip having to get fondu.

      --
      "Made up/misattributed quote that makes me look smart. I am on /. and I must look smart."
    2. Re:Not really. by CerebusUS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, Suffering.

      When the fastest (and most expensive) laptop in the line barely outperforms the cheapest desktop, that's a real problem, whether individual buyers noticed it or not. And from _my_ mac-loving friends, they noticed it.

  18. Reasons for switch... by PaulBu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course it was reported all over that the reason for Apple switching to Intel processors was because of speed and power consumption -- this is what makes consumer happier ("Hey, an extra GHz!".

    But another reason was that Apple was VERY unhappy for a while with the rate IBM produced PPC processors and their rather poor chip yields. Introducing more exotic SOI process would not help keeping these yields up, for sure!

    We will see if IBM will be able to fulfill demand for PS3 Cell processors -- I wish them best, but...

    Paul B.

    1. Re:Reasons for switch... by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Apple was VERY unhappy for a while with the rate IBM produced PPC processors and their rather poor chip yields.

      And IBM was VERY unhappy dealing with Steve Job's demands for special features, small orders placed for new chips, the whole just-in-time mentality at Apple, and reports that Jobs deliberately fudged his orders by not ordering enough while blaming IBM each time Apple failed to forecast demand properly. Not to mention Jobs trying to score the rest of the chips in the production run at fire sale prices because IBM's production batches were typically larger than Job's initial orders.

      Let Intel deal with all that now. The big "I" has already pissed off their biggest customer (Dell) by letting Apple announce Core Duo notebooks first. Intel may find that the price for buying off their biggest critic (Jobs) is higher than they'd anticipated. If so, they deserve it.

      What nobody deserves are 32-bit Core Duo Apples in a 64-bit world!

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  19. No. by qwertphobia · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No, Apple did not switch too soon.

    Remember, we (the loyal Apple customers) have been waiting for a significant increase in computing power within the portable market.

    IBM made promises to Apple but were unable to deliver on those promises. Remember the statements about 3 GHz within a year? Apple couldn't sit by while IBM broke promise after promise on upcoming product lines.

    If Apple had waited any longer, they would have lost momentum in the portables market, and in turn the desktop computer market, eventually pulling down the servers and everything else with it.

    On the other hand, Apple could always keep their servers on the IBM product line. I doubt they would, but it's always a possibility. Apple might just not be done with the PPC for good.

    --
    Never ask for directions from a two-headed tourist! -Big Bird
  20. Answer: Depends on what they want by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they want speed, then the answer is "maybe" - but then again, Apple could have considered AMD (please, fanboys on either side, before there's an Intel v AMD argument - just shut it).

    However, if Apple is going for more than speed, and wants Intel's DRM technology, their vivo (I think that's the acronym) certification for projects that would make Hollywood happy, and other things to allow the company to cozy up with the entertainment market - then Intel was the right choice.

    Personally, I'm pleased with the Intel switch. Speed is looking up, once Wine or an Intel virtual PC is up and running that lets me play Half-Life 2 at nearly full speed I'll be set with my games, and besides, IBM had how long to get a G5 into a laptop and couldn't deliver?

    So while IBM's technology looks pretty damn cool, I'm not worried about Apple making the "right" or "wrong" choice. As long as my apps and terminal work on my Powerbook (oops - sorry, "Macbook Pro"), then I think I'll be all right.

    Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

  21. the switch was about money not technology by Shivetya · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work in a world where a variation of the PowerPC drives a business. From iSeries (AS/400 new name) to xSeries and eventually the pSeries. The processor and the technology behind it are simply amazing. We went from 48bit to 64bit computing in the late 90s without recompiling or any such nonsense because iSeries engineers separated the processor from the OS. The tech has always been there. We have PowerPC powered thin clients as well - fanless to boot!

    Switching to the Intel platform allowed Apple to get those sitting on the fence waiting for the next greatest thing to have a reason to buy a new Apple computer. It will even garner more buyers from the previously Intel-Only world in the form of linux and windows geeks. Continuing the PowerPC line would not generate the boost in revenue Steve needed. There are only so many variations of the iPod they can crank out before someone either starts to truly compete (overseas the iPod saturation level is only near 40%) or the market moves to further integration perhaps out of Apple's area of expertise.

    I know its working, almost everyone of my friends who have Macs are going to buy into the new machines. The laptops are where its going to be the biggest until the mini comes out intel flavored. After that IntelMini comes out I expect another surge once someone shows Linux and Windows running on it easily.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  22. Two things: by Senjutsu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One) It doesn't "beg the question". Begging the question is a logical fallacy in which you assume, implicitly or explicitly, the very thing you are trying to prove.

    Two) Apple primarily switched because the laptop-suitable G4 line speeds had been stagnant forever. Freescale's 7448 is over a year late and counting. PA Semi's everything and the kitchen sink promises are still vapour-ware. And IBM couldn't provide a G5 that ran cool enough to put in a laptop.

    This technology won't be out in the Power6 until 2007 if everything goes as planned, a never-safe assumption when it comes to IBM's fabs. Add more time to that for them to retool the Power6 into a desktop-suitable G6. So in return for not switching, Apple would have to leave their desktop speeds stagnant for another year, and still have no guarantee of any new chips to offer in their laptop line.

    Selling 1.42 Ghz, 133 Mhz front side bus iBooks is tough enough now. They'd have had to be absolutely suicidal to stick to IBM's roadmap and the near certainty that they be trying to sell the exact some mobile processors in late 2007.

  23. RTFA by idsofmarch · · Score: 3, Informative
    If you RTFA you will see that while speeds of 4 to 5Ghz are possible the chips also run hotter therefore the switch to Intel, especially for small form factor machines like the laptops, no to mention the Mac Mini, was still a step up from the G4 without the heat issues of the G5. The Power6 architecture might be great for a PowerMac however.

    And the Cell processor is almost as pie in the sky, until there's some real information about the Cell everything is just conjecture and hope.

    --
    Anyone who whines about being modded down should be.
  24. Re:Begs the question? by mopslik · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yes, just like "hacking" and all the other words people have taken over to mean something different.

    For all intensive purposes, I could care less.

  25. Silicon-on-Insulator? by SparkyTWP · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This sounds an awful lot like Silicon-on-Insulator (SOI). The wikipedia article, however, says that PowerPC chips have had this for a while now, so I'm not sure how it's different. I'm sure if it is some new technology, Intel will be licensing it in no time. They don't really have any other choice.

    1. Re:Silicon-on-Insulator? by minerat · · Score: 3, Informative

      It sounds like that to me too. It also sounds like strained silicon, so maybe a combination of both. (wiki says stretched, the IBM guy says squeezed)
      "You literally can squeeze silicon, and thereby give it properties to make it faster. The thing that is making it run faster is not just that it's smaller but because you're changing its basic physical properties," Meyerson told Reuters in an interview.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strained_silicon
      Strained silicon is a layer of silicon in which the silicon atoms are stretched beyond their normal interatomic distance. This is accomplished by putting the layer of silicon over a substrate of silicon germanium (SiGe). As the atoms in the silicon layer align with the atoms in the silicon germanium layer where the atoms are farther apart, the silicon atoms become stretched. The electrons in strained silicon move 70% faster allowing strained silicon transistors to operate 35% faster.

      --
      ...and you've eaten your pen. simply stunning.
  26. Probably not too soon... by tktk · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Sure, IBM just came out with better chips. But if Apple didn't switch, it would probably be only the 4th largest customer for IBM in the next few years.

    Apple would have had to wait in line behind Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo. Xbox 360, PS3 and Revolution are all going to use IBM chips. These 3 systems will use the same chips for years. So once things are running, it'll be an easy job of IBM to supply them. Apple, in the meantime, will be constantly asking for faster and better chips from IBM.

    If you were IBM, would you like to deal with 3 easy customers or one tough one?

  27. Keeping One's Options Open by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You'll know Apple is keeping their options open if they extend the life of their current G5 PPC machines by bringing out new models. Sure it will be explained as, "Some of our customers can't/won't switch to Intel yet so we're continuing to support their demands." (If Dell actually supported their own customer's demands, they'd be selling AMD64 processors long since.)

    So that's what to watch for. Any extension of the G5 line. Anything so much as a bump in processor speeds will give Intel some well-deserved heartburn.

    And remember, the only Apple Intel machines currently available are 32-bit models. And it looks to stay this way until at least mid-year. For the life of me I cannot understand why Apple wants to support both 32-bit and 64-bit Intel machines in addition to 32-bit and 64-bit PPC machines. That's a huge drain on resources -- especially when you are not only not nearly the biggest player in the field, but won't be anytime soon. And all your software partners are also going to be required to support 32/64 as well. I'm surprised SJ hasn't been assassinated by his own operating system engineers by now.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  28. Ever Heard of a Universal Binary? by The+Lost+Supertone · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Oi vey, A) server chip not a desktop and certainly not a laptop chip. B) Universal binaries mean that if this tech ever did make it into successors to the PPC 970, then Apple could release a new tower with it without so much as a hickup. Apps are still going to be made for both PPC and x86 for years yet, and at any point for the next while Apple can certainly switch right back.

  29. it's not like Apple didn't know this was coming... by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does CNET really think that in private meetings with IBM, this technology wasn't discussed months if not over a year ago, with Apple? I love how the press thinks that when THEY find out about it, the rest of the world is first hearing about it too...

    "Stupid Apple", they chant. Except:

    • IBM has said they can do it, but not for over a year. Intel is here, now, shipping.
    • IBM has historically had problems meeting supply. Intel doesn't.
    • IBM has made it clear they don't care about Apple- they were running around telling everyone how Apple represented a single-digit percentage of their output of PPC's. Not a good sign when your supplier is dismissing how 'trivial' you are.

    Maybe these Power chips will end up in Xserves or something...seems fairly unlikely though.

  30. Non-Disclosure by Rick.C · · Score: 2
    Most companies brief their customers (under non-disclosure) about upcoming products before they are announced to the public. Especially large customers like Apple.

    I'd wager that Apple knew about this long before they decided to switch.

    --
    You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
    "Math in a song is good."-Linford
  31. IBM and AMD makes this good for apple too by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the reasons AMD caught up with intel was IIRC they liscenced IBMs Silicon-on-insulator technology to get lower heat dissipation. If IBM once again liscences this to AMD then you will have this technology running on 0x86 instruction sets. Or conversely, if it's a world beating technology IBM may be able to persuade Intel to liscence it's 0x86 instruction sets.

    No matter how fast the chip is, unless it runs 0x86 it's never going to show up in home or bussiness computers. Windows is the glue that holds that enterpise together and unless windows runs on it, people wont buy it and dell wont sell it unless there's a market.

    So Apples will probably by able to access this in the new 0X86 mode. but it's not going to be just a simple processor replacement since you also will need RAM and busses that can handle the suction this processors is going to have. So motherboards are going to have to be entirely redeisnged to cope.

    So this is going to be good news for apple since they are an agile hardware manufacturer that is not locked into the PC motherboard paradigm and are free to create their own firmware and software to run on radical hardware variants.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:IBM and AMD makes this good for apple too by goombah99 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Link for AMD plus IBM on silicon on insulator technology: Link

      yes i realize this is not the same thing, but it stands to reason this will be IBM's conduit for this new technology to the 0x86 world. and thus to Apple.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:IBM and AMD makes this good for apple too by aixguru1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Windows may hold the Enterprise Desktop environment, but they are a far cry from holding the server market in business. IBM is the leader there. They build the top end, most reliable, and highly available systems short of a custom engineered product for complete failure detection. In short, IBM is doing more for large scale business than anyone else these days. If you were running a large company, say a Fortune 50 retailer, would you install a bunch of Windows servers and setup nightly reboot jobs to keep things running smoothly, or would you setup AIX servers with HACMP (IBM's high availability offering) to run even if the hardware dies, sites go down, net connections drop, etc... you get the drift. It's all about what people can afford and the best is IBM.

      --
      root 10956 5164 0 Oct 22 - 0:23 sendmail: rejecting connections: load average: 70 (isn't sendmail just too kind)
    3. Re:IBM and AMD makes this good for apple too by adrianmonk · · Score: 2, Funny
      If IBM once again liscences this to AMD then you will have this technology running on 0x86 instruction sets.

      I don't get it -- what's a 134 instruction set?

  32. Unlikely they'll switch again by sterno · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I rather doubt Apple would switch again. Intel will eventually develop a similar capability or will license the production of it from IBM. I rather doubt Windows laptops will be switching to PowerPC anytime soon so there's a long road ahead for laptop chips at Apple.

    Apple didn't move because of the performance of Intel versus IBM, it was that IBM was very unresponsive when it came to making a laptop variant of the G5. Now that Apple's on the Intel ship, they'll benefit from working with a company that has a vested interest in developing laptop chips. Name me one manufacturer other than Apple that made PowerPC based laptops and you'll see what I mean.

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
    1. Re:Unlikely they'll switch again by jcr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I rather doubt Apple would switch again.

      Not next year, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Apple switch again if Intel slips significantly behind again.

      OS X is very portable. Once you solve the endian issues, bringing it up on a new CPU isn't a Herculean task.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    2. Re:Unlikely they'll switch again by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And, in case anyone is wondering, those were already solved long ago, when NeXTStep got ported from 68k to x86, and then later ported again, from x86 to PPC :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Unlikely they'll switch again by cosmo7 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do you mean Microsoft? Sony? Nintendo? Ford? BMW?

      The PowerPC market is huge. Worldwide, half of all the cars manufactured this year will use at least one PPC.

    4. Re:Unlikely they'll switch again by jcr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Their credibility would be ruined if they did that.

      It wasn't ruined any of the previous times they switched CPUs.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    5. Re:Unlikely they'll switch again by feijai · · Score: 2, Informative
      The porting "problem" typically isn't with the OS, it's with the applications.
      Most modern OS X apps (cocoa apps) recompile to multiple simultaneous architectures, including endian changes, with a single checkbox setting.
  33. Re:Begs the question? by GaryPatterson · · Score: 2, Funny

    That's one I pacifically can't stand.

    Supposably it's said quite a lot.

  34. Re:Begs the question? by Plunky · · Score: 2, Funny

    Geez, you grammar nazis are really prophetic.

  35. You must be kidding me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Given Apple's reputation for the following:

    A: Quality products,
    B: High-quality and responsive technical support,
    C: High profit margin on systems they sell,
    D: Doing massive amounts of R&D and testing on the (Computing) equipment they sell -

    AND, given that Apple actually has a grasp of supply-chain necessities and economics,

    I'd say the view of them being caught "unawares" or "switching away too soon" are too simplistic.

    Apple has the customer loyalty and following they have amongst their rabid geeks due to such things as being able to trace a particular issue to a particular revision of a particular card - and developing a fix for it, literally on receiving less than ten reports of the incident, in a matter of days.

    They based their decision to switch from /one/ processor to /another/ - regardless of vendor - on how well they could do so /seamlessly/ for them and their customers, developers, and ultimately end-users.

    Here, we have IBM /announcing/ (not releasing, pre-releasing, spec-ing, /announcing/) a new processor based upon relatively untested production technology, not having been 'shaken out' - locked in on one supplier. And development & revision & 'shaking out' of this technology is out of Apple's control.

    And you're saying that Apple might actually /want/ to hitch itself & its reputation to this?

    To whit: You picked up that 802.11g box too soon, son - dontcha know UWB is right around the corner?

  36. Re:Begs the question? by Pope · · Score: 3, Funny

    Irregardless of the intent, you have hurt my self of steam with such statements.

    --
    It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  37. Could be the case by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just like the switch to PPC. At the time there were FAT Binaires that could go either way. Now that is just not the case.

    Sure it's not needed anymore, because computers moved on, they were all PPC and so eventually fat binaries were dropped.

    But there's no reason Apple could not, if they chose, simply carry forward indefinatley with two chip lines embedded. Once the work has already been done to take care of endian issues it's not that much work to maintain it and continue to use the libary calls that handle endian problems for you. It's still just one distribution as the binaries are packaged together, it's not like you need two packages.

    As long as Apple shipps PPC computers, developers will be forced to continue to support them by the simple fact the market share they would be loosing is too huge to ignore - that's true for some time even if they go all intel for now because of the existing install base.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  38. Less than 2% of one fabs capacity by charnov · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, chips for Apple accounted for less than 2% of the capacity of just one IBM fab. IBM's tech division (which does chip fabbing) accounted for less than 3% of IBM's total revenue. That's a really small piece of IBM's global business. It's kind of like an oil company losing one gas station...not really gonna hurt them that much.

    --
    [RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
    1. Re:Less than 2% of one fabs capacity by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful
      And I think that's really the point: IBM didn't care much about the success of their desktop/laptop processors. They care about servers. They care about the embedded market. Desktops? That's not a big concern right now.

      So it doesn't matter if IBM has some new tech in 2 years. Their tech, if it materializes as promised, will be focussed on server and embedded markets. Intel's chief business, however, is making processors, motherboards, and associated devices for PCs. In two years, they'll also have better chips than those currently available, but for desktops/laptops/portable devices. That's who Apple wanted to cozy up next to.

  39. This is strained silicon, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    SOI just makes the chip run cooler.
    They are talking about strained silicon, which makes the electron mobility larger in one direction. Intel, in fact, is working on that too, as are others.

  40. Strained Silicon On Insulator by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 3, Interesting
    TFA is imprecise enough that it's hard to be sure, but seems to be talking about a combination of Silicon On Insulator (SOI) and strained silicon. In the x86 world, neither of these is terribly new.

    Intel announced their use of strained silicon back in 2002, and I'm pretty sure all new Pentiums for at least the last couple of years have used this technology. It's essentially certain that every Intel-based Macintosh already uses strained silicon in its CPU.

    As an aside, TFA only talks about "squeezing" silicon, but it's actually possible to either tighten or loosen the lattice. CMOS uses complementary pairs of NMOS and PMOS transistors, and for best results you (normally) want to strain the silicon in opposite directions for each -- though NMOS generally has slightly better characteristics to start with, so IBM may have decided to apply the strain only to the PMOS transistors (or the article may simply be incomplete, and they're really doing both, just like Intel and others do).

    OTOH, AMD has been using SOI (also since they went to 90 nm). I'm reasonably certain that all their current x86 processors use this technology. Their dual core processors certainly do, though some of their low-end processors may not use it (I'm afraid I've lost track of which cores use what technology anymore).

    What IBM has announced is (apparently) successfully using both of these technologies in the same chip. AFAIK, that hasn't been done in an x86 CPU before, but it's not entirely new either. One thing that should be kept in mind is that x86 CPUs are (mostly) built for the mass-market -- that means using fabrication technology that you can dependably produce in large quantities with decent yields. The IBM POWER series chips have a drastically smaller market and substantially higher price tags. A yield level that's perfectly reasonable for that market would virtually put an x86 supplier out of business. As such, both Intel and AMD are somewhat conservative in what they use in production chips, as opposed to what they can manage to do under lab conditions and such (though their volume also lets them put lots of money into R&D to really push the technology as well).

    --
    The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
  41. re: the Apple ad by King_TJ · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think that article referred to by the parent poster is simply biased.... Claiming it caused Dell to switch to AMD processors for all of their new laptops? Ridiculous. Michael Dell has never shown himself to be the type to make large product line changes simply to "send a message" that he didn't care for something as petty as a single commercial.

    Rather, he's repeatedly stated that he has little interest in doing creative, innovative new things. His business is all about mass production of established products and shaving as many costs as possible in the production and shipping process. If I had to guess, I'd think Michael Dell would grin and say "Yep - that's my business model. Boring little boxes. And I sell at least 10 of 'em for every one of those shiny little Apple boxes!"

    AMD has been working hard for years to get some of the "big box" vendors on-board with their latest technologies - and frankly, it's sad that it's taken so long for their adoption. I can see absolutely no harm that would have come from offering Athlon 64 based Dell Optiplexes or Dimensions.... other than Intel not being happy about it.

    Bottom line, as always. Profit. How profitable will it be for Apple to undergo another switch? Someone else is always going to come along with the next big thing in CPUs, but the trick for a company Apple's size is to partner with someone who won't leave you hanging with very outdated chips and no long-term roadmap that looks promising compared to the competitors. IBM has already illustrated a relative lack of interest in such things as consumer PCs. (Sold off the Thinkpad division to Lenovo, for example - and heavily invested in intangibles like consulting.) And certainly, Motorola wasn't even on the radar of "competitive" in the consumer PC marketplace for the last few years. So yeah, Intel was still the best gamble, IMHO, with AMD being the only reasonably close second choice.

  42. Yea, it's notebooks they are not switching back by My_guzzi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not just the 'raw' technology but the application of it. Intel has a lot invested in chip sets that are well groomed for notebooks. Power management is key here.
    Now before the Transmeta crusoe threat, (well scare really) one could reasonably argue that Intel was lacking in motivation to make good notebook chip sets, regardless of how they got there, here we are ..

    There just is not a big enough market for IBM to justify the expense of developing a polished G5 note book chip set. Mind you I am not saying IBM is a crappy company or anything like that. They easily have the technical resources to do it, it just is not in their business interest to spend the kind of bucks it would take.

    1. Re:Yea, it's notebooks they are not switching back by damsa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would imagine that blade servers, game consoles, embedded systems and the like would benefit tremendously from low power G5 procs.

  43. Re:The switch made sense by Guy+Harris · · Score: 2, Informative
    Now why they went with a 32bit Intel part is still a mystery to me. 32bit processors are so last millenium....

    There are two parts to that question: "...went with a 32-bit part" and "...went with an Intel part".

    I have no information on why Intel was chosen. Plenty of people probably have their own theories about that.

    Once Intel was chosen, however, at least for the MacBook Pro, a 32-bit part was the obvious choice if you don't want a Pentium 4 (e.g., too much power, too much heat) and want to ship machines before Merom ships; it's not as if the PowerBooks were 64-bit.

    The iMac might not have the same power and heat concerns, and the previous version was already 64-bit, so perhaps a case could've been made for using an EM64T P4 there. I'm not a hardware or business guy, though, so I'm not sure whether that would've made sense or not.

    In any case, as the next-generation x86 chips from Intel will be 64-bit (if Paul Otellini wasn't lying in his presentation at the Intel Developer Forum, where he said

    Now in true Intel fashion, I don't just want to tell you about these products. I'd like to show it to you. I'm happy to say that the silicon from these three products is really running very, very well. In fact, so well that this presentation today has been running on this [Merom]- based notebook. Let me show you what we've got here. You'll see the presentation there. Let me minimize that. In this chart here we have performance monitor. You can see it's got two cores, two processors running. Over here you can see it's a Windows 64-bit edition, so we've enabled the 64-bit extensions, dual-core, and perfect compatibility.

    We've also got a second product called Conroe. Conroe is a desktop product, and this one, in this case, is running in a [reference] platform here. And it's running Fedora Linux 64. And there's a third product here called Woodcrest, which is a server product. It's actually in a DP - a dual processor configuration, and if you look up at the performance monitor here, what is showing is that it's essentially four cores running. So two processors, two cores each...

    showing 64-bit OSes running on Merom and Conroe prototype boxes), so any Macs with next-generation x86's will have 64-bit processors.

  44. Re:Good news by damsa · · Score: 2, Funny

    You mispelled, Nintendo Armagedden.

  45. Re:The beauty of Universal Binaries... by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Universal Binaries are a transitional stopgap; Apple is, after all, referring to this as a transition to Intel.

    Let's get a few things out of the way:

    1.) This silicon technology isn't new, it's just the first news of it being rolled out in the desktop in major waves.

    2.) This is IBM, who is famous for promising in press releases but never delivering. I still remember when the IBM guy said at WWDC '03 that the G5s would hit 3Ghz "by next summer."

    3.) Apple isn't going to "switch back." For Pete's sake, how could anyone actually think they'd do it all again next year? Apple switched to have faster, cooler chips so they could update their Powerbook line. Portables outsell desktop machines in today's computer industry. They liked Intel's future low-power roadmap (particularly Merom). Steve Jobs originally considered x86 in 2000, and again in 2003 (but was dissuaded with the G5). Remember that Rhapsody ran on Windows NT for a while.

    4.) Intel chips aren't magically going to sit still until 2007. Intel has already announced a dual-core 3.4Ghz Xeon with a unified 16MB cache, available this fall (AMD's fall server chips won't have unified cache until next year...they'll have two 512kb caches). And of course, Merom and Conroe are due out.

    --
    "Sufferin' succotash."
  46. Re:Good news by Reaperducer · · Score: 3, Funny

    You misspeled Armageddon.

    --
    -- I'm old enough to have lived through six different meanings of the word "hacker."
  47. Did Anybody Read the Article? by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The article does nothing to speculate on whether or not this is an indication that Apple made a bad decision switching away from IBM. Apple is not even mentioned once.

    The article mentions that the process makes the chips run hotter, and that engineers are trying to figure out how to counter this so that the chips don't fry themselves.

    Decent article, bad post. Still sounds like Apple made the right decision.

    --
    "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
  48. Please don't confuse the POWER with the PowerPC by theMillo · · Score: 3, Informative

    Call it unfortunate naming, but these two processor families don't really have much in common (other than possibly some marketing material). A POWER processor is the stuff dreams are made of. See http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/. A PowerPC processor is the stuff printers are made of. And until recently; Macs.

  49. probably not by seither · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you think, as the question implies, that Apple wasn't told about emergent IBM chip technologies, I'd say you're crazy.

    Anyway, Apple won't grow that much with just a faster CPU. By getting Intel's support, and breaking down walls that isolate them from the Windoze world, they can more easily pull over switchers.

    with their current momentum, they need to stoke the boiler, make the big bets. Their ability to roll out new technology and navigate the transition seamlessly is a huge competitive advantage.

    yup... solving hard technical problems elegantly... sounds like Apple!

  50. Laptops, laptops, laptops. by blamanj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Power6 is a desktop/server chip. Laptops started outselling desktops last year. Intel is offering relatively fast, low power chips.

    Ergo, the answer is no. Apple did not switch too soon.

  51. Re:Apple had its own reasons... by be-fan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Apple's claim that Intel won on watts has been thoroughly discredited in the press and in the blogosphere.

    It has been discredited everywhere except in reality. IBM had no good competitor to Yonah and Conroe. The G5 was a long-pipeline, high-frequency design, and it just plain ran too hot for a laptop. Yonah is offering integer performance competitive with the top 970MP, with a power budget 1/3 the size and a CPU die about half the size. POWER6 is just another step in the wrong direction as far as Apple is concerned. It's got a higher frequency, longer pipeline, lower IPC, and an even worse INT/FP performance balance than the G5 had. It's the Pentium 4 all over again. Perhaps POWER6 will be the Pentium 4 done right, but no matter what, its not going to be a good chip for Apple's machines. Especially when you consider what will happen when you take a long-pipeline (inherently bandwidth hungry) design like POWER6, which is optimized for 32GB/sec of memory bandwidth and tens of megabytes of cache, and stuff it into a PC system with 8GB/sec of memory bandwidth and a power envelope of 60W.

    --
    A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  52. Unlikely Apple didn't know about this by cwm9 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I just can't imagine if IBM had this on the back burner that they wouldn't have informed Apple of it before they jumped ship. "Oh, yes, Mr. Jobs, I understand you taking your $Ms off to Intel. No hard feelings, mate. You just come on back if you ever wanna play with us again, OK? Oh, Steve? Steve? Darn, he hung up. Oh well, I guess he probably wasn't too interested in this new technology that will make our chips 2x faster in three year's time. ."

    Maybe they hadn't invented this at that time, but I doubt it. It was probably already working in lab deep underground. Even if that were true, I'm sure at some point Intel gave Steve a call to let him know what was going on. If this morning Mr. Jobs woke up and pooped his pants because of what he read in the business section of the WSJ about IBMs new technology, I'll be very surprised.

  53. Re:Apple had its own reasons... by be-fan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The game console cores suck. They are 2-issue in-order designs with crappy branch prediction. Initial reports suggest that they are barely fast enough on integer code to keep the FPU fed, and that's with low-level gaming code. God help you if you're trying to run generic, unoptimized C code on it.

    It's 2006 --- no programmer of desktop/workstation/server programs is going to spend time optimizing their code to make up for a flawed processor design. It's 2006, and a few things have happened that apparently no-one told the "Cell on the desktop" folks about:

    1) Programs are becoming platform-agnostic. Especially at the workstation/server level, many important applications run on multiple platforms. This often means they are not highly optimized on any platform. This was always one of the things that held the G5 back --- it's high theoretical performance was often nullified by its reliance on tight, well-scheduled code tuned to its idiosyncracies. Super-optimized apps is a luxury few users have. Hell, as an engineer, much of the code I write runs in Matlab's JIT. You think that does G5 optimizations? A processor that does not run all these minimally-optimized apps well is not going to fly on the desktop/workstation.

    2) The world is moving towards higher-level languages and higher-level programming constructs. If your CPU can't run machine code with whatever optimizations the JIT can spit out in 100 milliseconds, it sucks. As someone who does a fair bit of programming, I love the Opteron for one reason: it doesn't care how much my code sucks (from a performance standpoint). It lets me write clear, clean code, and runs it with decent performance. I don't have to drop into SHARK to figure out why my 5-issue processor is behaving like a 2-issue one because of instruction scheduling issues, I don't have to sacrifice virgin blood on the alter of code alignment, and I don't have to bust out Altivec to get good FPU performance. Programmers in the desktop/workstation/server markets have gotten used to processors that serve the software, not force the software to serve the hardware. A 2-issue in-order core is not going to fly with them.

    3) Vector performance has largely become irrelevent except in a few markets. Yonah has shitty vector performance, and nobody in x86 land really cares. Most desktop CPUs these days spend their time running integer logic code, or double-precision floating-point, letting the heavy vector lifting be handled by the GPU. As API's like CoreImage/CoreVideo take off, things like VMX and AltiVec will become still more irrelevent, except perhaps to those people running FFTs all day long.

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    A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  54. More useless fearmongering Apple bashing by sethmeisterg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People, this is a manufacturing advancement. This is good for the entire chip industry. Intel will either license or adapt a similar method, and Intel's investment in manufacturing will match this development in short order.

  55. That's nice and all... by IntergalacticWalrus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...but nothing in the article said IBM could sell those miraculous CPUs at a price affordable enough for consumer computers.

  56. Re:or sell them.. by steeviant · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The thing I dislike about traditional X86 architecture is the cruft carried along for so many years, just in case I want to boot PC-DOS 1.0 and run IBM Alley Cat in CGA mode.

    In fact, here's a hint to those making X86 hardware and software, I don't want to do that. I don't know of anyone who still needs compatibility even as far back as Windows 3.1, let alone DOS. Really, pretty much nobody needs that kind of backward compatibility since there are free reliable emulators out there that can simulate a DOS environment very effectively.

  57. IBM reserved their best performance for themself by Been+on+TV · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, from a technical perspective, I am inclined to say that Apple's switch from the PowerPC was not necessarily a brilliant move. However, the real reason for the switch was in my opinion this:

    Apple could no longer live with a processor manufacturer that reserved its best performing processors for their own use

    IBM has a huge business of their own to protect, making servers and workstations using the same technology that Apple does. IBM's issue is that these systems are priced at 2 to 4 times higher than the same performance from Apple. This became very evident when Apple shipped the G5 Xserve and completely undercut IBM in large cluster configurations (which is clearly IBM core markets.) Why has the Xserve not yet shipped with the dual-core IBM 970MP? Why has Apple never shipped anyhthing but dual processor machines even if it was possible all they way back to the PPC 604 days to build 8 way systems. IBM had them. No coincidence if you ask me.

    Intel does not have any such hangups og dependencies. Intel is all about delivering its best performing processors to those who can build systems from them.

    Intel will even throw marketing efforts into the equation -- something IBM never, ever did to help Apple promote the PowerPC plattform. I think IBM's - and IBM Software's complete lack of support for Mac OS X is a telltale sign why Apple had no choice but to switch even if the PowerPC/POWER processors at the technical level perhaps would be better.

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    The future is in beta
  58. OS X, Linux and BSD by metamatic · · Score: 2, Informative
    It's a bit frustrating to hear Mac OS X compared to Linux or even a typical BSD because they are really apples and oranges (no puns intended)

    As a long-time Unix guy, I have to say I don't see that much of a difference between them. Maybe if you're writing device drivers or need to output PDF, yeah, but they're all pretty much POSIX Unix systems. They're similar the way Solaris and AIX are similar, or BSD and Linux.

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    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak