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Missing Link Fossil Discovered

choongiri writes "The Guardian is reporting the discovery of a missing link of evolution. From the article: "Scientists have made one of the most important fossil finds in history: a missing link between fish and land animals, showing how creatures first walked out of the water and on to dry land more than 375m years ago.""

124 of 864 comments (clear)

  1. It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by Ignorant+Aardvark · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can we please stop using this "missing link" terminology? It's one of those terms often bandied about by creationists, but it has very little meaning in science. And anyway, everytime we find another transitional fossil the creationists are just going to point to the two gaps on either side of the new transitional and say, "Now there's two missing links! Nyah nyah nyah!" They already don't believe evolution is possible anyway.

    Now as for this find, there's something very important here that the writeup isn't covering. The scientists used their theory to not only predict the existence of such a transitional species, but also where, geologically, it would be located. And guess what - they found what they were looking for exactly where they were looking for it! Talk about predictive power! The predictive power of the theory of evolution is one of its many strengths, and one often overlooked by science-deniers.

    1. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by M0b1u5 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If I could MOD you up, I would!

      Yep - there's no such think as a missing link. There might have been in the past, but morphological properties allow us to make the connections without having to see all the transitional forms in between. As parent noted: Ambulocetus was predicted by evolution, and then it was found pretty much oin the form predicted, with the bony structures of the inner ear as predicted, in the geological strata at the date predicted - so there's nothing new about evolution proving its own efficacy.

      It might be exciting for scientists to actually discover a predicted fossil (well, of course it is!) but us mere mortals don't need to see it to know the truth: we have seen mud skippers on mud flats. We have seen an eel a kilometre from water in the middle of a field, wriggling to the next waterway. We've learned that Inter-tidal zone animals are extremely tough, and can survive long periods of exposure to the extremely hard environment of "air".

      So this isn't exactly surprising.

      What IS surprising, is that there is no image - not even the obligatory 100-pixel-across thumbnail, which links to a lame-ass 200-pixel-across "Large Picture". I am very interested in seeing this thing - so where the bloody hell is it?

      --
      How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
    2. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then do you also believe that Homosapien is the final product of Creation? Are we the zenith of Evolution?

      If you believe that evolution is happening and is continually differentiating species, then where does Homosapien stand in that evolutionary timeline? Are we just another interesting node in the evolutionary history of the Universe, to be supplanted by the homo-superior (not talking about Mac fanatics) species that we will eventually spawn (alternatively, we will die out and another evolutionary lineage will take our place)?

    3. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by GoodbyeBlueSky1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      You know, the grandparent post was a little difficult to understand for me, thank you for translating it into numbers.

      --
      why? forty-two.
    4. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by rk · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Then do you also believe that Homosapien is the final product of Creation? Are we the zenith of Evolution?"

      Well, I don't know about this we business, but I know I am... :-D

    5. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by c_forq · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's like having a 1970 VW Beetle and a 2006 VW Beetle then saying "look, this 1990 VM Beetle is the missing link" then someone else coming and saying "No, this 1980 VW Beetle is the missing link"

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    6. Re: It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Funny

      > > > agree. It's time to stop. It's like saying that 1.5 is the missing link between 1 and 2 and then someone comes along and says "no, there's a gap between 1 and 1.5".

      > > You know, the grandparent post was a little difficult to understand for me, thank you for translating it into numbers.

      > Could someone please translate it into something simpler than numbers? Math hurts my brain.

      Ok, try "no, there's a gap between l and l.S".

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    7. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by aichpvee · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wait, they make Gods that create animals? Mine only keeps hot things hot and cold things cold.

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    8. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by mikeburke · · Score: 5, Informative
      Get them to explain the evolutionary path that lead to creatures having sight.

      Richard Dawkins, Climbing Mount Improbable. pp 138-197.

    9. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by arrrrg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      2. Why did the sea creatures decide to go on land?

      Well, putting the loaded word "decide" aside, the obvious answer is that land represented a huge unexploited ecological niche, with tons of food and no predators.

    10. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by Tatarize · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't even like the term transitional form. It seems to imply that there is a set goal of evolution, that the species is making the transition from this form to that form. In reality, going all the way back to our earliest ancestors you won't find a parent which was a different species than its offspring (some very special cases exist though, but typically never). Everything is a transitional form, from what its ancestors were to what its progeny will become.

      The organism 1.39390 isn't really making the transition from 1.39389 to 1.39391. It's just there.

      If anything is, I am a transitional form between apes and super-humans.

      --

      It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
    11. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by killjoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "What caused the big bang? or What external force was there that caused the big bang?"

      To paraphrase Stephen Hawkings "that's like asking what's north of the north pole". It's also like asking "who created god?".

      --
      evil is as evil does
    12. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by NMerriam · · Score: 2, Informative

      With all due respect, Creationism is not used by many people in the way you use it.

      You are right, there is nothing mutually exclusive about religion and evolution, or divine creation and evolution. There are many who believe in theistic evolution and there is nothing contradictory about it -- that God set up the laws of evolution, or even that he guides the process.

      But Creationism is a word that, right or wrong, is used by both the general public and its most vocal proponents to mean a belief in a literal interpretation of the Biblical account of Genesis, and as such is incompatible with any evolutionary theory.

      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    13. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by flewp · · Score: 2, Funny

      Did his father smell of elderberries?

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    14. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by myth_of_sisyphus · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Well, I'm just an amateur who's done a bit of reading on this so I'll give it a try:

      1. What caused the big bang? or What external force was there that caused the big bang?

      Time was created during the Big Bang so "before" is meaningless. There is no "before" or "after" or "cause" and "effect" if there is no Time.

      Same goes with "external." The whole universe was contained in this ball of energy so there is no "internal" or "external." So the whole question is absurd and moot.

      2. Why did the sea creatures decide to go on land?

      They didn't "decide" to do anything. They were compelled by nature to seek land: to lay eggs, to find food, to mate safely.

      3. Get them to explain the evolutionary path that lead to creatures having sight.

      Here goes: an eye spot that detects light and dark develops into a pit eye, which enables the creature to detect direction. This develops into a Pinhole Eye. This develops a protective layer. The layer develops fluid. Fluid turns into a protein lens. Cornea and Iris separate. Organism is perfected into what we have now. Totally simplified of course but good enough for slashdot!

    15. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      i think a Dawkins quote applies here "'Show me a cultural relativist at thirty thousand feet and I'll show you a hypocrite. Airplanes are built according to scientific principals and they work. They stay aloft and they get you to a chosen destination. Airplanes built to tribal or mythological specifications such as the dummy planes of the Cargo cults in jungle clearings or the bees-waxed wings of Icaraus don't.'"

      There parent post was talking about reality - you are talking about subjective truth relative systems that don't equate.

    16. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by mcasaday · · Score: 4, Funny
      Ignorant Aardvark
      anyway, everytime we find another transitional fossil the creationists are just going to point to the two gaps on either side of the new transitional and say, "Now there's two missing links! Nyah nyah nyah!" They already don't believe evolution is possible anyway.
      cartel
      For me personally, there are just too many gaps. To convince me at least, one fossil/species is not enough.

      Whoa! Speaking of predictive power! Man, you really nailed it!

    17. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by kmcrober · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sweet Zombie Jesus, you have to be kidding. ID is BS. Period. An educated and honest human being has no excuse for pandering to such an invidiously ignorant ideology. A quick reply to your frankly ridiculous bullet points:

      1. Evolution is a biological phenomenon. It has no answer for this question, because this question is not relevant to the evolution of species. Inasmuch as you are indicting all of objective science, I'll simply note that ID has no better answer than consensus physics. "Jesus did it" (or Unnameddesignerwhowewon'tcallGodeventhoughweallkno wthat'swhowe'retalkingabout) is not a testable or falsifiable answer, and is a statement of faith rather than a scientific hypothesis.

      2. Sea creatures did not "decide" to become amphibious. Evolution is not a directed process in which species consider their options and choose one. Nor do species evolve "towards" a higher form. That sort of teleology is, again, not a scientific hypothesis. This question is particularly egregious; even a primary school education should have taught you that creatures don't "decide" on how to evolve. I'll charitably assume that you mean, "How did aquatic species become amphibious and then terrestrial species?" The answer is complicated, because science is hard. Read a book. Preferably one by a real scientist, or at least someone with a biology degree. The shortest and easiest (and therefore oversimplified) version is that organisms capable of thriving in more and more marginal environments reproduced more successfully, preserving and spreading their inheritable successful traits.

      3. Again, this question betrays remarkable ignorance. Darwin proposed an evolutionary chain for the development of the eye well over a century ago, and evolutionary biology has demonstrated that the eye evolved early and often. (There's a pithy quote to that effect, but I can't recall to whom it should be attributed.) Even basic light-sensitive skin cells can confer an advantage, and the development of those cells into complex lens-bearing eyes is hardly the deep and overpowering mystery that hacks like Behe would like credulous fools to believe that it is. Again, please read a book by someone who *isn't* a creationist. You will be amazed how much there is to learn.

      Obviously, I am very contemptuous of your ignorance. But it's more than just that--what is so aggravating to me is the classic creationist arrogance. You assume that your questions are great traps to confound scientists and educated people, when in fact they are literally so foolish that a child could answer them. Do you really think that you know better than specialists who have spent their entire adult lives studying the field? Do you really think that they will be unable to answer your questions? Why haven't you learned the answers to those questions by now yourself? I suspect that the problem may be that you're getting your information from biased sources, such as ID blogs. Someone has badly misled you. But as impoverished as your understanding of the issue is, I'm even more disappointed by the moderators who rated your questions as "interesting." Honestly, the exposure of such rank ignorance on a site geared towards highly educated and presumably intelligent people is disillusioning.

      I need a drink. You need a book. Let's hope we both get what we need.

    18. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by Pseudonym · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Also not speaking for the parent poster, but I'd just like to make a couple of comments from a theological point of view.

      First off, evolution actually fits better with Christian theology than young-earth creation, because it depicts "creation" as an ongoing process rather than a one-off event. It places God in history rather than outside it, which is one of the themes that you'll find running through the Bible.

      Secondly, various biblical verses claim that humans are "made in God's image", or words to that effect. This has caused a lot of theological discussion over the years, such as the way that God has been depicted in art. Should God be represented as a grey-haired old man in the sky? "God is spirit" (see John 4:24), after all.

      Well if God has no body, it makes more sense to say that the part that when we say "made in God's image", we're not talking about our bodies, which we understand to be evolved animal bodies, but rather the "spirit" part.

      This looks like intellectual wankery, much like counting pin-head-dancing angels, and you'd be partly right. But for people who care about this sort of thing, evolutionary theory actually answers a number of long-standing theological problems, and the answers turn out to be much simpler than anyone thought.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    19. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by Ugly+American · · Score: 4, Informative

      Fox has some pictures of the model and sketches accompanying their article.

      --
      For sale: one sig space, gently used. Inquire for details.
    20. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by x2A · · Score: 3, Insightful

      um, no... if you read what he said you'll spot the words "in between", which creates a context which has a start and an end point, making everything in between - transitional stages. His wording was perfectly valid. That doesn't mean that you have to like the term, but it'll take more than not liking it to stop it being valid.

      If you're going to argue about wording, you have to take into account the context which it's used.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    21. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by x2A · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Lessee now, God spent 2 billion years making them, and we've spent 200 years looking for them"

      Um, no, God spent 6 days making them, and that was only 6000 years ago, the universe didn't even exist 2 billion years ago, DUH!!!

      hehehe, how stupid do you feel now?! :-p

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    22. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by cashman73 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I had a debate on evolution vs. creationism/intelligent design once with a born-again Christian. It lasted about 15 minutes. Only after I gave up having gotten frustrated that I felt like I was talking to a brick wall.

    23. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by kmcrober · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I was simply stating that evolution as compared to physics are two different kinds of theories."

      Well, it's a good thing that you're simply stating it, because you'd have a hard time defending that statement as any sort of meaningful conclusion. Your assertion is meaningless. Evolution is not equivalent to "physics" in the sense that you mean. Evolutionary theory is to biology as atomic theory is to physics. Both have been exhaustively proven by legitimate scientists, and both offer crucial insights that underlie their overarching fields. Unfortunately, one of the two theories runs counter to the teachings of a narrow strata of religious zealots, and so suffers from the hands of a particularly aggressive strain of ignorance. But there are crackpots in both fields. Antievolutionists are pretty much the biology version of the Timecube guy.

      Also, and again, your assertion that predictive power is only meaningful if the event being predicted list in the future is just goofy. See, for instance, an entire FAQ entry expressly dealing with this particularly silly idea.

    24. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by x2A · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you think "what caused the big bang" is such a brilliant question to prove the existance of a god, try this one: what created god?

      If you think that everything must have been created, then you can't believe in a god that wasn't created. If, on the other hand, you believe that god can get away without being created, then how can you believe that the big bang can't?

      It's these inconsistancies that leave the sane world laughing at you.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    25. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by binarybum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Taking into account the fact that even mentally or physically disabled humans still reproduce
              We are far from the only species that do this.

      If for some reason the environment gradually changes so that only a fraction of humans can survive, by that time we will all, either by genetics or other technology, be able to survive. That's not good in my opinion since we are already overpopulated in several areas, but I can see it happening

            This faith in technology seems unfounded. It's the year 2006, we should have been vacationing on the moon for at least the last five years. Instead, we could nuke the surface of every continent by noon tomorrow, but meanwhile millions of people on this planet are still dying of things like diarrhea.

      --
      ôó
    26. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by mcc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1. What caused the big bang? or What external force was there that caused the big bang?

      I'm sorry, what does this have to do with evolution versus intelligent design?

      Though the big bang cosmology theory has nothing to do with biology, I would agree that Science in general probably doesn't at current have an answer to what caused the big bang. I've seen a few tentative attempts to answer that question, but I don't think there's a consensus. The thing is though, this doesn't exactly matter. We don't take the big bang seriously because we know or care where big bangs come from; we take it seriously because we observe it's what seems to have happened. Nobody particularly wants the big bang theory to be true. Nobody has a particularly vested philosophical interest in the universe being an explosion. We do, however, have rather a decent lot of evidence concerning the exact way that the universe formed, gathered from looking at the aftermath (i.e.: the universe). That evidence has come to suggest what is called the big bang theory. If this is messy, or strange, or we can't come up with a good explanation as to what caused the cause behind that big bang, there really isn't anything we can do about this. Unlike religion, science doesn't get to decide what happened. Science is forced to go whereever the facts the universe contains takes it. And whether we want them to or not, those facts point at this.

      But of course our inability to explain the Big Bang is quite separate from the status of other theories-- for example, the theory of Evolution-- in which we understand not only what happened, but the mechanism, reasons, and context that brought the thing that happened about.

      2. Why did the sea creatures decide to go on land?

      Oh, that's easy; there was food up there. Plants have been on land since at least 475 million years ago. Creatures have been permanently stationed up there since at least 425 million years ago. It's entirely unreasonable to say those millipedes "decided" to get up on land; this is undue anthropomorphization. The change to settle on land was made possible by mutation, which was a random act not guided by any conscious decision making process. It also seems unlikely to me that the first creatures to leave the ocean had any kind of purposeful goal, since I doubt they had enough sensory equipment to tell what the heck they were even doing.

      More likely the very first time it happened, it went like this: something that could eat algae was crawling along a rock eating algae. This rock happened to be partially in, and partially out of, the ocean. The thing kept crawling along the rock, eating algae, and eventually it reached the interface between the ocean and the atmosphere, and it kept on crawling, and kept on eating algae. Why not? Of course, it may well have died very shortly after that, depending on whether and how long it could survive in the atmosphere. But: if there's all these algae and plants out in the dry world, and nobody's out there eating them or their dead, well heck, free food and no competition. This creates what we think of (it's a metaphor of sorts) as "evolutionary pressure", kind of like how, if we lived in a world where canned food was common but there weren't any can openers, the process of capitalism would create a tremendous metaphorical pressure for somebody to invent and start selling some.

      Now let's say there's not just one thingy that eats algae and one rock where the algae is growing out in the atmosphere. Let's say there's lots and lots of thingies and lots and lots of rocks. The earth is pretty big. If, by coincidence, one of the thingies somewhere on the earth eventually winds up with some genes that, in its little gastropod nervous system, make it feel like it's a really good idea to

    27. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by gowen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But at least they have the honesty to be creationists.
      I've no problem with people who actively and honestly choose to believe their religion over science, as long as they're honest about what they're doing. Pretending their religion is science; now thats dangerous.

      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    28. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by Witchblade · · Score: 4, Informative

      What IS surprising, is that there is no image - not even the obligatory 100-pixel-across thumbnail, which links to a lame-ass 200-pixel-across "Large Picture". I am very interested in seeing this thing - so where the bloody hell is it?

      Picture courtesy of New Scientist.

    29. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Funny

      Not living on the moon for the last 5 years is probably one of the bigest reasons no one will nuke every city by noon tomarrow.

      In other words, I think the only thing stoping us from vacationing on the moon is the fact that too many people think that if governments had a safe place to escape the effects of nukes, they would be used more then they have been. We have the ability, just the desire of those with the ability has seemed to weaken a little.

      Maybe i'm wrong and it is just a fuunding issue?

    30. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by bheer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your post demonstrates quite nicely that religious people do not have a monopoly over faith-based reasoning.

      > Time was created during the Big Bang so "before" is meaningless. There is no "before" or "after" or "cause" and "effect" if there is no Time.

      So you're saying that because your belief system cannot conceive of anything before time t, therefore all times before t are meaningless?

      > Same goes with "external." The whole universe was contained in this ball of energy so there is no "internal" or "external." So the whole question is absurd and moot.

      The moment you posit a ball you also have to admit a bounding surface (to wit, a 3-sphere). And when you admit a bounding surface, shying away from what is on the other side of that boundary is intellectual cowardice.

    31. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by JohnFluxx · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also they could have just been forced. As other pointed out, you can imagine creatures being forced into shallow waters by waves. There they evolve in very shallow water (i'm thinking like a few centimeters). You can imagine creatures that were able to survive seasons where the pool dries up, and from there creatures that move from one pool of water to another. (Someone else pointed out that we know eels can travel large distances across land to move to more water.)
      Just by thinking it's not that hard to come up with a plausible suggestions on why slowly such an advantage would be gained.

    32. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by ignavus · · Score: 4, Funny

      2. Why did the sea creatures decide to go on land?

      To get to the sea on the other side.

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
    33. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by cyclop · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is nothing magic in the evolution of both neural pathways and biomolecules. Brains are made for plasticity: co-evolving a neural pathway along with the sensory organ sounds like the lesser problem to me. While eyes must evolve a plethora of new tissues, differentiation signals etc., neurons are just there, they just need to grow and wire up in the right way. A simple arc reflex of the kind "if light, then avoid" or "if it moves, then attack" probably requires just a few neurons firing (remember Valentino Breitenberg...) , would be extremly easily selected by evolution, and would be of tremendous advantage.

      On the other hand, the evolution of proteins also is nothing magic IMHO, although it is the newest field of evolutive theory, as of today. Proteins are so chemically long and complex that is easy for them to be able to bind almost anything, at least with low specificity. Evolving specificity by selection alone is easy -in fact, it is something readily done every day both in your immune system and in biochemistry labs.

      --
      -- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize /. comments with a sig attached to the end.
    34. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by dajak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't even like the term transitional form. It seems to imply that there is a set goal of evolution, that the species is making the transition from this form to that form.

      Evolution is not teleological, but the search for fossils by scientists guided by the theory of evolution is. History depends on retrodiction to prove the validity of theories, and retrodiction always uses this teleological perspective. As science understands evolution better it is able to predict the existence of more 'missing links', and if most fossils that scientists find are either known or classifiable as a 'missing link' between known species this is very strong evidence for the validity of the theory of evolution.

      The same is true for history in general: the big story creates 'missing links' to search for. Which culture(s) is/are the original source(s) of the Indogermanic languages? Why are there no texts about Jesus that bridge the time of Jesus and the second century? Why are there no records of the early Islamic state in Medina, even though the town has been unharmed and inhabited by Muslims since the days of Mohammed?

      Creationists abuse this teleological terminology to their own ends to misrepresent the status of evolution as a scientific theory, just like they misrepresent the meaning of theory itself (as in 'it is just a theory'). They can get away with it because too many people don't understand scientific method. Scientists should resist the temptation to let ID influence scientific method and terminology, because doing so will only seem to validate the credibility of the Intelligent Design lobby.

    35. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by mapkinase · · Score: 2, Insightful
      right on the money man. My 2 cents: There are experimental sciences that are based on observations that are repeatable in controlled environment eliminating artefacts. There are sciences which are not experimental in the above sense: the hypothesis of macroevolution and Darwin theory are not experimental. History is not experimental. Zoology, botany is not experimental. Any classification study is not experimental. That leaves us pretty much with physical sciences: physics, chemistry and partially biology (mostly molecular biology, less cell biology, physical and chemical biology are ok, of course). Discussing ancient bones won't give much to a religious person (which I am) or to a scientist (which I am too, by education, by profession and by habit). Continuous discussion about evolutionary hypothesis is an exercise in vanity and near-sitedness. Isaac Newton said:
      "I frame no hypotheses."
      . He was also a religious man, as many great scientists before and after him. The science nowadays shifted from universal things to applications not because we know so much about universal things, but because we are too arrogant to humble ourself in the face of unknown and too materialistic not to chase "stuff that matters": laptop cases, free downloads of noise called music, etc., etc., etc.
      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    36. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Which, ironically, doesn't make the question any less valid.

      Or any more meaningful. Or in any way relevant to the topic at hand, which is evolution, not cosmology.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    37. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by meringuoid · · Score: 4, Informative
      Time was created during the Big Bang so "before" is meaningless. There is no "before" or "after" or "cause" and "effect" if there is no Time.

      So you're saying that because your belief system cannot conceive of anything before time t, therefore all times before t are meaningless?

      No. Others have used the 'north pole' analogy. 'Before the Big Bang' is akin to 'north of the north pole': it's simply an empty statement. Not part of the coordinate system. Undefined.

      Here's another puzzle for you: what part of England is a thousand miles from the sea? What do you mean, there's no such place? You mean that just because your belief system can't conceive of places in England further from the sea than distance d, therefore such places are meaningless? Same goes with "external." The whole universe was contained in this ball of energy so there is no "internal" or "external." So the whole question is absurd and moot.

      The moment you posit a ball you also have to admit a bounding surface (to wit, a 3-sphere). And when you admit a bounding surface, shying away from what is on the other side of that boundary is intellectual cowardice.

      A 3-sphere? No, no, no. Nothing of the sort. A 4-sphere, possibly, in which case the 3-surface would be the space of our universe and the radial directions would correspond to the forward and backward time directions (btw, another analogy for you, what's below the centre of the earth? You mean that because your belief system can't imagine locations > r kilometres down, means all depths below r are meaningless?). An infinite flat expanse of 4-space, also quite plausible. And there are other interesting geometries proposed based on quirks of the microwave background; it's still an open problem in cosmology.

      The trouble with these discussions is that it's rather hard to speak meaningfully about these things without using general relativity. Thus you get these rather woolly analogies, translating the clear and precise equations into ambiguous and inaccurate English.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    38. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by Moby+Cock · · Score: 3, Funny

      who created god?

      Easy! Man.

      Heh

    39. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by tgv · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Playing with words is what it is. One writer uses a different meaning of the word "time" than the other. The fact that physics cannot define time without a universe, has no meaning for a normal person who experiences time as a given, a priori, absolute. Saying that it is undefined doesn't take away the legimitate question what existed before the Big Bang. "No idea" would have been a better answer than "it didn't exist".

      All other arguments, such as "what is north of the north pole", are not related to this problem. They describe other definition problems.

      I think the original poster would be happy if you could answer him why the big bang occurred when there was no time. If you can distangle cause and effect from time, he might concur.

    40. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Informative
      The fact that physics cannot define time without a universe, has no meaning for a normal person who experiences time as a given, a priori, absolute.

      That's just too bad for the normal person. Time doesn't work like you think, that's just a plain fact. Read up on your relativity. Time really does vary in just the way Einstein described. Time is not a given, a priori, absolute, it's just one more feature of the universe. All other arguments, such as "what is north of the north pole", are not related to this problem. They describe other definition problems.

      They describe definition problems that are quite closely analogous to the one at question. Someone with a naive idea of a flat, x-y Cartesian coordinate system would be confused by the idea that there is no 'north of the North Pole': is there a wall there? A barrier followed by some kind of unplace? What's beyond the North Pole?

      Similarly, someone with a pre-Einsteinian notion of how time works has a problem. They think - as your 'normal person' does - that time just is. But that doesn't make it so. In the geometry of the classical Big Bang, the zero point - the singularity - really is very similar to that of the North Pole.

      However, all this is somewhat academic, since quantum effects come into play before we get to that point. Instead of the smooth curvature of spacetime Einstein gives us, we have a boiling froth; quite what that does to causality near the zero point is not well understood at all.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    41. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by bheer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So you're saying that if we both keep walking north, and we reach the north pole, I'll be compelled to stop by the fact that there's no further northwardness

      You will be compelled to stop because your frame of reference is the planet surface. For anyone with interplanetary or interstellar transport, North would be quite relative (of course, such a being would also not use ambiguous terms like 'North').

      Similarly, I'm quite willing to concede that time 'started' at the big bang[1] -- for the three-dimensional universe we observe. However, to say that this makes the concept of 'before the big bang' meaningless is quite silly. Beyond comprehension? yes. Meaningless? no.

      For example, did the indirectly observed energy->matter conversion we call the big bang create only one closed system (our universe) or did it create several, each with its own particle zoo and physical constants? How can we be certain of the answer either way (short of communication with a parallel universe, which would be impossible if the universe is a closed system)? If it did, what frames of reference will allow us to discuss multiple universes intelligently?

      Another one: Where did this 'ball of energy' come from? Did we just replace Genesis with a "In the beginning was the void/And ${Unknown_Entity} said lo/And a superdense ball of energy came into being/and promptly exploded into a particle zoo"?

      _Why_ does this 'ball of energy' exist at all?

      I believe it was Feinman who once said that to do Physics, you must have the curiousity of a child, because a child will ask the most fundamental questions, and the more fundamental the questions get, the harder the answers!

      [1] although IMHO our understanding of time is too elementary for this assumption. However it seems a reasonable assumption to make for the purposes of this discussion.

    42. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by bheer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > Time doesn't work like you think, that's just a plain fact.

      Stop telling me how I think :-)

      Yes, I understand that 'time' has interesting properties in this universe. And I understand how the Big Bang implies the beginning of time (call it t0, or t-nought). However those who say 'before t0 is meaningless' either do not understand English semantics, are being misleading or are the victims (or perpetrators) of Big Bang Dogma, as I explain below.

      > A barrier followed by some kind of unplace? What's beyond the North Pole?

      As I said in another post, North of the North Pole is meaningless only if you are planet-bound. (And if you are not, North is an ambiguous term anyway.)

      Similarly, when someone asks about 'before t0', _semantically_ it is clear he is shifting the frame of reference to _outside_ our universe. This is something our minds can do easily, even though Physics has very little to say on the subject because it has no data to prove or disprove anything outside our universe's frame of reference[1]. So with today's technology and scientific understanding, 'before t0' is a question better left for philosophers.

      [1] One could argue that there is nothing outside our universe, hence it is meaningless to shift our frame of reference to outside our universe. To which I say, the fact that there is nothing outside our universe is unprovable either way, hence its meaningless-ness is easily disputable.

      To summarize: In our universe, time began at the big bang. This does make 'What happened before the big bang' a meaningless question, it merely forces you to re-consider your frames of reference.

      Honestly, early 21st century science hubris is just as amusing as the 18th or 19th centuries, when they ran about smug and satisfied about there theory of phlogistons and corpuscular light.

    43. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're thinking of the fundies. Catholics don't subscribe to a literal read of the bible.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    44. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by jc42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      History depends on retrodiction to prove the validity of theories, and retrodiction always uses this teleological perspective.

      One picky point: The terms "retrodiction" and "postdiction" seem to be in competition. The paired prefixes "pre-" and "post-" would say that "prediction" and "postdiction" are the better pair. And "postdiction" is one char shorter, which will probably save you several seconds of typing over your lifetime. ;-)

      Anyway, whichever you call it, this is a good example. One of the creationists bogus claims is that paleontology can't make predictions, because they can't find fossils from the future. This is a parody, of course, but it's the essence of the logical fallacy.

      The answer to this, as with other non-experimental sciences such as astronomy, is that evolutionary biology can't make predictions per se, but it can make postdictions. And in this case, that's what the scientists did.

      They had a pretty good estimate of when the first vertebrates moved onto land, roughly between 350 and 400 million years. They made the "prediction" that if we could find strata that date to the middle of that period, where the original terrain was shallow water along shorelines, we should find fossils of the intermediate forms. The fossils should look like lobe-finned fish, but the lobes should be extended into limbs that could function somewhat poorly on land. This would allow the critters to crawl out of the water to escape predators, at a time when there weren't any large predators on land.

      Consulting with geologists turned up just such strata, unfortunately on Ellesmere Island. The biologists went there during the brief only-slightly-horrible summer, and found just the sort of transitional fossils that they expected, before the weather returned to its normal deep freeze.

      This is a classical "postdiction", i.e., a prediction of what you'll find if you dig in such-and-such a place. As such, it's goood support for the biologists' understanding of how vertebrates colonized the land. It's not proof, of course, because scientists generally don't do proof. Rather, it's a demo of the predictive power of evolutionary theory.

      And there's really no teleology here. Tiktaalik wasn't trying to evolve into us. It was probably just trying to get out of the reach of large predators. The ones that did this the best survived to leave offspring. Maybe they were our ancestors, though these particular individuals probably weren't.

      Also, media hype aside, it's not any sort of startling discovery. We already had other fossils of fragments of transitional forms. But these are some of the best such fossils that we have. Some of them are nearly complete. And they're pretty much what we expected, based on the earlier partial fossils of similar critters.

      These fossils are destined to be textbook illustrations for the next couple decades. And some paleontologists are destined to spend many of their future Junes on Ellesmere Island. They'll probably be making jokes about how global warming isn't happening fast enough for them.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    45. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by KarateExplosions · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What caused the big bang?

      Last night I was almost asleep when I heard a loud crashing noise from downstairs. I went down to see what had happened, and a window was broken. But there was no evidence of what had caused the broken window.

      Therefore, I came to the only logical ID conclusion: The window had always been broken, and flying unicorns exist.

    46. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by at_slashdot · · Score: 2, Funny

      [i]If anything is, I am a transitional form between apes and super-humans.[/i]

      Since you are on Slashdot most likely you are just an evolutionary dead-end.

      --
      "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -- Prof. Dumbledore
    47. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by itchy92 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm not trying to start a flamewar, but I'd like to reply to your post. The views expressed are mine, and may not conform to any predefined set of views.

      The reason that I favor evolution to creationism is that it demands explanation. My understanding of creationism (admittedly very basic, but unbiased)-- and indeed, most religious perspectives-- is that there is no answer to be found. A higher power did whatever it did, and we can never know its nature, so let's just accept it. This is not the attitude that has brought forth all the technological advancement over the span of human history. Why would a higher power "create" us with such a disposition for logic, and then expect us to deny it?

      Evolution keeps us looking for that "missing link", to further solidify the theory with each new example. It isn't satisfied to say, "well, life originated in water, and moved to land, and now here we are"; it constantly refines itself, seeks new possibilities, and attempts to prove or disprove those possibilities.

      and wondering how that is actually going to cause a new species, rather than just a more specialised version within the same species

      You should extend that idea over a few thousand or million iterations, and see what you end up with. Most evolution is attributed to mutations, so a drastic change may have occured in one generation, or in 500... a stray group of cells (a prehistoric cancer of sorts) may have had the ability to process air and extract oxygen, and eventually beget a set of lungs for the creature. The creatures emerge from water, and those with larger fins survive, as they have greater motility and can eat more food. Those fins gain strength, and can eventually propel them forward consistently, eventually begetting legs. And so on, and so on...

      I concede that evolution may not be correct. Perhaps a creator just created everything to look like it could have evolved from other things. But given our species' great capacity for reason, our defining characteristic, doesn't it seem more logical to follow the path of evidence, rather than of belief?

      --
      Slashdot: News for nerds. Stuff tha-- MICRO$OFT IS THE DEVIL!!1
    48. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by geordieboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      evolution does have some merits, though basically the only proof that you can give for it is that it's so 'obvious' (and I find it sad that people just accept it's true because it just feels like it should work, rather than thinking about the individual little changes that would have to occur, and wondering how that is actually going to cause a new species, rather than just a more specialised version within the same species)

      It's not necessarily obvious, but the only mechanism you need for evolution to occur is for small heritable variations to occur at some rate, some fraction of which are slightly (even infinitesimally) beneficial given the animal's environment (in the sense that they increase, even infinitesimally, the probability of the animal passing on its genes, after all effects of the variation are taken into account). It's not hard to see that if this occurs, the frequency of the beneficial genes will increase with time, leading to adaptation to the environment. It's also not hard to see that this mechanism certainly exists in nature, as we know from genetics.

      I just think the fundamental "aha" moment of evolutionary theory is realizing that this leads inevitably to adaptation over time, to an arbitrary extent. There is no problem with new species arising, this happens when the some subgroup evolves its reproductive machinery to such an extent that it can no longer mate with other groups in the population. (Reading Dawkins is possibly the best way to initiate the "aha" moment if you haven't already experienced it).

      I think the creationists are either too confused or lacking in logical faculties to grasp the basic mechanism, or in some kind of denial like the ID people where they postulate imagined barriers like irreducible complexity.

      --
      The world is everything that is the case
    49. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by stud9920 · · Score: 2, Informative
      The question is certainly valid. Just because we lack an answer doesn't mean that we automatically assume OMFG it was GOD and JESUS!

      400 years ago we couldn't explain lightening either. That doesn't make lightening mystical either. Hell, we couldn't explain germ theory or even a basic rough approximation of gravity. The lack of an explanation RIGHT NOW isn't proof of anything other than that we don't know the answer yet.

      That said, if you are dying for a scientific answer, string theory has thrown out some tantalizing theories involving other exotic realities crashing together. I can't do much justice explaining them. The Elegant Universe offers up some musings from theoretical physics much better than I can.

      In my opinion, building up a "God of Holes" is a rather sad and pathetic way to conduct religion. Religion should be something that you take on faith that describes how you should live in this world and prepare for the next. Religion shouldn't be something that you use to plug every and any gap in your preexisting knowledge. As history has shown very succinctly, a "God of Holes" tends to find itself quickly getting amputated by science on a regular basis.

      If nothing else, your "God of Holes" is likely insulting to God himself. You have a brain, use it. Maybe God did create the universe, or maybe a god created something more ancient and fundamental that goes back farther than even the big bang. If God set in forth a motion of events to lead to this precise outcome, instead of trying to crudely plug the gaps in YOUR understanding of His universe by simply declaring it mysticism, try and understand how he built the universe.

      More than one theoretical physicist has taken a look at how our universe has been put together and found it so elegant and beautiful that it has left them with a belief that at the very end there exists a higher power. That sure as shit doesn't mean that every time they run into a question they can't instantly answer they throw their hands up and declare that God did it. Instead, they press forward and trying and truly understand God's universe and its deepest inner working.

      Ironically enough, if God did create the universe, a theoretical physicist is probably much closer to understanding the mind of God than your average bible thumping nut job whose eyes bleed every time evolution is mentioned. While the bible thumping nut job runs around like an idiot declaring the world a couple thousand years old and turning their mind off completely to understanding the universe, a physicist is carefully studying the most basic rules and laws of the universe. In a sense, the physicist is studying God's work and perhaps gaining some insight into the mind of God.
      Repeat after me :
      Then: causation or event chronology
      Than: comparison
    50. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by aprilsound · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Then do you also believe that Homosapien is the final product of Creation? Are we the zenith of Evolution?
      I wouldn't be surpirised if humans in millions of years (assuming we survive this long), are nearly identical to humans today. Society kind of puts a stick in the spokes of naturual selection after all. There is probably a little bit of genetic variation to be gained from inter-racial breeding, but for the most part, humans are going to resist bredding with any significant genetic-variants and society will continue to allow the 'non-fittest' to continue breeding and intermingling with the 'fittest'.

      I'm not trying to be a class warrior here or claim that we should prevent the 'less fit' from breeding. I'm just guessing that the larger part of the human evolution will be societal evolution from this point forward.

    51. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by fbjon · · Score: 2, Interesting
      it seems to me that we only see 'complete' species in the world today
      That's because you're not old enough. I see that the stars in the sky never move significantly. Perhaps it's just a facade, or should I wait a few thousand years and see what happens first?

      Also, the Bible is certainly not the only old book that still applies to humans and society. In fact, there's no divine power needed for its survival: it's a popular book/story, therefore it can last for 8000 years, because it keeps getting passed around. It's not magic or coincidence, its relevance is the only way you could be reading it in this day and age!

      'Relevance' can be highly subjective, though.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    52. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by AoT · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think you've got a fundamental confusion with what evolution is, what the theory says and how it works.

      why are there still some species left that are considered lower down on the evolutionary chain?

      There is no lower or higher on the evolutionary chain, nor is there transitionary forms. There are species which exist now, species which have existed and those which may exist. There are species that are older, "lower", because they have proved fit for their environments. There are species that evolved later, normally not a direct line of decent, that are fit for *their* environment. I don't know if you've read a good book on evolution but it covers this, pretty basic stuff.

    53. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      C-14 dating is not used on samples expected to be millions of years old. it is good for pegging ages in the thousands or tens of thousands of years range. There are other isotopic dating schemes which are more accurate over the longer terms (and able to compensate for the "how much of element X was in the original sample" problem) which are used in the millions to billions of years range.

      You carbon-date mummies, pottery, and mastodon bones. You wouldn't carbon-date fossils.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    54. Re:It's not a missing link, and nice predictions by plunge · · Score: 2, Informative

      Dawkins acn't be blamed for not covering every concievable single subject in one book, especially one written for laypeople. Discussing bio-chemistry is pretty hard when you can't guarantee that your audience knows much about chemistry, cell cycles, genetics, etc.

      However, I must say that I find the incredulity a bit weird. It would be strange if light sensitivity _wasn't_ part of the nervous system. After all, lots of organic chemicals are sensitive to, and react differently to light. Those reactions would be a quite and predictable natural trait to select for.

      "Also, Dawkins never really gets around to addressing the issue of how complicated protein molecules like hemoglobin could have come into being through only random mutations and non-random natural selection, an question which, as Dawkins himself mentions, a number of people have some problems with."

      Again, you expect him to explain every single issue you can think of in a popular book, without using chemistry? The evolution of hemoglobin has been discussed extensively, but since it's a chemically complex protein, understanding it takes a heck of a lot prior knowledge of things like protein folding and interactive bio-chem.

  2. Remain strong! by scapermoya · · Score: 5, Funny

    Clearly, His Noodliness is testing us.

    --
    Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch.
  3. Please, don't use "missing link". by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fossil record is (and always will be) full of holes for the simple reason that not everything gets preserved (and some environments make preservation extremely unlikely), and there's no "magic fossil" that's needed in order to make the big puzzle fall together.

    For the most part, the big puzzle is already together. Yeah, there are lots of areas where we'd like to have more detail, but "missing link" implies that we're looking for some sort of Holy Grail, and are in a jam without it.

    That simply ain't the way it is.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  4. The thing most interesting to me about this by mcc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This was a predicted, sought find. This wasn't just like, some people found a fossil and was like "wow! this fills the gap in a missing link between reptiles and fish!". They set out to find something like this, targeted the most likely places in which to find it, and actually found what they were looking for. A quote of a Ahlberg and Clack article from the Pharyngula blog (lots of information there):
    First, it demonstrates the predictive capacity of palaeontology. The Nunavut field project had the express aim of finding an intermediate between Panderichthys and tetrapods, by searching in sediments from the most probable environment (rivers) and time (early Late Devonian). Second, Tiktaalik adds enormously to our understanding of the fish-tetrapod transition because of its position on the tree and the combination of characters it displays.
    I think that's just neat.
    1. Re: The thing most interesting to me about this by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      > This was a predicted, sought find. This wasn't just like, some people found a fossil and was like "wow! this fills the gap in a missing link between reptiles and fish!". They set out to find something like this, targeted the most likely places in which to find it, and actually found what they were looking for.

      A similar thing can be seen on a NOVA episode that they air now and then, where a palentologist used existing fossils in the sequence of whale ancestry to estimate the date of an intermediate form, consulted geologists re where to find exposed land that was the bottom of a shallow sea at that date, visited the site (now a desert) recommended by the geologists, and found vertebrae for the predicted species lying exposed in the sand. Excavations uncovered more complete specimins showing the predicted features of "nose" and legs.

      > I think that's just neat.

      Way neat.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  5. IANAEB by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 5, Funny

    I Am Not An Evolutionary Biologist -- So talking about this makes me feel a bit like a fish out of water.

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    1. Re:IANAEB by dteichman2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      How can you be a non-evolutionary biologist? To be a biologist, one must understand say... DNA, which then has the whole "gene thing." Organisms with DNA that codes for beneficial traits live on, and the rest die. Evolution.

      --


      Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
  6. Re:I found him too! by mh101 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Funny... following your link to "The Missing Link" says "The page cannot be found." So I guess that means it's still missing? :)

    --
    Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
  7. Intelligent Design or Creationists? by quantaman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "As such, it will be a blow to proponents of intelligent design, who claim that the many gaps in the fossil record show evidence of some higher power."

    This certainly goes against creationism but afaik the only difference between evolution and intelligent design is that intelligent design claims statistics is insufficient and a divine guiding hand was required, wouldn't this missing link be required for either model as both need to go from water to land?

    --
    I stole this Sig
    1. Re: Intelligent Design or Creationists? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > "As such, it will be a blow to proponents of intelligent design, who claim that the many gaps in the fossil record show evidence of some higher power."

      > This certainly goes against creationism but afaik the only difference between evolution and intelligent design is that intelligent design claims [...]

      The proponents of ID are all over the spectrum with respect to their views on evolution. Some are YECs of the most narrow sort; others think biologists basically have things right except for an occasional event of intelligent intervention.

      > wouldn't this missing link be required for either model as both need to go from water to land?

      No, intelligent design is such a handwave that it fits any model and any observation, so long as you preserve the claim that "somebody" had a hand in things somewhere along the way. Since it doesn't put any constraints on what that "somebody" can or would do, you can't make any predictions. For example, the YEC subset of IDers wouldn't accept that anything went "from water to land" -- they think all species were created pretty much as is.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  8. Re:God vs Darwin by dteichman2 · · Score: 2, Funny
    --


    Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
  9. A better missing link by corngrower · · Score: 5, Informative

    This link to bbc news includes a picture of the fossil.

    1. Re:A better missing link by mapkinase · · Score: 2, Informative

      More links:

      Another drawing, significantly different from the one at BBC site (see parent post).

      A "News" article in Nature, featuring the mentioned picture. Disclaimer: by the content and style, Nature News did not go far beyond BBC News.

      And finally, the couple of articles that should have been referenced in the top message in the first place.

      The only excuse the samzenpus has is that he probably did not have access to those articles or decided not to give the links out of fear of being called "exclusive snob". :-) Well, the academy scientists and subscribers will see the links.

      I have to confess that my assessment that was based on the picture of the fossil in BBC was wrong. I jumped the gun out of my personal bias against macroevolutionary hypothesis. I apologize. I wrongfully assumed that fossil does not indicate to the elevated nose or the jawline. Indeed, the scull has a remarkable similarity to a crocodile scull.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  10. Pictures by lifeisgreat · · Score: 5, Informative
    Since the write-up lacked anything flashy, here's an article from the Nature journal about the find.

    Doesn't look very tasty.

    1. Re:Pictures by whitehatlurker · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also Scientific American's article has a couple of pictures. AND National Geographic has a write-up on it.

      --
      .. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
  11. Missing link by irish_spic · · Score: 5, Funny

    Heh, there's lots of missing links here in canada - calling each other hosers and swilling cheap beer, eh.

    --
    A truth that's told with bad intent, Beats all the lies you can invent. -- William Blake
  12. Re:Queue the "Creationists are idiots!" posts by 1984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have a question that I've never really understood the answer to: why is creationism as a belief incompatible with science (including evolution)? Whatever science comes up with, one can always back out and say that the system as a whole was created by an omnipotent external creator. So what I don't get terribly well is why all the fuss about evolution in the first place, unless it's only dogma that's important?

    (For me anyway, it's the notion that dogma, existing power structures and beliefs which are important -- rather than any serious notion of consistent broader philosophy -- that's scary.)

  13. Re: Queue the "Creationists are idiots!" posts by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > I can hear the naturalists clacking away at their keyboards in glee with the "smoking gun" that evolution has finally been "proven" and that the creationists will have to sit in stunned silence under the weight of the evidence finally presented.

    To the extent that anything is ever "proven" in the natural sciences, evolution was "proven" well over 100 years ago.

    And of course, nobody expects creationists to sit in stunned (or any other kind of) silence, regardless of what evidence is presented.

    > Let's not oversimplify this discussion. Thoughtful, intelligent people on both sides of this debate have passion, and conviction.

    Yes, but one side has facts and a theory, whereas the other has a well-funded propaganda machine and a lot of self-appointed spiritual advisors telling the ignorant masses that they'll be tortured for all eternity if they let the facts affect their conclusions.

    > As a creationist, I welcome advances in knowledge that arise from investigation of the physical realm. I respect men (and women) of science, and applaud this new discovery - but that changes not my conviction that a creator made the planet as it is.

    To paraphrase the old saying, facts won't dissuade anyone from a position that isn't built on facts to begin with.

    > There are enough complexities and challenges with the idea of evolution as a means of speciation that one more discovery does not put a nail in the coffin of creationism.

    Except as a religious/social/political issue, creatinism was nailed back in the nineteenth century.

    > I'm not looking to start a debate on this issue, but I am hoping to raise the level of discussion by respectfully asking those who would use this occasion to ridicule people with whom they disagree to please refrain. This is a complex issue and cheap shots are not productive. I will refrain from ridicule as well. Deal?

    For my money, people who express ridiculous views are entitled to all the ridicule they reap. (Unless they're insane, in which case we should show a little sympathy for their plight.)

    If you would care to identify any of the creationism evangelists who are insane, it would help things alone.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  14. Doesn't prove evolution by MarkByers · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Flying Spaghetti Monster just put it there to confuse us.

    --
    I'll probably be modded down for this...
  15. Open mouth, insert foot by JetJaguar · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Has it occurred to you that in making this very statement, that you are, in fact, doing exactly what you accuse your opponents of? You implore posters from taking cheap shots, and yet your first sentence is exactly that. Right off the bat you are assasinating the character of those who disagree with you with statements like this:

    I can hear the naturalists clacking away at their keyboards in glee with the "smoking gun" that evolution has finally been "proven" and that the creationists will have to sit in stunned silence under the weight of the evidence finally presented.

    As a scientist, creationism isn't on my radar at all, and quite frankly, I don't give a rat's ass whether or not you believe it. What I do care about, is people such as yourself misrepresenting both science and religion as something that they are not, claiming you know things that you clearly do not. And then blaming good scientists for your own ignorance and lack of insight.

    The fact is, evolution has been satisfactorily proven to work. Creationism and intelligent design are DOA, and the only open question about these idiotic ideas, is how much damage are they going to do to both science and religion before they finally go down for good.

    --

    Shop Smart, Shop S-mart!

  16. FYI by prof_peabody · · Score: 4, Funny

    m = milli = 10^-3
    M = mega = 10^6

    325m years = ~ 118.6 days

    Missing link may be a bit young don't you think?

    1. Re: FYI by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Funny
      m = milli = 10^-3
      M = mega = 10^6

      325m years = ~ 118.6 days

      Missing link may be a bit young don't you think?
      That's the difference between a "Missing link" and a "missing link".

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  17. Wish granted! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Funny

    > Flame away diephobic moderators...flame away.

    You're a fookin returd.

    Oh, and your post was really stupid too.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:Wish granted! by Fookin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hey now, don't bring me into this. I was just minding my business, watching the circus from the sidelines.

  18. Re:The Great Transmogrification by Attrition_cp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Actually eating spaghetti and noodles in general is approved, sort of like going to communion.

    --
    Touched By His Noodley Appendage.
  19. Re:Queue the "Creationists are idiots!" posts by aussie_a · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are enough complexities and challenges with the idea of evolution as a means of speciation that one more discovery does not put a nail in the coffin of creationism.

    Actually, it is impossible for any nails to be placed in the coffin of creationism, because it isn't a theory that is able to be proven or disproven. However creationist proponents have placed creationism in opposition to evolution, so this can place a nail in the coffin of that use of creationism.

    Oh, and creationists who claim that evolution and creationism have equal evidence backing up each theory (or even better, that there is more evidence to back up creationism then there is to back up evolution) ARE idiots. I'm always happy to hear evidence that helps prove creationism, but I've yet to actually see any. I've seen logical thoughts (as in "but how could it have happened? it's all so complex" although they do rely on premises that can be neither proven nor disproven themselves), but no direct real evidence (for instance, evolution was just a thought, a theory, until fossil records were discovered that helped prove it).

    Respectfully
    aussie_a

  20. Sorry, not a missing link by DumbSwede · · Score: 5, Funny

    You can only find a "link", not a "missing link." Once found it is no longer missing.
    In much the same way as a hot water heater is unneeded since hot water is already hot.
    /attempted humor

  21. Oh, how nice of them by thetelepath · · Score: 2

    I like how the first thing on their minds is giving us a blow-by-blow play of evolution vs. intelligent design. (See third paragraph) Is it too much to ask for a story that just says, "Hey look, we found this cool fossil that seems to coincide properly with the theory of evolution in a way that we haven't seen before" without bringing up how stupid intelligent design is? Hasn't it crossed anyone's mind that the existence of evolutionary changes might not play any role whatsoever in the proving or disproving of the existence of a higher power? I mean, it's God we're talking about here. He could've created the birds from the fish, then the land creatures from the birds by means of evolution like he created woman from man, if he wanted to. Or we could be trapped in a strange time loop and the fossils we keep digging up are really genetic experiments of creatures that couldn't survive and died out in the future. Actually, I'd better claim copyright on that idea so I can write a crappy mini-series for the sci-fi channel. Anyway, the point is that evolution really is still a theory. Granted, it seems like a pretty good one so far, but it's not exactly provable without either time travel or the witnessing of the generation of a new species in our midst.

    Okay, so I get that you're just trying to "save" all of those crazy fundamentalists from believing in something that doesn't seem scientifically viable. Just thought I'd let you know that making fun of them doesn't really help your case. Though what really annoys me are the people who are into Christianity for purely political reasons and make the rest look like fools when they go up to bat for some foolhardy idea (a la Kansas), but that's a whole other discussion.

    --
    Because it's about grace. It really is about grace.
  22. An elaboration. by Descalzo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Since I didn't bring it up, and you didn't ask me, I can't really answer for that other guy, but here's a thought: We take what we know: God exists, evolution happens, etc., and try to put it together in a way that works. Not being a scientist, I wouldn't know how to do that. But without a prophet to tell us how it went down, we have to make inferences and assumptions using imperfect tools such as the Bible and the fossil record. That sounds like a cop-out answer to me, but I don't know what else to say. I guess when it comes down to it, without any authority, modern-day religion can't really add anything to what was revealed thousands of years ago, so I guess religion doesn't really have anything new to add right now, just try to reconcile what they know with what they are discovering.

    I think one of the effects of this is that it is making religious people stop and ask themselves what they really believe, and why they believe it.

    As for what I think, I like to think that He put it together personally, in a way that is portrayed symbolically in Genesis. But, like I say, without some more revelation, we will never have anything more to add to what the scriptures say.

    I just realized: without revelation, creationists are in the same place as the evolutionists would be if they stopped finding fossils long ago. All the creationists can do is reinterpret the data (scriptures) they already have.

    Note: Please forgive my generalized language (creationists, evolutionists, etc.). I kind of did it on purpose, because I think most of us have the tendency to lump people into one extreme or another.

    --
    I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
    1. Re:An elaboration. by Sique · · Score: 3, Funny

      So you are saying, that evolution researchers have an unfair advantage, because they not only have a theory (evolution), but also facts (fossil record) to prove the theory is sound?

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    2. Re:An elaboration. by deong · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just realized: without revelation, creationists are in the same place as the evolutionists would be if they stopped finding fossils long ago. All the creationists can do is reinterpret the data (scriptures) they already have.

      The fossil record is a nice benefit for evolutionary biologists, but the molecular record is sufficient to infer evolution beyond the level of doubt considered scientifically insignificant. So even without fossils, the fact that the DNA of all living organisms appears to fit so beautifully into a tree structure provides powerful evidence for a common ancestor.

    3. Re:An elaboration. by dajak · · Score: 2, Informative

      Creationists have facts, too. Just look at humanity as it exists today. How could pedophiles have evolved (there's no evolutionary advantage to having sex with someone who is too young to bear offspring). How can the fetish of stomping small creatures to death have come into being through evolution? No, humans as they exist today could only have been the product of a cruel and twisted god.

      Do you seriously not see the reproductive advantage of killing any rat, mouse, spider, scorpion, ant etc. on sight? I have delegated that task to my cat, because I am smarter than my ancestors, but I think it's a good instinct to have for a relatively stupid species with very vulnerable offspring and a habit of storing food.

      I don't really see how trying to impregnate unsuitable candidates would be a disadvantage. Since we are not very good at judging sexual maturity the pedophile might get lucky, certainly if he is a low ranking male in a chimp-like hierarchy. Many animals (dogs, rabbits) also mate with everything that moves.

      More generally: evolution selects genes, and morality is not the criterium for selection. "Fitness" is also a moving target in a changing environment. There is no way we can make a connection between genes and complex behaviours like pedophilia or killing. We don't know whether there is a specific genetic factor at all, and we can't judge how this genetic factor works out positively in other circumstances.

  23. Re: Too many gaps by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > If evolution, as they say, takes so long, there WOULD be fossils that we COULD conclusively show are directly linked to other species - without missing links - and they would be found just as easily as dinosaur fossils are.

    What makes you think that?

    What is the probability that an organism will become fossilized, survive erosion and other hazards for millions of years, and then actually be found by someone? I.e., how good a sample do you think the fossil record is.

    How easy would it be for you to find your own ancestors' bones going back 100 generations? Or just 10. What do you conclude from any gaps in that record?

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  24. teleology by Stalyn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Assume this animal uses oxygen as an energy source for chemical reactions. Traditionally it retrieved oxygen through the water. Yet after some time its lungs grew the capacity to retrieve oxygen through the air. It would seem that there would have to be some sort of informational exchange in order to determine air was a candidate source for oxygen. How did this happen?

    The ancestors of this animal most likely lived in shallow water and perhaps came into contact with air all the time. It might have been able to jump out of the water for a very short period of time. Yet in order to evolve lungs that could take advantage of oxygen in the atmosphere there must have been some informational exchange.

    I think some will argue that there doesn't have to be any information involved because random genetic change and natural selection will over time evolve a lung that can retrieve oxygen through the air. The major presupposition is that the genetic code that allows for breathing on land is implicit in genetic change. The group of possible genetic alterations included at least one genetic sequence which would result in land breathing capabilities.

    If genetic change is truly random then it could have possibly happened somewhere that was not close to land. Therefore such a change would have not been selected. Then either the space of possible genetic changes is rather small (unlikely) or there is an informational element to evolution.

    --
    The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
    1. Re: teleology by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > It would seem that there would have to be some sort of informational exchange in order to determine air was a candidate source for oxygen. How did this happen?

      For an intuitive notion of "information exchange", evolution extracts "information" from the environment by trial and error.

      Crudely put, if evolution tries A and B, and discovers that A works and B doesn't, it has extracted one bit of information from the environment. (Actually not always a whole bit due to redundancies between A and B, and redundant trials, and the fact that "works" is often a matter of degree rather than a boolean predicate. But you get the idea.)

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  25. Re:Can we stop with the stupid comments? by scapermoya · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stupid comments? The MS bashers do what they do in all seriousness, my comment was a joke.
    I don't know of many real scientists that believe that there is actually a debate, they know religion and science are completely seperate issues. However, when Christians inject their beliefs into public education systems that serve everyone's children, thats where the "at odds" comes in. I don't know what you mean by evolution on the "cosmic level", but there is absolutely no debate when it comes to evolution being the means by which each species arose from those before it. If you are one of those people that buys into the "it's only a theory!!!1111", then you arent a scientist. Science is a whole lot of "theories", but theories in a scientific sense are not the same as theories in a conventional layman sense. If evolution was a "hypothesis", then there would be room to argue, but in science if something is a theory, there is a lot of evidence to support it.
    Anyone who takes any part of the Bible or any other religious text, especially those written before, oh lets say soap, was invented, has no place in science and especially no place in public educational policy. If you want your kid taught that the Earth is 6,000 years old, Noah put T. Rex on his ark, and that people who carbon date fossils have an agenda, there are plenty of private schools for you.

    --
    Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch.
  26. Re:Queue the "Creationists are idiots!" posts by mvdw · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I can hear the naturalists clacking away at their keyboards in glee with the "smoking gun" that evolution has finally been "proven" and that the creationists will have to sit in stunned silence under the weight of the evidence finally presented.

    And this sentence just goes to show that you don't get it. Evolution can never be "proved". Like any scientific theory, it can only be falsified or strengthened by further evidence. A scientific theory of anything physical (ie, not abstract) can never be proved to be true - that is one of the essences of science. Even the most seemingly elementary of scientific theories over the years have been falsified, and subsequently modified to accommodate new evidence, and even the qualification of physical vs abstract theories isn't strictly true (there are whole branches of mathematics dealing with whether or not the rest of mathematics is based on sound foundations).

    Neither true Creationism nor its bastard cousin Intelligent Design can be falsified. They are not scientific theory.

  27. Re: Too many gaps by Hannah+E.+Davis · · Score: 2, Informative

    The probability of a fossil forming is actually pretty slim. First of all, the organism needs to be at least partially solid -- bones do the trick, or a nice big shell, but squishy invertebrates, for example, are extremely unlikely to leave any trace of their passing. The organism also needs to die under the correct conditions and stay there relatively undisturbed for millions of years until human scientists get around to digging it up.

    Given that billions and billions of species have existed on this planet, it's not surprising that we've found some fossils, most notably those of the dinosaurs (ie. big, numerous boney things that lived at a time when Earth was conveniently swampy), but that doesn't mean that there's even the slightest possiblity that we'll ever find the remains of everything that ever existed.

    Also, I've read about scientists observing evolution in action. Sure, they're only going to be able to observe relatively small changes in their lifetimes, but that doesn't mean that the changes didn't happen... though they obviously don't have a complete fossil record to go along with their notes :)

  28. Re:Too many gaps by kmcrober · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "If evolution, as they say, takes so long, there WOULD be fossils that we COULD conclusively show are directly linked to other species - without missing links - and they would be found just as easily as dinosaur fossils are."

    Really? Because the biologists--you know, the guys who actually do the math to figure that sort of thing out--say otherwise. I don't mean to suggest that your casual inference is somehow not as persuasive as the life labors of scientists who waste their time with experiments, observations, professional collaborations, and measly testable predictions. Your unsupported hand-waving is certainly good enough for me. But just in case anyone reading your comment thinks that it in any way represents an educated opinion, you might want to read the FAQ.

    I've already said it once in these comments, but it bears repeating. The ignorance required to be a creationist is stunning in its own right. But it's the arrogance that really knocks my socks off. It's one thing to just not know how a complicated science works - very few people do. It's quite another to assume that the well-educated, hard-working specialists who unanimously disagree with you also don't know anything, simply because you don't like the facts they discover.

  29. Re:Can we stop with the stupid comments? by 2short · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Evolution on a cosmic level has never been observed and it's not much more than an educated guess"

    Horseshit. It's a well constructed theory supported by vast mountains of evidence. It is the foundation of the entire science of biology. Every biologist in modern times has spent their career testing it, and found it solid. If it's an "educated guess" then plate tectonics is a wild shot in the dark.

  30. Not direct ancestor by Envall · · Score: 5, Informative

    According to Swedish radio this is not a direct ancestor to us. However this find is important since it is close to the trunk from which the mamals is derived.

  31. Re:Can we stop with the stupid comments? by kmcrober · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Evolution on a cosmic level has never been observed and it's not much more than an educated guess."

    Two serious mistakes in one sentence. Evolution has been observed, and is much, much more than an 'educated guess.'

    (And, incidentally, "Evolution on a cosmic level"? What does that even mean?)

  32. Some Logic Errors.... by raalynthslair · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's some serious erroneous logic in this article's summarization of the find and of it's importance...

    First, they compare it to the "reptile-to-bird" fraud (and yes, it's been proven by NON-CREATIONIST scientists to have been known to be WRONG and NOT what it was said to have represented, yet was displayed and proclaimed as such anyhow - that's fraud, it's a lie... BUT that's not the point here...); This comparison claims to be on the same level of importance and uses that earlier finding as justification for the assumption of this one being relevant to what they are claiming it is. Basically "that one was a link, and since that's one, this has to be another." Well, not really. It COULD be something totally unique.

    Second, the assumption that this thing lived and died, therefore had offspring of another type of animal is just plain silly. We breed dogs with all sorts of other types of dogs, sometimes wolves, coyotes, and even Jackals and Hyenas (all in the "canis" family) and we always get offspring that are DOGS! If we suddenly found a skeleton of a St. Bernard no one would think to claim it's a rabbit's ancestor in a transitional period of evolution. It's just not logical. A fossil/remains can tell you ONE THING and only one thing... that the creature to which those remains belonged to LIVED AND DIED. It can't tell you how many offspring it had (it's suspect whether most can tell you if they had ANY - forget that half (give or take) of most all species is of a non-childbearing gender)), whether those off spring survived or not, and certainly not what those off spring looked like - other than to assume that in the "millions of years" of human record of the animals of our world that the off spring would be just like the parents; as we've seen billions of times in humans alone (much less the thousands of variants of animals and all their offspring!)

    Third, they simply claim that this previously undiscovered creature is something "in transition" from one being to another when this is the first one found. How do they know that it's not just a unique creature that died out (ie: gone extinct). We've seen entire animal groups wiped out by over-hunting or poaching (the Dodo bird comes to mind), if this happened many years ago and it was not recorded by someone for us to know today, how would we know?! We're always finding new information about animals that have been long since extinct... And we're finding new ones once in a while too...

    Fourth, they seem to ignore the fact that we have aquatic animals today that have feet-like appendages, fin-like appendages, and live in the water more of their life than not. Most are reptilian, but there are mammals too. That is a problem... Reptiles are cold-blooded and egg-laying. Mammals are warm-blooded and bear live young... There's no way to prove that this was an "adaption" to moving from water to land - else, why do animals like ducks still lay eggs (or the platypus, et al) and some mammals (whales, dolphins, seals, etc) live entirely in the water (but not breathe in the water like fish and some reptiles) bear live young like mammals if this is indeed an evolutionary change... Frogs are reptilian but they live more of their life on land than in water (so it's believed currently, this has been a back-and-forth debate for years)... and look at gators or crocs- reptilian, breathe oxygen without gills, and still are cold-blooded and not mammalian breeding...

    There's too much speculation along the lines of "this is what we expect to see therefore it's what we see, and what was/is" thinking in these types of articles.

    The sad and simple truth is that you have to take it on faith that "this must have happened" to truly make the evolution theory work. That's fine, and that's ok... but it's not scientifically sound. You can not test it, it can not be duplicated to ensure the theories hold out true, and the scientific principles of the methodology of study can not be applied to the evolution. When you take this into account and say "well we're here

    --
    -- "You must be the change you desire to see in the world." Mahatma Gandhi --
    1. Re:Some Logic Errors.... by mrpeebles · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The sad and simple truth is that you have to take it on faith that "this must have happened" to truly make the evolution theory work. That's fine, and that's ok... but it's not scientifically sound.

      I think that all modern science, and probably all science through history as well, has to make assumptions for the sort "this must have happened." Science has an element of circular thinking in it. Evolutionary theory is nothing special in that regard.

    2. Re:Some Logic Errors.... by SilentReproach · · Score: 2, Informative

      I would have to agree that if this find is as important as Archaeopteryx, it's not all that important.

      It used to be that evolutionists believed Archaeopteryx (fancy word for "ancient wing" or "ancient bird"), was a link between reptiles and birds. Many evolutionists no longer believe this. Closer examination of its fossilized remains revealed perfectly formed feathers on aerodynamically designed wings capable of flight. Its leg and wing bones were thin and hollow. Its supposed "reptilian features" are found in birds today. And it does not predate birds. Fossils of other birds have been found to have lived in the same period as Archaeopteryx.

      --
      Religion is the opium of the people. Evolution is the opium of scientists.
    3. Re:Some Logic Errors.... by plunge · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Well, not really. It COULD be something totally unique."

      Well, yes, except that morphologically it fits in at only one place and time into the tree of life. As you can read from the article, no one is saying that it is a direct ancestor of modern life, because we cannot know, as you note, it's particular future. But we CAN tell its past and from what orders of life it came, and its existence tells us all about what sorts of creatures were around and what they were like on this particular branch of the tree that led to modern land animals.

      "We breed dogs with all sorts of other types of dogs, sometimes wolves, coyotes, and even Jackals and Hyenas (all in the "canis" family) and we always get offspring that are DOGS!"

      I hate to break it to you, but if you think that evolution suggests something different, you are mistaken. Your exclamation is about as silly as saying "but if you breed two mammals together, we always get MAMMALS!"

      Evolution is cladistically conservative. New species branch out from old categories: they do not replace or exit them. Just as all the species that will descend from dogs can still be grouped as "dogs" (because they will all still share the same traits that distinguished dogs from all other forms of life).

      Of course, your statement is wrong anyway. There are plenty of canis that cannot interbreed already. It might even be the case with some domestic dogs: it's just that we've never really seriously tried.

      "Third, they simply claim that this previously undiscovered creature is something "in transition" from one being to another when this is the first one found. How do they know that it's not just a unique creature that died out (ie: gone extinct)."

      You're mixing up claims about this specific species with what a transitional fossil actually is. Transitionals are creatures that have the distinctive and otherwise unique features of both an earlier group (in this case lobed fishes) and a later group (in this case tetrapods). We know that this creature was related to the tetrapods because it has several features that are unique to tetrapods or otherwise related to tetrapods, while at the same time being identifiably Stegocephalian. As point of fact, you are also still a Stegocephalian. Just as you are: a tetrapod, an amniote, a synapsid, a therian, a eutherian (what you think of as a mammal), a primate, an ape, and a sapien sapien. If you mated with someone and produced offspring, I could scream "BUT THEIR BABY IS STILL A EUKARYOTE!" I would be right: but it wouldn't make a lick of difference in disproving evolution.

      The problem is that you misunderstand evolution.

      "There's no way to prove that this was an "adaption" to moving from water to land - else, why do animals like ducks still lay eggs"

      I don't know what you mean by why. They lay eggs because all descendants of the early amniotes have eggs with amniotic fluid. Including humans.

      "(or the platypus, et al)"

      Platypi are monotremes, a group of therians (one of three, the other two being the placentals and the marsupials). Therians as a rule lay eggs. But their "eggs" are not like bird eggs. They are almost as if someone gave birth without first breaking the placenta: the "egg" is thin and membranous like a placenta, and it hatches almost immediately.

      "and some mammals (whales, dolphins, seals, etc) live entirely in the water (but not breathe in the water like fish and some reptiles) bear live young like mammals if this is indeed an evolutionary change..."

      Cetaceans very obviously tetrapods returned to the water. As such, they bear all the distinctive features of their tetrapod, amniote, euthreian, and so on ancestry, but have modified these features for life in the water. The features they have are not some random grab bag of features. They are all mammal features. Even the fact that they've "lost" their back limbs is deceptive: in the embryonic stage they still grow back limbs (which are then reabsorbed!). Sometimes, they are actually born with limbs (an atavism: just like when humans are born with tails), which happen to be in just the right place and hooked up to their vestigial pelvic girdle in just the right way... to be a tetrapod.

  33. Obviously by robla · · Score: 5, Funny

    What IS surprising, is that there is no image - not even the obligatory 100-pixel-across thumbnail, which links to a lame-ass 200-pixel-across "Large Picture".

    That qualifies as the missing link then, doesn't it.

  34. Re:Too many gaps by kmcrober · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, beneficial mutations are often observed.

    The Talk Origins FAQ I've linked to is comprehensive, easily searched, and quite objective. Even better, it points the way to more in depth books, articles, and sources--you can, if you choose, go from a one-page FAQ summary all the way to the primary evidence. Otherwise, I would recommend a book such as Ernst Mayr's "What Evolution Is." Much more difficult than the FAQ, and a tiny bit dated, but also much more rewarding.

  35. Re:"the" missing link? by Sean+Hederman · · Score: 2, Informative

    1. There is a lot more about this just that it's "an animal that we haven't seen before". It's a tetrapod like we are. We've found aquatic tetrapod fossils, we've found land-based tetradpod fossils. This one is between the two. It has land-based features (i.e. lungs and strong limbs), and fish-based features (i.e. fins and scales). As such it falls between the two "groups" of tetrapods.

    2. They didn't "assume" the time period. They looked in riverine rocks which are dated to having been deposited between 417 mil and 354 mil years ago to find the animal. They knew the time period it should come from (from the dates of aquatic and land tetrapods fossils), and they knew the type of environment it would be found in (riverine). So, they went to an area dated to that time period, that was riverine in those days, and found the fossil.

    3. (Since you conflated two points in no 2), the point is that it doesn't resemble "some other animal", it resembles two other animals, a marine tetrapod and a land tetrapod. Ergo, transitional fossil.

  36. Re:Jumping to conclusions by Col+Bat+Guano · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We don't, that's why you won't find the term "missing link" used scientifically. It could have been one of many species that subsequently became extinct. However it's an example of a fish that developed features that we find in land based animals so it's at least an existance proof.

  37. Re:Evolution is not gradual by Sean+Hederman · · Score: 2, Informative

    I think you'll find that evolution is a lot more gradual than you give it credit for. The main reason that we expect to find "jumps" in the fossil record is precisely because it is gradual. To simplify, speciation is theorised to be "faster" for isolated species, since their smaller population allows for swifter distribution of advantageous genes. Once they expand beyond their range, if they have evolved enough advantages, they very quickly expand even further.

    So, if we look everywhere on earth, except for at that original range, we will find a "sudden" appearance of that species. Even if speciation was not "swifter" in isolated populations, we would expect to find this. However, if we did ever find the original range (a VERY unlikely proposition), we would find the gradual fossil record for that species.

  38. Re:Queue the "Creationists are idiots!" posts by Sean+Hederman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you have a problem with it, no-one is insisting you believe it. You're welcome to your personal beliefs. However, you are (and have in your previous posts) disputing science based on those beliefs. No matter what evidence is put before you showing evolution to be correct, you would twist it or deny it because your faith does not allow for it. At least, unlike many Creationists, you seem to be willing to admit this. However, like many other Creationists you seem to feel that science must conform to your personal beliefs.

    Keep in mind that if you're a biblical literalist, it is not just evolution you must deny, but also physics, astronomy, geology, archeology, and many others. They all point to an old Earth and contradict a literal reading of Genesis.

    As I said before, you're welcome to your personal beliefs, but evangelising bad science based on those beliefs is not welcome.

  39. Land Arthropods were Much Earlier. by giafly · · Score: 5, Informative

    Re: showing how creatures first walked out of the water and on to dry land more than 375m years ago

    Not so. Arthropods (millipedes and centipedes etc) first conquered the land around 500 million years ago and were walking around long before this newly-discovered beastie. Their fossilised footprints have been found. "The oldest body fossil of a land animal is a 430-million-year-old millipede."

    "Our own ancestors, fish-like amphibians, first lumbered ashore a mere 370 million years ago. There they found a world teeming with plants and giant creepy crawlies."

    --
    Reduce, reuse, cycle
  40. Re: Queue the "Creationists are idiots!" posts by viking2000 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Let's assume the creationists are right, and that the creator built the earth in 7 days a few milennia ago.

    Then the creator camuflaged this work to perfection:
    1. Dinosuar bones
    2. Carbon dating
    3. Erosion and tektonic activites
    4. DNA evolution

    The allmighty obviously have _on-purpose_ misled us to find perfect support for evolution.

    This must be for a reason.

    Should we, his humble followers, try to reveal this perfect camuflage by shouting Creation?

    I say _no_. The Creator have obviously done a perfect job hiding the evidence of creation, and planted false evidence for evolution to perfection.

    He must obviously want us to conclude the evolution is the truth.

    And even if we know better, who are we to try to find flaws in His effort to hide the nature of His creation.

    It will at any rate be fruitless, for who think they can do better than the Allmighty, and find the evidence He has hidden to the ability of the Omnipotent?

    As a creationist one therefore faithfully should document and support the beauty of the evolution, while quietly in your soul know the true nature of the universe.

    So to the creationists I tell you: Abandon your blasphemic and arrogant ways. Preach Evolution!

  41. but there is an image of it by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Funny

    right here.

  42. Images by armb · · Score: 3, Informative

    > What IS surprising, is that there is no image

    Lots of other places covered the story, some do have pictures.
    http://news.google.com/news?q=Tiktaalik+roseae

    e.g. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&arti cleID=000A040D-36A2-1434-B6A283414B7F0000

    --
    rant
  43. I wrote about this a while back... by meringuoid · · Score: 4, Interesting
    First off, evolution actually fits better with Christian theology than young-earth creation

    I had some thoughts along these lines a while back: that by insisting on Biblical inerrancy, the fundamentalists are guilty of idolatry, and that by ignoring evolution they're missing one of God's finest works.

    Ah, here it is:

    It's a tragedy, because assuming for the sake of argument that there is a God, then they're missing some of his best tricks. Evolution is a brilliant hack - a system that you can set up and just let run, and all the work is done for you. It must give God some of the same kind of kick we hackers get when we replace a thousand lines of brutal code with a single concise iterative function... And as for nucleosynthesis, the means by which the heavy elements that constitute much of the Earth were made, if God came up with that then he has a sense of style that I really like. Seeding the universe with metals from supernovae - amazing.
    --
    Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
  44. Eh by distilledprodigy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ya'll are just looking for reasons to blast the religious community... I think it's awesome that they found this evidence, but I don't think it gives me the right to go out trying to tear down people's beliefs.

  45. They just found it? by jhml · · Score: 3, Funny

    You mean this sucker is important evidence of evolution, has been missing for who knows how long, they found it, and now they tell us about it? Where was all the hoopla when it was missing?

    Before they found it. I don't recall any scientists saying "This theory of evoution might be convincing if we could find a fish with toes, but until then...."

    Nor do I recall anyone saying "Well we had this link, but Mortimer apparently slipped it into his pants and took it out of the Smithsonian, and since then it has been missing..."

    What else are they missing and not telling us about?

    Whole thing just deepens my suspicion. I want an accounting of all the links they claim to have, but for all we know have also gone missing.

  46. Better link, to Nature article by kronocide · · Score: 2, Informative
  47. I thought this was a missing link by calibrate · · Score: 2, Funny
    <a href="#"></a>
  48. Picture and more info by goonies · · Score: 2, Informative

    For anyone looking for more info plus a picture of Tiktaaaaaahtingy check:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

    I'm always impressed how fast wiki is with its updates, whoot!

    --
    .sigh
  49. Re:'One of many' missing links by jc42 · · Score: 2, Informative

    ... the scientist ... said it was 'one of many' missing links to the evolution of land animals from fish, but certainly not the only one.

    Yup. Much of the reason this one gets so much attention is that it is nearly complete. Other than not knowing how long its tail was (and what color its skin was ;-), a fairly accurate reconstruction is possible. This is more useful than a pile of fragments of different individuals who may have lived centuries apart.

    Plus, it's a species that wasn't known before. That's always useful information.

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  50. Go Go Google Images by neersign · · Score: 3, Informative
  51. Re:Queue the "Creationists are idiots!" posts by GR1NCH · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When the Bible says that 'death' began with the original sin, I believe it is more accurate to not take death literally. Throughout the Bible 'life' and 'death' refer not to life and death here on Earth, but what happens to us in the hereafter. Hence Christ frequently discusses how through him we can achieve eternal life. He's not talking about living a mortal life forever, but that we will live forever in heaven with our Creator. Death on the other hand would be eternal seperation from our Creator, or eternal pain below. I believe mortal death existed before original sin, it was this spiritual death that Adam brought to us, and it was Jesus Christ that created a means for us to be redeemed of this death and live forever. This interpretation obviously is in keeping with evolution and old earth theory, and furthermore I think it makes more sense based on the teachings of Christ.

  52. Re:Let's address your own ignorance, shall we? by runderwo · · Score: 2, Funny

    Quite funny that the only reference that your struggle unearthed, while admittedly a Christian, is actually an ID critic

  53. Re:Let's address your own ignorance, shall we? by NialScorva · · Score: 2, Funny
    Did you read what you linked to?

    [...]evolution is an excellent theory to explain the origins of biological diversity, but it has little or no religious significance - it can be placed equally well within an atheistic or theistic context.


    Doesn't seem to me like this guy supports Intelligent Design, he's just giving his spin on Gould's Non-Overlapping Magisteria of Science and Religion.
  54. Re:Let's address your own ignorance, shall we? by kmcrober · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You are, in fact, entirely ignorant of the issue. I am not surprised; Intelligent Design was created with the intention of deceiving people, and it is very successful. The vaunted list you're pimping suffers from two critical flaws. The first is that it is overwhelmingly made up of lay persons with no special training in biology, as another commenter made clear.

    Second, and more importantly, the list's statement is an expression of just the sort of ignorance that is characteristic of creationists. Any scientist could honestly sign the statement, because "it is well known that random mutation and natural selection are not the only mechanisms contributing to the complexity of life; other mechanisms such as genetic drift and symbiosis are important, too." Most scientists won't sign it, however, because they understand that it is a political tool used to attack objective science and support the suppression of scientific education. The DI list is a carefully constructed tool for deceiving laypeople, intended to create the false impression that there is a legitimate debate over the reality of evolution in scientific circles. There is not, and your belief that there is betrays colossol ignorance on your part.

    (Incidentally, the list is also dwarfed by "Project Steve," a list of professional scientists who support objective science and evolution, but only accepts signatories named "Steven" or "Stephanie" in honor of Steven J. Gould. When the DI's list is a little over half the size of JUST the scientists named Steve who understand and support objective science, it shows how poorly they are viewed by professionals.)

    In short, your criticism betrays just the sort of ignorance you don't want me pointing out in creationists generally. The problem is that it's not just a rhetorical claim; creationism really is dependent on ignorance. The list is a good example--it seems like a valid argument only as long as you don't know what you're talking about. Please do read up on the subject, but remember that you cannot get accurate information from creationists; the success of their theories depends on the suppression of information, not the dissemination of it.

  55. Re:Actually, evolution doesn't predict this..... by plunge · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Prediction involves things that haven't happened."

    And the discovery of ambulocetus had not yet happened. Then, after it was not only predicted, but genetic studies purported to tell us where to look for it, we found it. What is that, if not predictive power?

    It both predicts AND requires it. They are of a kind.

  56. Re:Problem with theory of evolution by plunge · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sigh. No.

    You don't understand the method. Observation is observation of some fact or state of affairs that we want to explain. In evolution, those facts are things like the fossil record, the diversity of life on earth, and the very particular character of that life. "Observation" is not a requirement that we see things with out eyeballs, or even the part where we draw conclusions. It's the set of circumstances that we are trying to explain. That's why it comes first. It's TESTING where we find out if the explanation was correct or not.

    And that's where you go wrong again. Testing in evolution is testing any given piece of evidence to see if it confirms or disconfirms the theory. If you don't think evolutionary biologists run tests or use evidence to confirm or disconfirm their claims, then you don't know anything about the field.

    IF evolution is true, then all other sorts of things MUST be true. Are they true, or not? We test, and find out. We gather evidence and compare it to those theoretical requirements. Does it hold up? Yes, it does: in fact it holds up in spectacular and exacting detail.

    If what you were saying were true, then forensic science wouldn't be science either. But, unfortunately for your post, it is science. I don't think you're liable to find any textbook on the scientific method that would actually support what you are saying.