Slashdot Mirror
An Editorial Melee About Female Gamers
SR71 writes "Tom's Hardware has a strong debate between two of its editors in a face-off editorial about female gamers." From the article: "I'm not being puritanical - heck, a while ago I wrote about wanting to see more sex in videogames. Neither is this about being against female gamers. I simply take issue with people falling and fawning over these female gamers, and talking high-mindedly about how professional female e-sports will soon be on a par with the male circuit." The article contans some crass language that may be NSFW.
Not to mention the first picture is fairly NSFW.
What seems to be getting missed is that female gamers aren't some kind of hive mind. They don't all do the same things, they don't all think the same thoughts. Saying that female gamers are all Suicide Girls or Killcreek posing in Playboy is just as inaccurate as saying that all male gamers are like Comic Book Guy and spend their entire day shooting off their mouths on forums like Tom's Hardware. It may be true for a handful of people, but that doesn't make it so for everyone.
This article may have some shocking revelations if you are a man whose only exposure to the opposite sex has been through the "Babes of E3" calendar, but other than that it strikes me as a lot of hot air. Hot, smelly, air that could use a bath and a few hours out of its parents' basement.
The Men/Women sports separation is about different physical characteristics of both gender. Now, why the hell would we have the same distinction, which does not make sense, in 'e-sports' ?
The lead gameplay developer for the recently-released Galactic Civilizations 2, Cari Begle, is female - she just got interviewed by the Detroit Free Press. Cari's the person everyone goes to when there's a bug needs fixing. Maybe playing games isn't yet a place where you can get fair competition, but developing certainly is.
"Tom's Hardware has a strong debate between two of its editors in a face-off editorial about female gamers."
Do people care so much about gaming that this issue is even worthwhile? I'm going to rice up my car. Anyone care to argue about it?
All this talk about how to cater to one group or the other is a waste of breath IMO. Targeting any one of those groups will probably net you around 30% of that group, but it will disinterest or piss off the other 70% of that group, along with all the other groups. Where as if you just quit worrying about it, and make a good game that's enjoyable, and fun to play, you'll end up getting a larger portion of all the groups playing your game.
My point is that most gamers, regardless of sex, race, creed, or any other factor, like playing good games. A company attempting to target a game at any specific group is just covering the fact that they're not really sure how to make a good game, so they're going to try to hoodwink some group into buying their game because "It's made for them, by them"
If forums teach us anything, it is that logic and critical thinking should be required courses in the public schools.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
spend their entire day shooting off their mouths on forums like Tom's Hardware
Or Slashdot.
Contans? Don't you mean contains? Had to say it!
More misogyny from the geeks.
(yes, I am a male geek, mod me troll if you want to)
I think there's more to it than that. Male gamers, particularily, are generally not paired with gamer grrlz. Guys (arrogantly) dream of living with a woman who games and can understand the devotion they throw on games. It's one thing to understand that "Oh yeah, Bob likes to game." It's quite another to be able to truthfully say "Bob spent about six hours last night creating a wicked cool mod for Oblivion. You play a [details...]. I think he got some stuff right but he was to work on the [intricate details...]. I'm helping him model the [you guessed it, more details..]." This kind of statement is hotter to me than a stack of pr0n. I realize there's something fundamentally wrong with me because of this. But yes, I dream of a girl who would understand that I'd rather sit at home and play [Game] for three days straight than go up to my parents or go down with her to her parents' house.
Granted, I tend to agree with him, but usually I only have to say things once (or maybe twice to my kids) ... not six times.
Instead we get lame, slightly misogynistic speculation.
God Bless America. Why? Did it sneeze?
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, like when you get your first grammar nazi :P
By reading this, you have given me brief control of your mind.
....and, of course, I forgot to add "for Easter." after my last sentence. GO ME!
Just out of curiosity, what is "male e-sports" (dear God, what a horrid neologism) supposed to be "on par with?" News flash to the editor posting from his parents' basement: no activity that can be accomplished while eating a bag of Cheetos qualifies as a "sport."
Taste isn't universal. For example I like FPSes, I'm not a massive fan (though I used to be) but I still like them, still play them. My coworker does not, he does not enjoy them. We are both male, mid 20s, tech workers. When it comes to demographics, we are about as close as they come. However we have different taste in games. I also like single player games, whereas he only plays MMORPGs.
No matter what the game, you'll never hook every gamer, even every game of a given demographic.
Thanks! Now I have a reason to RTFA! Huh huh huh... I read it for the articles...
We can settle this at the next E3. If they have "Babes of E3," then they should have "Brawn of E3." Guys bench-pressing server racks, perhaps curling a 20inch CRT. Then... LARPing.
...is this such a big deal? Games are out of the basement now. They don't require hours of toiling around to learn how to play. Hell, my 6 year old cousin plays more games than I ever did at his age. They are a full grown entertainment category. You're obviously going to get more girl gamers, and who cares. You'll get more of every type of gamer, because the technology has become definitely something more immersive than any other type of entertainment. Some girls will play, some won't. Some guys will play, some won't. There's not really a news story here. Attaching a stigma to the fact that there are female gamers is the same thing as saying girls aren't good at math or science or whatever. Stop putting such an emphasis on gender. And I'll still kick that bitch's ass at Quake anyday =P
Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
Perhaps, in the gaming industry when it comes to women gamers, looks *are* valued more than gaming ability. Maybe if the gaming industry really did value gaming ability first and foremost when it comes to both men and women gamers, then overall women's gaming ability would improve. Obviously, as evident by the amount of money and attention spent on hot gamer girls, the industry panders to looks at the expense of ability when it comes to women gamers. If the industry wants better women gamers then that's where it should put the money and attention.
Until that happens, why should hot gamer girls with moderate skill improve their gaming ability if it's not required of them in order to achieve whatever it is they want to achieve (publicity, advertising/modeling contracts, etc...)? For some women, capitalizing on their looks and sexuality is what works for them so more power to them. It's their choice and right to do so.
The real question is, why does the gaming industry have a double standard where skill is valued in men gamers and looks valued in women gamers? Most likely it's because men make the games and they like looking at pretty girls so that's sets the tone for the industry as a whole.
All that said, I am a woman gamer and enjoy playing games. For me, the entertainment is in playing, not competing, and to be honest with you, I get bored after an hour or 2. My fingers get cramped and my eyes get tired and no, I'm not willing or interested in spending 4+ hours a day to figure out the exact key mash that will give me the secret power boost at the beginning of a race as opposed to my boyfriend who is driven to play and compete online which is fine, I just prefer to do other things, unless it's Tetris, I can play Tetris for 5+ hours at a stretch.
The incentive system to compete online and achieving a high ranking to earn rewards and points drives my boyfriend to keep going but are moot when it comes to me. Maybe there needs to be a different incentive system for women gamers to entice them to achieve a higher level of ability, I don't know.
Or maybe it's ok that there aren't professional women gamers.
- tokengeekgrrl
Next time you're in the aisles of your favorite bookstore, take a peek at some of the fiction aimed towards women. You know the type I'm talking about.
Now take a look at a book aimed more at a male audience.
Which one of these has the lurid sex scenes, do ya figure?
I loaned LoTR to my wife. After reading part of it, she stopped. Why? No sex. If she can't read a classic with a little sex in it, she'd just as soon read something cheesy with a lot of sex in it.
Or compare the typical cheesy male-targeted TV series' content to something that draws a lot more women.
If you want more women, you need more romance. And by "romance," I mean "sex."
This whole "no sex in entertainment" thing is really a male chauvinist guy thing.
The problem is not that there are pretty girl gamers, if they are genuine. The problem is the ugly girl gamers - there aren't any.
I am trolling
but more about ones who use their gaming to pronounce their sexiness.
I for one, don't see why this is such a big deal.
It's been happening since I started gaming in 1978, so if you still can't deal with it, admit you're a virgin and learn how to smile, listen, and engage in polite conversation.
Your problem will go away.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Tom rides Cari-Begle's Rocket
and voice:
Humiliation!
Every chick would love that, right?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I guess I should have -- the clues were all there. The title said `melee', there were two names listed as the author, each page had a name or initials at the top (and I never noticed that they changed), the first page had one guy addressing the other guy, etc.
Of course, it didn't help that the two seemed to agree about everything.
Oh well, I guess that's what I get for posting before I'm fully caffienated.
In related news, this is a bit misleading --
it may be accurate, but it's misleading because when people think of `gamers', they think of people who take their games seriously (like the professionals that this article is about), but the statistic includes (and is likely dominated by) people who play games like minesweeper and solitaire and whatever they find on the web from time to time.The opinion piece wasn't really about female gamers. It was about professional gamers and the differences between the genders in who gets sponsorship. Aaron McKenna says that guys get sponsorships based on skills and women based on their looks, and that hurts the gaming itself. I wouldn't be shocked if that were true right now, but that's because we're discussing publicity and marketability. When companies are choosing who will be their public face, they tend to go with the best looking specimens with adequate skills they can find. That this hasn't yet taken over the male gamers' representations is the surprise for me. I'm sure that will be coming.
As others have already stated, gamers are gamers. I tend to hate articles about female gamers, or what it would take to draw more women to gaming, or why women don't like certain types of games, or how they play differently than men. If it's a good game and a woman has access to it and the time to play it and an introduction to it, she's likely to play it. Everything else is just gravy.
... it was about clans, professionals, and media whores. (Media whores come in both genders and don't have to be sexual. Some people will do anything for attention.)
:)
:)
What percentage of female gamers belong to any sort of 'clan' and have ANY connection to what they were talking about?
For that matter, what percentage of MALE gamers belong to a clan or play professionally?
Sure, maybe professional female gamers are a bit of a joke - but there's a case to be made that ALL professional gamers are a bit of a joke. It's not exactly a recognised sport yet.
Mediawhoring to make money has nothing to do with gaming. Most people who play games don't get articles written about them or their pictures published.
I resent the discussion acting like the loud-and-out-there dolls are the only female gamers in the world up until the last page, when they vaguely mentioned that "Oh yeah, and some people just play the games and don't make such a huge deal about it."
I've gotcher 'Women In Gaming' RIGHT HERE!
Although I think the articles make some generalizations which may be unfair, the point is essentially true. It is scummy to call yourself a professional at something, but then self yourself on sex, unless selling sex is your job of course. I personally just do not respect women who use their bodies to get ahead.
Also, I think that the article was essentially complaining (once you remove a few inflammatory generalizations) is that gamers selling sex are taking away sponsorship opportunities from people who are actually *good* at video games. Now, personally, I don't take professional video game playing that seriously... but if the same thing happened to me at work, I'd be pretty pissed.
Everyone, including female gamers, has to put up with the stupid minority. From what I saw and heard during the months I managed to do this on Xbox Live, I learned that girls are just as good at this as guys.
Girls are people, people are good at dealing with other people and the stupid shit they do. I think they (journalists) get so tied up in thinking about them being "girls" that they forget that class girl extends person.
seriously some guys obviously feel threatened too easily, go crawl back into your fucking caves.
Promote Charity on Myspace, Show Your Colours!
I'll be amazed when the "male circuit" becomes something that more than some nerds on the internet and the country of Korea actually cares about.
The main point at issue was whether or not the status quo in the professional circuit (and in the media) is inadequate to uncover the truly talented female gamers.
The pro-gaming insider thinks so. The mag-editor OTH thinks its a matter of the right groups of females teaming up in the first place.
I tend to agree with the latter. The status quo will only change when a female team (or GASP, a coed team) emerges that competes well enough such that it would be illogical to cover the female members on their own merits.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
This is a rather ridiculous argument. They split up the issue in a rather odd way. On one hand you have one editor taking the anti-female position. The strange thing is that this editor has a problem with the women being sex symbols (despite millions of years of built in instinct that assures that this is a natural aspect of gender relations in our species).
Then you have the other editor pretending to support women being taken seriously in gaming, and that editor sees no problem with them showing their assets.
Where are the more realistic positions that desire women to be sex objects first and being able to compete is just a bonus. And the counter example of the guy that wants women to be taken seriously and not treated as sex objects.
As far as I know there there are no hetro male dominated parties that actually do not want women around at gatherings. Whether they want them there for talent, fairness, sexuality, or all of the above Yes it is possible to not deny your male instincts that see women as sex objects and still respect their non-cosmetic features and intellect at the same time.
The article doesn't say that all of them are like that, and it focuses on professional gaming, and not gaming in general.
The majority of the negative responses towards the article and the blog that it links to have been deliberate or ignorant misinterpretations, and therefore it looks like the opposition can't be taken very seriously.
Look at women's tennis - Anna Kournikova hardly ever (if ever?) won the Grand Slam or Wimbledon, etc. but who cares? At that time, she was the most recognized face of women's tennis. In fact some of the ugly women complained about her why she was getting all of the press coverage when she hadn't won. And you know what? I would specifically watch women's tennis matches just to see her play, even if she did lose.
Hey, if a nice set of T's and a tight A allows a women to get corporate sponsorship, then good for her! Use your assets to maximize your cashflow.
First, e-sports are barely "sports" yet at all, whatever they may become they aren't really a "sport" yet, not even in the way that bowling and darts are a sport. Second, Shirley Muldowney was probably the best drag racer ever. So she got sponsorships, attention and fame (within the context of that sport) Danica Patrick is a "pretty good" Indy car driver, but also a hottie, so she gets more attention fame etc, within the context of that sports personality. Also see Anna K, and Maria Sharpova or similar examples. Before you think I'm being sexist and oversimplistic this works for men in sports as well, whether it's that they come across as having the personality type that the male fans of the sport would want to go drinking with, (John Daly for ex.) or if it's that the female fans of the sport think they're attractive. (NASCAR drivers & NFL quarterbacks mostly, but I'm sure there are other examples in sports I don't pay any attention to)
The article was four pages of chest thumping and "Women have boobs so they can't game like I do", followed by two pages of fierce backpedalling and a few moments of actual thought. The reactions you so glibly dismiss are to those first four pages. Pretending that they don't exist doesn't help anybody.
"Sex" is not entirely the same with "romance". For us men, sex is primarily a domination game, often not involving a positive attitude towards our object of pleasure, just raw instinct. Romance, on the other hand, has a lot more depth: in most romantic scenes that end with sex, the male also feels "love" for the female, were "love" is defined as something more than sexual attraction. I guess it all boils down to women wanting to feel secure within the environment that they will perform the act of procreation into, whereas for men it is more like a hunting game.
I guess we are reading different articles, because mine is entirely different. Then again, I don't have an automated "oh no, this is rude and politically incorrect!" response in my nervous system.
How many guys won't pretty much melt, at the site of a crying woman? We maybe fast, and good at mathmatics, but when it comes to being the one in the background running everything, women can beat us hands down. It is almost like we are just some pawns in some game at times. :-)
Who the hell gives a crap about someone who is that preoccupied by the 1% of the 1% who view "Professional Gaming" as the most important part of the video game culture?
Why isnt anyone more concerned with the constant video game images of either the helpless damsel in distress, or the sex object in her "armor plated battle thong" and her "enchanted DD breasts of gravity defiance"
Whatever these "Professional Gamers" like to fawn over at conventions is really the saddest moot point possible. How about a culture of game design that doesnt make normal non paid women look at our games and laugh at our sad little toys before ever giving them a chance.
Would we really give a game a chance if all the women wore normal clothing with regular proportions while every single polygon male runs around with bustling muscles wearing nothing but a terribly well rendered well endowed bannana hammock everywhere, with gratuitous slow pans from the his legs to his mostly bare ass?
Okay, some of you might give that game a chance. but still, you get my point. We are never going to get a large proportion of real women to really play video games, when only a small contigent of the market doesnt objectifiy them at every turn.
Web Developers: Celebrate to our roots! Animated Gifs and Tiled Backgrounds, dont let our history die!
And if you read the article, you'd know that this point is encapsulated in the pro-gamers representation of the current status quo, as I mentioned earlier.
It shouldn't matter. If a chick in a coed team creams a top seat in a tournament, you don't think she'd get coverage even if she wasn't a looker?
If the tourneys were co-ed, then image wouldn't need to be a pre-requisite for sponorship, just skills.
I mean, isn't this the internet? Where no one knows your a dog until they meet you in person?
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Clue-bat: Sponsorships are about celebrity, which includes skill, appearance, legend, and personality.
Look a NASCAR. Look at golf. Sponsorships do not track directly with success in competition. Look at talent shows like American Idol.
Sure, it may offend our geek principles that anything but skill can determine outcomes. But, now that money is involved, are we really surprised to see gaming descend to the same level as every other competition?
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
ALL'S FAIR writes:
How can we call down women who use what they've got to get ahead? In every endeavor (work, politics, sports, etc.) women who want to compete have to slog through a never-ending bog of discrimination. If a woman uses her looks to get ahead, that's her right. The success she gains by her looks will never balance out the discrimination she has to deal with.
PART OF THE PROBLEM writes:
We are geeks. Geeks believe in the value of skill and intellect over physical appearance. In gaming, more than anywhere, we should try to eliminate looks as a factor in success. Women (or men) who have looks and use them to get ahead perpetuate a system that trods upon people whose gifts don't include looks. If we let looks matter here, the A-crowd will take over gaming just like it takes over everything else.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
"In the end, arthritis will be what kills off the current crop of professional gamers. As for the female gamers, as it stands, it'll be the first sign of wrinkles."
Man, I can't wait till Old Grandma Hardcore finds out about this one...
He lost me after going off on Female Gamers contrasting his wife, whom I am to assume is a good christian woman who would never show her midriff for a new DEALIENWARE Laptop. Let me guess she said No F'n way am I posing for a website dressed like that and you learned a "very special" lesson
Gaming is open to all from ButUgly to Smokin Hot. Guy, Girl, Tranny, whatever. But if you are going to have a full page pic of said gamer should I be upset that she is Hot or Scantily Clad? About as upset that my Cleric can't wear a raincoat to cover her very shapely ass for a 3 or 4 hour quest.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games