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FBI Releases Secret Subpoena Information
gollum123 writes to mention a CNN article, reporting on an FBI information release. The number of secret subpoenas the Bureau filed last year reached 3,501. These documents allowed access to credit card records, bank statements, telephone records, and internet access logs for thousands of legal citizens without asking for a court's permission. From the article: "The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the same panel that signs off on applications for business records warrants, also approved 2,072 special warrants last year for secret wiretaps and searches of suspected terrorists and spies. The record number is more than twice as many as were issued in 2000, the last full year before the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001."
And yet I'd say 75% don't know enough to care about it and 60% wouldn't care if they did. I made up those numbers but you get the idea.
secret Subpoena are they? Still, I am amazed that this information was ever released, I don't know how the US legal system works but in England the Government an stop the release of any information (even under the Freedom of information act) which might affect "national security", it seems strange to me that the US adiminstration has actually let this stuff get out. I also wonder how many of the people were bona fide terrorists...
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
At least such subpoenas are theoretically legitimate. It's kind of sad that while normally one would be concerned over whether or not this level of secret activity is justified, these days this seems pretty same since at least they're actually going through a legal process at all.
English is easier said than done.
George W. Bush's presidency appears headed for colossal historical disgrace. Barring a cataclysmic event on the order of the terrorist attacks of September 11th, after which the public might rally around the White House once again, there seems to be little the administration can do to avoid being ranked on the lowest tier of U.S. presidents. And that may be the best-case scenario. Many historians are now wondering whether Bush, in fact, will be remembered as the very worst president in all of American history.
From time to time, after hours, I kick back with my colleagues at Princeton to argue idly about which president really was the worst of them all. For years, these perennial debates have largely focused on the same handful of chief executives whom national polls of historians, from across the ideological and political spectrum, routinely cite as the bottom of the presidential barrel. Was the lousiest James Buchanan, who, confronted with Southern secession in 1860, dithered to a degree that, as his most recent biographer has said, probably amounted to disloyalty -- and who handed to his successor, Abraham Lincoln, a nation already torn asunder? Was it Lincoln's successor, Andrew Johnson, who actively sided with former Confederates and undermined Reconstruction? What about the amiably incompetent Warren G. Harding, whose administration was fabulously corrupt? Or, though he has his defenders, Herbert Hoover, who tried some reforms but remained imprisoned in his own outmoded individualist ethic and collapsed under the weight of the stock-market crash of 1929 and the Depression's onset? The younger historians always put in a word for Richard M. Nixon, the only American president forced to resign from office.
Now, though, George W. Bush is in serious contention for the title of worst ever. In early 2004, an informal survey of 415 historians conducted by the nonpartisan History News Network found that eighty-one percent considered the Bush administration a "failure." Among those who called Bush a success, many gave the president high marks only for his ability to mobilize public support and get Congress to go along with what one historian called the administration's "pursuit of disastrous policies." In fact, roughly one in ten of those who called Bush a success was being facetious, rating him only as the best president since Bill Clinton -- a category in which Bush is the only contestant.
The lopsided decision of historians should give everyone pause. Contrary to popular stereotypes, historians are generally a cautious bunch. We assess the past from widely divergent points of view and are deeply concerned about being viewed as fair and accurate by our colleagues. When we make historical judgments, we are acting not as voters or even pundits, but as scholars who must evaluate all the evidence, good, bad or indifferent. Separate surveys, conducted by those perceived as conservatives as well as liberals, show remarkable unanimity about who the best and worst presidents have been.
Historians do tend, as a group, to be far more liberal than the citizenry as a whole -- a fact the president's admirers have seized on to dismiss the poll results as transparently biased. One pro-Bush historian said the survey revealed more about "the current crop of history professors" than about Bush or about Bush's eventual standing. But if historians were simply motivated by a strong collective liberal bias, they might be expected to call Bush the worst president since his father, or Ronald Reagan, or Nixon. Instead, more than half of those polled -- and nearly three-fourths of those who gave Bush a negative rating -- reached back before Nixon to find a president they considered as miserable as Bush. The presidents most commonly linked with Bush included Hoover, Andrew Johnson and Buchanan. Twelve percent of the historians polled -- nearly as many as those who rated Bush a success -- flatly called Bush the worst president in American history. And these figures were gathered before the debacles over Hurricane Katrina, B
The number of secret subpoenas the Bureau filed last year reached 3,501.
Wow! I bet they have a lot of terrorists to show for all that work. Right...?
::crickets chirping::
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
What are the odds that there are 3000 invividual situations that legitmately warrant issuing a secret subpeona. That is the REAL question. There should be no such thing. Every order should go through the courts, through a judge. Let it be sealed, let it be 'secret' that way but there needs to be a check to the power of law enforcement.
You're fogetting a few things ...
If each of the 3000 people who was secretly spied on had contact with only 20 people, that's a pool of 60,000 additional people whose privacy was "incidently" violated.
So now they've got, not 3,000, but 63,000 "names of interest."
Take it one level further for each of the additional 60,000 ... 60,000 x 20 = 1,200,000.
It grows pretty fast. The danger is these secret searches escalating into their version of the Kevin Bacon game.
I think there were less victims of terrorism in the last 50 years in the USA than the number of people wiretapped. What are the odds that I (or any one of us) has to worry about being killed this year? I don't think the odds are high enough to worry about.
On the tangent a bit, according to some results 100k+ people have died in the last few years thanks to the war in Iraq. Oh, but they weren't roman^Wamerican citizens, so we don't talk about them and it makes it all right, right?
My point is, why the craze about terrorism and not about sufferings caused by actions supposedly taken against terrorism? The answer is simple, currently most of the media runs "managed" news. They don't "censor", just set a very low weight to otherwise important news, that is their biggest power not leaning/bending opinions with words.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
England has no constitution and no bill of rights (except, arguably, the 800-year-old Magna Carta). The United States does, despite efforts by the current administration to marginalize them.
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
They had a process for putting Jews in camps as well. :-)
Just thought I'd let you know that.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Do they secretly subpoena slashdot posts? Maybe it's the Feds that keep modding me down...
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
I do normally take the view that if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear, and mostly I think that this is true... or more accurately it would be true if the legal system was 1) simple, 2) easy to access and apply, 3) there were few of them. If you had this then everyone would know what was legal and what was illegal, then if they broke the law then it would be a good thing to catch them and it wouldn't matter about this kind of thing... The problem in the US (and UK too, as well as most other countries I can think of) the law is very complicated, there are many of them which can be applied differently depending on how you are treated or what time it is (that is to say when it goes to the supreme court/ House of Lords) and there are so many of them it would be impossible to know all the laws... So if you were tapped then they could arrest you based on practically anything you said or did, and you might get convicted, even though you don't think you've done anything wrong... this is just too much power for any one group in society to have
As one quick example of how laws might apply to you even if you think that they wouldn't in R v Shivpori (House of Lords) the Ratio stated that you can be guilt of attempting something (illegal) even if what you were attempting was impossible
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
it, not Rolling Stone. Rolling Stone just published it.
Link : One of America's leading historians assesses George W. Bush
"What are the odds that I (or any one of us) has to worry about being killed this year? I don't think the odds are high enough to worry about."
outside of 2001, fewer people have died in America from international terrorism than have drowned in toilets. Hell, if you consider how many people die from eating peanuts each year then it really is them that you should be afraid of...
On a slightly different note, one of the main purpose of terrorism is to generate "advertising" in a lot of circumastances, and I do think that the 9/11 attacks were for this end, being afraid of terrorism, changing what you do in you life is letting the terrorist win; it gives them what they want.
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
First, at least we are being told they happen and to what extent. At least our country still has that much going for it.
/. posters have. In a perfect world we would not have to worry about who comes here, who they have business with, and what they do. Unfortunately it has come to be that our freedom is easily exploited by those who wish us to do harm. The problem I have is that the very idea of trying to find these people seems to be an affront to the very people the government wants to protect.
What is truly insane are all the ignorance many
You cannot have it both ways. We still have our freedom. We have a legal framework to keep tabs on what the government is doing. I am actually surprised that the number is so low. I look at it this way, the intelligence community is now having to make up for being slack for a very long time. It used to be viewed the our enemy was going to come from outside our borders. Instead we know through some public arrests that they are doing their best to come from within. They just don't sneak someone in and act in weeks, they set up operatives who attempt to blend in and build up a base from which to operate. They don't plan on the short term and neither can we.
People are worried that some government agency is going after bank records and phone records convienently ignore the fact that businesses do it all the time and legally. The government actually has to get permission from the courts. That is our protection. The idea of secret warrants has been around a long time. It is one way that the mobs were brought down. This is just another version of the same idea.
Yeah mistakes are going to be made, some people who have no guilt are going to have their records examined. Thats a small price to pay to at least try and stop another 9-11 from occuring. Yeah I know, its the right wings mantra, hide behind the fear of another 9-11. Too bad its a valid point. It sucks but there are far more loonies out there looking to deprive us of our freedom and lives than there are government workers trying to take your rights.
You freely give up your privacy to any number of corporations, publish your thoughts out in the open on the net, and yet when the government follows the laws established to insure that it operates in the intrest of you and others you cry about it?
Be more worried about the stuff they do we don't know. This at least is something going on that we can track.
As far as a great number not caring or not knowing enough. True on both accounts, and for the many here that fit the first category nothing will stop them from posting.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Last year, when trying to kill time in DC (I'm from Ohio), I decided to head out to a bar. I noticed a bachaelorette party going into a particular bar and decided that's wehre I'd spend my evening (seemed like an easy decision). I handed over my credit card and opened a tab.
I kept trying to get the attention of some of those girls, but none of them so much as returned my glances. So I struck up a conversation with the friendly guy next to me.
Turns out the girls were ignoring me because it was a gay bar!
Now, if someone looks through my credit card history, they're going to think I'm into men.
So all I can say is, these secret warrants suck! And if you're FBI and monitoring my internet use and credit card history--I'm not gay! Really! I just hope your software is good enough to corelate this post with that Visa log.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
These figures don't count George Bush's "we don't need no steenkin' paperwork" illegal wiretaps.
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
Do you know if you've had a phone conversation with any of those 3501 people? If you have, you may be a "person of interest", and subject to even more scrutiny. Have you ever bent the rules on your income tax returns? Rolled through a stop sign? Once you become a "person of interest", pretty much everything you do may become evidence of you being a terrorist.
The question I have, though, is: How many terrorists have been apprehended based on these 3501 subpeonas? Any? Any at all? If not, then that is the clearest indication that they probably should not have been granted by FISA in the first place -- because they were probably inappropriate in any event. That is the reason that every US citizen should be demanding their elected representatives cause the NSA to cease and desist this sort of activity.
RHCE; are you certified? Karma: ambiguous.
NOT.
So much for that whole limited government thing.
Instead of Clinton using the FBI to investigate his political enemies, we now have the FBI investigating 3000 people without court approval or even accountability (until they're pressured).
Exactly how does this qualify as 'limited Government' again?
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Judging by the war in Iraq, bungled response to Katrina, the military wholesale spying on US citizens, the Justice Dept. all but admitting AT&T is helping them monitor communications in America, bankrupting the budget and the endless lies how are we supposed to trust that the government is doing the right thing? Just because Gonzales says this conduct is constitutional doesn't make it so.
I think it's pretty safe to assume this expansion of police powers does not make us any safer. It's a waste of resources, it's intrusive, and further undermines the pitiful remnants of our civil rights. Another failed policy from a failed administration. If it wasn't so dangerous and being wielded by corrupt, incompetent people it would be laughable.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
> What are the odds that there are 3000 invividual situations that legitmately warrant issuing a secret subpeona
A couple of buddies of mine just went through a secret subpeona last weekend and believe me it was no picnic for them.
Basically, they were flying back from a NASCAR race in their little puddle jumper, had to divert away from their flight plan due to a weather situation. The guy flying did everything in the correct manner, notified air traffic control, stayed away from the weather, etc.
Unfortunately, what my pilot buddy didn't know was that he was overflying George Bush who was physically at the military base whose airspace my buddy was traversing (legitimately mind you, they've done it three previous times without incident).
To make a long story short, an F16 was involved (not good), a large irritated rotweiler (not good) was involved, spread-eagled face-down positions were involved (not good), and several loaded, safeties off, pointed at my buddies, shotguns were involved (not good).
During the three hour interrogation, the secret service asked my pilot buddy "So Mr. So and So, just exactly what is up with you exploring the George Bush bobble-head doll website on so and so date". My buddy replied, "Oh, that had to have been my ultra-liberal wife looking at those websites". Which is 100 percent the case given I know what a fan of GWB my friend is and how his wife doesn't particularly care for GWB.
So the duration between the time my buddies were first spotted "off-course" and the interrogation was about 2.5 hours to three hours.
During that three hours they figured out who owned the plane, where they were supposed to land, had police and SS waiting for them there (plus at an alternate airport), and got my buddy's surfing logs out to a field agent.
The secret service guy did tell my buddy that this sort of situation happens all the time in the Washington DC area.
So 3,000 occurances a year nationwide doesn't surprise me a bit given a couple of my bone-headed NASCAR enjoying buddies got caught up in it last weekend.
Was the action warranted? That's debatable, and always will be. My buddies certainly didn't care for it, especially since one of them had been needing to urinate for the 5 hours or so hours prior to landing and the secret service really just didn't care that much about his urinary issues.
One thing it did do was that it got my buddies out the door a lot quicker than if they had been forced to be held overnight in a jail cell (not good) while a judge looked it all over and gave her approval.
What if some aids infected inmate had decided to make one of my buddies his new girlfriend for the night? That would have been a lot worse than having your rights trampled per having a judge issue a subpeona to get your GWB bobblehead dool surfing habits revealed. Or is there someone out there who would rather have had the aids?
Caution: Contents under pressure
Sad?
Consider that, if you strolled around Rome in the time of Marcus Aurelius, (when Russel Crowe was doin' his thang) and posed the question: "Was Rome better under the Republic, or the Empire?", you'd get a lot of confused expressions. Why?
There was no overt break between the eras. They still had a Senate, Tribunes, and all. The circuses, in fact, were better.
Bureaucracy corrupts, and absolute bureacracy expands to meet the needs of an absolutely corrupt bureaucracy[1]
This one is worth panicking about in a calm, persistent manner, lest we go the route of Rome. The government may need some extra tools in the information age, but it, too, needs to justify those requirements and be subject to its own level of scrutiny.
[1]Paraphrase of CivIV. Anyone with a better ref?
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
So, you're Mr. Perfect then? People do things wrong in their own and other's eyes all the time! Then there's being framed, which is a whole 'nother ball of wax, which includes being a convenient object to cast blame on.
"I do normally take the view that if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear"
That's a viewpoint I hear all the time, and I must confess that I'm completely mystified by it. Do people who believe this think the government will never abuse it's power? They're abusing their power right now and have many times before -- that's true of almost every government in human hisotry. You'd have nothing to fear when doing nothing wrong only if the government was completely honest. The more power they have the more they'll abuse it, as they keep proving every day. I should think that would be obvious.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
Newsflash: They aren't.Did you miss the first attack on the World Trade Center?
That certainly wasn't "substance-free posturing".So, we managed to catch terrorists in this country before, without all these secret requests
There are instances where secrecy is necessary. But those instance need to be linked to results.
If we aren't capturing terrorists with these secret requests, then we need to get back to protecting the civil rights of our people. And that means checking the validity of those requests more closely.
"From time to time, after hours, I kick back with my colleagues at Princeton to argue idly about which president really was the worst of them all."
Wow...sounds like a party.
Name a President, and his worst policy, take a shot. Do this cronologically... First person to make it to Taft, and still standing, wins...
Recomended Prizes: A liver
3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
They causes will be blatant corruption and incompetence of the federal government, elections processes that clearly favor those with money, the federal power grab of all decision making, the lack of decision making on important issues, the transition to a surveillance culture, the ability of big business and other special interests to buy legislation, the rube goldberg tax system, the unaccountability of those in power and the abuse of the court system.
As an IT guy there comes a point where a system is too antiquated and been kludged too much to continue throwing money at it. You have to start from scratch and use lessons learned to build a new system. Or move to another job.
what exactly was it that Nixon did, and of that what has Bush not done?
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
is the fact that we are actually seeing this info. I am not a big fan of this administration or the tactics it is using but I do have faith in the foundations of our federal government and the infallibility of karma.
Expecting the neo-con mod down in 3..2..1....
What if you're trying to correct the corrupt practices of a prior group of politicians who have no desire to step down? Sure, you might be honest, upstanding, etc. but you're a person who is doing nothing wrong. Are you still so sure there's not a concern about your eligibility for the free and wholesale monitoring of your communications? Keep in mind that East Germany had an estimated 30% of the country that had ties to the Stasi secret police - informants and the like. It didn't happen overnight, but possibly with incremental (or silent) intrusions into the citizens lives - for the safety of the country.
You have to remember, the US Government is completely bogged down with cronyism and the GWB personality cult. Much like the totalitarian states of the 30s and 40s, they have no real idea what's going on -- they're too busy admiring their "grand works", and patting each other on the back.
After one or two degrees of separation, you will have a lot of people, but it is a mistake to assume no overlap. Of course, if that means you were off by a factor of 10 for your two degrees of separation argument, 120,000 is still a lot of innocent people to be spying on.
Centralization breaks the internet.
Gee, if the government is afraid of people who look at George Bush Bobble-head dolls, I can imagine the treatment they'll give for people selling them. I guess its true that people who've abused cocaine for a long time have paranoid delusions over the weirdest things ...
About what Chenney is saying... this reminds me of the Simpsons.
Homer: Well, there's not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol is sure doing its job.
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, sweetie.
Lisa: Dad, what if I were to tell you that this rock keeps away tigers.
Homer: Uh-huh, and how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work. It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: I see.
Lisa: But you don't see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: (Looks around) Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.
Point noted, but I'm sure in the course of a year you come into contact with a lot more than 20 people. 30 years ago, the US was criticizing other governments for wholesale spying on their own people ... now they're killing freedom to preserve it ("We liberated the village by destroying it.")
Why shouldn't I. The americans are so proud about their WW2 victory and now they're essentially in the same path as the Germans were. I personally find it funny that they would sacrifice their dignity for their perceived safety and future.
I don't think the average American gets it. I could go right now, buy a ticket to fly to any state, walk up to a stranger and end their life. How safe are you really? I wouldn't do this for the reason that I respect life as I would hope they respect others [including myself]. Now that I said this I'll probably get an anal probe at the airport next time... oh well.
So the key to "safety" is co-operation. That means no hording the planet for your own use [oil, pollution, etc, etc], that means equal chances to make it in life [e.g. no class system, rich getting richer, etc]. Right now life is so cheap in most countries [including the States]. Of course this means that most Westerners [and I'm a cannuck so I mean myself too] would have to tone down their quality of life. Why should we live like kings while others suffer? What have you done to build your country? Maybe your grand parents grand parents helped to build your nation but that's long since removed from our lives. We just take everything for granted.
If the states could just get along with others instead of trying to impose imperial rule over them they wouldn't have to treat their own citizens as the enemy.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
How would they feel if we re-framed it like this: "If you're not doing anything wrong in the bathroom, you shouldn't be worried about the government videotaping you there." ... or ... "If you're not doing anything illegal in the bedroom, you shouldn't be worried about the government recording your sex life."
Its the people who see nothing wrong with this (wholesale invasion of privacy) that should be kept an eye on - they're obviously anti-social psycho exhibitionists :-)
There are a few problems that come up with this attitude.
First, as people have stated, the government can think you are doing something wrong even if you aren't, or they can claim you are. Or other people who bear you ill will can "out" you.
Second, what if you don't morally agree with the laws? If you are seeking to change the laws that you find offensive, it would make you an instant target: "he doesn't agree with the law, therefore it's obvious he's breaking it."
Next, there are so many little laws that no one follows or everyone bends. It's illegal to spit in some places for instance, or certain sex acts are illegal. If the government has something else against you, they can leverage these little laws against you. Or they can simply try to expose some embarrassing part of your life, cornering you into working for them for something or other.
Finally, take something like the speed limit. Most people can drive by a police officer at +10mph over the speed limit and not worry about being pulled over for a ticket. Most people think this is just a case of the officer being flexible and reasonable. Unfortunately, there is no room for flexibility or reason in law enforcement. If something requires 'flexibility' and 'reasonableness' then it means it's FLAWED. Here's why: if someone in a beat up old car with dreads smoking a hand-rolled cigarette drives by a cop at +10mph over the speed limit, he's gonna get pulled over. Yup, therein lies the problem with 'flexibility' and 'reasonability.' Most people become passive sheep in the face of it, thinking, oh, it's a good thing to have a law that restricts dangerous behavior but the police won't nab me for it because they're understanding that it's rush hour and it requires situational enforcement. In reality, such laws empower the police to arrest at will. Everyone is breaking the law all the time. Now you just pick who you want to spy on or target. Racial profiling or any other excuse you need to pick on someone, don't worry, chances are they're already breaking the law in some capacity.
Asking people to think is like asking them to buy you a new car
Why did you fail to include the name of the author of this piece? He is Sean Wilentz, and his name is RIGHT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE YOU CUT-AND-PASTED. If you are Sean Wilentz, then I admire your humility and deference to the matter at hand. But I kind of doubt that this is the case.
If you are not Sean Wilentz, then plagiarizing his work to fluff up your karma on Slashdot, and failing lazily to even credit him for the words he wrote, means that you are a disgracefully lazy person.
The lemmings that reward this sort of behavior are the dregs of society, and are at least partly to blame. But you chose an excellent article, presented it as your own, and unless you are in fact the author of the article, you ought to be ashamed of your behavior.
It's such a tiny (but significant) thing to credit the author of a piece of writing -- why not do so?
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
Remember they are talking about individuals! So fellow slashdot reader, when they tap you, they tap your mother and father upstairs..
Think about it in terms of households involved; then those people they communicate with.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
For a good reference for just how "managed" mainstream news networks are, check out Media Matters.
Especially interesting is the false claims made by the administration in the lead up to the Iraq war. They have a great section detailing several media personalities.
Also, most on topic, the search results for their domestic spying topic.
Speaking of jokes ...
Q: How can you tell Cheney is lying?
A: Bush's lips are moving.
Q: Why doesn't the Bush cabinet use condoms?
A: There's no end to those pricks.
Q: Why aren't there more sex scandals in the Bush cabinet?
A: They're too busy f*cking the rest of the country.
Top reasons why the post office had to recall the GWB/Cheney Freedom stamp?
- people were spitting on the wrong side
- they're so sleezy that even the glue won't stick
- in tests, postal workers would insist on hand-cancelling each one, over and over and over
- any mail with one would automatically be classified as "suspicious" or "junk"
- nobody would pay 33 cents for it
When it was pointed out that normally, you can't "honor" a living personhttp://www.usps.com/news/online/02_0314_2.htm
Gee, sounds like today's FBI (a k a Feeb Central) who ignored over 124 tips portending to 9/11/01 attack.
Gee, who would want to commit an attack of terror on the US? Isn't it the US who commits acts of terror on others (a la Cocoa Cola, United Fruit, etc., etc.)?Terrorists should just be shot instead.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The problem is the lack of oversight and accountability. There are no safeguards against abuse, guaranteeing that there will be abuse.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
And we had a process for putting Japanese in camps. Yet, somehow, nobody seems to remember that it can happen here too.
A wise man once said "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing." We would do well to remember that.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
"outside of 2001, fewer people have died in America from international terrorism than have drowned in toilets. Hell, if you consider how many people die from eating peanuts each year then it really is them that you should be afraid of..."
Well.. to be fair, people dying from peanuts doesn't have the same economic impact of people dying in a flaming collapsing building. Love the rest of your post, but I'm feeling nitpicky today.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
OK, subgenius...would you please explain to me what that illiterate half-wit Geo. W. Bush has ever done right? Aside from being born into the Bush Dynasty????
Cocaine habit, perhaps? Drunken driving, perhaps? Not fulfilling his Texas Air National Guard obligation (which he was damn lucky to get as he was so far back on the waiting list and his aptitude scores were abysmal and would normally disqualify him from flight training)?
I wake up every day and cannot believe that moron could possibly be in the White House...what has this nation and society come to?
per having a judge issue a subpeona to get your GWB bobblehead dool surfing habits revealed.
A) In a SANE world, he'd have been held or released on the basis of his actual infringement (flying through Bush's Secret Magical Zone). Websurfing habits would not come into play because it would have nothing to do with it.
B) How would the judge issue a warrant to get their past websurfing habits? Is this the real secret that Bush is hiding from us? That the NSA employs Timecops? If so why don't they just go back in time and kill my gr
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
I figured as much.
What are the odds?
Population of 300 million, at least 200,000 slashdot users (allowing for multiple nics, dead accounts,etc), 3500 subpoenas
multiply by 2 to allow an average of 2 users per computer in family situations (because it may be the spouse or child of a user who is being directly monitored, and the slashdot user is just a collateral intercept). = 400,000 people
300,000,000 population / 3,500 subpoenas = 1 out of every 85,714 people.
400,000/85714 = 4.6 people.
In other words, we should expect at least 4 people on slashdot to be the subject, either directly, or indirectly, of one of the subpoenas.
Now keep in mind that they don't have to request even a "secret" subpoena if its classified as "training" - so we can safely multiply that 4.6 by some factor ...
So it may not be BS.
facetious
adj.
Playfully jocular; humorous: facetious remarks.
What?
That's how most men become homosexuals. They accidentally go into a gay bar, and the next thing they know, they're sucked into the homosexual lifestyle.
we started to notice . . . a few rainbows posted around the place
I'm sure you know by now to only go into bars that have a leather motif if you want to avoid gay bars.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
Listen, if those clowns actually had the brains and resources reputed to them, why not go for the most easiest and damaging "assymetric warefare" possible: infecting a carrier with any number of diseases and letting them loose in the US - pretty easy thing to do, right before or leading up to 9/11/01????
Yeah, I feel really secure with a deserter and a super-greedy draft-dodger in control.
I do think that the 9/11 attacks were for this end, being afraid of terrorism, changing what you do in you life is letting the terrorist win; it gives them what they want.
Also, keep in mind that according to the 9/11 report, that the reason there was no warning was because the bad guys did not use any electronic form of communication.
So, either terrorists are now dumber than they used to be, or the American public is.
Canadians did it too...
Except now we're run by "immigants" [purposefully mispelt] so I think we got enough diversity to avoid "they took er juubs!"
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I personally find it funny that they would sacrifice their dignity for their perceived safety and future.
Not dignity but honor. And our Benjamin Franklin didn't think it funny, but he did warn us.
No, you have to exclude all foreigners.
They get to track us for 'free'. No paperwork required.
Well, it depends. If they guy with the peanut allergy is driving a gasoline tanker truck when he has an allergic attack, or piloting an airplane, there could be a pretty good amount of collateral damage.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
What if some aids infected inmate had decided to make one of my buddies his new girlfriend for the night? That would have been a lot worse than having your rights trampled per having a judge issue a subpeona to get your GWB bobblehead dool surfing habits revealed. Or is there someone out there who would rather have had the aids?
If the terms "President" & "F-16" preceed "Overnight Holding", you don't have any aids infested inmates to worry about, rest assured you'll each either be in solitary, or accompanied by an undercover "inmate".
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
or bobble as the case may be
Although, at least in my experience, civil service / government contractors seem to have a higher percentage of union employees than most other groups.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Second most ISPs don't keep logs on your current web traffic, it's simply too much data to keep, most ISPs don't keep router logs more then a week (if they keep them at all, which themselves are useless and can takes hours to match them with DHCP logs and then with websites), DHCP logs are kept for a greater amount of time. Second the FBI doesn't care if you visit the normal anti-GWB websites, they might care if you visited it at the same time as going to Jihad Jim's bomb making HOWTO.
Also none of the pilots have been arrested because violating a TFR is not a crime, it's a regulatory action between the pilot and the FAA. The passengers would not have been effected one bit, since they did nothing wrong.
I had a similar thought when I saw this. But I also had to wonder how long it will be until such information is kept from public view, on the basis of "National Security"?
The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
What about non-citizens? They aren't counted in the 3k(presumably) and they, presumably, have also been searched without a subpoena...
Ninjas and pirates. How piquant.
First, I think this story is transparent BS. I don't think any of it happened. But let's assume it did; the false choice the poster presents at the end -- either have your websurfing habits faxed to the field agent or face rape and disease -- is the most ludicrous thing I've heard all week. Exactly how were his websurfing habits relevant? In what way did that information save him from a night in jail? Why would he need to be detained until those records can be released? Never mind the tenuous link to him being raped.
I'm intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
He's just big-boned.
-Robert Heinlein
I have to admit, I was torn myself, until last year. The response to Katrina pretty much proved that the current administration isn't nearly cunning enough to think their way out of a paper bag, much less orchestrate a massive conspiracy involving thousands of people.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
>I also wonder how many of the people were bona fide terrorists...
More particularly, how many were the kind of mass-casualty terrorists who rise to the level of being a national security problem?
It only took twenty hijackers, plus some amount of logistics, finance and support, to commit the New York atrocity in 2001. There have been lots of arrests since then, but a paucity of convictions, so we haven't added much data.
Suppose all 3501 of the FBI information requests were for info on actual terrorists. The question then would be, why have things been so quiet?
Imagine if your friend was not white. Imagine if he was a muslim. Imagine if he was an arab. You think he might have ever shown up again?
evil is as evil does
>Hell, if you consider how many people die from eating peanuts each year then it really is them that you should be afraid of...
...
Iran exports peanuts
>currently most of the media runs "managed" news
Is it really still "news" when it's a bunch of photo ops, press briefings, and the kind of "balance" that gives equal time to Anthony Zinni and to Karl Rove?
What an argument! If we allow secret subpoenas to occur in this country, we can prevent the spread of AIDs.
Okay, well, it would have taken that to get my attention, yes. The Rolling Stone version is easier to read - narrower column widths make long text passages easier to absorb. Rolling Stone adds credibility, too - to the point of view, if not the re-post action itself.
"The Internet is made of cats."
Are you kidding ? Do you realise how complicated it is to make sure no particle of nut ever gets in food in all those plants (leading to those "may contain traces of nut" labels) ?
This quickly becomes quite expensive.
Not to mention the R&D that goes into usability testing for the food on the airlines leading to "open bag, eat contents" (that might be a different kind of nut though).
Anyway nuts cost money.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
If your colon isn't doing anything wrong there's no reason to be afraid of the proctologist!
Now bend over please !
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
An outrageously deceptive headline by CNN. Didn't anybody read the damn article?
Report reveals number of secret FBI subpoenas
Disclosure mandated as part of Patriot Act renewal
Associated Press - Friday, April 28, 2006
CNN
The first two paragraphs read:
What is posited is the UnAmerican idea that a National Security Letter issued in direct contradiction to the Fourth Amendment's dictates can somehow justifiably termed a "warrant"
This is what it should mean to you and any other real American. It is reprehensible that the citizenry remains complacent and the acquiescent in the face of tyrannical acts by an exectuive branch so arrogant, incompetent and derelict that the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks of September 11, 2001, happened while they were tasked with duty upon the Nation's watchtower, and their first act, after Mr. Bush quit circling Kansas in Air Force One, was to violate their solemnly sworn duty to defend and uphold the Constitution. Just how many ways does the term Miserable Failure apply to GW Bush and his Administration?
The Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution is in clear and plain language. We do not need nine old magniloquent asses who openly display their fetish for black satin moo moos to augur the Constitution's entrails in an effort to divine its original intent:
Was your Education in English so dismal that you fail to undertand the meaning of "shall not be violated". Can you not understand that an executive fiat does not fit within the strictures of "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation"? To Define a National Security Letter a warrant is itself an act violative of the US Constitution.
All legitimacy to govern America is grounded within the Contstitution. Governmental acts which are patently in opposition to the US Constitution are tyrannical acts by unlawful wielders of political power.
There is no terror exception, and the Bush Administration has time and time again shown itself to be derisive of the Constitution, antithetical to the Dreamntime America, and afraid of the Law of the land.
A president, " whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free People. "
Now, why doesn't someone prove one more time just how far from grace Contemporary Conservatism has fallen into the sepsis of situationalism, and laughably toss up the lame ad hominem attack that I am a lefty. If my standing to resist obvious tyranny in defense of liberty is of and by itself proof I am a lefty, then I am indeed correct regarding the American Conservatives' absolute lack of personal honour.
Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
For the record...
Try talking to some actual structural engineers instead of just your fellow conspiracy 'experts'. For instance, a cousin of mine in the southeast US that designs... ta-da! office buildings. He had a vague memory of university professors (circa 1980) being scornful of some of the new skyscrapers for not having enough 'safety net' in the load bearing department. The specific scenario he could remember involved some Houston-area skyscrapers built in the late 1970's, and the new 757 or 767 then entering service. Guess what happened?
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Here's an example of something you should keep around: Note to self: stop saying buddies.
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
Mostly good points, and the parent definitely sounded fake. I would like for you to consider something called the "browser cache" however.
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
—Patrick Henry
There was a time when some Americans thought freedom was worth risking their safety for. In fact, many people who sign up to serve their country still think that. It's a pity that so many people at home seem to have forgotten and would so easily cast aside hard won liberties. Have the courage to stand up for your freedoms and keep it "the land of the free and the home of the brave" rather than giving in to fear and cowardice.
"You call it a new way of thinking; I call it regression to ignorance!" -- Operation Ivy
The problem is, people are asking how does this affect me. The problem is that government has this broad sweeping power to use at their discretion. Just because it hasn't affected you yet doesn't mean it's not your problem.
It should also be pretty obvious that, by cutting and pasting the final line from the webpage they used (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/profile/story/99 61300/the_worst_president_in_history) the plagiarist could have given full credit to the author with almost no additional effort.
That's what pisses me off the most -- failure to attribute the words in question to the person who wrote them. It's not too much to ask.
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
I'll tell you what percentage will bother me: 2,986. That's how many innocent people were killed on September 11th by terrorists.
I love my freedoms. And I think the FBI and the Patriot Act and all that are going overboard in "protecting" me. But I'm not going to forget what they're protecting me from.
You have to find and maintain a balance, and given the threats that US forces are encountering in Iraq and Afghanistan, well, let's just say I'm glad we haven't seen the US stock market lose $1.2 trillion dollars in value in a single week again.
and other supposed terrorists who are protesting our involvement in the Iraq War.
Meanwhile, Osama is happily living in Pakistan.
Will in Seattle
timation on my part... following...
My opponent only "slightly" misunderestimated me, so I'll be briefer than he, hehhe
Jeeezuhhhssss!!!!!
I'm glad SOMEbody's posting longer ones than I do, hehehhehe.....
I expected only ONE or TWO more paragraphs, but man, I was stunned, amazed AND impressed at the length.... He must be on a school break...
----------
But, if the Terrorits want the current administration to collapse maybe the only need wait for it to slither out of office by SIMPLY NOT ATTACKING THE US or its interests until this administration is GONE, swept out with the dust and mold. Hopefully, the NEXT administration WILL be less ass-kicking and swaggering. MAYBE the T's MIGHT tone down, too. I believe tht since OBL has NOT been found, and Hussein was a easier target, the most likely is a connection between the OBL family oil ties (and other ties) to the current cabal/cadge and they will NOT just "kill him off". It's easy and distracting to put up a $35 million bounty on the head of "The Brain", and all these other cute/sardonic/witty names to the top lieutenants, but decapitating OBL is like cutting a hornet's nest off the tree and waiting for it to fall and burst open. Only, the admin, the limb cutter, is not wearing enough armor, and too much armor would slow things to a crawl. Best not to have a picnic, ball game, or shit-kicking hee-haw shindig around a hornet's or bees' nest.
Maybe the admin ought to go and watch "Swarm" or similar b-movies and draw analogies to their conduct as it relates to self-appointed spokespeople of the oppressed. The best way to make 'merkuh less of a T-target is to STOP doing the ACTIVE/domination things that piss off not only Terrorists, but the US FRIENDS, too. Most of them are NOT interested in becoming a fricking bomb recipient. Yeh, the LOVE US tech and weaponry and the billions the US prints and trucks or flies over to them for supposed safekeeping of those economies, but if they get hit by collateral damaged instigated by the US (and explicitly, the ELIGIBLE INFORMED (not tarring ALL of the voting-age potentials...) US voting public apathy or willingness to "buy into" whatever they're spoonfed by any given administration), the will NOT want to hear, "Well, so you lost a few people and a neighborhood; welcome to the new era..."
Tellingly, look at Cambodia, which recently reFUSED to send troops to the Middle East. Their reason? "We've been torn apart by war and destruction. We're TIRED OF WAR." I haven't seen any US-administration followups, but I imagine some envoy or kneecapper went over to give them a one-two shakeup call. OTOH, maybe not. The US wouldn't want bad news to keep festering up or indicate henchmen are actually roughing people (leaders/envoys, etc) up. Moreover, China and Cambodia have some ties, and if China so far is not a major or even MINOR Terrorist target when the US is.....
Finally, I've been reading up on some Asian Affairs stuff... MOST Asian nations care more about economy and prosperity and just catching up, and LESS about "democracy", particularly US-STYLE democracy. They are eying CHINA, and China's "Peaceful Growth" messages. These are many of the same nations badgered and bullied by the US during the Cold War in the US bid to staunch and crush socialism and communism China/Russia-style (or, maybe China/Russia-style socialism and communism). They are actually NOT too terribly interested in being mashed up by deep alliances with the US.
India, Korea (the South, obviously), Japan, and Australia ARE hard-up to get Aegis SPY-1D-related technology, but I dare say MOST of them wouldn't NEED it if they actually had a heart to heart with their neighbors rather than side with nations that try to keep them divided. Once Korea wakes up, they'll realize that it's harder than HELL to get the US out. Wait, they've already waken from that dream sequence, and they found they LIKE the comfort of the US protection umbrella. Same can be similarly said of Japan. But, this gets really nasty REALLY quick
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
And later....
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
How would the judge issue a warrant to get their past websurfing habits?
The ISP is required to keep the URL history for x months and the judge issues a warrant so the NSA may officially use it?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
What are the odds that there are 3000 invividual situations that legitmately warrant issuing a secret subpeona.
In a country of 300,000,000 people and a huge number of visitors and "undocumented guests"? When one person could have multiple subpoenas applied to them? When even a single foreign country has 3,000 front companies in the US used for espionage? I'm thinking that isn't too unlikely at all.
Let it be sealed, let it be 'secret' that way but there needs to be a check to the power of law enforcement.
There already is more than one check, among them are policy, the law, the Constitution, prosecutorial discretion, rules of evidence, judges, juries, trials, appeals, and legislative oversight.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Meanwhile at the FBI headquarters in Quanaco, VA...
FBI Director: "DAMN IT! Now they'll know well be spying on them! What would J. Edgar Hoover do?"
Deupty Director: "Sir these instructions were left in a time vault by Senator McCarthy. They cerntainly don't follow the rules of the Constitution."
FBID: "Phst! Consitituion, Monsititution. WWJEHD?"
Flashback 40 years:
JEH: "I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK! I sleep all night and I work all day! I cut down trees, I skip and jump, I like to press wild flowers. I put on women's clothing, And hang around in bars..."
The Rapture is NOT an exit strategy.
For a comparison, numbers for 2002 according to the CDC:
Total deaths: 2,443,387
Heart Disease: 696,947
Accidents: 106,742
Suicide: 31,655
Homicide: 17,638
Do you really think terrorism is going to hit you?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
I suppose by your reasoning we should give up on watching the mafia too, eh? After all, one of the main goals of the Patriot Act was to make investigative techniques already in use against the mafia available to use against terrorists.
How many degrees of separation are you from John Gotti? Or, for that matter, how many from Bin Laden?
And here I was thinking that they were trying to find people planning to plan bombs, poison people, funnel hundreds of thousands of dollars into terrorist organizations, or fly more planes into buildings when I guess we are watching pizza delivery guys, paper boys, and girl scouts selling door to door. Live and learn, I guess. I wonder how much bigger of a promotion an FBI agent gets for following a trail of associations to find a nerd living in mom's basement surfing porn instead of finding a ring of 19 people funneling funds to terrorist organizations? Based on the noise levels it must be substantial.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
:long post warning:
A lot of people posting don't get the real scale of this.
From the article: 2,072 from FISC, 3,501 from FBI... in 2005.
2072+3501=5573.
Also from the article:
"more than twice as many as were issued in 2000".
Let's focus on 2000-now.
Let's assume that in 2000, exactly half of the number issued in 2005 were issued.. 5573/2 ~= 2787.
Now.. some quick math tells us that's a ~15% increase per year.
So from 2000-2006: 2787, 3233, 3750, 4350, 5046, 5773, 6697.. total: 31,636.
Here comes the fun part. The "B" side of all these conversations that are monitored. No one talks to themselves on the phone/internet, right?
The average person (according to data I found, no source, insert your own number here) has 17.33 "regular " acquaintances.
That's 548,252 US citizens/residents being monitored.
There were 217,766,271 18+ citizens as of 2003. (source: Census Bureau)
In 2005 the population growth rate was 0.95%. (source: CIA Factbook)
Assuming the pop. growth was the same for 2004, 2005, 2006 there are now 224,031,757 citizens.
548252/224031757 = 408.
1:408.
ONE IN FOUR HUNDRED AND EIGHT US CITIZENS ARE BEING SPIED ON.
The GDR called, they want their practices back.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Nope. Do you really think the FBI is going to secret subpeona all your data?
The point is the principle of the matter: left to their own devices, terrorists (and/or the FBI, for that matter) are going to be coming after me, sooner or later. I'm more afraid of the terrorists.
That's why I'm taking these reports with a grain of salt. What the FBI has to do to keep us safe is unfortunate, but probably neccessary. At least for now...
Your concerns seem to be:
The US government's counter-terrorist surveillance program is generally effective and keeping terrorism in the US at low levels.
That, despite its heavy press coverage at the time and seemingly endless references on Slashdot, the media's attention toward a contrived study rushed into publication in an influential foreign publication in a blatant attempt to influence a US election has fallen to merely occasional reference instead of continuous.
The media focuses on the victims of terrorism and not of the suffering of the terrorists when captured or killed. The focus on the victims includes the poor Iraqis who are the continuing victims of both Islamists, and Saddam's remaining forces fighting as guerillas after having been removed from the positions of power which they used to put hundreds of thousands of Iraqis into mass graves. ( At least the Iraqis are dying at a considerably lower rate than when ruled by Saddam. The rate should fall considerably this year as the Iraqi government continues to grow stronger and more Iraqis are drawn into the political process.)
The mainstream media doesn't carry much important news like this.
I think I can identify your concerns, but, other than the last one, not why they should bother you.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
That's a viewpoint I hear all the time, and I must confess that I'm completely mystified by it. Do people who believe this think the government will never abuse it's power?
Governments are not even single entities in this respect. They tend to have all sorts of semi-autonymouse departments as well as containing corrupt/criminal individuals with huge power at their disposal.
They're abusing their power right now and have many times before -- that's true of almost every government in human hisotry.
Historically governments tend to consider political opponents a much greater threat than criminals/terrorists in general.
You'd have nothing to fear when doing nothing wrong only if the government was completely honest. The more power they have the more they'll abuse it, as they keep proving every day.
Not only does "power corrupt" it also tends to be the case that power attracts the corrupt.
> outside of 2001, fewer people have died in America from
>international terrorism than have drowned in toilets.
There you go being soft on terrorism by excluding 9/11.
I like to say 9/11 was about a year-and-a-half of pedestrian deaths in the U.S. Being a frequent pedestrian myself, I think we should have a war on drivers.
We can't just go and exclude incidents from the total figures or who knows what we might come up with. Saddam may have killed 1/2 a million Kurds but in the 90s the estimate was that he was killing about 2,000 people/year in his prisons. If the figure that we killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians by 2004 was accurate, it would have taken Saddam 50 years to do that himself. People might start wondering whether our freedom-loving occupation has worked out so well.
Sure, we see the TV ads about illiteracy. Where are the ads about the social dangers of innumeracy?
Sorry kids,
100 percent true.
Caution: Contents under pressure
It IS sad. The most effective way to find terrorists is with what they call HUMINT - human intelligence.
Not spying on everyone, everywhere. All you'll be able to do, in most cases, is spot them too late.
The real problem is its easier to look like you're "doing something" by spending money on surveillance hardware and infrastructure, than properly-trained operatives. So the politicians spend the money where it will polish their image, by investing in such things as Echelon.
Of course, an even more effective way would be not to be so bellicose on the world stage, but again, the current crop of politicians find it more important to polish their image than to actually achieve anything.
Feel free to substitute "support their hidden agenda" for "polish their image" :-)
The terrorists didn't kill many people even before secret subpoenas were introduced. Other nations manage to catch terrorists wihout SS. I'm really not convinced that seret subpoenas are the only way to prevent terrorism.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
True, but a search of the physical premises (unless permission granted by his wife at home) would require a traditional warrant, and the computer would not be analyzed at his home, it would be boxed up and sent to a forensics lab. Both of which would take more then a couple of hours to do, and obtain any results.
Also even the FBI doesn't work that fast to get that type of data, even if the data is obtained under that Patriot Act from the ISP (if they keep such indepth records,) it would takes hours for them to get even a rough guess what websites you visited.
Just
Exactly what makes you such a hot shot know it all? You seem to spends a lot more time on slashdot than monitoring your TFR violations.
> Just because you claim that it's true doesn't make it so.
About the only thing you have said that has any validity. But, in this case it was true.
> I don't remember any (i.e. TFR violations) that match your discription (interspection 2 hours later)
That's not surprising given I didn't even say where it occurred.
And just exactly what is an "interspection"? That's not even a word. Who is making up things here?
> nor does any of the actions match the established procedure
Excuse me. I didn't even detail what did happen. You have no idea what my friends did, beyond changing course to avoid weather on a cross-country flight. You have no idea what the F16 did, when/where the dog came into play, what the police did, what the secret service did, nothing, you are clueless as to it all. You are deluding yuorself into thinking nothing happened because I didn't detail every minute of my friends' ordeal. I did say that I wanted to keep the story short thank you very much.
> If you buddy was a passenger, there would be no reason for him to be detained beyond the questioning, because he did nothing wrong
You tell that to the secret service. They will laugh you out of the ballpark.
> if he was the pilot, the same would be true, but regulatory action would ensue if he was at fault.
Did I say there was no penalty? Did I say my pilot buddy got off scott-free? No I did not. He lost his pilots license (at least temporarily) thank you very much.
> Also even the FBI doesn't work that fast to get that type of data,
Once again, how do you know? Because you don't. You are living in you own little fantasy world where you believe what you want to believe. Anything outside of your little rose-colored glasses apparently doesn't exist.
Grow up and realize that you are not the center of all knowledge.
Caution: Contents under pressure
A simple spelling error. I forgot to spell check the entry.
Yes I do think I know more then you, because TFRs is in my world, something me and a few pilot buddies have started a database (which current stretches back to 09/14/2001) and campaign to help fight. I go out of my way to collect information on military and US Customs service interceptions (which TFR violation interceptor responsibility is being moved to), we even attempt to contact the pilots when the name is released.
When something seems so very unlike established procedure, yes I got to question it, particularly when the facts don't live up to IT facts that I encounter in the real world, I have worked as a Network Administrator on both sides network pipe (both hosting and at the ISP level), we would have a hard time. We have responded to the Patriot Act requests, and none would have gotten them the data you described unless it was in their e-mail. It would also be unprofessional and be very unlike the FBI agents that I have had the pleasure of working with (who seemed to understand more then my boss how very busy I could get).
So when you account doesn't match up on both levels, I am going to call BS.
You tell that to the secret service. They will laugh you out of the ballpark.
Actually they won't, they can't. All you have to say is those magic words "I want to speak with my attorney." If they refuse that, you can refuse to answer their questions, they also can't detain you beyond a short amount of time, without charing you, or having just cause. Those are legal realities that can only be changed by being declared and enemy combatant. Also violating a TFR is not considered just cause, as it is not a criminal action, and can not be construed as one.
He lost his pilots license (at least temporarily) thank you very much.
Very unlikely, since you said he notified ATC, I am going to assume he was under ATC either under flight following or on an IFR flight plan, either way a half way descent aviation law attorney can easily shift the blame on the Air Traffic Controller. Also speaking of IFR flight plans, many TFRs allow a pilot to transit them under the permission of ATC.
Well thats all the time I feel like spending on this subject on Slashdot, this time I even remembered to spell check.
In prior years, attacks within Iraq were not happening. You know, years prior to the invasion of Iraq.
My book, podcast
They have no effect on terrorism, no effect on future actions. Airtravel is now one of the safest ways of travel, as there is no way another terror act will use commercial airplanes, bur rather something we have not even considered.
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
The most commonly heard pickup line in a gay bar is "pardon me, can I push in your stool"?
HA HA!
Libertas in infinitum
as per my AIM profile: "Your right to walk the streets unmolested by the police outweighs my right not to get blown up." and I stick by it. There will never be another hijacking like 9/11 anyway. The only reason it was pulled off is because somethign like that had never been done with a hijacked plane before. You shout that you're hijacking a plane in a crowded aircraft right now, and even if you have an uzi I bet all that's left of you in 10 seconds is chunky salsa.