China Employs Campus Internet Overseers

d'alz writes "China's Internet police, reportedly including as many as 50,000 state agents, have monitored the Chinese citizenry's online habits. They have blocked Web sites, erased commentary and arrested people for what is deemed anti-Party, or anti-social, speech. Several hours each week Hu Yingying, a college student, goes to a little-known on-campus office crammed with computers. There she logs on, unsuspected by other students, to help police her university's Internet forum." From the article: "Under the Civilized Internet initiative, service providers and other companies have been urged to purge their servers of offensive content, ranging from pornography to anything that smacks of overt political criticism or dissent. The Chinese authorities say that more than two million supposedly 'unhealthy' images have already been deleted under this campaign by various mainland Internet service providers, and more than six hundred supposedly 'unhealthy' Internet forums were shut down. These deletions are presented as voluntary acts of corporate civic virtue, but have a coercive aspect to them, because no company would likely risk being singled out as a laggard."

Comments

Chilling

[TripMaster Monkey]

From TFA:

Hu says she and her fellow moderators try to steer what they consider negative conversations in a positive direction with a well-placed comment.

So she's a professional astroturfer as well as an informant.

Some more:

Hu is a small part of a huge effort in mainland China to sanitize the Internet.

'Sterilize' the Internet would be more appropriate.

And finally:

"I don't think anybody can possibly control any information in Internet," said Ji Xiaoyin, 20, a third-year Shanghai Normal student studying mechanical design. "If you're not allowed to talk here, you just go to another place to talk, and there are countless places for your opinions. It's easy to bypass the firewalls, and anybody who spends a little time researching it can figure it out."

Ji Xiaoyn, please report to your local Party official for reeducation.

Re:Chilling

[iminplaya]

Chilling? Very. But the last quote is very inspiring. The bad guys will only win if we let them.

Re:Chilling

[Anonymous Coward]

+5?

He didn't fucking say anything!

Re:Chilling

[Anonymous Coward]

The ugly truth is that big government trains its victims to know nothing but big government, and to lose the ability to think for oneself and imagine anything but big government. I remember the story about a young victim of communism who, after being relocated to a less oppressive regime, was completely unable to adapt and survive on her own. She literally begged to be taken back and put under the "protection" of her oppressors. Of course, she didn't view them as oppressors -- she had been trained to view them as providers.

Like a caged animal who knows nothing but the cage, it is extremely difficut for a human being who knows nothing but oppression to adapt to where he can survive by his own means. The informant in question here is dealing with exactly this situation: she knows nothing but oppression, yet has been trained to view her oppression as beneficial and inevitable. The people she rats on are those who have more ability or will to think for themselves -- they are the true enemies of big government, because they are the ones who can never be fully trained.

I hate to point it out, but we're dealing with exactly this situation here in the US, only to a somewhat lesser extent. The current generation has known nothing but big government since the day they were born, and will know nothing but big government until the day they die. That, my friends, is a significant milestone in the book of oppression.

Re:Chilling

[WidescreenFreak]

And this is surprising? You must be new here.

The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[blcamp]

Considering the recent ink on Google, is anyone suprised here?

What essentially is happening in China is a 21st Century version of the Cultural Revolution - an electronic purging, if you will, of any "impure" expression among the populace.

You only get one guess as to who decides what "impure" is... or is not.

Interesting (but not at all a shock) that students are recruited to rat out their peers. There must be a big-time carrot being held out to rise up high within Party ranks.

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[Anonymous Coward]

Simplistic and disproportionate comparison don't you think ? The political issues surrounding the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution were much different and more complex and millions of people died during this period.

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[Deagol]

Interesting (but not at all a shock) that students are recruited to rat out their peers. There must be a big-time carrot being held out to rise up high within Party ranks.

The carrot being to not vanish and end up in a Chineese re-education prison?

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[iminplaya]

Interesting (but not at all a shock) that students are recruited to rat out their peers.

Hmmm... Something about cleaning one's own house comes to mind.

FTL: Without any public hearing or debate, NEWSWEEK has learned, Defense officials recently slipped a provision into a bill before Congress that could vastly expand the Pentagon's ability to gather intelligence inside the United States, including recruiting citizens as informants. Emphasis mine

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[Anonymous Coward]

The same thing is happening here in the US, only it's kept hidden behind the democratic process. In fact, over the past century, the US government has far outpaced China in expansion of power.

Oppression is oppression, whether it's imposed by a monarchy, dictatorship, mob rule, local warlord, or democratic republic. The process of government is largely irrelevant to liberty; what matters, as far as the relationship between government and citizen, is the outcome of government. We'd be wise to realize that before it's too late.

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[deevnil]

We've all met ppl that suck up to the boss just for the warm fuzzy feeling of it. Probably don't have to threaten anybody even slightly .. that's just what social climbers do. I wonder how often ppl 'betray' their fellow citizens or if they sincerely think they are helping to keep them out of even worse trouble. I don't agree, but I don't believe that ppl go around being dirtbags so much as opposed to rationalise being dirtbags or avoid becoming an accomplice.

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[tomjen]

In this picture there are forty people. None of them have vanished. In this film we hope to show you how not to vanish.

(Caption on screen: 'HM GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC SERVICE FILM NO. 42 PARA 6. "HOW NOT TO BE VANISH AND END UP IN A CHINEESE REEDUCATION PRISON"')

Now I am going to ask him to speak up. Mr. Bradshaw will you speak up please

(To chineese censors enter and removes Mr. Bradshaw)

Voice Over: This demonstrates the value of not speaking up.

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[HardCase]

...Defense officials recently slipped a provision into a bill before Congress...

Yeah, those defense officials yelled, "LOBBYIST!", and when Congress looked the other way, they slipped the provision in the bill.

Man, if somebody posted a comment like Isikoff's here (which, incidentally, is almost two years old!), /.ers would be on him like stink on shit demanding details. What provision? What bill? What was the vote in the committee? What about the corresponding bill in the House?

BTW, the provision (Section 502) that was "slipped into" the Senate bill (S.2386/HR.4548) was eliminated in the conference committee.

-h-

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[Thud457]

"Bladsraw" is a good Chinese name!

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[jav1231]

The same thing occurs to much lesser extent here in the U.S. People scour the airwaves and Internet and seize upon every opportunity to point out so-called politically incorrect statements. They label them as racist, offensive, and cruel and thus further their agenda. If these people got into power do you really think a Chinese-like regime would be a long shot?

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[iminplaya]

My point is that American citizens are being encouraged to inform on each other also. There is no need to single China out. The U.S. and Europe are rapidly heading in that direction(not informant related, but the idea is the same). Don't even try to deny it. The details that seperate us are very few and quite minor indeed.

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[BluedemonX]

There is also the well-established tradition that "snitches" and "rats" get "overlooked" by law enforcement in terms of what they do for a living.

Just as how in Starsky and Hutch, they didn't bust the pimp cause he always had the dope on bigger fish.

Being allowed to keep your own T1 connection and democracy pr0n might be something that would tempt a citizen of that country to rat on its local 2600 meetup.

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[HardCase]

My point is that American citizens are being encouraged to inform on each other also. There is no need to single China out. The U.S. and Europe are rapidly heading in that direction(not informant related, but the idea is the same). Don't even try to deny it. The details that seperate us are very few and quite minor indeed.

Not at all the same and if that was your point, you haven't even come close to making it. A provision to allow intelligence agencies to conduct investigations without revealing the reason for the investigation was proposed two years ago and deep sixed. That has nothing to do with encouraging American citizens to inform upon each other - now maybe you're thinking of the DOJ plan a few years ago that encouraged Americans to report suspicious activity via a toll-free hotline. Now, I'll agree that was a pretty poorly conceived and executed plan that never should have seen the light of day. It was gone very quickly - the spectre of Senator McCarthy is still rather uncomfortable to a lot of Americans.

And the link regarding Dr. Wang - it has nothing at all to do with your point. In fact, she misused her press credentials. It doesn't mean that the reason for her protest is not valid, but, like many forms of non-violent protest, there are consequences to actions. While she claims that she was only committing civil disobedience, not a crime, she seems to not realize that the one can lead to the other. Freedom of speech does not imply that you can say anything you want anywhere you want. That's certainly nothing new in the US.

So, yes, I deny that the differences between the US and China are are few and minor. The differences are extraordinary.

And, for the record, if what Dr. Wang (and others) say is true, then I agree with what she says. But not with the venue that she chose.

-h-

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[iminplaya]

You're picking nits. We are simply using different, possibly less harsh(for now) methods to do the exact same thing they do. In most cases, IP law is still an effective way to silence people without jail time. If it fails, they will use the same law with harsher penalties. The reasons we arrest protesters are quite palatable to you evidently. You talk about violation of press privileges, etc. and that we should expect harsh consequences for exercising our rights. Well, that sounds just as authoritarian as they do. We pay taxes to protect those rights, not to be penalized for using them. From the Chinese POV, their reasons could be just as valid. Already, I'm hear middle class Chinese defending their methods. Of course they do. Why rock the boat just when things are getting good? It's no different from the Americans who defend the patriot act. China has political prisoners(doesn't everybody?). We have "enemy combatants".

While she claims that she was only committing civil disobedience, not a crime, she seems to not realize that the one can lead to the other.

There was a person who posted here who said he was from China. I thought I book marked it. I guess not. His comment was something to the effect that the pro-democracy element can be quite dangerous. Pretty much what you just posted. So exercising your essential freedoms can lead to crime? "I did not know that." On who's part? The protester's or the cop's?

In fact, she misused her press credentials.

That's precisely what I'm talking about. You're using specious reasoning to do what we accuse the Chinese of doing. In fact, I'm sure they can deny a person's rights just as eloquently. Sorry, that doesn't wash. She was arrested to appease the Chinese President. Nothing more. If Castro or Chavez was the guest, Bush would have given her the stage.

And, for the record, if what Dr. Wang (and others) say is true, then I agree with what she says. But not with the venue that she chose.

So arrest and possible deportation for speaking "out of place" is ok? Shame. If we didn't have a law that prohibits that kind of thing, I would still disagree, but I could understand. But we do have that law, and it was violated when they placed her under arrest. All that was necessary was to escort her out of the room. Like they have done for other hecklers. And the issue would be dead as far as I'm concerned. As it was, we have demonstrated that we are birds of a feather, and as always, it's really about money anyway.

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[HardCase]

I'm not picking nits - you said (and I'm paraphrasing you much better than you did me) that there is little difference between the US and China.

If you truly believe that, then I'm not going to change your mind, so I guess the debate ends - you're letting hyperbole and FUD take the place of facts.

However, I will point out that I did not say that we should expect harsh consequences for exercising our rights. Read what I said again.

In the US, you have the freedom to say what you wish. You do not necessarily have the freedom to say what you wish anywhere you wish to say it. And that's nothing new, nor is it some sort of repression of your rights. As the saying goes, there is a time and a place for everything. In this case, it would appear that Dr. Wang was tremendously out of place. Does Dr. Wang deserve to be deported? I don't know - but common sense would tell her that she was certainly risking it.

Now, if her case actually goes to court, you'll see a very significant difference between the US and China. The court will be open and she will be well represented. But I suspect that it will not even come to that. I suspect that the charges will be dropped and this will pass on.

As I've mentioned, I'm not going to change your mind, so I'm not going to waste my time and yours explaining why your reply is filled with inaccurate conjecture and pretzel logic.

And, as I've been saying all along, you really haven't made the point that somehow, in America, we're all encouraged to turn each other in. Before you took this detour, I think that was what you were trying to prove.

-h-

Re:The "Great Firewall" is for real.

[iminplaya]

Now, if her case actually goes to court, you'll see a very significant difference between the US and China. The court will be open and she will be well represented. But I suspect that it will not even come to that. I suspect that the charges will be dropped and this will pass on.

Such is the great power of public relations. This is why China will ultimately "soften up" while we head the other direction, away from freedom.

Too bad you don't want to keep this going. I'm enjoying the discussion. I'm merely trying to show that all our intentions are the same. The only difference is the method involved. We all share the same animal instincts. Of that there can be no doubt. I'm not sure if you have ever lived in China. I have never been there. But if you haven't lived there, like a regular Chinese, I don't believe you're any more qualified to say what is really happening there than I am. So look for a Chinese person to discuss this with, and feel free to discuss this thread. The ones I meet and party with act just like we do (should I be surprised?). We both know better than to discuss work, religion, and politics at the bar.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[L0neW0lf]

So, I am not sure if China and the U.S. are really all of that different today.

In the U.S. if content the government dislikes is printed or spoken by a journalist who chooses to do so, they don't end up sentenced to forced labor, or worse, end up with their family billed for the price of the bullet used to execute them.

I'd say there's more of a difference than you think.

It all happens here too!

[malsdavis]

We have tens of thousands of agents who monitor and take down websites here in the West also.

They're called Intellectual Property Lawyers.

Funny how everyone (mainstream soceity atleast) thinks it is so evil when other cultures impose their values, but completely OK when we impose ours.

Re:It all happens here too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said we thought it was OK?

Re:It all happens here too!

[Anonymous Coward]

IP lawyers may bankrupt you, but they won't try to "re-educate" you or put you up against a wall and shot.

Re:It all happens here too!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure they would try if they thought they could get away with it!

Re:It all happens here too!

[portwojc]

Oh please it's not the same. For one they don't really care about intellectual property rights over there. They do care if someone mentions this.

Re:It all happens here too!

[EricTheGreen]

Being a drunk does not render moot one's opinions on the evils of excessive drinking.

Re:It all happens here too!

[hometoast]

We have tens of thousands of agents who monitor and take down websites here in the West also.

Yes. They're called slashdotters; bringing unsuspecting websites to their knees daily.

Re:It all happens here too!

[Anonymous Coward]

"they won't try to "re-educate" you or put you up against a wall and shot."

Really? I guess it's my imagination that big media companies are using their vast resources to one-sidedly promoting the belief that filesharing = stealing despite the fact apparently hundreds of millions of people disagree.

    And I guess when the FBI raids a place at gunpoint that's imaginary too.

Re:It all happens here too!

[pla]

We have tens of thousands of agents who monitor and take down websites here in the West also. They're called Intellectual Property Lawyers.

Yeah, and we here at Slashdot so often express our love and admiration for those fine men and women who help protect our poor defenseless billionaire corporate executives' bonuses. Golly, you've certainly hit on a glaring hypocrisy there!



Funny how everyone (mainstream soceity atleast) thinks it is so evil when other cultures impose their values, but completely OK when we impose ours.

Who said anyone considers it okay here?

However, even as offensive as I find both groups of pigeons, one substantial difference still remains... The IP lawyers don't play nice to your face then run off "to a little-known on-campus office crammed with computers" to rat out their friends.

IP lawyers should just die. Scum like like Hu Yingying, who betray their friends (a FAR worse moral crime than actual treason) deserve a slow and painful death, if at all possible by the very forces they normally wield. Frame the bitch for doing exactly what they have her monitoring, and rejoice at her life in one of China's rape-and-forced-labor camps (and if that sounds misogynistic, I'd say it sounds even worse for a male rat).

Re:It all happens here too!

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is that here in the US, citizens are taught to believe that whatever is sanctioned by the democratic process is moral and just.

Re:It all happens here too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously stop trying to make silly comparisions that having nothing in common.

Re:It all happens here too!

[malsdavis]

Since when were slashdotters "mainstream society". I admit Slashdot has become very mainstream in recent years but the views of slashdotters are contradictory to those of mainstream America, most of whom see piracy as simply theft.

"The IP lawyers don't play nice to your face then run off "to a little-known on-campus office crammed with computers" to rat out their friends."

This is pretty much exactly what the RIAA has proposed with their idea of having IP enforcement officers on College campuses. It is already done in many colleges from a software perspective.

Re:It all happens here too!

[Ubergrendle]

These are completely, unrelated problems. If I create an original idea, i am free to do with it what I want -- I can discuss it, document/record it, give it away for free, protect it with copyright, secure it with encryption, etc. But the idea itself is still free, and my thought processes are (for the most part) completely legal. I can argue until the cows come home that Bush/Clinton is an idiot, the war on drugs is good/bad, Walmart rescues/destroys communities, etc -- and no one will arrest me or theaten my person.

China is attemting to disuade individual thought, overtly through force (e.g. its a police state) or _covertly_ through secret agents. The covert part is what this article is about, and why this is news worth discussing.

Re:It all happens here too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how everyone (mainstream soceity atleast) thinks it is so evil when other cultures impose their values, but completely OK when we impose ours.

Values? There are no values here. Like most dictatorships, the Chinese dictatorship doesn't like its citizens criticizing the gov't.

You're an idiot.

Re:It all happens here too!

[sgt_doom]

We also, thanks to the minders and shysters of the WTO, also now eat food and produce raised with DDT spraying which was (and I think actually still is) against the law to use in the US - but must be dutifully imported due to WTO laws and regs. Same goes for tuna netted with murdered dolphins. So much for the EPA, FDA, and all the rest of those crooks...

Re:It all happens here too!

[manifoldronin]

Your post is ignorant and illogical on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

Funny how everyone (mainstream soceity atleast) thinks it is so evil when other cultures impose their values, but completely OK when we impose ours.

What makes you think that "everybody should think the way the government wants them to" is part of the "values" in the Chinese culture?

What makes you think that a government (Chinese or not) has any rights whatsoever to interpret the "values" of any culture, let alone "imposing" that interpretation on the people?

And, what makes you think that everybody living in a particular culture has to have the "values" imposed on them?

Don't even try to come back again with your cute "IP lawyers are imposing it on everyone" analogy. That's not "values from a culture", those are laws. You don't like the IP laws? In this country, if you can find enough people having the same opinion, you can change the laws. In a country where speech is constantly sensored, you won't even have a chance to find those others.

Re:It all happens here too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you criticize the war in Iraq.

Re:It all happens here too!

[kz45]

Funny how everyone (mainstream soceity atleast) thinks it is so evil when other cultures impose their values, but completely OK when we impose ours

please.

I hardly consider IP law the same as what the Chinese government is doing. Comparing sharing music and software to people actually getting their right to free speech shows that you do not understand the definition of freedom.

Scary.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does this remind me of A Clockwork Orange?

Heh, my verification image for this post was "inform." Coincidence?

Impossible!

[DAldredge]

This is impossible as we have been told, by numerious "students" from china, on this forum that such things simply do not happen and that the reports of such in the western media are simply because we "don't understand them".

Re:Impossible!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because you think that Communism is a Jewish conspiracy it does not mean that you have to hate Chinese as much as you hate Jews. You can tone down your bullshit anytime you want.

Re:Impossible!

[DAldredge]

Please try harder. That rant only rates a 2 out of 10.

cAT

[zoomshorts]

Well , DUH !!!!! Where exactly, did you think the article mentioned?????

Still, where theres a will, theres a way...

[Abreu]

Eventually China will have to face it, internet usage will grow in such a way that no police will be able to silence its citizens...

-

Then the chinese will be able to enjoy the wonders of extremist political websites, wonder-viagra, animal porn and other wonders of the civilized world

Re:Still, where theres a will, theres a way...

[SpiritGod21]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but since it's absolute, what can you do about it? I'd like to think that a "cultural revolution" is possible in China as well as other places in the world, but with the level of technology and military superiority the government has been gaining over the population, it is unlikely that such a revolution can take place in the modern day.

Three hundred years ago, the peasants could grab their pitchforks and overthrow the government, but citizens today don't have access to the might necessary to fight such a battle when the army can roll in with tanks and helicopters. It doesn't matter that the citizens outnumber the government when the gap of power has grown to be so large.

Re:Still, where theres a will, theres a way...

[Hydrophobia]

They can do what true revolutionaries have done for hundreds of years, be willing to give their lives for something. This my friend is anti-american.....

Re:Still, where theres a will, theres a way...

[Atzanteol]

I don't think the problem is so much whether the government succeeds so much as what lengths it is willing to go to while trying.

Re:Still, where theres a will, theres a way...

[plague3106]

I think some would say if you're not willing to die for freedom, you don't really want it.

There is a saying, better to die free, then live a slave.

Re:Still, where theres a will, theres a way...

[Watson Ladd]

RPG's man. They cost $100-$1,000 for a good one. They take down a $2,500,000 hellicopter. Guess who ends up ahead. Jane's is full of cheap guns that people have designed for simplicity and ease of manufacture. AK-47's are still around. The problem is the citizens have few hard targets, while the goverment can indiscriminantly kill. Goverment can use WMD's, while citizens cannot. The Goverment forces depend on a large amount of infastructure, while the citizens do not. The solution:take it away. Sabotage. If the goverment lose the tanks and heli's and bombers, the rest is a massacare. Or just storm the palace like it's 1917.

Re:Still, where theres a will, theres a way...

[rtb61]

Unfourtunately, in todays high tech age the government is quite capable of taking them all. With modern technology the autocrats dream of being able to monitor all of your citizens/slaves is finally possible.

Corporations who assist in the process are pariahs to their staff, their customers and to their shareholders. Even shareholders have to realise that the dividend they collect is not enough to pay for their corporations willingness to sell out democracy.

Sounds like slashdot

[Anonymose Coward]

Sounds like slashdot, with people handing out bitchslaps. Except the bitchslaps are probably slightly more justified in the PRC.

1984

[ward.deb]

Although I'm not suprised by this at all, it sounds pretty much 1984 to me. I wonder how long China can continue to do this before a vast majority of its people stand up and start protesting. Also, I'm wondering how many Chinese are aware of these Stasi practices...

Re:1984

[Rob T Firefly]

I wonder how long China can continue to do this before a vast majority of its people stand up and start protesting.

Interesting to think of whether being allowed to Google Tiannenmen Square would influence them in one direction or the other.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Next time you visit China just type "tiananmen square" into google and see what you get... or do not get as even this "uprising" in Red China will not be found on the internet in China. China also blocks all encripted internet traffic. If you keep tring to get "tiananmen square" (and you do not move from the coffee shop you are sitting in) eventualy someone will come to arrest you. When the government gets to decide what is appropriate or not you will never be "free"

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

I work with some people from the PRC. They no literally nothing about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_prot ests_of_1989 . Very sad actually.

Re:1984

[deanj]

1984? You mean Double Think?

That's long been going on here with "policatically correct" speech. Don't like the way something's said, say "illegal immigrant?" Just call them "Undocumented Workers", technically correct, but leaving out that whole messy "illegal" part that kinda submarines the whole discussion.

There are a LOT more cases of this... that one is just one that's been in the news recently.

As for how long before the vast majority stand up and start protesting.... I think it'll be a long long time. After the last "protest", I don't think many people there are willing to take a chance.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

But when you're born and raised under a certain system you think it's normal. What China needs is some sort of internal struggle separate from direct confrontation to its censorship policies.

The recent revolts among rural villagers immediately comes to mind, but with a population of over a billion, with fat rich businessmen making outrageous profits off the average citizen that works 12-14 hour days, there is a lot of inertia, and a revolt would have to number high in the millions to even make a dent percentage-wise.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm getting a little fed up of people thinking that the only thing that the chinese people want is to make a revolution/civil war. Please stop pretending that you must be absolutely right. This is total western-centrism. And don't tell either that they don't know/are brainwashed/are stupid. Thay aren't.
See this for one example among many.

Re:1984

[Billosaur]

Interesting to think of whether being allowed to Google Tiannenmen Square would influence them in one direction or the other.

I would suspect that would never happen as a) most of the rural poor don't own computers and b) most have probably never heard of the masscre. The Chinese government was censoring things long before the Internet became popular.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

That is terrible. But more importantly, do they know about the millions of deaths in the Cultural Revolution?

Re:1984

[Malakusen]

Chinese aren't Americans. For most of the "peasantry", it would never even occur to them, because a lot of them see little difference between the CCCP and the old emperors. No matter who is in charge, plants still need to be grown and harvested, and it's never been a good idea over there to speak criticsm too loudly. Also, the Party has done a reasonably good job of providing stories to focus nationalistic attentions on.

You mention 1984, remember the proles in the story? Winston was an exception to the norm for his society, and the only place dissension was even minutely likely to arrive was the Outer Party. The proles, who could make or break any government, tend not to because they are sheep. That's the primary reason that, in China, the Party monitors universities so closely. A university is where the people smart enough to manage to lead a revolution are likely to wind up, and as a result they would have to be watched very closely.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see China turn into a free country, but I don't see it happening. I know a lot of people whose job is studying China for U.S. military intelligence purposes, and they don't see it happening anytime soon either.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who travels to China frequently, I doubt most would care. They are more interested in buying designer clothes and nice cars and fugly McMansions in the new complexes on the outskirts of town so they can just be like a Chinese Pop star or movie star. Most would fight for a pair of 7 jeans over the right to free speech.

Re:1984

[Maxo-Texas]

The people outside the party will protest when they have more power than those in the party and not before. Power follows the money so the next generation of rich merchant brats in China will probably either join the party or push for recognition of their power. The current older generation probably remembers the cultural revolution and blood to do more than just thank the party for giving them the freedom to make some money and have some fun without being re-educated.

It's a tough balance but so far China is pulling it off.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Although I'm not suprised by this at all, it sounds pretty much 1984 to me. I wonder how long China can continue to do this before a vast majority of its people stand up and start protesting. Also, I'm wondering how many Chinese are aware of these Stasi practices...

If you made those comments in China, there'd be a few more organs available for transplant on the market...

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you talking about Television? This issue is about internet. There is no censorship of the internet in the US. Hopefully there never will be. As of now there are no government operatives trolling message boards trying to extinguish public dissent.

In America you can go online and look at porn or socialist propoganda with no repercussions. The only real online enforcement I can think of is child pornography stings, and no one is going to argue against that.

I for one....

[IckySplat]

I for one welcome our new usenet purging
Chinese overlords....

Oh wait ...

.

The Party Line

[Billosaur]

Although most of its students know nothing of the university's Internet monitoring efforts, the leaders of Shanghai Normal conducted seminars last week for dozens of other Chinese universities and education officials on how to emulate their success in taming the Web.

University officials turned away a foreign reporter, however, making clear that the university does not wish to publicize its activities more broadly. "Our system is not very mature, and since we've just started operating it, there's not much to say about it," said Li Ximeng, deputy director of the university propaganda department. "Our system is not open for media, and we don't want to have it appear in the news or be publicized."

Because then someone might find out, although I doubt anyone in China would find out since it would no doubt be blocked by censors. The fact is, it's just an extension of their internal spy network, adding one more data source to allow the Chinese goverment to keep tabs on its citizens and purge "unwanted ideas." This is just astounding, especially in a country with such a large population. But I guess when you keep the rural poor in ignorance, you can pretty much run the country any way you please, even though they outnumber you. China was such a fascinating and interesting place two or three thousand years ago, but now it's taken the concept of "insular" to a new extreme.

For her part, Hu beams with pride over her contribution toward building what the government calls a "harmonious society."

Read: dissent will not be tolerated.

Re:The Party Line

[Anonymous Coward]

Sort of reminds me of what the early millionaires, the prohibitionists, and Henry Ford tried back in the early 1900's.

Trying to build a perfect society by simply removing or suppressing anything that isn't "Proper" Ford tried it in his factories, Prohibitionists tried it in bar's and the early millionaires attempted to build perfect societies. Heck, more than a few governments attempted this.

We in the west know how well those things went over. Just give it time and China will figure it out too.

Re:The Party Line

[dissident_rockstar]

Wouldn't that work backwards too? (Read: The Patriot Act)

Re:The Party Line

[Anonymous Coward]

On the bright side self-censorship is better then party sanctions.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[koweja]

The difference is that you're posting that comment with 0% chance of getting imprisioned for it, despite what many teenagers in the US seem to have convinced themselves. You think that would be the case if Slashdot and you were in China and you said the same things about the Chinese government?

Political Corrections from the state

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't figure out why people object so strongly to things like Communism or politcal-correctness when there are glorious examples like this of how wonderful they work everyday.

They're payed to do this

[Anonymous Coward]

As I know, those so-called "internet commentators" also post "positive" information to "lead the direction of speech" -- for example, cheering on using real names online...

They're payed to do this. And the chinese internet users call this "posting of 50 cents".

Economic success is possible under communism?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

What is most interesting, at least in my opinion, is that economic success, which we once thought of as solely the result of a free market, is also attainable by a heavy-handed communist society. China is soon to be the world's economic leader with its billion or so people and growing technological prowess.

So what are they doing right? We can sit back and bask in our freedoms, but as we can see from our current situation, we will languish economically. Is the rate of growth of China's economy sustainable and is there anything we can learn from them in regards to our own economy?

Everything else is a red herring. Anyone that tells you the most important problem with China is its lack of civil rights is either ignoring their economic threat or is purposely leading you away from that topic. One or two hundred people locked up for no reason or a handful of "bad images" are just a blip on the radar compared to the damage they will be able to inflict against us if they ever gain the economic upper hand.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[Anonymous Coward]

The country is rich, the people aren't.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

We can sit back and bask in our freedoms, but as we can see from our current situation, we will languish economically. Is the rate of growth of China's economy sustainable and is there anything we can learn from them in regards to our own economy?

I personally believe that instead of the West exporting democracy to China, we will end up importing their "dynamic, productive new social paradigms", and gradually our free societies will become dictatorships as well. Perhaps democracy was only a temporary blip on the radar of history, and humanity's natural state is under the boot of the tyrant?

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[pedalman]

What are they doing right, you ask? They have lots of free slave labor to manufacture all those cheap products that WalMart gleefully sells to us unwitting saps.

It's easy to be successful when you aren't worried about labor costs.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Interesting analysis, and I'm loath to disagree with the idea that we will become more and more socialist and authoritarian as time wears on.

However, you say that the citizens of China are under the boot of a tyrant, but I have to ask who that tyrant is. The political system in China is for all intents and purposes a democracy, though only the communist party has any power. The citizens of China obey the laws that the government enacted, but without the complicity of the citizens, the government itself couldn't continue existing. The government, for better or worse, is funded and supported by the citizens of China, so are you saying that the citizens are under their own tyrannical boots? The so-called "tyranny of the majority"?

China is a fully functioning bureaucracy. There is no Castro or Chavez or even Mao at the top level dictating every governmental move. They have moved on from dictatorship to bureaucratic communism. As such, it's now governmental agencies making the day-to-day decisions that affect the nation, and ultimately it is the citizens themselves who legitimize the communist government by continually voting them back into power.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[spun]

Perhaps democracy was only a temporary blip on the radar of history, and humanity's natural state is under the boot of the tyrant?
The ancient Greeks thought so. Or at least they thought that humanity would continually rotate in and out of tyranny.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

The political system in China is for all intents and purposes a democracy, though only the communist party has any power.

A single party state is not a democracy. It's a dictatorship, albiet one in which the dictator is no longer a single figurehead, but rather a single organisation, in this case the communist party. Voting in China is only a cynical rubber stamp on a rigged process.

The citizens of China obey the laws that the government enacted, but without the complicity of the citizens, the government itself couldn't continue existing.

A dictatorship does require that people be complancant, in the sense that they do not rebel for fear of reprisal. But, it does not require them to consent to its rule. This is key. The consent of the people of China has never been given for the communist party to rule.

It is not by the will of the people that they govern, only by the fear of the people. That's not a democracy no matter how anyone spins it.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[GrAfFiT]

Mind you, even under the intense pressure that you westernian exercise on them as the final customer of cheap products, they all prefer working in factories than in the fields in the country.
I advise you seeing the 'Getting Rich' segment of the 'China Rises' documentary from the CBC.
It might recall you what rural exodus was in Europe and America some decades ago. It's the same.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[liangzai]

No, economic success is not possible under communism. That is why China turned to capitalism. But that was in 1978. In what cave have you been for the last 27 years?

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[Anonymous Coward]

China is not communist. They are governed by a fascist organization that happens to call itself the communist party.

One path to economic success in a socialist framework is Anarcho-syndicalism, but that requires democracy to function. The only country to come close to that was Yugoslavia. The USSR didn't like them because it went against their central planning dogma, and did extremely well at it.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[mangu]

economic success, which we once thought of as solely the result of a free market, is also attainable by a heavy-handed communist society

Do not confuse a free market with a free society. China is growing economically, yes, but they are getting lots of investment from foreign capital. The Chinese leaders seem to be smarter than other communist leaders, they threw out the marxist economic system, but kept the police state.

China's economy is growing very fast mostly because it has so much to grow. For the majority of China's 1.2 billion inhabitants economic success means only that people who were very close to starvation twenty years ago now have some of the basic essentials. We hear a lot about human rights in China today, but that comes from the urban middle class people, not from the majority. Eventually, those people who now constitute the cheap labor part of the Chinese society, the blue collar workers and farmers, will start protesting too.

Now, if you want to compare what capitalism can do compared to the communist system, there are better measurements than comparing such different countries as China and the USA. Try to compare East and West Germany, or North and South Korea.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[Scarblac]

China these days isn't communistic at all, it's very free market. And they try to keep the country together and the Party in charge by brutally suppressing any unwelcome ideas. The two are perfectly compatible.

What they have on you is that a huge proportion of their population is still poor, so a job paying very low wages is a step up. The US is being outcompeted on price by just about the entire other 95% of the world, but especially by China, since they're also quite competent.

Plus the currencies are skewed, obviously - the yuan should be way higher compared to the dollar. But who wants that? It'd slow China's growth and it'd lower Americans' buying power. Nobody wants that... So the bubble keeps growing.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[RexRhino]

Not really... China has a middle class that is going to be bigger than the U.S. middle class in less than 5 years. And China, unlike the U.S., is seeing an increase in the standard of living that rivals any period in U.S. history.

People like to talk about Chinese slave labor, and it is true that they do use prison labor (by the way, so does the U.S.), but that is not, in any way shape or form represent a significant amount of their labor force.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[RexRhino]

China is not Communist, by any stretch of the imagination. Have you ever been to China? China is more free-market than most so-called "free-market" countries, such as the United States. And there censorship is comparible to North America or Western Europe.

If we have anything to learn from China, it is that free markets (or free-er markets, at least) work.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[Spaceman40]

It's a dictatorship, albiet one in which the dictator is no longer a single figurehead, but rather a single organisation.... Voting in China is only a cynical rubber stamp on a rigged process.

Some would say the same about the US.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[Zemran]

Is it so difficult when you sit in a country that can throw someone in prison for crossing the road in the wrong place or shoot someone for driving to fast past a police road block to imagine that other countries do not see the US as 'basking in freedom'. The US is now the home of the gulag (guantanamo etc.) and no longer seen by the world as the pilar of freedom and a place to aspire to. The US is not the place where free enterprise can flourish as it is hamstrung by IP law and the sort of red tape that once hamstrung countries like China.

The world has changed and despite these articles that give you the idea that China is a bad place they are changing fast. They have a free market that is huge and it is a place where free enterprise can flourish. All the while it has been becoming what the US used to represent the US has been becoming what China used to represent. It is the US that now kills people to impose their political ideals on them (Iraq, Afghanistan and soon Iran). It is the US that lies to its people about why it does those things (we knew that Iraq had no WMD and we know that Iran is not currently building a bomb). The world has changed and we are losing out to that change. In 10 years it will be Times Square where the tanks are crushing the protestors.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[phiwum]

What is most interesting, at least in my opinion, is that economic success, which we once thought of as solely the result of a free market, is also attainable by a heavy-handed communist society. China is soon to be the world's economic leader with its billion or so people and growing technological prowess.

What makes you think China is communist? Sure, they talk about socialism, but capitalism is widespread. There are "special economic regions" like Shenzhen and Shanghai with their own stock exchanges. Even outside of these areas, privately owned stores, restaurants and internet cafes are everywhere.

Economic development in China is primarily due to the increased influence of capitalism. It is not a success story for Marxist theory.

Note: I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'm not arguing whether Marxism is correct or not. But in this case, it seems pretty clear that China's success is not confirmation of Marx's theory (or Mao's interpretations).

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[potat0man]

So what are they doing right?

Accepting Visa

There's one country with lots of money to spend and another with lots of people willing to work for little money and a global shipping infrastructure that allows them to trade. They didn't do anything special, they got lucky.

The only way for the U.S. to compete with cheap labor is to make manufacturing even more cost-effective than even the worlds cheapest labor and the only way to do that is robotics.

Re:Economic success is possible under communism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Democracy and tyranny are by no means incompatible. In fact, if the US government continues its current rate of expansion, tyranny is closer than we think.

The US now has the highest rate of incarceration per population in the entire world. There are literally millions of non-violent individuals overflowing US prisons. Does that put a perspective on things?

In Soviet Russia

[BACbKA]

we used to have KGB men monitoring the copier machines. Every document had to be signed off along with the page count, and then there was a guy making sure you don't copy some illegal or personal stuff.

Re:In Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, everyone needs a job doing SOMETHING... might as well be a copier guard. I'd hate to have THAT one on my resume, though.

Re:In Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

copier machines monitor KGB men!

Funny you say that. There have been a number of spy cases where the copier is modified to record what it is copying.

Re:In Soviet Russia

[dredre123]

In communist Romania, when we got our first fax machine at the office for foreign trade, only 3 (of about 500) employees had clearance to use it for transmitting faxes. Other high ranking employees used it as a copy machine, but then, same as parent post, each document had to be signed off and there was constant supervision.

Re:In Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

Rught.Most of them were equiped with automatic alarms to deter tresspassing.
Wiki:
In the Soviet Union, the organization in charge of typewriters was the First Department of the KGB.

See,a single typewriter was a threat.

Re:In Soviet Russia

[kyb]

Urmmm, I don't think you've got the hang of the "In Soviet Russia" meme.....

Re:In Soviet Russia

[hazah]

I don't think he tried. But thank you very much for pointing that, non obvious, detail out.

In Mother China....

[mrkitty]

The Internet Sensors you!

In Soviet Russia

[BadAnalogyGuy]

copier machines monitor KGB men!

Actually, sounds like Soviet Russia was a lot like Kinkos.

A little story about India that relates to this

[argoff]

In colonial India they had a tradition where when a man died, they threw his wife into a fire. Upon hearing this the British general said "well, we in Britian have a tradition too, we hang people who thow women in to fires, so you go a head with building your fire and we'll go ahead with building gallows next to your fire and after you carry out your tradition we'll carry out ours."

The point is that countries don't have rights, traditions and cultures don't have rights either, but individuals do. While everyone talks about respect for Chineese culture and Chineese traditions, they often seem to ignore how these same Chineese nationals adjust to the freedom in neighboring HK in a matter of days. It is not Chineese culture that is unable to adjust, it is China's communist government. I is not US expectations that are being judgemental and rash, it is the Chineese government. It is not only OK to help Chineese people find freedom and liberty, it is our duty as indivduals irrespective of US policy.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[dissident_rockstar]

It's not our duty whatsoever. That would a involve declaring war on China. Only a REAL idiot would declare war on China.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[i am kman]

While the story is cute (and appropriate), I'd definitely take issue with "these same Chineese nationals adjust to the freedom in neighboring HK in a matter of days." HK is NOT free. As with much of China, while HK people are free to make money, they certainly can't stand up to the government or question anything the party does. It's absurd and insulting to imply otherwise. That said, I definitely agree it's the chinese government that has the problem and they have been remarkable successful in allowing economic freedom and greatly restricting personal or political freedom.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[mapkinase]

Your opposition of culture and individuals is artificial, especially in relation to tradition, because it is tradition that makes culture from individuals, and individuals become distinct individuals only in the context of the traditions of their culture.

When individuals of Western culture start to impose their cultural view on individuals of other cultures, eliminating the culture, the latter have a problem with it, because it is their culture that defines them as individuals, and attacking foreign customs on the foreign turf is exactly that - attack on individual rights.

Western values based on the primate of individual rights are not universal. Even Kipling understood that. Usually claims of universality of somebody's view suspiciosly increase with the amount of stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. Strange, is not it?

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[GrAfFiT]

Natural law as opposed to positive law ? Good point.
But your example uses an act commonly considered as criminal (murder). It is even more dubious than the "why if the Dutch tried to help the Americans import drugs ?" argument.
Thank you for evoking the HK case. One thing you forgot is that the economic, cultural, education situation is much different there. A full fledged democracy is a stable system there. In China, it is not yet. Nobody in China will tell you that they wouldn't like democracy once the ideal conditions are realized. But most of them think that it is not the case yet and prefer to wait.
Poor democracies always collapse. Even the USSR collapsed because the economic growth lagged behind the democratic modernization.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[malakai]

Neat story, but your account sounds a bit embellished by British pride. See detail here: Sati

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[identity0]

Wha? I agree that individual rights are important, but where does this shit about 'countries have no rights' come from?

Let me guess, an American who wonders why foreigners want their little countries protected from being trampled by the global capitalist Jihad, and thinks the "American Way" is all about individualism and "Fuck t3h n4nny state!!" Well, maybe you should realize that the documents you seem to worship as protecting your "inalianable rights" were written in order to create a new government, separate from the British one. While the government supposedly exists to serve the people, the concept of "America" as a nation (and the state identities, in 1776) undoubtedly exists independently. Violations of American soverignty are considered rather serious, and are not looked upon kindly in the states.

While I applaud people for helping to spread information to people in China, you should not pretend that you are not violating the soverignty of a nation in the process. This could actually become a legal problem if the U.S. government ever decides to go after 'eeevil hackers' that do such things, for then you might get extradicted to China. Which would not be very pleasant.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[p33p3r]

We have an * id 10 T * in the Whitehouse right now who likes to start wars he can't finish.
"That will be for some other president to address" - W

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[dissident_rockstar]

Not to say that many of his actions aren't viewed by myself as "idiotic," but the fact remains that we don't get the security briefs that guy gets on his desk every morning. Ever stopped to think that there's something going on behind the scenes that we don't have the security clearance to know about which might be influencing his actions? I'm sure people flipped out when Lincoln declared martial law but now we look back on it fondly. This is not martial law by any means but what I'm saying is the man deserves a little more respect than that just for rising to the office he's in regardless of who he knows and how much money he has.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[HardCase]

...freedom in neighboring HK...

Well, "freedom" in HK versus "freedom" in the rest of China is certainly a relative thing.

A man sleeping in a cardboard box may be the envy of the man sleeping under a newspaper, but I wouldn't want to be in either situation.

-h-

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[demachina]

"It is not only OK to help Chineese people find freedom and liberty, it is our duty as indivduals irrespective of US policy."

Dude....

The U.S. government is operating secretive prisons in Eastern Europe and not so secretively in Guantanamo where they are holding people without charge or trail, and apparently in many cases engaged in low grade or maybe even high grade torture.

The U.S. government has one of the largest per capita prison populations in the world. I think some place like Rwanda was number 1 in the wake of a genocidal war but the U.S. is like #2 or #3. A big percentage of those people are doing hard time for drug related antisocial behavior.

The U.S. government apparently is increasingly piping massive amounts of digital communication in to the NSA where they are largely able to spy on whatever they feel like since there is very little judicial oversight now since the Bush administration circumvented the FISA court.

There is a small army of FBI and local police monitoring chat rooms and Internet traffic looking for sexual predators or engaging in maybe just people engaging in inappropriately suggestive conversation. It is a nightly hot topic on the news that we have to crack down on MySpace to "SAVE THE CHILDREN". As nearly as I can tell if a 19 year old boy tries to strike up a romantic involvement with a 16 year old girl on the Internet there is a risk he will be arrested in an FBI sting or put on the TV in a sting by some TV news organization looking for some sensational reality TV.

All in all this is basically the same kind of repression, spying, censorship and social standards enforcement as that the Chinese are doing, the only thing that is different is the scope and the degree.

True, the Chinese are more rabid about supressing discussion of their one party state, Democracy or Freedom. In the U.S. they let you rant about it but there is very little you can do to change it. We have a two party state, both parties suck, both are massively corrupt, are nearly indistinguishable from each other now, and there is apparently nothing anyone can do about it since those two parties have effectively prevented any 3rd party from getting in to the game in a serious way. We have an illusion of choice in a two party state but our government really isn't better than a one party state anymore.

We have a lot of freedom in our constitution, and more than the Chinese have, but again the U.S. government is slowly stripping it away in the name of "The War on Terrorism", "The War on Drugs", "The War on Predators". In order to make us safe the U.S. government two is seeking to stamp out socially unacceptable behavior, just like the Chinese, and most Americans seem glad to surrender their freedoms in exchange for an illusion of safety and security.

One of the big knocks against China is they would seize people's property and give it to developer cronies of the party. Well recently the Supreme Court authorized seizing people homes to turn them over to a drug company to build a new office complex. So now the U.S. has the same precedent in place, that often is cited as one of China's most repressive policies, the U.S. just hasn't exercised it much or as heavy handedly yet.

All in all I wouldn't get all holier than thou about how bad the Chinese are and how good the U.S. is. Both the Chinese and the U.S., and while we are at it Signapore, Russia, Israel and host of other countries today are tilting towards Fascism, the only issue worth discussing is the pace, degree and scope of that tilt or if it will end before we end up with an entire planet dominated by Fascism because Fascism is good for business. What China is doing isn't Communism or a new Cultural revolution. It is just Fascism as they seek to impose an orderly social order to enhance their economic prosperity.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[posterlogo]

Your statements smack of racism and arrogance. The "tradition" in India you speak of is a matter lore more than a matter of reality. Of course it happened, but it was not the general way of the land as you imply, waiting to be rescued by reasonable British invaders. Your spelling of Chinese as "Chineese" also smacks of racism, with the elongated "ee" sound commonly used when speaking in a derrogatory manner. The sheer arrogance of thinking its your duty to tell people what to do needs no explanation or interpretation by me. I think you would represent the same people here in the US that would ban abortion, gay rights, freedom of speech (unless it's absolutely patriotic). You would welcome state sponsered religion, take from the poor and give to the rich. Spying on our own citizens is OK as long as it's in the name of "fighting terrorism". You smell like a Republican. I say lets promote freedom and liberty here in our own country before we try and shove it down the throats of every other nation in the name of "human rights".

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[N1AK]

I guess i'm a potential idiot, don't get me wrong I certainly don't want to, but I really don't think the 'democractic' worlds approach of ignoring all their questionable tendencies so we can use them for cheap labour is right.

If I honestly thought that going to war with China would improve the quality of life of its people enough, and that this was not possible by any other means (which I think it is) then I'd be for it. We're only on this earth once, and I'd risk dieing to do something I know was worth that existence, than waste it 'surviving'. To me one of the greatest things about humanity, is how it's capable of giving so much because it's the right thing to do, the biggest shame is that it happens so rarely.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[imthesponge]

"we look back on it fondly"

We do?

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[dissident_rockstar]

This is true. If it became the trend to be actively involved in politics for even just a short period of time this would probably when change would be most likely to happen most. When it comes down to it though I think it would be impossible to not be ignorant in the grand scheme of things. So why call Bush an idiot? I have no idea whom I'm responding to in all these posts, I just kind of think of y'all as the collective /.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[dissident_rockstar]

History does. I'm not touching where this could go with a thirty foot stick, but thanks for letting me clarify before reaming me for that one. I'm not one of history's great linguists :)

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[argoff]

Wha? I agree that individual rights are important, but where does this shit about 'countries have no rights' come from?

What RU talking about. The whole reason why people organize into governments in the first place is to secure rights that they already have.

Let me guess, an American who wonders why foreigners want their little countries protected from being trampled by the global capitalist Jihad, and thinks the "American Way" is all about individualism and "Fuck t3h n4nny state!!" Well, maybe you should realize that the documents you seem to worship as protecting your "inalianable rights" were written in order to create a new government, separate from the British one. While the government supposedly exists to serve the people, the concept of "America" as a nation (and the state identities, in 1776) undoubtedly exists independently. Violations of American soverignty are considered rather serious, and are not looked upon kindly in the states.

Did anyone here say that the US government is goody twoshoes? All things being the same, when push comes to shove, it is much rather be dealing with a government who can be voted out if they go overboard, and who'se laws say things like "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed", "the freedom of speech shall not be adbridged", "certain inaliable rights". Anyone who finds the US governments trashing these laws offensive, should be completely freaking out over the Chinese government. Hey, there is no equivalency relationship!

While I applaud people for helping to spread information to people in China, you should not pretend that you are not violating the soverignty of a nation in the process. This could actually become a legal problem if the U.S. government ever decides to go after 'eeevil hackers' that do such things, for then you might get extradicted to China. Which would not be very pleasant.

That sounds like a very compelling note that when people in China aren't free, then it is a threat to people everywhere who are free.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[Anonymous Coward]

Another example why slashdot needs serious moderation !! Slashdot is a forum for americans to promote their racism and xenophobia. A completely inaccurate racist comment generated by the american's delusional understanding of history, quoted out of context of the original discusiion is insightful.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW so you are suggesting that you take away a person's and societies freedom so that you can impose what you beief is right upon the people and society. Kudo !! You are the red neck white trash that sucks upon the barbaric and inhuman act that imperialism purpoerted.

Re:A little story about India that relates to this

[demachina]

What you did here was called an ad hominem attack. You didn't really debate any of the points I made, you just launched a bunch of vicious and unfounded attacks at me. It is one of the weakest and lowest forms of debate.

You don't really know anything about me so the the leap you made from a couple sentences about the "War on Drugs" to me being a "dope smoker" was really uncalled for.

Try to do better next time and debate the issues instead of just slinging mud, or can't you make reasoned arguments to get your point across.

Ah, who cares?

[Chordonblue]

Couldn't happen here, right? Say, I'm just going to pop down to WalMart and buy a brand new Chinese-made big screen TV and move it into my living room (the one with the Chinese-made carpeting and drapes). After I cook my food using my Chinese-made utensils, I might just sit me down in my nice Chinese-made easy chair and dream about democracy.

The U.S. has more than just an addiction to oil - there's an addiction to cheap products too and before long our dependance will have us bowing to the Chairman too.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[smooth wombat]

You make excellent points and ones that I point out when people talk about how bad the Chineses are to their people yet these same people insist on going to WalMart to buy their stuff. Um folks, where do you think WalMart gets 98% of their stuff from? Duh! The same thing applies when I see someone with a "I'm Union and I vote" bumper sticker parked in WalMarts lot.

I make it a point to never buy products made in China (and a few other countries). It can be difficult but not impossible. The only exception so far is I can't find sunglasses not made in China which don't cost an arm and a few fingers. I don't mind paying a bit extra but not just for a designer name. Especially since the first time I drop them the lenses will scratch just as easily as the chinese made ones.

Another item is a simple pair of black heels (not for me so you can stop your train of thought). Unless one goes to a higher end store where the shoes are made in Italy you can pretty much forget about getting a pair not made in China.

I do my best to not contribute to the chinese economy and their continued repression of human rights. Whenever I take my parents to New York and we happen to walk by Falun Gong members having a silent protest somewhere my mom invariably brings up the subject of how to counter what China is doing to those people and others. I tell her, loud enough for those around me to hear, "Don't buy products made in China. That way you're not financing their actions."

Re:Ah, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it is happening here. The Chinese have flooded Western countries with industrial spies, informants, and worse. They use the hordes of legitimate Chinese immigrants and visitors as a smoke screen. They do more than steal secrets, they also intimidate groups/people they consider subversives who might otherwise get the idea they are out of reach. Paranoid fantasies? Even the incredibly pussified Canadian Government is getting concerned:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNew s/20060414/china_espionage_060414/20060414/

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNew s/20060420/china_espionage_060420/20060420/

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/15 /spies050615.html

Re:Ah, who cares?

[stinerman]

You make excellent points and ones that I point out when people talk about how bad the Chineses are to their people yet these same people insist on going to WalMart to buy their stuff. Um folks, where do you think WalMart gets 98% of their stuff from? Duh! The same thing applies when I see someone with a "I'm Union and I vote" bumper sticker parked in WalMarts lot.

Americans, generally speaking, don't care anything about where/how products are made so long as they are cheap. Joe User doesn't care if his $40 DVD player is made from near-slave labor. He just cares that he can watch his ultra-pr0n when he gets home. He doesn't care that his HD plasma screen helps finance a government that doesn't allow its citizens basic human rights. He wants to see the pimples on Jenna Jameson's ass. If that takes extreme poverty on the part of tens of millions of Chinese, so be it. "I've got mine, so fuck you" is in full swing these days.

I'd keep writing, but I Tivoed American Idol.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[spun]

"I've got mine, so fuck you" is in full swing these days.

It's worse than that, it's "I've got mine, therefore I'm better than you. Greed is good, selfishness is next to Godliness. So fuck you."

Re:Ah, who cares?

[pete6677]

Buying products from China is a far cry from allowing them to censor us. What are they going to do, cut us off and destroy their own economy in the process? I'm not quite sure of the point you are trying to make.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[freedom_india]

I don;t agree with you.

I have been to Guangzhou and saw the incredible increase in wealth of the whole area due to Trade. Except for clashing with the Govt., the chinese are pretty much free to do anything: including buying the 40 dollar DVD player and popping pr0n movies and watching it.

In fact so many people have gotten richer that companies are finding difficult to find labor to do the menial jobs...

Chinese labor is NOT slave labor as you think: Most are rich, highly paid experts working out of their free will. As alternative they have to work in fields as poor guys...

Some prison labor may exist: but its the same as US prison labor.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[bigmattana]

That is quite an accomplishment. I feel like I am doing good if more than 50% of the products I buy aren't made in China. Do you have any suggestions or resources? As far as everyday household items, it seems like there isn't much choice in many places but Wal-Mart and Target.

Once I tried to find an online resource for information on a shoe company that actually has a good reputation and treats its employees fairly. All I could find were websites which listed a few companies they hated, but didn't give anything practical other than, "These companies and these politicians suck." If we vote with our dollar, we don't have to put all our trust politicians.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[Chowderbags]

Some prison labor may exist: but its the same as US prison labor.

The slave labor of political prisoners who are only in jail for dissenting against the Chinese government is not the same as the paid (albeit at a low rate) labor of prisoners who are in jail for murder, rape, theft, etc.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[freedom_india]

Guantanamo? Not all US prisoners are convicted of crimes. Not all in prison/executed are criminals.

I have seen China in person: Their population, needs, etc., demand they have a strong central Govt. For them the Govt. seems to work: It provides people with all the material needs like Homes, Roads (incidentally better than UK), DVDs, Toys, etc.

You guys seem to confuse North Korea with China.

China is more like Singapore.

Singapore is a controlled democracy. The ruling party controls the peoplee and you have no political or press freedom. Why doesn;t US demand a regime change in Singapore?

You armchair travellers should visit Guangzhou once in reality. See how happy they are.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[Zemran]

I live in Thailand which is a good friend of the US and everyone thinks it is a free democracy (unless they live here). Thailand actually means Free Land or Land of the Free.

If I try to go to www.proxy4free.com I get redirected to http://www.mict.go.th/ci/block.html, in fact any effort I make to get a free proxy redirects me there. Makes me want one even more...

It is not just China that is policing their citizens, it is every country. Do not think that you have more than an illusion of freedom in the US, you may have more freedom than some but that difference is being eroded fast.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[DigiShaman]

It's worse than that, it's "I've got mine, therefore I'm better than you. Greed is good, selfishness is next to Godliness. So fuck you."

That's what happens when your society is stripped from religious freedom. You see, in China, the government *is* God. Nothing is higher then it (Government). As such, with most if not all forms of hubris, you end up with a society that is devoid of moral guidence and ripe of selfishness.

To get a more indepth explination, please read Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[smooth wombat]

The only advice I can offer is to avoid box stores like WalMart and Target and go instead for more offbeat ones. I found a set of measuring spoons (not cups) at a Black & Decker outlet store of all places. As far as measuring cups, I was at a Crate & Barrel and while looking through their selection I found an identical set of cups which were made in Korea compared to all the others which were made in China. The designation was stamped into the metal so it wasn't like a sticker had been transferred from something else.

I needed a vegetable peeler. I like the Oxo ones because of their big handles but they're all made in China. Well, almost all. I found one that was made in Korea instead.

I had to buy a new vcr (yes, I still use them) last year and found that only the Panasonic ones were not made in China.

Looking for bedding for your dog or cat? I was in New York last weekend and while waiting for the M4 bus at the stop between 34th & 35th streets at Madison Ave there was a pet store which had bedding made in Montana. Don't know the prices but the appearance of the items seemed nice and fluffy and well made.

It can be done but you have to be willing to make some sacrifices and spend a bit more time. And time is the issue. Unless you need something absolutely right now, put off making the purchase and keep your eyes peeled whenever you go out. See some funky store while walking about? Stop in and see if they have what you're looking for.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[spun]

I'm no fan of Communism. Try to have a discussion with a Communist, you'll find most of them are as moon headed as Libertarians. Marx had some insight into the problems of Capitalism, but his solutions weren't workable in the real world.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

What were these insights, or rather could you point me towards a source, thanks.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[spun]

Oh, just the basics, you know, that capitalism by it's nature will concentrate wealth in fewer and fewer hands until there's a big messy collapse and revolution. We don't know for sure there will be a big collapse, but the system does seem to promote concentration of wealth into fewer hands.

Re:Ah, who cares?

[stinerman]

You armchair travellers should visit Guangzhou once in reality. See how happy they are.

Ignorance is bliss.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[iminplaya]

Only to a degree. In the U.S., a subpeona is issued. The reporter must turn over all info needed for an "investigation". Or the reporter revealed "state secrets"(also a favorite in China), and must turn over their sources or...what is that?...go to prison. And since 9/11, the government gave itself secret powers of arrest. So how do you know how many people are in prison right now? Sadly, to many people are perfectly willing to throw the constitution right out the window because enforcing it now only helps the terrorists. So we haven't reached the level of fascism that other countries suffer from. Why would you let us even head in that direction?

I'll keep pushing my attempt at a solution

[thewils]

If there was mass cooperation from the web community then the so-called banned content could be mirrored, literally, everywhere.

See my journal for more details.

Treason

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I for one, would not like to be Ms Hu Yingying when the revolution comes. Sure, she might have a sob story, needs the cash, sick grandfather, all the usual. Bottom line, she's an "Informer". Same as Stazi agents, same as party spies, same as every type of sleeper agent who sells out their neighbours to dictators for a piece of the pie. Money, power, prestiege. Maybe they've got something over her.

But it doesn't matter. When the revolution comes, the people whos necks have been stamped on one too many times won't be too sympathetic and Ms Hu and her ilk are going to get their heads blown clean off, and I have no sympathy whatsoever . I condemn capital punishment, but when you've sold your fellow human beings up the bloody river as you skip joyfully about the heels of tyrants, I'm not exactly going to weep at your passing.

People like this are essentially traitors. They betray their countrymen by colluding with the illigitimate power currently in control. Treason is a weighty offense, and doing it by pointing and clicking doesn't make it any less grave.

Re:Treason

[argoff]

I for one, would not like to be Ms Hu Yingying when the revolution comes...

In all fairness, she will probably be killed or tortured by the corrupt government she is faithfull to long before she is killed by revolution. Tyrinannical governments have a tendency of doing this. When Stalin took power, the first thing he did was kill all his frends and allies to consolitate his rule. When the Chineese "land reform" led to the disasterous death of millions, the first thing they did was round up and arrest and torture all the teachers who were teaching the goodness of communisim and the goodness of the Chineese leadership. Ironically, the farmers who nearly revolted and forced a return of the private property system were not punished at all, but rewarded.

That is why US people, US companies, and the US government should be very weary about cooperating on any issue that involves taking away freedom from the Chineese people. The goose that has laid the golden egg in China is not the Chineese government, but the Chineese people inspite of the government. When we cooperate with the Chineese authorities, we cut off our nose inspite of our face.

Re:Treason

[Malakusen]

While I agree with you in sentiment, I don't see the revolution as being something on the near horizon for China. I actually would guess that American is closer to a popular revolution than China right now, but I don't base that on any documentable. I'd love to be proven wrong, I'd love for China to become a better example of a free nation than the U.S., but I don't see it happening.

Re:Treason

[geobeck]

The goose that has laid the golden egg in China is not the Chineese government, but the Chineese people inspite of the government. When we cooperate with the Chineese authorities, we cut off our nose inspite of our face.

... ?

So... Okay, if I read this right... We're cutting off the goose's nose despite of our face-off with the government... ours or theirs... because the Chinese people are laying golden eggs?

It's no wonder western governments are falling over themselves to appease the Agatean Empire--I mean, the Jade Empire--if the people have gold coming out of their asses!

Re:Treason

[tetromino]

When the revolution comes, the people whos necks have been stamped on one too many times won't be too sympathetic and Ms Hu and her ilk are going to get their heads blown clean off

Oh, come on. If she is unlucky and gets caught in the first year of the new regime, sure. After that, she could just continue in her line of work: as an informer for the new government's secret police. Being an ideologue is not a job requirement for an informer. A lack of morals is.

Re:Treason

[identity0]

Oh please, she's much more likely to end up being President after the revolution, just like Vladimir Putin, former KGB monitor at Leningrad State University.

The problem is that often these regimes have the top educated or trained people working directly or indirectly for them, such that getting rid of them would entail crippling the country. I seem to recall that in the U.S. after the civil war, you did not round up former slave owners or confederate officers, because doing so would have set the south back quite a bit. Love them or hate them, the white elites ran most of the businesses and governments, so throwing them out completely would have meant starting virtually from scratch.

The same for 'de-Baathication', 'de-Nazification', or any other post-revolutionary/war purges. You get rid of the most hard-core guys and make sure the rest don't get too high up in politics, but it's impossible to actually liquidate them. In fact, I think one of the reasons why communist countries tend to be so badly governed is that they tend to purge non-communist elements after the revolution, so you end up with a bunch of amatuers and political hacks running the show.

In either case, I think a revolution is rather unlikely in China for the forseeable future.

Re:Treason

[Lord Ender]

s/for one,//g

Re:Treason

[shutdown -p now]

Guys, wake up! It's not 30s and not 60s anymore, and there is no Stalin- or Mao-like figure in PRC these days. They're still an authoritarian state, but it's not a bloodthirsty dictatorship of a single fanatic.

Re:Treason

[Anonymous Coward]

the US government should be very weary about cooperating on any issue that involves taking away freedom from the Chineese people.

WARY.

Slashdot grammer makes me weary but your never going to change so it's a mute point.

Get over it

[GmAz]

Get over it people, its China and they will do as they please. Whats what part of being a soverign country is; being able to make their own laws.

Re:Get over it

[Billosaur]

Whats what part of being a soverign country is; being able to make their own laws.

So Nazi Germany could make laws saying Jews were not people and subject to extermination, and that's all right? Being a sovereign nation, they had the right. So the only justification we had for toppling the Nazi regime was their invasion of other sovereign nations; if Hitler had never invaded another country, we should/could have done nothing about it?

I admit, I'd have a hard time if another country tried to make policy here in the US, but wait, don't they? OPEC raises prices and suddenly our government has to drill in the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge. The Taliban government of Afghanistan decides to house Osama Bin Laden and the result is the destruction of the World Trade Center and the start of the war on terror. The Soviet Union launches Sputnik and the US lands men on the Moon. Perhaps these aren't the intentional acts of one nation trying to run another, but their consequences are the same -- one nations alters its behavior because of the effect of what another nation does. And that alteration doesn't have to be destructive, that's just usually the most common occurrence.

And so China may indeed do what it likes, but that isn't going to stop those of us on the outside from trying to influence what's going on inside China.

Re:Get over it

[Pantero Blanco]

Ever heard of the Second World War? Sovereign countries who make incredibly oppressive laws generally don't stay happy with being "sovereign countries" for long. It's not like there's any question about whether China wants to conquer, because China has already shown that it doesn't care about the sovereignty of other nations with its conquest of Tibet and refusal to recognize Taiwan's independence.

Even if that wasn't the case, I don't really care about a government's "rights" next to those of actual people. If a government is no longer beneficial to those that it rules and isn't even trying to be, it deserves to die.

There are only two ways this can end. Either the people of China rebel and overthrow their government, or China decides that it's no longer content ruling itself and occasionally oppressing its neighbors and engages in a (cold or not) war with the West.

Re:Get over it

[stinerman]

China isn't a legitimate government as it does not govern with the consent of the people. Only legimate governments are soverign.

Re:Get over it

[GmAz]

So, what is a legitimate government? The US's government? How about England? Russia? Which one? I feel that americans were given an inch and they took a mile. And after that mile, they took another one. Not being happy with that, they took another and then another. Now, every person in the country can bad mouth our governement and call it freedom of speech. Guess what, other countries consider our country a mockery. One where the government has no control.

That is why everyone wants to come here. Take for instant one of the most recent issues. American immigration laws. Immigrants from all around the country get out and start protesting that everyone here illegally should be given citizenship. A large number in that crowd were illegal immigrants. If I was a law enforcement official, I would have gated everyone in and as they left, checked everyone of their green cards. If they weren't here legally, arrest them and deport them. America has nothing agaist immigration, its the illegal part. But all the politians don't want to say anything about it because its election time soon.

On the other hand, a country like Holland put down explicit rules for entering their country. Immigrants have to proficiently speak the language, take certain tests to get in as well as a bunch of other things. Fur the US, a woman can sneak past the border, come here for vacation and get pregnant and guess what, she's automatically a citizen. Its ridiculous.

The Government makes laws and no one listens. China can do whatever they hell they want to. Censorship is not illegal and if you say it is, then why are certain words censored on TV or no nudity allowed on TV? Its ok in other countries, why not here?

Re:Get over it

[orkysoft]

So Nazi Germany could make laws saying Jews were not people and subject to extermination, and that's all right? Being a sovereign nation, they had the right. So the only justification we had for toppling the Nazi regime was their invasion of other sovereign nations; if Hitler had never invaded another country, we should/could have done nothing about it?

You do know that the USA only became involved after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, right?

Re:Get over it

[Billosaur]

You do know that the USA only became involved after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, right?

Yes and also that Germany, quite stupidly, declared war on the United States on December 11th, 1941, when there was no reason to. Even if they had not, we were already supporting Great Britain via Lend-Lease and it was only a matter of time before we threw our weight behind the Allied drive to retake Europe from the Nazis.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[spun]

Correct, because we don't need to shoot them. Our people aren't desperate and starving, they won't listen to some marginalized reporter. If we shoot them, it becomes a story. If someone tried to break a story that seriously threatened the status quo here, be sure that reporter would be just as dead as his colleague in China.

The "cat" is out of the bag

[hsmith]

There is no way China can contain the internet forever. They can try all they want but the social change which is under way in China will not end.

She's nothing but a Chinese Capo

[leereyno]

During the Nazi holocaust of european Jews and other "undesirables," there were prisoners in the camps known as "capos." These prisoners were collaborators with the SS and an instrument of the camp regime of humiliation and cruelty. Their role was to break the spirits of the other prisoners. The Capos had warm clothing, enough to eat, and lived in a reserved section of the prison barracks. In many instances Capos who mistreated other prisoners were put on trial after the war.

Hu Yingying is nothing but a Chinese capo. She works to ensure the continued oppression of her own people in the hope of being given special treatment. If freedom ever does come to the middle kingdom, you can rest assured that she and others like her will be just as reviled as the Capos of the holocaust are today. Whether or not she'll be hanged is uncertain, but one can hope.

Lee

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[955301]

You're kidding right?

Mainstream media censors news and entertainment in the US, but starting your own sidebar discussion about how corrupt politicians are or dumb the president is in a cafe won't get you arrested. The problem isn't the media - it's the people that think news is entertainment. If they abandoned shock based entertainnews, rating would falter and that would be that.

Heck, threatening the president only gets you an obligatory visit by his guards, you don't get beaten up and dissappeared. Heck, they probably agree that he's an idiot too - they get to hear his real stupidity.

Here run a test. Take the following quote:

"Every government official in [insert country your standing in here] should be run out of office on the backs of a mob and replaced with someone who isn't allowed to accept any money for their duties."

Have a chinese friend translate it for you and help you pronounce it correctly. Drive/fly to Washington, DC. Stand in front of the Capital building and shout this, repeatedly, until you're sure someone official looking hear you.

Now, fly to China and repeat this action in front of their government building in Chinese. Let us know the results when you get back home....

We can't really criticism them though

[MikeRT]

It's not like our universities are exactly bastions of free speech with all of their speech codes, free speech zones on campus and things like that. America really doesn't have any moral high ground because we tolerate things like "if you laugh at a joke that is perceived as sexist, you're a harasser." Sorry, but that is the same type of discressionary censorship power that this student has. Just swap out the usual litany of left-wing victim group terms for "subversive," "pornographic" and "state secrets" and you find that our universities and China have a lot in common. The only difference is that China is more hardcore... and a lot more honest when you think about it.

And before the yahoos come out complaining, most universities in the US are state agencies, they have no legal right to impose speech codes on non-employees. As private citizens we have every legal right to express ourselves on campus, provided that we do so in accordance with the constitutional standards of the state and federal governments and the law duly passed by the state legislature.

Re:We can't really criticism them though

[Malakusen]

And then there's all the religious right wing victim groups who are always complaining about and trying to censor "pornography" and "indecency", and boycotting TV shows they find objectionable. The FCC's war on pornography, especially on the internet, is an excellent example of censorship which I would consider in direct violation of 1st Amendment rights, but it goes through anyway. And then there's the restrictions on protests at political events, the fricking free speech zones which everyone should be rebelling against. Are we as bad as China about censorship at the governmental-level? No. But saying we are is absurd, whether you're trying to make some crack about the evil leftist colleges or about the evil right-wing churches.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060423-66 58.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_i n_the_United_States

Re:We can't really criticism them though

[Mordaximus]

And before the yahoos come out complaining, most universities in the US are state agencies, they have no legal right to impose speech codes on non-employees. As private citizens we have every legal right to express ourselves on campus, provided that we do so in accordance with the constitutional standards of the state and federal governments and the law duly passed by the state legislature.

Not saying I don't agree with you, but... The first amendment protects private citizens from having laws passed by Congress that would impede free speech. And that's a huge distinction. The restrictions you mention are not passed by congress, nor are they laws. They are rules specific to the university, passed by whatever body governs it. Any student is free to attend a university that respects the student's freedom of expression.

Re:We can't really criticism them though

[swb]

Most thinking people see the rise in campus "speech codes" and other restrictions on speech as being a byproduct of the left's institutional dominance; it's a byproduct of the left's social control goals, and it's not coincidental that Communist China's social control goals also involve censorship.

The university left doesn't believe in indivdual freedom any more than the Chinese do.

everyone who posted a negative comment..

[nihaopaul]

everyone who posted a negative comment.. will now be extradited to china to stand trial, slashdot must now clean its website of these outlandish accusations

hey slashdot, sell me out like yahoo done to those reporters and i'll go post on digg! dont make me dowit!

Can you say hyperbole?

[winkydink]

Comparing the PRC to a Nazi concentration camp?

Re:Can you say hyperbole?

[Zak3056]

Comparing the PRC to a Nazi concentration camp?

You're right, it's not an accurate comparison at all--the Chinese communist party has killed far more people than the Nazis ever did.

Re:Can you say hyperbole?

[Dis*abstraction]

Well Christ almighty, so have we Americans. This isn't a useful pissing contest by any means.

Has it occurred to you that the typical Chinese person might, just might not have a problem with the censorship policies put in place by their government?

I felt the need to say this...

[netcrusher88]

Fuck the government. Democracy is bullshit, our president is incompetent, and we should go communist. Our whole system is wrong.

----

Now, I personally don't believe any of that. Not to troll, but to everyone posting about how the US is just like the PRC on censorship - read the above again. I can say that. All I want. Without fear of retribution from the government. I can talk about socialism, communism, monarchy, even anarchy. I can even encourage them - peacefully, of course. People in China can't even DISCUSS democracy, period.

We censor things here because they threaten monetary income; ignoble, I'll admit, but we don't jail you just for criticizing the government. People of the free world, first recognize what you have, and others have not. That's the first step to freedom for those who don't have it.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

> We censor things here because they threaten monetary income; ignoble, I'll admit,
> but we don't jail you just for criticizing the government.

As long as the US remains a republic, fine. As a plutocracy where voting with money carries more weight than voting with ballots, censoring threats to monetary income is government censorship while speaking ill of politicians is nothing more than laughing at the puppet show.

Remember, Martin Luther King rallied over civil rights with little oppression. The moment he rallied over economic rights he was shot.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[liangzai]

You can discuss democracy in China. Try this one: http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=11 8157&fpage=1&highlight=

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[Malakusen]

I think that simply saying "We aren't as bad as China" isn't enough. We should be striving towards as perfect a government as people can manage, not settling for a government that isn't as bad as the worst examples we can find. When we settle for not being the worst, we will rapidly find that many others are much much better than us. We should be happy for what we have, but we should also recognize what we don't have, and fight like hell to get it.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, Martin Luther King rallied over civil rights with little oppression. The moment he rallied over economic rights he was shot.

BS. MLK talked about economic rights as early as 1958 (he was leveraging the economic power of blacks to further the civil rights agenda--i.e. the Montgomery Bus Boycott). Almost every major action he took involved leveraging civil rights through economics (mostly through boycotts and strikes). He didn't change the US just by giving great speeches.

Oh, and he was jailed many times before he was shot. His followers had dogs, mace, firehoses, etc., used against them. I would say that he faced more than a little oppression until his end.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[Vegeta99]

However, I am sure that in China, I could not walk up to the president and tell him he is a walking ass, incapable of even the most mundane aspects of human life, and that he should do humanity a favor and off himself. Here I could do that and get away with it.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[deconvolution]

Now, I personally don't believe any of that. Not to troll, but to everyone posting about how the US is just like the PRC on censorship - read the above again. I can say that. All I want. Without fear of retribution from the government. I can talk about socialism, communism, monarchy, even anarchy. I can even encourage them - peacefully, of course. People in China can't even DISCUSS democracy, period.

I have to tell you some basic knowledge:

1) people in China DO DISCUSS democracy in everywhere. The full progress of building modern China has been called "New democracism movement & revolution" since 1919.

2) China has NEVER been as a real commuist country, please do remember this. If not, you will never understand the whole things happened in China from 20 century

3) U.S. has been develop democracy for over 250 years and China just started about less than 100 years. In the passed the U.S. even contained a large amount of slaves which China had dropped for thousands years!!!!

We censor things here because they threaten monetary income; ignoble, I'll admit, but we don't jail you just for criticizing the government. People of the free world, first recognize what you have, and others have not. That's the first step to freedom for those who don't have it. This is not the excuse for sensoring. You might not be jailed in the U.S. so why some Afghanistans who even never know the U.S. were bombed?

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[kcbrown]

Now, I personally don't believe any of that. Not to troll, but to everyone posting about how the US is just like the PRC on censorship - read the above again. I can say that. All I want. Without fear of retribution from the government. I can talk about socialism, communism, monarchy, even anarchy. I can even encourage them - peacefully, of course.

For now. Enjoy it while you can, because if we keep going in the direction we're headed, it's quite possible it won't last.

That said, there have been a lot of really stupid totalitarian states throughout history. They tend to be the ones that try to control what you say.

The smart ones are the ones that recognize that what's important isn't what you can say, it's what you can do. Limit that, and it doesn't matter what people can say. Ultimately what makes the difference to a totalitarian state, then, is the government's ability to limit what you can do.

The current Presidential election system in the U.S. is an excellent example. You're given the illusion that you can vote for anyone you want. But in reality, you can only realistically vote for those people who have been chosen for you by those in power -- the ones that get all the air time, and thus the only ones that most people know about, all have the same basic agenda. This is all by design. The bottom line is that while you have the illusion of free choice in that system, you do not have actual free choice. The problem is further exacerbated by automatic voting machines that can be (and have been -- see Florida and Ohio) manipulated to show whatever results those who control them want to show.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[deadweight]

WTF is it with people here anyway? There are HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of left wing blogs that are always going on about Bush being Satan V1.2 or something. How many sites like that exist in China? Can you even imagine the local State U. hiring students to purge the internet of anti-government postings?

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[shutdown -p now]

We censor things here because they threaten monetary income

From what I understand, they give roughly the same reason for censorship there, only introducing more indirection. What they say is that stable government is good for business, therefore, censorship of anti-government propaganda is good for business.

Also, as pointed out already, "democracy" is not a taboo word in China, or, for that matter, in any Communist country, present or past. Keep in mind that they all claim themselves to be democratic. In the USSR, for example, you could see posters with slogans like "Lenin - Labour - May - Democracy" in classrooms.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[coma_bug]

You can discuss democracy in China.

Sure, just like you can discuss the theory of evolution on creationist websites as long as you say that there are gaps in the theory of evolution and that creationism is science, you can discuss democracy in China as long as you say that there are gaps in democracy and that freedom is slavery anyway - otherwise your comments will be deleted.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[Epistax]

If you're a teacher or a professor, you will get fired for saying that. You will get in trouble by context for saying that.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[denoir]

"Fuck the government. Democracy is bullshit, our president is incompetent, and we should go communist. Our whole system is wrong."

"Now, I personally don't believe any of that. Not to troll, but to everyone posting about how the US is just like the PRC on censorship - read the above again. I can say that. All I want. Without fear of retribution from the government. I can talk about socialism, communism, monarchy, even anarchy. I can even encourage them - peacefully, of course."

Ah, but you are triggering the wrong keywords here. Nobody is going to be interested if you are a communist sympathizer - perhaps 40 years ago, but not today. If you want a government agency to watch you more closely, try an islamistic rant with some heavy anti-Western rhetoric. Then you'll get some attention. And had you done it in the days after the 9/11 attacks, it would have not been very surprising had you been taken in for questioning or worse..

It's all about perceived threat. The PRC are just on average more paranoid than the western world.

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[syousef]

I think you meant to say "People of the world first recognise what you have that is slowly but surely being ripped away from you".

Re:I felt the need to say this...

[makomk]

However, I am sure that in China, I could not walk up to the president and tell him he is a walking ass, incapable of even the most mundane aspects of human life, and that he should do humanity a favor and off himself. Here I could do that and get away with it.

I suppose technically you could - if you somehow managed to get past the tight levels of security and the careful selection of people to ensure only true supporters get anywhere near him. More likely, you'd end up barracaded away in a "free speech zone" several miles away where no-one could see you...

Besides, IIRC the last person who managed to wangle her way to a presidential event and tried a stunt like that promptly got taken away by the police and held under anti-terrorism laws.

Why are so many surprised?

[carpeweb]

The big picture here isn't news. It's olds. This is how China's totalitarian government has *always* behaved.

Is the surprise expressed in so many of the comments the result of a very successful PR makeover by the Chinese government, or simply the result of lack of reading?

This is not a criticism of the /. story. Obviously, the story needs to be told often enough so that we don't forget totalitarianism's true face, as so many seem to have done.

Re:Why are so many surprised?

[deconvolution]

The big picture here isn't news. It's olds. This is how China's totalitarian government has *always* behaved.

It is *always* behaved only if you just receive news from western media. For most Chinese people, we can see a significant improvement from our government.

This is not a criticism of the /. story. Obviously, the story needs to be told often enough so that we don't forget totalitarianism's true face, as so many seem to have done.

Do you need to be told often enough about American government are monitoring everyone who trying to contact Al Qaeda via daily read from /. ? I cannot see your point

Re:Why are so many surprised?

[Malakusen]

You realize of course that we can't really trust what you say.

Re:Why are so many surprised?

[deconvolution]

Dont trust me, please. Dont trust any single source. My point might not right. You probably need to compare, think and exam from various sources.

Re:Why are so many surprised?

[carpeweb]

Duh!

Yes, we do need to hear about what our government is doing. That's why we have such a vigorous public debate about it ... ... of course, one side of the debate seems to be arguing that it's dangerous to be talking about it, but we tolerate irony here, too.

I have to complain this

[deconvolution]

As I have been watching this site for years, 80 % stories title with "China" are about sensorship. Yes, there is a bad firewall in my country. But it is really annoying when you only can see this kind of Chinese "technical" news in this website.

Is there any firewall & spies in the U.S.? Yes there it is. I read some news about FBI guys keep monitoring many chatrooms and facting like girls to find child-porn addicts. And when you try to type comments on Al Qaeda's websites you will most likely to be logged and tracked as well.

In addition, when I read this news they stats that they will combined with their passion for politics and free expression, have led them to develop a highly anticipated software program that allows Internet users inside China and other countries I have to ask how is about other users using this technology to find child porn ? Can they be free by using it? WTF just particularly metion China?

I wonder why slashdot always publish extremely high precentage & unbalanced number of news about China's sensorship? This is a technology-oriented newsites, right?

Re:I have to complain this

[liangzai]

No, no, no... you can't be Chinese, because the Chinese can't read Slashdot. In particular YRO. At least not without a firewall. And if they do anyway, they must either be "informants" or government propagandists.

In China, everything what we discuss on Slashdot is censored. You can't say democracy, because then Hu Jintao will send his thugs and fuck you in the ass. Yep, that is how China works. I saw it on Fox News.

Re:I have to complain this

[deconvolution]

I DID read slashdot everyday when I am in China without any problem! Not very sure about particular political news with some external links. But there are big ./ fans in China who read here like mine. I am sure everything what we discuss here is also censored by U.S goveronment as well. And you also will be F***ed talking about what really happened in iraq. Why Fox news never report how U.S soilders treated iraq people who have no weapons? I watched it on Channel 4 in the UK about 2 seconds and it is terminated suddently.

Re:I have to complain this

[Malakusen]

Hi astroturfer, enjoy your Party paycheck. Oh, and thanks for the file you sent me describing your hatred of the Party. It was pretty vicious, and exposed a lot of embarassing stuff. Much appreciated!

Actually, I think both of you are party informants/agents, both liangzai and deconvolution. But Liangzai is very subtle about it, he throws in that Fox News bit at the end to make it clear he's trying to use hyperbole. Jury's a little out on him. But decon? Definitely party agent.

Re:I have to complain this

[jonfr]

Like the propaganda news channel CCTV 9 (Internatonal). Where everything is a-okey even if things are going downhill.

I do get CCTV 9, so don't bother me with nonsense.

China is spying on it's own pepole, by using it's own pepole. Total control over the flow of information is the reason for online censorship is the fact that dictoral goverment need to have the flow of information in there own hands, that goal is easy to reach with the tradional media. But it is alot harder with the internet. When the Chinease goverment looses the censor grip on the internet, it's going to fall when the information awareness reaches critical mass. The Chinease goverments knows this and does everything in there power to stop free flow of information.

Re:I have to complain this

[GuloGulo2]

"I am sure everything what we discuss here is also censored by U.S goveronment as well."

And you would be wrong.

"And you also will be F***ed talking about what really happened in iraq."

Right. Because you can't find ANYONE who denounces the US on a regular basis in the US, especially on Slashdot...

Let me ask you a question.

Why is it a dick measuring contest for you, pitting the US against China? Why is it that the only way you can think of "freedom" is to compare it to another country?

Re:I have to complain this

[Malakusen]

Yeah, anybody who thinks the U.S. government censors political content should just go to http://www.dailykos.com/, if we were anywhere close to being like China with regard to snuffing political dissent, that site wouldn't exist and all of us who post there would be jailed.

Re:I have to complain this

[carpeweb]

Well, I'll show my true colors here by saying that many of us don't point to Fox News as the exemplar of intrepid journalism!

Re:I have to complain this

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay lump me in with the paranoid tin foil hat crowd here, but how do we know the same thing isn't happening in the good ole USA?

I'm to the point in my experience with the web that there are very definately "paid" trolls out there to defend various interests of the governments/military/industrial complex.

There is one health discussion board that I post on, I swear it has seen 3 different iterations of the same name but different person who is employed by big pharma to represent *their* pov for I swear the last ten years now.

Most trolls give up after awhile and blow away, but this one has been so persistant and consistent in his [sometimes outlandish] defense of big pharma
that imho he must be on the payroll.

Join a discussion board about any of the contemporary web/conspiracy theories and wait and see how long before someone will come out and venhemently attack someone with a different pov.

Granted it might be a crazy ass pov, but since when is it a crime to even consider a different alternative. The anger seems to be above and beyond a normal troll.

Question everything coz everything you know is a lie.

Regards - Anon

Re:I have to complain this

[deconvolution]

I am not party agent, just a normal Chinese person. But I dont care if you attack me like "party agent", which is pretty pointless for discussion. Such personal attack just implies that you cannot aginst my point by normal approach, loser.

Re:I have to complain this

[deconvolution]

Why is it a dick measuring contest for you, pitting the US against China?

Hey, what's score of reading course you get in the secondary school? I say 80% news here about china is just about sensorship and none of other countries recevie such manner even iraq. As the biggest IT manufacturer base in the world, is this kind of news we only to know about China?

Re:I have to complain this

[Anonymous Coward]

Here ya go:
 
  I DID read slashdot everyday when I am in China without any problem!

I have no way of knowing the validity of this, since it is exactly the sort of thing a Party agent would say.

Not very sure about particular political news with some external links. But there are big ./ fans in China who read here like mine.

Again, don't know, but you should be able to play around on all the particular political news sites you want. Otherwise you are facing the same censhorship you claim not to be facing.

I am sure everything what we discuss here is also censored by U.S goveronment as well.

I have yet to see any of the numerous critical unfriendly of the administration things that I've posted be censored. I am no fan of the Moron in Chief, or the criminals in his cabinet, and I consider them people who wish they had the skill to be actual facists. Somehow I've never been censored.
 
 
And you also will be F***ed talking about what really happened in iraq.
 
  Go to http://www.dailykos.com/, and look up Iraq war diaries and the daily grief photo. Nobody who posts to Daily Kos has gone to jail. All the scandals and dirty little facts about the administration get posted there, and yet nobody has yet been fucked for it. However, you have to censor yourself from saying fuck.
 
  Why Fox news never report how U.S soilders treated iraq people who have no weapons?
 
Because Fox News isn't even remotely unbiased, and is owned by one of the administration's buddies, Mr Murdoch. According to Faux News, or Al-Jazeera West as a buddy of mine calls it, every day is a perfect day for the Bush Administration. The mainstream media as a whole in America is corrupt and decadent, but they aren't forcefully controlled by the government. Their motivations are money. Any regular American citizen, myself included, can speak out against the government as much as they like, and with our internet we can make our voices heard loudly and by many. Whether people pay attention is another matter entirely.
 
  I watched it on Channel 4 in the UK about 2 seconds and it is terminated suddently.

So what you're saying is that the UK censors. They're not even a part of the discussion.
 
There ya go, Party agent, I have addressed your points.
 
  Hey, what's score of reading course you get in the secondary school?
 
I personally was tested at a post-graduate reading level when I was in 5th grade. I am an exceptional reader and writer.
 
  I say 80% news here about china is just about sensorship and none of other countries recevie such manner even iraq. As the biggest IT manufacturer base in the world, is this kind of news we only to know about China?
 
Much like the Bush Administration, if the Chinese government, which you work for, does not like bad press, you should stop doing things which will generate bad press. You should free Tibet, allow religious freedom for all religions in China, and permit anti-government dissent and speech. When China has a free press, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, then we can focus on great things like IT manufacturing. Right now I suspect the reason your country is so good at IT is because it makes it easier to weed out and hunt down dissidents.

Re:I have to complain this

[Anonymous Coward]

Most countries do not have a national firewall. To answer your point, the US does not have one either.

The only way to force something to be removed from the Internet in the US is through a court action, where you have the opportunity to defend yourself.

That's the difference.

Re:I have to complain this

[Etienne Steward]

Hi.

You appear to be blind. The little icon at the top of the page here indicates that this is "Your Rights Online" story and you have wandered into the political discussion section of Slashdot.

(Whoa, looks like the PRC boys haven't figured this one out, but I imagine that they will be fixing that shortly, which means you won't have to be troubled by these stories, anymore.)

The reason we discuss this so much here is that the censoring techniques used in China are an interesting case study of what we, in the Western Democracies need to prevent from being deployed here. (Listen, what you guys do there, in your own country, is very little of my business -- unless you want to change it, and then I might care -- and what we do here is very little of your business. So, this isn't a judgement or a nationalistic thing. We just have different civil traditions. That are incompatible.)

The reason you see so many of these is because is really is interesting to see what lengths governments will go to to control the free exchange of information. We don't have it to that extent here. It's exotic for us (like a lot of other aspects of Chinese society and culture, but that is a different conversation -- one that Ms. Hu would definately not allow).

Anyway, I hope that answered your question.

By the way, since you are there, do you imagine that those censors get to have a lookie lookie (and maybe a copy copy) before they blocky blocky?

Oh, and by the way, I think you are a troll.

Re:I have to complain this

[liangzai]

Irony is new to you?

Re:I have to complain this

[GuloGulo2]

"Hey, what's score of reading course you get in the secondary school?"

Perfect. I scored 100% on every assignment and test. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to decode that incomprehensible mess of a "sentence".

"I say 80% news here about china is just about sensorship and none of other countries recevie such manner even iraq."

That's most likely because people find the level of censorship in China to worthy of discusion. Apparently you disagree. Luckily, we don't care what you think.

"As the biggest IT manufacturer base in the world, is this kind of news we only to know about China?"

No, of course not. We would love to hear more about the other human rights abuses in China, but the Chinese seem to be doing a better job of keeping the lid on them.

Re:I have to complain this

[deconvolution]

That's most likely because people find the level of censorship in China to worthy of discusion. Apparently you disagree. Luckily, we don't care what you think.

Again: I would like to discuss sensorship in China. I even did not support sensorship in everywhere. However, what I am againt is the unbalanced percentage of such kind of news assigned to China in such a technical website. I cannot even image how bad the situation about the fox news.

Also luckily, most Chinese people also never take care what you think. American medias WERE very important to many Chinese people but nowadays many of us just dont believe them anymore. They just yet another tools trying to misguide us. An infamous example is that CNN set a fake web survery counter results in last mins and was captured by someone who had been continuesly monitoring the vote results.

No, of course not. We would love to hear more about the other human rights abuses in China, but the Chinese seem to be doing a better job of keeping the lid on them.

The fact is : "human right" in China is becoming a joke term because your media abused it too much. Human right includes many sub-means, not just how you can vote or speech. China is leading the most significant human rights improvment project in the world: keep over 1.7 billion people, 1/5 in the world population live & happy. None of any other countries in the whole human history has such achievments. If the U.S. had 1.7 billion people, I am sure you will face the most problems we met.

By the way, I would like to hear your explaintions about who give your government rights to put bombs in Iraq & Afghanistan killing people who even never know American?

Re:I have to complain this

[GuloGulo2]

"However, what I am againt is the unbalanced percentage of such kind of news assigned to China in such a technical website."

I think I covered that when I said we don't really care.

"The fact is : "human right" in China is becoming a joke"

You misspelled "have always been".

"By the way, I would like to hear your explaintions about who give your government rights"

This is where my making fun of your ignorance and astroturfing stops and your civics lesson begins. I gave them that ability. The government has no "rights". They have only what power is afforded them by the people.

That fundamental difference is what you fail to comprehend.

Now you explain what rights China has being in Tibet. Better yet don't. Just chew on the fact that it never gets discussed here.

Re:I have to complain this

[deconvolution]

LOL, you are kind of typical old-fashioned guy who need to dist-upgrade your mind to catch the latest development. You are talking everything you are not familiar with. Every topic you mention has been discussioned thousands times in every message board.

In terms of Tibet issue, first you need to know some basically history about it. The following text is from Wikipeida:tibet

In the 13th century, Tibet was incorporated into the Yuan Dynasty. The Yuan emperors granted secular leadership of Tibet to the Sa-skya school of Tibetan Buddhism. There followed an interregnum period in which there were three secular dynasties. In the 16th century, Altan Khan of Tumet Mongolian tribe supported the Dalai Lama's religious lineage to be the dominant religion among Mongols and Tibetans. Up until the early 18th century, China's dynastic central government sent resident commissioner (amban) to Lhasa. Tibetan factions rebelled in 1759 and killed the resident commissioners after the central government decided to reduce the number of soldiers to about 100. Then, a Qing army entered and defeated the rebels and reinstalled the resident commissioner. The number of soldiers in Tibet was kept at about 2000. The defensive duties were partly helped out by a local force which was reorganized by the resident commissioner, and the Tibetan government continued to manage day-to-day affairs as before.

Additionally, some information you might be interested. 1) 14th Dalai Lama (the current one) was a Chinese whose original name was "Qi" 2) Every new Dalai Lama and must to be recognised by China central goveronment 3) Dalai Lama just has half-leadership of tibet, another one is Panchen Lama, who lives in China at the moment. 4) The Chinese emperor is the leader of all Lamas in Tibet religion, the position is higher than Dalai Lama. For easy understand, Tibet in history is pretty simliar to Puerto Rico for the U.S. (not accurate) So, we DO HAVE RIGHTS to stop them continuing use Slavery after 1949 in any means.

some simple refs:

Matthias HermannsMythen und Mysterien. Magie und Religion der Tibeter, Koeln 1956

Mary Craig:Kundun, a biogrphy of the family of the Dalai Lama, London 1997

Melvyn Goldstein, A history of modern Tibet 1913-1951. The Demise of the Lamaist state, Berkely, 1989

John Stevens Lust und Erleuchtung. Sexualitaet im Buddhismus,Bern, 1993

If you want more refs about Tibet history, please let me know...

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[MadTinfoilHatter]

So, I am not sure if China and the U.S. are really all of that different today.

I'd say there's more of a difference than you think.

Actually, I think that both of you have a point here... In China the people have little to no freedom - In the US people are losing their freedoms at an alarming rate. If we want to use the "slipperry slope" analogy, which I think suits this situation quite well, we could say that there is still a huge difference between the US and China "vertically" (i.e. China is already at the bottom of the precipice, while the US is standing close to the edge.) but there's not the much of a difference "horizontally" (a few more steps by the US in the wrong direction, and you'll find yourselves at the bottom a lot faster than you thought possible).

The Chinese should get along great with the Right

[Malakusen]

Censorship, banning and deletion of pornography, anti-free speech, at least when they take over the super-fundy religious people will be happy.

At least, until they realize they can't be religious anymore. Well, maybe the sell-out Christians will, I don't know, cooperate and work with the government to establish state sanctioned churches, and the rogue religious types can go to jail for their dissent. Hey, there's a way to clear out the Muslims and Pagans and all those other unseemly religions!

China and Republicans reminds me of Hillary Clinton and Republicans, they make me wonder why they hate each other so much when they have so much ideologically in common.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am being snarky.

So the real way to rebel...

[Anonymous Coward]

is not to help people to circumvent teh c41n353 firewalls and filter's but to DoS their censors by posting 10's of thousands of clever insulting photoshops of Pary leaders?

OMG, that's going to be one helluva "photoshop this" contest. ;)

Chinese Banking System Meltdown

[rlp]

The Chinese banking system is apparently rife with bad loans - over $1 trillion dollars worth (see link below). In the early '90's the real estate bubble combined with dodgy loans threw Japan into a fifteen year recession. It also caused the LDP government to lose power. A banking meltdown and recession would have profound effects on China (and the rest of the world). It could cause the government to loosen it's grip on the people of China. Or it could cause chaos, as the government becomes increasingly desparate to maintain it's power.

(http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,2086 7,19057043-36375,00.html)

Re:Chinese Banking System Meltdown

[anaesthetica]

It's going to happen sooner or later. The U.S. dollar cannot sustain its current value in the face of the foreign debts it has now assumed. The Plaza Accord was brokered in a similar situation with Japan two decades ago--only now the U.S.-Chinese imbalance is significantly larger than the U.S.-Japanese imbalance. The devaluation of the dollar will have to be between 25% and 40%.

The dramatic rise in the strength of the yuan versus the dollar is going to dramatically shock the Chinese economy. Regardless of their embryonic domestic demand, their economy is still export dependent. Once their exports are more expensive, and demand for Chinese manufacturing concomitantly falls, Chinese growth will fall as well.

It's at this point that all those bad loans will become a huge problem. The U.S. Savings and Loan scandal cost about $150 billion. Chinese bad loans are nearly $1 trillion--almost seven times as large. Their crisis will be much larger than ours, and they will face it with a much weaker economy (both in absolute size and structurally), and with far less sophisticated tools of governance (their ability to centralize and effectively promulgate economic decisions is very very weak).

No one seriously wants China to meltdown (expect for a few paranoid hawks). A Chinese meltdown would cause a world recession without fail. It would also kill chances for a peaceful change as the Chinese government would use the PLA to clamp down. The possibility of more Tiananmen-type massacres would be quite high. It's likely that Western governments would try to step in and help alleviate the Chinese crisis, although structurally there's not a lot they can do to help, after a certain point.

Re:Chinese Banking System Meltdown

[DeltaQH]

PLA= People Liberation Army or should it reallly read POA=People Opresion Army.
OK, that was a bad joke and perhaps not fair.
I do agree, nobody is interested in a China meltdown. It will be bad for world economy and (much worst) quite possibly a disaster with dire consequences for the chinese people.
Given the size of the problem, I doubt external help could be enough. We will try as hard as we can anyway.
I wonder what could happen if the CPC will try use the PLO to crunch again protester like in 1989. At that time there were deep dissensions in the PLA. The PLA disgraced itself in that event. I do not think they will be willing to repeat it.
I always wondered myself what the soldiers in that tank where thinking when that young man stood in front of them. I would give anything to see an interview from them. Does anyone has information about those guys?
Giving that the PLO is the only organization in China, besides the CPC, with some power, political weight and some respect from the population, could the PLO, if the crisis arrives, overthrown the CPC? What political solution could emerge in China afterwards?
It seems dangerous times are coming.... not necessarily interesting.

When the revolution comes...

[geobeck]

...the only difference will be the faces around the big conference table, and the reasons they give for imposing their will on the people.

All that will happen is that the cycle will start over again with someone else as the oppressor, and someone else as the oppressed. That's why it's called a revolution; everything comes around again.

One World Government run by a-holes.

[Fantastic Lad]

Working from assumption that a small group of people are in charge of the actions of the entire human race, then. . .

Setting up China as a totalitarian government while setting up the West as a 'free' society, (cough), and then flooding the news with lots of stories which get the blood pumping about the unfair differences between 'them' and 'us'. . .

Well, can anybody name the next big enemy we're being set up to fear and loath?

Sheesh.

Big Authority is a bunch of A-holes.

-FL

Re:The Party Line...

[davidsyes]

"But I guess when you keep the rural poor in ignorance, you can pretty much run the country any way you please, even though they outnumber you."

Do you know this?:

"China has between 100-160 cities with populations of 1 million or more (America by contrast has **9**, while Eastern and Western Europe combined have 36.)."

[emphasis my own]

Did you know that in the past 20 years:

"Estimates of the number of people who have left for teh cities to find work range from 90 to 300 million, numbers that even near the low end match the entire workforce of th eUnited States. Move up in the range and the number tops the U.S. and European workforces combined.. By 2010, nearly half of all Chinese will live in urban areas, some of them urban metropolises with populations of a million-plus that didn't even exist a few years earlier." ...because the government allows them to leave?

They no longer need houkous (work permit/family history card) to travel into Beijing and other large cities.

I suspect that as these migrating people will eventually overwhelm the monitoring system, or, if the "sanitizing work" is even-handed or not out or whack, then over time China *just* might emerge from the need to censor itself. Imagine what would happen in the US if it were true (I don't disbelieve, either) that an internal organ of the US assassinated Kennedy. Now, someone publishes it and the domestic security organs don't stop it. Can you IMAGINE the hysteria and insurrection that could erupt?

But, in China it doesn't even to be something like that. People need food, shelter, work, inspiration. They have protests and riots almost EVER DAY there. It's embarrassing, and could disrupt or spook business investment. So,, for the time being, they feel the need to control the public flow to information.

===== Now, for a stinger:

For the resource jammers:
Oh,,

so sad... SOMEbody out there doesn't like me. Every time I log on and go past 4 or 6 lines of reply, my browser starts to crawl. Either it's Slashdot trying to deter me, or it's a government organ keystroking so badly that they're slowing down Konqueror, or it's a library/file problem related specifically to Konqueror. But, I suspect it's that I've become "radioactive" on slashdot... I get to incisive, too deep, and too much for the readership. Well, if that isn't a form of member censorship... (if /. is behind it, that is...) or government censorship (if "they are watching me" is true...)

In either case at what point does tampering with my local machine become tantamount an act of war? Bring it on...

Slash image word: "bedbug"

Wake up you self righteous bastards

[i am kman]

Jeez - what's the big deal or surprise? Welcome to the real world. Yes, China is evil. Yes, they hate democracy, freedom, individual rights, and free speech. And they do many, many things far worse than mere internet censorship. If we hate that so much, let's stop doing business with them. To the US and much of Europe, the internet is about breaking down international barriers and creating a borderless world. To China, it's about economics and creating a competative advantage. Some users/developers see the internet as a philosophical tool to cut across political boundaries, promote individual freedom/rights, and end all government censorship. To others, it's just a technology without all this artificial political baggage. In this respect, it's a bit like the open source movement with the initial development philosophy pitted against the big company mentality that's started to overtake the movement. For the internet, national laws and boundaries will define how the internet is used moving forward, not some abstract philosophy and wishful thinking.

They don't have to contain the internet...

[Malakusen]

Just the computers, the electricity, and the internet access.

Chineese?

[Aqua_boy17]

Chineese? WTF is that, like Chinese cheeze or something?

Okay sorry but that just irrated the hell out of me, especially after seeing it 6 times. I'll go back to being Mr. Non-Spell-Checker-Person now.

We do it too

[Anonymous Coward]

"China's Internet police, reportedly including as many as 50,000 state agents, have monitored the Chinese citizenry's online habits. They have blocked Web sites, erased commentary and arrested people for what is deemed anti-Party, or anti-social, speech."

As if this doens't happen in the USA? Here it's just more stealthy. In China they do it out in the open.

"Mandate of Heaven"

[temojen]

According to chinese culture going all the way back to the Shang dynasty, the mere fact that they are in power signifies that they are legitimate. When they lose the Mandate of Heaven, they will be removed from power, and the removal will be a sign that they have lost the Mandate of Heaven. Whoever comes to power will clearly weild the Mandate of Heaven, and the people will rally around the new government.

My Employer ...

[jeepmeister]

... does the same thing to our corporate e-mail. Our human resources department (outside contracted stooges for senior management) regularly orders employee laptops siezed for "forensic investigation" often resulting in employee termination if content considered by management to be offensive or unauthorized is discovered (MP3 files, personal photos, etc.) My employer has a large IT shop, and is located right here in Southern California. One need not travel to China to find draconian behavioral control practices. But ... hey, it pays well enough for me to keep my personal content on my personal laptop, so why am I complaining?

Re:My Employer ...

[Grishnakh]

What company do you work for?

And why are you still working there? Holy sh*t, I'd be outta there ASAP.

Sure we can

[khallow]

If there is injustice in the world, then it is our responsibility to see it ended, whether it be in the US or elsewhere.

Second, most US universities are private. Receiving funding from government doesn't make them state agencies.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[Malakusen]

No, the government just exposes your wife, who is working undercover for the CIA to uncover the secrets of Iran's nuclear program. Whoops. Sorry Valerie.

Re:Abuse of basic human rights

[Anonymous Coward]

Communism died in China a long time ago; it is still a totalitarian state though.

Re:Abuse of basic human rights

[Aqua_boy17]

Assuming your user name is for real and not a joke or a troll, I would start by asking these questions of your current administration.

After years of relative isolation from the West, public unrest, and overwhelming social and economic problems, the old USSR basically fell of its own weight. Some people thought Communism (Socialism more properly) was dead then, but obviously it's not by a long shot. Reagan got the credit for this, but in my mind it was more a matter of timing and economics.

In contrast, there are numerous social and economic factors in China that allow it to not only survive, but prosper as a totalitarian state. If we really want to protest the way things are going in China, why not just boycott all of their products that are by and large produced by what amounts to slave labor? If you seriously think that this will happen, I have some swamp land in Southern Florida that I think might interest you.

China is totalitarianism

[Malakusen]

They're not communists anymore, they're not capitalists yet, but they're definitely totalitarian. And really, that's what China has been for longer then there's been communism.

Re:China is totalitarianism

[Dis*abstraction]

Very funny. I invite you to visit any of the hundreds of cities in China with over 1 million people, tour for a few weeks, and come back and tell me with a straight face that anyone's in control over there. China for the past two decades has been chaos--not only protests everywhere, but also the wonderful hurly-burly of an urban marketplace in many ways freer than anything we have here in the West.

Re:China is totalitarianism

[Malakusen]

Ha! Good point. Still, I imagine the Falun Gong worshippers could be happier with the state of things. The governmental style in China is totalitarian, whether it is effective at that or not is debatable.

What we all learned in elementary school is....

[Ari1413]

...nobody likes a tattletale or a snitch. Given that she can't be particularly popular with other students, I imagine her "accidentally" falling down the stairs at some point in the near future. I'm almost surprised she hasn't already.

Let's play a little game

[GuloGulo2]

I am going to post a phrase. You post the same phrase. We will continue this game until one of us is arrested.

Phrase

"China is a tyrannical dictatorship, and I will begin overthrowing it immediately"

Your turn.

Re:Let's play a little game

[deconvolution]

I wont play the game you ruled! It is simply I dont want to say that. I would not force you to say something like "Bin Larden was my superhero on 911" to just won a "word game". If I say so, it is not a serious discussion but just showing how people are foolish.

You seem to miss my point: sensorship is pretty bad, but not the ONLY news you get from slashdot about China everyday

I used to play such game when I was 11 years old, by the way.

Re:Let's play a little game

[Anonymous Coward]

Bin Larden was my superhero on 911!

Hm, this comment is still here.
No police at my door; nothing filtered.

Your turn!

Re:Let's play a little game

[GuloGulo2]

Fine. I love al Qaeda, and bin Laden was my superhero on 911.

I can do it. You WON'T. And it's not because you don't want to, it's because you're afraid of the consequences.

And I win.

"I used to play such game when I was 11 years old, by the way."

Well if you played yesterday, why not now?

Re:Let's play a little game

[deconvolution]

If I say so, it is not a serious discussion but just showing how people are foolish.

peiod

You know they would if given a chance

[Hoi Polloi]

"America's Internet police, reportedly including as many as 50,000 state agents, have monitored the American citizenry's online habits. They have blocked Web sites, erased commentary and arrested people for what is deemed unpatriotic, or anti-social, speech. Several hours each week Jane Shmoe, a college student, goes to a little-known on-campus office crammed with computers. There she logs on, unsuspected by other students, to help police her university's Internet forum." From the article: "Under the Familiy Safe Internet initiative, service providers and other companies have been urged to purge their servers of offensive content, ranging from pornography to anything that smacks of overt political criticism or dissent. The Homeland Security authorities say that more than two million supposedly 'unhealthy' images have already been deleted under this campaign by various US Internet service providers, and more than six hundred supposedly 'unhealthy' Internet forums were shut down. These deletions are presented as voluntary acts of corporate civic virtue, but have a coercive aspect to them, because no company would likely risk being singled out as a laggard."

Re:You know they would if given a chance

[Malakusen]

I'm sure they would. Governments tend towards whatever gives them more control. I don't think there is a single politician in office anywhere who isn't there because he likes the power and prestige of the office, and who would turn down anything that gave him more. I suspect that the only reason we don't have this is because each party in our government fights to keep the other from getting an advantage over them.

Re:You know they would if given a chance

[BlindByMyLazerMouse]

Thats the problem. People with power and/or influence think that the internet is unhealthy place. That is probably because they have heard or think that it is or from knowing someone with that king of behavior. In the end it is simply different ideologies. Those who want a clean internet are probably highly religious. The Chinese however probably think the internet is anarchy and are trying to impose a government on it to some level of understanding. They do what they think is right and we do what we think is right. Problem with the disagreeing west is that they think that what china does is wrong rather its just different ideologies (i'm sure most of you know that). If you look at the humanitarian level its a bad thing.

Though internet actually does provide a breeding ground for really creepy and wierd stuff, most of us are normal and at some point realize those wierd people are wierd. When those normal know someone who is strongly affected by the vileness of the dark parts of the internet they try to do something about it. Thus leading to the dimishing of net freedom for the rest of us. In a way it does make sense what china does, would you rather see violent stuff or happy stuff. For those neutral to the net it doesn't matter but its probably has to do with the high number of net cafes in the eastern region.

Think of it this way, have they told us how to run our net? Probably not, but we have told them. Instead we are doing it to ourselves, the censoring of the net, atleast partially, and those of us who've played enough pc games know what will happen after process starts and doesn't stop; little by little the freedom dissapears.

The net is probably the only place we can express freedom so much, like letting out what you couldn't do in real life. What the chinese are doing with the censoring is overboard imo. They are applying physical penalties to violations of virtual world(net) laws in the country.

Stuff ends up like taffy. Or worse.

Hypothetical question for /.

[Zaphod2016]

Which is more dangerous:

Censorship in the Chinese system, under the control of a single government authority

-or-

Censorship in the USA, under the control of millions of competing interests?

I realize that what I am about to say sounds absurd. Please here me out before calling me a moron.

As geniuses, we all understand that everything in the media (including this website) is coming towards us at an angle. Everyone has an agenda to push, or something to sell. We attack everything with that desperate cynicism which makes us famous. However, it takes a lot of *work* to be so vigilant. When flipping between Lou Dobbs and Bill O'Reilly I have to think to myself: "ok, so this guy spins issue X for so-and-so pushing bill Y". I feel as though I should start either (a) ignoring the news or (b) keeping a scorecard.

Sometimes I almost wish I lived under a single form of propaganda. I may sound arrogant, but I have always had a knack for spotting "phoniness" wherever it may lie. At least in China I wouldn't have to remember 100's of agendas that I don't really care about anyway.

This is a hypothetical in regards to censorship/propaganda/media ethics. There is no valid comparisson between China and the USA. There is no valid comparisson between an unpopular President and a tyrannical dictatorship.

The spanish (or chinese, or american) inquisition

[stanwirth]

Our two main weapons are:

1. malicious? Or merely supporting an open source system? Both would appear to be one in the same using these guys' techniques.
2. And don't forget Total INformation Awareness

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[stinerman]

The GP did not put it in a good way, but there is a good deal of evidence that we are heading in that general direction.

If you would have went 10 years in the past and told someone about the PATRIOT Act, illegal domestic surveillance, Valerie Plame, Iraq, and the increasing national debt (under a Republican government no less!), they'd have laughed at you and called you a nut.

Ten years from now, we might have to watch what we say about our dear leaders. It's not that far from where we are today.

AnoNet

[mangledspine]

http://anonetnfo.brinkster.net/ will solve all your problems.

Faulty Argument

[Hasai]

Can anyone think of the proper term for the logical fallacy being presented here? I think it's either Straw Man or Trivial Objections. Gee; my Critical Thinking classes were a long time ago....

I do, however, remember what an apologist is....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologist

corporate civic virtue??

[DM9290]

corporate civic virtue???

At least the facade has been dropped. Can we finally stop calling China "Communist", and call it what it is. Corporatocracy.

So is Sudan

[Hasai]

'Nuff said.

This is a FANTASTIC development.

[Anonymous Coward]

When the Chinese prove that the Internet does not have to be a hotbed of criminals, terrorists, pornographers, and sleaze merchants, perhaps we Americans can learn a few lessons from their experience.

Let's CLEAN UP THE INTERNET!!!!

For a Christian country, America sure seems to love its porn...

Not sure I get your point...

[Anonymous Coward]

There might be a strawman argument in there. Very few Westerners, including the non-slashdotting public, appear to be fans of intellectual property lawyers hired by the likes of the RIAA.

Hypocrisy is bad but I'm not sure that's what's going on here. I think your use of the term "everyone (mainstream society at least)" is a bit broad. I think "corporate lobbyists" might be the more accurate term in this case.

Otherwise a good point.

Soviet Russia joke...sort of

[Palal]

In Soviet Russia there was a joke... An American and a Russian meet... the American says: "You have no freedom of speech here... I can go up to the white house and say that my president is an idiot." The Russian replies: "So what! I can go to the Red Square and also say that your president is an idiot!" Not funny... but true.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

>In the U.S. if content the government dislikes is printed or spoken by a journalist who chooses to do so, they don't end up sentenced to forced labor,

I'm willing to believe you that the US is a shining beacon of freedom for journalists, but the situation is less rosy for editorial cartoonists. For those of you who don't follow links, the story is about spending three years at Guantanamo for writing a satire. The US government didn't see any problem: a quote from the article is "Rob and the Defense Department say the prison system performs satisfactorily in freeing innocents".

Re:Abuse of basic human rights

[ilovegeorgebush]

My username is a joke. Of course I don't love George Bush. I'm from England, and I find Mr Bush (and Mr Blair) an absolute joke, both to politics and democracy. The fact is, many countries have been hounded and oppressed for their totalitarian ideologies - why is China exempt?

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

>Heck, threatening the president only gets you an obligatory visit by his guards

If by "threatening the president" you mean holding a "No War for Oil" sign, and if by "only gets you an obligatory visit by his guards" you mean arrest and prosecution even after 11 congresspeople signed a letter to the prosecutor saying "no plausible argument can be made that [the protestor] was threatening the president", then yes, you're right.

Re:The Party Line...

[Harry Coin]

For the resource jammers:

Yes?

I suspect it's that I've become "radioactive" on slashdot... I get to incisive, too deep, and too much for the readership.

Indeed, in fact the inner syndicate has decided to silence your message before you awaken the sleeping masses. As you say, if someone ever published an alternative theory of the Kennedy sanction, the US would erupt into total chaos!

Well, if that isn't a form of member censorship... (if /. is behind it, that is...) or government censorship (if "they are watching me" is true...)

You're still thinking bush league. Think bigger. Think undersea big.

In either case at what point does tampering with my local machine become tantamount an act of war? Bring it on...

Roger that, we confirm your declaration of war. We have a fix on your latitude, longitude and elevation. Please await our reply.

Slash image word: "bedbug"

We thought you'd like that.

. . . . . . .

PS: Seek help, seriously. Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

Well said.

[mustafap]

Well said. Nice to see a post without the usual hypocracy. I guess you are in minority :o)

_C_ampus _I_nternet _O_verseers

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

So if you do the right things for the right people you can be promoted to CIO?

not the point I got

[GunFodder]

The point I got out of your little anecdote is "might makes right." Back in the day the UK was in a position to dictate terms to India, and could suppress traditional Indian values with their own. That is no longer the case.

The West does nothing more than complain about the woeful state of individual rights in China because they are not in a position to do anything about it. China can make or break most Western economies, and has a significant military as well. If our way of life is truly so wonderful then the Chinese people will eventually get to the point where they have the critical mass to change their nation. The fact that the Chinese economy is growing so much faster that that of the various Western nations isn't much of an incentive for change.

This is a pretty bad analogy

[maynard]

This is a pretty bad analogy. The students did not engage in struggle in order to stifle dissent among their peers. The vast majority were slavish devotees of Mao to begin with. Instead, it was a cynical means for Mao to shift the power balance within the government from the then current leaders Deng Xio Peng and Liu Shaoqi, who had taken the reigns of power from Mao after his failed Great Leap Forward five year plan. The Great Leap Forward led to massive crop failures while farmers spent their energy making worthless pig iron in small homebrew forges instead of farming. Deng Xio Peng and Liu Shaoqui rightly realized the policy blunders of Mao and pushed him out in order to get food production back on track.

But Mao wanted his power back. So, he encouraged students to form a "Red Guard" paramilitary group to rid China of the Four Olds (old customs; old culture; old habits; old ideas). To do this they were given free reign to interrogate those old members of society who were in power -- for those who were in power were, by definition, corrupt because they were not equally sharing their gains. The students then took these old leaders and "struggled" against them through violent means, until the person either admitted his crimes or died while refusing.

Ratting on other students to stifle dissent was not the intent of the Cultural Revolution, though other students who had been children of former landlords, or whose parents had been caught up in the anti-rightist movement during the Great Leap Forward were fair game for "struggle" sessions as well. Mao's principle goal was to unseat Deng Xio Peng and Liu Shaoqui, which he did when students successfully stormed the presidential compound and took both into custody in 1968. Liu Shaoqui died shortly thereafter in prison, while Deng Xio Peng weathered the storm and eventually retook the reigns of power some time after Mao's death. As the Cultural Revolution neared its zenith, street fighting broke out among various factions of Red Guards, who each fought to proclaim their greater loyalty to Mao. In this manner outright civil war broke out between student groups broke out, with automatic weapons and artillery fire destroying entire city blocks and killing numerous civilians, until Mao released the army to re-take control of city streets by force. And then the Cultural Revolution was over, and a bunch of Red Guard students were executed for treason. And, of course, Mao was the Great Leader controlling the reigns of power once again.

It is in this context that one can view the 1989 Tiananmen Square repression, as Deng Xio Peng was leader at the time. If you remember, that was a student led revolt against the political leadership ostensibly in support of democratic reforms. However, Deng Xio Peng was most certainly frightened by the breakdown in law and order of the Cultural Revolution and likely thought he was acting to stop a repeat of the Cultural Revolution. Not that the violent repression at Tiananmen Square was an appropriate response, it's just that most people here in the west viewed it as a violent repression of democratic values, when it is more likely that Deng Xio Peng thought he was preventing yet another student led civil war that he had seen during the late 1960s.

Take us forward another sixteen to seventeen years (nearly another generation) and one can see that the context of cultural and political repression common in China today is far less bloody than prior generations. It is still repressive. It still relies on "self-criticism" in order to enforce the social norms of imposed groupthink. But the current leadership is, perhaps, a bit less violent in its repression of dissent.

Unless you're Falun Gong. Who make an excellent source of fresh organs for transplantation to the buying public. But, hey, that's just a matter of collecting hard currency by killing and selling the body parts of religious kooks. It's not political like Internet Censorship. *cough!*

Re:This is a pretty bad analogy

[tuomas_kaikkonen]

Good article you wrote. One comment I must add: Deng Xiaoping is the correct spelling of the Chinese ruler, and not Deng Xio Ping.

Re:This is a pretty bad analogy

[maynard]

There are multiple english spellings for many of these names. For example Mao is often spelled as Mao Zedong as well as Mao Tse-Tung. Deng Xio Peng is another common spelling along with Deng Xioping. Liu Shaoqi is also commonly spelled Liu Shao-Ch'i.

Welcome to the wonderful world of indeterminate phonetic representations in translation.

China blows -- Freedom information Rules

[tilleyrw]

The level of censorship in China reveals a simple fact -- a government that is afraid of its people. The gov't of China knows that if the iron-clad grip is relaxed, even for a moment, that it would be overthrown and OMYGOD! -- Freedom of thought and Open-communication might happen!!! China is a joke and I'm laughing as Rome burns. Bob

Re:Abuse of basic human rights

[Aqua_boy17]

Sadly, it's more a matter of economic expediency and politics than anything or at least that's the way I see it. Think about it: The great so-called Conservative/Republican Richard Nixon was the one who took the historic trip to China in order to establish official relations with them. Our government subsequently lobbied heavily on behalf of China in order to obtain "Most Favored Nation" trading status for them. We gave them Coca-Cola and McDonalds and they gave us cheap commodities. This is the same China that was supplying guns and ammunition to the Viet Kong who were busy killing our soldiers. And the same China that entered into the arms race and sided with the former USSR and against the US and the UK in nearly every significant issue brought up in the United Nations during the cold war.

Why do we have all of this? Politics and economics. We like buying our nick nacks at Walmart for a quarter of what it cost (in real dollars) 20 years ago. I believe that adjusted for inflation, many many goods are available for much less than even that now. Part of this is due to improvements in manufacturing processes, but in a large part it is also due to cheap (read slave) labor. And we as consumers don't cherish basic human freedoms as much as we do having our cheap commodities. We could start voting with our (Euro or US) dollars, but until this happens don't expect anything to change.

It's easy for us to speak out against the oppresion in (insert third world country name here) when there is no economic or political consequence of doing so. We (both as a people and as a government) aren't going to do so if the cost is too dear. It's the politics of expediency and it's also a sad commentary on our character.

What a waste of time and energy!

[DeltaQH]

If instead to try to control peoples thought and flow of information the resources used for censoring the society were directed to something more useful...
What a waste of resources. What a negative impact does it have in the progress of chinese economy and society.
Chinas economy has developed quite a lot in the last 20 yeasr, but still... What coud have China achieved worlwide today without this wasteful political and ecomonic system.
WHERE could China today be if the CPC did not get to power more than 40 year ago? At the very least a LOT (in the 3 digits millions) of deaths and suffering coud have been averted.
A real pity and all due to a bunch of oligarcs who are more than able to massacre their own people in order to kling to power.
Perhaps when this plutocracy and its cronies get filthy rich enough they will find something more amusing to them than opressing their own countrymen. Going to the Casinos in las Vegas or Montecarlo, mode shopping in Paris or New York?
Until then, my best wishes to the chinese people.

Re:The Party Line...

[flosofl]

so sad... SOMEbody out there doesn't like me. Every time I log on and go past 4 or 6 lines of reply, my browser starts to crawl. Either it's Slashdot trying to deter me, or it's a government organ keystroking so badly that they're slowing down Konqueror, or it's a library/file problem related specifically to Konqueror. But, I suspect it's that I've become "radioactive" on slashdot... I get to incisive, too deep, and too much for the readership. Well, if that isn't a form of member censorship... (if /. is behind it, that is...) or government censorship (if "they are watching me" is true...)

HA! Thanks for the laugh!

(incidentally, aluminum foil hats won't block the signal. That's probably your problem)

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[955301]

one recurring protestor who has a history of spray painting protests on government property got fined $500? Wow, they dissappeared him alright.

Communism unhealthy

[Anonymous Coward]

Communism unhealthy.

Thinking as a Chinese

[Roger321]

You won't see much of your rights unless it is being practiced often, by yourself before or by your neighbours every now and then. If you havn't used or seen that particular right being used, you get used to not having this right. Human is very capable of adjusting itself to its environment and enjoy the maximum of its happiness. That is why despite how many reports we read here, China is still a prospering nation. Their overall richness is much lower, but I suspect their overall happiness is too low compared to here.

Now talking about Chinese government, certainly, they have their dark own interest, but they do share a common interest with their people, their economy, and the overall power of China. The prosper China goes, the better life Chinese lives. No other nations in the world shares this common interest with Chinese.

Most people here, no matter how they thinks and how they speaks, cares more about gasoline price than the wages of average Chinese. But don't feel guilty for that thought, it is your rights to think for your own interest, especially in this crowd place. If the human rights in China is really at a breaking point, they will evolve by themselves, unless you think they are just average more stupid. Or, less informed. But what makes you think we know better about the rights of Chinese than the Chinese who lives there?

Re:Thinking as a Chinese

[Bryansix]

I'm really tired of hearing this argument. The whole reason we do not hear Chinese complaining about thier situation en mass is because if they do they will feel the wrath of thier government(READ: Tiananmen Square). BTW, When the Chinese President (cough, bullshit) visited the Whitehouse, there were plenty of protestors seeking relegious freedom and freedom of speech. They even interupted the welcoming ceremony.

Re:Thinking as a Chinese

[Roger321]

What I said is, if they reached that point, they should be well capable of over throw their government on their own, give or take a few years. Reading a report of their average wages here, and I wouldn't think they place their pleasure of free speach as their #1 interest.

I will be happy to see how China goes on themselves. But I don't see a reason to get over-reacted here while not sharing the slightest interest with Chinese en mass.

Re:The Chinese should get along great with the Rig

[Bryansix]

Thanks for the Straw-Man arguments. Now I will disregard them. No Republican I have ever met is anti-free speech.

This is *not* about censorship

[mrvan]

This is about crime.

We define crime as killing and robbing people and stealing their IP. Depending on your country it might also include offending people, discriminating, offending friendly heads of state, denying the holocaust (but making fun of Mohammed is okay!), and breaking encryption. If we use a website or forum to commit, promote, or plan these crimes, the web site / postings will be 'sanitized'; often voluntarily by the hosting party but it feels coercive nonetheless.

In china political opposition and "anti-socialist" ideas are crime. Websites etc. etc. are treated the same way we treat 'criminal' web sites. It's just the definition of crime.

We had all been hoping that the Internet would automatically overthrow the Chinese government, and is turns out not to be quite that easy. But we should be pissed off not at that they remove or block 'criminal' websites, but that political opposition is criminal in the first place.

(first post! :-))

not so simple

[straycheck]

I'm not an expert, but I did major in East Asian Languages and Civilizations, and I have many Chinese friends. What many here in the US don't understand is that the Chinese Communist Party has legitimized itself by becoming the bastion of nationalism, and in general Chinese are highly nationalistic. They see the current China (with its flaws) as a step toward a future China that will have overcome the past few centuries of foreign humiliation. Many of them see Western concern about human rights to be a mask for a policy that attempts to divide and conquer China again. I'm not talking about hardcore extremists here: this is a moderate belief in China. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should learn something about the people and the history before you apply your principles blindly. It's not so simple. Also, the county is no longer communist by any reasonable definition of the term. They have a one-party authoritarian government that is primarily interested in military strength and economic growth.

Re:not so simple

[int32]

If I'm allowed an analogy, Hitler was elected exactly because of his nationalistic vows for the future Germany, and promises to overcome the WWI foreign humiliation. It's not that this analogy is justified here, but I think that a question about who's behind the proparanda behind "western human rights to be a mask" would be justified. There you go with large nations - chinese, russian, american, you name it - on average, people never allow an outsider's look to their national habits to be taken seriously.

Re:Ah, who cares?-Strange?

[sgt_doom]

Strange? I've never in my life ever purchased anything from either Walmart or Sam's Club - even when I've actually had disposable income!!!

I can't fathom why people do that - just skip the middle man and contribute directly to the "Chinese-missile-aimed-at-US-Cities" fund!

Re:The Chinese should get along great with the Rig

[Malakusen]

That would only be because you've probably never met George Bush in person, who said "There ought to be limits to freedom." during the 2000 elections when he was angry about a website that parodied him. Any Republican who wants to ban pornography or "obscene and immoral things" is anti-free speech. And there's a few Demcorats like that too, I have no doubt.

Freedom of speech itself is a joke in the U.S., just look up U.S. Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 71 and pursuant articles, which is all the parts of the law that make sending pornographic materials through the mail illegal. Section 1461 forbids mailing any obscene, lewd, lascivious, indecent, filthy or vile article, matter, thing, device, or substance; it also forbids mailing any article or thing designed, adapted, or intended for producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral use , however you choose to define that. So you can't legally mail your wife a sex toy if you're on a long business trip or something. You also can't legally mail a naked picture of anything. What's the punishment if they catch and prosecute?

Fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both, for the first such offense, and shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, for each such offense thereafter

Reference: http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title18/parti_cha pter71_.html/

rights and priveledges

[circletimessquare]

i am no friend of ip law, but you are comparing two different things. and not that the usa isn't full of problems, but china's problem here is a lot worse

it is one thing to be thrown in jail for talking about democracy

it is another thing to be bankrupted because you downloaded free copies of evanescence

notice the difference in the infractions?

both are bad, but i'd rather lose my ability to listen to jay-z for free than my ability to live in a country where i can call gw bush a stupid idiot

you realize that dissent like that will get you thrown in jail in china?

post 100 messages about what a loser hu jin tao is in china as a chinese citzen. what happens to you now?

ok, so ip law in the usa sucks bollocks, but not getting my music for free is totally different than my ability to criticize my government

really, there is a difference, a profound one

Re:rights and priveledges

[Zemran]

In China you are free to criticise the government and political satire is far more common in the media than in the US. When I fly in China the in-flight movie is about 75% of the time a political satire criticising the government in often an amusing way. Those that criticise the government will have that criticism recorded but guess what??? that is just what happens in the US.

I wish more people would go there. The people are much happier than I was led to believe before I went and the propaganda is in the US not there. They know that their government lies to them, it is us that are stupid enough to think we are being told the truth.

"little sister": the fruit of the insecure

[circletimessquare]

ah the frail old men of the CCP. you can say anything negative you want about the west, but you would never see this happening in the west without revolution in the streets, to westerner's credit. this is basically the antithesis of what the west stands for. this is evil. the chick they describe in the beginning of the story makes my skin crawl. "little sister" indeed. perfectly orwellian. vomit

chinese government: you fucking evil controlling scum. why do you have to nanny state your own people? do you think chinese people are stupid? why do you think so lowly of your people that you believe you have to coddle them like children? don't you know you are breeding weak minds?

i would think the exemplary chinese citizen can handle all of the vile evil monstrosities of disinformation and propaganda out there in the world, and after weathering it all, come back and still be nationalistic proud citizens, prouder and STRONGER in their steadfast faith in the country. but your actions would only make the same such stout hearted and brave people, your best citizens, hate their own country!

because how can a strong and brave person find honor in your disrespect of them? your censoring actions? a stout hearted individual expects and gives in return respect. if you do not respect your finest citizens, by treating them like a child, you can only expect to reap certain rewards: the disrespct of your finest citizens, and only the weakest and most sheeplike minds of your society being your strongest followers. you are breeding weak chinese citizens

this is what you want? you spit on your best, and coddle your weakest? fucking evil on earth, to disrespect your own citizens like this. dishonor on the mother china, is what the CCP is

in the name of loving the chinese people, i spit on you vile overcontrolling insecure scum that is the invalid, morally bankrupt, illegitimate government of china. and this foreigner's opinion may mean shit, but i know such thoughts is the only kind of thought that can flow from any chinese citizen proud of their country. for pride of country does not reward insecurity. and your actions are dishonorable, immoral, and insecure

sun yat sen foretold: democracy shall come. it is time, weak kneed old technocrats. fold to the will of the people peacefully, or fall under revolution as more of your best citizens realize what frail minded feeble bad leaders you are. when the economy stagnantes, the voice for change will come. then you must choose: will you tiananmen square your own young people again? young proud chinese only acting for the good of china? or will you listen to the voice inside you, and trust your own people for once, you fucking feeble old technocrat. i spit on you, for having so little love for your own

and as for those who would compare what china does to what the west does: are you going to be arrested for calling gw bush the spoiled stupid frat boy that he is? i don't think so. so when you compare a mountain to a molehill, it pays to have an appreciation of the word "scale"

whatever evils the usa does, and the usa does do evil, it does not do this, or anything close to this. really, fucktards. "scale" as in orders of magnitude. learn the concept. then open your fucking ignorant mouth when comparing this vile evil that china does with ANYTHING that happens in the west. it's possible to love democracy and hate gw bush. criticizing china does not mean you love dick cheney. REALLY.

so, get this, amazing concept: it's also possible to criticize others while not also being in a position of perfection. especially if whomever you are criticizing is extremely deficient in some aspects of good governance. the us is also extremely deficient in some aspects of good governance. which are different than what the chinese are deficient in. which i welcome chinese criticism on. see how miraculously that works fucktards?

you don't fix everything at home and ignore the world until you're some ivory tower of perfection. you fix things at home AND venture abroad with your criticism as well. you do both. at the same time. i know: flabbergasting, amazing, earthshattering concepts. or just dumb fucking common sense

Re:"little sister": the fruit of the insecure

[DeltaQH]

Are you chinese? They way you write and the way you state your arguments make me wonder. An admirer of antique China.

you have got to be kidding me

[maynard]

Do you really believe that tripe?

The Politically Correct movement is about speech against speech. Those who hold certain political views against what they consider social ills, such as: Racism, Sexism, Political and/or Wealth Inequality, blah blah blah. A litany of left of center views. Welcome to life in a Democratic Republic where free speech is -- supposedly -- valued.

Contrast this with China under Mao. Where, at the zenith of Mao's power, people were expected to believe that he could utter no incorrect statement. That he would live for ten thousand years. That he was sacred, essentially a religious prophet (who preached against religion -- he was a Communist after all). Anyone who spoke even slightly against Mao, by suggesting that he was just a person, a human who could make mistakes like anyone else, they risked being grabbed by party officials and dragged to the center of town. There they would be charged with "Capitalist Thought" and forced to "Self-Criticize" in front of their townsfolk. They would have to recite a litany of their crimes against Mao and the Party. And if they were lucky they would simply be stripped of their job, their children would be removed from school, and their supply of "Rice Coupons" (food) cut to nothing. Then their local citizenship would papers would be destroyed and they would be sent to live with peasants in a twenty-seven thousand person commune. Where they would likely starve.

If, on the other hand, they did not properly repent, they would have a heavy stone sign with the words "Capitalist Criminal" engraved upon it, hung from their necks with piano wire. They would be forced to sit on their knees in the center of town and wait while for days while the sign, so heavy that the piano wire would cut through their necks to the vertebrae, slowly killed them. If they were lucky they might repent and beg forgiveness. Whereupon an executioner would put a rifle bullet in the back of their head. And then charge the family a fee for the bullet and service. No shit.

I'm sorry, but campus political correctness in the US doesn't even come close to the suffering the Chinese have had to endure.

Re:you have got to be kidding me

[Zemran]

China under Mao can only be compared to McCarthy's America, they are both historic times. Recent history which we have all moved on from. The US is currently imposing its political correctness and censorship on the world by killing thousands of innocent people for today's crusade while you criticise Campus moderators as if they are somehow worse. The Chinese are wrong to restrict free speech but please do not kid yourself that because you get on a soapbox you are somehow better that them.

Re:you have got to be kidding me

[phiwum]

I'm sorry, but campus political correctness in the US doesn't even come close to the suffering the Chinese have had to endure.

And this long litany of suffering has what to do with internet censorship?

I don't know whether your allegations about the breadth of Maoist censorship are correct, but I'll assume so. Regardless, these claims must be about the cultural revolution and not about modern China.

Chinese censorship of the internet is a bad thing. Sometimes, people are even jailed for what they write. That is a terrible fact.

But it is not at all the moral equivalent of the cultural revolution. And since the discussion today isn't about those dark times, I don't see why your post was relevant.

Re:you have got to be kidding me

[maynard]

Would you please be specific about which innocent civilians the US is killing and where? Do you refer to Iraq and Afghanistan? Or do you refer to abortion rights in the US? I'm confused.

As for the current situation in China, it is less severe than under Mao's regime for the majority of citizens. However, China does still execute more people per year than the entire world combined. China still utilizes reeducation through labor, essentially prison labor camps. Slavery. And there have been many recent reports of organ harvesting of prisoners for sale on the international market.

I'm sorry, but I still don't think the human rights situation between the US and China comes close in comparison.

Re:you have got to be kidding me

[maynard]

Fair point. I wrote a reply to a similar comment asking that I refer to current Chinese human rights abuses in comparison to the US. I did so. The upshot is that Chinese executions, use of prison labor camps, and organ harvesting of prisoners for resale doesn't compare with 'political correctness' debates here in the US.

Realize that the issue is not should one condemn China for its censorship policies or focus on its more severe human rights problems, but upthread the issue was: is China and the US similar in their use of censorship and human rights abuse? I answer that the US and China are not. China is far worse.

Further, I would like to see some specific instances of government censorship used for a comparison. I have seen none in this thread.

Re:you have got to be kidding me

[Zemran]

America has just executed 10,000 Iraqi civilians which overshadows the Chinese total. At least in China they get a trial even if you do not like it. In the Cuba there are almost 500 people that were rounded up by the US from various countries and disapeared. Do you really think that Chinese labout camps are somehow worse than Gauntanamo? At least the Chinese are getting rid of theirs and are moving in the opposite direction to the US.

Bikering causes things to be said that take on the wrong light. I love my time in China and love the Chinese people. They are warm and friendly and enjoy their freedom to say what they like when they like. I learnt many things about China which were at odds with what I had been told in advance. i.e. I met many people that had up to seven brothers and sisters etc. It is all propaganda. I also love America and the American people despite the many arguements I get into here and on other sites. I hate both governments and think that they are both as bad as each other. You may say that the American government is somehow better because it mainly kills and abuses non Americans while the Chinese government kills and abuses Chinese but I do not see this as justification. To me it is wrong to kill regardless.

If you read newspapers in other countries you will read stories like those you read at home about China but the stories in other countries are often about the things that America does. Some stories are true and some are not, just as is the case with what you read about China.

Yes they use the organs taken from the people that get executed, why not? As far as they are concerned someone whose life is forfeit has lost all rights so permission is not required. I do not see that as a big issue. I think that we should all donate our organs anyway so I agree with the policy.

Re-education through work? is that so different - http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR5109120 00 or http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR5106520 01

Get out of the glass house before you start to throw stones.

Re:you have got to be kidding me

[phiwum]

Well, the big difference in US and Chinese censorship is: the US rarely puts their own journalists in jail for what they write.

On the other hand, there are more than a few foreigner journalists in Guantanamo Bay. A recent This American Life episode discusses a case where two satirists were held in Guantanamo for three years, largely based on two parodies they published. (Look about three minutes into the file.)

Also, "Reporters Without Borders said six Iraqi journalists were arrested by U.S. troops and held for months without charges, legal representation or visitors." (from here).

I recall a recent comment on an NPR news program: The United States is currently holding a remarkable number of journalists. Fewer than China, but within the top five nations of jailed journalists, perhaps second or third. Of course, the overwhelming majority of the jailed journalists are not American citizens.

I am sorry that I can't find the article at present and so perhaps you will doubt my claim. I wouldn't blame you and I wish I knew where I heard the claim.

Again, are China and the US moral equals when it comes to censorship? No, certainly not. On this, you and I agree. But you asked for examples of US government censorship. Now, jailing journalists for what they write in other countries is not exactly censorship, but it's troubling nonetheless.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[epyT-R]

In the U.S. if content the government dislikes is printed or spoken by a journalist who chooses to do so, they don't end up sentenced to forced labor, or worse, end up with their family billed for the price of the bullet used to execute them.

---

no, instead they're forced to 'name their sources' or be put in prison instead.

A little story about Vietnam that relates to this

[Watson Ladd]

In Cambodia Pol Pot took power and ruled for nine years as the Indochina situation got worse. Finally the North Vietnamese did what the Americans refused to do. They marched in, fought a costly war, and put in a democracy. The North Vietnamese could have used the effort, time, and money to rebuilt their own country. Nobody would have blamed them. But they didn't. While America was praising itself as a bastillon of freedom, a country that was considered a pupet of China did the right thing.

The "moral equivalency" argument is @#$%^

[carpeweb]

I'm dismayed by the number of comments indicating "we're just as bad" as the Chinese.

No. We're not anywhere near just as bad. It's a provocative cocktail-party argument that doesn't bear up under any reasonable reading of history or of current events.

The gist of the "moral equivalency" arguments expressed here is that someone can find some example where the U.S. isn't perfect, and therefore we must somehow be hypocrites to criticize the Chinese. I won't address the trivialities of each specific comment, but clearly government-imposed sanctions against "undesirable speech" in the U.S. don't extend to imprisonment or worse. Even in the academic sphere, the consequence is rarely expulsion (academic capital punishment). Examples of suppression of speech in the U.S. -- by government or by private entities -- are the exception, not the norm, as in China. Moreover, when things like that happen in the U.S., they get criticized in and by the U.S. Again, not so for China.

BTW, I'm not one of those "my country right or wrong" nuts. I think it's absolutely necessary to preserve the freedom to criticize the U.S., and I agree with some (many?) of the criticisms (e.g., slavery, not our finest hour). I'm also certainly not trying to defend the U.S. by arguing that "we're not as bad as the Chinese".

But "we're as bad as the Chinese" simply doesn't pass factual muster when it comes to freedom of speech or most other basic human rights. Thus, rather than defending the U.S. in this particular comparison, I'm saying the comparison is absurd and requires no defense.

Re:Ah, who cares?-NO, it's cancer time..

[sgt_doom]

No, actually much worse. The Chinese mfr.'s believe in recycling everything, which is why their items frequently set off radiation counters,i.e., they recycle all toxic and radioactive waste into everything they manufacture - might be children's toys, might be silverware, etc.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[sgt_doom]

Excellent points - especially as the US government has very quietly released the majority of the "prisoners" they were holding at Guantanimo (you know, where they torture people) - so I suspect they actually weren't guilty, after all???

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[orkysoft]

"Every government official in [insert country your standing in here] should be run out of office on the backs of a mob and replaced with someone who isn't allowed to accept any money for their duties."

Why would you hold a pro-oligopoly protest? The Romans already figured out the hard way that if you don't pay your politicians, you'll get only rich people, who don't need an income, in your government.

Will Be Ended By China-US Nuclear War...

[Anonymous Coward]

when dollar falls, Chinese yuan rises and Chinese economy collapses, new Chinese companies fail, people in the streets riot, killing CP members. Chinese states fall apart and begin fighting. CP declares war on Taiwan to distract but Beijing is nuked 30 minutes later. China nukes U.S. bases in Japan and Phillipines, US responds with massive nuclear attack. China only fires one missile, hitting part of L.A.. China's 25 largest cities are completely destroyed, China reduced to people pounding stones on one another and trading each others babies to eat for food.

US declares its debt to Chinese free, since no Chinese banks are left. West rises to dominate world for 500 years. China becomes a nuclear waste dump.

Re:Hypocracy apparent: google.com vs google.cn

[copdk4]

I totally agree, in my country, India, kissing in public is considered a crime

Re:A little story about Vietnam that relates to th

[dissident_rockstar]

That's amazing, I can't believe I never knew that. I don't want to claim that America is bastillon of freedom but she's given me a lot and in the right circumstances I'm willing to die for her. I mean yea we have crime and poor people like every country, and we also have our fair share of brainwashed masses; but there seems to be a pretty fair amount of social mobility. Most of us have it made in the shade. I can see how foreigners think we're idiots though. In defense of the red, white, and blue I'd say that the mistake they would be making in thinking that would be that most of us are just ignorant, not idiots.

In Amerika

[twitter]

we have Microsoft Ambassadors (M$As).

It's the same idea with a different level of power and authority. M$As are supposed to astroturf on line and in person, just like our little Red Lady. Their little reports can't get you thrown into jail, yet, but they might get you on a few blacklists, smear your reputation, block your Ebay sale and spam you. Recruitment intimidation and rewards are vastly different, but the spirit is the same.

Re:In Amerika

[Anonymous Coward]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=184648&cid=152 46681

You won't get to China that way...

[MickLinux]

Have a chinese friend translate it for you and help you pronounce it correctly. Drive/fly to Washington, DC. Stand in front of the Capital building and shout this, repeatedly, until you're sure someone official looking hear you.

You did mean, "stand in front of the Capital building in the free speech zone 3 miles away and shout this...", didn't you?

Because if you're shouting it while standing in the non-free-speech zone, I don't expect you'd get to China.

Not that the US is as bad as China on that count, at this moment. It isn't. But we are progressive, and our progress seems to be in that direction. It's probably no coincidence, either, that we are so eager for every bauble they can sell us. Probably there is some moral theorem that could come out of that.

Is it true?

[twitter]

"capos." These prisoners were collaborators with the SS and an instrument of the camp regime of humiliation and cruelty. Their role was to break the spirits of the other prisoners. The Capos had warm clothing, enough to eat, and lived in a reserved section of the prison barracks.

Is it true, that as a Microsoft Amb ass adors get cool stuff, like Free software? Yes it is!

As part of the award, Microsoft connects Student Ambassadors with some great resources and benefits to help them be even more successful within their campus technical communities. And some stuff that's just for fun. A sampling... Personalized award plaque Lots of things - bags, shirts, and more - with the program logo on them Tons of software: MSDN Universal Subscription (good for 1-year) PLUS a variety of Microsoft desktop application software titles .NET books from Microsoft Press Exclusive access to the private Student Ambassador Portal and Forums Special access to private Webcasts and training Unique opportunities with Microsoft throughout the year

The above, equating M$ advocacy with fascist collaboration, is a joke. Bill Gates, while working closely and dining with Chairman Hu, is no Hitler. He does not have the ability to commit atrocities any worse than running M$NBC, suing public schools systems, blackmailing ISPs, hardware makers and software firms, working on Carnivore and Paladium. Before he takes your life, he must first finish taking your liberty and any real dictator will quickly acquire Mr. Gate's wealth and power for his own. You still have practical and legal alternatives.

Re:Is it true?

[willyhill]

twitter -

Of all the 200+ posts in this article, yours are the only ones who mention Microsoft at all. Are you that far gone that you can sit there and type this crap with a straight face? What exactly do you gain with these hyperbolic offtopic comparisons and stupid, childish "M$" bashing?

Re:The article is not Factual.

[Anonymous Coward]

Epoch times is not run by Falun Gong. Falun Gong is just an exercises system and has no concept of organization or even membership. All teachings are available for free download on http://www.falundafa.org/

Resolution No 188, Unanimously Passed by the United States Congress States:

"Whereas Falun Gong is a peaceful and nonviolent form of personal belief and practice with millions of adherents in the People's Republic of China and elsewhere;

Whereas the Government of the People's Republic of China has forbidden Falun Gong practitioners to practice their beliefs, and has systematically attempted to eradicate the practice and those who follow it;"

"Whereas Jiang Zemin's regime has created notorious government `610' offices throughout the People's Republic of China with the special task of overseeing the persecution of Falun Gong members through organized brainwashing, torture, and murder;

Whereas propaganda from state-controlled media in the People's Republic of China has inundated the public in an attempt to breed hatred and discrimination; "

"tens of thousands have been tortured while confined in labor camps, prisons, and mental hospitals, and hundreds of thousands have been forced to attend brainwashing classes;

Whereas official measures have been taken to conceal all atrocities, such as the immediate cremation of victims, the blocking of autopsies, and the false labeling of deaths as from suicide or natural causes;

The practice grew very quickly in popularity and in less than 6 years the teachings were translated to over 40 languages, and spread to over 60 countries... According to a 1998 estimate by the Chinese State Sports Administration ( reported in New York Times), there were over 70 million practitioners in Beijing alone.
All teachings, exercise Instruction videos and lecture videos are available for free download. THere is no need to even go to a local park or even meet another practitioner to learn or practice falun gong. One can teach oneself the exercises and practice during free-time. As simple as that. THere is nothing more to Flun Gong practice and there is absolutely no concept of "organization".

THe book Falun Gong says:

"When propagating Dafa and teaching the exercises, no Falun Dafa disciple is allowed to collect a fee or accept any gifts. Anyone who violates this rule is no longer a Falun Dafa disciple."

Master Da Liu, the world-renowned Master who introduced Tai Chi to America and the author of several books on Tai Chi, Qi Gong and the author of several books on Tai Chi made the following statement at the age of 95:

"I had been teaching Taichi and studying various Qigong practices for more than 40 years when I started looking into Falun Dafa. I now tell all my students to practice Falun Dafa."

Chinese Goverment sponsored study into health benefits on Falun Gong done on 1998 : http://www.falunau.org/healthsurvey.htm
On Allegations of Organ Harvesting ( from the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_ Gong )

On 9 March 2006, allegations were made of deaths at the Sujiatun detention compound, an alleged labor camp and part of the China Traditional Medicine Thrombosis Treatment Center located in Shenyang City, Liaoning province. According to at least two witnesses interviewed by The Epoch Times, internal organs of living Falun Gong practitioners have been harvested and sold to the black market, and the bodies have been cremated in the hospital's boiler room. The witnesses make allegations of nobody coming out of the camp alive, as well as six thousand practitioners being held captive at the hospital since 2001, two-thirds of them have died

Here we go again. And again, and again, ...

[jandersen]

Now we're going to have yet another tsunami of overly confident drivel about such words as democracy, freedom etc, that you Americans don't really have much insight into. So, to repeat myself:

Democracy - a system for electing your leaders.

Americans think that democracy is something God given which holds some kind of magical power, and that it means that you have an American style election circus. In the rest of the world we are a bit more openminded; we know that democracy is no more than one ingredient in the cocktail that forms a stable and fair society, and history has shown from time to time that it isn't always necessary; nor does it have to take the form of periodical elections of government.

Democracy doesn't work when the powers of society are not properly seperated and in balance with each other; nor does it work when the population is uneducated and/or ignorant about essential parts of reality. So in America people are ignorant to the extent that they can hardly find Europe on a map of the world and so uneducated that a significant segment of the population are under the thumbs of the medievalistic minsets of religious extremists, and believe in even the most outrageous nonsense, as long as it comes with a Bible quotation. No wonder you think you have democracy, even though all it means is that you get to choose between two of the runners up to 'The Upperclass Twit of the Year Competition'.

Freedom - being allowed to do what you want

Freedom of speech is only essential if you have something to say; you don't want to get in trouble for having dissenting opinions. On the other hand, every society have subjects that are taboo, and if they have laws forbidding them, these laws in general express what most people in that society think of as self-evident; even if outsiders don't understand it.

Take America - for you it is Communism. Oh yes, you have tame pet 'Communist Party', just like China has a tame 'Catholic Church'. They are alllowed to exist because they are considered harmless and people need a village idiot. But if they suddenly began to grow in power and influence, there would be serious trouble, I'm sure. And I am sure that if a law was suggested that would forbid communism and the communist party, it would probably have quite a lot popular support in USA.

To understand all the crap we hear about democracy and freedom of speech in China, we have to understand a bit more than the Superbowl and Big Brother; it is simply not true that the Chinese population are pining for those things. Yes, it is probably a good thing to introduce more of both over time, but democracy and freedom of speech require skills and education, as I noted above. Just look to Russia to see what happens if you simply throw it at a nation that hasn't been used to it and therefore has no experience - you get huge, organized criminal organisations, corruption etc etc.

Even we in the West didn't do it from one day to another - it took many decades, and it involved fundamental changes in the way people think - our culture, if you will. It also involved a lot of internal conflicts and violence as well as a few revolutions. And we still haven't reached the goal, as far as I can see.

So, basically, why don't you just shut up and let them get on with it? China right now has a government who are obviously committed to improving things for the people. They are aware of the huge, looming problems with environment, the problem of the growing divide between rich and poor etc etc. They also have very good reasons to believe that foreign governments like the American wouldn't at all mind if the so called democracy activists, Christian missionaries and what have you could create enough problems to weaken the Chinese nation; so doesn't it make good sense to censor them?

I don't think the Chinese leaders think democracy is bad, or religion for that matter; they just want to keep out enemy influences. America had the Communist persecutions, and there are people who will still argue tha

Re:Here we go again. And again, and again, ...

[srobert]

"Americans think that democracy is something God given which holds some kind of magical power, and that it means that you have an American style election circus."

Do you want to debate with real Americans or merely the strawman effigy that you create with these sorts of statements?

Thank you ever so much for attempting to educate us. We're just a bunch of ignorant cowboys and if it weren't for worldly sophisticates like you, we'd just plunder along wreaking havoc.

Godwin's Law

[mysterious_w]

China win.

Re:Abuse of basic human rights

[ilovegeorgebush]

Thank you, that was both informative and a delight to read. It seems the the west loves the conveniency of situations like this when it gets something for nothing, yet it cries when its not making any money from it and thus plays the human rights cards. Where is the balance?

Yes, but there is a difference...

[Chordonblue]

I can say what I want about our gov't, the president, or the state of things in general without fear of getting thrown into a 'reeducation camp' or some such. There is simply no comparison as far as freedom of speech - however, I believe that our continued business with China may erode those freedoms as we are put under their yoke.

In terms of Tibet

[GuloGulo2]

LOL you are the kind of person who talks and talk, but never hears anything that anyone else ever says.

Hear this.

The reason I brought up Tibet was BECAUSE YOU WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT IRAQ. Iraq is discussed EVERY DAY here on Slashdot.

Tibet is not.

So while you continue to complain about unfair coverage of China, I wanted to bring your attention to an example where the treatment of the US is unfair by your standards.

Is that clear to you, or do you need to find someone smarter to explain it to you?

Also, you leave this stuff out.

"In 1950, the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet, crushing the Tibetan army."

China conquered Tibet. Period.

Now go ahead and shill, shill.

And lastly, we still don't care what you think.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[deconvolution]

LOL you are the kind of person who talks and talk, but never hears anything that anyone else ever says. The reason I brought up Tibet was BECAUSE YOU WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT IRAQ. Iraq is discussed EVERY DAY here on Slashdot.

My discussion style is: if you can poentially correct me in particular topic, or it is worthy to tech you some basic knowledge, I will discuss. Otherwise, I just dropped just because you will lost. I stopped Iraq issues just because you definitely will lose on that topic. you are welcome to try it, though.

So while you continue to complain about unfair coverage of China, I wanted to bring your attention to an example where the treatment of the US is unfair by your standards. Is that clear to you, or do you need to find someone smarter to explain it to you?

You have agreed it is slashdot policy is pretty unfair. I can finish this conversion. (please dont attemp to discuss "standards" issue to me, you would be trapped.)

"In 1950, the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet, crushing the Tibetan army." China conquered Tibet. Period.

Regarding to wikipedia and many historic books written by western researchers, Tibet was part of China with Chinese army earlier than 13-18 centery, before American conquered Indians, period.

I say again, I am not going to discuss you about topic of Tibet anymore due to your obvious lack of knowledge on it. If you dont believe it, again, welcome to try.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[GuloGulo2]

" you are welcome to try it, though."

What's there to try, you bitched about unfair coverage of China, I showed you that it goes both ways, you respond with more barely coherent "english".

The only thing I'll lose is my patience in dealing with astroturfing government shills like you.

"Tibet was part of China"

The Tibetans disagree. Why are the Chinese correct, and the Tibetans not? Sucks not to have an answer for that doesn't it?

"I am not going to discuss you about topic of Tibet anymore"

Of course not. When presented with an irrefutable point, your only choice is to close down debate. It MUST be because of my ignorance, and not because of a completely indefensible position.

Fine, choke on this one. Forced abortion of female babies. Good luck dodging that one.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[deconvolution]

The Tibetans disagree. Why are the Chinese correct, and the Tibetans not? Sucks not to have an answer for that doesn't it?

Please read this (from Dalai Lama interviews with CNN

But his first order of business is the resolution of Tibet's status. He has suggested that Tibet become a truly autonomous, self-governing PART OF CHINA. In that case, he says, he would be content to leave governance to others and serve only as its spiritual leader.

How do you know the most Tibetans disagree to mine? have you been there? how many Tibetans friends do you have? How many books you have read about Tibet? Unfortunately, my home town is quite closed to the boarder of Tibet and I do have many classmates there. I know you are totally wrong on this point. You are more than welcome to try on any topic where I dropped from your response.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[GuloGulo2]

Hey, douche, why did you say this

"I am not going to discuss you about topic of Tibet anymore "

Then write an entire post about it?

I thought that we had moved on to the subject of China forcing women to abort female babies.

But, since you have no way to refute that point, I guess you had to go running back to the Tibet issue.

"How do you know the most Tibetans disagree to mine?"

They say so.

"have you been there?"

Many times

"how many Tibetans friends do you have?"

Several hundred

"How many books you have read about Tibet?"

Last count, over fifty.

I win.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[deconvolution]

By the way, you must read Goldstein and A. Tom Grunfeld 's books & articles about modern Tibet history.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[deconvolution]

I thought that we had moved on to the subject of China forcing women to abort female babies.

I am waiting you to open this issue, there is a famous joke about when dear Mr James Earl Carter talked this issues with Mr Deng Xiaoping in 1980s and asked Mr. Deng to relax domestic immigration policies. Mr Deng say if America can receive 10M people or more to the U.S. and he would be willing to. Mr Carter then shut up his mouth. Now you should...

By the way, if you have second child or more in China, the parents just need to pay extra 200 USD fine in most cases and in practise it is free if you dont have such amount money.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[GuloGulo2]

"I am waiting you to open this issue, there is a famous joke about when dear Mr James Earl Carter talked this issues with Mr Deng Xiaoping in 1980s and asked Mr. Deng to relax domestic immigration policies. Mr Deng say if America can receive 10M people or more to the U.S. and he would be willing to. Mr Carter then shut up his mouth. Now you should..."

Um, what? English please, I've been cool about your shitty writing, but this is incoherent babble.

Aborting female babies.

I win. Again.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[deconvolution]

This is where my making fun of your ignorance and astroturfing stops and your civics lesson begins. I gave them that ability. The government has no "rights". They have only what power is afforded them by the people. Now you explain what rights China has being in Tibet. Better yet don't. Just chew on the fact that it never gets discussed here.

Um, what? ... These shitty sentenses were written by a pefect boy "scored 100% on every assignment and test." Wow you win again!!! GO TO WORLD TRADE CENTRE NOW!!!

Re:In terms of Tibet

[GuloGulo2]

"These shitty sentenses were written by a pefect boy "scored 100% on every assignment and test."

Sentences.

"Wow you win again!!!"

Agreed

"GO TO WORLD TRADE CENTRE NOW!!!"

Go to Tian'anmen Square. And while you're there, criticize the Chinese government.

HAHA! I win.

Again

Re:In terms of Tibet

[deconvolution]

LOL, Have a good day mate. See ya.

Re:In terms of Tibet

[GuloGulo2]

In all honesty, I hope you do too. Realistically, it a bit silly to be arguing the benefits of two very different cultures as though they're equivalent.

My only hope is that you try a little harder to understand the policies of both countries, and I'll try to do the same.

Re:China vs. the U.S. of A.

[makomk]

Here run a test. Take the following quote:

"Every government official in [insert country your standing in here] should be run out of office on the backs of a mob and replaced with someone who isn't allowed to accept any money for their duties."

Have a chinese friend translate it for you and help you pronounce it correctly. Drive/fly to Washington, DC. Stand in front of the Capital building and shout this, repeatedly, until you're sure someone official looking hear you. But don't do this in the UK, or you're likely to be arrested...

Winston Smith

[srobert]

I wonder if any of the agents working to oversee the internet ever fancy themselves to be a "Winston Smith". I also wonder if the text of 1984 is available on the internet in China.

America 'executed' 10K Iraqi citizens?

[maynard]

Can you back that up with reference? Do you mean extrajudicial execution, as in put these people up against a wall and shot them without trial? Or do you refer to civilian casualties during time of war?

RE: Gauntanamo and other US run detention camps. I completely agree. I disagree with this policy vehemently and will vote against any elected official who supports the policy.

As for the organ harvesting, the reports I read is far worse than just using organs from those executed. They are killing in order to harvest organs.

The Chinese government is an interesting mix of technocracy, considering that it is run primarily by officials with engineering degrees. Slashdot members should give due consideration to this fact. A degree in engineering does not necessarily confer ethical policy-making. Perhaps it is best that the technocrats won out over the Maoist ideologues though.

Re:America 'executed' 10K Iraqi citizens?

[Guuge]

Do you mean extrajudicial execution, as in put these people up against a wall and shot them without trial? Or do you refer to civilian casualties during time of war?

Probably neither. Usually, the 10,000 number refers to a count (now outdated) of violent civilian deaths that happened under the occupying regime. So while it's not an official self-conscious killing, it is a natural consequence of the choices of the rulers; hence the "execution" exaggeration. I should also point out that this number generally does NOT include wartime casualties.

Nope

[GuloGulo2]

Excuses. You and I both know the only reason you can't write it is because of the consequences.

Meanwhile, I can say things like "Chairman Mao is my bitch" with impunity. I can even say "President Bush is also my bitch" as much as I want.

You can continue to ACT like it's a game if you want, but you asked for justification of Slashdot stories that continually donounce China.

The FACT that you can't call Chairman Mao a cum-slurping slut is no game. Until you can do so without fear of government reprisal, your pathetic defense of China rings completely hollow.

And I skullfucked Lan Ping.

Re:Nope

[deconvolution]

Congratulations! You have won the game! My boy. You are the most clever one in the world. I fully admire you! You must have a huge brian like Einstein's

Please continue such actions showing not only to me, but to everybody. I know you cannot wait to share your huge success on this game. The next step for you is to go to World Trade Center building site wearing a T-shirt with Bin Lardens' simley face and do praises and bless him LOUDLY (better to get a AK47 gun with you). Come on, you can do it.

Re:Nope

[GuloGulo2]

I told you already, it's no game.

I can say those things, you can't.

So, even though you were being sarcastic (and you suck at it) yes, I win.

Again.

Meanwhile, you have no such freedom. HAHA!

Mao is my bitch.

Re:The Party Line... "Think undersea big."

[davidsyes]

"Think undersea big."

Well, to a small extent, I have. I've been thinking the USS San Francisco didn't hit a sea mount in Guam... It's a 'plausible denial' cover story. She probably rammed something, or, was probing someone's waters and a mine punched her in the snout. But, then... we haven't heard of any inexplicable undersea explosions... (remember those times the US snooped a lot in then-Soviet waters. I wish countries would grow the balls to mine their waters with influence mines (not to kill) but to imperil a sub such that it is exposed in the act. If it DOES sink, tho, then that'll be a matter or poor/ineffective damage control efforts or poor design...)

(Re-coats tin-foil hat with poly-duraloy/cobalt layers...)

On the related news: Chinese chicks dig Internet

[taweili]

More Chinese youngsters finding romance on Internet forums.

1. Little Sister monitor the Net
2. Slashdot boys visit the Net
3. Boys meet the girls
4. ....
5. Profit!!!

Come, my Slashdot brethren. Learn Chinese and let's go meet some little sisters in China!

Re:On the related news: Chinese chicks dig Interne

[taweili]

By the way, just figure out how to turn this into gold with a friend running blog site in China. China on one hand wants to monitor the Internet and on the other hand wants to ensure the college graduates Internet proficiency. So, the business model is to run joint blog service with schools and ask school to mobilize their young communist parties members to monitor the blogs as well as posting blogs. This serves to increase the traffic and register bloggers and VC only look at number. So, the profit is actually possible.

Now, I wonder if this is how China will get to have 100 millions bloggers in 2007