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Novell Delivers Device Driver Breakthrough
An anonymous reader writes "Novell today announced a new Linux device driver process to make it easier for third party device driver writers to integrate their drivers with SUSE Linux." From the article: "The new driver process allows customers to obtain drivers independently of Novell® kernel updates and supplies a straightforward approach third parties can use when developing device drivers for Novell's SUSE® Linux Enterprise products. The new Linux driver process developed by Novell allows hardware and software vendors to provide Linux drivers and driver updates for their products to customers directly and transparently, in a way that is completely integrated with SUSE Linux Enterprise delivery and support."
I hope it's not a case of a tree falling in the forest, and nobody to hear it...
FP?
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
blahblah
The Article is a merketing blurb, anybody knows how it's actualy implemented?
Plan 9 offers everything you would expect from a modern desktop OS. So there is no need for Suse Linux.
so now, when ATI's bugfest drivers crash the computer, Novell is to blame?
#
#\ @ ? Colonize Mars
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Does this mean that I might be able to get wireless working without ndiswrapper in the near future?
... it is generally the result of a badly written 3rd party device driver, and the inability of the OS to protect itself from that driver. Have Novell delivered a major breakthrough here (as the article suggests) or the beginnings of a major headache?
I know there will be replies about how the architechure of Linux protects us from some of the risk, but in reality 3rd parties will circumvent any device driver model in an effort to make their device perform optmally, even at the expense of the wider platform.
http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/FAQ_for _the_Partner_Linux_Driver_Process
Why is having shitty, flaky, unfixable, unsupportable binary-only drivers a breakthrough? Closed vendor drivers suck, they are designed to hide bugs in the hardware/firmware, and are written by people who don't know the first thing about the OS they are writing drivers for.
Geez, is /. so short of news that it accepts corporate press releases? "Driver breakthrough" - you can load a third party driver from a floppy. Well knock me down.
This "breakthrough" requires device vendors to recompile (and possibly port) their driver for every distro, every time that distro updates their kernel ABI. The only thing that has really changed seems to be that Novell will keep track of when the kernel ABI changes and notify driver developers.
Not that I could tell from that fluff piece, but it's obviously some sort of kerneldriver interface layer or wrapper of some kind.
The question is, how much overhead does the abstraction add?
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
This doesn't have anything to do with that recent NV/ATI GPL violation story, does it?
(after reading Novell's intro page and the FAQ) It's not a shim driver: "A driver is linked to a specific kernel version via Kernel Application Binary Interface (kABI) metadata. ... In the event of kernel updates Novell will notify partners about possible changes to the kABI". This is just a new process by which established device manufacturers can work with Novell, not a shim driver to create a stable kernel ABI.
I am a longtime SuSE Linux Professional user, and I always wondered why they change the externally-visible kernel version number for each security update.
This makes binary and externally compiled drivers (including nvidia and vmware drivers that I use) break on every kernel update, and probably unnecessarily, The chances that anything changes to the driver interface because of a security patch are probably very slim, and they could always change the version in case a major change is made.
But now, it is just an annoyance. I need to install their patch, reboot into textmode, re-make the vmware and nvidia drivers, and again reboot to go back to fully functional operation. And I know how to do this. A beginning user is happy to finally have such an install/compile procedure behind him, and not at all happy to see the whole thing break after YOU installed a kernel patch.
(not to mention the fact that it can take him quite some time to find out that the kernel patch is the reason, and how to fix it)
Hoho, Novell distributes (updates of) vendor-specific drivers for SUSE 10. Yeah, that'll cure the hunger in the world - not.
This is only going to work if you're using SuSE. And if you don't compile your own kernel. It only gives vendors an excuse to call their shitty binary-only drivers "Linux support". I'd call this thing a Linux driver setback.
Way to innovate, Novell. Way to join the party half a decade late.
Get over yourselfs Plan 9 and BSD trolls - I'm seeing more of you fall out of the wood work in /. comments and it is getting annoying...Guess what; I have games (HL2, UT2k4, Q4, EVE, etc) and XGL (transset over xcompmgr) with fully compatible nvidia binary drivers and every bit of hardware on my computer supported, nearly, all under gpl compared to your what? Firefox suport? To put it simply there is need for Plan 9 and smaller BSDs to exist and that is so they spur Linux to continue to better itself and they provide good server OSes.
So bugger off and let people use their favourite OS in peace or don't bitch when the next major Plan 9 feature is reported and every one else just sighs and says 'use linux'.
I ate your fish.
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From what I can see (too much marketing crap), it looks like they have an option in YaST to add an ISV's repository.
So, the ISV builds a package for their module and sets the dependencies and YaST allows you to update the module/kernel without breaking the dependencies.
Not much of an accomplishment at all (if that is all there is to it). Which would explain why they resorted to so much marketing crap in their announcement.
Sounds more like a new marketing process.
"I now inform you that you are too far from reality."
...model of consistent binaries is vastly superior. Quick and ragged works for a flying lap, but slow and steady wins the race.
All drivers already exist. Fucking Linux NOOBS.
So, YaST now has the ability to include ISV repositories ... and Novell will tell people who sign up with them when the interface changes?
Sorry, but I'm not seeing the "breakthrough" here.
If device drivers are third-party plugable without a recompile, I wonder if this is going to open the same sort of security hole that windows and it's device driver overwrting causes.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Is not as hard as some make out. It's worth spending a few hours learning how to build your own kernel, it will reward you.
... Standards and Practices !
Then we would not have put up with pitiful crap like this quite so often.
PenGun
Do What Now ???
While you're at it, you could reverse-engineer & document the damn thing, too.
kids these days...
While you're at it with the ® symbol, shouldn't it really read Novell's SUSE® Linux(tm) Enterprise products. As far as I know Linus Torvalds owns the Linux(tm) trademark. In case someone complains, I was going to use the & trade; entity but slashcode filters it out for some reason.
Buy hardware that is supported. Yes it's a pain to do the research, but it's worth it. I have a Shuttle XPC and wanted to install their wireless add-on that doesn't require a PCI slot. I worried about drivers until I found that it uses the ZD1211 chip for which ZyDas provides an open source Linux driver. Then I learned that there is a sourceforge project to rewrite the driver so it's suitable for integration into the mainline kernels - 64bit included. They plan to get into 2.6.17 or 18 kernels, so wireless may well work out of the box when I upgrade to Fedora 6 in the fall. For now it's possible to make it work the hard way (download/compile) without ndiswrapper.
There are other cards with this chip and there are other chips with native Linux drivers in various states. The future looks good.
So enabling YasT to handle kernel modules... is now a breakthrough.
I mean, all this appears to be is distribution of precompiled kernel modules being handled by the package manager. This is not a good thing, let alone a huge advance.
How about a package manager that downloads the code, lets you inspect, customize, or debug it, then compiles it and adds it to your modules list once you approve it?
Is this circumventing the GPL? Doesn't this hinder the ideal of getting the drivers out in the open where the community can support them? Or is this just a way to legitimise binary only drivers? Who will do the security review for these drivers? Seems like a Bad Idea to me.
Let's get philosophical. Why does this problem exist? Has it ever occured to any of you that device drivers are themselves a complete throwback and an obomination in the 21st Century? We take them for granted, but there is no good reason whatsoever for a computer peripheral to use "device drivers". None.
If you can't design a piece of hardware that works through an existing standardised interface you're no kind of engineer at all. And take your pick.. firewire, USB, RS232, SCSI...
Do you suppose every video display, digital camera, audio converter and so on is somehow uniquely special, that it is so ground breaking in its design that it needs custom crafted code just to make it work?
We are so entrenched in our legacy thinking that nobody, not even smart developers ever ask themselves the obvious paradigm breaking question, why the hell should you need a device driver? The reason is no more than a gross failure of modern computing, a failure of standardisation, a failure of coordination and regulation. It is a failure of ourselves as users and customers to demand a higher standard of compatibility. It is a failure of us as developers and coders to solve a simple problem once and move on.
Before you answer with some circular reasoning that merely begs the question take five and think it through. I speak as a software and hardware engineer who has designed and built entire computer systems and written an operating system.
They took a problem, wrapped a marketing program around it, and now it's an enterprise feature!
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
I was just looking for a way to run HL2 on SuSE10. How doyoudo it on Linux?
This is one of the things that stops me from getting rid of Win boot on my PC. (and poor support for ATI TV card, and wireless).... groan...
It just pisses me off how Novell might be very successful in this, and if they are, it has no benefit for Linux (as in, you know, the free/open source side), and quite possibly a negative effect. All this does is benefit Novell, and once companies write up their drivers, where are the rest of us that use real Linux left? In the dust, and possibly moreso, because now the companies can say with a smile on their faces that they support Linux, and may not ever bother to turn back and support the rest of us. Thanks Novell, for giving the world a stabler Windows.
Remindes me painfully of this: http://www.ussg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0512 .0/0972.html
The only breakthrough here is for hardware companies who don't want to publish specs for their hardware. Whoever at Novell designed this driver deal doesn't truly understand what Free Software is all about (or Open Source for that matter) and why it's important to have documented hardware.
Look, corporate users aren't going to go compile their own kernel, compile their own drivers or download and install binary drivers with a shell script. It's completely absurd to expect them to do that.
What Novell is doing is making it possible for vendors to update drivers without waiting on Novell to distribute them. To date, if you want a driver more recent than what ships with a stable distribution you are generally out of luck. Distributions just can't spend the time and resources it takes to keep changing the kernel in a stable system. It's impractical and counter-productive.
Can vendors ship crap drivers? Yes.
Does this plan from Novell somehow give vendors more magical mojo to destroy your system? No.
Novell is doing a good thing here, quit bitching.
The only breakthrough here is for hardware companies who don't want to publish specs for their hardware.
Which 3D video card vendor does publish a reasonably complete spec for the devices that it sells?
Wasn't it Novell that developed Xgl?
This is only a new process for Novell to deal with vendors to make kernel upgrades more seamless to customers. I don't think this is going to cause all the vendors to release binary only drivers, but for the ones who do, SUSE will now work better with kernel updates. Personally, every system I use has an nvidia card in it and a marvell sata controller which only has a binary driver, about 75 systems btw... So, what kernel am I running? Oh, the stock one that came with red hat el 4, have there been security updates? YES, have I updated NO! because that is 75 systems I have to boot into text mode, rebuild the Nvidia drivers, rebuild the sata drivers, and reboot back to X windows... and that's if everything just works... I've had it not work before. Then of course you have to wait at least 2-3 weeks after red hat releases a new kernel before nvidia publishes the new version of the driver, and all in all its just a huge headache.
Binary only drivers are here to stay folks, we aren't going to abolish them, and as long as Linus is in charge of the kernel we aren't going to get a stable ABI, so, kernel update means recompile all your drivers... Any way to ease this burden is a GOOD THING because it encourages people to update their kernels. upgrading a kernel right now on any somewhat complex system, or anything that might not be 100% supported (IE wifi, some network cards, some storage devices and video cards) means a huge headache every single time a new kernel is released (by the major vendors at least 6 times a year). I estimate that if I were to keep my system updated it would take an additional 6-700 man hours per year, that is 30,000-35,000 dollars at $50/hour (which is low), you have to figure 1+ hour per system 75 systems, 6 times a year...
Cedega - http://www.transgaming.com/
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
Whaaaaaa.... What happen to free nux software? :)
Of course this benefits Novell. They have a business to run. But just because you're upset another distro might not benefit from this, it's rather unfair to say that SUSE isn't "real" Linux, isn't it? Aside from proprietary drivers (and there aren't many - I'm not using any in my case), all source is included in the distribution.
http://outcampaign.org/
Hmmm, look, Mr. Gates,
A user expects his system to be configurable by nice, friendly, intuitive and easy-to-use GUI apps that come with a nice in-built help section.
Yes, Mr. Gates, we know that. But Linux has this "control center" GUI thingie that does anything a user needs to control. It's only those weirdos who have been smoking too much of that stuff that got you nailed in New Mexico (you sure look funny in that mugshot, boss!) who use vi or emacs, anyhow.
However, we all know that sometimes we have problems that only the weirdos can solve, then they use vi to edit some stuff the same way our technical guys edit The Holy Registry. The difference is that the Linux weirdos have something they call
there are quite a lot of reasons why so many programmers DEMAND the latest and greatest release of Visual Studio.
Ooohhh, THANK YOU, Mr. Gates! So you do realize how hard we in the Marketing & FUD department have been working? Does this mean we will be paid overtime?
This is a bit offtopic but when is Linux going to go mainstream for general users. I've been running win2k now for 6 years and can't imagine that software companies will still be making win2k compatible stuff 5 years from now so an upgrade will be in order preferably to linux.
Any chance we'll see laptops being sold with cards based on these chips already installed any time soon? Didn't think so. So we either have to rip out the card and spend an extra $50 on a different one (do they still have those idiotic BIOS whitelists?) or live with ndiswrapper and only 70% of the card's functionality.
Everyone is born right-handed; only the greatest overcome it
You all bitch about not having open source drivers, but how many of you look at the source and trace down bugs?
The source is great for driver and kernel developers, but the average application developer could care less about this stuff when all they want is a working OS and drivers that support their hardware.
Stop tugging your little wieners about this open source driver issue. You would understand this if you had a real paying job that involve interfacing with a system that only provided a published interface and no source code.
Ok, I like Linux. In fact, I'd love to write software for it since, as a developer who leverages open source libraries, I feel like Microsoft has told me I'm no longer welcome.
... what there is is not abstract enough to be graced with that name. Module maybe fits. C'mon you geeks, seriously, what's the holdup here? What is the big problem with having a driver binary that just works across all minor revisions of a major version of a Linux kernel? That would be a HUGE plus for me.
So when I saw CentOS, I figured it was time to make the switch. It offered everything I needed. I went to fry's and bought the hardware for my new app server which included a cheapy HighPoint 1640 RAID card so I could setup a RAID 1 system. It said it supported Linux, so I figured I was good.
Well I wasn't good. There was source code for an open source driver from HighPoint. But trying to figure out how to package and build the thing was amazingly arcane and retarded! I HAD to install a floppy disk for godssakes. The experience of trying to bootstrap and get the damned open source drivers built for the thing was a long trip through the fiery pits. Equally evil was trying to figure out how to patch a new kernel with recompiled drivers whenever yum got me a new one. What a pain!
I'm a developer not a sysadmin. The fact that I figured out how to make my RAID card work with Linux was not a satisfying experience to me, it was frustrating and it was a waste of tens of hours over many months. You geeks who like to build kernels and fiddle with make files have at it. It's just not my thing.
In fact, I think there is no such thing as Linux device drivers
Whatever the case, the other poster who said it's not 1992 anymore had it right - we need some more slickness around drivers if we are going to win. And since I'm planning on not upgrading to the next version of windows, I would prefer we start winning on the desktop real quick.
Dave
"Novell isn't /. - this is the real world."
But this is slashdot. To claim this is a breakthrough on slashdot is moronic. Because its not a breakthrough, its setting us back further.
"This argument is repeated time and again here on Slashdot and the fact is it is rediculous. Want to know why? Because Novell's customers want it."
No, its not "rediculous", its perfectly accurate and valid. Because Novell's customers don't matter to linux developers. We want a free operating system we can support and debug. Novell's customers can blow a goat.
Posts like yours always amaze me. You take a contradictory tone, then go on to explain why the parent was right, and even go so far as to give examples of how it can be done, and devices that have already done it.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/directx/default.m spx
That happened... No one likes rewriting from other people's interfaces...
Simple: when your parents/friend/gf asks you about "that Linux thingy" that you use on your desktop, you can burn a SuSE DVD for them and know that their hardware will work with minimal effort on their part. Myself, I'll keep my Debian where I can tweak things to my heart's content. Everyone wins.
Well, as I see it Novell will work with hw companies that want to put Linux Drivers for their product, but the cool thing about this is that once working they could ship a wifi card or a printer with a CD that says "Novell SUSE Linux Support", you can open yast, add an "Add-On Product" and be done with it, what can be easier to install "supported" drivers?, not even windows is this easy (not always).
Yes, at the begining I'm sure we'll lots of binary only drivers, but I'm sure that with time some will open, I don't think that they'll want to keep up with the kABI updates for long, altough Novell will mantain their shiped kernel ABI for longer time.
I think this can be a good movement for Novell, to increse their acceptation as an OS provider and Linux in general, this may give them a better position to talk with hardware manufacturers to open up their drivers, I think Novell can take a polite aproach and be better heard after working with them in this way.
This can have positive effects too!
C-x C-c
I am not trolling. I am one of the many, many PC users that are not code monkeys. I use Windows because (for me) it 'works'. By 'works' I mean that my PC does what I want it to do 99.99% of the time. I have however an older laptop (It's a Haus laptop: Pentium 2, 1.4Ghz, 256MB RAM, 20GB Hard disk - Haus were an own-brand badging for the former jungle.com now owned by Argos) on to which I have installed Mandriva. The experience has been interesting. I can do all sorts of OSS stuff like play OSS games and type up OSS documents and so on. The fun stops, however, when I want to anything that an ordinary PC user might want to do. I cannot surf the web because there are no Linux drivers for my Netgear or Belkin wireless cards. I cannot send or receive email because of the same reason. I cannot download new software because of the same reason. I cannot print anything because I do not have a linux driver for my printer (Lexmark X1170 - if you know of one let me know).All this means is that my Linux laptop is a mere curiosity and not a powerhouse driven by cutting edge OSS technology
Could the people who know all about APIs, ABIs and Microkernels and so on PLEASE stop bickering and just write some drivers.
Open Source of course.
Travelling forward in time at a rate of 1 second per second.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
Same thing could have been said when Redhat introduced the RPM format. "It only works if you use RedHat and if you don't compile your own packages!" I think RPM is pretty usefull.
And again, this is for the Enterprise server. Administrators that use enterprise editions are generally into compiling their own kernels, that would defeat the purpose of an enterprise edition. They're into getting a rock solid vendor guaranteed OS that doesn't break with each security update. That doesn't combine well with compiling your own kernel.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
There is already a process for integrating device drivers into Linux. It's called "releasing your drivers under the GPL". Then they can be incorporated into the main kernel source tree for the benefit of every Linux user, not just users of a particular distribution. It is not rocket science.
SUSE already use a kernel that is patched to christ, so there's not much chance of anything compiled against a SUSE kernel working with a normal kernel from kernel.org such as Debian / Gentoo / Slackware / Ubuntu users will be using. And binary drivers are a massive step backward.
I'm not at all sure this is a good thing. It don't see how it can be anything but divisive. If SUSE users end up becoming dependent upon SUSE for access to proprietary, binary-only drivers, then that absolutely violates the spirit of Free Software.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
By reading Novell's press release and corresponding FAQ I got a feeling that this new driver support scheme is limited to Novell Enterprise line of products. OpenSUSE has not been mentioned once. If I got it right, the Linux communitity will not see any benefits of these "Enterprise Only" binary driver "solution" from Novell.
"Buy hardware that is supported."
My hardware is supported, just not by any Linux distribution.
By the way, that reply is idiotic and snotty, and exactly defines why people despise Linux zealots.
Thanks for being an asshole and doing your part to hold Linux back.
"Just vote with your wallet."
I did. I bought an OS that works with my hardware and told Linux to suck my balls.
indeed, i bought a laptop which came with another card which i never could get to work. i ordered an intel mini pc (2915?? i think) and it worked out of the box with SUSE 10.1 (rc123 - haven't tried the release yet). This is with an amd 64 bit laptop with which i could get nothing else to work. the time i've spent screwing around with other wireless hardware makes the $30 (including shipping) a bargain
But even if you do your research, finding a wireless device with good Linux drivers is a crapshoot.
Manufacturers like to change the chipset without changing the product number or revision number.
When I was shopping for a pci wireless card I read reviews and checked the lists and decided to buy a card with the prism54 drivers (which are the most supported). I decided on a Hawking HWP54G which supposedly uses the prism54 chip, although there were reports newer ones used the broadcom chip (which is probably the second most supported).
When it arrived I plugged it in and found to my delight it had a crappy Texas Instruments ACX 111.
Fortunately some kind soul had hacked out a partially working driver, so it is moderately functional -- I eventually got it to pass traffic after hacking my init scripts, but dhcp always times out, it dumps tons of error messages in the kernel log, the driver seems to randomly stop functioning sometimes and I have to unload and reload the driver for it to start working again, additionally my system is noticeably less stable (but that appears to be improving with the latest release).
Of course this is more or less true with every piece of hardware, since hardware vendors like to switch suppliers to reduce costs and abstract the difference in software. It is more of a problem for wireless where Linux drivers are more sparse...
Sounds like dkms from Dell:
when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
After reviewing the comments on this item, it appears that there are still a lot of questions about Novell's intent and how the program will work. So, I called up Kurt Garloff and Susanne Oberhouser from the SUSE offices and asked them several questions about the program. The interview will appear later today on Novell Open Audio.
2) It was the first post. How can it possibly be "redundant"?
Ridiculous. I wish I had a mod point right now.
-Mike
I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!