Slashdot Mirror
Advice for Linux on a Laptop?
Trillian_1138 is seeking your advice on the following: "So I'm looking at replacing my aging laptop. I have a desktop running Ubuntu, which I use as a primary, and it is more than adequate for my needs. However, I'd love a small, portable laptop to use in class and on trips. I've been looking at the MacBook Pros and, more recently, the MacBooks, and was almost ready to buy the low-end MacBook and be done with it. I liked its ability to dual-book to Windows for a couple of school-related programs, but the more I thought about it the more I like using Ubuntu at home and the less reason I saw to buy a Mac if I could use Ubuntu on a laptop. This brought me to the idea of buying a laptop to use as a dual-boot Linux/Window machine, either with Linux or Windows pre-installed, and setting up a dual-boot with the other OS. Might any of you have advice, anecdotes, success stories, horror stories, or general input?"
"Please note I am not looking for a discussion on whether Linux is 'Ready for the Desktop'. I switched over to Ubuntu earlier this year and haven't looked back. As far as I'm concerned, Linux is ready for *my* desktop, which is all I really care about. This laptop is for me, not my mom. I'm not a command-line guru by any means and likes having a nice GUI, but am comfortable Googling when my DVDs stop playing after an update or poking around in configuration files to get things working. What I'm now curious about is what to expect - positive and negative - with Linux on a laptop.
I know a quick Google search yields lots of information on laptops running Linux, and I am continuing to use Google to look at information on running Linux on laptops which came with Windows, buying OS-less laptops, and buying laptops with Linux pre-installed, but I'm curious what the Slashdot crowd thinks. Is it even worth the bother? Would I be better off buying a Dell and installing Linux or buying a laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed from somewhere like system76.com or Linuxcertified.com?"
I know a quick Google search yields lots of information on laptops running Linux, and I am continuing to use Google to look at information on running Linux on laptops which came with Windows, buying OS-less laptops, and buying laptops with Linux pre-installed, but I'm curious what the Slashdot crowd thinks. Is it even worth the bother? Would I be better off buying a Dell and installing Linux or buying a laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed from somewhere like system76.com or Linuxcertified.com?"
Advice: MAKE SURE you get a wifi card compatible with linux. I got lucky with the intel 2200; at first it had no support, now its in the kernel :)
Speaking as one who has run Linux on a Thinkpad, and hated it. Deals with people who insist on running Linux on their Dell and various other laptops. It's a nightmare. We have a bunch of Linux desktops on normal PCs. These work great.
It's just: if you want UNIX on a laptop, the Mac is an easy way to go.
avoid ati mobiles gpu's
if you need good 3d performance go for nvidia
if 3d gaming is not what you need go for intel integrated graphics as they
have released their drivers opensource iirc and it's in the kernel as we speak
I ran mandrake on an older sony vio (800mhZ) thru several releases including thier newest 2006 version without a problem. Everythign installed fine, Got my DVD's working easily and dual booted with windows XP 2000 and 98se. Actualy I had more problem getting 2000 and 98se (wich never was 100% because of drivers)
My sugestion, look for a laptop that isn't bleeding edge and maybe go for somehtign a year or so old. Use a current version of your brand of linux, and increase the memory as much as possible. Look at even getting a larger drive so you can make a plain fat32 partition that can be use form both XP and linux. I made the mistake of not doing this and then i was left with getting NTFS working in linux and installing a ext3 driver in windows. the 98 partition wasn't large enough to be effective in sharing files between operating systems.
Oh yea, Take a reletivly current bootable linux CD with you when your looking at the laptops. It should give you a decent idea of everything that would work or not. It make take some adjusting but if it works on the cd, you should be able to get it working on a local install. If somethign doesn't work, google around a bit, there maybe a fix that just wasn't included on the CD.
It would be a good idea to list down the brands and make of the laptops you're interested in buying. Don't worry about compatibility at the moment, deciding on how your future laptop would look like comes first.
t =180&value=laptop&titlesearch=Titles
Afterwards you might want to visit Ubuntu's forums and run a search on them to check out how current users of those laptops are faring with Ubuntu at the moment. There's usually quite a bunch of threads discussing the graphic drivers to use, how much of the system is working perfectly etc.
And check out the wiki as well!
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/?action=fullsearch&contex
I've found these guys very helpful in getting laptops working with various distros:
http://www.linux-laptop.net
See which laptops seem to have the best support and go from there.
I ran linux on my laptop after I switched to linux and had too much trouble with drivers. Hint one: research drivers BEFORE buying. Some manufacturers customize the hardware so even an nvidia card doesn't necessarily work.
After buying a researched and compatible machine the drivers worked and wireless/video were possible. Problem is that linux on a laptop for anybody that pokes and tries new stuff means that you're constantly fixing and researching. I'm not upset but you must be aware that you're not going to get it working perfect or ever keep things as desired. It is delicate (thought problems are localized, it is linux) and different distros are wildly different on laptops. Ubuntu has worked well for me on this one but Fedora was better on my last, expect to experiment some before settling on the best option.
-Tim Louden
I'm posting this from an Ubuntu-running Gateway M460, though it would take torture to get me to recommend a Gateway laptop. I'm on my third motherboard for this unit, and it was a "lemon" replacement for a M450. But everything works, short of the multicard reader.
I've also had fantastic luck with Ubuntu on every IBM laptop I've ever used, and my old Compaq 1800T works like a champ under Ubuntu. I've yet to find a situation where it wasn't able to handle the hardware and well.
1) Use a 2.6 kernel. If you don't, you're headed for a world of pain. Most wireless drivers don't work with 2.4, and there is no ACPI power management driver.
2) Make sure your wireless card has a linux driver available. The alternative is 'ndiswrapper' (which uses your Windows drivers), and that's very unreliable.
3) Make sure your laptop supports ACPI for power management. It is better than APM and has better support for sleep-mode etc.
4) nVidia graphics cards are preferable to ATI. This is a point of personal preference, but nVidia's linux drivers are much better.
5) Since you mentioned dual boot... Partition your hard drive 3 ways. One partition for the Windows installation. One for linux. Then a third partition (formatted as FAT-32) which can be accessible from both OS's.
---
This anonymous post was brought to you by the image-protected password "anatomic"
I've done many dual boot laptops, but the last laptop I bought I wasn't in the mood for jumping through all of the hoops (especially wireless drivers).
On a whim I downloaded the vmware virtual machine software, and in less than an hour had a fully functional full color, wireless working, all peripherals working, full Xserver resolution laptop. It was WONDERFUL. And worth every penny!
What started out as an experiment for another way yielded other unexpected benefits. Suddenly I could run a fully loaded linux in the vmware server, and communicate with it from XP! Suddenly what used to require two machines I was able to do on the one.
Some of the configuration required some good indepth linux knowledge and a few google visits. If you can tweak, it's worth the investment.
Good luck. (And feel free to send e-mail if you have specific questions, I'll gladly fill you in on some of the tweaks)
Check out http://emperorlinux.com/ for a lot of options for pre-installed Linux on your laptop. You can order a notebook with dual-boot and they list all the devices etc. that are available to your Linux environment.
The sacred and the propane
ACPI - For battery life (It's getting better, but there are some units which still have problems)
Wifi - Both card and encryption mechanism. (Again, this is getting better and WPA support is becomming well integrated)
Graphics - Mobile Nvidia usually has better support then ATI.
Function Keys - There is fairly good toshiba support for function keys, but it's always nice to have the LCD bright/dim, mouse lock, etc. work correctly.
Proof by very large bribes. QED.
If you like Ubuntu, you could probably do pretty well with a Thinkpad x41. I have the tablet version dual-booting Ubuntu and WinXP with both OS's running great (with /home mounted under both). Most features work out of the box under Linux and the rest are pretty easy to set up.
A lot of elitists loved the IBM ThinkPad T-series (particularly those with a "p" after the model name). Even with Lenovo's recent purchase of them, the laptops have remained solid hardware for Linux. I have run both Ubuntu and Gentoo on them. See ThinkWiki for some good information on running Linux on the whole ThinkPad line.
There are other good notebooks which can often be just as good. Just figure out what hardware you want to run and how much you're willing to pay for it. If you are tech-savy, install it yourself (sadly, you'll probably have to pay the Windows tax (though you may find some bare notebooks, sales on a win32 laptop will often be cheaper than a notebook with no software)). If not, get it from LinuxCertified.
If you don't get something mainstream, be sure to try a LiveCD in it first & dig up as much dirt on it as possible.
You may have to pay more (IBM) or you may get a crappy product (Dell) however if you buy a laptop that is very popular, there are more likely to be drivers written for it's devices. If you are lucky, it will "just work" out of the box.
I had a good experience earlier this year with a Dell Latitude D610. It's a cheap an cheerful laptop, however OpenSUSE 10.0 was a breeze - after a trouble free installation everything just worked, with minimal configuration of drivers and hardware.
Please don't send a Word document when a text file will do the job.
Ubuntu on a laptop can be made to work quite well. Ubuntu is the only operating system on my G3 iBook as well as my desktop PC. While it's fairly simple to put together a 100% Linux-compatible desktop machine, many people are surprised to learn that an iBook can be a full-featured Linux machine as well. The only drawback is that since the open-source world is x86-centric, there are issues with multimedia support. While you can get proprietary video and audio formats chugging along on an x86 PC by wrapping Windows codecs, this option doesn't exist on PPC. However for most other tasks it's quite sufficient.
I'm in the market for another laptop, and I will be continuing to use Ubuntu as the primary OS. The new MacBook seems like an excellent choice, except that Linux support tends to follow behind a month or two behind Apple hardware releases. Probably the MacBook Pro has cleared the path a bit, but I'm skeptical that I'll be able to use all the hardware features in Linux right away, and in that case what is the point?
While I can't offer too much advice regarding what laptop to buy for yourself, I'll tell you what my decision will probably be. Simply being an x86 gives the MacBook an advantage over the iBook for multimedia support. Even though Linux support for the MacBook will lag behind, there's no reason why I can't dual-boot OSX and Ubuntu for a while until there's enough hardware support to allow me to run Ubuntu full-time. OSX is a pretty respectable unix system and I'm sure I'd have fun using it for a while, even though experience has taught me that I will eventually get frustrated and go back to a free-software OS. Seriously. It's a cultural thing.
So for me it'll be a maxed-out black MacBook. If Ubuntu isn't shiny enough right away I'll use OSX to hold me over. I'll probably try running GNOME on it just for fun. ^_^
Buying a laptop with Linux installed on it is like buying a car with the engine already.... no wait. Buying a laptop pre-installed is like buying a house with the furniture already.... damn.
What I'm trying to say is, there's something about linux that just lends itself to a self-initiated install. You'll have an easier time of it if you have to go through the grunt work on your own. You'll know where things are, what you changed, and you get a better pick of distros than you will probably find pre-installed.
This coming from a Debian-addict. I haven't looked at Ubuntu yet. I go vanilla Debian and add what I need for the machine I am using. I also still use windows on the desktop, but all the servers I operate run Linux. I go for flexibility. Yeah, you could use Wine or VMware as someone already mentioned, but what else am I going to do with that Windows license that came with my laptop?
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
Only major problem was getting the NDIS wrapper to work. Took a couple tries, but now it work gorgeously.
If you need to dual-boot and read the Windows partition, I'd advise against Fedora since it does not come pre-built with FAT32 mounting.
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
First, there is OS X. Even if you don't think you're that interested, just give it a try. You might like it. You could also keep it around for media purposes (iDVD, etc).
You can run Windows, Linux or OS X. You can run virtualization software (Parallels Workstation is the name of the main one right now, and some say Leopard will have it built in) so you can run multiple OSes at once with better performance than VMWare (just make sure to put a ton of RAM in). My understanding is that Macs end up very well supported too in Linux. Combine that with the fact you are now using x86 hardware (which means it's in lots of laptops) and the drivers should be there very soon (if they aren't there now).
Plus there is the great Apple hardware. If you get the MacBook Pro, you get the cool glowing keyboard and screen that brighten and dim with the ambient light (note: no idea how well this is supported in Linux). The thing is thin, quiet (compared to most laptops), they are supposed to be running much cooler with the latest firmware update, they have the sudden motion sensor, front row remote (someone will make that work under Linux soon), magsafe power connector, and more.
They are BEAUTIFUL machines. OS X is fantastic. Give it a try. Worst case scenario, you end up with a beautiful laptop running Linux. Or you may just fall in love with OS X. Either way, it's great hardware.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
I am posting from an HP Pavilion ze2000z running dual-boot Debian and Windows. I haven't booted to Windows in at least three months. The laptop basically works, though the version of ndiswrapper I have to use for the WiFi seems to cause kernel panics; I haven't had time to diagnose it further. I'm sure the modem doesn't work, but I've never tried it, and I don't really care. Sound does work with ALSA for the most part, but you need a newer version of ALSA than is compiled into the default kernels (I don't know what version is installed with Ubuntu, but I'm running 1.0.8). Sound buttons don't do anything; again, I don't care. ACPI works fine as far as the battery status at least. The Synaptic touchpad driver seems to work well enough, though I could stand to tweak some settings to avoid random mouse clicks. I haven't had time to mess with it yet.
The biggest problem I have is that, even for Linux, 256 MB is insufficient for what I want to do sometimes. I really wish I'd spent the extra money on more memory. Certain programs that I unfortunately need to use on occasion (*cough*acroread*cough*) can be real memory hogs.
The real point, though, is that I have a rather functional Debian system on my laptop.
Be especially careful about whether your laptop's power management (battery management, auto powering down of components like disks, display, NICs etc.) is supported by your distro. You don't want to manually go to sleep or shutdown every 10 minutes or so in order to save battery power...
If you ask me, I would already have bought the MacBook, the black one just look gorgeous !
OS X is simply the best unix desktop OS around : it has the best plug and play experience around in terms of quality, it runs Office, Photoshop and Apache, and its excellent user-oriented optimizations makes everything feel snappy, especially with many apps open, an area where Windows definitively sucks, even on superior hardware.
Imagine that at last you can run it on the same kickass CPU's than PC's. Hell, you can even run Windows AND Linux natively ! For the same budget, I really don't see how one wouldn't want to run such a cutting-edge OS (and any other popular one) on such a beautiful laptop.
FYI I have been mac-only for years (I am a happy PC owner since 1 year but my main box is a G4). ;)
Sorry for the enthusiastic biased style, but when it comes to Mac vs. Linux I just can't control myself
Nowadays, if I was buying one, I would carefully look at the competition, as everyone has good screens and there are really only few actual manufacturers that make notebooks - everyone else just sells a branded solution (Dell included).
So, in no particular order:
I have heard that Intel has open source drivers for some of their shared memory chipsets, so this might be a reasonable choice, especially with higher memory speeds being available.
(My personal preference is to try to avoid binary drivers as these tend to break when upgrading compiler versions of glibc library. Don't know what I'll be doing in a few years when I start looking for a new notebook.)
When checking hardware compatibility don't forget to check the more unusual/proprietary things on the laptop. LCD brighteness, jog dial, that kind of thing. The sonypi driver fixed several issues for my Sony Vaio z505, but I still don't know how to turn off the LCD backlight.
I've had great luck running Linux on Thinkpads. The models I've used over the years are: Thinkpad 600, Thinkpad R32, and (currently) Thinkpad T42. The R-series is the "cheap" line of Thinkpads, and I'd recommend paying the extra money for a T-series. My R32 was glitchy with suspend, even after sending it in for repairs.
The only real trouble area for me is being able to effectively use dual monitors (the laptop LCD + an external VGA). It's easy to set up dual monitors, but not so easy (not so possible?) to have your desktop be aware of when you disconnect the external VGA monitor (to, say, go to the coffee house) and know not to pop up new windows on the screen that's not there anymore. This is an area that Windows does a lot better in, and as far as I know this is an issue with running Linux on most laptops.
IBM has recently sold their Thinkpad line of laptops to Lenovo, and I'd be rather cautious about these new Lenovo-produced notebooks. Not because Lenovo is a Chinese company, but because it seems that in many acquisitions quality goes down as the new company discovers corners to cut. The Lenovo Thinkpads may be great for all I know, though.
Another poster commented negatively on Thinkpads and Linux, but I think he was looking at it from a "what OS to run on your notebook" point of view, and not a "what's the best notebook for Linux" point of view. If your work requires Linux, like mine does, I'd definitely look into a Thinkpad.
I'd be very interested in hearing about Linux compatibility with MacBook hardware. If Thinkpads start to suck, I'll probably take a serious look at MacBooks.
Powernotebooks actually sells decent laptops without 'Doze. I haven't ordered from them yet, but if I were looking for a non-Mac laptop, I certainly would. Their recent rating on resellerratings.com is a perfect 10. Good selections, and you can probably find something with GMA950 graphics and Intel wireless so you may not need closed source drivers for anything.
However, I'm getting a Mac. I've concluded that OS X is simply a "better UNIX than Linux" on laptops. Suspend/resume and Wifi just work, and work well. No tinkering and hoping it will work.
I'm still very much a Linux guy and won't change my desktop. And I hope that the next laptop I buy after this Mac will be Linux based, and run everythig just as well as the Mac. But for now I'm convinced that MacBook[Pro] is the way to go for *NIX geeks.
Unlike every other brand of laptop, Apple's laptops don't have a right mouse button.
Intel still hasn't made a 64 bit laptop chip yet.
Melissa
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
I boot it with Knoppix Live CD
Better yet, a live Knoppix DVD.
Unless, of course, you're a perfectionist that you believe Linux must be installed natively, but I beg you try it and examine its features before judging it. There's no harm in trying.
And you'd find it surprisingly featureful.
I'm typing this on my HP zv5000 laptop I got about 1 1/2 years ago. It's a heavy old thing -- not the best for carrying around a lot, but I got it for a good price. It runs Ubuntu just as well as my desktop -- which means there are some of the headaches you'll find with any given distro, but I'm mostly happy with it. I partitioned the 40GB disk into two, first thing after I got it, so it dual-boots to the original Windows XP. Actually, the desktop machine and this laptop are running Kubuntu (KDE), but I've had the Gnome version running too. Either one works -- just the usual idiosyncracies of KDE vs. Gnome. The built-in Broadcomm wireless works, with ndiswrapper and the Ubuntu (Debian) wireless tools. I've never had the extra buttons working (volume control, "www", "email" etc.), but that's not a big problem to me. My advice -- what I did when I bought this laptop -- is bring a Knoppix CD and ask to see it boot up before you buy.
I've been running Ubuntu on a laptop as my primary system (a Toshiba Satellite hand-me-down). It's not without its hassles, but it works very well. This last month, I had to totally retool my setup for a new job (installing a bunch of things like Eclipse, Ant, JBoss, etc.), and after a mammoth RAM upgrade to handle it all, it's working very nicely.
Battery life is sucktastic, and I'm not sure if that's a hardware or a software problem. It's a fairly old computer, and it's been through a lot. It also refuses to hibernate properly, so I have to power down when I'm moving it from place to place.
There are certainly a lot fewer rough edges than there were back when I was first trying out the whole "Linux thing".
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
My previous linux laptop ran Mandrake until the hard drive crashed due to the sudden deceleration after a 6 foot drop. I ran it just fine with a Knoppix CD for over two years, until it stopped working piece by piece. The built in keyboard, touchpad, and battery all died one by one until I finally had to stop using it when the CD-ROM drive gave out. Call me stingy, but being able to run Linux on that laptop when I was a poor college student really saved me some money.
Basically, running Linux on a laptop is no different than on a desktop. Just be a little bit careful about checking hardware compatibility and you should have no problem. Enough people run the big names like Dells that finding help should be relatively easy.
This space intentionally left blank.
... abbreviates nicely as "LOL".
Coincidence? I think not.
My guess is that you're probably going to end up re-installing both OSs in order to get sensible partitions, unless some of the linux laptop vendors offer a pre-installed dual boot system and you're not very picky.
Given that, assuming you really need to have a dual boot windows, it doesn't matter what you buy. So, go with a windows pre-install if you're willing to do some hardware compatibility research ahead of time and want an easy oem discount on windows. Go with a linux pre-install if you either want to support pro-linux companies or you want to avoid having to pay much attention to hardware details.
On the other hand, if you don't use windows very much, it might be worth considering running vmware with a windows guest OS. It's a lot nicer than having to reboot every time you're forced to run windows. And of course you can use all your favorite linux backup tools and file transfer tools without a hickup. And, if you're cheap or resent paying money to microsoft, that way you can run the same windows virtual machine with a single license on both you desktop and laptop (or rather, divergent sibling virtual machines).
My girlfriend got an Asus laptop that did not come with an operating system because she didn't want to pay $100 for Windows when she plans on installing Linux on it. The problem is, Linux does not like to play nice with it...
In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
Here's where I'm at so far, and what I'm still working on
-Used PartitionMagic to create ext3, linuxswap, and fat32 partitions prior to ubuntu installation (get it OEM v.8.0 for $20 off PriceGrabber.com)
Out-of-the-box:
The screen brighten/dim function keys work
Touchpad works
Everything else, except what's noted in last section
Used info in the Ubuntu forums to set up the following
-fglrx driver for 3D acceleration with my ATI card
-wpa_supplicant for WPA encryption
-ipw driver for intel wireless
Future projects: (free-time dependent)
-built-in SD card reader does not work yet
-after installing the ATI driver, suspend-to-disk crashes on resume
-suspend-to-RAM crashes on resume 1/3 of time
-external monitor port doesn't work w/ projector
I'm really happy with it so far - the few remaining challenges will only give me an opportunity to learn Linux better.
AFAIK, Laptops with Windows pre-installed don't come with the install CD. This means if you want to dual-boot with Linux, It's going to be really sketchy resizing the NTFS partition and using Linux on the remainder of the drive.
my advice is as follows. know that i have 4 laptops running linux and have been through just about every issue out there.
first,
avoid GPUs for power management. i have a radeon x1400 in one laptop but when i use accelerated drivers my power management doesn't work. if you want a laptop to just work get an inbuilt intel chipset. neither the ati or nvidia GPU have good power management in linux at this point.
know that your disk drive will be slow and choose packages and distros carefully based on the hardware specs. I use (k)ubuntu and am up-to-date with dapper6.06 and everything works very well on my dell 600m. suspend to ram works well and hibernate works well also, both with some tweeking.
wifi is quite easy now. many devices have inbuilt drivers in modern kernels or can use ndiswrapper and the windows drivers. configuring wireless networks has not gotten as easy as windows on all distros but in *ubuntu it is quite easy. 'network manager' programs makes it EASIER than windows in my opinion.
most newer laptops are linux compatible as far as the other hardware. i have 2 machines with memory card slots and they work well, also pcmcia devices work very well as long as the device is supported.
really, you should have no problems if you buy the right hardware.
i know that:
dell 600m
dell e1505
compaq m2000
emachines/averatek m5105
all work well. the m2000 does not like suspend to ram though.
good luck
I've found Suse 9.2 and up supports various wifi out of the box. I don't know about the Apple Airport though... The drivers seem to be wrapped up and can't be accessed directly so I can't seem to get airsnort to work with it. But then again I was (and still am) a n00b to Linux.
thousands of first hand experiences, sorted by laptop make/model and distro.
It has some very specific info on getting certain things like touchpads etc to work on some models that could save you HOURS of searching.
http://www.linux-laptop.net/
best of luck.
Besides that I AM a Mac user, I prefer Linux the OSX to use GNU apps, not everything Linuxy works on OSX.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
I'm on my third. I have bought my employees almost a dozen. Absolutely, no hardware issues. Their warranty support is amazing. And, every model so far has run linux extremely well.
I run Fedora Core 5, and everything just works. The only customization I did was to load the fglrx driver for the video (just to see the difference). But, the standard radeon driver does all my day-to-day stuff just fine.
Every single component worked without configuration (WiFi - Cisco, ENet - Intel, Bluetooth, IR, USB 2.0, Suspend, Hibernate). In hindsight, I guess I've never tried my modem.
I'm not getting real good battery life, but my current battery is 3 years old, and I use it a lot.
D.
[
I was one of the lucky 15 in my town who got an HP ze2000 from Wally-World the morning after last Thanksgiving, for $400 out the door.
Ndiswrapper works the Broadcom wireless nicely, the ATI driver gives me 3D screensavers, the sound works, and I even spent a couple of hours getting the modem working just to see if I could.
I sprung an extra $50 for another 512MB of RAM. I'm loving the crap out of this thing...
I've used Thinkpads since 1997 or so. They are well designed tanks. If you do a lot of text input, you will want the joystick mouse control. Touch pads, drive me bats now. Over the years, they have gotten a little less sturdy but they are still very good. My favorite is still a 600 for it's small size and reliability. My current model is a poorly kept T23, which I did not buy from Certified Used. Power management works flawlessly on all models, with some tweaking - usually as simple as turning off ACPI and using APM for sleep.
The only strenuous advice I have is to avoid "desktop replacement" pigs. All computers look "obsolete" in a few years. The small difference in performance between small, cute laptops does not justify the extra weight. You might think it does today, but two or three years from now, when clock speeds have doubled again, you won't. As an extreme example consider two 10 year old laptops, a 560 and a 380 thinkpad. Today, the 560, is still cute but a technically superior 380 is an ugly brick. At the time, the 380 was 50% faster and had twice the memory and a much better screen. The screen is still better, but the fan is loud, the case is huge, the 16MB of RAM is laughable and it's just too heavy. Unless your hands are unusually large, consider an X series.
Avoid high school castoffs and other poorly handled and maintained notebooks. Screws should be replaced every time because they depend on a nylon coating to work. When you take them out, you mess that coat up and things get loose. Really badly maintained models will have missing screws and broken structural parts. They are not reliable and you might have to boot them daily like a Windoze machine. Yes, that's the worst I've ever seen in a Thinkpad. Lesser computers might not boot at all after such bad treatment.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
EmperorLinux specializes in configuring Linux laptops. And, they maintain a good stock of IBM's.
Their markup is a little high, but their support is excellent.
I haven't purchased from them, yet. But, I bought a support agreement and a depot install from them. I shipped them a latop, and they shipped it back with a fully configured Redhat. Very nice, very easy.
D.
PS - No, I do not work for them, and no they are not friends of mine.
[
Look for something 2 years old and then research that laptop. It's rare to find a new machine that will run Linux seamlessly. At the 1 year mark a lot of major issues have often been solved by early adopters and at the 2 year mark it's as fully functional as it will get for that machine.
For each of my active projects, I clone a new virtual machine (or machines in the case of servcer projects). I never have to worry about one customer's configuration or third party tools corrupting the environment of another. I keep all my business critical applications running on linux (e-mail, web, IM, Word Processing, Spreadsheet).
And, when my development environment crashes Windows, I just restart the VMWare session. When, updates are suddenly required that need a reboot, I reboot the session. If some really long process has to run (like Windows Update or a software install), I start a new session with a different project and use my spare time effectively.
But, by far the most amazing use of that environment is the ability to start a windows server in one session, and clients in a few other sessions. And, test all the interactions without having sever computers set up. In fact, I was able to do some stress testing of my server, with 4 mixed operating system clients, while on the airplane!
D.
[
As for laptop models, I highly recommend the ASUS line of whitebooks.
I tried to buy one of these last night instead of a new MacBook because the MacBook has the "glossy" screen.
It turns out the new Asus models do as well. They even have enough honesty to call them "glare-type" screens on their website. The biggest problem was finding a dealer who could easily customize these things. I tried most of them on Where to Buy page and none were easy or had the options listed on the Asus site. If anyone can find an Asus with a Core Duo, bluetooth 2, 1394, integrated webcam and intel wireless without the glare type screen, please post (preferably 14").
All the same goes for the Clevo gear. There was exactly one Sager that fit the bill but it was too ugly for words.
Maybe I need to find somebody who will spray an antiglare coating on a MacBook for me.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I got a HP dv1420 on which I am running Fedora Core 5.t ?cc=ca&docname=c00500901&lc=en/
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocumen
As many other posters have said the ipw2200 drivers are open source and in the kernel, though running fedora I know I had to get the actual ipw firmware from livna since it isn't open source. Howver, this didn't appear to be a problem with a live ubuntu cd (I suspect they include them anyway).
The graphics card is a Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 900-, again as other posters have said it's open source and in the kernel (though I couldn't actually get it to work until FC5). The card is decent, good enough to play ppracer on low settings, though on higher settings it got choppy. Also running bzflag only 1/4 of the screen actually showed up. I haven't tested any games other than these two and have no idea of the cards stability/performance under windows.
For a graphics card my reccomendation is thus. If you want some real 3D Linux gaming, go with NVidia. If however your 3D gaming needs are slight/non-existant such as mine are, go with the Intel card. With the Intel card inclusion in the kernel means you don't need to reinstalling everytime you do a kernel upgrade, also I know myself (as well as others) have had stability issues with NVidia drivers in the past. I don't know how much development is going on with the Intel drivers but hopefully most of the bugs will be worked out in the next few months.
Sound worked fine.
As for ACPI it seems to be working well for the moment though I've had minor issues in the past, the only special buttons that work are sound, and I haven't tried the card reader or played with the Bluetooth much (sounds like it could work with fiddling). For the battery using wireless with the screen turned down I can go 2-2.5 hrs (haven't tried without wireless much).
At the end of the day my best suggestion is to get a live Ubuntu cd, head down to a computer store, and see if they let you boot it (the only store that didn't let me do so was BestBuy). That lets you actually see most of what works and what doesn't work, of course there is additional stuff you can get working with fiddling (or even by just running an update) but the more things that just work the better.
I stole this Sig
I inherited a four-year-old Dell Latitude C610 with a 60 GB drive, 512 Mb and a decent Pentium processor. For wireless, I use a Netgear WG511.
I run Kubuntu (Breezy) and Windows XP in this old warhorse with very few issues. The Dell has ATI graphics, and the original Kubuntu install detected it just fine. I also had zero issues with detection of the wi-fi card.
I don't do any gaming or anything particularly system intensive with this old warhorse, but it's getting the job done. I take it lots of places, so it's well-traveled. Couldn't ask for much more that that.
Joe Dougherty, Florida, USA
The words I thought I brought, I left behind. So, never mind.
With SuSE 9.1 and 9.3 on IBM ThinkPad A31p (get a "p", they got high resolution displays, my have a 15" 1600x1200 and A31p is still available some places). I also successfully installed SuSE 9.3 on my wifes HP Pavilion ZV600 (AMD Athlon 64), but I didn't check the WiFi. None of these are however lightweight... but I do not need a small laptop.
I've seen Ubuntu on IBM ThinkPad X and R run without problems and tried SuSE 9.3 on a ThinkPad 390X (600 MHz).
A girl who lives across the hall also has a T23 (with windows, but live cd's work jsut fine on it) that is equally as old as mine and works just as well...no hardware problems for either of us. A girl down the hall has a T43 which is just a beatiful system and a guy down the hall just got a t60 which is great (and the first model released after the branding switch).
The girl with the T23 just bought a macbook (on release day, they were in stock in the chicago store...she made what might be the largest impulse buy I have seen someone actually make) and it is really really nice...and osx is...kind of like linux. I may buy her T23 off of her just because mine works so well and I have family who I may be able to convince to use it if I give them a preprepared linux laptop that just works (like the thinkpads do). The ebay market has seen a HUGE influx of these machines so the price is way down. They must have just ended a lot of corporate leases or something becasue the price is half what it was a year ago even though other companies similarily specced (albiet crappier because tehy are compaq or dell) machines are more expensive than the T23s.
Yes...go thinkpads!
Bottles.
I have been using Dell's for several years now, and have to say one of the advantages of a Dell is that Linux runs on it without any hassles. I have not had any issues with respect to Linux. In fact my latest Dell 6000 ran without a single flaw (ATI graphic card included). Because it runs so well (Ubuntu Dapper Drake) I always run Linux.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Most laptop modems are those crappy soft modems which require firmware/drivers that are hard to obtain and/or only works in windows. If you wish to use the modem make sure you get one that is Linux supported.
I chose a laptop that claimed full Linux support -- in fact, there was a site reselling these and preinstalling Linux on them. It was a Sharp...
I'm now on a Powerbook, running OS X. Noticing the difference, here are some things to keep in mind:
First: Wireless support on Linux is a bit arcane. My wireless on my Mac is easy enough -- all networks in the area are detected automatically and put on the menu, then it asks me if I want to connect to the best open one, unless it finds one I've told it to "trust" already. On Linux, I had to know the SSID, because while the internal wireless was supported well enough, it didn't support detecting networks.
I'd suggest you find someone who's got this working well on Linux before you attempt it yourself. Find out what card they used, and if yours is going to be different, boot a Knoppix on their laptop and make it work with that, detection and all. Once you're sure you know how to do that, boot the same Knoppix on a laptop with the card you're getting.
Other than that, my biggest problem was video. My video card was supported out of the box, and it worked fine, but the performance sucked for playing back DVDs. But then, when I finally booted Windows on the thing (because tech support demanded it), I found that Windows sucked at DVDs just as much. The wierd bit was, it could play some of the lower-quality DivX Anime that I'd downloaded. I suspect it was either the Silicon Motion card sucking, or the 1 ghz TransMeta processor being unable to handle DVD quality mpeg decoding -- but then, I think I tried decoding ahead of time, and finding no difference...
So, the main things to remember about getting it to "just work" are:
Test it. This is a general guideline for buying a new computer, although I tend to build Desktops and hope they'll work properly once assembled. But with laptop Linux, it's critical, mainly because of the Wireless.
Other than that, my only problems with that laptop came from dropping it, which is why I have the Powerbook -- it's durable.
Now, one more thing: power management. I never dual-booted, so I found hibernate to be very useful on that laptop. On the other hand, with working CPU scaling and the disk spinning down when unused, I could usually close it up and let it run for about 10 or 12 hours without having to hibernate or sleep. This Mac lasts days on sleep, but OS X has no equivalent to Hibernate.
You probably won't know whether Hibernate (aka Software Suspend, swsusp, suspend2...) will work for you until you try it.
And regarding that hard disk, my FS of choice was Reiser4, and I'd recommend that to anyone who can find a way of installing on it without losing their sanity. I used it for months before the official release, and it lost data back then. Not anymore, but running an experimental FS should just be that much more incentive to backup the most physically vulnerable computer you own. Reiser4 does half of "laptop mode" -- it won't flush to disk until it absolutely has to, and then it will generally flush everything it has. I actually went one step further -- I patched my kernel to ignore the fsync system call, replacing it with something along the lines of "return success".
Failing that, the laptop mode patches go a bit further anyway, although other FSes won't be as efficinent space-wise as Reiser4. Laptop mode will delay writes until it absolutely has to flush -- but when it has to spin the disk up for any reason, including reads, it'll make sure to flush everything before the disk spins down again.
That kind of behavior was what I missed on my Mac. They're both rock-solid OSes, they're not going to crash, but OS X on HFS+ spins the disk up much more often.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
This is a pretty trivial point, but in order to check out a laptop, you could burn a live CD with Ubuntu/Kubuntu, or even get hold of a DVD edition of Knoppix or something, and take this CD to the store to test things out. It might give you some clues on things that you consider important: Wifi, graphics/screen, interaction devices/USB. Bring along your camera, mouse, USB plug, mp3 player etc.
About a year ago I purchased my second laptop from www.discountlaptops.com, to avoid paying the Windows tax. Although they don't provide Linux support explicitly, they understand what it is, use it themselves, and don't push Windows or get huffy when doing warranty work under Linux. They also discuss on their website how the laptop market works, in that the brandnames you see on laptops do NOT produce the units themselves, so you'd do as well buying from the OEM.
You should also become familiar with the term "whitetops", which is the market where you buy the laptop frame from an OEM, and then add your own RAM, WiFi PCI, internal video card (in some cases), hard drive, DVD or CD, producing a totally custom box.
I run Gentoo, carefully tuned to the laptop, and it runs very fast and has become my primary desktop. No Windows on it anywhere. Also get absolutely as much RAM as you can, as its more important on a laptop than a desktop to minimize disk spin up.
I've collected my tweaks and experiences on my wiki at www.taupro.com/wiki/ChemBook/HomePage.
Just use OS X (and Windows if you need it!).
OS X is fantastic! I'm a long time linux advocate, but I'm increasingly leaning in favour of using OS X as an alternative to desktop Linux. It's just a better desktop experience.
If you really are dedicated to Linux, any Centrino laptop with intel graphics and wireless is a sure thing. You might lose out on things like SD card readers, but the processors, wireless and graphics are fully supported.
Good Luck,
Joel.
Try colinux: http://www.colinux.org/ for another way to do this. I've used it on 3 laptops now and it works great.
I run Mozilla and Thunderbird on the Linux side, with windows providing nice drivers for all my devices.
The only one problem with laptopts, and PC in general as well, is whether the drivers are available in the distribution.
For example I have bought an Asus V6J to run Kubuntu.
It took me one day to finish the installation because the ethernet driver was not in the distribution!
This is the real point with LInux distributions: too much fragmentation of efforts and resources.
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
I can't speak for everyone, but the wireless chipset in my MacBookPro is based on the Broadcom BCM4310. In other words, it's 802.11a/b/g and works great on Mac and on Windows. I don't know exactly what driver it's using in Windows, I just used the driver CD that BootCamp made for me.
There are currently no Windows drivers for the built-in webcam, the backlit keyboard, the automaticly adjusting backlight, or the sudden motion gyro sensor.
i bought my inspiron 600m with xp pro back at the start of 2005.
my first attempt to get linux running (and i am quite a noob) was with a fedora double-boot. i had some problems with configuration (especially wireless) and not enough time to sort it out, so i just left it and kept using windows.
in late summer a friend pointed me towards ubuntu and i gave that a shot. it managed to sort out almost everything... except my wireless again. the wireless card was a dell branded 1450 b/g (made by broadcom). i through all i could into getting it to run properly with ndiswrapper, but couldn't get it going. it could see my network, but refused to connect. and i once again ran out of time to wangle it. back to xp.
wireless became my crux point. i told myself that if linux could run a wireless card successfully, then i'd be willing to let go of my substantial windows knowledge and become a novice again with linux.
winter came and passed and the time didn't make itself available. near the end of spring i decided to have another go. only this time i decided to use what sounded like a move proven route. i replaced my dell wireless card with the intel 2200.
and ubuntu dapper just grabbed it and plugged me into the network
now maybe that small manouvre would've solved my problem a while back, but to me it illustrates the great thing about free software... constant improvement.
good to my word, i promptly removed xp from my laptop's boot and stuffed it into a vmware machine. now my only problem is that my xp doesn't want to install on a non-dell bios!
otherwise, almost everything has been fantastic. i used easyubuntu to snag codecs and ati drivers. gnome recognized my laptop's extra buttons (volume, mute, power), but i had to play with lineakd to get the same in kde.
that was ~3-4 weeks ago and i've been linux mobile all the way!
I have dell D600 and Mandriva works there ok.
/usr/src/linux-kernel /win2000cdrom/setup target /home/myname/qemu/images/win2k_qemu.img -m 378
I am also running Windown 2000 SP4 with this laptop but instead of douple booting to it, I will just start the Windows
under Mandriva just like a normal apps by clicking a icon.
I use free QEMU 0.80 for this but for that I need to build it myself. If you want to go easy routem it should also be possible
to do the same with the wmvare.
After starting the windows, I can use Windows either in a small window or I can resize it to fullscreen mode by pressing ctrl+alt+f.
The only restriction I am aware is that with the QEMU the windows 2000 max size is 1280x1024 in full screen mode, while for
parts of the Linux desktop I can use 1400x1050 screensize. (But mandriva is able to switch ok between these resolutions when I press ctrl+alt+f). Windows2000 under qemu will not work ok with 3d games, but for running Word, powerpoint, 3d drawing apps, etc. it is fast enought. The boottime for win2000 is about 30sec-1 minute, so I do not know any difference compared to normal apps.
Here are the steps how I did it. (I do not remember exaxt commands, but you can find them easily from the qemu www page)
1) I downloaded my kernel sources from Mandriva (because I need to build the kqemu driver. Without it win2000 have some problems under qemu)
2) cd
3) install gcc3 in addition to gcc4 that is usually by default in the new linux distros because qemu needs to be build with qcc 3.
3) make
4) download qemu sources, extract them and enable gcc3 and kqemu driver for the build process
5) build qemu
6) make changes to build command to use gcc4
7) go to kqemu dir and build kqemu driver with gcc4 and install it.
8) load kqemu driver: modprobe kqemu major=0
9) I Created 10 giga file for the windows 2000 called "win2000.img". (Single command, I just do not remember what it was)
10) I put windows 2000 cd in told something like: qemu
11) After windos is installed to win2000.img, you can always start it by using command like this: (I reserve 378 mb mem for win2000)
qemu -hda
Thinkpads, although I modified mine to work as a scroller instead, I don't have a problem with left+right==middle. But yes, out of the box, Thinkpads have a real middle button that works.
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
I've got a HP NX8220 work laptop which I dual boot with Ubuntu. As far as I've noticed literally everything worked straight out of the install with Dapper - I even installed using Wifi. This includes sleeping and the additional buttons (mute etc.). I'd read the HP had been working with Ubuntu to make things work well with their laptops and my personal experience is very positive.
Andrew.
I'm running Ubuntu with XFCE on a Dell Inspiron 6000 with Ubuntu 5.10. From the start on, it mostly worked, except that the Intel Wireless Driver was flaky. After replacing them with current ipw2200 drivers, it works like a charm. The only remaining problem I still have, is that combined with beamers for presentations, the dual-screen setup doesn't seem to switch the VGA port to frequencies all beamers understand. In some situations I have to switch to beamer mode only.
This site http://rtr.ca/dell_i9300/ was a really big help.
For stuff I need to do on Windows (Juniper VPN) or badly behaved applications that redirect my network traffic (eg Cisco VPNclient) I'm using VMware. There the main problem I have is, that my Blackberry isn't able to communicate over the USB connection. That seems to be a generic problem with the way the Blackberry software handles USB-events at connection.
All in all, if you aren't afraid to recompile parts of the system, the Dell Inspiron laptops are quite useful under Linux, even if they're less stylish than IBM's or Apple's.
Make sure you have a Distro with the 2.6.16 Kernel, due to improved power management and suspend/hibernation.
It really depends on how much your time is worth to you. Linux on many modern laptops is fiddly and time-consuming and will often leave you with some non-functioning hardware (the SD card reader on my Acer 8104 doesn't work in Linux, the wireless cuts out with firmware errors under load, suspend to disk is very unreliable and the battery life is about 2/3 it is in Windows). If you can't spare a few days of tweaking, buy a ready-installed machine or stick with OS X.
Otherwise, I would generally recommend not buying the latest and greatest laptop unless you are absolutely sure it's supported, because the hardware support often takes a while to catch up
...which is running Fedora Core 5 (I've also still got windows on here because my girlfriend wouldn't let me get rid ouf it). You should be aware that Fedora is really bleeding edge - there have been a few problems. When I first installed it there were about 4 new kernels in 3 weeks, the final one couldn't start X and I wonder if they even tested it. After the 2107 nightmare (and me having to re-install due to my over zelous reaction, d'oh!) they seem to have settled down a little with the updates - it's been a few weeks and I'm still happily running the newest one. The Core 5 is still very new though, I think about 1 month, I've been told after about 2 then it will settle down and everything will be cool. For me I'd get on for the ride early; just keep your tin hat on and ride the last few waves.
Also, there is a really good community (I might just plug http://www.fedoraforum.org/...)
as for my laptop it's a toshiba satellite pro - fairly new but i don't know the number. I'm using the centrino chipset and although I've heard people get the wireless working it seemed like it might be a hastle so I've left it because I don't really use wireless anyway. Fedora doesn't support proprietry stuff though which means that you'll have to get MP3 support yourself (ogg works out the box!)... I might have convinced you not to go for it; it is really good though.
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
I have a Tecra M2 that works very well. There are decent drivers for everything. However I recently bought an HP and then found out that there are no drivers in the kernel for it. I went looking for them at different sources and eventually gave up. So most of the special buttons don't work, wifi and modem don't work, I can't adjust the screen brightness and due to ACPI problems KLaptop the power management program does not work. So it is barely useable.
sony vaio u101 (discontinued, import)
everything works out of the box(even rare
things like suspend and temp sensor) hardware
feels like it was meant to run linux,
including things like 3d accel, screen
brightness (better control than windows)
temp sensor, etc. this is my main laptop.
apple ibook g4 1.25ghz
also runs ubuntu, power management works,
but its not as nice. 3d does work. mostly
run it in os x for when i need a mac at
work, i like the u101 better.
fujitsu p2120
runs fine, couldnt suspend then, probably
can now. everything else works, but that
transmeta chip is slow...
thinkpad A21p ran ubuntu fine, everything worked.
compaq m700 everything worked out of the box in
debian, so ubuntu should be no prob.
the only things to watch out for are acpi (make sure
it can suspend if you care about that) and the wifi card,
unless you want to use a pc-card slot. ubuntu is
good about hardware support.
usually laptops are easier than desktops to run nix on
or at least look up. look up linux laptop sellers and
linux friendly ones ( http://powernotebooks.com/
http://www.emperorlinux.com/ etc) along with all the
sites dedicated to linux laptops. also good to check
bsd sites and see if anyone on #ubuntu is using / looking
at a laptop your interested in.
if you just need windows for a couple school apps,
you might want to use qemu or vmware(player and
server are free) qemus performance isnt bad with
virtualization, but you cant like watch movies
in it and stuff like with vmware. but anyway,
its pretty easy to manage a 3 gig win2k partition
and maybe a backup or two, or just run it in snap
shot mode with another virtual disk for data or
just using the included samba (both qemu and
vmware have this) on a host only network so
windows doesnt get exposed at all.
VFAT is the FAT filesystem driver and a standard part of the GNU tools that most Linuces come with -- FC3 has the support to read and write my FAT32 drives, so I'm sure it'll be there in FC5.
The original poster said he'd be using Ubuntu, and nobody appears to have suggested HP notebook, although there is official support for some models from Canonical, with "almost 100%" of the hardware working out of the box. Does anyone know if any of the new models with "Core Duo" CPUs are announced to get similar support?
The Fujitsu Siemens Amilo Pro V2030 has a version that comes with Linux (Knoppix 4). And it thus is extremely cheap because it lacks the MS WinXP Tax. Here in germany it's only 499 Euros - it should be the same in dollars over in the US.
If you want feature richness I'd suggest getting a ThinkPad. I don't know if lenovo is screwing around, but IBM has been supporting Linux on their Laptops for quite some time now. And the hardware and service is good.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Heat is the main issue though. Every distro apart from Slackware maxes out my CPU temperature at 70+ degrees. Only Windows and Slackware manage not to, for some reason. So heads up - be aware that you might have to try a few distros (not necessarily Slack)
If you're serious about having a laptop that is 100% supported by Linux (And as a side-effect Solaris 8+), get a tadpole. They range from ultra-portables to mobile workstations. To put it simply. They are the cats ass of laptops.
If you want a x86 based box.. Sager NP 5950 is 100% supported by Gentoo (With the exception of the built in camera (I've never bothered trying to get it working)). The wireless madwifi-ng card works, the SLI graphic system works, Modular X 7 had no trouble automatically configuring the screen. It suspends well, and comes back afterwards. (So far at least.) The 7 in 1 smart card/memory cards worked. It's powered by the ML-44 Turion so it has power to spare, but is still easy on the battery. The only downside is since it has a 19" widescreen, it's fricken huge, and weighs in at a svelte 14lbs(or maybe it's 19lbs.. I didn't really care.).
The new Turion X2 laptops will give you a nice 64-bit dualcore CPU and it looks like many will be offering nVidia chipsets and GPUs that ought to be Linux-friendly. They'll be buyable in June, possibly sooner. HP has already announced their 14" widescreen (GeForce 6150 integrated GPU, the best shared memory GPU out there at the moment) for shipment in June. MSI, ASUS, and assorted others have machines coming soon. Price looks to be only slightly more than singlecore models. I'm holding out for a 17" model with at least a GeForce 7600, haven't seen one announced yet.
If you're going to do the VMWare thing, dualcores are nice.
The only change I made since I got the machine was to upgrade the memory to 512MB.
...richie - It is a good day to code.
I may be completely wrong here, because my newest laptop is from around 1998, but I don't really think that a brand-new machine should pose much of a problem for Linux. I've got a couple laptops, both running Linux, and most of the difficult setup work was mostly because of older ISA sound cards (probably nonexistent in modern machines).
Few quick tips from someone who's been there, done that:
You may want to try a few LiveCD's out on your machine; some distributions may work better than others – I recommend Ultima Linux, mostly because it's my distro, but others are good too. May also be worth checking out EmperorLinux, they sell laptops pre-loaded with Linux so they're practically guaranteed to work.
Personally, I think the hardest thing with new machines isn't the software, it's just re-adjusting to where everything is. I tend to like having the CD drive on the front, one of the "full-size"-ish keyboards that keeps that little block above the arrow keys intact, and the PCMCIA slot on the left hand side, but maybe that's just me.
Hope you find a machine you like :-)
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
(1) ACPI
Laptop ACPI tables are the buggiest seen. It's quite common that the laptop designers have used the Microsoft com[iler which has let a whole slew of things which should have been syntax errors get through. Because the Microsoft interpretor is as lax as the compiler Windows will work with it but Linux will often barf on it. This can be anywhere from a mere annoyance to making power management or hardwre operation difficult/buggy/broken.
(2) WiFi
MiniPCI cards, even with the same chipset, may not work with the same driver. If you have a chipset which works under ndiswrapper make sure that you use the Windows driver which comes with your machine and not a generic one.
(3) Power management
It pretty likely that the Linux suspend/resume to disk or memory won't work. Again, the manufacturers play fast and loose and only test to see if it works the Windows way and not the correct way.
(4) The big manufacturers don't care about Linux
If you give bug reports about their hardware they'll just laugh and tell you that it works with Windows.
Linux on a laptop will generally work as long as you don't mind missing out on a few things, such as suspend to disk or memory etc.
If I were you and wanted a *nix for the road I'd not choose Linux I'd go for a MacBook as the OS and hardware are well integrated... oh and most Linux distributions' WiFi administration is a pain to use (unless you like hacking text files for each hotspot).
Agrajag: "Oh no, not again!"
I came across a used Compaq Evo and successfully installed Mandriva LE 2006 on it as my primary laptop. I agree with your assessment of linux for desktop use and would have it no other way. Check what wireless card you plan to use - be sure it is supported in your distro. Quite a few sites have good wireless on linux information so just be aware and check.
...
I use it primarily for Internet and documents (open office) and use wireless hotspots most anywhere without worry of all the nasty windoze exploits. In short, I love it.
Now for the bad news
I have tried linux on a wide variety of laptops without success. Unless you KNOW the built-in wireless will work, avoid built-ins and get a card that works. Sound is annoyingly unsupported in some laptops, and forget about using the modem. My Evo does have a lucent winmodem with Linux support but I am not inclined to deal with the driver because I have a better solution anyway.
Instead, if you need a modem, I would recommend that you get a modem-router such as this one
because you get a hardware firewall and a general modem usable with lots of systems.
So, my advice is to be very selective when you choose the laptop for linux, know what you are getting into, and if you get it right, you are in Nirvana.
I saw a ThinkPad x60 at LinuxWorld Canada a few weeks back. Working with Lenovo, a [Waterloo-based?] company has released free [beer or speech, not sure] drivers for the few bits that didn't already have drivers, such as the fingerprint reader.
So that's a sweet laptop, just over 3lb, good battery life, and Linux drivers for everything. (I want one!!).
System 76 sells Laptops with Ubuntu pre-installed. Words cannot describe the positive experinces I have had with this company. The prices are reasonable, the hardware excellent, the technical support a dream.
http://www.system76.com/
Given that the original author wants to run Linux as his primary OS, it makes more sense to run Linux as the host, and run an XP image.
Whilst Ralink & prism54 cards work great under Linux, the madwifi drivers for Atheros are not bad at all. They are under really heavy development at the moment, so I do expect some glitches - I found that one version of the CVS snapshot worked perfectly for me, whilst the next week's failed completely - but madwifi has some killer features which are quite a bonus if you can use them. I guess it's the open-drivers & these features that made PC Engines choose atheros cards as standard options for their embedded PC boards which they pitch as a "Wireless Router Application Platform".
Specifically with madwifi-ng you can use an Atheros card in master mode, have your PC as a base-station, and you can have multiple virtual access-points (VAPs), each assigned a different interface. Thus you can have trusted clients connecting via WEP to one VAP and allow open-access for unencrypted access to another VAP (using a single wireless card), but firewall the second VAP using iptables so that clients using it can only access the internet and not the LAN. Finally, madwifi also supports 802.11a as well as b&g with appropriate hardware (and there are a few cards out there that do a/b/g); I guess that not many people need this feature, but I can see it would be useful if there's a lot of b/g/cordless-phone interference in your area &/or if you just want a point-to-point link for connecting two office LANs and you'd prefer it to be a little off the radar.
Ralink's rt2500 might be a better chipset for someone who is coming from Windows and who just wants to install Ubuntu, but I wish I could get more of the Atheros cards (at the right price). If you're prepared to compile your own drivers & tinker a little bit to get it working then Atheros is surely the best wireless chipset for Linux available right now.
Ned.
Wireless network cards - GUARANTEED 100% Linux Compatible!
I have a one year old Acer laptop running Ubuntu.
I know everyone won't have had the same results as me, but the laptop was dirt cheap and has ran great - and Ubuntu works very well on it.
Initially a couple things weren't working so hot - but every major Ubuntu release has fixed at least one problem.
I've got the 2200 wireless chipset and the integrated intel video (915 I think).
Suspend to RAM, wireless, video modes (including 1280x800!), smart battery, hot keys - just about everything works perfectly.
To be totally honest, I haven't tried the pcmcia slot, the memory card reader, the firewire, or suspend to disk yet, so I can't say if they work well, or at all.
At this point, I think the only problem I have left is that the led for the wireless doesn't light up in linux, so I can't visually tell if it's on or off.
Are you after the fanboi of the year award?
Granted I'm using the latest Dapper build...
But it works great with the newer Intel WiFi stuff, as well as Atheros for me. Hell, I even have it on my WPA network!
There is an easy solution. ONLY USE CENTRINO. If it has Intel PRO wireless as an option then get it. For an extra $20 you guarantee your ability to surf 802.11a/b/g with open source drivers.
Only "hitch" is that getting WPA to work in Linux requires WPA supplicant and that isn't very well integrated into any distros that I have seen so far. Requires a little guru knowledge but works after the initial setup hardship.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I don't know if they're still doing it, but both my HP Athlon XP Mobile based laptop and my fiancé's HP laptop with a P4 have useless ethernet ports. Her's was completely dead within a year of purchase. Mine works on half of the networks I try, but it fails spectacularly when it comes to dealing with Westell routers and a handful of other types of equipment. Also, when connecting it to unflashed Linksys routers, I find myself needing to set it to 10baseT, half-duplex with a static IP to get anything to work.
Also, Broadcomm chipset wifi cards aren't very impressive either.
I've never had anywhere near this level of difficulty with any other brand of network card. Either steer well clear of anything with such a card or be prepared to buy a PCMCIA 8139 card, something common as mud that'll work everywhere.
Also, keep in mind that ATI drivers still kinda suck for Linux, compared with nVidia, if you're going to do anything glx intensive. If you're just doing 2d work, the Intel/SiS/Trident stuff might be better supported than ATI, but I'm not sure. Anyone else know? What's sold today that works reasonably well without binary drivers?
In general, you want to avoid laptops with IGP graphics, particularly those with ATI IGPs. Support is better for them now than it was a couple of years ago, though.
I just recently bought a $200 sotec laptop from a pawnshop and its my first laptop to date. I originally put windows xp on it and followed by putting arch linux on it. After a week of use with both operating systems side by side, i stuck with windows because it was just so much more usable on a laptop. It gave the experience when everything just worked. In fact everything was peachy for a couple of weeks... till it started acting kindof suspicious, i'm guessing it got a virus from the performance hit it took. At any rate, it prompted me to continue looking for a distro to dual boot with that would be usable. After a bit of searching i went ahead and tried out this kubuntu live cd from "flight 7" http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/dapper/ flight-7/
I had previously tried ubuntu on my desktop but was disappointed with its performance when compared to arch linux. However, kubuntu proved to be excellent on a laptop. Similar to windows, everything just works. The atheros-based belkin card I had worked out of the box once i ran the included wireless assistant to configure the connection.
The new live cd has an install program called ubiquity that installs kubuntu even while you are using it as a live cd... similar to dsl's installer i guess. Its ntfs resizing isn't too painful either.
One of my only complaints about linux on this particular laptop is that its not quite as peppy as it is under windows, and im suspecting that its the display drivers fault.. the sis 630 integrated gfx card doesnt work well with glx extensions contrary to what glx_gears says.
Just give (k)ubuntu a shot, i think you will be plesantly surprised, i was.
While people might have their reservations about this for non-technical reasons, I am on my third IBM (now Lenovo) Thinkpad, and have never had one that wasn't 99.99% Linux compatible. IBM has been one of the few manufacturers who have instructions for installing Linux on their notebooks on their official support website.
Thinkpads are really cheap these days, and something like the R52, which is a slightly older, lower-end model, or the T series, are all excellent Linux machines.
You aren't remembered for doing what is expected of you
If you want to work, and be productive... stick with your first instinct, buy a MacBook. MacOS X is fast, stable, and reliable, plus any applications you will need are available for it, and any open source apps you may want are also available for it. Also, all your hardware will work out of the box. No fighting with [insert hardware name/type here] trying to get it to work. Your power management will work, no tweaking. In other words, you'll get work done instead of tinkering with your system.
If you want to tinker, get a windows box and put Ubuntu on it. Yes Ubuntu works great "out of the box." I run Ubuntu on my server and dual boot it on my Toshiba laptop and homebuilt desktop. Wonderful system, solves most of the Debian problems, but I find myself tinkering with it instead of doing work on it.
If you want the best of all worlds... buy the MacBook and triple boot it. You're getting a great laptop, you get the stability and reliability of MacOS X, it'll run windows, and if you really want Ubuntu, install Ubuntu on it as well.
ATI's sub-par on at least the Express 200m in 64-bit applications, because the drivers don't work right, forcing you to use UMA.
And if you're using UMA, I don't buy your performance claims- it's just not possible with UMA, system RAM's too slow compared to the on-board offerings, and it's pathway is contended with by everything else in the system. You'll get about half the peak speed at best.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Then try damn small linux. It can be run from CD, USB drive or within Windows, save home directories to a usb drive and be presistent between boots. It's a good bridge between booting a livecd and installing a full dual-boot Linux system.
Check out Ubuntu's LaptopTestingTeam page on their wiki. Not everything has been tested, but they are actively seeking feedback.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Typing this on just such a machine.
Everything works out of the box, it's small and cute, and as an older model you could probably afford to throw 1Gb of RAM at it - I've got 384Mb and it's fine for day to day stuff. WLAN working a treat.
I used a media slice (optional extra) to install, but I'm sure a bit of imagination could get around this - LAN or maybe USB CD drives work for Ubuntu install?
Strong, Light, Cheap - pick two.
Sorry. I just remembered not being able to read the Windows partition. If I had really thought about it, I would have recalled using NTFS.
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
The following list is components which do NOT work on the MacBook pro on linux, in order of severity:
1. Internal speakers (note that the sound card DOES work; I expect this to be resolved shortly).
2. Bluetooth module.
3. iSight USB.
Sleep/suspend works great. All the ports work great. CPU throttling works great. OpenGL works great.
As soon as the problem with internal speakers output is resolved, I'll heartly recommend the MacBook Pro for all linux users.
Furthermore, I expect distributors to focus on the MacBook Pro. Think about it; Apple hardware gives linux distributors a standards-based platform without the kludgy legacy crap that's easy to aim at. Even the BIOS compatibility module is a reference implementation, which probably explains the ease in getting suspend support and the like to work. Also, Apple hardware is high profile, and with a MacBook Pro triboot you can run every piece of software under the sun on one, high powered, sleek notebook.
*shrug* I dig it, anyways.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
One note about EmperorLinux, they're not that cheap. Their cheapest model is over $1100. However I have heard good things about them, so they might be worth the price.
You'll find a great resource for this info on the Notebookforums.com site. Personally, I run FC4 on a Sager 5520 and love it, but here in my office we've got folks on Ubuntu, Gentoo, DSLinux, etc. The suggestions about drivers are important, but it's an academic matter and easily resolved most of the time.
Good luck.
...if I wanted to read garbage like that, I'd go to \.
I bought a T-42p from EmperorLinux last fall with Ubuntu Breezy installed. Some things worked pretty well, like the wireless, but they didn't have a 3D driver for the ATI Fire GL card that supports suspend and hibernate. I have to reboot my machine everytime I need 3D hardware accelaration or use the non 3D accelarated driver.
Some things that came broken:
They have a 30-day money back garantee, so I suggest you try everything out right away. If something doesn't work you should ship it back, because it isn't likely that it will get fixed remotely unless you bug them to death.
After months of fiddling I almost have everything working as I want, but I shouldn't have to spend this much time when I paid a premium for Emperor to do it for me. If I had the opportunity to do it again, I would have waited for the MacBook Pro. It would have been a lot cheaper in terms of support and my time.
Kubuntu breezy badger installed flawlessly on a Lenovo R51 for me back in March. The only thing that didn't work right out of the box was the LoseModem, and I found drivers that worked for that even though I hadda pay.
Great Stuff.
Not a web designer.
I have a D610, it is small and light, and every single piece of hardware on the thing worked out of the box with Ubuntu, including USB, bluetooth, WiFi, and 3D.
I also have a D800 for work. From my experience Dell laptop hardware is very Linux-friendly.
It sounds like you've got your system worked out the way you want, but you may want to look into a little app called SideTrack anyway. It's a replacement trackpad driver and config utility that lets you make all manner of customizations for your PB's trackpad, including defining scroll areas (horizontal and/or vertical), right button functionality, and setting the corners as hotkeys for Expose functions (or just about anything else you want to use them for).
Boundless Expansion, Self-Transformation, Dynamic Optimism, Intelligent Technology, Spontaneous Order- BEST DO IT SO!
--Video Card - I strongly recommend Nvidia. I realize that's more challenging in a laptop, but their drivers and support are much better.
--Wireless Capability - Personally, I PCMCIA wireless over built-in, but in any case make sure the wireless chipset is well supported. I use a proxim card which worked with next to no effort.
--Sound Card - While I seriously doubt you could find a laptop sound card that isn't supported, it's still worth a look. Nothing makes me frown faster than a lack of tunes. --Network Card - Well, maybe no network access could make me frown faster. Linux supports a large variety of NICs, but be on the lookout for Broadcom based cards. If it's a 3com, Intel, or Realtek chipset, you're almost certainly a winner.
If you make good decisions on those, your shiny new laptop should work very well. As far as dual-booting goes, I just have one major caution: install Windows first. Why? Because many Linux partitioning programs pay no attention to cylinder boundaries. Windows will then freak out and "fix" the error by moving your partitions to the nearest boundary. Fixing this is not fun.
Disclaimer: I am not a linux expert. However, I know alot about mac hardware...
I ran SuSE as dual boot on a pismo, which lasted, maybe, three weeks: lack of drivers were a problem. I hear this echoed with graphics and wi-fi hardware a lot also.
I love the Mac (before the MacIntel debacle... call me insane but I think Intel chips should be put down like dogs), but I wouldn't trust bootstrap with any internal hard drive storing valuable information... I'd put it all on an HFS+ external volume.
My sister's boyfriend is a graphics guy and just goes on and on about how great it is that Macs dual boot Windoze now, etc. etc., how he'll never have any problems... I don't believe that Windows/ OS X/ Intel/ blah blah blah are all sooooo portable that this is gonna be a smooth trip.
I would say run linux on an x86 class chip, and OS X on your mac hardware... whether you stay with Power PCs or go MacBook
As identity0 pointed out in an adjacent post, Ralink released their own drivers for this chipset under the GPL, although I believe this has been thoroughly re-worked for the current community releases. This driver is shipped by a lot of distros now, and cards using it will probably be detected at install time by Suse, Ubuntu, Mandrake & Fedora Core. I find it very stable.
Ned.
Wireless network cards - GUARANTEED 100% Linux Compatible!
I just recently bought a 12" ibook. I'm not saying you should, but the battery life is awesome at 4.5 hours, and the thing is very light compared to my previous laptop (Toshiba, 8lbs, 3 hour battery with Linux kernel 2.4, 2 1/2 hour battery with WIndows). I've been using Linux almost exclusively since Fall 2000, but after installing Fink and loads of other free software, I realized something that surprised me-- it's not Linux that I liked using-- it's the free software: GNU Screen, Vim, TeTeX, RCS, ... Using Openbox on my Linux computer is more flexible and comfortable than OS X, for sure, but when I'm on the road, having a small light laptop with good battery life is awesome compared to the laptop I used to have. When I use Windows, I get that "this thing is so useless" feeling, but not at all with OS X-- it really is a big improvement over Windows with the Bash, Screen, and all the other free software Apple was very apt to install.
I've been running it since Warty Warthog release and it picks up all the hardware and performed nice clean upgrades to Breezy.
... under warranty (those Sonys were junk - a lot of complaints). Oh yeah, ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 with 128MB also included, not to mention the best inbuilt speakers I've yet heard on a laptop.
I dual boot it with WindowsXP pro.
I got a great spec machine through Dell Outlet in Ireland EUR 1150 (no doubt you'd get it cheaper in the USA, but the same machine was retailing here for ~EUR 2500 at the time of my purchase) for a 1920x1200 panel, 1GB of memory, 60GB 7200 RPM HDD and a Sony DVDR/RW that was replaced for a NEC DVDR/RW +/-
At that price you can get one for each type of install you want, although it might get a bit heavy on business trips.
Good luck
Go ahead and buy one
I just (this week) purchased a Toshiba Satellite from Wal*Mart -- model A55-S1064. I installed Kubuntu on it (Dapper Drake, Flight 7) and it detected everything out-of-the box without any problems or hassle.
/proc on the system -- but I highly recommend it for general purpose use, especially with Kubuntu because it got everything right the first time, and I did not have to do any manual configuration on the hardware at *all*.
Essentially, out of the box, Kubuntu supports the WiFi card, the video hardware (with 3D acceleration), the network, sound, and so forth. The HDD is SATA, and the system is wonderful. It's not going to break the bank, and it works wonderfully well. I haven't tried Ubuntu on it -- just the Kubuntu distribution -- but since they share the same base, I would make the assumption that they should work just fine. To be honest, Kubuntu supports this laptop better then it supports the hardware that was in my desktop workstation -- I was quite surprised when I found that out.
The A55-S1064 has 512 MB of RAM, 16 MB of which are shared with the video board. It comes with a CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive, and has a 1.6 GHz Intel Celeron M. For a Celeron, it's not bad.
Feel free to get in touch with me if you want the details from
Interesting -- I had no idea that any wireless-card vendor had actually written Linux drivers and GPLed them. At least recently.
I'm definitely going to be bumping Ralink to the top of my list next time I'm interested in getting hardware, just for that. I sprung for a crappy Best Buy PCI wireless card a few months ago, and ndiswrappers has caused me nothing but pain. Plus, the attitude of the vendors (Netgear and Linksys are both bad) where they use undocumented chipsets, and then change the chipsets seemingly at random, with only subtle clues to mark the difference, just make me feel dirty for giving them my money.
It's nice to know there's a company out there I can buy something from without feeling like I'm supporting the business practices I hate most.
Pity Debian doesn't give Ralink the treatment they deserve; you're right, Ralink should get some applause (although not too much -- let's not forget they did what we'd like to see everyone doing, not something that should be exceptional). I guess nobody has ever accused Debian of moving too quickly, though. Seven months for Debian is barely enough time to start mulling the issue over.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I bought the Acer just before Christmas 2005. AMD Turion-64 processor, 100 GB drive partitioned to two 50's, 512 MB DDR (two 256MB SODIMMS), 15.4 screen, modem, 100BT, b/g wireless. Had XP home preinstalled (of course). $799 on sale (not rebate). I installed Mandriva 64 bit on the second partition. Everything worked with Mandriva right off the bat except modem and wireless. The b/g wireless I found a driver for by a google search. For the modem I downloaded the files but haven't installed them yet because I haven't needed it. And I can always boot over into XP if they don't work, so I just didn't bother finishing that. On the down side, it uses shared DDR for the video, but I really don't do serious gaming, and I also upgraded later to two 512MB SODIMMS, for 1GB total, and so no worries. I REALLY like this laptop, have had no problems with it (knock on wood) and good battery life...
i am running a dualboot winxp home/ ubuntu64 on my laptop currently. i keep my windows partition for one reason only: games (i mean, i have a mobile amd64 4000+ and dedicated 256mb radeon x600, 1gb of ram too). Ubuntu is amazing. I at first had Gentoo on it, but i couldnt get X11 to work properly, but when i wiped it and installed ubuntu, it ran perfectly. Wireless will forever be an issue, but luckily not on my system anymore. I have the broadcom airforce wifi card, and once i got the drivers (from a pal who helped me install gentoo, over the course of 6 hours >) i was set. Ubuntu, unlike Gentoo, was a quick easy install, and i am thouroughly happy. Thats my 2 cents. Oh, my laptop is a gateway mx7515, for refrence.