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Understanding OS X Kernel Internals

jglidell writes "The OS X kernel has been in the news alot this past year, whether it's why its slow, Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad, it's going closed source and what not. Amit Singh has put up a new presentation on the innards of OS X. It does a pretty good job of summing up the OS X kernel architecture, and has some pretty detailed diagrams... for instance they show that there are so many process/threads layers in OS X. So if you are in the mood for doing some OS studying then head over."

199 comments

  1. Spelling by atkulp · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Grrr... "alot" isn't a word! It's "a lot."

    The spelling police are on their way!

    1. Re:Spelling by dhasenan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not to mention fonts. I can never forgive anyone for using Comic Sans in a presentation.

    2. Re:Spelling by mangu · · Score: 5, Funny
      "alot" isn't a word! It's "a lot."


      I also get kinda pissed off because lotsa people write it that way.

    3. Re:Spelling by sammykrupa · · Score: 0

      "Alot" is a word! It means to "alot" something. Like if I was to "alot" all my money somewhere.

    4. Re:Spelling by Cannelloni · · Score: 1

      But at least got kernal right. ;)

      --
      Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
    5. Re:Spelling by Vishal · · Score: 1

      Comic Sans is a very clean font and works very well for presentations.

    6. Re:Spelling by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Alot of what youre saying makes good sense.

      --
      If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
    7. Re:Spelling by Crizp · · Score: 1

      Since it's Mac-related, are you sure it's not Chalkboard or what they call it? Pretty similar to Comic Sans but designed as an actual typeface.

      I don't have Flash here though, so if I'm very wrong please ignore me.

    8. Re:Spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's "allot" you dozy fucker.

    9. Re:Spelling by jaylene_slide · · Score: 1


      C'est "allot", monsieur.

      --
      "Your proactive bipartisan synergy is indemnifying. Good work, carry on."
    10. Re:Spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      allot? not in this case. use your dictionary

    11. Re:Spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wrong. get back to class little one.

    12. Re:Spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alot?

      ALOT?

      Not feelin ya, broheem.

    13. Re:Spelling by silic0n · · Score: 1

      He used Comic Sans? And to think I was going to actually read the article!

    14. Re:Spelling by TeXMaster · · Score: 1

      Actually, "a lot" is not a word either, it's two words.

      --
      "I'm never quite so stupid as when I'm being smart" (Linus van Pelt)
    15. Re:Spelling by psmears · · Score: 1
      allot? not in this case. use your dictionary

      OK, I did, and here's what it says...

    16. Re:Spelling by decepty · · Score: 1

      Yes, it pisses me off alot to.

      --
      Be careful! Bears shouldn't consume large furry dogs.
    17. Re:Spelling by Smurf · · Score: 1
      I also get kinda pissed off because lotsa people write it that way.

      Cool! I get to be the Spelling Police today!

      From the New Oxford American Dictionary, 2nd Edition. (It's included with Tiger).

      kinda |?ka?nd?| (informal) contraction of kind of : I think it's kinda funny. ORIGIN early 20th cent.(originally U.S.): alteration.

      lotta |?l?d?| (also lotsa ) (informal) contraction of lots of (representing nonstandard use) : I saw a lotta courage out there, and a lotta hard work.

      alot: No entries found. Did you mean? ....


      So although kinda and lotsa are awful words, they somehow managed to be considered less incorrect that alot.
    18. Re:Spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, it's clearly a sans-serif font, but it doesn't look at all like Comic Sans to me.

    19. Re:Spelling by Ford+Fulkerson · · Score: 1

      A lot is two words
      Fetch me my giant laser.

      --

      Somewhere in the heavens... they are waiting.
    20. Re:Spelling by chrish · · Score: 1

      Seriously, how can you flame Comic Sans without including a link to Ban Comic Sans?

      --
      - chrish
    21. Re:Spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "A lot" is a word, just like the word "many," but spelled as if it consists of two. So, is "good bye" (also spelled "goodbye") one word, two words, or four? (etymologically: "god be with ye")

  2. huh? by Aussie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    whether it's why its slow

    What the hell does that mean ? Editors drunk ?

    1. Re:huh? by Bromskloss · · Score: 1

      He probably means that you should select one of "whether it's" and "why it's" and by that way arrive at "whether it's slow" or "why it's slow", respectively.

      --
      Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
    2. Re:huh? by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

      Parse it out:

      The OS X kernel has been in the news alot this past year, whether it's:
      -why its slow,
      -Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad,
      -it's going closed source
      -and what not

      make sense now?

      The sentence sucked, but it made sense in a bad grammar sort of way.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    3. Re:huh? by Ant+P. · · Score: 2, Informative

      It might make more sense in this format, and without the grammar error:

      ...in the news alot this past year, whether it's:

      • why it's slow,
      • Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad,
      • it's going closed source
      • and what not
    4. Re:huh? by Gulthek · · Score: 1

      He means editors as in slashdot editors. As in plural slashdot editors who should review these story submissions before sending them to the front page.

    5. Re:huh? by jaysones · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Alot" isn't even an actual word.

    6. Re:huh? by yuktar · · Score: 1

      No, I'm still not sure what an "alot" is.

    7. Re:huh? by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      Actually, the apostrophe in this case would be a contraction of "editor is." Possession is easily dismissed as a possibility since it's (see, there's that 'is' again) senseless.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    8. Re:huh? by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1
      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    9. Re:huh? by Eq+7-2521 · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I stopped reading the summary as soon as I hit that word.

      --
      At my age I find coming up with a witty signature too exhausting.
    10. Re:huh? by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 3, Funny

      Nope, it's still gibberish.

      whether it's why it's slow

      Well... why is it slow?

      Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad

      Debating the pros and cons of Mach is a valid topic, but a phrase like this is so vague that it's meaningless.

      it's going closed source

      OK, that one's intelligible. But then we come across gems like this:

      for instance they show that there are so many process/threads layers in OS X.

      A small request for submitters: Take a minute to actually proof-read your summary. I'm not even talking about simple typos, or the correct use of "you're/your" - those look ugly, but most of the time people can still figure out what you meant. Just ask yourself: will these words make sense to a moderately intelligent English speaker who's not on a meth bender?

    11. Re:huh? by m50d · · Score: 1

      Whether the news story is about why it's slow, or so on. You fail reading.

      --
      I am trolling
  3. Needs more editor. by dajobi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "alot"
    "whether it's why its slow"
    "they show that there are so many process/threads layers in OS X."

    Do the editors even look at submissions any more? Or to put it another way, is our children learning yet?

    1. Re:Needs more editor. by OECD · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do the editors even look at submissions any more?

      I'm afraid they do. I think the problem is that they're not as skilled in writing english as they are in writing PERL. (That's not a slam, by the way. I suck at PERL.)

      And before anyone goes on an "Off Topic" jag, it really does make a difference if the readers can understand what's being written. I stumbled over the "that there are so many" sentence a couple times trying to make sense of it. There are so many process threads layers in OS X that what? It slows it down? It's hard to program? Or is there simply a gee-whizz lot?

      Yeah, I know, I'm off to R the FA. I just wish I had a better idea of what's in there.

      --
      One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
    2. Re:Needs more editor. by the_humeister · · Score: 1

      Me fail English? That's unpossible!

    3. Re:Needs more editor. by samkass · · Score: 1

      "whether it's why its slow"

      This one is actually grammatical, just awkward. "whether it is why MacOS X's kernel is slow, or ..."

      --
      E pluribus unum
    4. Re:Needs more editor. by bariswheel · · Score: 0

      JESUS enough already...! How about talking about the article now?

      --
      Insinct is stronger than Upbringing - Irish Proverb
    5. Re:Needs more editor. by gowen · · Score: 5, Funny
      I think the problem is that they're not as skilled in writing english as they are in writing PERL.
      I've seen slashcode.

      I think the problem is that they're exactly as skilled in writing english as they are in writing PERL.
      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    6. Re:Needs more editor. by glas_gow · · Score: 1

      Surely, it's whether the kernel is the reason why OS X is slow, or whether OS X is slow for some other implied but undefined reason (something outwith the scope of the article; which is, after all, about the kernel). Hence the apostrophised "it's" (specifically, the kernel) followed by plain old "its" (generally speaking, OS X).

    7. Re:Needs more editor. by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      That's not a slam, by the way. I suck at PERL.You speak of this as if it's a bad thing...

      --
      That is all.
    8. Re:Needs more editor. by IANAAC · · Score: 1
      Do the editors even look at submissions any more? I'm afraid they do. I think the problem is that they're not as skilled in writing english as they are in writing PERL.

      Then maybe the good folks OSTG should consider hiring people appropriate for the jobs they're supposed to do.

      Honestly, I suck at PERL as well - I would never consider writing something in it, put it up for all to see and not expect to get torn to shreds by people who actually do know PERL, especially if I were getting paid to do so.

    9. Re:Needs more editor. by milimetric · · Score: 1

      actually, you know what's really interesting? That "whether it's why its slow" thing he's got in there is gramatically correct!!!

      It makes no sense to me because the sentence peters off, but it's the correct usage of it's and its. That sentence needs to be seriously reconstructed but the first two uses of it's and its in it are correct. The third one "it's going closed source" should be "its going closed source". But 2/3 is amazing for a slashdot post.

    10. Re:Needs more editor. by Dolda2000 · · Score: 1
      it really does make a difference if the readers can understand what's being written.
      Ramen to that. Of course, it doesn't just apply to the editors here on Slashdot, but to many posters as well (needless to say, though, the editors should be expected to know better English than the posters). I don't know if it's just me, but it has definitely made me enter a different reading mode when reading on Slashdot than on most sites out there, where I just scan for keywords in each sentence, rather than looking at the precise sentence construction. Needless to say, one potentially misses a lot of information this way, but it's a hopeless quest to try to read Slashdot precisely without stumbling a minute on every other sentence.
    11. Re:Needs more editor. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's Perl NOT PERL.....

  4. Where are good internal docs? by thogard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have a small program that mmaps a bit of code and then points the program counter at it. Everything runs fun until a OS call happens. I've heard that Mach allows user land programs to install their own OS calls but I haven't seen any example code to do it and I suspect such a feature isn't in OS X. I've hunted through the source and I while I could write my own system call and compile it in, there should be an easier way. Can anyone point me in the correct direction?

    1. Re:Where are good internal docs? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the sort of thing a virus writer might want to do to me.

      Oh by the way, how many viruses are there on OSX?

    2. Re:Where are good internal docs? by CableModemSniper · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know if this what you are looking for, but: http://rentzsch.com/mach_inject/

      --
      Why not fork?
    3. Re:Where are good internal docs? by thogard · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that link. It wasn't quite what I was looking for but it linked to some very interesting things that may lead me in the right direction.

    4. Re:Where are good internal docs? by VAXcat · · Score: 1

      reasoning by analogy from the VMS world, things like this usually get tripped up by instruction caches, and virtual memory translation buffering...if you're gonna copy code around and then try to execute it, you may have to do something to invalidate these assorted caches, especially when a context switch occurs.

      --
      There is no God, and Dirac is his prophet.
    5. Re:Where are good internal docs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh heh there's that "proof of concept virus" which claims to be an mp3 that executes code. Turns out it's an application with an mp3's icon.
      What would you do if you ran across foo.mp3.app?

  5. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 1

    *snort*

    Not bad! I think for extra points you should have bought up speculation that Apple closed the OS X kernel to ease the future transition to the Vista kernel.

    And of course, no modern anti-apple troll should be complete without reference to Apple's 'betrayel' of PA semi

    --
    There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
  6. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Fordiman · · Score: 3, Informative

    "OS virtualization is going to kill off the native OS X software market"

    Ahh, and welcome back to another thrilling episode of "doesn't know what the fuck they're on about" theatre!

    Honestly. OSV is SLOW compared to native. No one wants slow.

    --
    110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
  7. Terrible summary. by IANAAC · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I could barely get through the summary.

    If English is a second language for the submitter, fine. But good grief, do you suppose one of the PAID editors could have done just a bit of work to make the summary more readable?

    1. Re:Terrible summary. by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      '' If English is a second language for the submitter, fine. ''

      Very unlikely. Look at the choice of words, things like "innards", "head over". This is written by someone who knows the language very well, but is simply too uneducated or too lazy to learn how to write correctly.

      People who learned English as their second language very rarely use _bad_ English. They may have limited vocabulary, and you may spot typical mistakes that may even let you identify where someone comes from, but they won't get "their", "there" and "they're" wrong, and they won't get "a lot" wrong. If someone has English as a second language and can write like this, then they can do it without stupid mistakes.

  8. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 0

    Honestly. OSV is SLOW compared to native. No one wants slow.

    Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt!

    Incorrect. Anyone who's ever run os x in a vmware window will tell you that it's quite snappy (maybe 90% of normal system speed). And that's without any vendor support.

    --
    There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
  9. Re:The average person by specific · · Score: 0, Insightful

    This isn't news for the average person. This is isn't always news either. What's the problem?

    --
    If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it.
  10. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Hitchcock_Blonde · · Score: 0

    Uh...yeah, whatever.

    --
    Karma Schmarma
  11. Re:The average person by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sounds like someone is a little bitter for being critical of OS X. GET OVER IT.

  12. "OS X is slow" claims investigated by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 5, Informative

    Before anyone starts spouting off again about Mac OS X being "slow by design" or somesuch, read this article by an Apple engineer that investigates those claims.

    1. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and make sure you read the comments at the bottom of that page. It shows how the author completely misses the criticism that he is trying to address and fails miserably in his arguments. It also shows how Apple fanboys applaud the author's explaination, even though they haven't a clue about the subject matter - and even admit it in their posts.

    2. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It addresses one micro issue having to do with malloc. Not the whole "Macs are slow because of Mach I/O" issue.

    3. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It shows how the author completely misses the criticism that he is trying to address and fails miserably in his arguments.

      It does nothing of the kind. Read the whole article, and ALL of the comments, sparky, not just the ones that support your prejudice.

      Peter's point is that the "benchmark" in question boils down to how quickly OSX will malloc and free 35KB blocks. It happens to cross the mmap() threshold for kernel versus heap allocations.

      It also shows how Apple fanboys applaud the author's explaination, even though they haven't a clue about the subject matter - and even admit it in their posts.

      If you had actually refuted anything that Peter had said in his article, you might have a leg to stand on, but since you didn't, and since you toss off an epithet like "fanboy" instead of doing so, I conclude that you are the clueless one.

      No wonder you're an AC.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      That was a very good link. The comments where also very interesting.
      The author did address the Malloc issue well.
      What I got from the comments is that the author really did fail to address the issues that OS/X seems to have with the speed of some function system calls and or the speed of process and thread creation.
      It could be that OS/X isn't as well suited for HPC applications and some server application as Linux is.
      I do think OS/X is a very good OS. Just like Linux and Windows it isn't perfect and could improve. I do think calling it "Dog Slow" is a little over the top.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Some time ago I tried a simple test on three machines
      • _1_ OSX (dual G5 1.8GHz, OSX 10.3.x)
      • _2_ Linux (same dual G5 1.8GHz, Fedora Core 4)
      • _3_ Linux (Centrino notebook 1.8GHz, Fedora Core 4)
      mega=10000
      time dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1048576 count=$mega
      adjusting the mega variable to have an execution time of a few seconds.
      I can't reproduce the results now, as I can't access the machines, but I remember these results:
      • OSX (_1_) is some orders of magnitude slower than Linux (_2_ or _3_); that is, a "did I put gigabytes instead of megabytes?" difference.
      • Intel Centrino (_3_) is twice as fast as the dual G5 (_2_)

      The same test, but trying to use both CPUs on the G5:
      mega=10000
      time dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1048576 count=$mega &
      time dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1048576 count=$mega &
      Results:
      • OSX (_1_) scales badly (time becomes, let's say, 1.5 times larger), locking overhead?
      • Linux on dual G5 (_2_) scales perfectly (time remains unchanged)
      • Linux on the single CPU Centrino (_3_) doubles the time (as you would expect, having only one CPU)
      • Linux on the single CPU Centrino (_3_) is a little faster than Linux on the dual G5 (_2_); this is not a good result for the PowerPC
      I know these tests are not typical of a real workload, but I was seriously disappointed by OSX (and a little by the PPC too).
      If someone can reproduce my tests, please try and post your results.
    6. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by localman · · Score: 1

      It's a good article. I wonder why OSX isn't compiled with a larger heap threshold, though? I'd do with a 2x performance increase on common operations even if it cost more memory (in the form of fragmentation). My only guess is that in real world usage this is not common, and thus it wouldn't improve real-world performance much?

      Cheers.

    7. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by gnasher719 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      '' It's a good article. I wonder why OSX isn't compiled with a larger heap threshold, though? I'd do with a 2x performance increase on common operations even if it cost more memory (in the form of fragmentation). My only guess is that in real world usage this is not common, and thus it wouldn't improve real-world performance much? ''

      It is _not_ a common operation.

      As that article explained, the developers of the software in question could have used Shark (comes for free with every Macintosh), and within 20 seconds they would have found that they are wasting tons of time by allocating and deleting memory again and again and again and again and again. Note that for calls to malloc () to make any noticable difference in execution time, you must make an awful lot of them. So twenty seconds of observation plus two hours of tweaking their code would have made their software substantially faster _on every_ platform.

      Typical code has few large allocations, which stay around for long time, and possibly a huge number of small allocations that get allocated and freed very quickly. So an implementation does the small allocations itself (because it is quicker) and leaves the large allocations to the OS (because that helps with fragmentation), just as MacOS X does.

    8. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by localman · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that was my guess; that it wasn't common in the real world.

      I wonder how much research there has been as to what the optimal size for the heap threshold is. It's just interesting that the malloc implementations differ so much. It sure makes sense to distinguish between small/fast allocations and larger allocations. But is 35K really optimal? Maybe it is. Do they publish data on this anywhere?

      Cheers.

    9. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact is that you are just a whiny os x fanboy isn't it?

    10. Re:"OS X is slow" claims investigated by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1
      _1_ OSX (dual G5 1.8GHz, OSX 10.3.x)
      ... OSX (_1_) scales badly (time becomes, let's say, 1.5 times larger), locking overhead?

      Pre-10.4 releases had coarser locking (the "funnels") than did 10.4[.x]. It'd be interesting to see what happens with your tests on 10.4[.x], where the locking is more fine-grained.

      (I also hope 10.3.x wasn't actually copying any data on those writes. If so, that's a cheap and easy "microbenchmark" hack; any UN*X whose /dev/null write routine does anything more than return a success indication is doing more work than it needs to. Heck, we knew about that in the SunOS 4.0 days - "cp" mmapped the input file, and the write to "/dev/null" from the mapped region didn't actually do any work, so it went really fast.)

  13. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 1

    "Honestly. OSV is SLOW compared to native. No one wants slow."

    While I don't think virtualization will kill off native OSes, it's not slow.

    We use virtualization at work, the hit from VMWare is significant but usually managable, and the hit from Xen is small enough that it's getting hard to measure.

    --
    I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
  14. Re:Poetry is the reason for slowness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How is the above comment marked "Interesting"? Shouldn't it be -1 "Flamebait"? It's not even "Funny".

    Hello... Marketing people make commercials, not programmers. Don't be such a tool.

  15. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by argent · · Score: 1

    And of course, no modern anti-apple troll should be complete without reference to Apple's 'betrayel' of PA semi

    Don't forget MPC8641D.

  16. A flash presentation by DerCed · · Score: 1

    A flash presentation which is over 6 MB large (still loading)..
    Good bye, dear server!

    1. Re:A flash presentation by DerCed · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I forgot: I HATE FLASH!!!!

    2. Re:A flash presentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The feeling is mutual: Flash hates you!

  17. Re:Profit! by moro_666 · · Score: 3, Informative

    somebody must have mispelled "book commercial" as "presentation".

    there's nothing really new in that presentation, most of slashdotters know this stuff already, the only thing that we didn't know as of yet is that you can mispell "book commercial" in such an interesting way.

    you can "troll" or "flamebait" my post, but this is the way that it is.

    --

    I'd tell you the chances of this story being a dupe, but you wouldn't like it.
  18. Ad by AstrumPreliator · · Score: 4, Informative

    I looked at the "presentation" and no, it doesn't do a very good job of explaining anything. Maybe combined with an extensive lecture to explain what the hell he's talking about would make it a bit more clear. From what I saw it was basically just enumerating the different components. Then I noticed the second to last slide. It's basically an ad for a book coming out.

    Maybe it's just me though. Did anyone else find it extremely enlightening?

  19. Underpowered Little Machine by Beefslaya · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As the purchaser of a brand new Core Duo Mini, (my first Mac, I feel "as happy as a little Gurlll!") I noticed that my system out of the box with 512 of RAM was dog slow when you start loading iPhoto, or any more then 2 apps.

    Initial startup yielded a smoking fast web browser, and other single line items.

    I purchased the 2GB Ram upgrade (not from Apple at 600 USD, 280USD from Crucial) and I noticed such a difference, that I couldn't understand WHY they would even consider shipping that little silver wonder with less then 1GB of RAM.

    It's not the kernel, it's the apps... They just don't give enough power to the off the shelf machines to support the great apps that come with it.

    Vive le Mac... Thanks for putting excitement back into computing for me.

    1. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the apps, it's the whole IO system. Why oh why would a video playing from an external Firewire drive start breaking up because the Mail app running from the internal HD decides it's time to check for new mails? More memory helps because you won't be hitting the disks quite as often, but it doesn't change the fact that OS X's IO performance sucks donkey cock.

    2. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by caseih · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think much of OS X's ram-hungriness comes from the fact that outside of the system frameworks, there is very little utilization of shared libraries among the different applications. Each app bundle is largely self-contained with its own shared libraries. Granted most apps that ship with OS X (from apple) just access the shared frameworks in /Library/Frameworks and have few other dependencies in their bundles. But start adding apps like MS Word, Firefox, OpenOffice, etc, and you'll start having multiple copies of various libraries loaded. The app bundle system is very simple and reliable, but because of the shared library issue, you'll always need more ram when running these apps on OS X than Windows or Linux.

      Definitely 1 GB is a minimum amount of RAM needed for OS X Tiger these days. That is quite sad when you think about it, but RAM is cheap so I'm not too concerned about it. Apple has always shipped their machines short on RAM, hoping you'll pay ridiciulous amounts of money for their official RAM upgrades.

    3. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Crizp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to be a total Apple fanboy but all mainstream computer suppliers sell PC's with half the amount of RAM that's usually needed. When Windows ran fine on 128 MB, you got 64. Now you usually get 512 MB, but XP SP2 is slow with less than a gig. Especially if you're playing games, but also using regular apps.

    4. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by zuhl · · Score: 1

      We got 2 Intel iMacs here at our graphic deisgn studio and I considered them essentially DOA until I got some more RAM for them. 512MB is NOT enough. Both those machines now have 1 GB and are acceptable and nice. Don't forget that the Intel iMacs don't have dedicated video RAM. They share RAM with the system. I'm pretty sure that's a huge reason for the slowdown when it's "RAM-poor."

    5. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 1

      I purchased the 2GB Ram upgrade (not from Apple at 600 USD, 280USD from Crucial) and I noticed such a difference, that I couldn't understand WHY they would even consider shipping that little silver wonder with less then 1GB of RAM.

      And this is exactly what you should have done. Apple ships their consumer boxes with way too little RAM (they always have,) but the upside to that is you can just go elsewhere and buy it cheaper than Apple is willing to sell it for.

      I wouldn't fully judge ANY computer's speed unless it's got 2 gigs of RAM. That's about the minimum you need these days if you want to avoid swapping. Including that much in a consumer level PC just doesn't make sense though.

    6. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Beefslaya · · Score: 1

      I got this little Mini, because it sat so pretty on top of the PC that I have, and it's a training device for me.. :)

      I am waiting for the PowerMac's to get the Intel chips so I could get a stomping machine with a mondo video card. I will then put my PC on eBay.

      Soon, I hope.

    7. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Beefslaya · · Score: 1

      Buying RAM for a Mac isnt' what it used to be. If I remember right, before the MacIntels, and such, you had to buy special matched/paired memory kits for upgrades, specially from Apple.

      The big benifit will be when they release MacIntel Powermac's with big honkin' video cards.

      I will then purchase one and dual boot XP Pro for times when I feel like playing games, because that's what my PC has become, a bloated gaming machine, that takes up too much space on my desk.

      I will sacrifice a little speed for stability any day of the week.

      I spend 8-16 hours a day giving tech support to Windows users, and it got to the point that I didn't even want to touch my PC at home, because I don't want to even see the start menu.

      Getting the mac was the best thing to happen to my IT career. Now I come home and feel like developing again. It saved me from Windows burn out.

    8. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, what exactly are you talking about?

      Im sitting here in front of a IBM Thinkpad with 1Gig of ram, with 10 tabs in firefox open, evolution email, gaim instant messenger, OpenOffice and banshee music player running, just like I always do, and my computer isnt swapping at all and never does. Please dont spout rediculous BS.

    9. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by ickies · · Score: 2, Informative

      "I noticed that my system out of the box with 512 of RAM was dog slow when you start loading iPhoto, or any more then 2 apps." You know, for the first several hours of uptime after starting Tiger for the first time, depending on how much data you have, the Spotlight is indexing all your drives in the background and the system is SLOW AS MOLASSES. Like, painfully so. But it speeds back up after it finishes all that initial indexing.

    10. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All Macs have used generic RAM for well over a decade. I don't know ANYONE who's ever bought RAM from Apple after purchase. In fact, I don't think it's ever been possible to do so.

    11. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by jocknerd · · Score: 2, Informative

      You also have to remember that the Mac mini has integrated graphics which uses some of the memory. I've heard it uses about 80MB of your memory. But I agree, it needs at least 1GB to run smoothly.

    12. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have the same exact machine with 512 MB. No issues with performance, even running a bunch of applications at once. I'm kind of surprised you have an issue.

      Of course, it's always a great idea to have as much memory as you can. But I don't see a problem with a typical tech user flying the dual core mac mini with 512 MB of memory, unless you're doing something that needs an uncommon amount of resident memory.

      Maybe your anonymous "other" apps just suck - I'm not sure. I use mail, iPhoto, Safari, Camino, Office, and several others all at once without issue. It must be that something(s) you're running is grabbing a lot of RAM and forcing it to stay resident.

    13. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by cweber · · Score: 1

      The Core Duo/Solo Mac Mini and MacBooks run faster if you pair RAM sticks due to the memory architecture. This is most felt on the Minis and MacBooks (non-Pro) because they use system RAM as video RAM. From the factory all these Macs come with single RAM sticks.

    14. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Dot+Solipsism · · Score: 1

      I was going to make the same statement, so instead, i'll just concur with your point about Spotlight indexing. I really think Apple should make an on-screen notice to inform users of this fact. That being said, 512MB RAM w/ an Intel 950 chipset is quite low for OSX or WinXP.

    15. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did Mr. Grumpy get up on the wrong side of the bed today?

    16. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Golias · · Score: 2, Informative

      Buying RAM for a Mac isnt' what it used to be. If I remember right, before the MacIntels, and such, you had to buy special matched/paired memory kits for upgrades, specially from Apple.

      You don't remember right.

      I've owned Macs for years, and never once used anything other than cheap third-party memory to upgrade them. The G3 Towers were very picky about memory that was up to spec, but even then there was no need to buy from Apple.

      And how, exactly, would you suggest installing "matched/paired memory kits" into the SINGLE SLOT in the G4 version of the Mac mini?

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    17. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by krakelohm · · Score: 1

      Ya know if you look really close, there is a dot that blinks in the spotlight icon when indexing. Also if you try to use spotlight (Apple+Space) it will let you know. I agree with you though, if your not looking for it you have no clue.

      --
      You are all a bunch of idots.
    18. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Dot+Solipsism · · Score: 1

      Excellent! I didn't know that. Thanks.

      Apple is really trying to increase their user base and I beleive that about half of the new Macs purchsaed are from first time Mac customers. The average Windows user knows that there system will never be as fast as it is "out of the box" (To the Windows geeks: I said "average ... user", so please, there is no need to comment how you hacked the registry, overclocked the CPU, removed unneeded sofware, etc. :-D). Soptlight is one of the best features with OSX Tiger, but I can certainly see the average new Mac user's first impression is that their system is extremely slow and not worth the cost. I wonder if Apple has taken that into consideration?

    19. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by Durandal64 · · Score: 1

      Why the hell did you get machines with integrated graphics chipsets for graphic design work? You could've gotten an iMac with an X1600 or just waited for the new towers.

    20. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by MacBastard · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, you're both kinda right.

      Certain Power Macintosh models, usually the higher end ones, could use matched pairs so that you could interleave memory pages. If you went that route, supposedly you could squeeze out some more system performance. If I remember right, Apple claimed you could gain up to 20% more total system performance on the PowerMac 8500/9500 systems by activating memory interleaving. The only people that I remember doing this were heavy Photoshop users or serious Adobe Premiere video editors. Remember, this was about when DRAM was considered cheap at around US$12 per MB!

      It didn't have to be from Apple, either. I remember setting people up with lots of Kingston SIMMs and DIMMs back then.

      Otherwise, you could put any memory that fit (except ECC) in any slot order, and it would run fine that way, too.

      --
      - Semper Ubi Sub Ubi!
    21. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by caseih · · Score: 1

      Not sure why my post was rated funny, but oh well. Karma is karma.

    22. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by MojoStan · · Score: 2, Informative
      Not sure why my post was rated funny, but oh well. Karma is karma.
      Being modded "Funny" doesn't improve you karma anymore. Your post seems to indicate that you didn't know this, but I'm not sure. Anyhoo, here's the relevant FAQ:
      What is karma?

      Your karma is a reference that primarily represents how your comments have been moderated in the past. Karma is structured on the following scale "Terrible, Bad, Neutral, Positive, Good, and Excellent." If a comment you post is moderated up, your karma will rise. Consequently, if you post a comment that has been moderated down, your karma will fall.

      In addition to moderation, other things factor into karma as well. You can get some karma by submitting a story that we decide to post. Also, metamoderation can cause your karma to change. This encourages good moderators, and ideally removes moderator access from bad ones.

      Note that being moderated Funny doesn't help your karma. You have to be smart, not just a smart-ass.

      --
      TO START
      PRESS ANY KEY

      Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...

    23. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by tyrione · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Perhaps if those applications actually leveraged Cocoa's AppKit Frameworks, Core Data, Core Imaging, etc., then you'd see drastically smaller app bundles and more shared use of built-in Cocoa Frameworks.

      Since they are Carbon based expect them to be bloated.

      When Apple replaces Finder and other critical sections of their application base with pure cocoa applications then perhaps we'll see more improvements as we should have seen.

    24. Re:Underpowered Little Machine by zuhl · · Score: 1

      The two Intel iMacs are not design machines. They are for the receptionist and an account exec. Everyone else (14 designers) has dual G5s with loads of RAM, HD space, etc. Still, I should put 2 gig of RAM in the Intel machines. :-)

  20. Re:Poetry is the reason for slowness by keiterk · · Score: 1

    Oh, and by the way, the hum doesn't bother me whatsoever. 90% of the time its perfectly silent. Also, my old laptop, an HP ZD7000 P4 3.2ghz had the EXACT same problem.

  21. Re:The average person by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So go read a less technical website than Slashdot.
    This story was boring because the presentation was dumb. It had a little useful information but not much. The subject is interesting.
    OS/X security? How to lock it down? There are many sites on the web. Look for just about any good site about UNIX security and start from that. OS/X uses the UNIX security model.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  22. Closed? by ShadowBottle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Riiiight. Just because some idiot alarmists say that the kernel has gone closed when it simply just hasn't been released yet, the media and clueless bloggers start crying that it's gone closed source.
    "Well... it hasn't. It's still open. IT JUST HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET.
    OSNews is reporting that Ernest Prabhakar, Apple's Open Source and Open Standards product manager, has stated in the Fed-Talk mailing that Apple has not actually closed Mac OS X's Darwin kernel for the Intel version of the OS; they simply haven't released it yet. Speculation about Apple closing the kernel arose from the fact that other non-kernel Darwin sources actually have been released, and the previous PowerPC-based kernel is still available as open source as well.Ernest wanted to make sure that tech media didn't confuse 'speculation' with 'fact'. A good lesson we all could benefit from...."

    God damn alarmist idiots.

    1. Re:Closed? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      If OSNews is reporting this (I can't get to OSNews right now), then they appear to be exaggerating a comment by Prabhakar. The only posting I can find from him on the entire list in the last two months is this one.

      In it, he simply makes it clear that no decision has been made public yet. This is what he writes:

      Hi all,

      Just to be clear, Tom Yager was *speculating* about why we have -- so far -- not released the source code of the kernel for Intel-based Macintoshes. We continue to release *all* the Darwin sources for our PowerPC systems, and so far has released all the non-kernel Darwin sources for Intel.

      Nothing has been announced, so he (and everyone else) certainly has the right to speculate. But please don't confuse "speculation" with "fact."

      Thanks,
      -- Ernie P.

      If the intent is to release the source to XNU for Intel, then Prabhakar went a long way to avoid saying explicitly that it's going to happen. He most certainly did NOT say this was a matter of them not having released it "yet".

      There are multiple reasons why XNU for Intel might not have been released, from over-paranoid and not terribly bright PHB types thinking that somehow it would help hackers (because hackers never hack the copy-prevention measures of binary-only programs...) to support for an unannounced feature, like Virtualization, being present in all new 10.4.1+ kernels. But the way I read Prabhakar, it sounds like more of the former type of issue, with key figures in Apple being against the release of the source now and in the future, and with the final decision not being made. If it was as simple as the "unannounced new feature", I think he'd explicitly say Apple plans to release the source, wouldn't he?

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    2. Re:Closed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's..open. IT JUST HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET.

      Can't Microsoft claim the exact same thing?

    3. Re:Closed? by jcr · · Score: 1

      If it was as simple as the "unannounced new feature", I think he'd explicitly say Apple plans to release the source, wouldn't he?

      No, he certainly would not.

      Even mentioning a future feature as obliquely as that would be speaking about a future product, which is something that Apple does extremely rarely, if at all. All that's been said about Leopard, for example, is that WWDC attendees will get to see it. That doesn't even mean that there will be a WWDC release (although it's likely that there will be).

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:Closed? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      You say he wouldn't and then justify a completely different set of claims, namely that he wouldn't announce a new feature or when it's going to be released.

      I maintain that if Apple intends to release the source of XNU, he would have explicity said that. The fact they're not saying so means that there's some debate as to whether the source will be released within Apple, and that's assuming they haven't decided not to but don't want to make the decision public yet.

      If the hold-up is simply that recent XNUs contain an unannounced feature, then Apple can and should say that the source to the Intel version of XNU is still going to be released, just not yet.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    5. Re:Closed? by jcr · · Score: 1

      I maintain that if Apple intends to release the source of XNU, he would have explicity said that.

      "Maintain" it all you like, that doesn't make it so.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    6. Re:Closed? by Warlock7 · · Score: 1

      Apple is notorious for playing their hand close to their chest. If they want you to know something officially, then they'll tell you. If they don't they won't. Speculation about Apple has never gotten people very far...

    7. Re:Closed? by geoff2 · · Score: 1

      All that's been said about Leopard, for example, is that WWDC attendees will get to see it.

      Almost -- Apple has said it will include a final version of Boot Camp.

    8. Re:Closed? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      Fascinating.

      However, my argument makes sense, and you don't have a counter-argument. So I'll continue to "maintain" my position.

      If Apple is planning to release XNU, by delaying and refusing to confirm it will be released, they're sending exactly the opposite message. The most probably explanation at this time is either it's not going to be released, or Apple's having some kind of internal debate as to whether to continue IX86 kernel source releases. Adding a mysterious, unannounced, feature with the source being released once the feature's announced is improbable, at this time.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    9. Re:Closed? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      If I called Apple because I'd waited a month for my MacBook to arrive, and asked if the MacBook had been discontinued, they'd be pretty open about the fact it's still in production.

      All people have asked, at this stage, is whether source code updates to XNU/Intel will continue to be released, as they always have, after the last few months of updates have been withheld. Apple are refusing to give any kind of explanation.

      Apple may keep their cards to their chest, but they don't generally keep secret the fact a policy hasn't changed. Business as Usual is not a secret.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    10. Re:Closed? by jcr · · Score: 1

      However, my argument makes sense, and you don't have a counter-argument. So I'll continue to "maintain" my position.

      Oh, for pete's sake. I worked there for three and half years. I know what Apple employees will and will not say about future plans.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    11. Re:Closed? by Warlock7 · · Score: 1

      Wow. What a horribly sad little straw man you've constructed to support your interpretation of Apple's non-disclosure. You clearly don't understand how this company works. There has been zero substantiation of whether they will close the source or not. The analysts are speculating, which is what they do.

      Apple has been known, on many occasions, to not reveal free improvements to hardware until it was in their customers hands. Which is just as unimportant as your argument.

      Patience is a virtue my friend. Have some...

      Wait for the conformation or denial of the rumor. Rumors are what they are. Until they are corroborated, they are just rumors. Take the recent Sony Blu-ray report as an example and wait for the facts rather than jumping to unsupported conclusions.

    12. Re:Closed? by Warlock7 · · Score: 1
      ...my argument makes sense...
      Uh, you don't appear to be presenting an argument, you seem to have an unsupported opinion. By the way, your position (not argument) makes sense to you. Yet you have at least two people who appear to disagree with the "logic" which lead you to your position, not that that really matters.
      ...you don't have a counter-argument.
      He doesn't need one. He's merely presenting what he sees as relevant facts to the seemingly unreasonable.
      ...by delaying and refusing to confirm it will be released, they're sending exactly the opposite message.
      Actually, they're not, they're sending no message whatsoever. The opposite message would be to say that they're not going to release it and then release it anyhow. You're choosing to assume that the lack of a information is what you are interpreting it to be.

      You might be right, but you also might be wrong. The issue here seems to be that you are certain that your interpretation of the lack of information has to be the correct one.
    13. Re:Closed? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      Straw man? What straw man?

      Apple has been known, on many occasions, to not reveal free improvements to hardware until it was in their customers hands.
      The relevence of this being what exactly?

      All people have asked for is if the policy of releasing the source code to XNU/ix86 is still active. Apple has stonewalled. You do not get that stonewalling from Apple if you ask if a policy is still active that is. If you ask "Has the MacBook been discontinued?", they'll tell you it hasn't. If you ask "Will the next version of iTunes include support for the iPod", they'll tell you.

      Wait for the conformation or denial of the rumor.

      There is no rumour. The fact is that Apple hasn't released the source code for XNU/ix86 since Darwin 8.01. That's not a rumour. And Apple are NOT saying they plan to release source code in future, they're pointedly refusing to answer when asked.

      This has nothing to do with new hardware. It has to do with Apple refusing to answer a simple yes or no question about whether things are business as usual. Nobody's asking them to reveal the existance of new features, we're not asking for timelines, we're not asking what's going to be in the kernel, we're just asking whether they plan, at some point, to release the source to the Intel version of XNU. When the answer isn't forthcoming, it's reasonable to suggest that the BEST CASE SCENARIO is that they haven't decided yet, which itself is a change of policy, and the WORST CASE is that they're not going to release it, and they're waiting for the appropriate time to tell us.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    14. Re:Closed? by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Funny
      Uh, you don't appear to be presenting an argument, you seem to have an unsupported opinion. By the way, your position (not argument) makes sense to you. Yet you have at least two people who appear to disagree with the "logic" which lead you to your position, not that that really matters.
      An unsupported opinion is one where facts are not presented that back up the opinion. Disagree with me all you like, but the facts do actually agree with my position, which is why I used them in my argument.

      The two people disagreeing with me haven't really given me a reason to change my mind. JCR initially reponded to my argument with responses to a completely different argument (namely that I was expecting Apple to release details about a future product), and then simply implied I was wrong without explaining why. You're doing much the same thing, even accusing me of creating "straw men" in an argument that didn't actually have anything of the sort.

      He doesn't need one. He's merely presenting what he sees as relevant facts to the seemingly unreasonable.
      If you want to convince someone that their argument is incorrect, then yes, you need a counter argument to it. If I say "1+1=2", then a counter argument "No it isn't" isn't going to convince me otherwise. If you, however, explain your reasoning, I might agree with you if the argument makes sense. Right now, we have a discussion that goes something like this:

      Me: 1+1=2
      JCR: No, you can't use an assignment operator like that
      Me: Erm, I wasn't using it as an assignment operator, if you add one and one, you get two.
      JCR: You may get two, that doesn't mean it's the right answer
      You: One and one becomes two? I don't think that can possibly work
      Me (exasperated to JCR): Can you explain your reasoning?
      JCR: I've got 20 years of being a know-it-all. How dare you challenge my foolproof knowledge!
      You: Why should he have to explain anything, it's you who's in the wrong, look, two of us disagree with you!

      All I've said so far is that:

      1. The claim that Apple has said that the source for XNU for Intel is merely delayed is false. The evidence doesn't back that up at all. Apple has made no comment. That's a fact, and the idiot OP who posted otherwise should have been modded to the floor.

      2. The fact that Apple has made no comment suggests that the future release of the source code is open to question. There are multiple explanations as to why they'd not have released the source code yet, but right now the most probable are to do with Apple being in a position where they may never release it. If there was no change of policy, if they still expected to release the source code, they'd have no problems saying that. They have no problems confirming they still sell MacBooks. They have no problems confirming iTunes will continue to support iPods.

      Now, you and JCR seem to think otherwise, or else you're responding to an entirely different argument (as JCR initially did.) As I've clarified that point to JCR, there's not much excuse for that.

      But, whatever, here's the central point: If you disagree with me, explain why. Because I can't change my mind unless you do. If you're just masturbating, posting "No you're wrong" because it turns you on, by all means continue, but there's little point.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    15. Re:Closed? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      This is a non-answer.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    16. Re:Closed? by Warlock7 · · Score: 2
      After re-reading your posts, and the responses, I don't disagree with you. I interpreted your statements to be supporting Yager's interpretation as fact.

      Yager's speculation as to why they might close it sounds viable, but Prabhakar says that it's merely speculation. Which it is. Yager's assumption doesn't seem to address the possibility that Apple might be changing from XNU to something else entirely, which has been continually speculated for years now. Yager also ignores the possibility that they might be drastically changing it and how it operates and withholding it until they've gotten it to the point that they are comfortable with releasing it. Nobody but those inside Apple know for sure and speculation presented as fact is useless, it only serves to exacerbate matters.

      Since they have never released XNU under X86 thus far it is still "business as usual" at Apple even though they've always made XNU under PPC available. They have time to make their decision and it's well within their right to do so. So, as I said before, be patient. The news will come when they are ready to release it. Until then, it doesn't matter if you or anybody else demands them to make their intentions known now or not. They've, according to Yager, stated that "...the state of an OS X-compatible open source x86 Darwin kernel is in flux." Until they release it or announce that they won't we've got unsupported speculation based on a lack of evidence.
      If I called Apple because I'd waited a month for my MacBook to arrive, and asked if the MacBook had been discontinued, they'd be pretty open about the fact it's still in production.
      This is what I saw as your straw-man. This has nothing at all to do with your point. While you may be attempting to make a valid correlation here, it really isn't one. Your attributing this position to Apple, your true opponent, as they haven't given you what you want, information/code. This is not as simple as your hardware shipping late and Apple needing to explain themselves. I can see the point you are getting at, but the statement doesn't really apply the same way as the situation under discussion.

      The fact that Apple has made no comment suggests that the future release of the source code is open to question.
      This is very true. Sorry for getting into reactionary /. mode. It was a long day and sometimes that will happen...
    17. Re:Closed? by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      If you had called Apple two weeks ago because you'd waited a month for you iBook to arrive, and asked if the iBook had been discontinued, they wouldn't have mentioned anything about the fact whether it's still in production or not.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    18. Re:Closed? by Warlock7 · · Score: 1

      I would bet that the time that they will make the announcement as to whether or not they intend to release XNU for x86 will happen at the WWDC.

  23. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Fordiman · · Score: 1

    90% normal speed is slow, or at least, slower than optimal. I'm not going to pay for a system that's 10% less than I actually paid for. Try watching a video that's been slowed to 90%, and you'll see what I mean by slow.

    No. I don't need to use another OS today.

    --
    110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
  24. The Dude Abides by bariswheel · · Score: 0, Troll

    Wowzers....1900 pages uh uh uh uh uh...compllekks! - Jeff Lebowski

    --
    Insinct is stronger than Upbringing - Irish Proverb
  25. Why bother by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Werent we told recently that we no longer have the right to make modifications and compile the apple kernel from source?
    Maybe it would be useful to look at it for learning purposes, but now-a-days I believe you can get into quite a bit of trouble if you look at source code thats not your own then go off to make your own project under a different licence.

    1. Re:Why bother by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1
      Werent we told recently that we no longer have the right to make modifications and compile the apple kernel from source?

      No.

      Maybe it would be useful to look at it for learning purposes, but now-a-days I believe you can get into quite a bit of trouble if you look at source code thats not your own then go off to make your own project under a different licence.

      "Now-a-days"? Try releasing a *BSD system under the GPL, or the Linux kernel+glibc under a BSD license, and see how much trouble you get into.

      Whether looking at project X and using its ideas when writing a new project gets you into trouble is another matter. I'm not sure whether the GPL or the modified BSD license or the APSL limits what you can do if you read code covered by that license or not.

  26. Re:The average person by zpeterz63 · · Score: 1

    could care less

    I think you mean "couldn't care less". I don't really blame you as this is a very common mistake people make, but seriously, think for a moment on what you're saying.

  27. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 1

    Try watching a video that's been slowed to 90%, and you'll see what I mean by slow.

    A video slowed to 90% would be annoying, but any modern system slowed to 90% would play a video at full speed. Your analogy breaks down.

    As the mac-buying public has no problem with rosetta slow downs on intel hardware, I imagine they wouldn't have any problems with other slow downs due to emulation layers.

    --
    There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
  28. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What a silly claim to make.

    But ignoring that, our company, an office/data entry/database type product, right now is on the verge of having the Mac version EOLed. Our product runs exactly the same with virtualization under Windows on Intel Macs. The cold hard economic fact is that it is cheaper for us to drop the Mac version and let the small, but not insignificant number of companies with Macs, run our software under virtualization as soon as it become mainstream shortly. It is clear that for most businesses a Windows license is going to be mandatory for every Mac in the company.

    I am sure the exact same cost/benefit calculation is going on at almost every company that ships Mac software right now.

    The handful of Mac people here are in shock since they have been a bit uppity over the last year with talk of how the whole Windows world, both home and biz, was about to switch to Apple. Oh well, the loss of the OS X version looks like it will be replaced with a Linux version. For some reason that seems to be salt in the wounds for the Mac people here.

  29. Re:Profit! by bariswheel · · Score: 1

    The book you claim all slashdotters 'know' is 1900 pages long, and it's pretty substantive and articulate. Why don't you check the TOC (it's freely available as pdf) and reconsider your statement. You might actually have to look into the story though instead of commenting on it with preconceived notions.

    --
    Insinct is stronger than Upbringing - Irish Proverb
  30. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Fordiman · · Score: 1, Troll

    It does not break down. A system at 90% is just as annoying as a video at 90%. I paid for full speed, I want full speed.

    "As the mac-buying public has no problem with rosetta slow downs on intel hardware, I imagine they wouldn't have any problems with other slow downs due to emulation layers."

    The mac-buying public has no problem with getting less than what they paid for? No... Surely not...

    No seriously, I'm well aware of the masses of emu layers Macs *presently* have, as well as all the stupid pissing contests about Windows' legacy software support - when both systems have the same problem.

    No, seriously; the mac-PC split in my mind is one of usability versus cost and software availability, and since for me, usability is a nonentity, you know where my dollars lay. I don't hate Apple (though their marketing humans ALL need shot in the face with the largest weapon handy), but I can't justify overpaying for their stuff.

    Now you want me to overpay for my computer to support multiple OSes at a performance hit - to what end? So I can run software I've never needed before? Oh Goody Goody Gumdrops.

    So yeah. My point is that Virtualization will not destroy the native OS market. Not a chance in hades. Too many performance hounds like myself in the work to cause native to fail to be profitable.

    Oh, and if you think that virtualized performance will match native in the future: well, it's possible, but don't think commercial marketing is going to let anyone know; it's in their interests to have there be a compromise in existence so that they can sell you two separate products. And they wouldn't be able to fool you or I, but they absolutely would be able to fool a significant enough chunk of the masses.

    --
    110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
  31. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by dal20402 · · Score: 1
    The cold hard economic fact is that it is cheaper for us to drop the Mac version and let the small, but not insignificant number of companies with Macs, run our software under virtualization

    This is absurd. None of your customers are going to buy $200 Windows licenses, and spend the considerable extra money for Windows support costs, to run your product. They will spend the money to switch to a competitor's product instead. If they wanted to run Windows boxes, they would have them. The fact that they've paid for Macs means they want to run Mac OS, not Windows.

    Therefore, the real effect of your decision will be that you will lose your Mac customers. If you have enough Mac customers that your Mac software is a profitable product, you are going to lose money from your decision. If you didn't have that many Mac customers, you shouldn't have been making a Mac product anyway.

    If management at your company has this little basic business sense, I'm glad I'm not relying on your product to operate my business.

  32. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Uh...yeah, whatever."

    Oh god do I love reading the indignant lalaland Mac freaks these days.

    Yep, software developers are going to go right on putting out Mac versions out of the goodness of their hearts just like game developers did for all those native Mac games!

    Fund the development of the Mac version or just let the tiny Mac niche of the market dualboot or run their software through their ubiquitous Intel Mac Windows partition...

    Bwhahahahaha!

    Dream on Mac freaks!

  33. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 1

    It does not break down. A system at 90% is just as annoying as a video at 90%.

    No, it does break down. A video at 90% speed is unwatchable. A computer at 90% speed is quite usable.

    In fact - as you rightly point out, no matter what system you're using, it will almost certainly be running at less then 90% of its full speed.

    I paid for full speed, I want full speed.

    Well, I don't disagree with you there.

    So yeah. My point is that Virtualization will not destroy the native OS market. Not a chance in hades. Too many performance hounds like myself in the work to cause native to fail to be profitable.

    It probably won't kill it, but it will vastly reduce the amount of 'native' software.

    I think the vast majority of people will quite happily accept a 5-10% slowdown.

    --
    There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
  34. Re:The average person by AnalystX · · Score: 1

    I really don't blame anyone for using one phrase or the other. Out of context, both have problems. You have to consider the level at which someone cares about something before how much less they could care has any meaning. For instance, if on a scale of 0 to 9 (0 being the least anyone can care about anything and 9 being the most anyone can care about anything) I care about the starving children in Africa at level 9. If I say "I couldn't care less." It may only mean that I can't in good conscience care less than I do. On the other hand, someone who "could care less" can care less because it isn't as important to him. In other words, indifferent. That isn't to say people should say, "could" instead of "couldn't" when they really mean "I care in the least" which by the way is the less ambiguous approach.

  35. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by chez69 · · Score: 1

    we have several large power 5 servers where I work, as well as mainframe systems. when you have a platform where virtualization is part of the architecture and not an afterthought you don't even know your on a shared box. when intel and amd add vituralization to their chips a lot of folks like myself will love being able to run winders/linux/bsd whatever at the same time on one PC.

    --
    PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
  36. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "This is absurd. None of your customers are going to buy $200 Windows licenses, and spend the considerable extra money for Windows support costs, to run your product."

    Woah!

    200 bucks for a Windows license? I don't think so. Are you so clueless that you think IT people drive down to the local computer store and buy a boxed copies of Windows???

    "If you have enough Mac customers that your Mac software is a profitable product, you are going to lose money from your decision. If you didn't have that many Mac customers, you shouldn't have been making a Mac product anyway."

    Woah!

    Only someone who has never worked in a real life software dev house could make such a wildly stupid statement.

    + Savings from dumping Mac developers and overhead to support them
    + Savings from dumping Mac support and packaging
    - Percentage of Mac running customers who stop buying your product due to canceled OS X version

    Revenue goes down, but profits go up in almost every case outside of having 75-100 percent or so of your Mac customers stop buying your product. It is pretty funny to see Mac people freaking out about everyday business economics - "But that won't happen because I wouldn't like it to!" Heh.

  37. OSX: Highly Thread Sensitive by ElitistWhiner · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As an ex-NeXT developer, the historical speed bumps behind this architecture are directly related to code density. NeXTSEP ver 2.0 was nicely running on 25mHz. NeXTSTEP ver 3.0 suffered performance on 25mHz compared to ver 2.0 because of the additional kernel overhead resultant from code densification.

    With every ver. release through 10.4.x MacOS X, mach/BSD layer exhibits funtional improvements with speed increases of the processor CPU and latent performance behaviors from the additional kernal overhead added by code complexity and densification.

    Prima Facia evidence to the 4X speed improvement in performance from Apple's new Intel CPU bears witness to the limits of the kernal architecture.

    1. Re:OSX: Highly Thread Sensitive by linefeed0 · · Score: 1

      Would you mind repeating that, only in standard written English this time? A little clarification of cause and effect might help too, ya know.

  38. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by igb · · Score: 1
    So yeah. My point is that Virtualization will not destroy the native OS market. Not a chance in hades. Too many performance hounds like myself in the work to cause native to fail to be profitable.
    I doubt it. The set of people for whom the ian
  39. Possible interpretation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The OS X kernel has been in the news alot this past year, whether it's why its slow, Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad, it's going closed source and what not. Amit Singh has put up a new presentation on the innards of OS X.

    The OS X kernel has been in the news alot this past year[.] Whether it is why it is slow [(]Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad[)] [OR] it is going closed source and what not[,] Amit Sing has put up a new presentation on the innards of OS X.

    The OS X kernel has been in the news alot this past year. Whether it is why it is slow (Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad) or it is going closed source and what not, Amit Sing has put up a new presentation on the innards of OS X.

    1. Re:Possible interpretation. by vistic · · Score: 1
      Way off...

      "The OS X kernel has been in the news alot this past year, whether it's why its slow, Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad, it's going closed source and what not. Amit Singh has put up a new presentation on the innards of OS X."

      "The OS X kernel has been in the news alot this past year. Whether it is why it is slow (Mach/micro-kernel makes it bad) or it is going closed source and what not, Amit Sing has put up a new presentation on the innards of OS X."

      The OS X kernel has been in the news a lot this past year; either a discussion of why it's slow, or why a mach/micro-kernel makes it bad, or because it's going closed source, etc. Amit Singh has put up a new presentation on the innards of OS X.

      (You skipped over the 'a lot', messed up the meaning of a sentence with parentheses, changed a period to a comma that should have been a period, ruined someone's last name... you have no right to be a grammar nazi!)
  40. Comic indeed by PookieToo · · Score: 0, Troll

    Ummm, lets see, since its a Mac it would be COMIC SANS! What do the Windows people call it?...

    1. Re:Comic indeed by ProKrypt · · Score: 1

      um.. Comic Sans was made by Micros~1

      --
      -ProKrypt
  41. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by dal20402 · · Score: 1
    200 bucks for a Windows license? I don't think so. Are you so clueless that you think IT people drive down to the local computer store and buy a boxed copies of Windows???

    Depends on the IT person's needs. If you're talking about big organizations, no. If you're talking about a shop that keeps its hardware long enough that an OEM license (which can't be moved to another machine) is cost-effective, no. If you're talking about a small business, quite possibly. Microsoft does not have good (or any) volume licensing options for very small numbers of seats.

    Revenue goes down, but profits go up in almost every case outside of having 75-100 percent or so of your Mac customers stop buying your product.

    ...which is exactly what's going to happen. How can it possibly be in your customers' best interest to spend the money on Windows licenses and Windows support (especially when they've already demonstrated a preference against Windows by buying Macs) when they could just switch to the competition instead and avoid Windows entirely? Also, even those customers who continue buying your product in the short term are going to be looking at a completely different value equation when it's time to implement a major version upgrade or roll out the product to a significant number of new users.

    If you're marketing to big enough organizations that the Mac users are only a small portion of the total, then, maybe keeping your product could still be the best value. But the impression I got from the OP was that he was marketing an integrated administrative product to small businesses, which are not nearly as likely to have both platforms, and which can save proportionally more by avoiding those expensive Windows costs.

    In any case, we've only talked so far about the retention of your existing customer base. If you don't offer a Mac product, you will not attract a single new Mac customer. If you find you can be more profitable by shrinking or growing more slowly, fine, but that's not the approach most businesses are seeking to take.

    Where people cite "business economics" for abandoning profitable products on a growing platform, dislike or distrust of the platform usually ends up being a more believable explanation.

  42. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by igb · · Score: 1
    So yeah. My point is that Virtualization will not destroy the native OS market. Not a chance in hades. Too many performance hounds like myself in the work to cause native to fail to be profitable.
    I doubt it. The set of people for whom the < 10% overhead of virtualization is a problem will be massively outweighed by the people who would rather buy a big server to run four instances than four smaller servers. In dollar value terms, anyway.

    ian

  43. The big mystery remains: why Mach? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I know that the original code, from NeXT, was Mach because there wasn't any choice. But in this day and age there are plenty of microkernels that actually perform well, even as a platform for full kernels. There's plenty of benchmarking for Linux on L4, and Linux on Exokernel. Both have minimal impact on performance. (L4 is usually 2-10%, Exokernel is similar.) Mach is a dinosaur. And since microkernels are small, with well-defined interfaces, porting to a more modern one should be relatively easy, even keeping backwards-compatibility of libraries. (You might need a mach emulator, or mach-on-top-of-l4 for a few mach-specific system calls, but that would hardly be a problem.)

    So why hasn't apple done it?

    1. Re:The big mystery remains: why Mach? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      So why should Apple re-host Darwin on some new microkernel? What benefit do they get?

    2. Re:The big mystery remains: why Mach? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For like the zillionth time, xnu is not a Mach kernel. It uses Mach derived portions, and BSD derived portions. If you saw the presentation, the Mach portions constitute less than 15% of the kernel code.

      Repeat after me: xnu is not a microkernel. xnu is not Mach. xnu is not a microkernel. xnu is not Mach.

    3. Re:The big mystery remains: why Mach? by sp0rk173 · · Score: 1

      Assuming XNU was indeed a mach-like microkernel (which it's not, it's a "hydrid" kernel), Apple would get a huge bump in performance. Something like a 80% increase on a more modern microkernel like L4.

  44. Re:Poetry is the reason for slowness by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    You're right, the composition of that poem took the entire development staff at Apple to complete.

    We should all switch from Apple's "crappy kernel" to the wonderful Linux kernel, which is now so buggy even its major developers agree it needs a bug fix cycle.

    --
    "Sufferin' succotash."
  45. Re:Poetry is the reason for slowness by oskay · · Score: 1

    That's Edgar Allan Poe, not "Allen."

  46. Video Card by PDubNYC · · Score: 1

    "Don't forget that the Intel iMacs don't have dedicated video RAM."

    ATI Radeon X1600 Graphics gives iMac the PCI Express treatment on a 16-lane bus interface.
    -Apple's Webpage

    1. Re:Video Card by marklar1 · · Score: 1

      as the Fonz would say, "correctamundo...aaahhh."

      iMacs have dedicated graphics cards.

      Minis and the new MacBook (consumer iBook updates) have the integrated video. They are limited to sharing a max. of 64 MB

  47. Skillsets actually can overlap... by CrazedWalrus · · Score: 1

    It may surprise many Slashdotters that there are people in the world who can effectively write both English *AND* PERL. I detect a lack of effort, education, or both.

  48. that's just one example... by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

    There's plenty more.

    There's no doubt in my mind X is many times slower than it needs to be. Most of it is in the kernel though, not the call site.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  49. Just a "glossy" overview by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1
    I read the Flash presentation. It's at such a gross high level and lacks any details other then the names of some modules. There is no new information here. OK there are lots of parts and it looks complicated but Linux has all those parts too (except for the bagage that is needed to support old Mac OS9 aps)

    My opinion is that mac OSX is very well designed if you beleive that in the future there is be more and more "cores" inside most notebook and desktop computers. OSX is well setup to take advantage of 8-core machines. It should scale well.

    1. Re:Just a "glossy" overview by Slashcrap · · Score: 1

      OSX is well setup to take advantage of 8-core machines.

      Of course, OSX has never actually run on an 8-core machine but we can make accurate predictions of its likely performance due to being bullshitting Mac zealots.

      PS. For comparison purposes, Windows runs on 32 processor SMP systems, Linux on 512.

  50. Re:The average person by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    oh! Now I get it! Also, by any chance, are you able to explain the alarmingly frequent substitution of "then" for "than", as in: "3 is more then 2"?

  51. Re:The average person by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stephen Pinker wrote about this once. it's not a mistake. quite the opposite, in fact
    and can read as short for "as if there were something that I could care less about"
    (or "about which I could care less", if you prefer).

    makes sense to me, but then I am the type who thinks that computer stores should sell "mouses" and
    that the farmer's wife chopped the tails off mice.

  52. 1GB for graphic design? by cyfer2000 · · Score: 1

    Far from enough. You need as much as possible to taste the Adobe Creative Sweet.

    --
    There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
  53. Kernel and Kernel Theory Aside by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

    Kernel and Kernel Theory Aside...

    Most Apple applications themselves tend to be a bit 'bloated'. No matter how fast the kernel is, you have a bit of a bloated GUI construct (especially in terms of RAM Usage) then add on the RAM used by some of the built in applications, and ouch.

    And no, not all of Apple application are bloated, safari isn't bad in terms of size and performance in comparison to some of their other creations like iPhoto, etc...

    You can almost pick through the applications included on OSX and see where the developers just were rushing to get the product working and the ones that performance and RAM usage were seriously taken into account.

    Even iTunes is not built for speed nor does it seem to care about a low RAM footprint.

    OSX performance needs to be debated, but in three parts at the very least. The Kernel OS Layer, The GUI Layer, and the included Application level.

    Here is what is really sad, Vista in Beta is snappy with 512mb and 512mb is the 'recommended' RAM for optimal performance as well. (Of course that is if it ever ships, but in the meantime, a Beta OS full of debug code should not feel snappier than an OS that has been refined for last 6 years like OSX.

    1. Re:Kernel and Kernel Theory Aside by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At first I was going to say that Vista is actually the next in the NT line which was first released in 1993 (and hence has been optimized over the last 13 years), while OS X was only just released 6 years ago (thus having half the time for optimization).

      But then I remembered that OS X is really just the next in the NeXTSTEP line, which was first released in 1989. And while coding for NT first started around 1989, OS X is based on a kernel with direct lineage all the way back to 1969 (Unix => BSD => NeXTSTEP => OS X).

      I think that OS X just wasn't designed for performance. Most apps are written in Objective C which uses a slow dynamic dispatch system like Smalltalk. Its kernel is based on BSD which wasn't designed to have locks, so locking is much more coarse than it needs to be. The Mach base (which as far as I can tell is completely unnecessary) adds extra indirection to system calls.

      Macs are intended to be a single-user interactive system, and most apps spend most of their time waiting for the user, so perf just isn't the high priority it has to be on Windows.

      dom

    2. Re:Kernel and Kernel Theory Aside by Guy+Harris · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Its kernel is based on BSD which wasn't designed to have locks, so locking is much more coarse than it needs to be.

      Few, if any, current UN*Xes were "designed to have locks", but many of them (Solaris, Linux, FreeBSD, OS X) have made their locks finer-grained anyway; it's not as if you're stuck with all the consequences of the "design" forever.

      The Mach base (which as far as I can tell is completely unnecessary) adds extra indirection to system calls.

      What are some examples of this extra indirection? (Note that system calls are not redirected to userland servers.)

      Macs are intended to be a single-user interactive system, and most apps spend most of their time waiting for the user, so perf just isn't the high priority it has to be on Windows.

      Windows personal computers (as opposed to servers) aren't intended to be single-user interactive systems?

  54. On a side note: by mkiwi · · Score: 1
    Vive le Mac... Thanks for putting excitement back into computing for me.

    Mac means "pimp" en français. Thought that was rather funny.

  55. Re:The average person by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good points, and I agree. However, the unambiguous way to express yourself is "I don't care". I don't think "I care in the least" is even valid English.

  56. So...it's faster than Windows?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, if X's micro kernel is slower than a monolithic kernel, and current tests show OS-X is as fast as Windows then....

    Mac OS-X could be faster than Windows. Yes!!! I love it!!!

  57. Re:Profit! by ceri · · Score: 1
    the only thing that we didn't know as of yet is that you can mispell "book commercial" in such an interesting way.


    Now we've also learned how to misspell 'mispell' in an interesting way.
  58. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by MagnusDredd · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Quoth the AC:
    200 bucks for a Windows license? I don't think so. Are you so clueless that you think IT people drive down to the local computer store and buy a boxed copies of Windows???


    You're assuming that the only market for software is medium to large enterprise. Autocad (which is made by a well known vendor) is used by tons and tons of architects. Since I've worked in IT support for a few architectural firms, I can tell you that most of them are comprised of small business of under 50 employees. I've used Autocad under Windows, however when I needed to use something to make some plans for a shed for my church, I used Sketch-Up, because there's an OSX native version.

    Furthermore, most of the people that I've run across who are excited about virtualization are primarily interested in using it to run the existing Windows apps they own, and plan on replacing those with OSX native versions where available, and comparable OSX native apps where not available. The other major segment (where I fall into this equation)interested in virtualization, is the IT people who use/support multiple platforms.

    Boot Camp is for games. Noone I have spoken with that knows about virtualization is seriously intersted in using it for anything other than games.

    Saith the parent:
    "If you have enough Mac customers that your Mac software is a profitable product, you are going to lose money from your decision. If you didn't have that many Mac customers, you shouldn't have been making a Mac product anyway."

    Quoth the AC:
    Woah!

    Only someone who has never worked in a real life software dev house could make such a wildly stupid statement.

    + Savings from dumping Mac developers and overhead to support them
    + Savings from dumping Mac support and packaging
    - Percentage of Mac running customers who stop buying your product due to canceled OS X version

    Revenue goes down, but profits go up in almost every case outside of having 75-100 percent or so of your Mac customers stop buying your product. It is pretty funny to see Mac people freaking out about everyday business economics - "But that won't happen because I wouldn't like it to!" Heh.


    What?
    I'm not understanding something...

    This seems like Carly Fiorina Logic. If we stop making HP calculators, people will just buy handheld HP units with similar funtionality. It doesn't matter that the calculator group provides a substantial net profit for the company. If we stop spending all that money on supporting calculators and simply use the computer support people we already have... Think of the savings!!!!

    When a group/division in a company that caters to a market makes the company lots of money, leave them alone. They're doing their job, pulling a PHB stunt in wall street business tactics will only hurt your company.
  59. Re:Profit! by dgatwood · · Score: 1
    I believe that you misread the GP. The way I interpreted the GP poster's comment was that there was nothing that the average slashdot reader didn't know in the presentation, not in the book.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  60. Re:The average person by AnalystX · · Score: 1

    Interestingly, that's the first thing I typed out ("I don't care"), but I felt like what I was addressing was the usage problem for the term "least." So, I deleted that and wrote the original phrase in its most unambiguous form while maintaining the use of "least." Indeed "I don't care" is even less ambiguous. I think people like to use the word "least" or "most" because it adds emphasis. I believe the example I gave is valid English, in the sense that it doesn't break any rules. However it isn't Standard English, in the sense that it doesn't conform to a model for speech and writing used by the educated. "Least" in this case would refer to which bracket, or classification the caring falls. A parallel example would be someone finishing "in the bottom" of the results, therefore that person would say, "I finished in the bottom." It's vague, but it's not invalid.

  61. Re:The average person by AnalystX · · Score: 1

    Lack of education. Where you looking for something more insightful?

  62. Re:The average person by AnalystX · · Score: 1

    There's the other reason. People type too fast and don't catch their mistakes until seconds after hitting submit. It should be, "Were you looking for something more insightful?"

  63. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

    '' It probably won't kill it, but it will vastly reduce the amount of 'native' software.

    I think the vast majority of people will quite happily accept a 5-10% slowdown. ''

    Customers who bought a Macintosh are very unlikely to accept software that runs 5-10% slower, and _in Windows_.

    I expect that only a small percentage of Macintosh owners would be willing to _use_ Windows software. The percentage who would be willing to _buy_ Windows software, especially after a Macintosh product was abandoned, is miniscule.

  64. Re:OS X Kernel - Why? by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 1

    Customers who bought a Macintosh are very unlikely to accept software that runs 5-10% slower, and _in Windows_.

    I doubt they would even notice a 5-10% slowdown.

    I expect that only a small percentage of Macintosh owners would be willing to _use_ Windows software. The percentage who would be willing to _buy_ Windows software, especially after a Macintosh product was abandoned, is miniscule.

    You obviously did not read the mac fanboy excitement in the win32 virtualization & boot camp stories. It was rampant, you could almost smell how eager the fanbois were to run windows software (embarassing, but true).

    Oh - and I'm afraid the Apple fanboism is being watered down by the legions of clueless ipod inspired switchers - these guys don't give a crap if it used to be mac software, they'll buy it regardless.

    --
    There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
  65. Re:Poetry is the reason for slowness... SURE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uh, they don't pay attention to Vista. They don't know what OS-X is. They don't need to know. They don't CARE.

    They heard that "Apples just work", and they like their iPods. Then they see these commercials who basically say the best reasons to get a Mac are that it has applications for things which they already have applications for, and it doesn't get viruses despite viruses not being a problem for them because they have antiviruses...

    So yes. They WERE serious. They aren't now, they're sticking with generic Windows computers.

  66. Employees (mostly not allowed to write books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple discourages employees from writing books. It's part of the employment contract that you don't write books about Apples current or prospective business, and an internals book would qualify.

    It's supposedly possible to get permission from the lawyers, but in practice, they won't let you put your name on the book, and you have to have a publisher up front, and there are other restrictions that make it impossible / not profitable.

    -AC

  67. You are incorrect, sir. by tlambert · · Score: 1

    You are incorrect, sir.

    It is a trivial experiment to initially cache the vp for /dev/null and /dev/zero, and then turn any reads or writes from either around immediately in the first function called out of the sysent[] table as soon as you see an fd pointing to one or the other, and never enter into the rest of the kernel. Then you can run the lmbench "system call speed" tests, with everything *but* the call site overhead factored out.

    The real problem here, though, is the perception that system call trap speed is actually somehow very important. This has grown out of the Linux community.

    Part of it is Larry McVoy's benchmark suite, designed to make Linux look better than other OSs; the perception that system call speed is important is based on the idea that since it can be measured, making it small as possible is worthwhile. As evidendence that this is actually jingoistic, the previous "null system call" implementation in LMBench was actually getppid(), and prior to that, it was getpid() (the result of getpid() is cacheable in user space in Libc). As other OSs have started turning the calls around faster, other calls have been selected to keep Linux ahead.

    The second part of the problem is deeper, and goes to how people program software being influenced by their execution environment, and their perception. This is more problematic. Whether it's the idea that it's OK to not bzero() a sockaddr_in before using it in a call to connect() (which works on Linux, but fails on most BSD derived systems because of the "mutual connect" case in the TCP state machine that isn't accounted for in the Linux implementation), or it's the idea that thread creation or system calls are "free", and therefore not to be avoided, or whether its something else, it ends in bad code.

    My canonical example for this is MySQL's client libraries, which end up making multple system calls (3 of them) per transaction, when they could get by with a single system call simply by buffering their data per client connection, rather than per thread in the MySQL server. This simple change would amount to a huge performance improvement on most OSs; Linux itself would see perhaps a 5% performance improvement from the change. But it would be an improvement. Yet people keep pointing to MySQL as a benchmark, when what they are measuring is actually a design problem in the database, not the OS on which it's running.

    The problem is that most people don't change code, once they get it to the point that it works well enough for their initial uses - and short of someone doing a deeper port than just a trivial "get it compiling and running" type port, you're not going to see the performance on *any* platform that wasn't the initial platform where the code was written and tuned. Or to put it another way, the person most capable of tuning the code is almost never going to be the person moving it to a new platform; so platform assumptions built into the implementation of the code - or worse, the design of the code - are going to bite everyone that moves it to a new platform.

    For thread creation - well, you know, there's a good reason that Apache pre-spwans anonymous workers, and applications that don't are probably assuming that thread or process creation is "free" or close enough that they don't care.

    Personally, I'm not that impresed with benchmarks that purport to measure kernel performance; other than I/O, where most of the time is spent waiting on whatever you're talking to, well written applications tend to spend their time in user space; I've heard that on MacOS X, it's usually more than 80% of the time in user space, and for multimedia or compute bound applications, it can get a lot higher than that.

    Microbenchmarks have their place; they are useful for comparing against yourself, and for detecting regressions before they become entrenched. But they aren't very useful for anything else, and exspecially not for comparing one OS to another.

    -- Terry

  68. "Its" versus "it's" by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    No, actually I don't think that's a correct usage of "it's" and "its."

    He should have used "it's" in both cases. (Because "it's" is a contraction of "it is," while "its" is the possessive.) If you read it to yourself, replacing the apostrophe with the individual words, it becomes more clear.

    For example, "whether it's why its slow..." I think should parse as 'whether it is why it is slow...' (which makes sense, if only as a fragment). So "its" in the article should correctly be "it's."

    You can't have "why its", because the word 'why' can't possess anything. (Well, you could potentially have a question -- "Why its?" -- but that doesn't make sense in the context of the summary.) Frankly, the author would have been best served by dumping all the contractions and just running with the extra words: the few extra characters would have been worth not making the reader have to sound out the sentence in order to figure out what was meant.

    I'd say the article is typical at 1 out of 3 correct, but still manages to be nonsensical for other reasons.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:"Its" versus "it's" by milimetric · · Score: 1

      I know that makes sense as well, but you're missing the other way it makes sense:

      "whether it is why its slow" as in "whether it is why its own slow something causes something something". Maybe he accidentally got it right, but it's still right nonetheless.

    2. Re:"Its" versus "it's" by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      Good point; I stand corrected on saying that your way couldn't be correct, it certainly could be in that context.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  69. Crapple Suxintosh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So is this post about the Crapple Suckintosh?