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Net Neutrality: Lobbyist McCurry Raises Ire

BBCWatcher writes "Mike McCurry, former Clinton Administration Press Secretary turned telecommunications industry lobbyist, reacts to his many new critics in the battle over Net Neutrality: "There are millions and millions of good Democrats who get paid by corporations," he said, "and I think every time we bash corporations, we just turn off people who are in the middle of the political spectrum." Among others, top political blogger Markos Moulitsas Zúniga responded swiftly to McCurry's latest assertions: "What a dishonest piece of sh[..] McCurry has become. This is an anti-corporatist jihad, is it? Is that why we are aligned with Microsoft, Google, and eBay? And when did the Christian Coalition and the Gun Owners of America join the 'left'? What a pathetic attempt to marginalize those of us working for net neutrality....McCurry is now a sad, sad, pathetic man.""

251 comments

  1. Democrats and Corporations by cynicalmoose · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Plenty of democrats are paid by corporations. But the unions continue to contribute a heck of a lot, as well as other groups who aren't great fans of corporate power. There's no reason for democrats to shy away from criticising corporations just because corporations fund some Dems, and some middle-of-the-roaders aren't opposed to corporation-bashing. OTOH, the reflexive bash-the-corporation responses that some Dems exhibit (and Republicans too - espc over oil prices, where "price gouging" - aka charging what the market will bear - gets screamed each time the gas price rises due to exogenous factors) do not make them seem very credible. It's hard to trust people who have routine scapegoats; it suggests they don't think enough.

    --
    Exercise your right not to vote. thinkoutside.org
    1. Re:Democrats and Corporations by demachina · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "gets screamed each time the gas price rises due to exogenous factors"

      Well I think its safe to say that oil prices are more than a little vulnerable to manipulation. Now its nearly impossible to tell who is doing all the manipulating, but I would guess big oil companies and OPEC governments certainly have a part. OPEC is after all a cartel which is designed to collude to set production and manipulate prices though they are often not very good at it any more.

      Whomever the mysterious oil "traders" are who drive the prices on commodity markets are probably most to blame. These are probably middlemen who are buying and selling oil futures and delight in pocketing a quick $1-10 dollars a barrel, for doing nothing, other than gambling with large sums of money. Everytime there is some bad news in an oil producting country, often news that had no real impact on oil supplies, they exploit it to push prices up and profit. It just happens that OPEC and Exxon Mobile make out like bandits when a barrel of oil goes for $70 too. It doesn't cost anything close to that to actually produce so more than half of that is pure profit. There is unfortunately very little real competition in the "free market" for oil thanks to OPEC, oil company consolidation and commodity markets. Thanks to consolidation Exxon Mobile now closely resembles Standard Oil. A key factor Exxon Mobile does play in gas prices is they do control refining and since refining was deregulated under Reagan the oil companies have colluded to keep refining capacity on a razors edge. Excess refining capacity eats in to their profits. Insufficient refining capacity is a convenient tool to keep supplies short which makes it easy for them to drive up prices. Commodity markets are probably the most malignant part of the system but they are not one you can easily fix.

      "Plenty of democrats are paid by corporations."

      If you want to fix the blame for the problem in our political system everyone should stop trying to fix it on Democrats or Republicans. The current cancer can mostly be traced to lobbyists who are corrupting both parties and the whole system, and the politicians they buy from both parties. Most of the lobbyists do in fact work for corporations though some for work for Unions and other special interest groups too.

      The single biggest source of corruption is the revolving door in government and the military, and Mike McCurray, lobbyist is a product of that system. You see people who work for the government and military don't get paid well so they don't take political appointments or spend years kissing ass for the pay. They do however take these jobs so they can spend their careers doing favors for lobbyists, again mostly corporate lobbyists but not always, and then when they retire they get gigantic payoffs where they land multimillion dollar executive positions and "consulting" jobs for those same special interests, or they become lobbyists themselves and charge their clients huge sums for their political connections and "access".

      You see that is the problem with Mike McCurray here, and Arie Fleischer and just about every other political appointee and politician turned lobbyist. McCurray doesn't actually care what the best public policy is on these issues. They are paid large sums to take the position of their benefactors, usually corprate, and then use their skills, personal influence and knowledge of the system to corrupt it to get the outcome they seek, an outcome which usually runs counter to the public interest as it does in this case.

      Medicare D, the prescription drug benefit, was the most expensive and vivid example of this corruption yet witnessed in America. The Medicare administrator was negotiating a high paying job with people who reaped a windfall from this bill, at the same time he was outright lying about the total cost of the bill to make sure it would pass to please his future employers, so it will cost taxpayer hundreds of billions more than was claimed when it was passed. The Congressman

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      @de_machina
    2. Re:Democrats and Corporations by demachina · · Score: 1

      I forgot to add that during the California electricity crisis a few years back the Bush administration and FARC refused to investigate charge of price fixing and gouging. They more or less said it was free markets at work, and to use your term "exogenous" forces at work. It was also California's fault for bad power generation policy.

      Well since then it came to light that energy traders at Enron, Dynegy and number of other electricity providers were in fact colluding to inflate the price and to create artificial shortages. I think its a bit naive to pretend that free markets are in fact always free. They are unfortunately a system that is a product of man and as a result susceptible to one of the most fundamental tendencies of men, greed.

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      @de_machina
    3. Re:Democrats and Corporations by johansalk · · Score: 1

      Well the republican bash-the-corporation over oil prices is just bullshit. It's what they call lip service. They say one thing to sedate the people and do the opposite. Just like those Bush speeches about this issue, what a load of bullshit.

    4. Re:Democrats and Corporations by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Bravo. Our encounter on the other thread would have lead me to believe otherwise, but this is a fantastic summary of events and explanation thereof.

      If you want to fix the blame for the problem in our political system everyone should stop trying to fix it on Democrats or Republicans. The current cancer can mostly be traced to lobbyists who are corrupting both parties and the whole system, and the politicians they buy from both parties. Most of the lobbyists do in fact work for corporations though some for work for Unions and other special interest groups too.

      Bingo. I'm left wondering how to fix the problem, let's ignore for a moment that no politician would ever vote to enact it do we forbid them to work for any company for X years after leaving office? Do we forbid them, their spouses and children? Where does it end?

      It's the downside to living in the free society that we enjoy, you and I are free to have a rancorous disagreement here on Slashdot and because our society is so free we can't stop the money from corrupting nearly every aspect of government.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    5. Re:Democrats and Corporations by demachina · · Score: 1

      A law or constitutional amendment eliminating deficit spending, would be a big help. The current system simply has to much free money for politicians to spend on pork and doing favors for lobbyists. If there were less money available to spend in Washington, and a mandate for greater fiscal discipline, there would be less corruption. The incentive to corrupt politicans would fade if there was no free money to be had. Follow that by cutting taxes until it hurts. It would be some serious pain but this country really needs to stop relying on government spending. The only value in deficit spending is its a tool to stimulate the economy during downturns but its been so abused under Reagan and Bush especially the benefits don't justify the danger any more. As we approach $9 trillion in debt just servicing the debt is becoming a crushing burden.

      I would be OK without outlawing paid lobbyists all together. They really aren't useful in crafting legislation in the public interest, since they cater to special interests. If an individual wants to lobby Congress go for it, just don't do it for pay from someone else. Really don't let lobbyists anywhere near the Capital when important legislation is up for a vote.

      I think corporations really should be completely cut out of government and elections, and to be fair unions too. We really should have a government of the people, as in individuals, and not of corporations and unions. There should public funding of elections or a hard cap on all campaign contributions of like a thousand dollars and only from individuals so no one gets special treatment because they have money to burn. A corporations sole motivation in approaching politicians is to do things to improve their profitability and government really should be doing its best to neither impede nor enhance corprate bottom lines. If our country is based on free markets it would be nice if they were really free instead of politicians constantly picking winners and losers. Government should regulate corporations to prevent corruption and abuse, and maintain some basic order, but otherwise not subsidize or hinder them. Government dependence on contractors is still a huge intractable problem that drives corruption. Replacing them with civil servants isn't a good solution either.

      Its a much harder problem to get people to step up for public service, if you rob them of the huge payoffs when they return to the private sector. You run the risk you will only have rich people take the jobs, people who don't need the money. Some of our greatest public servants have been the rich but it would be nice to have ordinary people serve in Congress. I'd almost say we should term limit the hell out of people in Congress, like 1-3 terms for the House and 1 term in the Senate, maybe 1 term for President, get rid of professional politicians, and figure out a way to really get ordinary people in there, who aren't making a career out of it. Ideally you would want them to spend most of their time repealing old, bad laws and refraining from writing new ones, unless absolutely necessary. Our politicians write way more laws than they should and inject far to much special interest crap in to them. Laws should be simple, stay on topic and be done only when really necessary. You do need to maintain a corp of civil servants who are experienced in day to day operation of the government, in economics, defense and foreign affairs. It is near to impossible to get the best people to step up to do this if they don't have a huge payoff down the road some place.

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      @de_machina
  2. This is a shocker ?? by Crashmarik · · Score: 0, Troll

    A clinton administration official demonstrates that his only loyalty was to the dollar. The worst you could say was he emulated his bosses.

    Next thing you'll tell me is that Al Gore Didn't really invent the internet, or Bill Clinton went out and lobbied for an arab nation to take over Americas ports. I would be Shocked just Shocked.

  3. he is exactly right by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "There are millions and millions of good Democrats who get paid by corporations,"

    Yup, by his definition they are "good".. By the rest of us they are paid off hooligans trading personal wealth and power for our freedoms and rights, and our freedoms and rights are a no cost giveaway for these guys.

    Good is a relative term and it has been proven for thousands of years that those in power have a very different view of good and evil than the rest of the population.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:he is exactly right by HoosierPeschke · · Score: 1

      I just think it's funny to assume that Elected, sitting in the House or Senate Democrats are paid by corporations. While it may be true that part of an elected official's salary is paid by corporations through taxes, don't I also pay elected officials? Oh, we're talking about hush hush <wink /> <wink /> type stuff, huh?

      --
      Mr. Universe: "They can't stop the signal, Mal. They can never stop the signal."
  4. [OT] New skin by cynicalmoose · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It's the result of the competition for a new skin that we had a bit ago. See cmdrtaco's journal.

    Frankly, I didn't think this was the best of the final 3 (to me, there was clearly a nicer skin).

    What I'm really waiting for, is our new-found CSS capabilities used to allow user-selectable stylesheets. It can't be too hard; after all, they hacked the stylesheet for April 1 (when it went all pink).

    --
    Exercise your right not to vote. thinkoutside.org
  5. And it's hard to trust by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 2, Informative

    Corporations that
    -Have explicitly said they plan to make Google et al pay twice to use "their" pipes
    -Have already blocked e.g. Vonage
    -Have (unconfirmed, someone check) reserved 80% of the bandwidth in their fiber for their own TV service
    -Have constantly said "There's no problem; the free market will work it out". Which to me translates as "We just want to make sure we have the power to degrade everyone's net service in order to benefit ourselves; we're not actually going to do if of course..."

    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    1. Re:And it's hard to trust by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      -Have (unconfirmed, someone check) reserved 80% of the bandwidth in their fiber for their own TV service Ummm that coax cable that runs into your house serving you calbe internet does the exact same thing. I don't see whats the problem with running fiber TV service with internet piggybacking. So as long as the actual internet connection is open.

    2. Re:And it's hard to trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a problem when you restrict the bandwidth even while you aren't offering what it's presumably been restricted for. It's also a problem when you advertise a certain throughput and knowingly can't or actively won't deliver it.

    3. Re:And it's hard to trust by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1
      I think the problem would be when you roll out your fiber-delivered TV service, the best that any internet-based competing service could achieve is 1/4 the speed your own service gets. The competitor will look "broken" by comparison.

      Now, if the subscriber has the option to buy that bandwidth, without your TV service, then heshe can access GBC (Google Broadcasting Corporation) at a competitive speed. And your service competes with GBC on a level playing field.

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    4. Re:And it's hard to trust by Sandor+at+the+Zoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who was it that laid all the fiber?

      I'm not being facetious; I'm trying to figure out the argument that Verizon (for example) spends billions to lay fiber to everyone's house, and then they should sell access to that bandwidth on par with what they would use it for.

      Shouldn't they be able to recoup the cost somehow? Why should they be required to subsidize competitors?

      Having said that, I think that once they sell internet service at a given bandwidth (15 Mbps on my FIOS plan), they should not be allowed to degrade service for Vonage or other IP service providers.

    5. Re:And it's hard to trust by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1
      "Verizon (for example) spends billions to lay fiber to everyone's house"..."Why should they be required to subsidize competitors"

      Poor verizon. So unfair for them to invest their hard-earned money only to have the governments that granted them a geographic monopoly actually start enforcing the common-carrier rules that have been on the books for 30 years or so.

      Oh wait: Was that our hard-earned money?

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    6. Re:And it's hard to trust by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      All those corporate contributions are obviously bribes. They should be illegal - corporations shouldn't be allowed to bribe any public official.

      But some of them are stupid bribes. When the official doesn't produce results for the corporate briber, the official has not done anything wrong, except maybe allow the appearance of doing something wrong, which costs the system in ease of telling the difference.

      When the official continues (or starts) to work against that corporate interest or agenda, though receiving a failed bribe, that official has gotten funded by the corporation to work against that corporation. When the result serves the people, and not just some corporate competitor, that official has my respect for doing it right.

      When officials get bribed by corporations, but work against them, including outlawing corporate bribery, they're heroes.

      FWIW, we are a nation founded explicitly on distrust of the government. Anyone whose politics is based on trust is a sucker and a liability. The best officials to elect are those most easily caught and damaged when they do something wrong. That's accountability, which has been reduced (in the words of George Bush Jr) to an "accountability moment" one day every two or four years. Between which politicians rely on "trust" to avoid getting caught.

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      make install -not war

    7. Re:And it's hard to trust by MooUK · · Score: 1

      I may be wrong, but I thought most of the money for fiber in the US came from the government in the form of tax cuts and grants and such?

    8. Re:And it's hard to trust by john82 · · Score: 1

      All those corporate contributions are obviously bribes. They should be illegal - corporations shouldn't be allowed to bribe any public official.

      To be fair, can we agree to amend to the following:

      All those [corporate | union] contributions are obviously bribes. They should be illegal - [corporations | unions] shouldn't be allowed to bribe any public official.

    9. Re:And it's hard to trust by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Unions are corporations.

      To be "fair", or rather to be protected from abuse, no one should be allowed to bribe any public official.

      Humans (and only humans, not "artificial persons" like corporations of any kind) have to be allowed to donate money to politics. Otherwise, only the "media incumbents" will be known to voters enough to get elected. A real campaign finance law would allow only human American citizens to donate money only to the race itself, drawn upon equally by everyone registered on the ballot. Including the candidate themself, so rich people can't just buy what they need to get elected. The elections commissions escrowing the money could keep any remaining after the election to subsidize their budget overseeing the election.

      Watch as everyone on the ballot gets an equal chance to communicate with voters, and the amount spent on promotion plunges towards the minimum required to get their message out. Watch as the political campaign consultant class shrinks, especially among those dedicated to the bribery industry. And watch the bribery plummet as its legal laundering venue disappears, disconnecting any contributions from any benefit to any specific candidate.

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      make install -not war

    10. Re:And it's hard to trust by Moofie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I see what you're after, but that's not going to solve the problem.

      What if I really, really want Joe Smith to be elected, and I want that so badly that I'm willing to buy a TV commercial for him? I should be free to do so.

      And as long as that freedom exists, money will continue to pervert the process. I'm not convinced that less liberty is worth less perversion of the system.

      Of course, now we've got both.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    11. Re:And it's hard to trust by Danse · · Score: 1

      And as long as that freedom exists, money will continue to pervert the process. I'm not convinced that less liberty is worth less perversion of the system.

      I'm convinced that a corrupt system is worse for the preservation of my rights in general than the loss of the right to buy an election for a candidate that I like. As long as bribery is legal, then the system will be corrupt and for sale to the highest bidder. I'm far from convinced that the highest bidder has my interests, or the interests of the country in mind over their own interests.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    12. Re:And it's hard to trust by Moofie · · Score: 1

      I do see your point. I haven't yet figured out how to reconcile maximum liberty for the participants with maximum integrity for the process.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    13. Re:And it's hard to trust by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      So you buy a TV commercial for him. If you don't coordinate with him, you can say whatever you want - as long as your commercial includes the citation of who you are. That leaves Smith's opponents to reply with TV they buy with money they do raise. If you do coordinate, or you don't cite who you are, you're exposed to legal liability, and thereby bad publicity for your candidate. The Internet makes it much cheaper, easier and much more likely for voters to find out about those "friends", and reporters, too.

      There's no way to eliminate the influence of money without limiting people's expression of their money. But we're talking about alternatives. Donations to a race rather than to a candidate minimize the bribery of cash in a candidate's pockets. They also minimize the unequal expenditure on promotion, though they don't eliminate it.

      When you look at campaign finance and expense, rarely do two candidates spend the about same amount to get close results. Big money gets spent to compensate for big differences. The minimization of unequal promotion budgets will allow those differences to be more obvious. And outside compensations will be less effective when they're provided by people who are themselves a liability.

      The system is now rigged for razor-thin margins at great cost. Like any security measure that can restore the big margins to legitimate operators by disproportionately multiplying costs for attackers, without creating significant barriers of legitimate access, the finance reform I describe is compelling. If the bad guys weren't running the system, it would be installed by now.

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      make install -not war

    14. Re:And it's hard to trust by Moofie · · Score: 1

      "If you don't coordinate with him, you can say whatever you want - as long as your commercial includes the citation of who you are."

      That's not at all a bad idea. However, "coordinate" and "who you are" are two little items that are almost guaranteed to be rife for corruption.

      Your proposal is indeed a good one. Unfortunately, as you point out, the system has been gerrymandered by both sides to guarantee one thing: Whoever's in power, they'll have either a D or an R after their name.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    15. Re:And it's hard to trust by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      "Coordination" is already being tested out in the "527 committees" which can spend money on a candidate's behalf as long as they don't coordinate with the candidate or their campaign.

      "Who you are" is not that hard to establish once only live humans are allowed to spend that money - corporations would be prohibited from those expenses, just as they'd be prohibited from any other public political expenses. That person would have to register with the election committee, just as 527 committees register now. Once exposed to legal liability for fraud without the benefit of a corporation's protections, a lot fewer people will front for others, and will be more easily caught.

      The point is to make things better. Politics is a business of endless incremental improvements and setbacks, with occasional watersheds that were approached gradually. Distributed and archived communications like the Internet and the Web rebalance the organizational efficiencies in favor of the people. When we use them to get to clear common goals, we'll get there. My cynicism shadows my hope only in worrying if it will be too late, and there will be nothing left to win back for ourselves.

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      make install -not war

    16. Re:And it's hard to trust by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      Verizon spent the money to install all the equiptment necessary to provide DSL service in the CO of my small town yet refuses to offer the fscking service.

      How in the hell does that make sense? They offer DSL to NO ONE in the town - not even the homes that are 25 feet away from the CO. The sad/funny part is that most in town, when they view their bills online, are told they qualify for DSL at least till they try to order it.

  6. He's talking about employees, though. by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1

    Not democratic reps. Accepting bribes etc.

    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    1. Re:He's talking about employees, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So an employee that does something shady for his boss is exempt from this?

      You have morals, simply because you trade $$$ for giving up your morals and sell my credit information to another company or do other shady things does not make you any different than a Senator who has disney shoving $1000.00 bills in his pockets like mad.

  7. So it's official now? by Fhqwhgadss · · Score: 2, Funny

    Is this official confirmation that not only do the corporations run the GOP, but also the "Democratic" party? I'm glad we have it out in the open.

    --
    How does a 7-person democracy cut a pie? Into 4 pieces.
    1. Re:So it's official now? by kevin+lyda · · Score: 1

      Political parties are made up of the people who show up to them. If you don't like that the GOP or the Dems are "run by corporations" then get active in one of them.

      Either that or please offer some cheese with your pointless whines.

      --
      US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
    2. Re:So it's official now? by Fhqwhgadss · · Score: 1
      The problem with actively participating in either of the US political parties is that their primary (and pretty much only) goal is to beat the other candidate in the next election. This stems from the first-to-the pole election process that is amplified by the electoral college and gerrymandering. The senior members of both parties need not concern themselves with the needs of the people as long as both parties consistently ignore those needs. No amount of "participation" at the grassroots level will change this because any effort that does not lead to "beating the other candidate" is considered wasted effort (just as voting for a different party is considered a wasted vote).

      Consider the 2004 presidential elections where the 2 candidates were virtually indistinguishable from each other despite the absurd rhetoric that both parties bandied about to the contrary. Can you identify which candidate was the rich, white, male, Yale-educated war criminal? How about which candidate is a member of the Skull and Bones?

      Until something drastic changes, or unless there's a compelling reason to vote at the local level, I'm casting my vote for apathy by contributing to low voter turnout.

      --
      How does a 7-person democracy cut a pie? Into 4 pieces.
    3. Re:So it's official now? by dsgitl · · Score: 1

      I think you're wrong. For better or for worse, the Republican Party since Goldwater has been committed to establishing a permanent Republican majority. This has gone beyond just winning two-year and four-year elections. They have installed sympathetic judges at all levels of government, had been proactive in gerrymandering congressional districts (and that's not to say Democrats haven't; it's just that the GOP is better), and have worked much harder to understand language and how best to influence the American people.

      While I'm certainly tired of doomsday scenarios involving married gays burning flags and how that would piss off Benjamin Franklin, you certainly can't argue that that kind of rehtoric gets people in the ballot box. Again, for better or for worse.

      And yes, you can say that Bush and Kerry were both rich white guys. But do you really think that John Kerry would be instigating war with Iran? Or repeal of the estate tax? Or Medicare Part D? Or tax cuts? These decisions matter, and there were definitely clear differences between the two candidates had you taken the time to look.

    4. Re:So it's official now? by kevin+lyda · · Score: 1

      You're talking about one office - the head of one branch of government.

      There are other offices. And right now there are people challenging what you point out. Ned Lamont is challenging Lieberman in CT. Winograd is challenging Harmen in CA. Tasini is challenging Clinton in NY. And Howard Dean is executing a 50 state strategy to re-energise local Democratic parties across America. Not to invest in individual campaigns but to invest in the party - to give people a place to debate and discuss ideas.

      You're apathetic because you choose to be apathetic. People are acting on the things you mention. They need help. If you want to be apathetic and not help, that's your choice. But accept your own responsibility for that choice, don't blame outside forces for your own self-imposed apathy.

      --
      US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
    5. Re:So it's official now? by (trb001) · · Score: 1

      As Kos said, there are corporations on both sides of this debate. If you want to argue that the government is siding with the telcos, i.e. the corporations with the larger bankroll, fine, but I think even that's a tenuous point that has yet to be made in this case.

      FWIW, because they would be removing impediments to how the telcos do business, this sounds to me like deregulation...I have a hard time opposing that in most cases. It may suck for the consumer in the short term, but it will end up creating competition in the market.

      --trb

    6. Re:So it's official now? by Mo+Bedda · · Score: 1

      FWIW, because they would be removing impediments to how the telcos do business, this sounds to me like deregulation...I have a hard time opposing that in most cases. It may suck for the consumer in the short term, but it will end up creating competition in the market.

      How exactly will it create comptition when telcos have legislated monopolies?

      Net Neutrality is really about preventing the telcos from using their existing monopolies to restrict competition and innovation on the Internet. The telcos would like to shut down things like VoIP, and prevent new services from arrising which undercut their existing services or services they would like to offer. There is nothing currently preventing the telcos from selling as much bandwidth, from anywhere to anywhere, to anyone they like. There is nothing preventing them from carving up their pipes however they like.

      Net Neutrality serves to keep the Internet a more or less open market. It prevents the access cartels from using their monopolies to control the Internet through extortion. Compare the rate of innovation in the U.S. cellular market compared to the Internet market. From a free market perspective, I see no reason why it is better to allow the telcos to make themselves the gatekeepers of the Internet.

      If you want to de-regulate telecom in the U.S., you need to think a lot bigger than simply opposing new regulations. Allowing existing government backed cartels to raise artificial barriers to entry to markets on the Internet does not seem like a pro free market position.

    7. Re:So it's official now? by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      I live in about the only part of Texas that still has regulated electrical power, and guess what, we have either the lowest or next to lowest rates in the state while areas that have a 'free' market have been having rate increase of 5-10% per year over the last 3-5 years.

      And it isn't hurting investment in our subgrid. AEP/SWEPCO is in the process of siting and building new base load generating capacity to the tune of 500 million to 1 billion invested.

  8. You are who you quote? by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 3, Funny

    The Kox piece has useful, good info in it. Give it a read. W quotes Jesus; that doesn't make him (W) God, though.

    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    1. Re:You are who you quote? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nor does it make W a schizophrenic who died 2000 years ago.

      One can only wish...

    2. Re:You are who you quote? by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      The Devil quoted the Bible. Anybody who's read the Bible beyond the Cliff's Notes should know that.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  9. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Funny

    No comrade the Dailykos is a counterrevolutionary reactionary blog. Clearly his allignment with politically recidivist elements shows he is nothing but a tool of control for the masses. Clearly you should be modded flamebait for making a statement so devoid of observable evidence.

  10. Two things... by CashCarSTAR · · Score: 4, Interesting

    #1. Yes, DailyKos is a Democratic site. But at the same time, the DKos community is pretty much committed to lessening the influence of a whole wide variety of interest groups from the political process and increasing the power that the individual citizen has, on both sides of the aisle. From Unions straight through to Corporations.

    #2. Generally speaking, wider "left" political blogsophere supports net neutrality very strongly. And the reason for that, is actually a traditionally centrist viewpoint, namely in order to maximize the effect and forces of a free and open market. Eliminating net neutrality is a great threat to putting a full stop to innovation in business and technology on the internet. It stops new players and technologies from taking those first baby steps out.

    You have one area of business with high barriers to entry and a few companies, and you have another area of business with much lower barriers to entry and new companies forming every day?

    Which is the important one to protect here?

    1. Re:Two things... by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Funny I don't remember when Redstate.com became part of the left.

      The motivations are different but the results are the same.

    2. Re:Two things... by CashCarSTAR · · Score: 1

      My apologies. The intention wasn't to say that only the left side of things supports net neutrality. Only to respond to what McCurry said about an "Anti-corporate jihad" going on between "liberals and centrists".

      In reality, this is one of those issues that there's two sides. You have the DC/WallStreet community vs. The Rest Of Us.

    3. Re:Two things... by Alfred,+Lord+Tennyso · · Score: 1

      Both sides lay claim to the center in the net neutrality debate. (I hesitate to call it a debate; at least among the technical community on Slashdot it's considered largely settled, waiting only for the politicians to do whatever they'll do with it.)

      The ISPs argue that net neutrality violates markets, since they should be free to charge whatever the technology will allow them to charge, and theoretically passing the savings on to the consumer. That is, an ISP which throttles some sites and gets money out of others could under-charge an ISP which is truly neutral, and that the market should be allowed to decide.

      But since the ISPs are perilously close to a monopoly, their market argument is possibly fallacious. If a customer has only the phone company and the cable company, or possibly just one, then their "choice" may be no choice at all.

      From a political standpoint, that gives Democrats an opportunity to appear to be pro-market and to cast their opponents as pro-business, which is not the same thing. Pulling that off with their existing base will prove a challenge. They may be able to make the case to unions that markets are good while opposing the power of businesses to exploit workers and customers through monopolies, but some unions (the airlines, the auto workers) have shown themselves willing to close the company rather than reduce their power. (Admittedly, it takes two to play that game, with the corporate executives taking large separation compensation while screwing both the workers and the shareholders.) Teachers' unions are similarly reluctant to allow market forces to influence the way they work.

      And they'll have to find a way to reconcile any move towards markets with the compassion they've traditionally shown towards the poor, which are laudable but a drain to the economy, and therefore ammunition to anybody who accuses them of being anti-market. There's still a strong socialist-leaning contingent in the party, and that'll be a drag on any pro-market moves.

      Best of luck to them. With neither party really running on fiscal and economic thoughtfulness, it may well be the Democrats' turn in the upcoming elections. We'll see if they use it wisely.

    4. Re:Two things... by CashCarSTAR · · Score: 1

      Pulling that off with their existing base will prove a challenge.

      Not as much as you'd think, and that was part of my point. There's nothing anti-business, per se, about the Democratic base, as it exists right now. There's things about how there needs to be a balance or society and the economy will have serious problems in the long run, but that's not anti-business. That's just being pragmatic.

      The problem with just abandoning the poor, is what do you expect the poor to do? Find jobs? There's not enough jobs to go around, unfortunately. (Again, that's something I'd like to change). The reason we care about the poor, New Deal-style, is to allow a capitalist economy to exist in the first place, through making people not have to be so desperate about things.

      Right now the DNC has as their chairman someone who's very fiscally conservative. And he was widely supported by the people who really ARE the base right now. So take that for what it's worth.

  11. Zúniga's Full Response by pNutz · · Score: 0, Troll
    Here is the unabbreviated, uncensored response by Markos Moulitsas Zúniga

    You swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless bag of filth. You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you.

    You're a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon.

    You are a bleating foal, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts who sired you and then killed themselfs in recognition of what they had done.

    I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at the very thought of you. You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You are a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. And did I mention you smell?

    Try to edit your responses of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly.

    You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs.

    You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid, nasty and profane. You are foul and disgusting. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. Even sheep won't have sex with you. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot.

    And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake?

    You are a waste of flesh. You have no rhythm. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are sour and senile. You are a disease, you puerile one-handed slack-jawed drooling meatslapper.

    On a good day you're a half-wit. You remind me of drool. You are deficient in all that lends character. You have the personality of wallpaper. You are dank and filthy. You are asinine and benighted. You are the source of all unpleasantness. You spread misery and sorrow wherever you go.

    You smarmy lagerlout git. You bloody woofter sod. Bugger off, pillock. You grotty wanking oik artless base-court apple-john. You clouted boggish foot-licking twit. You dankish clack-dish plonker. You gormless crook-pated tosser. You churlish boil-brained clotpole ponce. You cockered bum-bailey poofter. You craven dewberry pisshead cockup pratting naff. You gob-kissing gleeking flap-mouthed coxcomb. You dread-bolted fobbing beef-witted clapper-clawed flirt-gill.

    You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you, and I wish you would go away.

    I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mer

    --
    Death and danger are my various breads and various butters.
    1. Re:Zúniga's Full Response by kevin+lyda · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      "I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you."

      Just thought I'd point out that Kos is a lawyer...

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    2. Re:Zúniga's Full Response by pNutz · · Score: 1

      Oops. That would be Guy Macon, at the real site for this is here.

      --
      Death and danger are my various breads and various butters.
  12. Re:Markos Moulitsas Zúniga by kevin+lyda · · Score: 1

    Your point is?

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  13. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by furasato · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Really? Well, when a few contracters working for Blackwell were killed, burned, then hanged in Fallujah while guarding a simple shipment of a cooking oven, Markos's reply was "f'em, let them hang". Wishing death upon another. Sorry, but Markos is pathetic. That said, the net needs to be left alone, and run as it is now.

  14. Not helping! by ZSpade · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that quotes like "What a dishonest piece of sh[..] McCurry has become." do nothing but make you look like your foaming at the mouth. If you read the rest of that bloggers post (another slashdot member posted it above) you'll really see my point. Argument is good, but uncontrolled and uncensored anger will never be taken seriously in politics.

    Of course I agree with this blogger, but I don't think he is doing our cause any good by spouting off like this. On Slashdot we always poke fun at corporate bigwigs with anger issues(look at Steve Balmer), why should bloggers be any different. That said, I of course agree with net neutrality like anybody in their right mind would... unless of course they work for said corporations.

    --
    Go ahead and call me unreliable; reliable is just a synonym for predictable.
    1. Re:Not helping! by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1
      "If you read the rest of that bloggers post (another slashdot member posted it above) you'll really see my point."

      I think you might be confused, and talking about the Ultimate Flame? That wasn't really Zuniga's complete answer. It was a joke.

      As to controlling our anger, I sort of agree. But I also understand perfectly when people reach a tipping poing and get emotional. This article starts with "That's it. Burn DC to the ground. " but becomes a very well-argued piece.

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    2. Re:Not helping! by ZSpade · · Score: 1

      That may be true. Looking at it in context now it's easier to see that. It's almost impossible to see that if you were not familiar with Zuniga's blogs though. That is, it was taken out of context, in a way. That said, the original point doesn't change, but perhaps loses some substantiation.

      --
      Go ahead and call me unreliable; reliable is just a synonym for predictable.
    3. Re:Not helping! by ergo98 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      If you read the rest of that bloggers post (another slashdot member posted it above) you'll really see my point.

      You mean the manufactured, fictional troll that someone posted above? Perhaps you should be more careful in what you choose to believe.

    4. Re:Not helping! by tbannist · · Score: 0, Troll

      Anger does not invalidate a message. Pissing other people off does not make you "right". The bloggers evaluation of the lobbyist in question is correct, and you really should step back and think about the fact that there are thousands of people just like him. They are paid to corrupt your government to benefit their employers. It's their job and it pays well because it works. You have a government that is covered in leeches, it's going to take drastic measures to fix this.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    5. Re:Not helping! by PhoenixFlare · · Score: 1

      If you read the rest of that bloggers post (another slashdot member posted it above) you'll really see my point. Argument is good, but uncontrolled and uncensored anger will never be taken seriously in politics.

      The giant flame posted above? Markos didn't write that. Rather, it was a slightly altered copy of the flame to end all flames which the writer helpfully included an oh-so-obvious link to down at the very bottom of the mass of text.

  15. LAtimes.com requires registration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Article text via bugmenot:

    WASHINGTON -- Former White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry is no stranger to well-aimed political attacks. After all, he held down the briefing room podium for Bill Clinton during the height of the Monica Lewinsky scandal, a task he compared to being a "human pinata."

    He was called "a stonewalling administration mouthpiece" who "perfected a plethora of dodges" and "was a master at speaking with charm, wit, self-deprecation and ease -- yet saying nothing."

    ADVERTISEMENT
    But even McCurry admitted surprise at the verbal shellacking he's received on the Internet lately. More shocking to McCurry is the end of the political spectrum doing most of the name calling: his traditionally supportive left.

    It's all because of his latest job working for AT&T Inc., BellSouth Corp. and some other communications companies to shape public opinion on perhaps the most controversial aspect of telecom legislation moving through Congress.

    "I've faced far worse in the past," McCurry said of the criticism. "Although the bad names I got called were from the other side."

    McCurry is co-chairman of Hands Off the Internet, a group arguing against so-called Net neutrality rules -- federal regulations preventing phone and cable companies from charging extra to zip some high-bandwidth services through their wires faster than others.

    The group is squarely in the middle of a brewing battle over the issue against big Internet companies, such as Google Inc., Yahoo Inc. and Microsoft Corp. With many congressional Democrats and liberal bloggers supporting Net neutrality, McCurry finds himself opposing his historical allies.

    In a highly charged election year, McCurry has been branded a turncoat, a Democratic Jedi lost to the dark side at a time of looming crisis across the Internet.

    The intense and personal flogging -- partly provoked by McCurry's sharp responses -- shows how contentious Net neutrality has become for some Internet users.

    He's been called a "sellout" and "stooge," a purveyor of "dishonest hackery" and "classic flack misdirection," and an "industry sock puppet."

    "I think people are reacting not just to the issue but to their disdain for a top-tier Democrat shilling in such an overt way for big-money interests," said David Sirota, a liberal political blogger and author of "Hostile Takeover: How Big Money and Corruption Conquered Our Government -- and How We Take It Back."

    McCurry said the response to his new job demonstrated the "constant jihad" of 21st century politics and the ongoing struggle between the liberal and centrist wings of the Democratic Party.

    "There are millions and millions of good Democrats who get paid by corporations," he said, "and I think every time we bash corporations, we just turn off people who are in the middle of the political spectrum."

    McCurry is one of those Democrats.

    After leaving the White House in 1998, McCurry became a partner at Public Strategies Group in Washington, developing communications strategies for corporate and nonprofit clients.

    He signed on earlier this year with a coalition of telecommunications companies battling an effort by large Internet companies to get Congress to pass rules that would outlaw any preferential treatment of data over the Internet.

    Some phone company executives want to charge extra to guarantee fast and reliable delivery of video and other data-heavy applications.

    As word spread of McCurry's role, bloggers started ripping him.

    Last month, McCurry ripped back.

    "On Net neutrality, I feel like screaming 'puh-leeeze,' " he wrote on the Huffington Post, where he sometimes blogs. "The Internet is not a free public good. It is a bunch of wires and switches and connections and pipes and it is creaky."

    He slammed his critics for "worshipping" Vint Cerf, a co-founder of the Internet and now a Google executive who has testified to Congress about the need for Net neutrality rules. McCurry said Cerf had "a clear

    1. Re:LAtimes.com requires registration by MrNonchalant · · Score: 1

      I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tagging "registrationrequired".

    2. Re:LAtimes.com requires registration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Mr Sohn also commented that the new slashdot redesign "sucks balls" and that a "retarded myspace kiddie could of done a better job.""

      PLease tell me I'm not the first to notice this?

    3. Re:LAtimes.com requires registration by idonthack · · Score: 1

      I doubt Mr. Sohn reads Slashdot.

      --
      Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
  16. Middle of the spectrum? by chippo · · Score: 0, Redundant

    It would seem to me that he's suggesting that people who are half way between the Republicans and the Democrats are the middle of the political spectrum.

    From my vantage point, I can hardly see the difference between the USA's 2 main parties.

    1. Re:Middle of the spectrum? by Gonoff · · Score: 1

      I think, to most of the world, the US Democrats sound like our conservatives.
      We would vote for our conservatives, but not so many would vote for them if they were like yours...

      Of course, we could be getting a misrepresentation from those notorious socialists in Fox news.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
  17. Am I the only one who thinks this? by Hackie_Chan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Seems to me that Daily Kos is a website that's brought up quite frequently in Slashdot (political) stories these days, many times for an opinionated view. Why is this the case and not with, let's say - Redstate? I know that Kos is a reader of Slashdot, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.

    --

    What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
    1. Re:Am I the only one who thinks this? by hsmith · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I take it you haven't noticed the quasi-socialist bent to slashdot. toe the line of hating corporations and big business while enjoying the benefits of them! Big pay checks, fast computers, internet backbones, good jobs. See, it is ok to hate business but benefit from it, not hypocritical at all!

    2. Re:Am I the only one who thinks this? by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 2, Funny

      'Effing liberal bias. I want to see Creation Science stories! And stories on how abortion causes breast cancer! And how we shouldn't prevent venereal disease because it would encourage people to have sex!

      What do we want? Equal access! When do we want it? Now! End the Slashdot liberal bias!

    3. Re:Am I the only one who thinks this? by tbannist · · Score: 1

      I may like the fact that fire keeps my house warm, but most people are smart enough to realize they don't want to hug the fire. Fire is very useful but if you're not careful you'll get burnt.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    4. Re:Am I the only one who thinks this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe because no one capable of rational thought takes Red State seriously after they stuck with Ben Domenech to the bitter end of the plagiarism scandal? For me personally it was when I was banned from the site after calling out someone for posting something explicitly racist. Maybe that is another reason Red State isn't taken seriously, it's not much different than Little Green Footballs in content, people just express their hate with less vitriol.

    5. Re:Am I the only one who thinks this? by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      That is a great question. Thanks for posting the link to http://www.redstate.com/ because it is a great site and I intend to visit it daily.

    6. Re:Am I the only one who thinks this? by ScrewYouTroll · · Score: 1

      screw you.

  18. And what one will the few, protected by barriers.. by robbak · · Score: 1

    ...want to destroy???

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
  19. This is a surprise? by Slartibartfast · · Score: 4, Insightful

    C'mon, folks: the words "press secretary" are simply code for "weasel." Anyone who thinks otherwie -- and mind you, this is totally regardless of party affiliation -- is being silly. The one and only press secretary for whom I hold any respect is Reagen's, one Jim Brady. During the assassination attempt, he was shot in the head, with substantial brain damange. The work he's done to control the unfettered access to handguns is nothing short of remarkable; he and his wife are to be commended. All other press secreteries are simply PR figureheads, who never -- not ever -- present their own views, if, indeed, they even have any. (A fine and juicy movie that deals with similar people is Thank You for Smoking. See it.)

    1. Re:This is a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course prior to that he own machine guns, somthing that most American's think is extreme.

      His wife let their name be coop'ed by a couple of former CIA guys who set up a very secretive front group called Hang Gun Control International. In almost every news story they have championed the perpetrator would have been banned from owning fire arms under the laws that had already existed. Why weren't those laws enforced? Why aren't the laws we have now enforced? Who's children are they actually trying to save?

    2. Re:This is a surprise? by AllahCanSuckMyBalls · · Score: 1

      Conversely, the one and only press secretary I despise is Jim Brady. They're all paid mouthpieces, sure - I don't know why anyone would expect differently. However, Brady went above and beyond by devoting his live to overturning part of the Bill of Rights. I never particularly cared for George Stephanopoulos, but I don't think he'd try to repeal an amendment just because it was personally inconvenient.

      --
      Hot up-burqa pix!
    3. Re:This is a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please note that Mr. Brady, as the chosen spokesman of a decidedly anti-gun-control administration, had no apparent objection to crazies arming themselves and wandering the streets until one of them shot him. The old joke: "what is a liberal? - a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet" can be restated as: "what is anti-gun-control advocate? a gun-control zealot who hasn't been shot yet"

    4. Re:This is a surprise? by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

      "...with substantial brain damage."

      Yep, his brain was damaged. This is proven by his efforts to illegally take guns from citizens.

      "The work he's done to control the unfettered access to handguns is nothing..."

      Not quite. It is an embarrassment to our country and a stab in the back of our Bill of Rights and democracy in general.

      --
      Libertas in infinitum
  20. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wish conservatives would stop attacking the messenger instead of the message. Look, are you for or against the message daily kos is saying?

    If the message is correct, it shouldn't matter who's saying it.

  21. Re:And what one will the few, protected by barrier by CashCarSTAR · · Score: 1

    Offhand....

    The biggies I can see are VoIP and Streaming Audio/Video. Those are the obvious ones.

    However, from comments the telco industry has made, it seems that they're going to play hardball with this. So more than likely any business who tries to operate via the internet will need to pay the telcos to be able to do it.

    The problem I see isn't with for example, EBay being charged. The problem I see is the sucessor to Ebay getting charged, and because of that is unable to get off the ground.

  22. Ummm... birds of a feather? by Slartibartfast · · Score: 1

    Hello? "Birds of a feather flock together." Social groups, networks, etc., tend to attract like-minded people. And guess what? Slashdot works on submissions from its readerbase. If you see a good story on a site, SUBMIT IT. Regardless of political affiliation. If you don't submit, you can't acq... no, wait, that doesn't work. But don't bitch if you ain't submitting.

  23. This is not a Left Vs Right issue by tlabetti · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One of the big mistakes of the Net Neutrality discussion is that is has boiled down to a Legislation v No Legislation battle.

    If you take away the legislation part of this discussion I'm not sure that the lefties and free market guys wouldn't swap positions on Net Neutrality.

    The push for legislation has steered this discussion more than the issue itself.

    1. Re:This is not a Left Vs Right issue by Draracle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most political issues are not a Left vs Right issue. Unfortunately many people find that the comfort of a simple left/right alignment releases them from the responsibility of actual critical thought. The argument get boiled down to a fight between the "loony-left" and the "self-righteous right" -- and I am sure the politicians would like to keep it that way. As long as the public keeps using this oversimplification (and often gross misrepresentation) of political theory, they policies will never be subject to much real thought. Both sides will just spew insults and half-truths to support or tear-down the position. In general, the moment people start claiming the leftness or rightness of a political theory I simply tune out, because obviously this person isn't interested in a conversation. The idea has already been pigeon-holed and the merit of the idea has been decided by the political group pitched it. So go back to your political demi-gods, get your brain back, and stop judging in Red vs. Blue, or left vs. right, and THINK!

  24. Surely, there is no need for it? by robbak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As I see it, there is already many ways to purchase better access to your site. You can set up multiple servers throughout the network. You can buy or hire your own pipes, or even lease some bandwidth from an existing pipe, and carry your data on it. (I have read reports that google is doing just that with 'dark fibre'). If a megacorp wants to get better QOS for their customers, they can buy it, and the large telcos can sell it to them.

    Surely this obvious fact renders the arguments against NN null and void?

    Of course, most here believe, (and I among them) that this is about taking control of our internets, and preventing all the inovative things that are threatening the status quo that is making the existing systems rich.

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    1. Re:Surely, there is no need for it? by cowscows · · Score: 1

      It's not about protecting the status quo. The status quo is already a bunch of well entrenched monopolies running most of the networks. It's about the people running those monopolies still being greedy, and trying to squeeze even more money out of their privledged position.

      The fact that it will stomp on start up web companies and whatnot is incidental for the telcos. Collateral damage in a war for profit, unfortunate, but not worth stopping for.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    2. Re:Surely, there is no need for it? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      The worry is not about the server's end of the pipe, but the customer's end. An organization can buy plenty of equipment and wires to speed up their connection to the net, but it is unlikely they are going to buy all their customers the equipment and wires to speed up the customer's end.

  25. good thing, too by m874t232 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    It's a good thing that the Democrats are "loyal to the dollar" because they have delivered economic growth and budget surplusses over the last 100 years, while Republicans pretty consistently delivered huge budget deficits and economic decline.

    1. Re:good thing, too by budgenator · · Score: 1

      FDR was a democrat, he correctly applied Keynesian economics to the great depression. By having the government spending borrowed debt he cause budget surpluses which resulted in inflation and ended the deflationary depression. Jimmy Carter another democrat incorrectly applied Keynesian economics to fix a inflationary recession with disasterous results, double digit inflation.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    2. Re:good thing, too by Luscious868 · · Score: 1

      Your an idiot. If you were not an idiot you would know that Congress, not the President, controls the purse strings and that it was a Repubican controlled House that helped balance the budget during the Clinton presidency. Both parties deserve credit for the balanced budget in the 90's. You would also know that it was the Democrats who controlled Congress in the 80's during the Reagan era when we really ran up the national debit. Educate yourself before you open your mouth and stick your foot in it.

    3. Re:good thing, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So then, as you see it, Republicans get the credit for Clinton's balanced budget while Democrats get the blame for Reagan's huge deficits?

  26. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    Anonymous wrote

    I wish conservatives would stop attacking the messenger instead of the message. Look, are you for or against the message daily kos is saying? If the message is correct, it shouldn't matter who's saying it.

    The message is shock that a democrat would sell out the people and the country.
    This message is hillarious, its every bit as funny as mentioning that bush has accomplished quite alot as president and then seeing the democrats in the room have epileptic fits.
    Its every bit as funny as watching the noted lefty Kos be so concerned about who is paying a person, rather than what he has to say.
    And whats most funny is watching the left do everything the can only accuse the right of doing but not demonstrate.

  27. Past Hundred Years by Crashmarik · · Score: 3, Informative

    Past Hundred years ???

    Clintons surplus was non existent (see counting social security taxes as income and not counting the debt). The last real surplus was under Eisenhower and had a Republican congress.

    National unemployment rate at 4.7 percent or full employment, gotta enjoy that decline.

    Sir despite the above I will concede you the debate for I am crippled in that I argue from facts.

  28. The same history! by sperdich · · Score: 1

    Isn't this the same history ever? Why this appear to be news? http://perdichizzi.com.ar/

  29. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by MonkeyOfRage · · Score: 2, Informative
    Markos's reply was "f'em, let them hang"

    Actually, it was

    That said, I feel nothing over the death of mercenaries. They aren't in Iraq because of orders, or because they are there trying to help the people make Iraq a better place. They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them.
    Mercenaries. Must be nice to be able to redefine the language for one's convenience.
  30. Who's pathetic? by greenguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who the hell modded this insightful? Anyone who uses the phrase "liberal left," and then calls Slashdot a "party," is anything but insightful. This doesn't rise above an ideological thumbing of the nose, with all the insights that entails.

    --
    What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
    1. Re:Who's pathetic? by cowscows · · Score: 1

      It's a pretty common tactic. Ignore the actual content, and just attack the messenger. Kos proudly wears the label of liberal. And so he can't ever be correct, and anyone who listens to him is obviously a partisian liberal as well. No need to consider what he said. Don't think about it, just reflexively discount it. If he knew anything about anything, he would be a conservative.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    2. Re:Who's pathetic? by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's a pretty common tactic. Ignore the actual content, and just attack the messenger.
      Very common. In fact, I would wager you use it as well (as does almost every other human being). Allow me to demonstrate:
      s/Liberal/Nazi (I am in no way trying to equate the two; this is merely an academic exercise to indicate that if we change the source in question, you would react quite differently.):
      "Dietrich proudly wears the label of Nazi And so he can't ever be correct, and anyone who listens to him is obviously a partisian Nazi as well. No need to consider what he said. Don't think about it, just reflexively discount it. If he knew anything about anything, he would be a non-Nazi."
      So you see, dear reader, you are (probably) guilty of the very same thing.

      --
      Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
    3. Re:Who's pathetic? by cowscows · · Score: 1

      You're just making an assumption about me. I happen to be a mild WWII buff, and I'm very fascinated by the Nazi weaponry technology. Despite the fact that a lot of it was developed by Nazi's. And a lot of US scientists and engineers were impressed with it as well, as captured V2's formed the basis of America's space efforts.

      On a slightly more relevant note, one of my best friends is a pretty hardcore conservative, while my leanings are definately more liberal. Yet we still manage to have friendly discussions about politics, and even agree on a lot of things.

      The only type of person I would judge based on who they are, rather than the strength of their argument, would be clowns. I don't care what those freaky bastards say, they're all evil to the greatest degree imaginable.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    4. Re:Who's pathetic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being a Nazi has nothing to do with the validity of an argument. Is it your contention that Werner Heisenberg's ideas have been largely discounted on the basis of him being a Nazi?

      When people disregard the ideas of 'Nazis' out of hand it is most likely in the realms where their premises are considered morally repugnant or bordering on mysticism. It is the premise and not the affiliation that is the problem.

      But then I imagine your goal is simply to cheapen the level of discourse by suggesting that "everyone does it!"

    5. Re:Who's pathetic? by SlimFastForYou · · Score: 1

      Hitler and the Nazi party were strongly anti-tobacco.

      "Dietrich proudly wears the label of Nazi And so he can't ever be correct, and anyone who listens to him is obviously a partisian Nazi as well. No need to consider what he said. Don't think about it, just reflexively discount it. If he knew anything about anything, he would be a non-Nazi."

      So according to that logic, we should all start smoking.

  31. Net Neutrality by Callandor1589 · · Score: 1

    What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Women? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

    1. Re:Net Neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With M$ we know where they stand...but these neutrals...

  32. More proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More proof that all web sites that allow posting eventually degrade into stupid political party bickering forums.

  33. So you're not going to bother with refutation? by Maximilio · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The source of the comment is enough for your outright dismissal, I see. I can understand that: getting all sticky having an actual argument is so gauche.

  34. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Otter · · Score: 1

    More to the point, shouldn't "BBCWatcher" be quoting ... I dunno ... the BBC and not some mouth-frothing from a blogoloony bin? I demand that he be re-nicked.

  35. Re:keep your laws off my network. by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Does anyone really think regulation by the clueless is going to improve things?

    Exactly! AT&T and Verizon only have YOUR best interests at heart in opposing network neutrality.

  36. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

    > bush has accomplished quite alot as president and then seeing the democrats in the room have epileptic fits.

    The medical term is "gelastic seizure", more commonly known as laughter epilepsy.

  37. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Maximilio · · Score: 1
    I don't think you're following very closely. One of the main things going on at DailyKos is not so much routine criticism of the right and its very clearly failed policies -- although that does happen. It's also a self-examination of the Democratic party -- ostensibly the party representing the needs of the left and the whole spectrum of greater (public) interest vs. concentrated (corporate) interests -- and why it has routinely failed to deliver any credible alternative. Very broadly, the people who assemble on DailyKos are of the opinion that the inside-the-beltway mentality of the DLC has given us a Democratic party with no cojones to stand up and oppose things that their base opposes. They have a strategy of backing down because they're more afraid of offending people than losing elections because they held to a principle. It's why one of the most important Kos discussions is not whether or not we can put a Democrat in the Oval Office -- it's whether or not we can remove people like Joe Lieberman, who registers Democrat but votes Republican, and replace them with actual Democrats. So in that context you completely miss what is going on with Mr. McCurry, who is in the opinion of the KosOSphere either a shill or a sellout.

    But the discussion of what is going on in this nation has become so distorted that I suppose people on the right can't even figure out what people on the left are talking about anymore, and it may be mostly because you're letting Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly tell you what we think.

  38. Comrade by Crashmarik · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It is obvious that the education system of the Imperialistic Americans has failed you. You are seeing things that are obviously not there, if not checked soon you will be speaking of leftist bias in the press and wondering how when one president kills thousands by sanctions and missile attacks but accomplishes nothing he is a hero but when another actually liberates people he is a murderer. We Must get you to the re-education program immediately.

    On a serious note you must be new here, Slashdot is much like an echo chamber. If the facts of your comment aren't liked its obvious that you are provoking an argument. Have links that show global warming isn't the fault of fat rich people driving SUV's just so they can make poor people feel bad you must be a troll.

    If youre centrist, libertarian or just non Ideological I would suggest growing a thick skin and understanding that the more you demonstrate that there is more to the world than the slashbots comprehend the more they will hate you for it.

  39. Heh, there is a lot of dishonesty to go around by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot of the network neutrality supporters don't even understand the issue at all. Take this for example, where the NYT and a lot of bloggers think of this as an attack on the web, as though telecoms really want to block off websites instead of regulate bandwidth to things that are going to consume terabytes or more of bandwidth like hi-def video services.

    The approach that would work best for assuaging free speech concerns is to beef up common carrier laws. Extend common carrier status laws to the point that any ISP or telecom that blocks legal speech in the United States loses all common carrier protection through every service it provides. Yes, make it a legal corporate death penalty statute so that the MPAA and RIAA can literally sue Verizon into irrecoverable bankrupcy through the DMCA if they start playing speech king-maker.

    And here's the funny thing about the "democracy" angle. When domain names were "democratically" controlled, they were much more expensive than they are today. Democracy sucks ass at allocating resources compared to a competitive free market. I'll take my chances with the market over protections for either side, thank you.

    1. Re:Heh, there is a lot of dishonesty to go around by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      the NYT and a lot of bloggers think of this as an attack on the web, as though telecoms really want to block off websites instead of regulate bandwidth to things that are going to consume terabytes or more of bandwidth like hi-def video services.

      I don't know why you'd assume that's NOT what the telecoms really want to do.

      It's not like the future of online hi-def video services is going to be Anonymous FTP sites. That content is going to be distributed via the Web, and more specifically via video-centric websites like Google Video et al.

      The FIRST thing a profit-conscious, discrimination-enabled telecom company would do after looking at how much of their pipe is taken up by traffic originating at YouTube is to approach YouTube's operators and threaten that unless the standard protection fee is paid, packets being sent to their users might start mysteriously disappearing along the way.

    2. Re:Heh, there is a lot of dishonesty to go around by n8_f · · Score: 1
      As though telecoms really want to block off websites instead of regulate bandwidth to things that are going to consume terabytes or more of bandwidth like hi-def video services.

      Yes, they do. The telcos can see the writing on the wall. The phone companies are just starting to hemorrhage customers to VOIP, but they know it's going to change from a trickle to a torrent. They're already hurting because of cell networks (which is why they own big chunks of them) and VOIP is going to make it worse. And it is a bit further off, but cable companies know that an on-demand world is coming. ITunes is already there, TiVo has been there, and people love it. In the next few years, both industries are going see a significant decline in revenues. They see Internet regulation as their solution. They can degrade the service of competitors, driving customers towards their own services, or they can charge companies who provide those services, making up for their lost profits. Either way, they won't have to worry about competition, which is exactly what they've become accustomed to.

      Democracy sucks ass at allocating resources compared to a competitive free market. I'll take my chances with the market over protections for either side, thank you.

      Except this isn't a free market and never will be. The huge capital costs represent a massive barrier to entry and subsequent competitors have substantially increased costs. It is a natural monopoly - or duopoly, in this case. Think about a company trying to provide an alternative to our road system. And consumers quite simply aren't equipped to make intelligent decisions that take into consideration any factors other than cost and perhaps support (although that is often entirely anecdotal), which is something that is a requirement for a free market to function. The infrastructure should be publicly owned with private service providers operating on top of the infrastructure on a RAND basis. That is as close to a free market and ideal situation as we can get.

    3. Re:Heh, there is a lot of dishonesty to go around by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 1

      Water companies used to be competitive. Problem was that it cost a lot in duplicated efforts to compete, so some people would be unable to obtain running water as the companies did not want to compete. That's when we created the utility model. Companies bid on running a utility, which is publically funded and owned and are forced to treat everyone equally. That was how the internet used to be, and how it should be.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
  40. Need help with "Neutrality" definition by in.johnnyd · · Score: 1

    I read the wikipedia write-up on Net Neutrality but it looks to me like it means whatever you want it to mean. So if someone says "I support Network Neutrality" here on slashdot, what does that mean to us?

    Personally, I oppose legislation governing traffic and I want ISPs to give equal priority to each packet/frame/whatever that they handle -- so do I support "Net Neutrality"?

    All comments welcome -- flames too -- I'm lost.

    TIA

    1. Re:Need help with "Neutrality" definition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Personally, I oppose legislation governing traffic and I want ISPs to give equal priority to each packet/frame/whatever that they handle"

      So do I, but it's not going to happen. ISPs are NOT going to give the packets equal priority, they've already said as much. So you're going to have to choose between legislation or letting AT&T/Comcast/etc. set up their own mafia-like protection rackets for your data.

    2. Re:Need help with "Neutrality" definition by tlabetti · · Score: 1
      I too am not sure we need additoinal legislation but I want to make sure that ISP's don't change the way the "last mile" works.

      There are a couple of ways to protect Net Neutrality without passing legislation.

      1. Play a game of chicken with the telcos. Keep moving legislation through Congress and scare the telcos into a choice of self-regulation or government intervention.
      2. Tie Net Neutrality provisions into the new local, state and national IPTV cable franchise agreements. (which I am pushing for in my town: http://www.redbanktv.org/ )
      3. Large investors and fund managers need to see that Access Tiering could be good in the short run for their telco investments but potentially hurtful to their other investments. Then they need to press the telcos at investor meetings and dog and pony shows.


    3. Re:Need help with "Neutrality" definition by TrueXtremeIcon · · Score: 1

      I would say that you are indeed in support of "Net Neutrality." There is nothing in the overall general scheme of the idea that says legislation is necessary or the ideal form of enforcing net neutrality. If there was some simpler way of guaranteeing equality on the net without having to get Congress involved, I think we would much rather go down that road.

      But alas, it appears that at the moment there is very little in the way of other options when it comes to preventing telephone and cable companies from charging extra to companies to be able to deliver their content to end-users without being throttled. The only other possible solution right now that I can think of is some sort of idealistic "pipe dream" where companies like Google and Microsoft and Ebay and every other big internet company suddenly joins forces to establish a new system which would completely bypass the current method of delivery through a person's current internet connection, something like the previously discussed nationwide wireless network and such.

      I don't think it is hard at all to be a supporter of Net Neutrality while still remaining apprehensive about government intervention. I mean, for more than 6 years now most of us on the "Left" of the political spectrum have cringed at the very thought of taking something to congress, but at the moment it seems that Congress is the closest thing we have to a shot right now at keeping Telcos from holding the Web hostage.

      --
      T-X-I
  41. Wow by segedunum · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What a dishonest piece of shit McCurry has become....McCurry is now a sad, sad, pathetic man. Completely stripped of all goodwill he had built over the years....McCurry, lying sack of shit that he has become....

    Don't hold back on the character assassination there Markos. However, if you read through his blog post it seems to be pretty well deserved. McCurry does seem to have run out of arguments on the issue in question and is now resorting to "Well, these people must just be anti-corporation lefties", somewhat ignorant of the fact that many corporations are seriously against all this. It would be hugely detrimental to Google

    "The internet has always had rules. One of those rules is that even if you own a pipe, you're not allowed to tell people what they can put through that pipe. You can't block web sites, you can't say 'don't stream video', and you can't dictate what people and can't say. You do have to pay for the pipe you use; Google pays millions a month on one end, and millions of consumers pay smaller amounts ($20-$60) a month on the other. But no one can tell you what you can do with those pipes. It's very much the opposite of cable TV. There are no gatekeepers, and that's by design. This has created a highly competitive marketplace."

    This is the way the internet works, and even if the Telcos get what they want the internet will definitely not work like this. There is simply no other way. It will simply collapse and people will bypass the telcos and go their own way, or the internet in the US certainly would be non-existant for most ordinary citizens while other countries surge ahead. Anyway, one can see why the telcos are reacting badly because in the long-run they are simply on a hiding to nothing, but it really doesn't matter one bit how much they spend. The only certainty in life and in business is change.

    1. Re:Wow by BillEGoat · · Score: 1

      "The internet has always had rules. One of those rules is that even if you own a pipe, you're not allowed to tell people what they can put through that pipe."

      I call BS. Years ago ISPs started blocking SMTP traffic to combat spam originating from their broadband lines. TACOS often include terms that prohibit certain types of activities, specifically criminal activities. Many broadband offerings don't allow for routing of UDP packets to the subscriber (limiting VoIP as a byproduct). Broadband carriers have long been telling people what they can do with their pipes. Subscribers have long been OK with these limitations.

      I'm all in favor of the effects that the Net Neutrality folks are seeking, but I'm unconvinced that we want to invite government regulation to the party. Decent consumer education is probably more effective - teach people to shop for "neutral broadband" service and you'll achieve the same goal without inviting bureaucrats to architect the evolution of the internet. And remember, Neutrality is not the goal, but rather the strategy. The goal is to perpetuate the current market which has the property of allowing the little guy and the big guy to appear the same. If that goal can be obtained without the current view of Neutrality, then why not?

      On the flip side, if my telco wants to sell me a 100Mbps connection, with 10Mbps for general internet and 90Mbps for their VoIP and their TV, I may be inclined to subscribe. That sounds like a nice product offering. The fact that Vonage has to play on the 10Mbps portion of the pipe does not concern me, and I view this as a much lesser evil than government lawyers getting into the ISP business.

  42. two ends of the pipe by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Informative

    What youre saying is correct but wrong. Youre proposals would increase a sites availibility on the network in general but it does nothing if the end of the pipe decides to shake you down for your lunch money.

    1. Re:two ends of the pipe by robbak · · Score: 1
      Oh, I agree that under a Net Partiality scheme, you would have to pay up or get snailed, no matter what you did.

      At the moment, however, you can, without endangering NN, buy yourself better QOS. And the companies can sell it to you.

      To overgeneralise, they can already sell you an insurance policy. They want to get into the extortion game.

      --
      Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
  43. Re:keep your laws off my network. by LukeCrawford · · Score: 1

    And the government does? come now. Remember who owns the government. When it is private corporations, I can at least run my own T3s and route around the problem.

  44. Two sides of the same filthy coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Democrat, Republican I don't see any difference. Hillary will be back in power in '08 and nothing will change. Liberties will be taken, taxes will continue to go up, the border won't be secured, troops will still be overseas, the deficit will climb and the debt won't be paid off. Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton! Remember everyone to vote straight ticket everytime and never, ever vote third party! The "other" party is nothing but pure evil incarnate! STRAIGHT TICKET ONLY! THIS TIME IT WILL WORK, WE PROMISE!

  45. The GOP stand for sex for virgins ?? by Crashmarik · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well that was news

  46. bullshit by m874t232 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    According to Congressional Budget Office (reported by Reuters in 2004, you can probably find the graph if you search for it), the only president that has had any significant budget surplus since 1963 was Bill Clinton. And if you want to argue that Clinton's budget surplus wasn't real, then the figures for the Republican presidents are even more disastrous than they were reported to be.

    The Republican pattern of fiscal irresponsibility and anti-growth policies is also illustrated at the state level: there is a huge net flow of funds from Democratic states to Republican states.

    Republicans like to talk a lot about growth and fiscal responsibility, but in reality, what Republicans primarily deliver is handouts to the rich, bloated government, and restrictions on personal freedoms.

    It would be nice to have true conservative government: government that is frugal, government that respects traditional liberties, and government that limits its own size and scope; unfortunately, Republicans are the antithesis of that. The problem with Republican rhetoric isn't even that their criticism of Democrats is wrong, it's that they themselves are even worse.

    1. Re:bullshit by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      You respond to the assault on your sacred writ but no to the actual message.

      Clinton did not have a surplus if you removed the false social security surplus the social security funds are there to be paid back later.

      You also assume I am pro the current republican spending patterns I am not. But you raise a good point even if you cant understand it. The budget and spending are controlled by the congress not the president. So if you want to claim that there was a balanced budget during the clinton years the accolades go to the Newt Gingrich congress. The approbation for the budget problems currently go to the hastert congress.

    2. Re:bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clinton did not have a surplus if you removed the false social security surplus the social security funds are there to be paid back later.

      No matter what kind of Voodoo accounting you want to use, the fact remains that the nation has been doing much better financially under Democratic presidents than under Republican ones.

      The budget and spending are controlled by the congress not the president.

      When Bush starts expensive wars, Congress has no choice but to allocate funding for them. And when Bush hurts the economy, security, and foreign trade through his mismanagement, that reduces the income side of the equation. Face it: Republicans run good campaigns, they just don't know how to govern.

      I'm sure Republicans will come up with yet another lame excuse how the ruined economy, ruined foreign relations, and brewing wars are still all the fault of the Democrats.

    3. Re:bullshit by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Lets see Carter, Johnson, Kenedy, truman and clinton. I suppose one good result in the past 60 years can be considered a win. Especially if you don't look too closely.

    4. Re:bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lets see Carter, Johnson, Kenedy, truman and clinton. I suppose one good result in the past 60 years can be considered a win. Especially if you don't look too closely.

      Well, given that the Republicans have been delivering no good results at all, I think that's a good record. In fact, since the Republican rise in the 1980's, the US has been steadily going downhill.

    5. Re:bullshit by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Truman world War II, Kenedy/johnson Viet Nam, Clinton Balkins and Sudan, can't remember a war for Carter but there must of been one and the Iranian Hostage crisis must count for something.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    6. Re:bullshit by Luscious868 · · Score: 1

      Since it's Congress, not the President, that controls the purse strings and Republicans controlled in the House after 1994 both parties deserve credit. Read up before you comment on issues you clearly know nothing about.

    7. Re:bullshit by m874t232 · · Score: 1

      No, the problem is simply that you have a simplistic model of how budget deficits come about. In the end, it's immaterial who "controls the purse strings"; when expenditures are necessary, Congress needs to approve them, no matter how much they may detest it.

      The most important factors affecting deficits are economic performance, foreign trade, monetary policy, and military expenditures. Those factors are largely determined by the administration; Congress has just been reacting to them, at least over the last several decades.

      There was a budget surplus during the Clinton years because Clinton got those things right, and there have been budget deficits during the Bush years because Bush got those things completely wrong.

    8. Re:bullshit by Penguinshit · · Score: 1

      Since it's the President, not the Congress, that provides the budget and since Clinton repeatedly had to water down Republican tax "cuts" to ensure the projected surplus, Clinton deserves the credit.

      Read up before you comment on issues you clearly know nothing about.

    9. Re:bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Presidents can PROPOSE a budget BILL (meaning law) for congress to act on. They do NOT simply have them take effect.

      The President has control over certain discretionary spending (part of the budget(s) that have been passed over the years). But they don't control the US's money.

      I weep for the state of public education... this is basic stuff...

    10. Re:bullshit by Penguinshit · · Score: 1

      No shit. But the President ultimately signs or vetoes the Bill prior to it becoming law. That puts a lot of pressure on Congress to negotiate the outcome into something the President will sign.

      Weep for your own lack of education... This is basic reality...

  47. Re:Markos Moulitsas Zúniga by SenorPez · · Score: 0

    At least have the stones to attach your name to your racist, ignorant comment. Or did you not cut the holes in your white hood large enough, causing them to obscure the "Login" box?

  48. Did we need more proof? by Liam+Slider · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Really? Did we need more proof of how corrupt our government is, do our politicians actually have to stand up and flat out say they are corrupt now and act proud of the fact that they are all in the pay of various corporate interests and not doing squat in the interests of the People?

    1. Re:Did we need more proof? by rjung2k · · Score: 1

      "Did we need more proof of how corrupt our government is"

      To be fair, I don't think Mr. McCurry is currently serving as a direct member of "our government" any more.

      He may be a slimeball, but he's no longer a government slimeball -- that job's currently fulfilled by Messrs. DeLay, Santorum, Frist...

  49. Its Getting Worse...What to Do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I know its not just me. The "Hollywood Greed Problem" is getting worse. Just from today and yesterday.
    This is a problem.

    I dont remember the fight going on so many fronts at once a few years ago. It didnt seem like they were pressing in some new avenue every month. These _are_ serious issues, too. Losing one of these does restrict my freedoms and dramaticall impact the way I live my life.

    What is the right response to this? I contribute to the EFF. I call my representatives, as if that mattered. What more can be done to make my position not only heard, but considered, and ultimately put other persons in agreement with it. What are other slashdotters doing to accomplish this?

  50. Re:Best of luck on that base thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. This is the base that wants amnesty for all illegal immigrants and their families brought over as well ?


    This is a falsehood. Whoever told you this was either lying to you or is also misinformed.


    2. This is the base that wants immedi


    Well, I want immedi too, whatever that is. Any right-thinking person wants them some immedi.


    3. This is the base that wants abortion on demand for underage girls without parental or legal notification


    It's not quite that stark, although a small subsection are like that. Most of the base want want the majority of Americans want: Legal abortion as a choice. Only a minority of Americans want something else.


    4. This is the base that wants to raise taxes to promote economic growth


    Curious how lowering taxes since 2001 has lowered economic growth, with the amount of tax money taken in by the government being lower today than it was back in 2001, despite all these years of "economic recovery." Funny how that always works this way.


    5. This is the base that applauds when dick durbin and jack murtha compare american troops to nazis


    This is a falsehood. Whoever told you this was either lying to you or is also misinformed.

  51. Considering all sides of the issue... by Attis_The_Bunneh · · Score: 1

    I think Net Neutrality is a 'trap' of some sorts. Whether it's trying to peg market prices for bandwidth at a certain level, to which both content consumers and content producers 'equally share' the cost, or whether it's some FCC thug sharpening his claws to dig into the carcass of the most contriversal websites online today, it does not bode well to take this issue lightly.

    My take is this, Net Neutrality sounds great on the surface, but here's why I don't like it; if you are a content producer you should pay for the bandwidth that is allocated for your content, period and end of story. All the analogies of the Internet being like a superhighway is flawed since most highways, even in Hong Kong and Japan [Tokyo] are still publically owned and developed. The Internet by comparison has been essentially private for almost a decade with MCI, Sprintlink, and etc laying down the vast bulk of the bandwidth carrying lines. Thus, it is not the obligation of the owners of these 'highways' to let anyone use it or let anyone use it for a lower market value. All this may sound like evil evil 'neo-con/neo-lib' propaganda, but look at the folks taking the affirming side of Net Neutrality; Google, Microsoft, and etc. These are CONTENT PRODUCERS, and as such stand to gain everything if they don't have to carry the bulk of the cost of using their share of the bandwidth accolated. [WARNING: ANALOGY AHEAD] It's sorta like saying because Bill Gates eats at McD's once in a while, that I ought to foot twenty five cents on my bill for my meal just so he get 'equal access' to his Big Mac. And that may also be not entirely accurate either, but this issue sure smacks of it. I, for one, don't feel like paying for the content of others that I don't use such as Microsoft [MSN Spaces, MSN messenger, etc...] or the other content providers to which I do not visit nor link to. I'll sure pay for Google, but then again I thought those stupid text ads, which once in a while were useful [oddly] in my online shopping took care of the cost of the bandwidth, and provided a decent profit for Google's shareholders. If these content producers can't accept they are going to pay for their operating costs, then I might be the first to turn off my PC and kill my ISP account just on principle... Then again, who is John Galt? :)

    -- Bridget

    1. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by deanc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My take is this, Net Neutrality sounds great on the surface, but here's why I don't like it; if you are a content producer you should pay for the bandwidth that is allocated for your content

      Excuse me, but as a content producer myself, I ALREADY pay for the bandwidth of my content. At the moment, it costs about $10/month, but in the event that my weblog becomes much more popular than it is now, I'm going to have to start shelling out much more money.

      Google already pays millions of dollars a month for its bandwidth. Kos himself pays thousands a month to maintain dailkos.com. The bandwidth is already paid for. The telcos shouldn't be charging "protection money" from web site producers who are already paying big money for their bandwidth.

    2. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Pizaz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Good lord, can you imagine if highways and roads WERE owned by corporations? Everyone would wind up with the equivalent of bus passes just to drive their own cars. Then when switching to the roads owned by another company you'd start paying roaming charges... LITTERALLY.

      And then some roads... would be just impossible to get on. What's that? You say you want to drive to Disneyland? Congratulations because now the roads to access the Disneyland parking lots all charge a sur-charge of 20.00.

      What's this? You want to drive to the beach? Well because its the weekend and the first hot sunny day in 3 weeks, you're going to be charged an extra 10.00 "good weather weekend" surcharge if you want to drive closer than a 10 block walk to the beach. But surely this is fair? I mean these are private roads, don't they have the right to restrict access to the better roads or the roads that get you closer to where you actually want to go?

      Blind capitalism is not the American way.

      As far as Bridget's arguments however... its totally rediculous. Content providers and content users all PAY for their bandwidth. If i want more bandwidth i have to pay for it. If my website goes over so much traffic, I pay for it. If I want a T1 installed to my house, I have to pay ALOT for it. Do you think E-Bay is paying the same amount in bandwidth cost that Craigslist is paying? No freaking way.

      This isnt about paying for bandwidth, this is about fragmenting the internet, blocking competition, blocking voices, blocking access. For the home user, they want to charge you extra for being able to access Ebay just as if it were a premium channel on HBO. For companies like Ebay and Google, they understand that they'll be extorted to pay a premium to not have their service to certain areas degraded! It's the flipside of the cable analogy whereby instead of hte customers paying for access to some services on the web somewhere, now services on the web also have to pay a "fee" to be carried on these networks!

    3. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Steve+B · · Score: 1
      if you are a content producer you should pay for the bandwidth that is allocated for your content, period and end of story

      You're only missing one word:

      if you are a content producer you should pay ONCE for the bandwidth that is allocated for your content, period and end of story

      The anti-neutrality side wants to get double-dip second, third, etc payments for that which has already been purchased.

      --
      /. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
    4. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you mean the phone companies own the internet, right?

    5. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thus, it is not the obligation of the owners of these 'highways' to let anyone use it or let anyone use it for a lower market value.

      So, then ICANN should jsut revoke the IP addresses of any fucking companies that try this shit. Or maybe ICANN should charge rich people and corporations based on their market value more money for their IP addresses. After all IP addresses are not the property of the telcos. Hey its a free market, let the bulls run through the china shop and it will just provide more opportunities for bull catchers. Oh and maybe I should just charge the telcos for the privilege of stringing wire in front of my house without cutting them down every month.

      Free markets and societies need rules, simple rules are what keep it free.

    6. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      My take is this, Net Neutrality sounds great on the surface, but here's why I don't like it; if you are a content producer you should pay for the bandwidth that is allocated for your content, period and end of story.

      They already do. The issue now is that the telcos want to charge a 3rd time. One charge for the customers bandwidth, one for the bandwidth of the content provider, and then a new 3rd latency surcharge which the telcos want to be able to apply arbitrarily to content providers they think can bear the burden. Oh and by the way, they want to be able to waive this surcharge for their friends and whomever they please. Oh and they also want to provide their own content if they think they can make a buck or two.

      Then again, who is John Galt?

      Please don't invoke the ideals of libertarianism or objectivism to provide cover for this so called business practice. Libertarianism understands the need for societal rules enforced by the threat and use of force. Murder, stealing, fraud (theft through deception) are all things that are rightly in the power of government to regulate. A free market will no longer exist if corporations, which have been given power and life by the government, are allowed to corrupt the Internet.

      I know who John Galt is. And if you want to deregulate the Internet on objectivist grounds, then lets go ahead and deregulate corporations out of existance first. After all, without the government creation of the limited liability for shareholders which goes along with the corporation, individuals would not be able to own and control nearly as much capital as they can now. And they wouldn't be able to manipulate the free market nearly as much without incurring large amounts of personal liability. So, in a true free market you would not see the accumulation of capital into such large corporations as you see now. Simply because no one would want to share so much risk with so many unknown people and without knowing what people were doing with your capital in your name.

      You either regulate corporate business practices or you eliminate the corporation. You cannot pretend to deregulate something created by regulation without even more seriously distorting the free market.

    7. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by popsicle67 · · Score: 1

      The only problem with your argument is that we already paid for these telco's to carry more bandwidth than what they are giving us. content providers are what induce us to buy access(read bandwidth). Why should we pay to access content and then let the telco's make google pay to provide it? that's double dipping. To provide a more accurate analogy you might say that the situation is comparable to ordering a pizza by phone.You and the pizza place both pay for the telephone equipment that connects you.ISP's and everybody with a website have to pay some kind of fees for the physical connections that allow the internet to be, just like you pay the fee for your physical access be it phone line or cable.Now how would you feel if instead of just ordering that pizza you had choose which level information you were allowed to transmit about what you wanted to order, then the pizza place would have to choose which level of service it wanted to be able to tell you about it's products or when your order would come keeping in mind that there is a middle man who would cut the call if the amount of information exceeded the limit on either side. That is what the telco's want, that is what the lying,thieving,maladroit bastards think is fair. They make you pay for every last goddamned inch of line and every pound of equipment they use either through your phone bill or by getting congress to grant money or tax breaks(which adds up to costing us either way),then they want to charge you for every scrap of information that you transmit over those lines. I would love to see everybody canceling their telco offered internet access and landline phone service just to see how sorry we can make the little bastards,they're days of being the only game in town are long over

    8. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Attis_The_Bunneh · · Score: 1

      I agree that if you contracted for bandwidth as a fixed price then you should get it at that price, but adding further legal infrastructure to an already easily handled issue will not fix it. If you want true net neutrality, then you will have to consider a FreeNet solution to the problem, but I don't see that as a solution either. I think the market will increase bandwidth prices [as they are already doing since I've been checking prices on bandwidth for podcasting...], so to claim that any legal price cap is going to keep things chugging along all rosy is a bit overly simplistic.

      -- Bridget

    9. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Attis_The_Bunneh · · Score: 1

      ----
      Blind capitalism is not the American way.
      ----

      There is no such thing as blind capitalism, just as there is no such thing as blind communism. There are more false equivocations in this quotation than I can shake a stick at. So, I'll just leave it at that.

      -- Bridget

    10. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Attis_The_Bunneh · · Score: 1

      I agree, but you cannot enforce that moral platitude by means of legal thuggery. If it follows that payment double-dipping is bad and then it is illegal , then it follows that anything one finds bad is illegal no matter the rhyme or reason. I don't support mixed market economics. Keep your FCC off my ISP, thank you.

      -- Bridget

    11. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by scourtney2000 · · Score: 1

      The telcos are given a huge advantage everyday. They are given the right of ways to our city streets, conduit systems, building, neighborhoods, etc. They make money in every direction. From the content providers and from the citizens of this coutnry. They provide access to a 'public service.' Yes, it is a public service. Let's not forget where most of this technology comes from. OUR TAX DOLLARS. MCI, Sprint, and the gang may of made some contributions to the Internet, but the foundations of the technologies that power the Internet were born out of many years of research done on the tax payers dimes. The origins of the Internet as we know began in the early 70's. I don't sympathize for MCI or Sprint or Verizon. Please. It is rediculous to agrue like this. I don't own them anything. These companies are the stewards of technology they can not take complete credit for. Do you think any of these corporations need any one of us to come to their rescue? Are you kidding?! People need protection from corporations! The government will always be their to bail out the MCI's of the world. Will the goverment be there to bail you out? Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what will this country take from you next? Love, W

    12. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by chawly · · Score: 1

      I should if I were you.

      --
      How many beans make five, anyhow ? ... Charles Walmsley
    13. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by chawly · · Score: 1

      Stick-waving is the only solution.

      --
      How many beans make five, anyhow ? ... Charles Walmsley
    14. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by deanc · · Score: 1

      At no point in my post did I mention anything about price caps. In fact, I pointed out that under the current regime, I will have to pay more money if I use more bandwidth. I don't know where you're getting the pricecap thing from.

    15. Re:Considering all sides of the issue... by Attis_The_Bunneh · · Score: 1

      You get it from the fact that if you're demanding all parts of the network to treat your data as if it were from the same originating source with the same priority as all data traffic without paying for that given bandwidth versus its market value, then you are price capping. Personally, I think Net Neutrality will be the end of the Internet as we know it with solid package deals on bandwidth since it will not pay to do as such anymore, it'll probably be the inverse, where then the personal ISP account holder will be paying for bandwidth instead just to see a given piece of content. In either case, the money needed to expand the networks will either come out of the pocket of a private person who is willing to pay or from the unwilling tax payer. I prefer the former for obvious reasons, and dislike the latter for the same.

      -- Bridget

  52. "Personally inconvenient"?! by slyborg · · Score: 1


    Man, I'd love to see you experience the "personal inconvenience" of being shot in the head.

    1. Re:"Personally inconvenient"?! by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      Man, I'd love to see you experience the "personal inconvenience" of being shot in the head.

      He's got a point, though. That was an awful thing to have to endure, but that doesn't give Brady the right to lobby against my and your constitutional protections.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:"Personally inconvenient"?! by psmears · · Score: 1
      that doesn't give Brady the right to lobby against my and your constitutional protections.

      Correct. It's the First Amendment that gives him *that* right ;-)

  53. And Howard Dean is executing a 50 state strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only thing Dean is executing is the Democratic Party and it's voting base.

    Remember, this is the guy who raised $60 million in 2000 and had only a handful of convention votes to show for it. He kept no books, so no one knows on what or where the money was spent. Deans spends money like a drunken social worker.

    The Dems are in bad financial shape right now, they're raising funds OK. It's just that the money disappears as soon as it arrives, with no explanation.

    If the Dems had a lick of sense - and they don't -, they'd get rid of Dean. Dean is Rove's best friends.

  54. Re:Best of luck on that base thing by Maximilio · · Score: 2, Insightful
    1. This is the base that wants amnesty for all illegal immigrants and their families brought over as well ?

    This is the base who's wondering why Bush slept at the switch for six years and then suddenly discovered this highly-divisive issue when his poll numbers were tanking. They're here. They are part of the economy. They are here SOLELY because they have discovered that employers will hire them -- and it is to the exploitative employers that the "base" directs our ire. These employers have lived in an atmosphere of wink-and-nod enforcement of immigration. We've had a global amnesty before -- it's a way to reset the system and make it honest. If you think you can jerk 11 or 12 million people out of our country without a noticable economic impact and also without initiating a concentration-camp style deathmarch you're dreaming. But what's going on has nothing to do with any kind of "gathering threat" and everything to do with pushing people's panic buttons to get them to the polls. See last year's gay marriage threat.

    2. This is the base that wants immedi

    This is the base that wants their public leaders to speak in complete, intelligible sentences.

    3. This is the base that wants abortion on demand for underage girls without parental or legal notification

    This is the base that wonders why the same people who insist we ban abortion won't stand up for readily-available birth control. This is the same base that views with something approaching complete revulsion the recent statements by scions of the religious community that vaccines for STD's are tantamount to a greenlight for sex. This is the base that can pretty easily see that the issue has nothing to do with "pro-life" and everything to do with people of one religion inserting their moral views into the legal code in violation of just about everything this country stands for.

    This is the base that deplores legalized abortion but despises even more the inevitibility of illegal abortion that a full ban would bring, and would like to see some evidence-based strategy to reduce unwanted pregancy, rather than "abstience-only" programs based on religious flummery and wishful thinking.

    4. This is the base that wants to raise taxes to promote economic growth

    Clinton raised taxes. It certainly didn't kill economic growth. Don't tell me the 90's boom had anything to do with Reagan because that's been repeatedly debunked.

    Bush cut taxes. We're stuck in stagflation now, and the dollar is crashing, and the national debt will be paid off by my children and their children. And in real terms, wages have been dropping. Don't tell me what a great economy this is. Go out into your community and ask your neighbors if they're better off now than they were six years ago. A clear majority of them will not agree.

    5. This is the base that applauds when dick durbin and jack murtha compare american troops to nazis

    Give me a source of both the quotes you imply and an opinion poll of the "base" agreeing with said quotes. Then we can talk about that statement.

    You should be thankfull you have the DLC to mask your base from the rest of the country.

    Currently the opinions of "my" base are in tune with the opinions of 71% of the rest of the country. The DLC is out of touch, and so are you.

  55. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blackwell's employees are mercenaries. They're ex-military contracted to peform soldiering in Iraq.

  56. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    He wasn't redefining anything. He wasn't talking about soldiers, but about people over there doing soldier's work for money. The very definition of a mercenary.

  57. If youre centrist, libertarian or just non Ideological I would suggest growing a thick skin and understanding that the more you demonstrate that there is more to the world than the slashbots comprehend the more they will hate you for it.

    I seldom see a well-argued, politely-stated point modded as a troll, or not taken seriously. Don't be surprised when people are less-than-polite about points which you've gotten wrong or misrepresented though. /. is pretty rare in that people's opinions actually can be swayed and there's room for actual discourse - not just flaming. Pay no attention to the trolls - there are real people here who don't mind opening themselves up to other points of view.

    1. Re:Wrong by Crashmarik · · Score: 1
      LOL

      You people slay me

      Well argued = making points and using facts that people here are willing to acknolege.

      Less than polite = Something anyone beloved here has done thats not quite kosher

      Gotten Wrong or Misrepresented = Things which are not to be spoken of

      Don't mind opening themselves up = To points of view which are more extreme forms of the ones they allready hold
      If you want to have some fun you can try any of these topics

      The bush administration invasion of Iraq has resulted in a net savings of life

      Any clinton administration scandal or misdeed no matter how minor

      Discuss the possiblility that global warming might not have a human cause

      Point out that the U.S. and north america in general are net absorbers of greenhouse gasses

      Ask what the real cost of converting to alternate fuels will be when we have to scrap our existing infrastucture to do it

      hop in on the evolution debate pick out flaws in both sides arguments

      Slashdot is living proof that if you make people think they are thinking they will love you but if you make them think they will hate you.

  58. Re:My eyes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is so bad I may have to give up my Slashdot addiction just to save my eyes for real work.

    I notice that today's stories have less than half as many comments as usual. Is this Taco's way of reducing server and bandwidth costs?

  59. Mod parent up informative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interesting read

  60. Ah yes, the binary view of political life by Infonaut · · Score: 1

    Anyone who thinks otherwie -- and mind you, this is totally regardless of party affiliation -- is being silly.

    Anyone? Really? Anyone who disagrees with your binary interpretation of all the people who have ever held the office of White House Press Secretary is being silly? I guess I'm silly, then.

    All other press secreteries are simply PR figureheads, who never -- not ever -- present their own views, if, indeed, they even have any.

    Wow. Not ever. Not once. I'm sure most of them have no party affiliation, no convictions about any issues. Probably most of them just got picked up on the street corner, and would work for either a Democrat or a Republican, given enough money. I'm sure Pierre Salinger, who moved to France after George W. Bush was elected President, or Bill Moyers would have worked for anyone who bounced into office.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
    1. Re:Ah yes, the binary view of political life by Slartibartfast · · Score: 1

      You're cute. And, yes, warm, fuzzy, and silly. While you make some valid points, the point *I* was making was one you failed to address: the simple fact that, by accepting the job of press secretary, one essentially disowns any views that one might have. IT IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE JOB. After one leaves the post -- or, say, in the case of Tony Snow, before one takes the post -- one is clearly free to state one's views, so long as said person hasn't taken yet *another* PR flak job. In which case, rewind/play. Most large companies have PR folks; it's their JOB -- their whole reason for being -- to tell the the party line in as upbeat a manner as possible, and to put good spin on bad things.

      And, while I generally do try to stay away from polarized/binary points-of-view, I think that any press secretary who stated his own personal views while in the employ of an entity with whom (s)he might differ, would very quickly find themselves looking for other employ.

    2. Re:Ah yes, the binary view of political life by Infonaut · · Score: 1

      the point *I* was making was one you failed to address: the simple fact that, by accepting the job of press secretary, one essentially disowns any views that one might have. IT IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE JOB.

      I concur wholeheartedly. I just thought the ancillary commentary in your original post were a bit out in left field. When I see words like "anyone who thinks otherwise... is being silly," "All other press secretaries are..." and "who never, not ever..." I just feel compelled to post a rebuttal, in order to point out that life is seldom binary. Obviously, since you've seen "Thank You for Smoking" and enjoyed it, you understand what I'm talking about.

      You're cute. And, yes, warm, fuzzy, and silly.

      That's the nicest thing anyone on Slashdot has said about me in years. Although, maybe the fuzzy part isn't so good, now that I think about it.

      --
      Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  61. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Funny how right-wingers still bring this up and ALWAYS misrepresent what Markos said. You may not know it but Markos grew up in El Salvador during the civil war, he has family members who were killed by mercenaries. He also served in the US military, and like most who have served he has significant qualms about the use of mercenaries. Go look up his ACTUAL comments, if you still think they are outrageous then think about the fact that he is a veteran of both the US military and of a civil war in which mercenary death squads murdered members of his family.

  62. mod down - text is altered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    mod down - text is altered

  63. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by A*OnYourA** · · Score: 2, Informative

    Oil prices have risen because the 6 oil companies that control our government have cut down production. No new oil refineries have been built in the US since 1976. We are at an 8 year high in supply for oil, we just don't refine it!

    A congressional investigation uncovered internal memos written by the major oil companies operating in the U.S. discussing their successful strategies to maximize profits by forcing independent refineries out of business, resulting in tighter refinery capacity. From 1995-2002, 97% of the more than 920,000 barrels of oil per day of capacity that have been shut down were owned and operated by smaller, independent refiners. Were this capacity to be in operation today, refiners could use it to better meet today's reformulated gasoline blend needs. Profit margins for oil refiners have been at record highs. In 1999, for every gallon of gasoline refined from crude oil, U.S. oil refiners made a profit of 22.8 cents. By 2004, the profits jumped 80% to 40.8 cents per gallon of gasoline refined. Between 2001 and mid-2005, the combined profits for the biggest five refiners was $228 billion. - Public Citizen

    If you look at these oil companies investor reports, you will see it is price gouging. Take Exxon/Mobil. Last year as a share of capital investment, Exxon Mobil made a 46% rate of return on it's US oil operations, a 59% profit margin on it's US oil refining, totalling $36 billion. They love reporting this information to their investors. While a barrel of oil costs $20 to make, they turn around and sell it for $70.

    It's a myth that Saudis or some organization sets these prices. The prices are set on energy trading markets. Back in 2000, Enron lobbied hard for the "Commodities Futures Modernization Act." Look it up. It deregulated the energy trading exhanges, meaning over half of the trades are unregulated. When the oil companies are the main ones throwing money around on these exchanges, it's easy for them to hike up the price.

    As for the Democrats, yes they do receive money. But if you look at the percentage of campaign contributions going to Republicans, Republicans receive 4 times as much money from oil companies than democrats. That means Republicans should be hung 4 times as high for making consumers deal with this BS.

    See Tyson Slocon's testimony before the Senate:
    http://www.citizen.org/cmep/energy_enviro_nuclear/ articles.cfm?ID=13912
    Oil Refiners:
    http://wyden.senate.gov/leg_issues/reports/wyden_o il_report.pdf
    http://69.63.136.213/cmep/energy_enviro_nuclear/el ectricity/Oil_and_Gas/articles.cfm?ID=11829
    http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/printer_100605I. shtml
    Campaign Contributions:
    http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?In d=E01
  64. The People Trying to Push This Through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...are some of the most powerful people in the country. People such as Rupert Murdoch. What a greedy, two-faced, snake that guy is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch

    I have little hope that him and his kind wont get his way. The internet we all know and love is not likely to last more than a few more years.

  65. Common Misconception by statemachine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Thus, it is not the obligation of the owners of these 'highways' to let anyone use it or let anyone use it for a lower market value.

    Every backbone provider is being paid for use of their networks. I fault the "cloud" concept of the Internet for the public's ignorance, because people just assume their data magically gets to the other side through sheer benevolence on the part of the unseen network providers. When people say that Level 3 doesn't pay AT&T for carrying traffic, and then they use that premise to promote quality of service fees, what is not largely understood (or purposely left out) is that AT&T doesn't pay Level 3 for carrying traffic either! If AT&T starts degrading Level 3's traffic unless a fee is paid, AT&T will see either Level 3 asking AT&T for money for its traffic, or Level 3 will drop its peering and start routing traffic around AT&T (as will every other backbone network), thus leaving AT&T to pay *more* for connectivity or live in a black hole.

    Please read up on Internet Peering, the practice of two large networks exchanging traffic for mutual benefit.

  66. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by diggum · · Score: 0

    oh, shut up.

  67. bitch please! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You and I laid that fiber with our tax dollars and still Verizon and the other big telcos get sweetheart treatment from congress and FCC no matter what they do. In a perfect world, when you pay someone to do something for you that is mutually beneficial and then they try to abuse that in a way that fucks you over, you put the smack down on them. In this case Verizon, et. al. have decided that our efforts in helping them do something mutually beneficial to both of us were not enough for them and now they are trying to fuck us over. Plus there is that whole "common carrier" concept that is apparently like a law or something, it would be totally cool if the government would enforce the motherfucking law, but for some totally weird and unknown reason they doN't Seem to reAlly give a shit...

  68. word up! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we're the reality-based community. we demand competence in our representatives and results from our policies.

  69. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well since he apparently doesn't know what these mercenaries do (glorified and well paid security guards) I guess he's just ignorant than. If he can't comprehend that a single word can encompass many different meaning then I'm frightened that people actually listen to him.

  70. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by deanj · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First off, it's the gas refineries that are the problem, since there are so few.

    Considering that the Democrats have prevented new gasoline refineries from being built in the last 10 or 15 years and that the oil companies profits on one gallon of gas are around 9 cents, I find your arguments (and all those links you provide), completely unconvincing. Don't even get me started on the amount that ever single gallon of gas is taxed.

    We'd be better off building more refineries and eliminating some of the massive taxes on gasoline, and spending less time citing hand picked statistics.

  71. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by rossifer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No new oil refineries have been built in the US since 1976. We are at an 8 year high in supply for oil, we just don't refine it!

    Perhaps you could let the oil companies know of a location where they could set up a new refinery. It would need to be near existing oil distribution systems and the neighbors and local community ordinances will need to not oppose the development. Shouldn't be too hard, right?

    If you look at these oil companies investor reports, you will see it is price gouging. Take Exxon/Mobil. Last year as a share of capital investment, Exxon Mobil made a 46% rate of return on it's US oil operations, a 59% profit margin on it's US oil refining, totalling $36 billion.

    These prices and profits can also be explained by limited supply (in gasoline and other refined products) and high demand. Limiting supply in many markets is only possible with a cartel, but there are exceptions. It all depends on the cost of entry. In refined oil products, there is no new entry. It is currently impossible to build a new refinery in the US for any amount of money. So you have an upper cap on supply with no upper cap on demand. High prices are the result as the demand curve shifts against the supply curve. Econ 101.

    The problem is the "build absolutely nothing anywhere at any time" attitude that residents and communities currently have. Which they (and you and I) will start paying for with higher fuel prices. Which I don't mind. Personally, I think the government ought to phase in an additional 50% tax on gasoline to push the price still higher (and all of the interest in alternate fuel and power that will engender).

    Regards,
    Ross

  72. Who laid that fiber? by wytcld · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hate to break it to you, but it wasn't Verizon. It was outfits like Global Crossing and Metromedia Fiber and so on, most of whom built out much too fast and then went belly up. Their investors and creditors paid for that fiber. Now a lot of it has been bought up by Verizon (and, apparently, Google) at pennies on the dollar. Verizon's gotten it almost free, most all of it is laid through public right-of-way. So you're saying because they've had this windfall in fiber capacity (most of which they've held off the market so far) they deserve a further windfall in being able to monopolize their sectors of the Internet?

    Note when it was built the business plan was to make model under the old, network neutral, model. It was never an investment towards a proprietary net.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    1. Re:Who laid that fiber? by Sandor+at+the+Zoo · · Score: 1

      Hate to break it to you, but it wasn't Verizon.

      I'm not sure we're talking about the same fiber. In all the towns around me in MA, Verizon trucks were crawling down every street stringing fiber. When I ordered FIOS, they ran fiber from the pole to my house.

      Googling for "Verizon fiber cost" turns up this article, which says Verizon plans to roll out fiber-optic connections to every home and business in its 29-state territory over the next 10 to 15 years...It will cost $20 billion to $40 billion.

      I suppose that's "free" for very small values of "billion".

    2. Re:Who laid that fiber? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the article DOESN'T cover (surprise) is that the cost for running that fibre is being underwritten by the US State Dept. The ACTUAL cost to Verizon? About 20 bucks in dead-tree memos.

      For a system that they will be making MAJOR revenue on, even WITHOUT having monopolistic control over it. And since WHEN have overnment-enabled monopolies been "the american way"?

    3. Re:Who laid that fiber? by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Last mile != backbone.

      Thank you and have a nice day.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    4. Re:Who laid that fiber? by Sandor+at+the+Zoo · · Score: 1

      Last mile != backbone

      Gee, no kidding. How does that address anything I had to say, or the post I replied to?

      The point is Verizon is spending billions. "Last mile != backbone" doesn't add anything.

  73. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

    Speaking of "devoid of observable evidence," how can anything be "counterrevolutionary" without a revolution occurring first?

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  74. Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

    Just recognize where you're posting and you'll be fine. This isn't redstate or freerepublic - it's /., which - as you've noticed - has a number of "liberal" members. Many of them are working from different worldviews as you, so you may need to back up a bit and explain why you think the way you do - even points you may take as granted. If you are impolite about your points (see "LOL - You people slay me"), or don't back them up, you're ripe for criticism.

    If you post about "2nd Law of Thermodynamics" on an evolution thread, you will be flamed. This is because 90% of us here have heard that "point" debunked about 50 times, and you should know better.

    I mean, look at your post:

    Well argued = making points and using facts that people here are willing to acknolege.

    Less than polite = Something anyone beloved here has done thats not quite kosher

    Gotten Wrong or Misrepresented = Things which are not to be spoken of


    It's quite obvious you're not taking me seriously. You distort my meaning and you don't link to a single thread to back up your claims.

    If you have a point, make it cogently. Don't just say "it's been proven that the Iraq war saved more lives than it cost" - it hasn't been proven to me. Find the numbers and tell me how you reached that conclusion. If you're not willing to provide me a path to logically reach the same conclusion as you are already at, what reason do I have to take your claim at face value?

    I've seen plenty of intelligently-argued discussions here. From your post though, I'd say it's your tone that keeps you shut out of those.

    1. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Oh man youv'e hit terminal lefty sanctimoniousness in only 2 posts congrats

      But youre absolutely right I am not taking you seriously why should I.

      You demand in the classic manner of the arrogant left that I don't provide evidence that I should find you the numbers to support my case when you havent even provided a single putative example to support your argument. As the UFO nuts are so loathe to hear Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence. If you want posts and examples for my position just read this thread. Topic is clinton administration misdeeds. The other 4 you can find in any thread on the topic here.

      But even so I will dredge something up, Oh hows this "If you post about "2nd Law of Thermodynamics" on an evolution thread, you will be flamed. This is because 90% of us here have heard that "point" debunked about 50 times, and you should know better. ". I dont recall mentioning a stand on the 2nd law, I just said that Darwinian evolution is incomplete. Second the point to hit on that is much simpler. Science only works when it predicts things that can be verified. You will never ever be able to say this is how things happened in the past and its the only way they happened using science. When science attempts that it ceases to be science and starts being religion.

      The other part of your argument that people here are open Well. I have had posts modded to plus 5 to minus 2 and back at least 3 or four cycles on an individual post. You want to tell me thats not true believers who will fight for their freedom of speach and for your right not to be heard. Currently I have a post on this thread modded troll because I pointed out that theres hardly anything astonishing about the fact that a clinton official was able to be bought. Oh yes people are open over here and tolerant of opposing points of view too.

    2. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Oh man youv'e hit terminal lefty sanctimoniousness in only 2 posts congrats ... I am not taking you seriously

      Maybe I'm being "sanctimonious" again, but if you start out with an ad hominem, you'll put people on the defensive and encourage flames. Look - if you want me (or anyone else) to take your arguments seriously, you'll have to return the favour.

      You demand in the classic manner of the arrogant left that I don't provide evidence that I should find you the numbers

      We both have the right to ask for evidence and sources to claims that haven't been verified. If you need me to provide evidence for one of my points - go ahead and ask.

      If you want posts and examples for my position just read this thread.

      Okay - let's take this one, where you claim that Clinton was the only good economic result out of four dem presidents. You don't point to any evidence of this. Now - neither do your detractors, but all that does is make them just as bad at arguing as you, and leaving you both feeling as if you weren't taken seriously. You are both coming at this discussion from different points of view, and it is absolutely necessary to explain that view to each other in order for meaningful communication to take place.

      I've read through more of your posts, and they're full of sarcasm. The problem is, you're not in a conservative echo chamber either. You can't make a joke about Al Gore inventing the internet without expecting people to jump on it and tell you he was misquoted. If you're going to post here, you have to cut the sarcasm and stick to facts, because any humour or snark you're trying to inject is going to be lost on the audience.

      I dont recall mentioning a stand on the 2nd law, I just said that Darwinian evolution is incomplete.
      I hadn't read your posts when I mentioned this - It's just one big beef of mine, and serves as a good example of dishonest argument. I don't want to get into an evolutionary discussion here, but if you can come up with a good alternative to evolutionary theory that explains the evidence better - and explain it well...not only will you find an appreciative audience here, you'll probably win a Nobel prize.

      BTW - evolutionary theory has made predictions. Dinosaurs with feathers and fish with lungs, for instance - including the approximate age of the rocks they're found in. (I know there are counterarguments to this out there - but the idea that evolution "doesn't make predictions" is simply false).

      I stand by my assertion that people here are open, but you do have to be civilized about it. Having read through your other posts, I can tell you your tone is the problem. The sheer contempt you display for "liberals" and "lefties" automatically turns people off and makes them want to flame you.

    3. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      People here are open.

      You really need to learn how to read.
      claim that Clinton was the only good economic result out of four dem presidents.

      No I claimed he was the only one who could lay any claim to a balanced budget. This is a matter of history and you should have this in your basic stock of knowledge.

      Al Gore inventing the internet. That wasn't a joke it was just sad. The same way he claimed he claimed his mother sang him the ILGWU song to sleep. or the way he went to Dubai and made anti american speaches while we were at war.

      I don't want to get into an evolutionary discussion here Then why start one ? Oh you are making assertions for predictive history ? OK

      I don't have contempt for libs and lefties well maybe contempt for socialists but its at the level I have contempt for any failed cult. Libs and lefties in general have contempt for themselves. There is a deep vein of self hatred and guilt they feed off. Not to mention the arrogant need to assert responsibility for things they had no control over and virtually nothing to do with. If they were truly proud of their positions when I challenge them on them they should shout back and join the fray. Instead they are such cowards they mod my points down so they can't be seen.


      If I am so wrong let my words speak for themselves.

    4. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      If youre centrist, libertarian or just non Ideological I would suggest growing a thick skin and understanding that the more you demonstrate that there is more to the world than the slashbots comprehend the more they will hate you for it.

      Please even the worst of the left couldnt make the jump from what I wrote above to the idea that there would be a witchunt with torches as you imply. If the straw man you set up were so than I should be surprised because I have excellent Karma and most of what I write isn't modded down. If you had of actually read the thread you inserted yourself into or the post you were replying to, you might have realized what I was talking about. Here it is in bite size pieces, there are specific areas were no rational discussion is tolerated on slashdot. Libertarians, conservatives and centrists need to have very thick Skins when they venture on to them. Here is an example for you to think about, Both bill clinton and george bush managed to win elections without actually winning the majority of the popular vote. Why is it that the slashdot crowd would say that george bush stole an election but bill clinton did not.

    5. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Just a quick reply:

      Sorry, you meant I have to learn to write - I put an "economic" where I should have had a "financial".

      Al Gore did not "invent" the internet, but it is neither a joke, nor sad. He never claimed to. That is what I meant when people here will not appreciate it. The only joke is people who still claim that he claimed to invent the internet.

      Not wanting to get into an evolutionary discussion: I merely wanted to give a good example of a myth that would get you flamed on /. I suppose the Gore/Internet one above would have sufficed though.

      I said nothing about predicting the past. The prediction was that fossils would be found that matched certain configurations - found after the prediction was made. Just because the "experiment" was done before the results were looked at does not invalidate that experiment. It's like mixing oil and water, then asking someone what they think the result will be. The experiment was performed in the past, and theory predicts that when the results are looked at, you'll see a certain result (oil and water separated).

      The rest just seemed to be a rant about lefties and liberals, which really has no bearing on this conversation. But I'd caution you against generalizing - while you may see the 1% of "lefties and liberals" that mod you down, you seem to ignore the other 99% that either skip past your posts, or even take the time to reply (as so many have, looking at your comment history)

    6. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Because the results of that election had been disputed and disputed again, and the Supreme Court finally making a decision before there was a clear winner.

      That's why (a minority of) "the slashdot crowd" would say that about that particular election.

      And if the Supremes had decided for Gore, there would be a faction on the right claiming the exact same thing. I personally think a full recount should have been done for Florida - counting hanging chads and any other situation where voter intent was clear - before declaring a winner. It would reduce "stolen election!" charges by an order of magnitude for the 2000 election.

    7. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      :-) Like to buy a bridge or some land ?

      Youve been sold and you don't even know it. Why was that election so heavily disputed but not clintons or nixons in 1960. Why did the supreme court feel the need overturn a decision by the florida supreme court in such a preemptory manner ?

      Like I always say think it through. If you are actually accomplishing something expect to be angry.

    8. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Yeah - it was much more fair to have the Supreme Court stop the recount than let it continue.

      If you cared about more than simply winning, you'd be angry too (see? I can make baseless assuptions about you too!)

    9. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      You mean the second recount. The recount recquired by florida law was done.

    10. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Not referring to any particular recount, actually. I just think that every single ballot in Florida should have been recounted. It was far too important a vote to leave any question as to the results.

      Not asking for a full recount? Gore's mistake. Not forcing a full recount? The nation's mistake.

    11. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      There was a full recount.
      What gore wanted was a hand recount. The reason he wanted a hand recount is they are less accurate. Think about it. A very close race a count and a recount shows bush the winner, what would a hand count do ? Plus gore wasnt interested in getting every vote count he was only interested in getting counts from certain counties, while asking for absentee millitary ballots to be discarded.

      Like I said you were sold. Someone who had the opportunity sold you this concept and you didnt even know you were buying it. Its obvious to anyone but you and others that have had the same or similar bits of programming. Thats why I laugh at libs and lefties they have abandoned humanity to be walking tape players and a mass of conditioned responses.

    12. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      From a 2000 election timeline at CNN:

      November 10: The Florida machine recount is completed. Unofficial results, gathered by the Associated Press, give Bush a lead of only 327 votes out of nearly 6 million cast.

      327 votes. 0.002% of the population of Florida. Machine-counted. With hanging/dimpled/pregnant chad problems that could sway the vote either way. This is simply not a fair result, no matter what side you're on. I'd ask for a hand-recount too, if I was up for president, and a significant number of votes may have been lost to machine counting.

      I don't know what conspiracy you think was taking place before the Supreme Court saved us all, but there's also a completely reasonable explanation. But hey - spell it out for me and provide some sources. I'm not above changing my mind if there's ample evidence.

    13. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      I'm not above changing my mind if there's ample evidence.

      Sure youre not kid. Why dont you try this gather up a couple bucks in pennies from change around your home count it twice see if you come up with the same number and then imagine doing that for 6 million pennies.

      Why don't you try and think of what might have happened if the SCOTUS hadn't knocked down the florida supreme court when it had decided to rewrite the states election laws.

    14. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Sure youre not kid.

      Sure I'm not. I've done it before and I'll do it again. But you're offering me nothing but innuendo.

      Pennies? Get together a few hundred people. Divide them into teams (let's call them D's and R's). Assign one D and R to each group. Have each group keep counting their pile until they both agree on the number of pennies.

      Sum up the total from all groups. That's the number of pennies.

      At least that way, both teams agree on the total. Which I think is the main problem - there was no willingness shown to come up with a solution that could at least be agreed upon. The result was pushed through, and left a lot of people unsatisfied.

    15. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Do you actually think about what you say ?

      I'll leave you with two simple questions.

      Which do you think is more likely to cheat you a cashier or an ATM

      Do you decide the rules of a game before you start playing or after its over ?

    16. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      God you're a moron! (it just seems you begin every post with an invective, thought I'd try it on, see how it feels)

      Anyway, on to the answers!

      Which do you think is more likely to cheat you a cashier or an ATM
      Cashier. But if there's a question about the accuracy of a transaction, you bring in the (human) manager either way.

      Do you decide the rules of a game before you start playing or after its over ?
      Before. But in this case the rules were none too clear. If a chad is dimpled, is that a vote, or not? It's clear who the voter intended to cast their vote for, but the chad is dimpled!

      This was a unique situation in US history - a single state determining the presidency by a small fraction of a percent of the voting population. If it was for the next American Idol, I'd say let the SC decide and be done with it, but for the Presidency of the United States of America? The whole thing was determined by political maneuvering and lawsuits, rather than finding out who actually got the most votes.

    17. Re:Wrong Again by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Well you can lead a hore to water but you can't make him think

      Uh no it was not a unique situation.

      It had happened 3 times before and one of the prior times involved florida as well. There were other examples as well. The election of 1960 is the best example. I remember in 200 thinking that Nixon had shown considerably more concern for the country and class in general than Al Gore did in 2000.

      The manager was brought in problem was one of the parties didn't like what Ms. Harris had to say.

      Rules were plain before the game problem was they didn't yield the desired result.

    18. Re:Wrong Again by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      The manager was brought in problem was one of the parties didn't like what Ms. Harris had to say.

      "The bank manager was brought in problem was he took the cashiers side when she'd clearly cheated me"

      Rules were plain before the game problem was they didn't yield the desired result.
      Rules were not plain before the game. Answer this - if a machine malfunctions and counts zero for candidate X, but provides paper ballots that show 123 votes for candidate X, which do you use? The rules can't *possibly* be plain, because so many things can go wrong, and you have to use a little common sense.

    19. Re:Wrong Again by laughingcoyote · · Score: 1

      You might be surprised. Many of us will in fact listen. That does not, of course, mean that we will agree.

      A request for empirical evidence or a source cite is -always- valid-and you're free to make those requests as well. The fact that you haven't doesn't change the fact that your opponent is stating a valid point.

      Don't look advice from the other side too hard in the mouth! Yes, slashdot does have a large number of liberals-but I've also seen a far higher than average number of radical conservatives and those such as anarchocapitalists. I've debated many of them, and while I have not come to agree with their position, we have managed to have civil and reasonable debates. However, it is indeed up to both sides to maintain decorum-such posts as "LOL (insert text)" or "reached the pinnacle of sanctimony..." do not fit. If you do believe that your opponent is wrong, simply refute the point-if it is indeed so badly wrong, that should be easy to do.

      More then anything, it is critical that we return to reasonable, rational debate, based on facts and logic rather than opinion, religion, and hysteria. You seem to wish to do so-I suggest you do. If your opponent acts the fool while you remain calm, it's you who comes out ahead.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
  75. Employment by wytcld · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We're drifting off topic, but the national unemployment rate doesn't take into account the number of discouraged workers, who have simply given up looking, which has got to be at an all time high because the number of new jobs created under Bush has consistently been lower than the number just to keep up, on a percentage basis, with the increase in population. Plus the median wages under Bush have not even kept up with inflation - after making real advances under Clinton for the first time since the sixties. Meanwhile the economy has kept going only by household debt raising to unprecidented heights, just as Bush has run the national debt to heights never seen before.

    Okay, to come back to topic: We're really out on a limb here. Either we Americans will innovate our way out of the debt hole we've collectively dug under Bush's leadership, or we're going to see another Great Depression, as the dollar falls violently against other currencies (the Asians are already tiring of propping it up by buying our debt), and personal bankruptcies multiply as mortgages become unpayable. Most people who lose jobs now only find new jobs that pay much less. The only thing that can save us (aside from not electing any more Bushes) is radical economic innovation, of the sort we saw in the 90s before the Enron-style hucksters got ahold of it and milked the boom. And the only way to promote that innovation is to keep the Net neutral, and control of the economy away from the dinosaur-like old-line megacorps (particularly in communications and energy and banking) which have done so much to push us towards the precipice we risk falling over.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  76. Bah. Why the hell did you blank out "shit"? by sudog · · Score: 1

    That's pretty bad.

    1. Re:Bah. Why the hell did you blank out "shit"? by chawly · · Score: 1

      You sure it was shit that was blanked out ? Might have been shite. Dangerous today, if it was shite.

      --
      How many beans make five, anyhow ? ... Charles Walmsley
  77. Re:DailyKos is pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you think the GOP has been up to for the past decade? Have you not noticed the radical transformation of our government that they have accomplished?

  78. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1
    "Perhaps you could let the oil companies know of a location where they could set up a new refinery."

    Actually, perhaps first you could persuade them to do so. As I understand it, they're not actually dying to build new refineries. That's B.S. that has been made up for you. Or is driving the cost of their product down somehow in their interest?

    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
  79. Screw McCurry by BocaJuniors · · Score: 1

    I feel nothing over the fall from grace of Mike McCurry. He isn't lobbying for the telcos because he has to, or because he is trying to help the internet be a better place. He is lobbying for profit. Screw him.

  80. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by rossifer · · Score: 1

    As I understand it, they're not actually dying to build new refineries. That's B.S. that has been made up for you.

    Your argument doesn't pass even basic muster. The issue isn't whether the incumbents are building refineries, but whether or not anyone is building refineries. When new entrepreneurs can't build refineries to cash in on the gasoline shortage, it isn't a lack of will, it's an impossibly high barrier to entry.

    Stated another way: if you are convinced that there are hundreds of millions to be made by selling gasoline from a new refinery (which there is) and that it isn't too hard to build a new refinery, you should put together a business plan, convince some investors, and get in on the easy money. Even a little refinery could convert some of that excess supply and make you and your investors a nice bundle of cash... All you have to do is figure out where to put your new refinery.

    No? Hmmm.

    Or is driving the cost of their product down somehow in their interest?

    No, maximizing their profit is, and with the profits that are being returned, you can bet that every entrepreneur who knows about oil is trying to find a way to get their part of those profits. But those new competitors can't get in. Because you can't build a new refinery in the US.

    So it doesn't matter if the oil companies want to build, they aren't where the real test of the cost of entry happens.

    Regards,
    Ross

  81. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by Bright_Steel · · Score: 1

    Fact is the State of California forced one of the oil companies to sell an oil refinery they want to close two or three years ago. If the government didn't intervene no entrepreneur would of had a chance to buy it.

    Two problems with entrepeneurs:
    1. where do you buy the oil? A few companies own most of the refineries and domestic supply plus and have the market power to cut better deals on crude than the little one refinery guy will.
    2. Who do you sell it to? The big three are owning a bigger and bigger percent of the retail gas stations.
    3. What happens if the price goes down? The big three integrated firms can cut you off at the knees with their control of crude and retail.

  82. 'Democrats' stopped refinery building?! by FatSean · · Score: 1

    I thought it was regular people who voted to disallow these ugly polluting structures near themselves. I guess the environmental nuts (OK, that must be the group you meant) wanted to protect our groundwater and other resources and so pressed to not build more.

    Maybe we could just USE LESS, ya think? Eat less food, burn less fuel...you know, don't be a hog.

    --
    Blar.
  83. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by jjr1 · · Score: 1

    All the rage these days seems to be decrying the companies involved when most of the companies realize that excess oil prices, although positive at the moment, will lead to headaches down the road. There was a recent Wired article that listed three different energy alternatives that would be viable around 90$ a barrel. I think these companies realize that when it hits that price, they have serious competition especially because of the negative reputation of oil producing countries and the serious environmental costs.

    --
    Best Trivia answer ever... Name the largest aquatic man eater... Contestant: Tsunami
  84. No Such Thing As Left Or Right Or Central Etc. by cannuck · · Score: 0

    Syndicated journalist, Molli Ivins, states there is no such thing as left or right (or centrist) - that what one needs to do with any issue - is to find out who is getting SCREWED and who is doing the SCREWING.

    At any given moment, anyone of any political stripe will more often then not SCREW anyone - even someone with the same political stripe - if there is enough power and money as a reward

    Naturally using "left and right" spinning is used to create a smoke screen - to help hide what is actually happening - to "divide and conquer". Traditionally the British have used "divide and conquer" to SCREW people all over the world for the past several hundred years (at least)

    Ever time I see (or hear) the words "left" and "right" - I cringe. At the same time - it's a useful flag to know the TV program or newspaper article or radio program is about to unload a truck load of bullshit.

  85. What it means to be a Democrat by hey! · · Score: 3, Informative

    "There are millions and millions of good Democrats who get paid by corporations," he said, "and I think every time we bash corporations, we just turn off people who are in the middle of the political spectrum."

    Oh, speaking as a Demcorat, I can agree that it's a bad thing to "bash" corporations, provided that by "bash" you mean "persecute in an arbitrary and unreasonable manner."

    However,it's profoundly against what it means to be a Democrat to call it "bashing" just because you aren't doing what an individual corporation or cartel would like. What it means to be a Demcorat is to belive that the government is the custodian of the public good, as measured by the effect on the welfare and freedom on a typical person. Sometimes this means standing in the way of private companies, sometimes this means stepping aside, and sometimes this means encouraging them. In the end the significance of the corporation's welfare is, in itself, zero. If a policy is good for the public and good for a corporation, that's nice. But if a policy is good for the public and bad for an individual corporation, or even corporations as a whole, it's still a good policy.

    That's what distinguishes us from the Republicans, who think this is very nearly a logical contradiction. You don't have to be anti-corporate to be a Democrat. You can still be a Demcorat an think that 99.9% of the time favoring corporations as a whole favors the public. You just can't think that favoring corporations and favoring people is the same thing.

    You can be a Democrat and make an argument against net neutrality -- it's an uphill battle, but it can be done. You just have to show a quid pro quo in which the public gives up the right to unfettered competition in Internet content, but gains something more valuable in return. It's hard to imagine what this would be though. With cable and the end of rules limiting ownership of broadcast outlets and newspapers, we're seeing the end of the traditional media as a marketplace of ideas, even if economic competition continues unabated. What will happen when corporations can favor their own Internet media as well?

    "The Internet is not a free public good. It is a bunch of wires and switches and connections and pipes and it is creaky."

    This is also completely wrong.

    The Internet is not a bunch of wires and switches. It's a shared consensus on how to interconnect networks and computers. Granted consumers connect to the Internet over and individual vendor's equipment; in fact when you plug your computer into the network your computer becomes, technically speaking, part of the Internet. This doesn't mean you own part of the Internet. It means your equipment is participating in it.

    It follows that no cartel of vendors should be allowed to sieze control of the Internet by aquiring control strategic pieces of it. That was what the medieval barons, who were really no than brigands, used to do. They'd build a castle on a river or at a mountain pass and bled the commerce that went through it.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  86. hypocrites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Criticize Fox News and post stories from DailyKOS. Bias is ok, if it's to the left I guess.

  87. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by NMerriam · · Score: 2, Informative

    First off, it's the gas refineries that are the problem, since there are so few.
    Yes, it is. (though you wouldn't know it from all the oil execs lying and blaming ethonol producers, the US Congress and OPEC a few months ago).

    Considering that the Democrats have prevented new gasoline refineries from being built in the last 10 or 15 years and that the oil companies profits on one gallon of gas are around 9 cents, I find your arguments (and all those links you provide), completely unconvincing.

    Nobody is preventing new refineries from being built other than the oil companies. Hi, put down your GOP playbook and come on down to visit us here on the gulf coast where we do the vast majority of refining and local governments have been trying to get refineries built for decades. We've got entire cities whose citizens do nothing but running oil refineries and they'd all love to have new ones built. I can take you on a tour of Pasadena and Beaumont if you like, and introduce you to a few thousand of my close personal friends in industry and government who'd love the tax base and the overtime.

    The only reason we don't have refineries being built is because there is no incentive to do so -- oil companies can sell 1,000,000 barrels for $70,000,000, or they can invest billions in refineries and sell 1,000,000 barrels for $50,000,000. It's a no-brainer, it's far more profitable to operate fewer refineries and charge more for the product. And since all the companies have merged, there's no possibility of somebody upsetting the apple cart, they just silently agree to do nothing and everybody gets richer. It's not like you and I are going to get some buddies together and build a $2 billion refinery to compete with them (ExxonMobil made almost $10 billion PROFIT at the end of 2005! That's 5 refineries right there -- ask anyone in Houston how fast the companies are throwing that money at every conceivable project they can find for tax breaks, but none of those projects are refineries!)

    It's no different than in California when the out of state suppliers were artifically jacking up prices by just shutting down electric generators during peak periods for "maintenance". Why go to all the hard work of maximizing production when you can make more money by minimizing it? So what if the country as a whole gets f*cked in the process? The beauty is that they can make more money for less work, and people like you who've never worked in oil and gas actually believe them when they blame it on the big, bad government!

    --
    Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
  88. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by NMerriam · · Score: 1

    Where do you live? Clearly not on the Gulf Coast, as there are plenty of places here who'd be happy to have ten oil refineries built. The problem (for us, not for the oil companies) is that it's more profitable to restrict production than it is to meet demand. See California's externally-created artificial energy crisis for proof of that. We can send you some tapes from here in Texas of Enron traders laughing at brownouts while they make $100/kWh from turning off generators during peak demand, but then that wouldn't quite fit in with your idyllic notion of how the free market works -- after all, if it was really a problem, me and a few friends could go and build ourselves a power station in a week to cash in on those huge artifical profits!

    --
    Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
  89. perhaps that's because by alizard · · Score: 1
    Red State users are the kind of people who think future technology is whatever is created by MS and therefore have no use for slashdot?

    Seriously, why would a bunch of "creation science" types who get their opinions about the environment from Exxon-Mobil junk "scientists" (aka PR flacks) have anything to say that would be interest at a technology/science site? We're not likely to have any interest in content-free "balance" on technology and science subjects from people who know zip about either.

    If you want to find a place full of Republicans who think they're clued about technology and might have opinions of interest to slashdotters, try Always-On Network, the VC / entrepreneur / wannabe blog.

  90. hopefully, this will finish McCurry by alizard · · Score: 1
    People like McCurry are retained by corporations for the sake of their political influence, both with legislators and their own political community.

    McCurry's name is mud in the Democratic activist community, of which Daily Kos is an important part. Hopefully, he'll be so radioactive after this that legislators won't want to be associated publically with him.

    He should quit whining, suck it up, and deal. Influence peddling for a living has its occupational hazards. Especially when one tries to sell it to the wrong people.

    Perhaps Exxon-Mobil can find him a PR job. Or NAMBLA.

  91. MOD PARENT UP by alizard · · Score: 1

    Though responding to GOP groupthink with facts really isn't fair.

  92. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by rossifer · · Score: 1

    Where do you live? Clearly not on the Gulf Coast, as there are plenty of places here who'd be happy to have ten oil refineries built.

    I've lived in Houston and been scuba diving and fishing up and down the Gulf Coast. I know that the residents of Matogorda are not particularly thrilled with their local refineries (after one notable accident about four years ago). I know that the refineries closer to Houston are similarly considered an eyesore and a downward pressure on the neighbor's property value.

    your idyllic notion of how the free market works

    Based on this statement alone, it's clear that you have dramatically misunderstood me. I do not believe that 100% free markets result in social good or even fair outcomes for producers and consumers (as some lassie-faire advocates do believe). In general, I believe there are categories of regulation (public safety, truth in advertising, warranty enforcement, consumer advocacy, etc.) that are almost universally needed, and many other industry-specific categories of regulation (internet open carrier rules, etc.) that are also quite important.

    See California's externally-created artificial energy crisis for proof of that. We can send you some tapes from here in Texas of Enron traders laughing at brownouts while they make $100/kWh from turning off generators during peak demand,

    I've watched the Enron documentary (I currently live in Southern California), and I got pretty indignant at the blatant supply manipulations to inflate profits, joking about taking grannie's life savings et. al. They confirmed my belief that government regulation of critical resources is not simply a good idea, but an absolute necessity to maintain a functioning market.

    What I don't accept without a lot more information is that the oil companies' lack of new refinery construction is entirely or mostly greed based. I think they could make more money with more capacity and I'm pretty sure they know that. I know for a fact that in Southern California, where I live now, there was one attempt to build a new refinery near Long Beach, and another attempt to expand one of the refineries currently operating in Long Beach. These efforts have been ongoing for at least three years. Both projects have been stopped cold by lawsuits and red tape put up by the local community.

    The combined interests of property value, public safety, and environmental concerns (among many others) are all against new industrial development, even in areas already zoned for industry. Once those concerns are removed or made irrelevant, let's see if the oil companies build any more capacity. Until then, there are simply too many reasons not to build for anyone to conclusively say that it's all about greed.

    Regards,
    Ross

  93. in the Democratic Party by alizard · · Score: 1
    the "Wall Street" faction is the Democratic Leadership Council, (DLC) which was created by Bill Clinton and friends for the purpose of putting a corporate-friendly face on the Democratic Party which would get corporate campaign money Democrats could use to win elections with. The URL connects to a history of the DLC and discusses where they get their funding, including the ultra-right wing political foundations like Bradley and Olin.

    After Clinton retired, the DLC demonstrated an inability to win elections, they deserve the credit for losing the House, Senate, and White House. But since most Congressional Democrats are DLCers, we're still stuck with the DLC.

    The disconnect between Democratic party activists at places like DailyKos and "national Democrats" is fairly complete.

  94. Re:keep your laws off my network. by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    Actually you can't. You would need to run cable to millions of homes

  95. Endcap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just to tie this off real quick...

    MONKEY WAFFLES!!!!!

  96. And by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    And there it is bravo.

    "The bank manager was brought in problem was he took the cashiers side when she'd clearly cheated me"
    The rules can't *possibly* be plain, because so many things can go wrong, and you have to use a little common sense.
    I think youre done. But thank you for going exactly where I thought you would and confirming my initial assesment.

    1. Re:And by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      You're welcome, thank you for confirming mine.

    2. Re:And by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Look, I'm sorry - I know this isn't really part of the game, but I just have to know.

      Troll or stupid?

  97. Re:LOL on Exogenous Factors by NMerriam · · Score: 1

    Based on this statement alone, it's clear that you have dramatically misunderstood me. I do not believe that 100% free markets result in social good or even fair outcomes for producers and consumers

    Well, hey, all I can go by is what you wrote. You're the one who suggested some random guy on slashdot should go out with a few buddies and build an oil refinery, and that his inability to do so was, in fact evidence that some government force is preventing major oil companies from doing the same. It sounded like Ayn Randian "the free market is infallible" talk.

    The combined interests of property value, public safety, and environmental concerns (among many others) are all against new industrial development, even in areas already zoned for industry. Once those concerns are removed or made irrelevant, let's see...

    Nobody is ever again going to be able to build a massive, industrial structure anywhere on this planet without having to go through red tape. That's why massive, industrial structures aren't cheap -- even if you were building a hospital you'd have to spend a significant amount of time and money getting paperwork done and overcoming objections before breaking ground. Airports take a decade or more to build because of these exact same issues, and yet we get them built.

    On what day are all regulations and public concerns going to disappear or be made irrelevant? And more importantly, why hasn't every other industry in the Unites States come to a screeching halt due to those same issues? It's not like coal mines are welcomed everywhere with open arms, yet somehow the companies manage to buy out the property of opponents when it's necessary -- and they don't even have the luxury of being able to play one jurisdiction against another for financial incentives, you have to mine where the coal is.

    Yes, every 5 years or so there's an explosion or leak from either a refinery or a chemical plant on the Texas Gulf Coast. It's been that way my entire life, yet chemical plants are expanding and being built over the objections, in part because the more modern ones are safer and have less environmental impact than 30+ year old plants. For some reason, while Dow Chemical can figure out how to routinely pull this paperwork and negotiation off, ExxonMobil merely shrugs its shoulders and says its impossible? Do you believe that Dow Chemical has more political and economic influence in southeast Texas than ExxonMobil, ConocoPhilips, and Chevron/Texaco combined?

    --
    Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
  98. Your goggles do nothing by M0b1u5 · · Score: 1

    The facts contradict you: sans-serif fonts on-screen are much easier to read than serif faced fonts. The exact opposite of paper, where serif fonts beat out sans-serif by a handy margin. These facts have been established by numerous studies over the last few years - and apply to all screens of 72 dpi and 96 dpi. Once resolutions exceed 200 dpi, the differences will begin to revert back to the performance of paper. Until then; sans serif fonts rule the Internet.

    Things which improve the readability and retention of serif fonts on the web are ClearType font smoothing, (or any version of sub-pixel rendering), larger font sizes and higher dpi values on your monitor.

    What you are in fact complaining about is SMALLER fonts, I believe.

    So - hold down CTRL and roll your mouse wheel.

    VOILA!

    --
    How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
  99. Unpaid Suckers are shilling for Big Corporations by kinglitho · · Score: 1

    What Kos doesn't realize is that he is also shilling for big corporations. He just isn't getting paid for it! Microsoft, Google, et al have created a lucrative business model that is based on piggy-backing on the sweat equity of others. MS doesn't have to develop chips, assemble PCs, or worry about market share, yet they reap more profit than almost all the manufacturers combined. Same with Google; a bunch of guys had a nifty idea about using search technology to sell classified ads--by using a delivery system belonging to other companies and paid for by you and me.
    If you look at the history of broadcast radio and TV you will realize that small players can definitely compete with the big guys. Cable proved the point by adding 500 more channels. Considering the current capacity of the internet plus all the dark fiber laying around, any service provider would be an idiot to deny access to content that is available for free. If some other companies want to pay for priority access to extra bandwidth, what's wrong with that?
    On the other hand, without the pressure of market forces we face what is known as "the tragedy of the commons." Companies selling counterfeit Viagra, underage porn, and phony stock scams flood the internet, turning it into a swamp we all have to wade through to get to the useful stuff. Meanwhile, companies like Google reap huge profits off the infrastructure without contributing anything to its maintenance or development.

  100. Re:Unpaid Suckers are shilling for Big Corporation by statemachine · · Score: 1

    Same with Google; a bunch of guys had a nifty idea about using search technology to sell classified ads--by using a delivery system belonging to other companies and paid for by you and me. ... Meanwhile, companies like Google reap huge profits off the infrastructure without contributing anything to its maintenance or development.

    What? Are you seriously saying Google gets its Internet connection for *free*? If that's the case, you're horribly misguided. I responded to a similar comment in another posting, which you can read here.

  101. Infested with Republic-rats ... by wilec · · Score: 1

    The problem is there are very few true Republican or Democratic state (at least in my state) or federal Executives, Senators and Representatives. I have become fond of saying that Washington and most state capitals have become infested with Republic-rats. This is not say they are moderates, instead they seem to have managed to devolve into a vile species of creature that has the attributes of the worst aspects of both parties.

    There are way to many opportunist types calling themselves Republicans that who do not hold traditional Republican values like self responsibility, constitutional caution and thrift. Instead they seem hell bent on perverting private issues into divisive social confrontations all the while picking the pockets of the small business person and working people and creating a revolving door political-corporate oligarchical Neo-fascist big brother state.

    It also seems to me that way to many so called Democrats have forgotten the honorable liberal principles of freedom of the individual to live as they please, innovation and courage in the face of change and the ethics of striving to progressively create a more equatable society. Instead they seem too often to be obsessed with creating an always politically correct socialist nanny state, are too greedy or cowardly to say no to way too many special interest agendas, and too self interested to stand up for core liberal values.

    The sometimes conflicting agendas of true Republicans and Democrats work well to rein in the extremes of either. However the perversions of those values into what we see today may very well destroy this nation if not corrected in time. If this situation is not corrected soon our descendants may very well curse the selfishness, ignorance and cowardice of those that allowed the destruction of the greatest scientific, economic and culture power in history and allowed its children to be robbed of their hopes, dreams and liberty.

    Wabi-Sabi
    Matthew

      When the people fear their Government, there is tyranny. When the Government fears it's people, there is liberty.." Thomas Paine

  102. Google, Microsoft and Ebay by Danathar · · Score: 1

    I want this bill killed as well but...

    If Google, Microsoft and Ebay are so concerned why is none of this on their front page? If Google, Microsoft, Ebay and Yahoo threatened to net block the supporters of those bills how fast do you think the bill would die? VERY QUICKLY. What if Microsoft said to Verizon that we will no longer license any more copies of Windows to your organization if you continue to support this bill?

    Any of these actions would kill this bill outright.

  103. Re:keep your laws off my network. by LukeCrawford · · Score: 0
    Actually, I've done quite a lot of work for a company that does just that to large appartment complexes. It's not difficult. They use a combination of T1 lines and wireless access points. There is quite a lot of compitition in the last-mile arena. Would you buy DSL from a company that slowed down your access to sites that were busy but did not have a lot of revinue?

    If the last-mile providers stop providing a good value, there are thousands of small companies (like mine) who would be happy to eat their lunch. I can't compete with DSL at $14/month, but if that DSL was unable to access MySpace or google, then I could.

    My point is that niether the telcos nor the state have your interest at heart. However, the telcos are much easier to fight.