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Labs Compete to Build New Nuclear Bomb
An anonymous reader writes "Yahoo! News is reporting that two labs are currently competing to design the first new nuclear bomb in twenty years. The new bomb was approved as a part of the 2006 defense spending bill. From the article: 'Proponents of the project say the U.S. would lose its so-called "strategic deterrent" unless it replaces its aging arsenal of about 6,000 bombs, which will become potentially unreliable within 15 years. A new, more reliable weapon, they say, would help the nation reduce its stockpile.'"
Yeeehaw!
nothing.can.stop.me.now
If there were a greater investment in grammar checking programs, the article's headline would be readable.
My other sig is extremely clever...
Pfftt, please! Such old technology. Shouldn't we be building anti-matter bombs these days?
Life is not for the lazy.
Did we completely forget the point of the Moscow Treaty? We're trying to REDUCE the number of nukes, and get rid of them as much as possible. The last thing we need for peace is to bring attention to nukes again. When will it stop?
I think they meant, "Labs Compete to Built New Nuke-u-ler Bomb."
I was going to post the same exact thing, but with a little more, but I changed my mind until I read your post. It really does seem like we're saying to the world, "Do as we say, not as we do."
The US is a nation that does not keep its dominance through diplomacy and exports, but instead by force. We have an awesome military, and if things keep up, that's all we'll have going for us (which is not that great of a thing by itself).
$fortune
Tomorrow has been canceled due to lack of interest.
The US is confirmed to be producing weapons of mass destruction.
Who's up for 'liberating' them?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
People need to read the article more closely. They aren't working on these new weapons to increase the US stockpile of nukes, but just to maintain it. They are trying to create safer and more stable nukes that can be kept for long periods of time without the problems we have with current nukes. Then they plan to replace, not add to, the current nuclear stockpile with these new weapons. I am not making a judgement here on whether nukes are good or bad at all, but if the only choice is between unsafe and unstable nuclear weapons and more stable ones I will take the stable ones anyday.
Java has no friends.
Eh, Iran was told all they need to be when the US invaded Iraq.
It's simple - if you have the bomb, you're safe. If you don't have it, you'll be invaded. Given that the US seems fully ready to use military force in the middle east, what possible reason would Iran have for NOT building nukes? Nukes make a wonderful deterrant after all.
I'm not saying I agree with them, but they're certainly being logical. Given a choice between, say, a non-agression pact and a stockpile of nuclear weapons that can make the other guy think twice about declaring war, I'd take the nukes. Assurances that you won't be invaded are just words on paper after all.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
The design is so advanced it suspends causality.
With terrorists being the nr 1 threat against the US as a nation, isnt it counterproductive to renew such a large stockpile of WMD's? What kind of nation poses a direct threat to the US with equal capacity in nuclear arms? Woudnt this country serve itself and the world community if it REDUCED its nuclear stockpile?
Even though I don't technically live in the US, I do live in one of its "colonies", namely, Australia. We are in the process of getting similar IP laws to the US, we show ~80% US tv shows on our free-to-air TV stations and we followed the states in not signing the Kyoto treaty as well as going into Iraq.
Here is what I *think* the US is trying to do:
1) Strengthen it's military power as well as the fear and respect it generates
2) Use this military power (as well as its expertise with finance) to obtain new resources as well as improve the result of bargaining situations
3) ???
4) Profit!
Developing new weapons, especially those designed to inflict maximum civilian damage, pretty much follows the US plan. I wonder if China will actually take the bait of going into an arms race with the US, given that it will be ahead economically in a decade or less.
Oh well, since Australia is both an ally to the US and China (uranium deal), I think we will be fine...
Berserk Manga > All
Shouldn't we focus on building cleaner, safer atomic power for civilian use? I'm shocked there was the potilical willpower to build more weapons when we can't build a CANDU electric plant or develop reprocessing or other waste reduction technology. But why fight global warming when you can start a second global arms race?
I see four possibilities:
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
... replaces its aging arsenal of about 6,000 bombs, which will become potentially unreliable within 15 years.
This leads me to two questions. Forgive me if they're stupid, but:
(1) what happens when a bomb becomes "unreliable"?
and
(2) how will the existing/"old" bombs be disposed of?
Might come in handy when the Ur-Quan hierarchy arrives...
The Chair Corp. comic(*00-12)
Why doesn't the US just buy some new designs from South Africa, Israel, India or Pakistan?
Oh well, what the hell...
Bottom line: much less plutonium lying around, smaller yields, cleaner designs, and reduced risk profile. They are not expanding the arsenal, just cleaning it up. Since the US is going to have nukes regardless, I do not have a problem with this.
Assurances that you won't be invaded are just words on paper after all.
Exactly.
Is there anyone left on Earth who trusts anything the US Government has to say? You're more likely to get the truth from a damp sock. And usually more intelligent reasoning.
Shitdrummer.
For example, one possible use for US nuclear weapons is a strike against hardened targets in North Korea. At the moment we don't really have appropriate bombs for that purpose. If North Korea started lobbing nuclear weapons, we'd want to take as many out on the ground as possible. The current arsenal is poorly suited for that purpose.
Also remember that the only way the US can credibly deter others from using nuclear weapons is to convince those others that the US is willing and able to strike back. Building new weapons is part of that plan.
For more on the aspect of prevention and counterforce, you could read The Wizards of Armageddon, which is about how such issues played out in the 50's - 80's. Building new nuclear weapons is business-as-usual rather than a radical departure.
Isn't the safest nuclear weapon the one you DON'T make?
An updated design that is cheaper to maintain sounds like a good idea to me. However, who's to know the scope of the research? I would be shocked if they didn't design some new tactical nukes as well. And frankly, tactical nukes scare me the most because we will actually consider their use (bunker busting and such).
Sure, it sounds hypocritical, but underneath there are some very big differences between the US and Iran.
For one, the US has had "the bomb" for over 60 years, and developed/improved it in response to actual threats (ostensibly from Japan, but primarily from the Soviets). There is no comparable threat to Iran (yeah, you might say the US, but the only thing Iran has to worry about from the US is caused directly by their nuclear weapon ambitions in the first place).
For another, the US maintains its stockpiles of nuclear weapons solely to serve as a deterrent against other nations, while Iran's leadership has publicly and repeatedly declared that Israel should not exist as a state and has funded terrorist acts in order to remove it - it may very well use nuclear weapons in a first-strike effort against Israel, and even the threat of this occurring destabilizes the Middle East further than it already is.
And for a third, Iran's government maintains a stranglehold over its people - the people are fairly Westernized as the region goes, and they are interested in legitimate democracy. If Iran's government gains control of WMDs with significant range, they will ensure that other nations can never again interfere with their oppression of their own people.
Finally, the stability of the US government is much greater than that of Iran. The chances of Iran's government collapsing at some point in the future, relegating their nuclear weapons to whoever can get their hands on them first, are significant. It is thus in the interest of everyone (especially in that region, but potentially around the world) for Iran not to acquire nuclear weapons.
Besides all this, if developing a new nuclear weapon design allows the US to decrease its active stockpile of warheads, thereby reducing the cost of maintaining those weapons, decreasing the hazard their existence presents (aside from their use, of course), and generally reducing the overwhelming overkill the stockpile represents, isn't that a good thing?
Those 6000 bombs are leftovers from the coldwar and the arms buildup. It's expensive to dismantle them which is why it is taking time.
p.s. And before the knee jerkers decide to blame Bush for this, realize that these bombs were there under Carter and Clinton, and would still be here even if Gore and Kerry had won.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
The targets are North Korea and Iran. I elaborated on the former somewhat in this comment. The US is probably building somewhat smaller bombs that could be used as an emergency strike on short notice against hardened targets within those two countries. One danger of current US strategy is that its bombs are too big - does North Korea *really* believe the US will use megaton warheads against them? Maybe, maybe not. On the other hand, they should believe that the US will target their missiles with smaller weapons that will produce less collateral damage. That includes potential targets like the bunkers in which the senior leaders of North Korea hide.
That is somewhat true but it is a strawman argument. You could also easily say the safest gun is the one you don't make, but would that stop the bad guys from carrying guns. Instead of telling people they can't have guns because, "the safest gun is one you don't make" we do our best to include safety features in them.
I realize that nuclear weapons are a whole different class of weapons then any we have ever had before, but that doesn't change the fact that our current arsenal of weapons is actually deteriorating rapidly and possible prone to an attack that could detonate them. If we can replace those nukes with safer ones that don't have these problems then that is better what we currently have and while it may not be quite a step in the right direction, it isn't a step in the wrong direction either.
Java has no friends.
No, "All your base are belong to US".
Who are we trying to scare? Anyone and everyone.
Only thinking about today's threats is a shortsighted way to run your military, we've already paid a price for not thinking beyond the USSR. There isn't another superpower around today, but what about 20 years from now?
Having 6000 nuclear bombs does not mean you are going to use 6000 nuclear bombs. Its about survivability. The more bombs you have, and the more spread out they are, the less likely it is than an enemy can neutralize them all in a preemptive strike. You can destroy every inch of the continental US, but some submarine somewhere is going to make you pay.
Simply having nuclear weapons is not an effective deterrent in itself. Having many of them, in so many locations that you couldn't possibly destroy them all before being destroyed yourself, is a great deterrent. Mutually Assured Destruction, if you nuke the United States, you will be annihilated. It won't work on someone who is willing to sacrifice his entire country and all of his people (potentially Iran), but it'll work on everyone else.
Suggested tag: hypocrisy
Suggested misspelling doubling as political commentary on the US government: hypocracy
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Add to that that the US was the only nuclear armed nation that didn't have bomb manufacturing capacity in a good while. I think the previous factory was shut down due to contamination issues, and I think the LANL security fiasco hindered it as well.
I would prefer no nuclear weapons, but unfortunately, the nuclear genie is out of the bottle, I don't see any practical way out. A total global disarmament just doesn't seem likely, and is possibly hopelessly idealistic. I think history shows too many times that those without a strategic deterrence are the conquerred ones, and at times, they are are ones that get massacred.
Nuclear disarmament is like that scene in that Van Dam movie.. where they both have a gun pointed at the other's head. You'd have to be a fucking idiot to put your gun down first.
In the global power economy, who would you rather be:
a) The USA with 6,000 supernukes
b) North Korea with 20 maybenukes
c) Iran with an "energy program" that "might" be capable of producing deployable nuclear munitions
If you ask, "who the fuck cares, when one nuke is all it takes?" then you're not getting it. All the world knows that one nuke is all it takes, and at least for the time being, nobody in the world wants to fire that nuke for fear of MAD. Not even in the middle east, not even Kim Jong or his cousin Menta Li. And so it devolves into a dick-measuring contest, as these things tend to do. And so the United States wants to show it has the biggest dick[1], as it tends to want.
[1] There is a Bush joke here that I will abstain from making.
Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
For another, the US maintains its stockpiles of nuclear weapons solely to serve as a deterrent against other nations, while Iran's leadership has publicly and repeatedly declared that Israel should not exist as a state and has funded terrorist acts in order to remove it - it may very well use nuclear weapons in a first-strike effort against Israel, and even the threat of this occurring destabilizes the Middle East further than it already is.
I think that you are exaggerating the differences. Another view is that Isreal and Iran are locked in a regional power struggle. Isreal has a very capable nuclear capability (uses submarines) so a first strike against Isreal is impractical. Isreal would love to see Iran gone as would the US. Their constituency is a little more sophisticated and hence their rhetoric is more refined. But the underlying message is the same.
Also, for months there has been talk in the US of "bunker busting" nukes to be used against Iran's facilities, and knowing this the administration states that "All options" are on the table. So do not think that the stockpiles are simply a "benign" deterrent against attack on the US. This was clearly a provocation. Like the "we'll play poker with you if you show us your cards" deal Ms. Rice offered reciently. Personally, I think that this is meant to isolate Iran and solidify European/US resolve for war down the road.
Iran is a lothesome regime, but the US and Isreal are not the exactly benign innocent lamb-kittens.
Cheers,
-b
If you approached the situation from a non-American point of view, most of the issues you raise with Iran could be applied to the US equally, and with more historical evidence rather than mere conjecture.
The most significant real issue is stability, but we've already had the collapse of the Soviet Union, which had more nuclear weapons than Iran could build in two centuries. So the horse is several leagues from that particular barn, though I agree it's in the world's best interests to keep as few nuclear horses from running around as possible.
But at the end of the day, Iran would be crazy NOT to develop nuclear weapons, assuming they look after their own best interests. An American policy that doesn't recognize this and try to overcome it is doomed to failure -- we need a HUGE carrot or a gigantic stick to stop them, and we don't seem willing to do the former or capable (for several more years) of the latter.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
It's funny(strange) that the two things that propel innovation in their fields are weapons and pornography.
SNAFU
Dunno if you were replying to the wrong person, or misinterpreted what I said, but reread my post.
There is no question that the US is stable (as is China, and the USSR back in the day). Nor is there any question that Iran is a dangerous theocracy. Under no circumstances am I defending Iran, or attacking the US.
However, the US has already acted with military force in the middle east, on the pretext of preventing a dictator from aquiring weapons of mass destruction. Moreover, America considers Iran to be its enemy, both geopolitically and ideologically.
Given those two facts, why would Iran give up its nuclear program? Even if the country was run by secular moderates, they'd have no logical reason to get rid of their nukes, and every reason to want to keep them as insurance. The fact that the people in power there are neither logical nor moderate just makes it even harder to convince them. Even a treaty assuring the Iranians that they will not be invaded is not enough - treaties are just words on paper, whereas nukes are a tangible and frightingly effective deterrant.
Like I said, I'm not defending them, only their logic.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
Fusion bombs can be clean. The great misconception is that they are always clean, or even that they are desired to be clean by the military. Take a fusion bomb and wrap it with Uranium-238--under these conditions, this so-called "depleted" Uranium suddenly becomes very fissile indeed, and the resulting explosion will be many times bigger. As an added bonus, extremely intense neutron radiation is produced, enough to instantly kill anyone lucky enough to survive the blast (even those in fallout shelters, unless their shelters have many feet of lead shielding or buried very deeply underground) and generate amounts of fallout.
But it gets better. Instead of U-238, you can surround the fusion stage with "salt", a non-radioactive isotope that is transmuted into a highly radioactive isotope from the resulting neutron bombardment. The most infamous candidate is Cobalt-59. In a fission-fusion-fission bomb with the last "fission" stage omitted and a Cobalt-59 jacket substituted, the neutron flux will turn most of it into Cobalt-60 and the blast will scatter it across the land. Cobalt-60 is very unique, in that it puts out enough gamma rays to be very lethal (as in you *will* die if exposed to it for longer than a month or so. Not die as in die of cancer 20 years from now--you'll succumb to radiation poisoning), yet it has a relatively long half-life--around five years.
In another thread someone joked that nuclear weapons were passe--that we should be moving on to antimatter or something. Trust me, nuclear is quite scary enough. Depending on the wind conditions, a single bomb could quite literally destroy all life on the east coast of the USA. Make no mistake about it, if we really wanted to we could build enough Cobalt bombs to destroy all life on the planet. We take comfort in the fact that we're not crazy enough to do something like that, but I am not entirely convinced that Iran is similarly sane. MAD (Mutually Assured Distruction) worked against the relatively rational, aetheistic Soviets... but now we're up against cultures and ideologies that glorify martyrdom and kamikaze attacks to a ridiculous degree. I'm really not sure what's going to happen, but I feel most people in this country have become far to complacent, far too comfortable with the idea of nuclear weapons that everyone has but no one uses.
Let me hasten to say that on the other end of the spectrum are the retards who become hysterical every time the word "radiation" or "nuclear" is mentioned (fun fact--a single coal power plant pumps more radioactive particles into our atmosphere and water supply in a year than the three mile island accident), but we shouldn't forget that in the wrong hands, these weapons have very real potential as doomsday devices.
None of those wars involved an invaded country possessing nukes of their own. Korea couldn't threaten the US with nukes, nor could Vietnam. Afghanistan couldn't nuke the USSR. In each case the country on whose soil the war was fought wasn't a nuclear power.
And realistically, those are examples of war-by-proxy; minor conflicts fought between two major powers by way of of a third party government. The US and the USSR didn't fight each other directly, and the reason is nuclear deterrance.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
The nuclear stockpile in the United States needs to be reduced for a whole other reason than "it's old". It needs to be reduced because there's not a single nuclear threat to the United States today that isn't kept in check by every other nation in the world, or that wouldn't be kept in check with maybe a dozen nukes, versus the number of ICBM's currently stockpiled in the USA. You can't use nukes in a war on terror (unless you're a complete idiot and decided to blow away every country that "could" harbour terrorists), and most nuclear-capable nations are either friendly or so new into the "nuclear community" that it really doesn't matter, since they don't have the capability to actually deliver the payload. The only way it could possibly happen is through black-market sales of some sort, and even then, the USA nuclear stockpile doesn't exactly deter a terrorist organization.
The United States should be more focused on fighting 'conventional' (specifically urban and desert) warfare than nuclear warfare. The fact that there is currently no superpower poised to take over the world makes these relics of the Cold War era obsolete both in technology and in practice. They simply aren't needed. If even half of the USA nuclear stockpile were to be dismantled tomorrow, there would still be more than enough deterrent to wipe out any prospective enemy that might arise in the foreseeable future. As it stands, America has the power to blow most all countries on the planet to kingdom come and have some left over for the Martians, too.
Nuclear weapons have their purpose, but to have so many is insane. Deterrence is fine; Hell, even tactical nuclear weapons are fine, but why so many? And why bother researching more into the subject? The only possible plus I can see to research into new nuclear weaponry is to reduce the amount of radioactivity left over from the blast (or to increase the rate at which it dissipates or decays). Aside from that, it's still just new technology to do the same thing.
I say that if keeping the stockpile is that important, then just dismantle the ones that are ready to fall apart, and upgrade/repair the newer ones. Saves a lot of time, effort, and money.
Screw the rules, I have green hair!
No thanks, I'll take "Amerikkkan Fachism" over the benevolence of Iran any day.
It's not an either/or proposition -- voting out the Amerikkkan fascists in November* doesn't mean that they'll be replaced by a bunch of Iranian mullahs.
* Difficult to do, I admit, when the Democrats respond exactly the same as the Republicans 98% of the time.
That would be idiotic. If an Iranian bomb went off in Tel Aviv or New York, they know they'd be toast within a week. The real world is not like a Tom Clancy novel.
For example, Iraq.
Nuke design's not physics, its COMP-SCI 'surety' !
,the nuke has multiple safety mechanisms in it :
Really.
A W87 warhead (our last and greatest warhead from 1987), is a bitch to open and reservice the tritium. That part should have been made a tad easier, but opening a warhead is MEANT to be a monumental puzzle. tritiums half life is short enough that the damned things are useless without recharge after 15 or so years.
In fact... to set off a nuke (w87) its mainly designed to mistrust rogue theft even if using really clever computer hackers.
If you DO MANAGE to get all three launching keys (15 digits total) (Class-F its called I believe) (one key is merely in-flight key, or vessel key)
it cannot be detonated by lightning, fire, or explosive shock, however it can disintegrate itself if casing compromised or tampering detected. The explosive used in the fission component of the bomb (fission-fusion design obviously) is a special newer type of explosive resistant to fire, and lightning, but before critical temperatures can be reached the bomb immolates itself to destroy most components, though the housing will rupture and the "enriched goodies" could be harvested and utilized in a new-from-scratch weapon
To detonate :
It needs to be spinning about its central axis at a specific range of RPMS to detonate.
It needs to be increasing barometric pressure to detonate (simulating descent trajectory).
It needs to sense a specific airspeed flowing past the w87 warhead.
It needs to armed (yield set, keys set, timers set) a certain amount of time to detonate.
Its casing monitor needs to not detect atmospheric oxygen within (evidence of tampering) though pure nitrogen used in drilling entry could thwart that single test.
It needs to not sense large amounts of magnetic "ferrous" material nearby (unconfirmed).
All circuitry boards (three or so, totally uncoupled) need to pass tamper checks of runtime code on firmware, and some other paltry stuff.
There are a few other clever sensors in it.
But nuke design of ultra high tech SDAMS (small micro nukes similar to w87, but with negligible fusion litium payload) is all about SURETY, not physics.
Physics was completed and reached state of the art in late 1980s.
Everything about SDAMS and generic multiple warhead ballistic W87 design is anout anti-computer hacking. ALL OF THE HARD STUFF is about how to make it impossible for even an expert from being able to hack one up and use it in a non-ballistic manner.
SDAMS are even more of a bitch as they are Abrams "tank shell" style weapons used for all manner of non ballistic purposes, including dam-busting, bunker busting, building demolition, etc.
SDAMS are slated for use in upcoming invasion of Iran to get at the enrichment centers that are all 600 feet underground (no daisy-cutter or modern MOAB can cause harm at 600 feet deep, only a SDAM or reduced yield w87.
But SDAMS have no axis spin to thwart, have no barometric pressure to thwart, have no restriction on detecting ferrous metal in environment, have no airspeed safety... in fact an SDAM has so few safety mechanisms, its practically a terrorist weapon in an of itself in my opinion. and of course it fits neatly inside a classy looking anodized metallic Zero-Halberton brief case.
The fed program want surety design... not physics design. They want DRM. DRM for nuke logic boards. And Even the xbox360 was hacked in a week.
I am shocked that the posts here do not realize this fact at the time I posted this.
Maybe because Iraq was invaded because it was suspsected of having WMD.
No, at this point it's eminently clear that Iraq was invaded because we knew they didn't have WMD's. If they'd had nukes (not sure if chemicals or biologicals would have stopped us, although they sure could have made things rough) we'd still be saber-rattling.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Actually, look at India and Pakistan. Nukes have worked really well as a deterrent.
Ever since both have gotten nukes, they've gotten close to war and just had to back off until the tempers cooled off because of MAD.
Now, they're working towards being friends instead of enemies.
1. Iran is full of religious zelots.
So is the USA.
2. Mamood Ahmadi-Najad (president of Iran) denies the holocust happend and threatend Israel to be "wiped off the map"
They just threatened. The USA actually attacked Iraq.
Most likely, it would be driven into a city with a small truck or van (along with leaded shielding around the unit).
Yes yes, I know. Sick humor and all. But a "nuclear car bomb" would be the practical method of delivery.
Life is not for the lazy.
Even if they could, they wouldn't. Blow up the dome of the rock, the second most holy site in Islaam? Not going to happen.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
possible prone to an attack that could detonate them.
Thats just not possible, not for any nuclear yield anyway. Its possible to destroy them and explode the high explosive charge and spread radioactive debris around but you just cannot set one off properly without a certain sequence of events with very precise timing and order.
And you missed out on some of the factual arguements presented.
The old bombs have a lifespan. That isn't doublespeak - it's FACT. New bombs will have to be built if we wish to keep them as a deterrant - and convincing politicians and generals that there is no need for such a deterrant is futile, so that's right out. The US no longer has bomb production capability, so the new bombs will need to be made in new factories. And they might as well update the elderly designs while they're at it, since there's no reason to build a new factory to build from bomb designes that are 20+ years old.
Nothing about this is illogical, or contrary to known facts.
The only way developing new bombs will lead to more bombs total if:
A) The new bombs are deployed before the old ones expire (unlikely)
Or
B) More new bombs are built than currently exist. This is expensive, and probably unecesarry, given that nukes aren't needed in massive numbers. A hundred might be enough of a deterrant.
What possible need do they have for doublespeak? The only possible point you might argue is that we shouldn't be building new bombs at all, and that we should give up the ones we have. Good luck convincing the rest of the world about that though.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
hey, let's outsource this project...
xD
Did you know that "FTW" ("for the win") is a direct translation of "Sieg Heil"?
Finally, the stability of the US government is much greater [fundforpeace.org] than that of Iran.,/p>
Interesting list, I notice all the states in the green (best) section of the list do NOT have nuclear weapons.
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." - Zapp Brannigan
To sum it up: what is good for the goose is not good for the gander.
...
Look at the first line: Sure, it sounds hypocritical, but
If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it is a duck. All the reasons you gave are valid. They are however just as valid for Iraq to have the bomb.
Don't forget that the US clearly stated that they would use A-bombs as a first strike method. Don't forget that the US invaded a country under false pretenses.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
If you wonder why Iran mistrusts the US, look up the US's role in the ouster of Mossadegh and the installation of the Shah. How would the US feel about a foreign country that had supported a coup to replace your elected president with a dictatorial monarch? (Not that there's much difference at the moment, but that's a different flame war).
You obviously dont know what the US did BEFORE 9/11 in Afghanistan & other places . [ Read - Taliban ]
Why does yahoo do this
The US is a nation that does not keep its dominance through diplomacy and exports, but instead by force.
Force is a very valid way of coercing nations' behavior. If the U.S. had no military, a rival nation could just march in. Or they could stockpile nukes in Cuba in launching range of our major cities and extort U.S. citizens.
It's important for the U.S. to have a military, and it's also important that other nations know we are willing to use it. Remember, there are no world police.
Negotiations don't really accomplish much if the nations have mutually exclusive interests. If we negotiate with Britain or Canada, it works out great because most of what we want is the same. But negotiating without a backing of force is useless against places like North Korea or Iran. There's no common ground.
Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
After 9/11, Pakistan freaked out and began to lock the locks on their nuclear arsenal. A year afterward, reports that Pakistan had been helping North Korea develop nuclear weapons comes out. In international speak this says, 'we are unstable (we have security concerns regarding our nuclear arsenal), we crave war (peaceful nations don't share nuclear secrets with countries that are technically still at war) and we still have not taken steps to prevent a nuclear exchange despite these serious concerns (they're fighting a grudge that has lasted for half a century, armed with nukes and bedding with known terrorist groups.)'
India is just as bad. Pakistan border both Afghanistan AND Iran, two of the most unfriendly nations currently (remember all those reports about Al Qaeda reportedly escaping into India through the mountains?), so India is paranoid of the radicals/terrorists/refugees that have recently come into Pakistan. If the reports about Pakistan helping North Korea develop nuclear weapons is true, this could set nuclear talks back DECADES. In international speak this says, 'we are paranoid of Pakistan launching a first strike/pre-emptive attack against us (Pakistan has fewer nukes so they would want to do this to minimize damage in a nuclear counter-attack), we believe Pakistan is socially and politically unstable due to recent events (U.S. invasion of Afghanistan) and we do not believe that the international community would come to our aid in a serious confrontation (the U.N. is still in a pissing match against the U.S. for invading Iraq, North Korea has everyone second-guessing their intelligence agencies to avoid another "Iraq has WMDs!" fiasco and Iran has everyone kicking the crap out of each other trying to figure out what to do without losing their precious oil/without military action/without having the U.S. go off on its own again).
The US has wanted to remove Iran's government ever since it came to power. Relationships have historically been bad, originally because the US supported the previous dictator, the Shah of Persia, over the popular and democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh. Iraq was not threatening to build WMDs, but this did not stop Bush.
I think I heard that the Bush administration planned devising a smaller nuclear bomb that could be used in the battlefield or for bunker busting. It is obvious, since there is no longer a nuclear-capable adversary (except North Korea, which is left alone just because of that).
Israel usually denies, but everybody knows they have extensive nuclear capability and that they can deliver it to Iran if they wanted. Attacking a nuclear power far stronger than you are, which is tightly allied to the major nuclear power on the planet with whom you don't have a good relationship to begin with is such a stupid thing not ever Ahmadinejad can possibly contemplate that. On the other hand, nukes have caused the longest period of peace in Europe in centuries, the cold war. If anything, nukes have a stabilising effect as they effectively make it impossible to wage a war in which a side gains something.
No doubt about that, but an invasion did not help in Iraq. People were killed before, now they are still killed—only now it's more like random violence. In addition, the country became a gigantic terrorist training ground, so if peace were to come to Iraq we would have a few thousands terrorists on the loose. Want to do it over in Iran?
Sure. But the same can be said about North Korea and especially Pakistan, home to most Talibans. Pakistan is also a dictatorship, but an "aligned" one. In your source about state instability, Iran is 53rd, Pakistan is 9th. If you have to be seriously worried about terrorists getting nukes, that's the most likely place to look at.
If it costs less I find it more likely that the government will keep funding constant and just have more warheads. The weapon industry will surely lobby not to cut into their profits, and they have influence. "You don't want to give the terrorists a sign of weakness by reducing our military expenditure, do you?"
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
Most US warheads are in the 100kT to 500kT range. We have a few megaton weapons, but it was the Soviets who relied on raw output because their weapons were less accurate. The only thing megaton about our nukes is the fact that we have ICBMs that could, in theory, drop multiple warheads which would total a few megatons, but none of those ICBMs was supposed to have more than one or two warheads on a single target. We certainly do have low yield bombs for dropping in low(er) intensity situations. Remember, it was the US' policy during the Cold War that any invasion of Western Europe would automatically be met with nuclear weapons, due to the crushing superiority that the Warsaw Pact forces had in numbers and equipment. They needed weapons that they could drop that wouldn't (immediately) kill their own troops too. The only thing people actually use megaton weapons for is for bunker/silo busting. A hundred or two kT is more than enough kill millions, if dropped in the right place.
"There is no comparable threat to Iran (yeah, you might say the US, but the only thing Iran has to worry about from the US is caused directly by their nuclear weapon ambitions in the first place)."
Yeah, right. Tell that to Saddam Hussein.
I'm not going to bother digging out the links, but take a few minutes to google "petrodollar" and "petroeuro" and read up on it. Notice what happens to countries that consider selling oil for something other than dollars. Iraq--invasion on trumped up charges. Venezuela--attempted coup with US backing. Iran?
"the US maintains its stockpiles of nuclear weapons solely to serve as a deterrent against other nations, while Iran's leadership has publicly and repeatedly declared that Israel should not exist as a state and has funded terrorist acts in order to remove it - it may very well use nuclear weapons in a first-strike effort against Israel [...]"
Oh, "we've got that bomb and that is good 'cause we love peace and motherhood?"
Iran's Ayatollah Khameini has explicitly stated that using nuclear weapons is against Islamic rules. Believe him or not, but remember that the US has explicitly stated that "all options are on the table" and has not explicitly ruled out a nuclear first strike.
Well, one good thing, though. The United States of America has never funded terrorists. We fund "freedom fighters." Big difference.
"And for a third, Iran's government maintains a stranglehold over its people - the people are fairly Westernized as the region goes, and they are interested in legitimate democracy. [...] Finally, the stability of the US government is much greater than that of Iran. The chances of Iran's government collapsing at some point in the future, relegating their nuclear weapons to whoever can get their hands on them first, are significant."
Okay, okay. Now I'm a bit confused.
The reason the current leaders of Iran are in power is because of their stranglehold over their citizens. If it were up to their citizens, they'd throw the bums out and have a legitimate democracy. So, in other words, the biggest threat to "stability" in Iran is...the forces of democracy? And these people might get ahold of nuclear weapons?
When the US stops making the world a worse place to live in for all non-US citizens, we'll stop criticizing your politics.
And tell me, how exactly would you know what other countries' citizens are focused on ? I assume you visited each and every one of those countries ? Or at least have access to their mainstream media ? You do speak other languages, right ?
What the US should be focused on internally is educating its people. Stop this celebration of stupidity. You don't need a president you would like to have a beer with, you need a president who can run the @#!? country !
Teach people that issues are almost never black and white.
Teach them that being criticial on human rights abuses by the US does NOT mean you can't also be critical on human rights abuses by other countries.
But hey, making "France surrenders" jokes is much more fun, right ?
No. They just don't want us to turn them into a bunch of Devout Christians -- or, worse yet, a bunch of dead Muslims.
The US has already forced a regime change in Iran in the early '60s -- It was fear of a repeat of that that led to the hostage taking in 1979. The US responded by trashing the political fortunes of every moderate (then) alive within Iran. Since then the US has been making noises about overthrowing their government (again).
Fears of the US trying again have intensified since Bush invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and started sabre-rattling at Iraq's neighbours.
It's a bit disappointing, but not a complete shock that Iran decided to push for a nuclear option. The US reneging on it's own non-proliferation responsibilities doesn't really help them (or any body else) feel safe about US intentions in the future.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
There is not only the choice between safe and non-safe nukes. There is also the choice of no nukes at all. Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad actually pledged that he would be happy to give up Iran's nuclear ambitions if there was a genuine commitment of all nations with nuclear weapons to disarm. Now, this is a dishonest offer, because he knows that it is not going to happen. But what better way to, literally and figuratively, disarm Iran than taking him up on it? What is the use of nuclear weapons in this world? Who are you going to nuke? "The terrorists"?
If you look at the comments in this thread, you will find that America has no moral leadership anymore whatsoever. It's gone. Note that this is an America-based forum. Don't even try to suggest any kind of moral leadership of the United States in a European context. You will quickly hear: Iraq civil war. Abu Ghraib. Secret CIA prisons. Guantanomo. Police state. Religious fanaticism. Violation of international treaties. And so on, and so forth. What's the last moral defense against an undeniably terrible regime like Iran or the PRC? Democracy? Bullshit. Hardly anybody outside the US takes this so-called democracy seriously anymore. We are talking about an electoral system which tolerates the candidate in an election running the election, legally. Third world countries have more refined democratic systems than the US.
It's time to stop using false dichotomies and poorly constructed slippery slope arguments. "We can have safe nuclear bombs, or unsafe ones!" "We can invade countries, or let terrorists kill us!" "If we let the evil homosexuals marry, goats and chickens will be next!" "We must scare teenagers so they won't have sex and get pregnant!" "We must lock up 2 million people so there won't be criminals in the streets!" What scares me the most is that there are a lot of people who actually believe that.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
The last serious redesign of the atomic bomb produced the fusion bomb, which gave off less radiation for the same bang.
Ummm, no. A fusion bomb is called a staged thermonuclear weapon. It uses a plutonium trigger to ignite a fusion reaction. The yield of the weapon is adjusted by manipulating the amount of deuterium injected into the weapons core milliseconds before the trigger is set off. It is in reality a fission bomb augmented with fusible hydrogen.
Fission bombs typically yield in the kilo-ton range. They produce fallout of radioactive decay products (radioactive strontium, iodine, etc) and unspent plutonium. They also create what is known as an electro-magnetic pulse which is deadly to computers and electronics.
H-bombs are every bit as dirty as fission bombs. They yield in the mega-ton range. As they are souped-up fission bombs, they have similar fall-out. As the fusion reaction is much more energetic than a fission reaction, there are even worse effects. If the H-bomb hits the ground, ordinary materials- dirt, bricks, motor, etc- is irradiated causing even more problems. The gamma-flash of an h-bomb will kill any exposed persons for a radius of many miles. The optical flash will blind anyone looking in its direction for 10s of miles. EMP effects from H-bombs are equally impressive creating massive power, electronic and computer disruptions.
The biggest h-bomb ever set off was ~50 megatons by the Russians on a small island off Kamchatka. That particular bomb could theoretically yield as much as 100 megatons. They toned it down for testing purposes.
There was a big difference in the design philosophy between nukes of the US and USSR. American missile technology was much more precise than the Soviets with the early ICBMs so the US made smaller, cleaner warheads. The Soviets on the other hand designed their nukes for the biggest possible bang. Although Soviet missile accuracy improved in the late 70s and 80s, their warheads were essentially the same- big, honking H-bombs.
Another type of nuke was designed in the 70s called a neutron warhead. It was designed not for its explosive potential but the ability to cause a deadly pulse of radiation which would kill all humans (I've always wanted to work that into a conversation somehow.) who aren't in hardened shelters. This is a very "clean" but ghoulish weapon designed in anticipation of a super-power conflict in Europe. [Since Europeans were tired of being bombed flat, I suppose being zapped like a frog in a microwave was an easier sell.]
As an old Cold Warrior era fossil, I hate nukes. They suck in every conceivable way. They are NOT a warrior's weapon. They are weapons of indiscriminate murder killing warrior and innocent alike. Their cost is obscene considering all the other uses that money could be put too.
IMHO there is no such thing as a good nuke, only the ones necessary to make retaliation to an attack suicidal.
It seems reasonable that another redesign would try to produce more efficient fusion bombs
The nukes that are being considered are small: 20-60 kilotons. NOT fusion weapons. They are essentially bunker busters on steroids.
which is only a good thing.
I don't think it's a good thing at all. Creating a small, battlefield nuke makes using one more likely.
Nukes aren't battlefield weapons. They are political weapons. Using one could start a chain reaction that no one could possibly predict.
Is that a SCSI connector or are you just glad to see me?
A modern thermonuclear weapon is a multistage device. Briefly, here's how one works.
There are essentially two nuclear bombs within a thermonuclear weapon. There is a fission bomb and a fusion bomb. The fission bomb is needed to detonate the fusion part.
The fission part, at one end of the bomb casing, consists of an initiator (neutron generator), a sphere of fissile material (plutonium), and a neutron reflector (IIRC, natural uranium tamper) all wrapped in a spherical set of explosive lenses. The entire fission device is a sphere. The fusion part is behind a radiation shield, and is cylindrical. Coming through this shield is an enriched uranium "spark plug" that goes from the fission bomb and up the centre of the cylinder of fusion fuel. The fusion fuel is a solid fuel - lithium deuteride.
Around this cylinder of fusion fuel is a natural uranium tamper. Then there is a layer of polystrene, and the bomb casing. So essentially you have a cylinder that consists of bomb casing, polystyrene, natural uranium tamper, lithium deuteride and the highly enriched uranium 'spark plug'.
The sequence of events in detonation is that the explosive lenses are detonated around the fission first stage. This causes the contents of the spherical fission stage to implode - increasing the density of the fission bomb. When it is assembled into a critical mass, the initiator is fired, which fires neutrons into this highly compressed mass of plutonium. It starts to fission. The goal of the design is to keep this mass assembled for as long as possible - the longer you can keep the critical mass assemble before the nuclear reaction blows it apart, the better the efficiency.
The fission bomb is now emitting a significant amount of prompt radiation. Most of this won't reach the fusion part just yet because of the radiation shield. However, X-rays are now vaporizing the polystyrene wrapping the cylinder of fusion fuel. This enormously compresses the tamper, the lithium deuteride and the spark plug into a tiny fraction of its original volume. At the same time, the spark plug starts fissioning. Basically, a bomb the size of the Nagasaki bomb is being used to crush this cylinder of fusion fuel. The fusion reaction starts taking place. Again, the bomb is designed to keep all this stuff assembled for long enough that a significant fusion reaction can occur - and this time is measured in tens of nanoseconds. Finally, the fusion reaction's energy starts the natural uranium tamper fissioning - the third stage - adding yet more power to the explosion.
All this has to be exquisitely timed or you just spread some radioactive material around rather than start a nuclear reaction. If one of the explosive lenses in the fission device explodes a couple of nanoseconds late, the bomb won't go off.
Eventually (eventually, as I said, is measured in nanoseconds) the energy liberated starts to disassemble the bomb, and the reaction completes. By the time the bomb casing has started to break apart, the nuclear reaction has finished.
As you can see, there are several stages to this reaction. Any fault in the bomb will mean it either won't detonate at all or will "fizzle" (in this instance, a "fizzle" means only enough energy to blow up, say, Long Island). Various components in the bomb degrade - the electronics, the explosives and the plastics. If any degrade sufficiently it's likely the bomb simply won't go off at all.
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If you honestly believe that there is an army of Muslims in the Arab world sitting in a dark room mutting "I hate those Americans, they're so damn.... FREE! I'll kill them for being so free!" then you need to take a good hard look inside your head and clear out the thoughts that have been proscribed for you by the media.
The Arab world (and indeed most of the third world including Africa, Indochina and South America) hate the Western powers not because they are democratic, but because they are exploitative fascists. The west is always pulling stunts like this which is why there are so many "terrorists" out there trying to bring the west down. The moment the US stops trying to act like a global dictator the sooner crazy lunatics will stop flying planes into US buildings.
Get a grip. And get rid of that huge gas guzzling 4x4 you use to haul your collection of shotguns around in.
I hate printers.
To be perfectly clear, they didn't even go so far as to threaten to "wipe Israel off the map." No such idiom even exists in Persian. He did say he hoped its regime would collapse.
One should really blame poor translation and propagandists on that line.
No, at this point it's eminently clear that Iraq was invaded because we knew they didn't have WMD's. If they'd had nukes (not sure if chemicals or biologicals would have stopped us, although they sure could have made things rough) we'd still be saber-rattling.
If that's the case, why isn't Canada a state yet?
We don't have nukes.
We have a shitload of oil
We have less of a military than Granada, albiet worse weather, so an invasion wouldn't be costly
And you'd finally be able to field a half-decent hockey team
The difference between Iran wanting to build a new nuclear weapon and the US wanting to build a new nuclear weapon is vastly significant in my opinion. I think it's light years away from a, "do what we say, not what we do" situation. The US *currently* possess a nuclear weapons capability, and it has for over half a century, while Iran -- we hope -- doesn't yet have the means to produce a destructive nuclear device.
At this point, any new nuclear weapons program in the US will do little more than refine existing US nuclear capabilities. It likely won't increase the number of nuclear weapons in the US stockpile, nor will it increase the yield of the average nuclear weapon. The program seems geared towards producing a new mainstay weapon for the US arsenal that's easier to maintain than what the US has right now.
The DOE has a brief document explaining why the US needs a new nuclear weapon. Again, the prime reason behind the initiative seems to be a maintenance issue, not a military need. Considering that the US nuclear weapons program, in its heyday, produced gems like the "Atomic Annie" mobile artillery piece, as well as the man-portable Davy Crockett nuclear rifle, the current initiative seems mild in comparison. I think it's a stretch to presume that the Iranians should get any moral satisfaction, or a break in the on-going negotiations, simply because US officials see a need to modernize the nation's current Cold War-era nuclear weapons stockpile.
One should really blame poor translation and propagandists on that line.
Actually, the conclusion of Brommer, after looking at translation issues, is that he very much did say so, but that he didn't go as far as to declare war.
I don't make fun of rednecks to feel better about myself (I feel fine, thank you, I don't need to measure my self-worth against anyone else), I make fun of them because they deserve to be made fun of. That whole "culture" is about being proud of being an ignorant fool. It's about preferring "likable" over "competent". It's when being perceived as a good guy by others (going to church, putting flags everywhere, ...) becomes more important than actually being a good guy. This behaviour is certainly not exclusive to Americans, it's just that's it's so incredibly obvious in their case.
You're right that there are a lot of people around the world who like the US, but there are not a lot of people who like how the US behaves itself in the world.
You're not American, yet you claim that the average citizen in your country is more concerned about criticizing the US than about their own issues ? Where do you live ?
This behaviour is certainly not exclusive to Americans, it's just that's it's so incredibly obvious in their case.
I think it is not so much that it is more obvious, particularly (I can't think of the last time any nation didn't act in a manner that didn't stink to high heaven of unenlightened self-interest, nor can I think of any people or nation who hasn't had similar lapses of taste or sense as Redneck [tm] Americans). I think rather it is problematic because it matters more. Simply, when the next-door neighbor is a jackass, it isn't that big a deal...unless he's got fistfuls of dollars and 'guns, lots of guns'. Similarly, if Liechtenstein were as assholey as the US, nobody would particularly care.
This, incidentally, is why it is perfectly reasonable for people who are not Americans (disclaimer, I am an American) to take a great interest in, and criticize, US policy: it affects their lives, sometimes in ways more profound than the actions of their own governments (Think, in particular, Columbia, though there are other obvious examples). I do not think it appropriate to deny the legitimacy of the complaints of people who are aggreived by the actions of a neighbor.
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
1. Breakdown of Iran's Religions:
Shi'a Muslim 89%, Sunni Muslim 9%, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i 2%
2. Breakdown of USA's Religions:
Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)
3. I would hardly say that the replacment of Iraq's then-current government and military could be considered wiping the country off the map. In contrast, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's made statements that Israel is a stain in the Islamic world and should be wiped off the map. Mahmoud was also a known torturer during his days with the OSU. The last time I checked, the most torturous thing Bush did was share his bad grammar with the world.
I can't believe this was modded insightful.
d ing.htm for the numbers in 2004. US spending has only increased since then.)
Sure, the states need a military to defend itself from 'rival nations marching in'. However, does the US expect half the world to come marching in? Because last I checked, the US military budget is half of the annual spendings on defense worldwide. Yes, that's right folks, the US spends half of all the money spent on defense. Also, 80% of the increase in military spending was due to the US last year. ( see for instance http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spen
I hate to break the news to you, but the US does not have a defensive army. You have a mostly offensive army which is basically strong enough to take on the rest of the world.
"Remember, there are no world police."
Yes there is. It's the states. Although police implies a force controlled by some agreed upon laws, and without it's own interests. This is not the case. The police here is governend by _your_ laws, and guided by _your_ interests, with a guiding principle of fear, feeded by _your_ government because some fscking Saudi Arab made up some so-called global terrorist group which is _absolutely_ no threat to the imperialist empire the states have become.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
In a phrase, entangling alliances. Sure, you may have a military made up of mounties and pop-guns, but England doesn't, nor the rest of NATO, and one NATO member invading another on any pretext would begin the quickest and most devastating political destabilization in world history.
And of course there's the fact that you kicked our ass the last time we invaded.
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
He got the date wrong. Look it up if you want. Operation Ajax, 1953. It's not exactly a secret or anything, however they don't teach it in school and I don't think the movie is out yet. This is one of the cornerstones of why some islamists have issues with the USA.
And it wasn't a popular revolution. Popular revolutions by definition do not involve outside funding and state-sponsored terrorist campaigns.
The overthrowing of a democratically elected government in 1953 Iran was the first of MANY such operations. The US has overthrown more democracies that it has "created". It's all about the magical word..."socialist". Elect one of them and you are Fuxored.
Threatening to build nuclear weapons in 5 years isn't a normal reaction from those who are afraid of an imminent threat.
Iran is making no such threat. We are the ones talking of them building nukes in five years, not them.
So it looks like another war might be neccesary after all. You figured they'd have learned from Iraq's example, but common sense seems to be in short supply in the middle east.
another? Which previous war was also "neccesary". This I can't wait to hear...
Common sense? You clearly haven't been following the news. Numerous leaked memos and whistle-blowers have come forward to prove that the Iraq invasion was going to proceed regardless of any diplomacy. Any "diplomacy" you saw was to placate YOU and the international community. The PNAC have been planing that one since 1997. These plans involve using Iraq as a gateway to the middle east. Irans recent nuclear sabre-rattling has nothing to do with the fact that the PNAC has their sights on them. They've had their crosshairs aimed for several years, they are just looking for a justification to do it now.
Often I wonder how great nations allow bad things to happen. How populations can turn a blind eye to what is going on in their name. Your ignorance has helped me understand this problem greatly. Thank you, thank you very much.
Excuse me if I'm cynical, but couldnt this just be another way of keeping the bomb-builders employed and busy? Isnt there something more useful they could be doing, like fusion research?
What's the UN supposed to be then?
Ever hear of a dirty cop?
... for you US taxpayers that your taxmoney is being used on initiatives started by the influence of weapon industry lobbyists instead of being used for your own good.
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Under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, the US is required to ~"pursue plans to reduce and liquidate their stockpiles"
Now I know this is not likely to happen, but it does gall me to see the US (And the UK for that matter) ignoring their treaty obligations, and then getting righteous over how Iran may be failing it's Non-Proliferation duties.
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The US still has nukes because the US is likely to need them in the future as a deterrent. Europe has NOT picked up the mantel of world leadership that the US held since after World War II. It was the US has badgered Europe into going into Korea and Serbia. The US is the titan the plops down on occasion trying to fix the worlds wrongs. Now, I am not going to argue that every time the US juggernaut stomps its foot it is doing right. I am arguing that no one else has bothered to do so. There IS a need in this world for a nation or group of nations that is willing to show up around the world with guns to stop unprovoked assaults, such as in Korea, or genocides, such as in Serbia.
Answer me this. If China was to launch an assault on Taiwan tomorrow, would Europe run to the defense of a fellow democracy? Of course not. The only friend Taiwan could expect to come to its aid would be the big evil US. The US would park a battle fleet off the coat of Taiwan, drop a few thousand marines on the shore, and start sinking anything that tried to cross the channel despite the fact that it would be rumbling with the most populace nation in the world off of its own coast.
Europe has merrily thrown the defense of democracies to the wind and has actually tried to sell China weapons for which it could use to attack Taiwan despite pleading from the US not to. Europe has not entered into any sort of defense pact to defend Taiwan as the US has. Europe has put their economic prosperity and safety above defending fellow democracies.
When Europe can unite and show a willingness to strap on their boots and go kick some ass for democracy, I would be more then happy to see the US put down its arms and call it a centaury. I don't see that happening. The only time Europe comes out guns blazing is when it has to do with one of their former colonies or the US is leading the charge and carrying over half of the load. As long as the US is the only nation swinging its weight, you can expect the US to have a hefty supply of nukes to keep the people it pisses off at bay.
Personally, I think that the South Park guys sum up the argument for the good that the US provides to the world pretty eloquently in Team America, World's Police.
We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Film Actors Guild are pussies. And Kim Jong Il is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!
It's not because it matters more, it's because it's become a world-religion almost. You get french soldiers firing into crowds in Africa and killing dozens, and there's barely a peep about it even in France, let alone in the world media. Yet you get a couple marines allegedly murdering 15 civilians in Iraq (I say alegedly because, even though it seems likely to be true, it hasn't been proven yet), and the whole world is screaming about it.
Now you tell me how that "matters more". It has nothing to do with which action is more important, or more harmful. People around the world simply take pleasure in ragging on the Americans. It's like the way Americans used to talk about blacks back in the 50's. "Damn n***rs causing all our problems. It's their fault wer don't have jobs. Uneducated savages. They keep murdering people. Criminals.".
Every culture, every country, needs someone to demonize. Most of the world has picked the USA to fill that role. The only unusual thing here is that most Americans have picked their own government to play that role for them.
Just because the UN has lofty goals, doesn't mean it is an effective institution. Lets not forget that China was sitting with veto powers in the Security Council during the Tiananmen Square massacre. The UN is a nice idea, but it is structured to avoid offending anyone, so when anything serious happens, the UN sits on it's hands until it's all over.
Yeah, getting little things like "facts" wrong tends to be a common theme amongst those who take pleasure in blaming the US for everything.
Incorrectly stating a date is not "facts", it's details. When it happened is not relevant to this debate. But I'm not defending someone elses post, nor should it be valid critism of the central point here.
The UK came up with the plan and pursued it, the US agreed to assist. So why, pray tell, is the US the country being blamed?
Who said the UK wasn't to blame? It was the UKs idea but "agreed to assist" grossly downplays the USA's involvement. The CIA did most of the work, managed by Americans.
Ofcourse, the revisionist historians who see this as some blatant power-grab, or the removal of a "democratic" regime for political purposes, all fail to acknowledge the realities of that time period.
How much hypocracy can you get in one sentance? You refer to the time period (start of the cold war); how could this be anything other than a "power grab"? It's a power grab if the soviets take the country and it's exactly the same when you do it. The entire cold war was one big power grab; the later invention of the ICBM changed all that of course. Back then, power was territory. Turkey, Afganistan, Cuba, they all had conflicts due to these cold war power grabs. They also had short-range missles stationed on them, pointing at the enemy. But hey, the US had the Iranian peoples best interest in mind all along, right?
Back then Global Communism under a totalitarian USSR was much more threatening and terrifying than the prospect of a Global Islamist Caliphate is today.
Bull. This is before the legacy of Stalin. Prior to that asshat, there was no reason to fear Communism. The fact that you capitalise "Global Communism" suggests that you disagree with me on this for ideological reasons. If Stalin wanted to promote Communism, he'd have been better off never being born!
By the way, there is no threat of a "Global Islamist Caliphate". Never was. All we have here is a bunch of people screaming "get out of my country" then after 40 years of that some fly some planes into some buildings. They have no desire to take over the world. They don't want the whole world to be islamic (well, a couple do, but we have our own Christian equivalents in Fallwell etc). Their goals are clear and stated every other month. Get out of the middle east. Stop dicking around with their goverments. Stop supporting repressive brutal dictatorships. Never once have I seen Al Qaida say "global islam" or anything along those lines.
A revolution in an Iran increasingly leaning towards communism (and sharing a border with the USSR) was a logical way to avoid more intense warfare later on. And, as history shows, NATO nations won the Cold War without having to fight much.
Complete conjecture. Would Iran being communist be any worse than the current state of affairs? Without a time machine we cannot answer that. I'd argue that the cold war turning into real war was always unlikely, due to the M.A.D. brought about by the nukes. The 1953 revolution in Iran is largely responsible for the anti-US feeling over there. It could be argued that the majority of terror has roots in this event.
As for the rest of your nonsense, the time for diplomacy in Iraq came and passed in the 1990's. Sadam survived one war, years of inspections and negotiations, followed by years of sanctions. Negotiating any more at that point was sheer lunacy.
No, thinking that invading was an improvement was lunacy. I'll argree that the situation was pretty dire over there with Saddam in charge. But I'd like to see anyone make a convincing argument that the current situation is better. Or that it will be better in five years. You do realise that we are now there forever? We have built 15 or so permament bases. Most of the US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia (long term deterent stationing) have been moved to Iraq. And the his
It's an oversimplification, but it's also true in every clause.
Ok - I'll play.
So by "Nation A", you would mean America, United Kingdom, France, China, India, Pakistan, probably Israel, and possibly North Korea.
And by "Nation B", you would mean Saudi Arabia, Norway, Iran, Venuzuela, UAE, Kuwait, Nigeria, Mexico.
Russia doesn't fit into either (it's a large oil exporter and has nukes).
I think you might have oversimplified this to a point where it loses all validity.
No, but it will most likely mean they will be replaced by politicians who are touchy feely and believe we shouldnt' do anything to stand up to militant Islam. Well, unless you think lobbing cruise missles into baby food factories is something.
Prof. Farnsworth - "Oh a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!"
So is the USA.
When was the last time a US citizen was put to death for practicing the wrong religion? Your tendency toward relativism and moral equivalence have clouded your judgement.
They just threatened. The USA actually attacked Iraq.
Do you believe the US is not trying to rebuild Iraq and institute stable, lawful government in Iraq? Do you contend that the US is systematically plundering that country? Ahmadinejad's comments are pure malice, the fantasy of a homicidal madman who wants to kill Jews because they are Jews. If I were a Jew I would take the threat deadly seriously. Why Persian's are so obscessed by an Arab/Jewish conflict is hard to say. My guess is it distracts from the utter failure and depravity of Iran's mullahcracy.
an ill wind that blows no good
I'd take touchy-feely over punchy-bomby any day.
Last post!
Glad to see it. Besides the obvious welfare-for-smart-people angle, it will bolster the credibility of American deterrence. There's still China out there, and they might think they could win a nuclear war over Taiwan someday. Not to mention a Russia that could become resurgent and continue down the path of despotism.
The genie cannot be confined back in its bottle, therefore if there's going to be nukes, America should have the most and the best.
lol, very true! When it comes to messing up the middle east, you guys learned from the best! (us)
If that's the way you see it, you have SERIOUSLY misunderstood geo-politics in the 20th century my friend. The US hasn't been an expansionist nation in centuries.
It depends on how you define expansionist. For the soviets it was making the USSR itself bigger. For the west it was establishing "democratic" client states. Most of the wests client states were essentially puppet regimes, with malable leadership often helped to power by ourselves.
It really comes down to this; you get the USSR and NATO fighting over places like Afganistan, Sudan, Turkey etc all for ultimate strategic gain. The semantics were different but it's the same end-goal. With Communism, you want state-managed resources, so you need a central coverment. Client states under the west can operate autonomously, but get support in various other guises such as trade, military deployments (great deterant to invaders) and so on.
Otherwise we'd now have the United Capitalist Federation of America, with colonies spread all over the globe.
Which is essentially what we have. There are numerous states left over from the cold war where they aren't exactly colonies but go beyond simple allies. It's like the Cuban revolution; prior to that Cuba was a US client state. That's about as much of a "Capitalist Federation" as you would get, but in many ways its the same thing. We're now 50 years on and many of these client states have changed drastically, so it's hard to think of specific examples.
Could have made the same argument in Bosnia after 3 years. Or South Korea. Or Germany for that matter. Stop getting your panties in a bunch; these things take time.
I'm not so sure...Iraq is quite different. Bosnia at least was part of a real country (AFAIK). Iraq on the other hand is an artificial country whose borders were drawn up while the ignoring centuries-old conflicts that shaped Persia. I'm not convinced that it could ever work as a country without someone like Saddam at the helm. Some sort of civil dispute leading to a Bosnia-style split is inevitable if you ask me. A friend of mine who teaches politics suggests that the election system in Iraq was drawn up in a way that this would be compatible with (and may even encourage), but I'm out of my depth on those discussions.
Maybe when you're not fighting religious fanatics.
Who isn't these days? Bush mentions God in almost every speach and he has gone on record saying that God told him to invade Iraq. The Chinese and anti-religion to the point of it being a religion itself! The Israeli's believe they have a religious/ethnic right to own that piece of the middle east. The Islamists see our culture as abhorent and fight any signs of it near them, and they are willing to die to do this. We're left with the Buddists and I'm sure a few of them want to create their own "King James" edition, removing the non-violence ideals! ;-)
Do you want to stop most war? Disprove the existance of God beyond all doubt and argument. That will be a glorious day for humanity.
Five bucks says these new nukes will have DRM. Doesn't everything these days?
Rather, in an odd (and tragic) way I think that the lack of WMDs actually proves that the administration really believed they were there. If they were really corrupt enough to build a war on a lie, why not go the extra half-mile and plant the evidence as well? Incompetence - yes, but a knowing lie? I djust deon't make sense when you think it through...
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
Wasn't the whole point of the non-proliferation treaty for non-nuclear states to remain that way, and in exchange the nuclear states would dispose of their nuclear arsenals over time?
The policy of developing new nukular weapons seems an outright betrayal of that treaty. If one signatory openly disregards the treaty, how can we in good conscience criticize another nation for threatening to withdraw from the treaty.
I'm just saying...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
As an American let me be the first to say. You are a retard. There is something to be said for the good old boy way of life. You know where a man is "only as good as his word" and "a hand shake is all you need". It is obvious from your comments that you believe people who are different than you are some how inferior...that's pretty lame dude.
Here's a novel idea. Why don't we all stop trying to identify so much with individual nations and start trying to identify with causes we all believe in. Oh wait you probably don't believe that Americans have the same basic set of morals that you do right? All of us Americans just want to bomb out the rest of the world and knock France of their high horse huh?
Sheesh and to think you actually thought you had some sort of point with your sweeping generalizations about Americans.
what?
Of course they can. Carbon Nanotubes can apparently do everything else, so of course they can do it. They'll be used to bring us free fusion (the engery of the future, and always will be) and we can just fly our car down to fusion-r-us and plug one of these little antimatter watchamacallits in and charge it up like cheap cell phone. Badabing, all set.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
It's a dishonest offer because he's an Islamist nutjob who wants to annihilate the Great Satan (also known as Modern Civilization) because of some divine inspiration that he received from the Quran, or from his ass. Nuclear weapons are very much needed in this world, and I don't see how the situation will ever change. If nobody stops Iran from acquiring nuclear capability, then somebody is going to get nuked.
But there is, so far, no evidence that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons. And nobody, not even Iran, is arguing that Iran having nuclear weapons would be a good thing. The point of contention relates to nuclear power plants. Under 1968's Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, nations have the right to develop nuclear power, including enriching their own uranium.
What we (that is, the U.S., Germany, and a few other nations) are trying to block is Iran's uranium enrichment program, instead insisting that they purchase enriched uranium from us.
Iran, however, does not want to be dependent on foreign nations for their energy needs, as they are familiar with where that sort of thing leads.
They have in the past said they'd allow inspectors from the IAEA, but that giving up their enrichment program altogether was non-negotiable.
We have refused to negotiate on allowing enrichment, even overseen by IAEA inspectors. So, because of our complete unwillingness to negotiate, they now have an on-going, and uninspected, uranium enrichment program going on.
And, if they've learned anything from the lessons of Iraq and North Korea, they will now be doing all they can to develop nuclear weapons, knowing that we won't invade if they have them, but we almost certainly will if they don't.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
False dichotomy.
.... 20) Iraq, and would have acted accordingly instead of nursing some adolescent kick-Saddam's-ass fantasy.
The alternative to ignorant and misguided use of military force is informed and wise usage of military force.
The main cause of the current disaster in Iraq is that the invasion and post-invasion rebuilding were planned and executed under the direction of folks who were actively misinformed and ignorant of basic facts of the Middle East and Iraq. For instance, "crusade" is the absolute worst word to use to describe a policy in the Mideast, but GWB used it. Turkish involvement in Iraq would bring back memories of the Ottoman Empire, but some idiots thought that all Muslims are alike, so involving Turkey would smooth things over; anybody who could count the population of Iraq figured it would take about 300,000 troops, but Shinseki was shitcanned and we went in with half that number; Iraq had nothing to do with (and Saddam Hussein was absolutely opposed to the agenda of) Islamic fundamentalism and Al Qaeda, but the Bush administration seems to actually believe it's political rhetoric tying those together; Iraq was a barely cohesive entity made up of three distinct ethnic/religious groups with no history of peacful and democratic co-existence, but the administration believed it could be magically turned into a multi-party multi-ethnic democracy overnight.
Somebody who knew anything about Iraq, for example, the British experience there in the 1920's and 1930's, would have agreed with GHWB's decision that toppling Saddam Hussein would cause mass disruption and create a fertile environment for lots of stuff bad for America to happen. In fact, they might have recognized that the main threats to America on Sept 12th 2001 were something like 1) Al Qaeda based in Afghanistan 2) North Korea 3) Pakistan 4) Iran
Can we suggest replacing fucking idiotic incompetent faith-based morons with capable, intelligent, fact-based experts without being labeled as wimps?
And, by the way, the primary reason Bill Clinton didn't get Osama bin Laden with cruise missiles is because our "ally in the war on terror" Pakistan tipped him off.
Yeah, but you've got Quebec. Get rid of that and we'll consider assimilating the rest of you into our collective.
-- I have monkeys in my pants.
No, but it will most likely mean they will be replaced by politicians who are touchy feely and believe we shouldnt' do anything to stand up to militant Islam. Well, unless you think lobbing cruise missles into baby food factories is something.
I take it you consider kicking over a country and turning into a hotbed of terrorism over aluminum rocket tubes, a forged purchase letter "signed" by a dead man, and mobile weather balloon stations to be doing something more substantial, then?
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
The rational objections to U.S. policy with regard to Iran are not bourn from a desire to see a 'fair' distribution of nuclear weapons. The rational objection to U.S. policy with regard to Iran is that ALL the social awareness sculpting through the media and the actions of the government are designed to start another war in the Middle East. Period. ANY semi-logical sounding argument for doing so will be employed to trick the public into going along with this desire. It is easy to come up with good sounding arguments for even the dumbest ideas.
War is profitable. Chaos is profitable. That is the bottom line. (Well, that and speeding along the Christian cultic agenda toward the apocalypse. But that's another story). --Priming the U.S. population for war with Iran has nothing to do with any of the reasons you suggest. Bush and his people are not interested in any philosophy which does not seek to maintain imbalance, chaos and a steady flow of public funds into their pockets through third party companies, (oil, defense, etc.).
They fooled the world once with WMD's in Iraq. They're doing it again with this nonsense about uranium plants in Iran. It's all propaganda and social programming.
-FL
We killed one hundred thousands civilians in Iraq. That's why the world is screaming about 15 more. I guess 15 more people don't count to you, because it "isn't proven" other than the dead bodies of kids shot in the back of the head, and all the witnesses, and the length Rumsfeld went to cover it up.
Americans can't process news in context.
Bush lied about Iraq wanting to attack us. He lied about them being connected with 9-11. He ignored every sane voice in the CIA and the military and the rest of the world, and invaded and conquered a helpless country, killing at least 30,000 and a statistically certain 70,000 more. We can't be sure because he claims we don't count the dead on the other side.
We alloted the oil fields to the four international oil companies, who have issued marching orders to the people of Iraq, dictating pricing and threats of retaliation if they are ever cut out of the deal. We stole their oil. We stole their treasury and looted it.
We rounded up anybody who looked at us funny and put them in concentration camps. We tortured the prisoners.
We let loose mercs and thugs and killers to steal and kill at will. The troops on the ground hate those 1000 dollar a day bastards. Remember the SA merc who shot innocent people from a vehicle, taped it, and set it to music, then released his video on the internet? That's a atom of what's happened on the ground there.
There's almost no power. Shit is coming out of Bagdad's water faucets. Literal manure. The contractors ran off with duffel bags of money and fixed jack shit.
20 billion in cash on pallets went missing. That was Iraqi money, not ours. We stole it.
We refused to let any Iraqis in on the rebuilding contracts. they went to American, well-connected republican contractors only. Who stole the money. Iraqis are not permitted to rebuild their own country. And oh yes, we paid the contractors with Iraqi money, so they are broke.
American troops, 90 percent of them, still think that they are punishing the country that attacked us on 9-11. Why? The Armed Forces only show Fox News Channel. The only radio they get piped in is Rush Limbaugh and NPR (which isn't exactly a bastion of truth about the war since the "cleanup" by Bush's enforcers). The soldiers have their web access to news filtered so they don't hear about, oh, Bush's lying about Saddam and 9-11. This all means that they still think they are kicking the asses of the enemies of America.
There aren't any "terrorists" in Iraq. There are pissed off patriots trying to kick out a conquering army.
These are the reasons why 15 who-cares people shot in the head on their knees makes the world scream. Deal with it. GET SOME PERSPECTIVE. Join the Reality Based Community, as Rove called it.
Bob Woodward got surpisingly straight answers about the runup to war in his book, "Plan of Attack".
The administration was afraid sanctions would (continue to) unravel, were afraid of an incident in the no-fly zone if the Iraqis, after hundreds of failed attempts, shot down an American pilot, and the administration took a terrifyingly uninhibited interpretation of the previous administration's "regime change" policy. A few people articulating a vision of a domino theory of democracy to reshape the Middle East.
The war was not about WMD.
Wolfowitz let this slip in July 2003: '"I'm not concerned about weapons of mass destruction," Wolfowitz told a group of reporters traveling with him. "I'm concerned about getting Iraq on its feet. I didn't come (to Iraq) on a search for weapons of mass destruction." ' and ' "the decision to highlight weapons of mass destruction as the main justification for going to war in Iraq was taken for bureaucratic reasons...." '
The mindshare taken up by debate over WMD keeps people's eyes off the ball.
Where do you guys get this "They don't like us, they must envy us" nonsense ? You keep assuming everyone wants to be like an American. They don't. They just want to live their lives.
The US will support Israel in whatever it does. So when a Palestinian father all of a sudden is not allowed to go to work anymore, and can't provide any income for his family, he's supposed to like the US ? When a farmer wakes up to find a huge concrete wall where his fields used to be, he's supposed to just shrug it off ? What exactly are his courses of action here : can he go complain to the Israeli authorities ? These people have no control over large parts of their every day lives. Men who never had any bad thought in their entire lives will get so frustrated with being powerless that they're an easy target for people who try to get them to support terrorist activity. Give them the tools to control their own lives, and they will ignore the extremists.
This in no way excuses any harmful activity against others. But the Americans keep handing extremists the perfect recruitment tools.
To state that about what I specifically complained about is unattainable is cynical defeatism.
- Is not torturing prisoners unattainable?
- Is following the 6th Amendment and not having indefinite detentions unattainable?
- Is not privatizing an occupation (or at the very least keeping discipline in the security contractors) unattainable?
- Is keeping soldier discipline and morale high enough to avoid civillian massacres unattainable?
History shows we can do better than this. I don't believe that these goals are so hard to accomplish, and I think the betrayal of the Constitution that the first two represent is far closer to treason than demanding our government do better.Not only that but you're publicaly mocking them, thereby making them looks worse in the eyes of other citizens, your allies, and your enemies.
What would you have us do? Praise torture and the infliction of such despair as to cause repeated suicide attempts? Praise prison camps held outside the US specifically to skirt our Constitutional protections? Praise the use of unaccountable mercenaries to handle security? Or shoud I just close my eyes and pretend that we are the same as we were before and that these acts do not sully America. These things happened. Now we have to actually deal with them, and we can't do that with people attacking everybody with a sense of decency for not mutely saluting the flag and giving our blind faith to it.
As Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing," and that is exactly what you are asking of us with such a cynical comment.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").