Immaturity Level Rising in Adults

Ant writes to tell us that a Discovery News article is exploring the old adage, "like a kid at heart", which may be closer to the truth than we would like to admit. New research is showing that grown-ups are more immature than ever. From the article: "Specifically, it seems a growing number of people are retaining the behaviors and attitudes associated with youth. As a consequence, many older people simply never achieve mental adulthood, according to a leading expert on evolutionary psychiatry."

Comments

To that I say...

[Aadain2001]

They are all just poopy-heads! Big, smelly, ugly, poopy-heads!

Re:To that I say...

[Skidge]

They are all just poopy-heads! Big, smelly, ugly, poopy-heads!

Nu-uh! You're a poopy-head!

Re:To that I say...

[Kierthos]

Well, um, you've got cooties!

Resignation.

[haeger]

[Stolen from some website]

Adult Resignation
To Whom It May Concern:

I am hereby officially tendering my resignation as an adult.

I have decided I would like to accept the responsibilities of a 6 year old again.

I want to go to McDonald's and think that it's a four star restaurant.
I want to sail sticks across a fresh mud puddle and make ripples with rocks.
I want to think M&Ms are better than money, because you can eat them.
I want to play kickball during recess and paint with watercolors in art.
I want to lie under a big Oak tree and run a lemonade stand with my friends on a hot summers day.
I want to return to a time when life was simple.
When all you knew were colors, addition tables and simple nursery rhymes. But that didn't bother you, because you didn't know what you didn't know and you didn't care.
When all you knew was to be happy because you didn't know all the things that should make you worried and upset.
I want to think that the world is fair. That everyone in it is honest and good.
I want to believe that anything is possible.
Somewhere in my youth...I matured and I learned too much.

I learned of nuclear weapons, war, prejudice, starvation and abused children.
I learned of lies, unhappy marriages, suffering, illness, pain and death.
I learned of a world where men left their families to go and fight for our country, and returned only to end up living on the streets... begging for their next meal.
I learned of a world where children knew how to kill...and did.

What happened to the time when we thought that everyone would live because we didn't grasp the concept of death?
When we thought the worst thing in the world was if someone took the jump rope from you or picked you last for kickball?

I want to be oblivious to the complexity of life and be overly excited by little things once again. I want to return to the days when reading was fun and music was clean. When television was used to report the news or for family entertainment and not to promote sex, violence and deceit.

I remember being naive and thinking that everyone was happy because I was.
I would walk on the beach and only think of the sand between my toes and the prettiest seashell I could find.
I would spend my afternoon climbing trees and riding my bike.

I didn't worry about time, bills or where I was going to find the money to fix my car.
I used to wonder what I was going to do or be when I grew up, not worry about what I'll do if this doesn't work out.

I want to live simple again.
I don't want my day to consist of computer crashes, mountains of paperwork, depressing news, how to survive more days in the month than there is money in the bank, doctor bills, gossip, illness and loss of loved ones.
I want to believe in the power of smiles, hugs, a kind word, truth, justice, peace, dreams, the imagination, mankind and making angels in the snow.

I want to be 6 again.

.haeger

Re:Resignation.

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to think M&Ms are better than money, because you can eat them.

Clearly you were unimaginative as a kid, and thus missed out on the special trip to the hospital.

I want to go back to the time when green was a flavour.

Re:Resignation.

[dhalgren]

I want that too.

Now I just have to find somebody to clothe, feed, and house me while I indulge myself.

Re:Resignation.

[Chrax]

"I don't like what I've found, so rather than do what I can to change anything for the better, I'd rather revert to a state of ignorance and pretend there's nothing to fix."

I find this to be a rather appalling abdication of responsibility. Which I suppose is the entire point.

Re:Resignation.

[19thNervousBreakdown]

I just want to say I hate shit like this.

This chain-letter bullshit is all the same. On some ultra-shallow level it seems great, and sentimental, but with 3 seconds of thought and usually two sentences in it becomes obvious what trite crap it is. Whether it's wanting to be 6, or learning everything you need to know from your dog, or whatever other BS that gets mailed around it all sounds like it was written by the same person on a Robotussin binge. Just awful stuff, horribly written and with no intellectual value whatsoever.

On a less general note, if you want to be 6 again, fuck off and go be 6. Work in a factory, it's got about the same level of responsibility. It doesn't sound like somebody whistfully remembering childhood, it sounds like a man-child that doesn't want to contribute to society because it's hard.

Now, before you ask who pissed in my Fruit Loops, nobody did. I have a sense of humor, and am usually a pretty carefree guy. This type of "humor" just manages to push almost every last button I have. The only way it could get worse is if some sadist let George Carlin have a whack at it, with lots of Jeff Foxworthy-worthy lists, some booger-eating references, and "fuck" every 4th word to make it sound adult. When are people going to realize that guy's a hack?

Re:Resignation.

[MooseByte]

"Now I just have to find somebody to clothe, feed, and house me while I indulge myself."

I'm sorry, my ex-wife already has that position filled.

Laugh or Cry

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's because as the world turns increasingly to s h i t, people develop a imaturity complex derived from the "laugh" half of the proverbial "laugh or cry" syndrome.

Re:Laugh or Cry

[cp.tar]

There is a reason why most stand-up comedians are people with a hard personal history.

Humour, cynicsm, sarcasm... all defence mechanisms.

Does this surprise anybody?

[agent dero]

With the focus in the past few decades on feelings, emotions, and our complete obsession with "our inner child." It's not surprising at all, it's been a while since we cared about some responsibility.

There's a reason people are suing everybody, there's a reason tobacco companies have been losing so much money in courts; we're like a cuontry of 8 year olds, always pointing at somebody else in the back of class that through the paper airplane.

That said, I think we're going to see a turn around with the generation in college right now, less divorces, less stupidity because it seems that more and more young people are sick and tied of the bullshit.

Re:Does this surprise anybody?

[node 3]

There's a reason people are suing everybody

What, exactly, is wrong with suing someone? It's a legitimate and often necessary thing to do. There is no "plague" of lawsuits, the way you are trying to present it.

there's a reason tobacco companies have been losing so much money in courts

Yes, they are deliberately killing people. Or put more accurately, but lengthily, they knowingly lied about the medical risks and addictive qualities of cigarettes, portrayed them in advertisements as cool, including marketing that was deliberately designed to appeal to children, and, as if all that wasn't bad enough, they knowingly added ingredients which are very toxic and purposefully formulated cigarettes that are even more addicting than they naturally were!

That said, I think we're going to see a turn around with the generation in college right now, less divorces, less stupidity

Not gonna happen. The reason is that your lament is millennia old. Seriously. There are writings from ancient Greece and Rome that read exactly like the cranky old man of today, who decries the awful state of the youth "these days". If you want the divorce rate to go down, the number one thing you can do is to make it so that the middle class is strong and vibrant, and that people have great financial security and physical health. If you, on the other hand, make it so that both members of the married couple have to work long and hard just to scrape by, how can you possibly be surprised that the stress of daily life will have a detrimental toll on their marriage?

because it seems that more and more young people are sick and tied of the bullshit.

Wishful thinking made by someone who clearly hasn't turned on a television in the last 20 years. Just as it had always been, youth culture will reject the rigid demands of old coots like yourself. Just like always, there will be a segment of the youth who will be very responsible and upstanding. And just like always, life will go on and a whole new cadre of old coots will spout the same old nonsense about how the "youth of today" are worse than ever, just as it has always been for thousands of years.

Re:Does this surprise anybody?

[highonlife]

always pointing at somebody else in the back of class that through the paper airplane.

Did it happen during english class when they were teaching the word "throw"?

Re:Does this surprise anybody?

[Bloke down the pub]

we're like a cuontry of 8 year olds, always pointing at somebody else in the back of class that through the paper airplane.

Eight year olds can spell "country" and "threw". Now write both of them 100 times, or I'll keep you in at recess.

Re:Does this surprise anybody?

[_Sprocket_]

There's a difference between "I know this piece of fried chicken is bad for me" and "wow - this piece of fried chicken was prepared with rat poison because Fried Chicken Inc's research showed that rat poison would make me crave it more".

Re:Does this surprise anybody?

[killjoe]

All tort reform will accomlish will be the ability of corporations and the govt to kill people without paying the consequences.

I would be in favor of tort reform if the monetary damages were limited but if found guilty the doctor or the CEO went to jail. You know hold people personally responsible for their actions and decisions.

It will never happen of course. They will limit the monetary damages and also make themselves immune from any other punishment too.

Not sure about this guy's definitions

[Bombula]

"immature ... in the sense of being unpredictable, unbalanced in priorities, and tending to overreact."

I'm not sure if that's the world's best definition of immaturity, since its corollary would suggest that maturity is defind by predictability, having balance of priorities (what does that mean?), and not overreacting (does that mean reacting appropriately - how do you define appropriate?).

I hate to reduce things to an argument over definitions, but this stuff seems a little fruity to me. I think a simpler definition of maturity is a willingness to accept responsibility for oneself and for others. By that definition, then we definitely do see a lot of immature, i.e.: irresponsible, behavior among adults - probably because irresponsibility no longer gets you eaten by lions and tigers and bears the way it did for our hunter-gatherer ancestors.

But this guy is definitely right about the value of maintaining mental elasticity as an adult. My grandfather is a good example. He was a prof at a big university and has always had an amazingly agile and adaptive mind. And today I got an email from him of some pictures he took on his digital camera that he doctored in photoshop. Th guy is 86 years old. Email went mainstream when he was in his late 70s, for God's sake.

Re:Not sure about this guy's definitions

[Bloke down the pub]

I don't see any reason one can't keep a child-like mind while still being financially responsible and dependable.

Greetings! My daddy used to be the nigerain minizter for candies and in my house I have a very enourmus jar of sweets. Unfortunatly this jar is guarded by my big brother, but if you give me ten bucks I will bribe him to open it for me ... er us and I will share them with you.

It's all about definitions

[Silver Sloth]

From TFA

A "child-like flexibility of attitudes, behaviors and knowledge" is probably adaptive to the increased instability of the modern world, Charlton believes. Formal education now extends well past physical maturity, leaving students with minds that are, he said, "unfinished."

and

"By contrast, many modern adults fail to attain this maturity, and such failure is common and indeed characteristic of highly educated and, on the whole, effective and socially valuable people," he said.

So it looks like his definition of 'maturity' coresponds to my 'boring old fart', which, at the age of 53, I hope I'm not.

It's a symptom of the cause,

[centipetalforce]

...not the cause of the symptom. I hear jokes that sound ridiculous when heard from third person all the time that I might laugh at if told to me. But stupid jokes don't cause immaturity, nor vice versa necessarily. It does all depend on the taste and context though, as some third grad jokes are as good as ever if done in the right context and aren't done in a derisive or tasteless sense.

But the real cause of bad jokes is that people are as desperate as ever to be well liked. I blame that on the growing culture of sexual presumptiveness in our society. You can't just go up to a stranger and start conversing with them usually without her/him thinking your up to something, no matter how natural you are (unless you have a reason to be talking). People in general are paranoid, presumptive, and take themselves too seriously. They have nightmare stories in the back of their minds from 'Unsolved Mysteries' that tell them never to talk to strangers because they will rape and kill you!

At least, that's the way people are in my town. I dunno about yours.

Personal position

[heinousjay]

I can only speak for myself.

I reject the traditional concepts of maturity. I refuse to spend my life doing things I don't like because of some outmoded notion of 'have to.' The pressure to grow up, to think like an adult, is ridiculous and useless from an objective standpoint.

This doesn't mean shirking responsibility is part of the mindset. It simply means I try to retain a childlike viewpoint on the world. One of the most important things children have that most adults lack is a sense of wonder and discovery. The benefits are astonishing.

That said, I didn't actually read the article, as it were, so I may be wildly off-topic. In true immature fashion, whatever.

Responsibility

[abdulwahid]

I think part of the problem might be that people are not forced to grow up and take responsibility at such a young age as they were before. I am now living in Africa but comparing my experiences to when I was living in the West I see this every day. Many children here have to take serious responsibilities in life from a young age. Perhaps they have to look after whole families or simply go out and find food every day for themselves. Regardless, when speaking to some of the young people you find that they are relatively mature.

Perhaps in the West people are too protected and hence don't need to grow up. Many people by the age of 18 have never gone to bed with hunger pains. They have probably never had a real job. They are probably given an allowance from their parents that they can go and waste on useless luxuries. The kids in the West are pampered and spoilt. No wonder there is a trend towards immaturity.

Re:Responsibility

[Planesdragon]

I think part of the problem might be that people are not forced to grow up and take responsibility at such a young age as they were before.

Nope, sorry.

The friends of mine who HAVE had to take responsibility at a young age, who HAVE gone to bed with hunger pains (and not out of choice) are far more immature and unable to take care of themselves than those of us who were children until the age of 18. Being introduced to hardship doesn't cause one to grow up faster -- it causes one to stop growing and start muddling through, even if they're not ready.

If you look at the rate of war, murder, and general chaos, you'll find that those regions of the world where children are not allowed to mature before being forced to act like adults are far worse off than places like the west. While I won't argue that western children are "spoiled" far more often than their african counterparts -- I think I'd rather my children be spoiled than broken.

Re:Responsibility

[abdulwahid]

If you look at the rate of war, murder, and general chaos, you'll find that those regions of the world where children are not allowed to mature before being forced to act like adults are far worse off than places like the west. While I won't argue that western children are "spoiled" far more often than their african counterparts -- I think I'd rather my children be spoiled than broken.

I don't think that is true - at least not universally. Where I am there is obious poverty and hardship wherever you look however the city is thousdands of times safer than most Western cities. Crime is very low here (virtually unheard of) and most of the crime that might happen is very small petty theft.

It is of course true that hardship can lead to desperation and desperation could lead to violence. So if you point is Africa is more violent than Western Europe then that might be true. However, there are other factors involved rather than just poverty and hardship. However, I would hardly say the US is a non-violent nation it is just the type of fighting undertaken by the US is usually more distant. Long range missles rather than street to street. The visual impact is therefore different and people mistakenly think that dropping cruise missles is somehow more humane.

However, my point is not directly about hardship but about responsibility. People here (in Africa) generally have to act responsible from a young age where socially they are required to look after themselves and their families from a younger age. In the West the children are generally spoilt and don't even have to look after themselves.

Also, I am not saying that one way is better than the other. I think childhood is great time and it is a shame that many children here in Africa miss out on being children. I am just highlighting what might be a potential cause of the alleged increase in immaturity.

Re:Responsibility

[Trifthen]

I think to a certain degree, that something like this happened to me. I grew up dirt poor, and worked diligently to absolutely pulverize school, finish a fully loaded IB curriculum, and get a college degree to escape that whole mess. I went to bed hungry, lived in trailers, moved a lot, and basically ran the house myself until I went to college.

There's something about barely having a childhood that makes me want to be childish. I was 40 when I was 15, so I think I deserve the luxury of a few video games and a silly outlook now that I've made something of myself. I know what it's like to live a banal existence where laughs are forced or tied to shutting out everything looming menacingly ahead. I burned out at 18, and reached the conclusion that people take life too seriously; I made a vow to live and enjoy the little time I've been allotted. It's a cycle, really. I could spend the rest of my days resenting my past, be a bitter old fart ranting of rules and rigid discipline to reach success, but I know where that road leads.

Responsibility? Sure, no question. Maturity to a fault? No. We have a rare opportunity to retain some of our childish antics in our old age, so why not enjoy it? Ever notice people generally calm down considerably once they are grandparents? They've experienced the utter maturity of raising children, they've tried the rules and regulations, punishments and experimentation. Grandma knows the deal now, she conspires with your children to undermine your authority, because she knows something you haven't quite learned: sometimes it's better to be "immature."

But the parent poster had a major point: spoiled children aren't merely immature, they're sheltered and unprepared for maturity. It's a critical difference, and one the article misses. Without any other recourse, people continue with what they know and slowly realize it doesn't suffice when confronted with the inherent complexity of the adult world. Without a bailout, these people flounder horribly, and make immature decisions mostly through ignorance. They'll "grow up," but it'll take longer. Now we see where "helicopter parenting" truly leads.

Not pretty, is it?

By the way, some of those friends of yours who act immature? Talk to them sometime. That part of them which lived hard and grew up before their time is still there. Tell them to flip the switch and speak candidly, and they'll likely comply. If you ever want to see one of your funny or seemingly flippant friends suddenly become a wise old sage, it's a simultaneously terrible and awe-inspiring sight to behold.

A way to deal

[demon_2k]

I think that this is just a way for adults to deal with the stress of current day life. Or a side affect if you will.

Who wants to be six again?

[SuperKendall]

Yes that's all very sentimental but why do you want to be six again, an age where from time to time you can sail a stick across a mud puddle but more often than not you are told you can't go near the mud muddle because you're wearing good clothes/at a wedding/supposed to stay dry? Who yearns for a time when everything is out of your control and sailing sticks across a pond is fun because you've still to undeveloped mentally to enjoy a good game of Risk?

I prefer a world where I have greater control over my freedom, where my education is in my own hands as is my destinty. A world where I can paint watercolors any damn time I feel like no matter what I'm wearing and while I am aware of nuclear weapons I can also dismiss such vapid fears casually to enjoy a warm summer day.

Being an adult is awesome if you just follow the golden words of Paul McCartney and let it be!

Academics, eh?

[EnglishTim]

From the artice:

The theory's creator is Bruce Charlton, a professor in the School of Biology at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, England...
"People such as academics, teachers, scientists and many other professionals are often strikingly immature outside of their strictly specialist competence..."


I'm amused that he singles out academics, teachers and scientists - pretty much the exact description of people he has in his department. Not that I wish to suggest that the fine fellows at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne are in any way immature (I did my Bachelor's degree there), but I can't help thinking that his paper is by implication not exactly flattering to them.

Worldwide?

[Bazman]

Some people have commented that this is only happening in developed nations. But if it happens all over teh globe, would that make it a Peter Pan-demic?

It depends

[Vandil X]

Before we got married, my wife and I decided to not have kids. Over the years since and to this day, when people ask us why we don't have any kids, we simply say "We're not done being kids, ourselves."

And its true. We'd just rather spend all of that child-rearing money on ourselves and keep our options open (go out/take trips whenever), while not having to put up with the hassles of tending to kids.

I'm sure many traditionally-raised folks might see this as immature or selfish, but it all depends on the point of view.

Re:It depends

[abdulwahid]

Unfortunately the dumber you are the more kids you have, all the dumb people I know have multiple kids, all the smart successful ones have none.

Surely it depends on your definition of success and not everyone works towards the same goals in life. If sucess is having a big house, international holidays and a fast car....then you might want to forget about the kids. However, for me success is having a happy family. I much prefer to spend days playing with my children than staying in some luxury resort. So in that way when I have children I am successful as I am achieving my goals.

I have a friend who has 12 children in the UK. It seems extreme but I have never seen a family who are as happy, polite, well mannered and as educated. I don't think it is true that the dumber you are the more kids you have. The parents of these children are like walking encyclopedias and have knowledge of so many things in life. They are also generous and peaceful. I would say they have been successful in life. But the father drives a mini-bus rather than a sports car (he has to with 12 kids).

Responsibility is key

[SuperKendall]

I don't think the immaturity discussion at hand has really anything to do with becoming one of the Sheeple and conforming to expected norms. I think it has everything to do with accepting responsibilities. That I think is a growing problem that people seem to be less responsible than in the past...

I myself am happy to maintain a child like outlook on life but I also take responsibilities and commitments and relationships very seriously. Perhaps it is the erosion of serious relationships in society (and that could mean anything from partners to very close friends) that is tainting other aspects of life for some people.

Its Simple Really

[artoffacts]

Adults are typically hard to sell to. Children on the other hand typically make easy marks. So how do you make sure that your target market remains in a blissful pre-lapsarian haze in the face of age and oncoming responsibility?

You produce them as such.

Thomas Doherty once quipped that "movies reflect teenage, not mass - and definitely not adult - tastes". Hollywood, The TV industry, glossy magazines, etc, are all interested in doing one thing: producing you as an unquestioning consumer whose core concerns are childlike.

Take for example these new Nike Ronaldino ads whose catchphrase is "never grow up". I don't want to go all Barthes here but these ads are so shameless in their meaning production that you wonder how any adult with an IQ over 80 could fall for their message. It's pitiful really.

Explaination

[Zemran]

Growing old is mandatory but growing up is optional... and I opted out.

Re:Explaination

[hey!]

If you are sufficently self centered and poor/uninterested in reading social cues, you'll never realize that you are pathetic middle aged man sponging off his parents and frittering away all his time on their broadband connection.

In a way if you are sufficiently far from realizing you are pathetic, it is indistinguishable from not being pathetic. It's like being so far away from being a normal human being that you approach a semblence of it, as it were, coming from the other direction.

Re:Explaination

[hey!]

And you sound too old... and maybe a little bitter. Is this a way of telling everyone that you wished you were a "sufficently self centered and ... are pathetic middle aged man sponging off his parents and frittering away all his time on their broadband connection"?

Bitter?

No. It only sounds that way because of the general paucity of irony in the world.

I think of this as an optimistic viewpoint.

What I'm saying is nobody is pathetic -- or at lest nobody needs to feel pathetic. And if you don't feel pathetic, then the contempt of others is a waste of time. It's the person who is disturbed by others who don't measure up to his values is closer being pathetic than the object of his scorn. If the only way you notice other people is to scorn them, then the person who doesn't notice other people at all is better off.

The example I used was chosen to be the most conventionally contemptible one I could come up with. Apparently it hit some moderator a bit close to home.

Re:Explaination

[hey!]

How _OLD_ are you exactly? Frittering?

Well, depends on how you measure age:

(1) Old enough to remember a 300 baud modem as an upgrade.

(2) Old enough to have used TIPs to access the ArpaNet.

(3) Old enough to remember bang notation on email addresses.

(4) Old enough to remember V7 Unix and have worked on Multics.

(5) Old enough to remmeber how sdb was big improvement on adb, but still using adb sometimes because it was easier to patch object code with it if you knew machine language.

(6) Old enough to remmber CPU clock speeds measured in KHz.

(7) Old enough to have worked on a system with a 5MB hard disk.

(8) Old enough to have seen punched cards, drum memory and CRT memory in the flesh, albeit as surplus hulks in the basement and not working machines.

(9) Old enough to have bootstrapped a computer via its front panel switches.

(10) Old enough to remember when "core" memory was actually made out of cores -- magnetic beads.

(11) Old enough that when I started in the business, I had older colleagues who would say things like, "I remember getting 4K of RAM on our 1401; we thought we had the world by the balls. That was a stored program jobbie, you know". Sometimes, as we sat around on the cracker barrels whittling new dot matrix print heads, a few would admit to being old enough to have worked on Whirlwind (which was programmbed by plug boards).

(12) Old enough to have a five digit /. user id.

Re:Explaination

[turnipsatemybaby]

Luxury!

I had to catch a bird and press it's beak against a revolving stone slab!

Burden is an illusion

[SuperKendall]

When you are 6 you are unburdened by the full weight of reality

What weight? Is there a physical cinder block upon you? Put it to the side then. All other weight, especially mental weight, is chosen by you. You are the one who decides if weight of your imagining is dragging you down or something to stand upon.

The point I am making is that being much older I have had many more experiences and am able to enjoy them in ways a six-year old is not, as I can enjoy more esoteric pleasure just as much as splashing in a puddle (alluded to in the words of the musical Chess with "The Queens we use would not excite you"). My higher level of awareness also leads to greater ability to experience joy. While it is true that also means a greater ability to experience esoteric suffering, I would not give my far vaster scope of ability to simply feel more just because sometimes there is pain. There was pain when I was six as well so what would be the difference except that by opting to stay six forever I would wish myself to be enclosed in a box.

Have you ever read Flowers For Algernon? There is a reason why that story is a sad tale instead of a joyous return to a blissful state of ignorance.

Re:Burden is an illusion

[Bastian]

I haven't read His Dark Materials, but I have read the others.

Calvin and Hobbes I don't take as a great example. Calvin is emotionally unstable, creates a lot of problems for those around him, and doesn't strike me as being particularly much happier than the other characters in the story. Hobbes makes an interesting foil; he's often used to underline the silliness of Calvin's destructive behavior. He's much more mature than Calvin, gets along with others better, and doesn't harbor nearly as much anger. Calvin may be the protagonist, but he's not the hero.

Winnie the Pooh was written for children, so the characters are naturally going to be very childlike. However, I don't see a single life lesson that comes from Pooh which can't be applied in adult life - indeed, Pooh's easygoing attitude is something I see in adults far more often than in children. I don't have kids of my own, but at least in public I often marvel at how strongly they can fixate on small, inconsequential objects, which strikes me as just about the last thing Winnie-the-Pooh would ever do. I'd say that, of all the characters in the Pooh series, Pooh and Christopher Robin represent the attitudes and ways of thinking of children that I've met the least well. Far more often, they remind me of Rabbit or Tigger.

Really, if I had to say anything about Pooh's character, I'd say that he represents the patience and equanimity that are the best qualities of well-mannered adults, and that he was made somewhat dim in an effort to counteract his otherwise overhwelming wisdom in an effort to keep the character entertaining, as well as to make it easier for children to relate to him.

I remember being six...

[S.P.B.Wylie]

And it wasn't the paradise you remember. Sure, someone stealing you jump rope was you biggest problem, but at the time you felt like it was the end of the world. You would often throw fits, yell, and generally colapse. Now we look back at that stuff and think how easy we had it, because we have grown up and can handle it.

Instead of "wishing to be six," I want to learn to be a adult that thinks like a six-year-old. I want to be able to deal with problems in a responcible manner, but still understand the fun of silly hats. I want to understand that there are bad things in the world, but still meet the world with smiles and a it-will-work-out deminer. We have the misconception that we must be cyical adults just because we have reached a certain age. I'm going to be a kid forever!

Oh, and remember, if you became 6 again, you would have your teenage years to look forward to *shudder*

Oh I agree ( Was Re:Does this surprise anybody?)

[kaiwai]

You hint it right on the noggen; the number of so-called adults who seem to have the maturity of a child seems to be an increasing phenomenon in our society; I just look down the road and on the news; the 'everyone elses fault except my own' syndrome. There are people on the benefit having children, knowing full well they don't have the funds to pay for the associated costs, we have couples having more children than they can afford, then demanding that the tax payer for the bill for their lifestyle choice.

All this is actually a biproduct of our modern day welfare state, and the nanny state complex which people have adopted, that we shouldn't take responsibility for our actions, because good old nanny state will always be there to whipe out bottoms, and stop us from doing moronic things.

Regarding smoking, the health issues have been known for over 60 years, if people CHOOSE to live under a rock, and REFUSE to take in the information that is readily out there, who is to blame? I don't blame the cigarette companies - they're like any other company, make their product look sexy, close over any possible health issues, and keep on pushing.

If you're going to blame cigarette for the associated health costs of smoking, why not allow people to sue fast food companies who fail to put warning labels and advertise that if their product is consumed in excess, it could cause health problems? why not extend it to the confectionary and snake food companies? heck, why not put a big sticker on cars that warn that due to the bad driving of others, you could possibly die!

Honestly, it is getting to the point where I ask, when are people going to take responsibility for their actions - that is the cornerstone of being an adult, making your choices and accepting the consequences of those choices.

Re:The fact that that was modded "insightful"...

[Silas Palmer-Cannon]

The fact that that was modded insightful is proof of this phenomena. And also a little ironic.

Maturity

[Channing]

What is the formal definition of maturity ? I RTFA and didn't see one so its impossible to agree or disagree with it.

I see two definitions

[S.P.B.Wylie]

One definition is the idea that mature people "don't like silly things." I personally think these people need a pie in the face. Life is hard, life is stressful, and sometimes you just have to enjoy the silly and simple things.

The other definition (and I feel the more relevant one) is the responsibility factor. I would say "accountability" works better than "responsibility," even though responsibility is how everyone is refuring to it. As for this, I feel it is definately true that people aren't accountable enough. People (in America at least) seem to be told to watch themselves, and people stop looking out for the guy next to them. We all affect each other, and we all need to be accountable for that. NO PERSON IS AN ISLAND.

The trick is to take the best of both worlds. Enjoy a good pie fight, but have the courtecy to help clean up

Re:What is wrong with being child-like

[GoofyBoy]

>sometimes the 6-year-old has it right. "Why don't people just talk instead of having wars?"

Have you've ever seen two 6 year olds fight over a useless toy both of them will forget in about 2 hours?

Have you've ever seen a 6 year old go into extreme crying/temper tantrum mode causing fustration to their parents (you know, the ones who feed and love them) just because they can't get a small shiny colourful package of candy?

Sometimes 6 year olds don't have it right.

Re:Indulgence?

[drsquare]

With the resources and technology we have available to humanity today, we could provide for every human being on the planet, and we could all work only 20 hours a week.

If everyone on the planet only worked 20 hours a week, and relied on technology and handouts for food and clothing, there would be no technology, no clothes and no food.

6 year olds?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Aren't they the little people who you see anoying everyone in public places because they won't stop crying their eyes out? I've always wondered what could be so awful about their lives that they feel the need to cry so much. You've done little to enlighten me.

Wasted energy competing.

[FatSean]

I think his point was much energy is wasted on the fancy shit. Luxury cars, when all we really need is a model T, so to speak. Buying those 'nice' clothes to impress your preferred sex, or the neighbors, or to show people that you have 'grown up' and can be 'taken seriously'.

Most of society and culture is wasteful and useless if your goal is to live and be happy.

Absolutely!

[why-is-it]

Growing old is mandatory but growing up is optional... and I opted out.

Absolutely! You are only young once, but you can be immature forever!

Re:Absolutely!

[indifferent children]

Do you mean "immature" or "childlike"?

Which term would describe a 40 year-old living in his mother's basement, watching 7 hours of Adult Swim every night as an alternative to being employed?

Re:Oh I agree ( Was Re:Does this surprise anybody?

[misanthrope101]

Honestly, it is getting to the point where I ask, when are people going to take responsibility for their actions - that is the cornerstone of being an adult, making your choices and accepting the consequences of those choices.

I'd say roughly never. I doubt there has ever been a time when people were really that anxious to claim responsibility for the consequences of their actions. We as a species seem only willing to take responsibility for what we meant to do, not for what we did. Military personnel take credit for defeating the enemy, but it gets kind of quiet if you imply that they might be responsible for the non-combatants they killed--that isn't their fault, just collateral damage. Is that because of the welfare state, too?

There are other aspects of our culture that dilute personal responsibility. Corporations, by design, insulate managers and shareholders from actions they benefit from personally. We're okay with that, though. No problems there. But if an INDIVIDUAL avoids responsibility, suddenly western civiliazation is in dire trouble. If a corporation files bankruptcy so the shareholders don't have to ante up to pay the debt for the entity they own, we don't bat an eyelash, but if Joe Sixpack declares Chapter 11 then we get all concerned about the state of humanity.

Government habitually hides behind secrecy to avoid responsibility. Where is the hue and cry? Why is it only the morons on Jenny Jones who get our contumely?

Because it has to be done

[Scrameustache]

I reject the traditional concepts of maturity. I refuse to spend my life doing things I don't like because of some outmoded notion of 'have to.'

Man I would hate to see your toilet, though you neighbours can probably smell it... I, on the other hand, still watch cartoons, still throw paper airplanes, but when I 'have to' do something I don't like to do, I fucking do it.

Re:Indulgence?

[rtaylor]

If everyone on the planet only worked 20 hours a week, and relied on technology and handouts for food and clothing, there would be no technology, no clothes and no food.

What makes you think that? It is pretty easy to demonstrate that a large portion of North Americans do that now. The other 20+ hours per week is usually sunk into entertainment and comfort rather than necessities.

One telling quote from the article:

[swordgeek]

The article did a rather piss-poor job of explaining what the research is suggesting, which is a pity because the topic is an interesting and complex one. Only one paragraph got the proper consequences:

"People such as academics, teachers, scientists and many other professionals are often strikingly immature outside of their strictly specialist competence in the sense of being unpredictable, unbalanced in priorities, and tending to overreact."

So yes, childlike wonder and flexibility are good for learning new stuff, and tend to follow with a more dynamic society. The consequences of it are that people are going to be unbalanced, rash, irritable, and childish.

There is a guy I work with. He's in his mid-30s, and generally a nice guy. However at times (typically six or eight times a day) I want to scream at him, "GROW UP!!! Take some responsibility for what you're doing!!!" However, I don't. Now there are three 'maturity' issues at play here.
1) His lack of self-responsibility is immature (lack of responsibility)
2) My instinctive reaction is immature (ranting and raving like a kid)
3) My actions are mature (either nothing, talking to his manager, or talking to him professionally)

I bring this up not to prove my maturity (there are a lot of other cases that aren't so complimentary to me :-), but to illustrate what almost everyone has experienced.

In a modern workforce, I would expect that maturity equates fairly close to professionalism, and I can definitely say that I've seen a decline in professionalism in the last decade or so. Outside of the workplace, it's a bit trickier. People with kids who try to hard to be their kids' best friends and refuse to apply any discipline are a target, but it's a hard line to draw cleanly. Similarly, one poster mentioned that he and his wife have decided against having kids, because they're not done being kids themselves. This personally strikes me as a bit selfish (a fundamentally immature behaviour), but at the same time they seem remarkably mature in their immaturity.

At the base of it, I put a lot of the blame on pop culture and society. We venerate and idolise people who embody every negative aspect of immaturity (actors, rock stars, etc.) and naturally come to not only forgive but accept and rationalise their behaviour. At the same time, we know that getting stoned and trashing a hotel room is wrong, so we don't emulate them--however, the bar has already been set, and it's sitting in the mud. We have such a LOW standard of behaviour to exceed that an average eight-year-old is a more mature person than the stars who show up in the tabloids.

Society's final anti-maturity shot is the entire 'hide your age' industry. Makeup, surgery, and clothes are all designed to avoid aging, because aging reminds us of death. We're a culture so terrified of death that we'll spend billions to shove it under the rug. Unfortunately, that leads to consciously NOT acting like we think grown-ups should do, but rather as kids.

I could also mention a lawsuit-happy culture discouraging people from taking responsibilty for their own actions, but that would be another page of text, and this post is long enough already.

Maturity means responsibility. Taking responsibilty for your own life and your own actions, as well as acting responsibly and dealing responsibly with the actions of those around you. It is my personal belief that it doesn't necessarily preclude doing frivolous or foolish things when appropriate, but that historically it was never considered appropriate for adults to do such things. (Anyone remember Mary Poppins?) One exception has always been academics--the image of an absentminded or childlike genius professor is an old one indeed. In contemporary society, immature behaviour is allowed for all adults, and even encouraged. The new marque of maturity will be one who behaves in a mature and responsible fashion (a) when necessary, and (b) when desirable, but not necessarily (c) when not needed.

Maybe it's really a weakening of true maturity, but as long as (a) and (b) are achieved, I can happily deal with a society that has accepted (c).

Re:What is wrong with being child-like

[Pichu0102]

Adults do that too still. Just look at congress.

Create Immature Adults through Marketing

[SwedishChef]

You know, I believe you have got something here. Given the level of immaturity of the characters on "Friends", "Seinfield" and many other television programs combined with the behavior of the actors in various beer commercials, we may have lowered the bar for maturity. If the major media formats in our culture show examples of adult behavior that is, essentiallly, childish then who can blame the viewers for adopting those standards?

I'm reminded of an ex-girlfriend who seemed to me to over-react to situations. I was puzzled until I realized that she was acting as if she were a character on a television program; where drama is important. We may have a couple of generations now doing the same thing.

Nice work. :)

I agree wholeheartedly

[Weaselmancer]

As an adult, I am subject to a wider variety of feelings and emotions than a 6 year old. Being an adult is more subtle - we gain access to joys that a child couldn't even understand. When you're six, you know happy, sad, fear, hungry, tired. As an adult you also can experience bemusement, irony, sarcasm, terror, bliss, longing, melancholy, and a host of other things that make the experience of just living through your day more deep and meaningful. Your mental palette is larger. Yes, it means you can be hurt or suffer in larger ways than a child. But you can also rise above them in ways a child could not. The game is bigger, so the rewards are bigger.

And speaking of the palette, food is an excellent way of describing the difference. As a 6 year old, all you crave is candy. Big ugly blocks of sugar. As an adult, you're complex enough to tell the difference between good sushi and bad. Really expertly done fresh sushi with fresh ground wasabi and some nice sake on the side is sublime, and that's the joy of it, and a child could never understand it. Think of how many things there are like that.

Another good reason - look at what you would have to go through today. At the risk of sounding like an Auld Farte, think about how bad teenagers have it today. All the good music is gone. Pepsi decides what is cool these days. You have three choices basically. Stupid thumping gangsta rap whose only function is to shake your car's quarter panels, bubblegum crap pop, or Nu Metal where guys with long hair get up in front of the mike, blast the distortion and whine about their relationships.

And you can't do anything fun or dangerous in this bubble-wrap world we've made. As soon as one kid gets hurt doing something it gets outlawed or regulated past the point of any fun whatsoever. How many childhood memories do you have where you were experiencing both big fun and mild danger at the same time? Are their any stories you have about your childhood that you haven't told your parents yet because you don't want to give them a heart attack? Kids today will never have those kinds of vivid childhood memories. We've outlawed them.

If God All-Mighty came down from the clouds and told me he would be willing to make me a six year old again, I would politely decline. I've got it better now than I've ever had it, and I feel genuinely sorry for children born in this time.

Re:I agree wholeheartedly

[Thangodin]

Excellent post!

The subtleties of maturity beat the thrills of immaturity anytime. The world is a complex place, and I love the complexity of it. The best taste in life is bittersweet, with only enough sweetness to prevent the bitter from being bland. It's no surprise that diabetes is on the rise. People have lost the palate for strong tastes. Even fibre comes in a pill, as if eating raw oats and bran is some sort of trial too harsh for people to bear. The world is divided into simple primary colors and basic binaries: red and blue, left and right, liberal vs conservative. Only the caricatures that pass as media personalities fit into these categories. The world is just not that simple.

It is revealing to contrast the tone of public discourse 50 years ago to what it is today. Ronald Reagan abandoned formal rhetoric for folksy chat, and now we're stuck with it. G W Bush got elected by appearing to be just a regular guy--at some point, people forgot that you don't want just a regular guy as your leader, you want the best and brightest. Distrust of intellectuals is at an all time high, because it takes work to understand what they're saying. But democracy takes work, every single day.

I've always suspected that the main point of "family values" and all of these exhortations to "think of the children" are just scare tactics to turn the world into the largest nursery in history, where you cannot even have an adult conversation, and where kids aren't even allowed to play unsupervised. Can you imagine a childhood where you have to make "play dates," where it is no longer possible to just walk anywhere? Thanks to media scaremongering, parents see the world as a frightening place with a child molestor or Satanic cult member lurking in every playground. The fact is, your kids are about a hundred times as likely to get killed by a car as they are to be kidnapped. But that doesn't sell soap.

Even God has been turned into the cosmic wetnurse, who will rapture us up, clean our nappies, and dry our tears. ID promises us the fantasy of every child; that we are the center of the universe, that it's really all for us. Since you're saved by faith alone, you don't have to do jack, just show up at the mega-church for the show and listen to a postmodernist drivel which is equal parts fairy tale and new-age glurge. You gotta hand it to them, they know their market. Why stop at frying your pancreas with candy, when you can get diabetes of the soul too?

Re:I agree wholeheartedly

[Gnostic Ronin]

Well, I think part of the reason that adults don't grow up is that there aren't any real hardships to make them grow up.

We can give the political equivilant of "I'm gonna hold my breath 'til you give me my candy" -- because we aren't in very much real danger. We live in the first world, a world where "poor" doesn't mean digging for food in the trash, dysentery, or even a shack made of cobbled together materials. "Poor" means no plasma screens, no statilite TV, and Dial up internet.

We can waste time argueing about flag-burning and gay marriage because we really don't have that many serious domestic problems to be dealt with. Other nations would laugh at our battles. What -- we're "persectuted" because the Wal-Mart greeter doesn't say "Merry CHRISTMAS"? Okay, so exactly what is it called when a man can be beheaded for daring to not be a muslim? We think it's censorship because some jackass wants to ban the sale of M-rated games to 16 year olds? What about the http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/16/saudia12049 .htmSaudi teacher sentenced to 40 months and 750 lashes for "declaring listening to music, smoking, adultery, homosexuality and masturbation as permissible under Islam"?

The problem -- if you could call it that, keeping Americans and Westerners in general in a "childlike state" is that we don't have nearly as many problems as other people. We stay childlike because the hardships that force other people to grow up quickly just don't happen here.

Nonsense

[wytcld]

The faults of youth are retained along with the virtues, he believes. These include short attention span, sensation and novelty-seeking, short cycles of arbitrary fashion and a sense of cultural shallowness.

This is a bizarre list. In my fifties now, I can recall as a teenager having a much longer attention span. For instance, if I began reading a book in the evening I'd often stay up through most of the night to finish it. I don't do that any more. Sometimes I'll get that focused on a programming problem - but the young have all the advantage in attention span there too.

Cultural shallowness? Most cultural depth comes from youth. Many of the greatest works of the greatest classical composers were achieved while they were young. And all of the great musical advances and inventions of the 60s - aside from those of Ornette Coleman and Miles Davis - were accomplished by people in their twenties - many of whom had encyclopedic knowledge of the musics they were extending from.

Short cycles? Sure, invention can move quickly. But arbitrary fashion? Are long-cycle fashions less arbitrary? Should we more respect the whale-bone corsette than bell bottoms on boys? Were the centuries of wearing powdered wigs more "mature" than the several years of goatees and mullets?

And are we better off in life with no sensation? Would this psychiatrist prefer we were all comfortably numb? Figures. But I'd hardly call his the "mature" approach.

Easy Work Around

[ukemike]

There is a way you can re-experience the joys of childhood (and they are many) while maintaining the rich experience of adulthood.

Become a parent. Then spend lots of time with your children.

Re:Easy Work Around

[honkycat]

As kids get older they tend to appreciate having being treated as real people.

(I assume you meant 'having been treated'...)

This is definitely true. My father had a "second batch" of children when I was about 22 so I've had an opportunity to watch him parenting from an adult perspective. One of the things that he does REALLY well is to talk to babies and kids without baby-talking. He has real conversations that are somehow at their level, about things they're interested in.

He's also very in tune with their truly being small people, with complex feelings and viewpoints. One of the things that annoys him is when a parent tells an embarassing story about a young child while the child is in earshot. I think he's quite right in his belief that kids are able to tell when they're being laughed at before they can really express that they feel embarassed.

I think paying attention to these things really does a lot to help kids develop, both emotionally and intellectually. My little siblings are two of the most articulate little kids I've ever seen. I think in large part this is because they've been exposed to "adult" talk since long before they could put syllables together. They've definitely been allowed to be kids, but they have also been given a lot of respect as humans. This is definitely something I hope to emulate when I become a father (in about 8 weeks... *gulp*).

Let me tell you a joke

[Moraelin]

Let me tell you a joke about nostalgia. Two veterans meet at some war-ending aniversary and have a little chat:

"Ah, do you remember when they captured us and took us to a concentration camp?"
"Oh yeah."
"And how they wanted to take us to the gas chamber?"
"Aw man, how can I forget that?"
"And then there was this bombing raid, explosions everywhere and we ran through a hole in the fence? And they chased us with dogs and we hid in the swamp for a week?"
"Oh yeah. Man, those were the good times."

Well, admittedly, childhood usually isn't _that_ bad, but still, everyone remembers the good parts, but never remembers the annoyances and frustrations. Or remembers some sanitized rose-tinted version of them. I suppose it must be some mechanism of the brain to stay sane.

But if I'm to really remember childhood, and without even going into the parts that were due to my parents being... well, completely unfit to be parents, it wasn't _that_ idyllic anyway.

E.g., take school alone. I could read since the age of 3. In fact, I could read and write in two foreign languages by the time I got into school. I could calculate a transformer or solve other physics problems up to that level. (I guess I must have asked something like "why is the sky blue?" and my parents, god bless their totally nerdy souls, gave me a physics book.) And yet there I was in school required to write a page of oblique lines or loops. Or to write a page worth of the letter "a". How boring is that?

And that's just one of many issues.

On the whole, I'll go and say I'm actually a _lot_ happier as an immature adult than I ever was as a child.

_Now_ I can actually do what I want. If I want a chocolate, I can go buy a chocolate. If I want to buy a doll, I can go buy a doll. (Or The Sims, which is one hell of a doll house simulator.;) If I want to stay up late playing with it, I can jolly well stay up and play with it. Back then I had a ton of people who knew better what I should be doing, what I should be thinking, what I should be saying, etc.

As for Calvin and Hobbes, or Winnie the Pooh, they're not written by a kid. They're written by an adult, and through rose-coloured nostalgia glasses _and_ from second-guessing the "enemy" at that. They see "man, this kid never listens to a word I say", or "man, he's throwing a tantrum again when I'm trying to teach him proper manners", and from there they go and paint some image of the kid being completely care-free and living in some imaginary wonderland. They don't however, see the frustrations like being treated like a brainless idiot. Or the frustration of that "teaching manners" meaning "Moraelin, say 'hello' to the nice lady?"... again... in front of 10 strangers and 2 of my friends. Or about a hundred other little issues.

In fact, I'll go and say that all that seeing the kid as a care-free brainless _idiot_ is just... selective confirmation. People start with the preconceived idea that the kid is inherently retarded and unable to ever comprehend adult logic, and from there remember every detail that confirms that, but conveniently forget the details that don't. Or acts like they're some one-in-a-million occurance that's surely just a freak accident.

And let me also say that a lot of the time, "adult logic" _isn't_. Adults are just as good as kids at rationalizing backwards from what they'd like, to some half-arsed unconvincing "facts" to justify it with. E.g., they start from some pre-conceived wish, like that they want to go camping or fishing (bonus points when it's just to fit in some group, not because they actually like it), and from there work their way backwards to some half-arsed justification, like that shivering in a tent in the rain builds character or that fishing is some kind of valuable RL skill. (How? What for? Exactly in which situation can one possibly catch enough fish with a fishing rod to support a family that way?) Even when they actually do have a point there, they're so convinced that you're an idiot and can't possibly