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Betting Against Online Gambling
conq writes "BusinessWeek.com has an article looking at the possible consequences if anti-gambling legislation is passed. From the article: 'Just how much of a setback is the proposed legislation for the $12 billion industry? While online gambling companies generate half their sales from U.S. gamblers, the industry is operated almost completely by companies beyond the reach of U.S. regulators. [...] It's a lot of smoke and mirrors and misstatements.'"
...that there's nothing else important going on the country or the world, so Congress can address the dire scourge of online gambling.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
So, will this outlaw all those internet ads where I can win something by spanking the Monkey? Or was that punching the Monkey? Maybe that's why I never win..
So the gambling sites will move offshore. The banks and credit card companies will not want to lose that massive
source of transactions, and will find a way to continue those transactions. There is no explicit restriction on them.
There's too much money at stake here.
...I'm glad I've managed to stay away from gambling online. If I had ever gotten into it, I probably wouldn't have this PC and net access to comment on this article. The two states I've lived in my whole life, Oregon and Nevada, are #2 and #1 in gambling addiction per capita (too lazy to provide links, but google it if you'd like) respectively. I've seen many friends who have wrecked their lives with gambling, and have come damn close to wrecking my own.
I'm sure this bill will be denounced on slashdot, but I really don't think of it as *that* evil. Sure, there are plenty of legitimate online gambling sites, but many of them are there solely to rip you off of your hard earned dollars, and often times people (unfortunately) cannot tell the difference. Maybe, just maybe, our elected legislators have our best interest in heart this time.
I mean in this day, is anyone really more than a few hours away from an Indian casino? Do you really need 24/7 access to gambling? It might be that the very few hours of distance is all that saves a lot of people from their self...
See also: Prohibition.
The way I see it, the congress is worried about the billions of Dollars that's sipping out of the country. Online gambling will always be there, so if we don't want all the money to end up in hands of tropical islands, why not just vote for legalizing this industry instead?
I doubt the republicans are doing this to "save us" from the evilness of gambling. After all, the vast majority of all Americans gamble responsively. Blaming the industry too much would be like blaming television for murderers becoming who they are (read: artificial violence). If people have a problem with spending money, it will end up in pockets of other people no matter what, simply because gambling is only one way to canal it.
So once again, my point is, the US authorities should look at options of keeping as much of the industry within the US as possible instead of messing with peoples' habits and hobbies.
Full Tilt
( Government-Approved Gambling Association of America. heh, why not? )
If the bill is essentially toothless against offshore gambling operations, maybe they'll at least introduce criminal penalties against US customers of said operations.
It'd serve two very important purposes:
1: Make sure the "tax for people that failed math" has a shot of helping the US govt, instead of some offshore unamerican causes.
2: Help gambling addicts by fining and jailing them until they recover. It's a principle proven to work well with the War on Drugs, so it's really a no brainer to extend the concept here.
There is no downside.
Jon Stewart on net neutrality and online gambling.
They want to put more and more Casinos in suburban areas and in the city of Philadelphia if I recall correctly (all this pushed by the former mayor of Philly Ed Rendell, a democrat, I believe). They talk about all these wonderful things it will bring it like jobs and more revenue. What the politicians don't mention loudly is that they are also proposing giving the casinos a big break on property taxes, that casinos have to make money to pay revenue (hint: it doesn't come from the good of their heart), and the crime rate going up. It's not like they're planning to put up a technology center or something positive.
But this bill isn't about protecting people, it's about protecting revenue. Afterall, if you can sit in the comfort of your own home wasting your money on gambling, why go out and do state-sanctioned gambling (lottery tickets and casinos). What you can't tax, you ban.
BTW, for gambling proponents endorsing building Casinos as a public good, just go to Atlantic City (hey, if you are a Senior Citizen, just take the bus for minimum cash, like $10, and they give you that and a little more back in slotmachine tokens - hell, you can probably cash your social security checks there too), and look at the streets directly behind the casinos. One street behind the Boardwalk, it becomes a total dump. All show, no substance.
All of the major card networks (VISA, Mastercard, AMEX, etc.) in every region now have a strict policy that online gaming sites require a valid gaming/casino licence from the jurisdiction they are based in, and must specify the gaming merchant category code 7995 in every authorization request. Merchant banks that do not enforce this rule with their gaming merchants risk losing their card membership. No bank wants to loss its VISA or Mastercard membership. Card networks are also banning the use of quasi-cash merchants from being used to hide gaming transactions.
If the US wants to stop its population from using online gaming sites, all that they have to do is dictate that the issuing banks in their country simply decline all authorization attempts which contain the 7995 category code. The US banks can also look at the merchant country codes, so that it can allow US based gaming sites like horse betting (which is legal in American but illegal in many countries) to be authorized, while still declining the overseas gaming sites.
Problem solved, since the vast majority of people using any type of Internet commerce, including online gaming, pay directly or indirectly with their credit cards.
I am sick and tired of politicians in one country expecting to regulate Internet activity of other countries, using broad extra-territorial legislation. This is impossible for online merchants and banks to enforce, especially since many countries have laws that contradict each other. Should we ban online sales of electronics globally, because they are illegal in North Korea? What about alcohol that is illegal in some Islamic countries? What about mediciations, mod chip, etc.? Even non-physical online software and services, including proxy agents, news & political websites, adult entertainment, etc. are banned in many countries.
Does this affect the game 'Project Entropia', where people can make tons of money playing the best video game ever? I would compare PE to professional sports or the CPL, and not to those online poker sites, since skill seems to matter more for making money than luck. Gaming skill, in particular. On a similar note, what about games such as WOW, where gold is traded for dollars, albeit against the game's policy? Playing WOW or PE could earn a player money, or they could purchase money and lose it. Are the modern MMORPGS considered gambling, just PE, or only the poker and sports betting sites???
What happened to the free exchange of money for goods and services? Are people no longer free to trade money with each other, and with companies that offer 'gambling' services? Regardless of location, Capitalism is all about trade. The government should not be able to limit trade between people and companies, as long as that trading is voluntary, regardless of what kind of company it is. If a person is too stupid to not spend all their money gambling, perhaps that is economic evolution? And perhaps if people were free to trade money for any goods and services, money would not be so tight for most people, and most people would not have to work all the time to earn enough to 'get by'.
While the government is good at stopping large financial transfers, it's lousy at stopping small ones. So if they really want to crack down on gambling, they'll have to go directly after the ads too.
...
But if you can't run gambling ads, I think a lot of current and potential future sports information sites will be in trouble. There are only so many retro jerseys their advertisers can sell
Odd though it may sound, the big losers from a real crackdown on internet gambling might be fantasy sports players.
And nobody's explained to me why internet gambling is worse than lottery tickets, which are just another tax on the poor and uneducated, and are actually promoted by government-funded advertising.
To err is human. To forgive is good system design.
I wonder when law makers will wake up & realize they're betting on a game of whack-a-mole with trying to control gambling.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
I'll offer 2 to 1 that by this time next year, this industry will be even larger than the 12 billion it is now. Takers?
Whenever governments try to block capital flows from consumers to producers, money finds a way. Albeit, with some friction, but it gets there in the end.
This reminds me of the invention of Swaps; a financial instrument originally devised by banks as a means to provide a service helping multinationals circumvent capital controls imposed by the British Government (warning: PDF).
I can see the formation of off shore entities that will sell a "service" to US consumers. Whatever the the facade (e.g., email, picture viewing, etc) of this service, the real purpose will be to enable US based consumers of online gambling to move offshore; by paying for the "service" the cash is then off governments radar.
Visit your favourite on-line gambling site and the funds you used to purchase the "service" are now magically available, minus some "friction", of course, to fund your gambling. Later another "service" would be used to repatriate funds back into the US.
There are loads of other mechanisms I can think of to get around this stupid law. Of course the government will find it necessary to establish policing actions to find / stop this avoidance, thus screwing the taxpayer a second time ("No, you CANT gamble online AND you have to pay me to make sure you DONT gamble online)".
Another reason I'm glad I don't live and pay taxes there anymore.
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There's something inherently funny about seeing Sen. Stevens remarks about how the internet is made of "tubes" on a site called YourTube...
Um...It's not the government's job to save people from themselves. It's the government's job to keep other people from hurting you, and to keep you from hurting other people. If the gambling sites are just ripping people off, that's a problem that should be addressed ("other people hurting you"). If the sites actually do pay out at random, then they're as legitimate as brick-and-mortar casinos and shouldn't be illegal.
This bill IS evil in that it attempts to take freedom away from responsible adults. Some people are alcoholics, but that doesn't mean getting a drink in a bar should be illegal. In the same way, some people are gambling addicts, but that doesn't justify making on-line gambling illegal. Addicts should find help for themselves.
For people with a gambling addiction: Firefox has an "adblock" feature that can help. Block "http://www.mypersonalonlinecasino.com/*" and on-line gambling is no longer available to you.
Finally, for the gambling addict who stayed away from on-line gambling: props to you. Your strength in overcoming your problem daily is a testament to your character. I wish you the same happy and full life I wish for the rest of the world.
The governments will have to make a deal with the inline gaming industry, in the same way the alcohol and porn industries have done. There is too much money in the industry and the user base has the broad spread of demographics to make any politician beat a fast retreat.
What would they have called it if it wasn't dangerous?
Posting ridiculous nonsense is annoying (that's why it's called posting ridiculous nonsense).
Seriously, there is something important. The war in the middle east, and this law has everything to do with it. I myself am somewhat sympathetic to the war, but the simple honest truth is that the government simply can't pay for it. Really, Congress could care less about people who are down and out from gambling, but they care alot about people escaping the overbearing and unjust taxes by moving their money to offshore tax havens. This has nothing to do with gambling, and everything to do with attempting to contain that flow of money (and tax revenue).
PS: the war on drugs is used in a similar way.
Anyone wanna bet if this legislation goes through? I'll put down $10 right now that it doesn't! Any takers?
We have lost our ability to chose on online gambling. Because congress had surrendered some of our sovergnty to the WTO. Some countries claim they export online gambling and claim that we must import it.
Folks, one hell of a lot of people like playing poker and gambling on the internet. Unfortunately, the rake from those games is ALL going offshore. Take note that this bill made it through the house but is not going to be matched in the senate.
This is just a warm-up. Legalizing online gambling so the feds and US corps can get their cut is the real goal. Ask yourself: why aren't the major US gaming corporations being extremely vocal on this issue?
Once again, The Right brings up an issue to legislate on moral grounds (gaining votes) only to collect behind the scenes (gaining $$$) when they later fulfill the interests of the corporations.
"This wound is beyond my ability to heal. We need Elvis medicine!"
Good to see its not just me that accidently calls it YourTube. Its YouTube technically.
So all the online gamblers switch to day trading , which is entirely legal, with the inevitable result of a total f**k up of the US sharemarket.
Anything that stimulates the pleasure circuits can be chemically addictive. The only difference is that between external (drug) stimulation and internal (reward center) stimulation.
The effect of neural programming is identical.
As soon as a gambler's money ceases to be an expense (like movies or gaming software), and he begins to hope or depend on a lucky streak to solve his financial problems, the gambling becomes an evil addiction. Mathematical ability is not the issue, gambling addiction is irrational. It is a spiritual problem that puts hope of financial salvation in an eventual win.
Sometimes people with excellent math ability can win consistently at games like BlackJack. In my opinion, this is wrong also. An honest casino is a form of entertainment. They would be up front about the house percentage built in to all the games. The card counter again turns gambling into an income rather than an expense. Often successfully, to be sure, but it is like a quick change artist robbing a movie theatre.
In real life, of course, most Casinos seek to exploit gambling addiction for profit, rather like Tobacco companies exploiting nicotine addiction. Casinos with such sleazy motives in turn create a sleazy atmosphere around the Casino. The campaigns to ban gambling have the same motivation as the campaigns to ban smoking.
There have been some attempts to create wholesome Casinos. The main idea is that you buy tokens which cannot be redeemed for cash (same idea as pinball machines), so there is no temptation to look to the games as income. Such a Casino would probably qualify as "not gambling" under anti-gambling laws. Of course, playing this form of "gambling" is like smoking nicotine-free tobacco.
When Congress passed the CAN-SPAM Act, it made spam extinct, disappeared from every inbox. Now they'll wave a magic law and the world's online gambling compulsion will also disappear. The US is always much safer when Intarwebs experts like Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) are protecting us from evil.
>/SNARK<
Of course that law is BS. It won't even stop outed Republican hypocrites like Bill Bennett from gambling. It will get Christaliban to pull the lever (or touch the screen) for Republicans this November, along with Bush's threatened stemcell veto. As usual, its real power will lie in all the other unrelated corporate welfare clauses stuck under its figleaf that pass in stealth, while the mass media talks about only its sexy title.
--
make install -not war
A lot of people seem to think that since this internet gambling is hosted overseas, that therefore these companies are immune from the legal consequences of a US law. Not true. A State Attorney General or a Federal Prosecutor could bring a lawsuit against the company in the United States and gain jurisdiction over the company since it is doing business in the US. Once it has obtained a judgment in the U.S., the prevailing party would contact the government where the company is physically located and notify it that it has a judgment, using letters rogatory or treaty provisions to attach and execute on the US judgment in the foreign country. It is complicated, and often takes a few years, but it is effective. How do I know? I've done it.
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in mud. Soon, you realize the pig is dirty, and he likes it.
They already do, they monitor all Swift transactions already suposedly to spot money going to terroists, organized crime, drugs its just an 'if statment' away from tracking payments to online gaming companies.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
I applaud our government for getting tough on these criminal activites.
I know that some of you may think that it is your right to do what you wish with your money. But should we really have rights that could be harmful to some who excercise them? Hopefully this is only the first of recent steps that will lead to the elimination of wasteful and dangerous pass times from this nation.
Understandably, some would argue that there are many more things in this country that are dangerous. And I agree, these in time should be eliminated too.
Ciggarette companies sell heavily taxed items that WILL kill everyone who uses them, given enough time. Drug companies advertise all of there newest concotions on the easily scared. Pornography focuses on the sick and dark nature of humans, while exposing children to the danger of sex. Condom companies sell a product which makes sex with multiple partners seem reasonable and appealing to those who would otherwise, most likely, be spending their time doing things that will help the nation. Sex should be eliminated almost entirely, I have abstained, why can't everyone else? Car companies have ruined the atmosphere. Motorcycles are just crazy. Can you believe that we even let big strong dogs in our houses, without leashes?! How many lives have been claimed by dogs? More than zero, and anything more than zero cannot be tolerated.
Still, there are those that don't see the harm in online gambling. Most people have never tried it. But they will. What is stopping these online gambling sites from coming into your home, and forcibly taking all of your money? Is it a danger that we can really ignore?
Right now there are thousands of online poker professionals who make a living, often a very financially substantial living, playing poker from the comfort of their own home. They should be stopped imediately, so that they can stop making a lot of money for themselves, and start making far less money from the companies in America that have been set up to help America. Americans owe it to the rest of us to stop their search for alternative ways of living and conform to what the reasonable few in Washington have decided is good. Who could disagree with that? Who could disagree with a country by Americans, for Americans?
I believe that someday, we, as people, will come together and weed out everything that is bad and harmful so that we can all live lives filled with the pleasure of knowing that nothing bad will ever happen. Except old age.
You take it, I don't want it...
I bet operators of a UK based company, accidently doing bets with Americans, will probably be flying to the land of the free, in orange jump suits and leg shackles, so fast it'll make their head spin.
I recall some programs available that would do this for you. Only idiots would do this and not expect to lose money.
..........FULL STOP.
Obviously, the only thing to do is to somehow catch it when American-based credit card companies are exchanging funds between an American and an online gambling company.
But how do you tell if the company is an online gambling company or not?
Well, the credit card companies might know, but if a company is overseas it's entirely possible that the CC company might not know all the details of the business. It may be listed with the CC company as a business that does something else entirely, and not even necessarily be lying about it (since the last time I checked, CC companies only want to know what is a merchant's _primary_ business, not all of the details behind every single transaction they ever do).
So... how do you tell if any particular CC transaction is connected to online gambling or not?
Ultimately, you can't. So the only thing left to do at this point is to impose fines on any and all credit card transactions with businesses other countries, regardless of what business they are actually in.
I don't use online gambling sites myself, but I am _SO_ curious to see how this whole thing plays out.... (like a traffic accident, you can't look away, even when you want to).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
They could just make it legal to gamble at State-side hosted servers, and illegal to gamble at out of nation servers. Keeps the money in the US.
What is up with the recent explosion in poker-related TV advertising, "celebrity poker" shows and poker spam?
Back during the cold war I remember hearing that the communists were playing chess (long-term strategy) while the US was playing poker (fake-out the sucker).
Don't forget that all non-long-term stock-market investments are a zero-sum game. Actually, less-than-zero as there are taxes and fees involved. Any profit produced comes either from someone who lost that much, or from the Ponzi effect.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
You argued that lotteries are less insidious than some other forms of gambling because one loses money more slowly. Good point. Thanks.
Also, part of the payoff is in the weekly drawing. You can get days of "entertainment" for the price of a lottery ticket. Again that's a dampener.
Hmm. That all makes sense -- but wouldn't sports betting be just as "benign" as lotteries?
To err is human. To forgive is good system design.
Domestic Casinos are regulated. The states with casinos have "Gaming Commissions" to keep the casinos (more or less) honnest. When you go to a Nevada casino, you know that the Nevada Gaming Commission has examined the slots and certified the dealers and operators. If a casino is consistantly fraudulant, the Gaming Commission will shut it down and put the criminals in jail. You have no such assurance online. Additionally, on-line games are easier to rig than physical games. You can watch a dealer and see the cards at a casino. But you can never see how the game was progammed in the computer in [insert shady third-world country with lax law-enforement].
Gambling online is like giving your credit card number to the Nigerians or Russians. In fact, it probably IS giving your credit card number to the Nigerians or Russians. There might be some honnest on-line casinos, but you can never be sure.
This law is just as much a GOOD THING(tm) as any other anti-fraud law on the books, because it will help protect a percentage of the guilable from being duped.
I think that Congress is a tool of the brick-and-mortar casino lobby.
Why go out to gamble when you can gamble online in the comfort of your own home? I think that the physical casinos are trying to use the government to axe their competition.
It's typical 'big business likes big government because big government has the power to regulate and legislate in favor of big business and against the competition'. This is why we need to get more libertarians in office to limit the size, scope, and power of the government back to the state originally set forth in the Constitution.
Libertas in infinitum
A society in which the government keeps its citizens from making mistakes is hardly a free society. Liberty and freedom means the freedom to make choices, good or bad, and then the consequences that come with those choices.
It's the unfortunate slippery slope of governmental expansion.
Libertas in infinitum
I and mommy bet on the horses a day ago. We didn't win but it was fun. Btw, what the hell is going on with slashdot's new design? I'm seriously considering not going here anymore cuz the design is so extreme. Bring back the old, please! (if u know a setting to get it back, please advice!)
I won't miss the source of most attempts at pop-under, pop-over, loophole-seeking advertising jerks. Most of their offshore-ness is a joke with the real companies still in the US or Canada behind their screening island of non-extradition.
And none of them responded when I sent in my résumé.
So die die die!
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Because - as many have mentioned - gambling itself isn't illegal. At the point where you have to screw around making offshore accounts etc etc, most people would just skip the time and trouble that represents and head down to gamble in their local government-sanctioned money pit. It's not like prohibition or "the war on drugs" where the material is entirely illegal (well, war on drugs has some legal ones), so people can still legally practice/fill their vices.