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Eureka! Archimedes Revealed
pin_gween writes "The Mercury News has an AP wire that shows science uncovering history. 800 years ago a monk scrubbed the text off a goatskin parchment to write prayers. Nothing unusual there, except the parchment contained writings from a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest. Now scientists are using x-rays, generated by a particle accelerator, to cause tiny amounts of iron left by the original ink to glow without harming the delicate goatskin parchment. It takes 12 hours to scan one page, then the information is posted online."
Will overlook the Christian Monk scrubbing scientific things away for religion to say this is really cool. I wonder how many other documents were similarly reused for $whatever. Wonder what it all says...
So, in other words, you could say that Archimedes had the first post. :) Sorry, could not resist.
But I want it NOW!!
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Well, that, and the fact that some monk dude scrawled his love letters to god all over the bloody text!
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
NPR, because reading is dumb: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story Id=5583668
Pain is God trying to be funny. That's how out of touch It is. -- Jeff Lint
4 Carrots
2 Pints of milk
Brithday card for aunt Mavis
Like an intarweb version of the turin shroud.
I heard an interview with one of the scientists on the CBC. He said that there was possibly some new stuff that we didn't know about. In particular, there seems to be a section which tries to figure out how many different ways there are to solve a problem. So it seems that Archimedes was wondering about combinotorics.
Although this is a cool discovery, it would have been cooler if the lost writings were by a Greek intellectual whom we have less information about, say Heraclitus. Well, there is always the possibility that this technique could be used to recover other "lost" texts.
Philosophy.
...except the parchment contained writings from a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest.
:-)
The object in question IS the palimpsest, not the text hidden on it. At least NPR got that much right
I rather doubt he did it because he had anything against science. But because back then materials were a bit scarcer than our modern 'go to the store' times of plenty.
This is a fairly obscure term, so most non-specialists don't know it. A "palimpsest" is a piece of parchment that has been re-used. This particular palimpsest contains stuff by Archimedes; and so it is called "the Archimedes Palimpsest." It is not "a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest," it is THE Archimedes palimpsest.
I can't wait to see what the first, original layer of Archimedes' Palimpsest, the one Archimedes erased for blanks, contained. Maybe we'll have to backdate some of that "Archimedean" knowledge to someone else.
--
make install -not war
Finally I can use my LIS nerdiness on slashdot, bastion of computer, science, and math nerds.
The summary says "Nothing unusual there, except the parchment contained writings from a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest," using the term palimpsest incorrectly. By calling it "a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest," the summary implies that Archimedes wrote something--a Palimpsest--which was then copied and found on this random scrap of parchment.
In actuality, a palimpsest is a parchment already inscribed where the original ink was scraped off for reuse. Parchment, being the skin of a calf, sheep or goat, was in the Middle Ages very expensive (there is an argument that the Gutenberg revolution was fuelled more by cheap paper then by the printing press, but I digress). It was not discarded, but often reused by monks in Medieval scriptoria.
Many works from antiquity, once thought lost, are found serendipitously through palimpsest, many of them pagan works overwritten in favour of Christian ones. So, what we have found is a palimpsest of a manuscript copy of Archimedes, not a copy of Archimedes' palimpsest
I mean, we're lucky that he wrote on it. How many ancient writings could we find if someone will look in that monastery's latrine? I bet a lot of ancient texts went to clean some holy man's impurities. After all, it's just pagan writings. Maybe this is the source of the Muslim fear of the Koran being placed on/in toilets?
Why are women so complicated? Find out how little I know here.
"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days, bribery and corruption
are common, children no longer obey their parents and the end of the
world is evidently approaching." --Archimedes goatskin, 210 B.C.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Aren't they circumventing a technological protection system? And this particle accelerator is a "technological device that facilitates the circumvention of access control or copy controls". And then, in typical warez fashion, the pirated content is then disseminated on teh evil intarweb!
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you! That otherwise reputable scientists could be party to such a heinous act - oh the horror! The black helicopters must be dispatched after these miscreants forthwith!
Let's go for a (+5:insightful). How come one of the first posts to this story is a (Religion verses science) instead of a (historic practicality versus wasteful pride)? That's more insightful because the past is the past and doesn't affect me as much as say modern mores and behaviours.
The scanner I had connected to my 386 back in 1989 took even longer to do its thing, and then it was another few hours before the pics made it to the BBS's pr0n section via my 1200 bps modem. Ah, progress!
I had a bible on vellum made by some printing company called Gutenberg, but some asshole called Martin Luther scribbeld all these corrections over it, so I used it to light the fireplace.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Since it was a prayer book, nobody dared
Well, why do you think those ages were "dark" in the first place? It was because they destroyed scientific writings to record prayers. You are inverting cause and effect here.
Dark ages will cease to exist when people have more respect for scientific works than for prayer books.
chmod 711
If there's one thing that drives me nuts about science these days is that there seems to be such an effort to maintain a hard line between the academics and the "public"...
Admittedly, they could be buried deep in the website somewhere were I coudn't find them... or, maybe they are still working on official translations and don't want to put anything that's inaccurate on the site, but I doubt it- Instead, the passages the translated probably sound boring and so they'll publish it in obscure science journals- All the public will hear about (I fear) is "Look! We're so cool for recovering the pampliset!"
True, they are cool for translating this thing, I agree- But why not give the public a better pathway into understanding the meaning of this find by showing us the money? Would it really kill them? Maybe we, the public, can appreciate the inherent value of even some obscure, boring-sounding passages?
I have the same complaint about PBS and the recent special on "String Theory"- These science programs (which are admittedly better than nothing) work so hard to be accessible that they put a subconscious barrier between "average people" and "scientists" that I think becomes self defeating to the advancement of science- A PBS program on String Theory would be far more awesome if there was an attempt made to make the program a gateway into the science, giving a few basic formulas and some feeling for the real science. Sure, the formulas might seem a bit boring and basic and maybe some folks won't take the mental effort to try to follow along... but a small peek "under the hood" (even if you don't understand it) would still be far more interesting than a bunch of bland generalizations that just tells you they don't think people really care about the important details. </rant>
Mod parent down. I hadn't RTFA before writing that comment and it seems that I was mistaken.
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
That would be a valid argument for not deleting a hard drive that had belonged to Stephen Hawking. In my own hard drive, any file I delete to replace with another leaves a message to the future about which things are considered important today.
The problem with religious people is that they consider that anything is inferior when compared to religion. A text written by one of the most outstanding scientists of antiquity being deleted by an unknown medieval monk is an excellent argument against religion in general. Think if some student of physics deleted the original manuscript of one of the books in the Bible to write a simple exercise in mechanics.
This period was well in the dark ages, saving old stuff wasn't the goal or even seemed that valuable.
As I mentioned in another post, that's exactly the reason why those ages were "dark". They had the wrong idea on which information is valuable. By ignoring this world and concentrating instead on another future life, they created a period of one thousand years of some of the worst suffering humanity has ever seen.
I can just see my parents employing Reverse XRF Calcium imaging on all my 20 year old report cards to detect those F's that I cleverly transformed into B's. They're going to be soo mad I'll get a beating for sure.
Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately attributed to ignorance. -Napoleon
The news event behind this article does seem familiar, though. But I can't recall where else it appeared. Still, great stuff.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Where does Goatse come in to the picture?
I listened to an NPR story on this, a few days ago. I must say that the whole idea behind the science of revealing palimpsests is really neat and interesting. It is a shame that wonderful thoughts have been covered over (including paintings and music manuscripts), but it has happened, and the most important thing now (in MHO) is to rediscover the treasures lost.
Some great paintings, writings, and music manuscripts were covered by their own artists/writers, not just by others. One should, in my opinion, remember to knock the artist/writer on the head with a stick - before they destroy their own work. As for those who re-used materials for their own use... well, I don't really know how I feel about that...
In short, the latest imaging techniques are astounding. I am looking forward to more discoveries of palimpsests in the future!
A Passionate Independent Musician
What you say is true, for the Catholic church, and (unfortunately) may churches today. However, there are many of us Christans who follow in the footsteps of those who were also burned at the stake, tortured and killed by this "Christianity" you speak of. Just remember, just because someone calls them self a Christian, does not mean they follow the commands and wishes of Jesus Christ.
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
(Yes, I hate religion)
But apparently you love Deadwood.
Archimedes revealed? He had already done his best science work naked.
"Think of it, kids, if there weren't for christianity, we'd already have settled 10 planets, 5 of which extrasolar."
Count your blessings. Without Christianity, you wouldn't exist. Think about it. Sure, there would be people here, but would you, me, or anyone else on the planet today exist? No, so don't get all hot and bothered thinking you're being cheated out of some hot alien sex.
Fuck off, bigot. You're just as bad as Christians who try to force their religion on you, unlike the vast majority of them who don't.
FC Closer
Yes - read the Scholarship section on the project web page. For example, http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org/scholarship_ne tz2.html which shows that Archimedes knew about Infinity and used it in a proof. The Greeks were fascinated by large numbers - questions like "can you count the number of grains of sand on all the beaches of the world?" - but it was thought they did not have the concept of actual infinity. The palimpsest shows that this was known some 2000 years ago, then forgotten for centuries.
For those who don't want to listen, Nova had an hour-long documentary on the Archimedes' Palimpsest [PBS Nova site].
It was shown earlier this year about 4 months ago.
Cheers,
Tai
that P=NP.
Look at this url, from their "the Archimedes Palimpsest" Page (off of the home page of TFA): http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org/images/imaging _g5.gif
Now, oh fellow slashdotters, have a look at this lovely cube, and notice that it's top surface *is a map*. Okay, we here know that scanning from satellites can use techniques such that 'hiding under a tree' is preschool to the powers that be, but have you ever seen an image prove it so extremely viscerally? More lay people could use to see this image!
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
...What did Archimedes Plutonium have to say about all this?
DNRTFA
Before enlightenment - Code C, read Usenet, play NetHack. After enlightenment - Code C, read Usenet, play NetHack.
this is a dupe... http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/05/21/23020 8.shtml?tid=126&tid=14
Are you fucking retarded? (This is a serious question.)
Interesting how the church is given credit for maintaining education and preserving knowledge through the middle ages. And in spite of the Christians burning the Royal Library of Alexandria.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
But why should Archimedes give everyone execute rights to his writing?
and to be honest I was a bit underwhelmed. I missed the first few minutes, so maybe there was something more interesting going on there. I was hoping at the end when they revealed the page they'd been working on, they might actually translate some of what was on the page, for those of us who don't speak ancient greek.
This is from an assyrian stone tablet, circa 2800 bc... Puts things in perspective, doncha think ?
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Yes, but will they find his lost writings about quantum gravitation?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Yes, indeed, just like his long lost proof of the Riemann Hypothesis...
When they vote for Bush and support a terrorist state such as Israel, they are forcing their religion on everyone.
Actually... nobody knows where the fuck it came from.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
Some other cool info on this story was covered on a episode of PBSs NOVA.
Considering how bad the Dark Ages were, and what people in Greece had before then, he probably had a point.
Just thing of it -- you can't delete a doc from parchment either without some CSI guy scanning it back in.
Considering how bad the Dark Ages were, and what people in Greece had before then, he probably had a point.
And the end of Greece to boot.
Table-ized A.I.
"Yup, them crazy, dumb kids don't know up from down, spend way too much time playing games, dancing around, getting drunk, having loose sex, and are bringing down everything we worked so hard for to wrack and ruin...."
...though it would take about 500 more years for the empire to actually fall!
[wry grin]
I don't remember which philosopher it was (Seneca?) but he pretty much expressed the above sentiments about what he lamented as the unthinking, reckless youth of his time, complaining at length that they were obssessed with pleasure-seeking at the cost of thinking and contributing to the greater good. He concluded that all was lost, and that civilization would decline and collapse.
The civilization he was referring to was none other than the Roman Empire. Admittedly, his prediction proved to be correct
Personally, I'd argue that he was right, but for the wrong reason -- it's all too common for older generations to look down upon and condemn the young, usually for no other crime than the fact that the newer generations are different and do things their own way. Then there's Arthur C. Clarke's take on the old-versus-young rivalry: "...the old are often insanely jealous of the young." (The Sentinel)
I suspect that more than a few of us here have similar feelings on the issue, which probably explains the use of phrases such as "the Bad Old Days" and "the Dark Ages".
"All hands, BRACE FOR IMPACT!"
Argh damnit! Why does this lie keep getting perpetuated?
Seriously, try to find any source for that. Archimedes didn't even write like that (even translated). That 'quote' is only about 50 years old - not a few thousand. It's a urban legend that has been shown to be wrong over and over.
No, it would be like throwing away your copy of Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" because your copy is dog-eared and you can always order another from Amazon. Likely at the time there were mutliple copies of Archimedes' work around, and this one was considered unimportant for that reason (the parchment was literally more valuable than the information it contained).
What makes it important to us is that it happens to be the only copy which survived. The monk at the time had no way of knowing that his copy would be the only one which survived. Same reason there are only about a dozen Honus Wagner baseball cards in good condition. Nobody at the time knew that baseball cards would become a multi-million dollar collectibles industry, and that this particular card would be so valuable.
But might be useful using some form of automatic system to at least provide an "early draft" of what has been written. That would at least be useful in keeping the public informed on the goals of the project, and let's set so double the killer delete select all.
Funny you should mention christians not trying to force religion on me. The other day I was in the parking lot of an army post, and 3 of them attempted to convert me. Suffice to say, they failed, and became angry when I tried in return to share my view that Jesus did indeed exist, but should not be worshipped any more than any other schitzophrenic cult leader that existed at any other point in history. They did not seem to like this, as after i got to my car I was followed by a van with those 3, and 2 others in it - I assume from their same primitive cult known as "Christianity". Once I got on the highway they attempted to run me off the road, however they were not willing to scrap paint as I was, proving that I was much more capable of pushing them over into a support for an overpass. I'm not sure if they are ok or not, but I assume they have choosen to forgive, since such things seem so greatly apparent in their religion - or maybe they don't care if they are correct and are with their savior drinking some koolaid ready to move on to the next afterlife past the one they are presently in.
I do not think it is spelled the way you think it is spelled.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
Typical response by the religious types,
gloss over any rational thoughts with
mass produced prayers...
Remind you of any current political situations, worldwide?
its all Geek to me!
nah..older generations look down on them because the younger generation is full of idiots. The older they get, the more that are culled.
Have our scientists proven that only now?
Boy they better start finding solutions to world problems than proving archimeded revealed himself. Else they wouldn't get Bush funding...
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Who cares about this Arechemedes guy? What about the prayers the monk was trying to write? Doesn't he get some kinda credit here for being resourceful? I think these scientists are missing what's really important here...........as usual.
Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.
However, I also was not able to find any reference to this on snopes.com or any page describing how this is an urban legend.
Does anyone have any hard references either way?
Regardless of the veracity of this quote, I did find a page describing similar quotes about Socrates. So, even if the original quote isn't a true quote, there are certainly similar examples that show the same silly "kids these days blah blah blah" mindset.
Cow Cube
I think the pendulum has swung far back again from the other side when science shook up the theocracy. Yeah, so let them sit on their primary sources in their councils, not posting original copies online.
No no paranoid conspiracy.
mod = fnord. shake shake.
I thought you guys were talking about a Sci-Fi show :-(
No. Beyond Allegro not much worthwhile has found it's way into the public so see if YOU (ignorant loudmouth) can get me
the images of the orginal dead sea scrolls then. Other than that all you could do was mod me -1 troll, Wow.
impressive.
I have the impression you were going to look in the Barnes & Nobles esoteric new age section.
Then that is a problem with those particular people, and not "Christianity" as a whole. I'm not a religious person myself, but I've known many such people and none of them ever forced any belief on anyone. Your anecdote means nothing, and neither does mine. It just shows that you painting "Christianity" with that broad brush is just the same as "Christians" painting all of those who aren't "Christian" with the same brush.
FC Closer
if you want to hide what you wrote, you'll have to burn it to hide the evidence.
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
The poster makes it sound like Palimpsest was the title of a work by Archimedes.
In fact, Palimpsest is the technical term for a sheet of paper or parchment that contains several layers of writing one on top of the other, with the older layers often scraped blank with a knife before being overwritten.