Slashdot Mirror
New Super-sized Customer Database for Amazon?
dtjohnson writes "Amazon.com has applied for a patent to create
an online customer database which would allegedly contain
'massive amounts of intimate information about its millions of
shoppers,
including their religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity and
income.' From the article: "The database, which would
combine information disclosed voluntarily by
customers with facts gleaned from public databases, conceivably would
give Amazon a larger or more detailed profile of its customers than any
other retailer. Does this cross the privacy line or is it just
reasonable data gathering to make retail sales more responsive to
customer needs?"
Amazon's pending patent, which would bar competitors from replicating the company's process for gathering information
Let me get that right: If I have nothing to do with Amazon then no-one else can do the same thing? Looks like a small price to pay.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
Of course it crosses a privacy line, for me at least. When I shop at Amazon.com, I generally know what I want to buy already, and I very rarely pay any attention at all to Amazon's recommendations. I think this is a case of Amazon trying to over-extend itself; I shop Amazon for the low prices and the hassle free shopping experience, but if they do begin asking for too much information, I will have to take my business elsewhere.
wait, I thought Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Walmart, Credit card companies and the devil already built this database! Plenty of prior art.
When all else fails, try.
Let's see how he likes it. He probably likes furries and 18th century miniatures.
the mods may say you posted flamebait, but to me it's a flame that warms my heart. rock on, brother! --chebucto
I think there are some students that can claim prior art on this one:
l ?tid=158&tid=172&tid=146&tid=17
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/05/05/18/1410219.shtm
to think if they have a leak like AOL did.
...welcome our new, omniscient, Amazonian overlords.
Death by snu-snu!
Love the Third Amendment?
Yes it does.
Read radical news here
Why do we as consumers and citizens not have a problem with privacy data farming? Why are we not pushing for more anonymous ways of allowing companies to serve us better? Why do we allow this to be legal? I for one would like to see an anonymous ID system. Companies like Amazon can keep track of what you like, etc., without really knowing who you are. There would have to be a third party that correlates the two, which is independent, non-profit, well governed but not government based, and secure. People could then opt out using this one company instead of contacting 100s of companies. People can also tell this company what information they can store and what they cannot. People would still 'own' their privacy information. Other companies would merely get a token that represents you, but that cannot be traced to you except by this third party company. (Something like that anyway.)
The US government can infringe any patent - they just have to pay you when they do it. I guess Amazon is going to take over the world now. Oh well.
I pretend to know more than I really do by mooching off google and wikipedia.
It is not any more than days, countable by one hand's fingers that we hear another horror story about some institution losing their members'/customers' sensitive information, putting them in the risk of their identity beong stolen, I am not sure which gennius at Amazon though of this idea and thought it would fly. Also, even if you do it, at least do it in privacy of your company, so that the casual script kiddie will not be after the contents of database. But applying for a patent to run the "Big Brother" database, you publicly announce that "I have something of a great interest to those, who are after illicit financial gains". C'mon, let's be real. If this is not just a psychological honey-pot to invite hackers to test their security system, it is the most idiotic idae I have heard in a long time.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
Five years ago I might not have had a problem with a company trying to build a database like this. Free market - find what you will and whatnot. But unfortunately, I think any responsible company has to look at today's political climate, and consider the question: given an over-reaching, probably unconsitutional, and completely illegal, but well-enforced subpoena by the government, how much damage could our data do in the wrong hands? Are we prepared to fight such an action all the way to the supreme court if it comes to that? And what if the supreme court makes a corrupt decision? Sad, really.
Would be unaffected by this. Why? Because they somehow believe they are "above" the normal consumer and they are not affected by advertising, promotions, marketing gimmicks and other stuff that is the "science" of retail marketing.
So they have nothing to fear.
The rest of the world should expect a far better shopping experience from Amazon because they are going to know when to pitch the gay-pride book vs. the religious tome. This undoubtably will result is significantly better profits for Amazon and would likely be emulated as much as possible.
We might have a 20 year pause before the patent expires. But I would expect this sort of data to be marketed to all retailers once it is collected. Amazon might be able to sell it. Imagine walking into Target and picking up a shopping cart that reads your fingerprints from how you hold the handle. This then beams customized ads to the display on the cart advising you where the specials are that you are interested in.
Sexual orientation is a protected thing here in terms of discrimination. I see this as widely abused. It's the electronic form of the upside-down pink triangle used to designated suspected homosexuals during the holocaust.
In my town, it is illegal to keep this kind of information in an employee file, just like I can't keep track of who has a handicap and what it is (keep in mind drug addition is considered a handicap in most states--and one you ABSOLUTELY cannot ask about).
Abusive? Amazon has crossed a line so far that I will never make a purchase from them again. Makes me not want to purchase ANYTHING online again. Fuck off world-wide-web!
at this point I could care less what they do.
Of-course there is no way that a company can do something stupid and cause evil (pdf) with data like that.
You can't handle the truth.
The privacy issue aside, it is interesting to see how these companies are utilizing data mining to more accuratly predict a products 'success.' I mean will there come a day when a person creates the next widget and it can be determined within minutes that the widget will be best sold for $5.00 to maximize purchasers in the 18-35, married, hetro-sexual, non-christian, males, living within 12 miles of a large body of water, who rent a home, and own one vehicle. Then company 'A' can offer you X dollars for the widget patent based upon those numbers.
So going to write the open-source algorithm(s) for this?
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
F them. They will get nothing from me but fake info.
:)
Fight corporate facism with fake info!!!!!!
(Except for my cc number, of course. )
on privacy in order to make as much money as possible.
In EU, a private company can not ask which religion a person has. It is illegal and
most Europeans consider it a serious breach of privacy open to abuse.
As a matter of fact, in several EU states you are may deduct from the tax money paid to
a church. But many Jews does not do this because of Europe and the rest of the world's
long history of pogroms and persecutions[1]: similar registers was used to round up Jews
to murder. Europeans are aware of this, but Americans seems not.
[1] This, of course, does not excuse Israelswar crimes and human right violations.
In Finland it is generally illegal to to collect information about race, ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, union membership, criminal punishments, anything related to health and healthcare, sexual orientation or behaviour and the need for and use of social services.
In the USA the privacy legislation and attitudes about privacy by the politicians are not too good.
Republican Senator Rick Santorum: "It all comes from, I would argue, this right to privacy that doesn't exist in my opinion in the United States Constitution, this right that was created, it was created in Griswold -- Griswold was the contraceptive case -- and abortion. And now we're just extending it out. And the further you extend it out, the more you -- this freedom actually intervenes and affects the family."
So now in addition to my name, address, phone number, credit card number, purchase history, favorites, wish list and a list of every product that I've ever looked at on Amazon, every Amazon partner will have info about my "religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity and income."
Put a couple of part time programmers on the project, tie it in with my Google search history and the gov't's various Total Information Awareness databases and you hardly need me in the loop anymore.
Good thing a (Spanish, Puerto Rico)Local Law being proposed would make such practice ilegal
I love the feeling of a nigger shooting his hot beans in my ass
How do I polute the database with bogus information about me?
Based only on the blurb, this database would almost certainly be completely illegal within the EU (Directive 95/46/EG, unless it's obsolete).
Belief is the currency of delusion.
storing this amount of personal information for a fucking _shopping site_ is illegal in my country.
After Germany's experience during second World War, it became apparent that information about sexual orientation, religion, race and social ancestry are mostly used to do evil things. Hence in Germany there are laws that (in some circumstances) prohibit the use of such information.
How the hell can you patent a damn database?
Wondering whether or not this crosses the line is, in fact, quite irrelevant. None of the data elements mentioned in the report were gathered illegally, and theoretically, could be available to any enterprising company. We need to stop expecting companies to be any more respecting of our privacy than we have previously asked them to be.
They're using data which was voluntarily given to them by customers, and data which is publicly available on the web. If you really expect a company to not use any of this type of information for marketing purposes, you're being exceptionally naive.
The information is available, is completely legal to use, and some of it was even voluntarily given directly to Amazon by it's customers. The only thing which could ever prevent anything like this from happening in a case like this or at least limit it's use, would be to pass new laws limiting the usage of such information. Or, just don't voluntarily give information to companies if you don't want them to use it to market to you.
...
Haven't censuses been doing this for centuries?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
"voluntarily" give all this information to Amazon anyway? (I'm talking about CORRECT information!) Unfortunately, probably tons of people. Too many folks are way too eager to spill their guts to anyone who asks. Sad.
Perhaps they are spending their money in the wrong place. Amazon has made a complete mess of their site and I don't think any database with a gazillion amount of information is going to improve that experience.
If they wan to get people to shop, have a clear site that's not cluttered to the rim with crap. I don't need to see 15 of the same product from 15 different places. Just show me one at a good price and I'd probably buy. They've turned their site into a shit-hole and a big ass database isn't going to fix it.
If I'm annoyed, and I do ecommerce, just think about Grandma. It's driving her batty.
I would like a Super-sized Customer Database for $.99 please
for amazon because when I get my book recommendations I get copies of the same book I ALREADY BOUGHT AND OWN FROM AMAZON just its a different print. WTF? Please, their data mining and features dont work with the data they already have. On top of that they con people into paying TAX ON BOOKS which is NOT TAXED in the first place when shipping outside the UK and their shipping costs are a rip off. I always check with Play.com now as their prices are CHEAPER and INCLUDE shipping. Amazon is my last resort for books now. On saying that they did give me a replacement book free when I complained I got it wrinkled and bent out of shape, which it was, without even providing proof. I guess they make so much money.
The patent linked in the article is about clustering gift orders in a client/server network, or some similar business practice. I did not see anything about aggregating customer information. A careful reading of the article's text shows the security expert is stating a hypothetical ("If Amazon ...") conclusion, not directly criticizing the company, though said expert has been acutely critical of Amazon in the past. The Electronic Privacy Information Center website does not mention this news.
As a confirmed skeptic, I do worry about customer databases. I also worry about being mislead by media with a hidden agenda. I have to ask the question: Is this article unadulterated FUD, designed to smear Amazon, sell papers, or otherwise manipulate readers? Have you been had?
Just wondering.
You may now resume trashing Amazon.com
Is it just me or doesn't MySpace already do this? Of course - the shopping stuff
I presume that they already keep track of what I have bought and searched for, so let's skip that.
{ RANT #1
Let them infer what they like, when I buy a book for someone else, and they find that someone who buys books on sailing also buys books on gardening, let the correlate away.
And, in case any one from Amazon bothers to read slashdot, I really don't think I've bought much if anything suggested by their web site. I go to Amazon and use the search function. REALLY I do know what I am looking for right now more than some half baked rule based system.
END RANT
}
They want to add data we voluntarily give them. Simple, Don't volunteer anything. Don't fill in surveys. If they won't take an order without you giving too much info, then go elsewhere.
Simple really.
http://davesboat.blogspot.com/
I'm fine with them using data for marketing. I'm not fine with it being used against me.
There's a clear line between using data to advertise to a person more efficently, and using that same data to persecute, or even blackmail that same person. What one person trusts with Amazon they wouldn't trust the government with, and with good reason.
Unfortunately, since the government is so corrupt these days, you can't trust anyone with the data now, since it's just a subpeona away from being in the hands of the government, who would likely use that data to keep tabs and possibly blackmail it's opponents.
It's a shame, Amazon is a good company, but I don't think even they could keep this data out of the government's hands.
Well, uh, because it is LARGER than others.
Also, it is a patent application, not a patent yet.
It will also probably be a convoluted document of several pages, which will contain some IMO patent-worthy idea hidden in claim 23 or so, which under the US patent system makes the entire convolutus effectively an applicable patent.
Hey don't blame me, IANAB
Really. If you're willing to *honestly* fill in a form that discloses your religion, sexual orientation, etc., on the internet, you deserve to have that information disseminated. Posting on the internet is like shouting in the public square. Everyone has the right to do it, but don't complain when someone remembers what you said.
About time the US caught with the EU/UK on Data Protection Legislation then.....
Not that the UK's is perfect, but its better than the Nothing in the US.
Or dentists
The list is endless.
It shouldn't surprise me, but sure bugs me that everytime some big corporation decides they need to patent a new way of tracking and selling (or "accidentally" releasing to the world at large) information most (?) would prefer to keep private, the corporate media finds a way to make it sound like it's all the fault of "hackers."
I don't care why you're posting AC
Amazon is claiming to have invented something the NSA has been doing for YEARS, on an even larger scope (i.e., non-public databases, too).
Does this cross the privacy line or is it just reasonable data gathering to make retail sales more responsive to customer needs?
Companies don't gather personal data for no reason. They have to spend resources to collect and handle this information, and unless they're getting some kind of return on that investment it would be a dumb thing for them to do.
How do they get a return on investment? By selling more stuff.
So yes: the company will use this information to be more responsiive to customer needs.
Remember the hype about "my Tivo thinks I'm gay"? Tivo would come up with some weird programming based on what was watched, not taking into account there might be multiple people watching it. They've gotten much better about that now, though its still not perfect. I can tell they are tracking between units if you own multiple Tivo's too because when I setup my second box I set it up to record completely different types of shows but it started recording all sorts of home improvement shows that I had previously watched about 6 months prior on the main unit. Not that I'm complaining too much. I took it as a sign to get off my duff and buy a condo..lol
It will be interesting to see the evolution of Amazon's recommendations as they refine the system.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
I can guarantee you that if this is anything BUT defensive, any transactions between Amazon and I will never see the light of day. Funny thing is...I've held out this long because of the rediculous "one-click: patent that they really believe is innovative. Amazon's absence from my shopping list hasn't mattered- AT ALL. Yes folks, there is life beyond Amazon.
I am sure the CIA has prior art on large people-tracking systems. However, they would have to kill the patent examiner if they revealed to him/her their prior art.
Table-ized A.I.
Case and Point: Those stupid cards you have to carry just to have the privalege of paying the normal price on goods at supermarkets. I go to Albertsons and up until a year ago they did not have one of these stupid cards. Then the actress who plays Raymond's wife on "Everybody Loves Raymond" comes on my TV to announce the "good news" that Albertson's is getting a club card. If she was standing in front of me when she announced that I would have punched her right in the nose. Why is it good news that I have to carry another silly useless card in my wallet or on my keychain just to be able to pay the normal prices. And for what? So Albertsons can collect demographic information on me? No thanks!
As it is, Amazon's and other companies "recommendations" are generally unappealing to me. If Amazon having all this information will help make recommendations that really am interested in, then I'll gladly give out these kinds of publicly available and generally harmless data. So long as they don't share the information and they provide easy ways for me erase the data that I give them. If I were to buy a book about woman's health for my girlfriend, I wouldn't want 100 "recommendation" asking me to buy other feminine books, especially when I've clearly marked that I'm male. Long story short: This database is only acceptable if actually works.
Barnes and Noble has yet to not have a book I've wanted.
Plus, I get free shipping there...and they don't spam my inbox with 'reccomendations'.
Blar.
religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity and income.'
Atheist, straight, caucasian, £30-50k. What's so scary about that?
Get your own free personal location tracker
Actually, in Germany and the EU, it is forbidden to collect this kind of information unless it is directly relevant to the purpose of the collection. An exception is that the data subject volunteers this information.
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
All your (data)base belong to us.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
In 1999, I literally got this once on Amazon
"Customers who bought titles by Johann Sebastian Bach also bought titles by these artists:
Secret Garden
Andrea Bocelli
Andreas Vollenweider
Yanni
The Village People"
Couple of extra data points would not hurt...
So when the next nutjob dictator of Germany kills a major portion of an ethnic group, no one will be able to do a census to demonstrate that it even happened. (Just kidding.. I think)
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
Create a user name that's derived from somebody you don't care for, maybe Darl McBride, or Jeff Merkey.
Then search for books on facisim, or sexual perversion, or how to make bombs, or something.
If enough people did it, their database would be useless.
Klingon Software is not released, it escapes, inflicting terrible damage onto the enemy as it does
The concern about Amazon being about to collect such data is obsolete. Surely Amazon has already been collecting such data, and now is merely trying to patent such activity. They do not need to get a patent before using the technology (although companies often avoid making their technology public until protected by patent).
This is similar to the EU position. It could be defeated in the same way, a coordinated request for information by a significant number of users.
Bear in mind that while individual retailers hold information on your purchases with them your bank has the data on all your purchases with everybody you ever signed a cheque or credit card slip to.
...except spam and identity theft. Whee.
Which brand of freedom do you prefer: The freedom of having Middle-Easterns killed in the name of "freedom", "justice", and "democracy", the freedom to dilute native tribes and nations and replace them with culture of commerce and plastic, the freedom to grant morons a chance to vote ...or was it the freedom to be exploited by incompetent goverment and virtual corporations, disregard the dissident voices as "fascist" and snooze back into self-deception and passively submit to the Orwellian Utopia known as democracy?
Play on, little plebs. Play on.
http://www.anus.com/tribes/ada/
I chuckle to think that Amazon.com will soon think I'm a person with multiple personalties. One enjoys game programming, handheld video games, speculative fiction novels, and trance music. Another enjoys drawing manga, books on pagan religions, and alternative music.
Perhaps it is unfortunate that my better half and I use the same Amazon.com account....
Brian "Psychochild" Green
MMO developer's blog
The database could be made to 'fit' within the lawful processing purposes of some member's states implementation of the EU directive.
Both the EU directive and preceding convention attempt(ed) to reflect some breadth by catering for diversity, but narrowly applied interpretations together with the wider out-of-the-box implementations/application have demonstrably served to formalize more constrained images of the 'best' route to follow.
If there is nothing to worry about provided any given algorithmic parameters are met what happens to people who raise questions or look at issues outside those paramaters?
An example could be htt~//www.frugalfun.com/aaup.html
At least the authorities avoided the more secret and anonymous approach perceived as less troublesome than the one taken.
Sticking to the straight and narrow does lead only in the one direction and many already know what to expect, so there should be no unauthorised trouble or surprises.
That's a teriffic idea. We should ban everything that is mostly used to do evil.
Let's start with P2P software.