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The Future & History of the User Interface

An anonymous reader writes "The Mac Observer is taking a look at UI development with lots of video links to some of the latest developments in user interfaces. It also has links to some of the most interesting historical footage of UI developments, here's one of the 1968 NLS demo. From the article: 'Sadly, a great many people in the computer field have a pathetic sense (or rather ignorance) of history. They are pompous and narcissistic enough to ignore the great contributions of past geniuses... It might be time to add a mandatory "History of Computers" class to the computer science curriculum so as to give new practitioners this much needed sense of history.'"

249 comments

  1. I'm outraged! by Cr0w+T.+Trollbot · · Score: 5, Funny
    Where are the glorious UI innovation like Clippy and Microsoft Bob?

    Crow T. Trollbot

    1. Re:I'm outraged! by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      Devoured by the all-consuming CLI

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    2. Re:I'm outraged! by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Interesting
      > Where are the glorious UI innovation like Clippy and Microsoft Bob?

      On the shitcan of history, like the unreadable choice of default font on Slashdot, the Star Wars Galaxies NGE, the changes to Yahoo's stock message boards, and two recent changes to Google Maps, one of which has made broke printing impossible (users are now reduced to taking goddamn screen captures and printing those!), and and another one that auto zooms and recenters, instead of merely re-centering the map, on double-click, making navigation a time-consuming process of setting a desired zoom level, clicking to recenter, slowly loading a bunch of tiles you don't need, then unzooming back out, and loading yet another set of tiles.

      In each of these cases, user feedback was nearly universally negative, and yet the "improvements" remain in place.

      If this is UI innovation for Web 2.0, give me Web 1.0 back.

    3. Re:I'm outraged! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow it is truely stunning how microsoft bob jokes NEVER get old.

    4. Re:I'm outraged! by pilgrim23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Clippy came out of Bob, Melinda saw that it was good. But seriously though, about that same time period was the dawn of CDROM as a media type. Many magazines shipped with CDs, and each had a GUI. The gamer mags in particular had various custom GUIs for selecting their content. Some were based on shopping, some on Office or Home (ala Bob) Some on really weird stuff (Anyone remember the elevator ride to hell on old PC Gamers?). It seems those were some real free wheeling days of UI development, but none of that seems to have gone anywhere.

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    5. Re:I'm outraged! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Troll? Even if you haven't been on a Yahoo message board lately, look at the two Google threads. Google's own internal support boards show 74 complaints on printing, 46 complaints about auto zoom. Maybe you prefer the new /. but three very large web applications (message boards, and two of Google Maps' formerly greatest features - printing of large maps, and easy navigation - have been "upgraded" recently, all resulting in decreased usability. It's a trend, and it sucks.

    6. Re:I'm outraged! by Jurrasic · · Score: 1

      Heh, I still have a bunch of those PC Gamer CDs from 96-98 with the 'elevator ride to hell' UI to get to the demos. I loved those days personally. Standardized = Boring.

      --
      Devil bunnies! I snort the nose! Lucifer! Banana! Banana!
    7. Re:I'm outraged! by oudzeeman · · Score: 1

      I am the coconut monkey!

      boy was I pissed when they changed his voice.

    8. Re:I'm outraged! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd really be surprised by the amount of research and development done between Microsoft Research and Microsoft Design.

      Just to give an example, there was a presentation at last year's Professional Developers Conference in Los Angeles where the design team showed off all the concepts that they went through before they settled on the current Aero interface. From PDC 2003 to PDC 2005, they have gone through several ideas on how to improve the overall experience of the platform. As we all know, Longhorn was scrapped, but it's neat to look at what they came up with.

      The presentation was called "The past 60 days in 50 seconds". I found the video of it on Putfile (direct link to WMV), and I found extracted images of the video on this site.

    9. Re:I'm outraged! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was actually most surprised at how DUMB Microsoft appear to be, judging by that video.
      Let's be quite honest about this: there is ONE interface design that is the BEST, that the MOST people find the EASIEST to use. It can very simply be arrived at by using people with OPEN minds, who take the interface out to thousands of members of the public, ask them to use it, and WATCH what they do, and LISTEN to their responses.

      Not difficult at all. Look at the dumbass 'interfaces' that Microshit produced:

      http://www.ispencer.us/pdc2005/uiconcepts/sp_index .php?file=./Frame0026%20copy.jpg
      I particularly like (NOT!) the ludicrously large, screen estate wasting pictures, of the CD, for example. Is this interface designed for one year olds who can't read yet? Like - DUH! I can't even imagine working with such a moronic interface - how would I find one of forty different programs using this shit?

      http://www.ispencer.us/pdc2005/uiconcepts/sp_index .php?file=./Frame0005%20copy.jpg
      Another example of 'interfaces for one year olds who can't read'. You mean - these idiots haven't worked out yet that we don't need or want huge bloody PICTURES of everything? We can READ 'My computer', 'Monitor settings', etc.etc. Using dumbass huge icons is a WASTE OF SCREEN SPACE, and it SLOWS DOWN the process of finding things.

      http://www.ispencer.us/pdc2005/uiconcepts/sp_index .php?file=./Frame0008%20copy.jpg
      Jesus! It gets worse!
      Why don't they just make those icons in the bottom right hand corner even BIGGER (sarcasm) and just have, like, one HUGE picture of a computer on the screen, to represent 'My Computer'? What a brilliant idea!

      I could go on and on, but I think you get the jist: these people haven't got a bloody CLUE, yet they are deciding the interface that hundreds of MILLIONS of people will have to put up with! (Notice I didn't say 'use').

    10. Re:I'm outraged! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fonts are not unreadable, but your sentence will continue to be unless you use the word illegible.

    11. Re:I'm outraged! by Webz · · Score: 1, Insightful
      In each of these cases, user feedback was nearly universally negative, and yet the "improvements" remain in place.

      As an interface/interaction designer, your product is like your baby, with all of its quirks and whatnot. Even in the face of criticism, rarely would designers "go back" on their decisions. That would force them to acknowledge two things: 1) my baby is ugly! 2) i was wrong!

      And who wants to do that?
  2. In other news... by Riding+Spinners · · Score: 0

    Graphical User Interfaces are intuitive because you can remember the location of things.
    1. Re:In other news... by celardore · · Score: 3, Funny

      Graphical User Interfaces are intuitive because you can remember the location of things.

      That's easy. It's at c:/>Files\Home\Photos\1997\Family\Snaps\*.jpg

      duh.

    2. Re:In other news... by AssCork · · Score: 0, Funny


      Could be taken on an 'oliday...Know what I mean? Eh? Wink Wink.

      --
      The following replies are posted by unwashed nerds.
    3. Re:In other news... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I agree, most of the current clutter on my own computer is due to the ability to scan a directory very quickly or worse search for the files.

      Back when I was using dos or before that the older apple OSes. The ones without the graphics mind you, I just spent the additionaly couple of seconds here and there to just organize things the right way.

      On a side note I thought it was silly to suggest that the older computers were more responsive; more to the point would have been less bloated. I definitely remember times when a program would freeze and it wouldn't become apparent for 5 or 10 minutes. Not to mention the long waits for files to be read off of the disk. That being said, I still get around quite a bit quicker with the command line than a mouse.

      BTW, I think you mean c:\Files\Home\Photos\1997\Family\Snaps\*.jpg

    4. Re:In other news... by Lord+Balto · · Score: 1

      You can't get most people to even convert to a pen and tablet format, so it's no wonder all the new "advanced" GUIs are just cute little 3D graphics manipulations. Cripes! Look at the damned keyboard arrangement. They're still using the stupid Underwood QWERTY layout that had the keys in alphabetical order but the buttons all boloxed up. I have yet to see anything truly creative come out of these projects. They are still all based on the tyranny of the page. So now you can rotate it. Big deal.

    5. Re:In other news... by quanticle · · Score: 1
      Graphical User Interfaces are intuitive because you can remember the location of things.

      Unless Microsoft breaks the idiom by having the tabs on the multi-row tabbed interfaces dynamically move around to put the active row at the bottom. If you switch to a different row to check something, and want to go back to where you were before, you have to keep track of the fact that the row ordering has magically changed. Here's a hint guys: if the window has more than 1 row of tabs, it can be separated into 2 windows.
      </rant>
      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    6. Re:In other news... by thadman08 · · Score: 1

      Say no more!

  3. Looks great but by BeoCluster · · Score: 0

    Can I make a Beowulf Cluster of these ?

    1. Re:Looks great but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh yawn, can it run linux?

  4. Multi-touch by identity0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The multi-touch interface demo on Youtube was interesting, I saw it a while ago.

    The thing that makes it different is how casual the interaction is compared to file & image programs today. You see the guy just touch the screen and rotate, zoom, and move images around and organize it, instead of opening up dialog boxes, secondary windows, or menus to access the functionality. It's very basic stuff, but you see how powerful it is, kind of like how Google Maps is compared to the old static kind of online maps.

    It's like today's image programs are concerned with precicely doing something like zoom to exact levels(%100/%50/%33/etc), but this programs let you do it to "whatever zoom feels right", without worrying you with the details.

    Hey speaking of which, I wish cameraphones had a much more fluid interface for picture organization, so I can add keywords, associate it with people on my contacts, etc... but what do they care, as long as they make money off the ringtones :(

    1. Re:Multi-touch by srblackbird · · Score: 2, Interesting

      http://tedblog.typepad.com/tedblog/2006/08/jeff_ha n_on_ted.html

      There you go :)
      Don't forget to view the other TED talks!

      --
      "The test of the morality of a society is what it does for it's children." -Dietrich Bonhoeffer
    2. Re:Multi-touch by bunions · · Score: 2, Interesting

      100% agreement.

      A lot of the limitations on the UI stems from the hardware we use to talk to the computer. The multitouch stuff is awesome, and if/when we see some hardware support, you'll start to see some very, very interesting new stuff.

      As much as I hate 'media' keyboards, if they were just standardized I'd be very happy. I'd love to have several software-configurable scrollwheels and sliders. Universal out-of-the-box support for secondary/tertiary/n-ary small LCD displays would also be nice.

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    3. Re:Multi-touch by Stalus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Honestly, I think the reason things like the multi-touch display is that we're too focused on having a single device for everything - or rather the price point isn't low enough yet not to. A vast majority of what people do on their computers is generate text... word processing, e-mailing, IMing, etc. That multi-touch display is no replacement for a physical keyboard. Yeah, you can pop one up on screen, but how many people have you heard complain about a keyboard just not feeling right? While such a display might be nice for art, photos, mapping, etc, it would be awful for what most people do most of the time, and businesses aren't going to sink money into that.

      Another downside to such a display is that it would be physically stressful for prolonged use. There's a reason we train ourselves to touch type and use keyboard navigation. I'm not too thrilled by the idea of my primary interface being one that requires large arm movements.

      Despite all that, the other reason UIs don't change much is that what people seem to see as UI advances just complicate the UI rather than simplify it. I love how the AI word spends all of their time trying to reduce dimensionality, and the UI world is always trying to increase it. Keep it simple! A cooler looking, higher dimensional UI is not necessarily a better UI.

    4. Re:Multi-touch by peragrin · · Score: 1

      While it isn't a replacement for a keyboard, the bulk of today's input is actually being done on touch sensitive displays just like star trek. Or do you not count the thousands, of restaurants, movies theaters, and retail stores who have touch sensitive displays for their primary input device, with a keyboard/number pad? Those are taking off precisely because of inherit limitations in keyboards, and their limited input abilities. Keyboards won't go anywhere. people will still have to create reports, and input long strings of text, but can you imagine dual or quad touch input on a tabletPC? The ability to toss out the mouse, and just touch the screen of that style input would be great. with the keyboard tucked away in a drawer ready to be used when needed.

      don't tell you would want the mouse around for game play? that has long been beaten by better controllers. Try it. reach up and touch the close button on this window with your finger, now click on (start/applications/K, etc), combine that with a keyboard input system in the form of an enhanced command line and you might be able to see just how we can make computing without as much repetitive stress injuries.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    5. Re:Multi-touch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like today's image programs are concerned with precicely doing something like zoom to exact levels(%100/%50/%33/etc), but this programs let you do it to "whatever zoom feels right", without worrying you with the details.

      And that can be a problem. When you're giving an instruction to a device, "whatever feels right" may be a convenient way to specify the instruction, but it may not be the best way because it is imprecise. Such a specification will suffice when misinterpretation of the instruction will not cause critical problems, but it's not usually the preferred way to interact with a computer. Besides, zooming can feel "analog" with a simple mouse scroll wheel. Why would I want to strectch screens with both of my hands when I can flick one of my fingers?

    6. Re:Multi-touch by bunions · · Score: 1

      'flamebait'? I don't get it.

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    7. Re:Multi-touch by Eideewt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreement here too.

      My biggest gripe with today's computer interfaces is that attempting to funnel everything you might want to do through a mouse plus (if you're lucky) a keyboard forces you (as an interface designer) to make a difficult decision: either waste huge amounts of screen real-estate on functions you need to include, or hide them away.

      What we need are interface devices that aren't so bandwidth limited. When we want to make the computer perform an action, all we are generally able to do is locate it on the screen and say "Do." On systems with multi-button mice the situation is somewhat better. Most Firefox users are familiar with "left click to follow a link, middle click to open it in another tab, and right click to get an [ick] context menu" idiom. Scroll wheels are another instance of a bandwidth-increasing addition to the system. Rather than clicking an arrow to scroll, we are now able to spin a wheel while pointing in the general area of the thing we wedant to scroll.

      Some systems put the physical controls available to even better use. The Sam text editor, its successor Acme, and basically all of the Plan 9 operating utilize the mouse buttons to perform distinct and consistent actions. In Plan 9, button 1 selects, and the other two buttons, when used in conjunction with it, perform other useful actions. The exciting feature of this setup is that it moves the selection of possible actions out of the computer, where navigation is inefficient, and puts it literally under your fingertips. Rather than selecting an object on the screen then selecting an action, or vice versa, one can simply point at it and say "do this." The ability to convey specific actions in one fell swoop is what makes command line junkies (myself included) swing the way they do. What could be more exciting than marrying that power with a GUIs flexible expression?

      An even more extreme example is the five button keyboard (for the left hand) + three button mouse featured in the Doug Engelbart video linked from the summary. I'm not sure how his system used them, but this setup allows for eight functions using the most obvious mapping, many more than modern interfaces. Not only that, but with chording, it's possible to increase the number of possible actions to a dizzying 255, which is probably way too many to actually make use of*: Engelbart's system uses typed commands as well as clicks rather than attempting to assign a meaning to each combination of button presses. One good way to cope with the number of possibilities is to assign a general funtion to each button, and to combine those functions to perform actions. For example, if the left mouse button selects text, the middle button pastes it, and the right mouse button cuts it, one can copy by selecting with LMB, then pressing RMB, MMB in succession. Other button actions might be "system" to trigger global system functions, "window" to do window management and "inspect" to look more closely at an item. What might happen when you press these together? Exposé, anyone? But without reaching for the keyboard.

      Anyone interested in user interfaces should take a look at the Sketchpad computer program for starters, which was simply amazing, and at "Alan Kay: Graphical User Interfaces" on Google Video. GUIs have a rich history that is not evident in modern interfaces.

      * This is a good thing! Even when a the system allocates a set of global button presses and applications implement their set of commands, there will still by plenty left over for the rest of us to allocate as we see fit. This is the one point where I disagree with Bunions: I love that multimedia keyboards aren't standardized, because it means that programs don't depend on the buttons they provide, which in turn gives me 32 keys (on the keyboard I have) that I can bind to any action I want, without losing any functionality.

    8. Re:Multi-touch by Eideewt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think you're selling multi-touch displays short. While I agree that a device doesn't have to do everything, it's clear from the number of people who are dissatisfied with human-computer interfaces that the things they do could be done better. You're also underestimating the amount of mousing that people do. Touchscreens are no replacement for the keyboard, but they are a good replacement for the mouse (except maybe in FPS games, a special case).

      Computers have a few things they do well: accept textual input, display data on big screens, and multi-task. From those it follows that anything graphical or textual is a good fit, and that while "one device to do everything" is a bad idea, one device that does many things that it happens to be good at is a great idea. For example, it's extremely common that a person wants to access the web while working on a project. It's better to have one device that can help you gracefully juggle everything you're trying to do than to have a typewriter, a web browser, a CD player, your clock, a "download machine" and a telegraph key (for IMing), each with its own chassis, competing for desk space. Up to a point, combining functions makes sense.

      Computers also do one thing very badly: they don't accept input from anything other than a keyboard very well. Specialized fields do have devices that work well: graphics tablets for graphics artists and MIDI keyboards for composers, for example. The driving force behind multi-touch displays is that the "interface for the rest of us", the mouse, is a difficult and inefficient thing to use. We all have ten built-in pointing devices which we can use with aplomb -- some people even manage to use their toes as a few more -- and multi-touch displays are a way to make use of those. Much as I dislike the desktop metaphor, I must invoke it here: using a mouse to interact with a computer is akin to using a single stick to push your papers around on your desk. It's just not the best way to go about it.

      I very much doubt that it would be stressful to use a multi touch display for a long time. In fact, I suspect that it would be much less stressful than making the constrained motions required by a mouse. Joints are *made* to move. It might still be a little exhausting at first.

      I agree that UIs are best when they are simple... but simple is in the eye of the beholder. To me, a UI that allows me to use my skills in a direct way is a simple one. Using my fingers to move on-screen objects = simple to me. A complex UI is one that requires me to perform actions in ways that take more effort than the direct way. The direct way is the way I would do it if I were manipulating physical objects. For example, menus (especially nested ones) and window managers that don't (i.e. I have to drag and position windows myself, when the window *manager* should do it) are complex to me. Above all, attempting to convey a huge variety of instructions by pushing a box around and clicking buttons on it is complex, because it adds another layer I have to work through. If I ever my my GUI fairy godmother, I'm asking her for a laptop with a touch screen. Maybe a multi-touch screen if she looks generous.

    9. Re:Multi-touch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait...

      ...middle click opens a new tab?

      *click*

      HOLY CRAP!

      Thanks!

  5. Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by posterlogo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    FTA: The current state-of-the-art User Interface (UI) we've been enjoying has remained largely stagnant since the 1980s. The greatest innovation that has been recently released is based on video card layering/buffering techniques like Apple's Expose. But, there is a large change coming. Rev 2 of the UI will be based on multiple gestures and more directly involve human interaction. Apple is clearly working in the area as some of the company's patent filings demonstrate. Nevertheless, these videos might make Mac (and Windows) users experience a huge case of UI envy, as a lot of UI development (in XGL in particular) makes the current Mac UI seem creaky and old fashioned.

    The guy seems to think that the stagnation of the UI is an entirely bad thing. It seems to me that when something works well, people like to stick to it. I really don't think the majority of people need multiple desktops floating around let alone a brain interface. The only widely practical new UI technology I saw was multi-touch interactive displays (or touch screens in general, though they have been around for a long time and are still not very popular). As far as his comment that the new-fangled UIs make the Mac seem creaky and old, well, that's his opinion I guess. Some would just say the Mac UI is useful as it is. Even some of the new features in Leopard seem unnecessary to me. It's never bad to innovate, just don't automatically assume every new cool thing is practical or useful for most people.

  6. Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... and I could stop working and go back to university to get another degree full time and end up into research, where would the state of the art of the UI/human-computer-interaction field be? which degree would one want to pursue? where?

    I've always been fascinated by HCI but have yet to be able to pursue this in a work-related setting (where I tend to write backend code, basically as far away from users as you could possibly get).

    --
    -- the cake is a lie
    1. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by pugh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude, If you win the lottery have some fun. Buy a Ferrari, hang out on a tropical island for a while, do whatever you want. You don't have to go back into full-time education if your're rich.

      --
      "I am a die-hard capitalist....but unethical, lying, bastard capitalism is really no better than socialism" - unknown
    2. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 1

      who says I would have to, I would do it because it'd be a lot of fun: as many people around here can attest to, coding and learning are a great when you can pick the projects and the topics vs doing your phb/shareholders' bidding.

      --
      -- the cake is a lie
    3. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by pugh · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected. (Fingers crossed).

      --
      "I am a die-hard capitalist....but unethical, lying, bastard capitalism is really no better than socialism" - unknown
    4. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by kbielefe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We have some human-machine interaction specialists where I work. I know their educational backgrounds are varied, but I'm not sure what the basic requirements are.

      We make military aircraft, so they are concerned not only with the computer interaction in the cockpit, but also with the positions, labels, and feel of switches, knobs, controls, instruments, ejection buttons, etc. For some reason quick and reliable person-machine interaction is considered important when people are shooting at you. (Haven't we all been tempted to motivate certain Microsoft engineers the same way at one time or another?)

      It's a lot of fun to go down to the simulator and watch these guys work, but I know there is a lot of tedious work in between the simulator "play" time. Just don't limit yourself to desktop computers when you think about possible careers in the field.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    5. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 1

      I definitely am not, often when I use various cell phones, remotes, appliances etc. I think of ways things would be more user friendly, it would definitely be a lot of fun being able to come up with ways to make things work better in all sorts of human-machine interaction whether it's a GUI or a switch.

      Still it seems unlikely to find a job in the field without some sort of accreditation from somewhere, that unless you are in the right place at the right time.

      --
      -- the cake is a lie
    6. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by tchapin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here's a listing of Human Factors (and associated) graduate programs, which is published by the HFES. http://www.hfes.org/web/Students/grad_programs.htm l

      Todd

      --
      -- !todd erases a red dot! I steal music on the internet.
    7. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'd be opening a design atelier looking at all aspects of design.

      If you haven't already read it, look up a copy of Donald Norman's "The Design of Everyday Things" (formally known as "The Psychology of Everyday Things"), it's a real eye opener about the visual and contextual clues we use to determine how an object 'should' work, and how often these clues lead us astray.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    8. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by anaesthetica · · Score: 1

      Attn: Please revoke parent poster's official geek card. Thanks.

    9. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by zentinal · · Score: 1

      Totally off topic, but, in that case, there'd be nothing preventing you from buying the Ferrari, hanging out on some tropical island and grabbing some satellite internet access (anyone tried Hughesnet?) a few high end laptops and working on whatever you wish on a south pacific beach somewhere. That way, you mix in that all important geek factor into your fantasy, and get to retain your geek card.

    10. Re:Assuming that I won the lottery tomorrow... by Webz · · Score: 1

      You would aim to get a degree in either Human-Computer Interaction, Interaction Design, or any one of its many names... (People in this field have a fixation on the precision of the name, or the lack thereof)

      Last time I checked, as I researched this very question when I went to university, the number one school in America to study HCI is Carnegie Mellon. It's the only school to have a three-tier (BS, Masters, PhD) degree program, as well as the most popular and well developed.

      My degree actually says BS in HCI (I did not attend CMU).

      Also, when it comes to real world HCI, there are two flavors... One, academic types who are usually into research and numbers and cognition and all that jazz... The second type is the one that's actually in the workforce. These people come from all different backgrounds and have different titles (Information Architect, User Experience Designer, User Interaction Specialist). The list goes on and on and they can keep sipping their lattes telling you about it. They're all basically the same, and poorly defined. But the key is this: you don't need to have any sort of background to do this kind of work, you just need to get into it. It's very chicken and egg, but I assure you the industry as a whole is still figuring themselves out.

  7. Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Heh, the issue of User Interfaces always makes me laugh at the incompetence of seemingly the entire world when it comes to User Interfaces (or the whole computing world in general).

    Some obvious trivial faults:
    1. The whole overlapping window model is bankrupt. You want to minimize the amount of information, especially redundant information, that the user has to input, and output as much information in an accessible way. The overlapping window model does the opposite: it requires that you tile your windows manually (or through tedious, inaccessible menus) rather than specifying which windows you want to see. If you don't do that (and due to the required effort, most don't) then you don't see all of the information you want even though most of the screen is wasted space!.
      For reference, just look at your screen now, and watch how much of it is covered by empty "gray areas". When you open a new window, does it hide gray areas, or real information?
      This is even more absurd when there are just a couple of windows, hiding each other, when the entire screen is free space! The computer expects YOU to work for HIM and move these windows from hiding each other.
      This phonemenon is also felt in list boxes, where you are expected to adjust the column widths manually to not be too short/too long, even when there is an optimal adjustment readily available. You again have to work for the computer, and ask for a ctrl+plus to set it up. Most people don't even know about ctrl+plus in column-listboxes.
      Some programs make it even worse, and don't let you resize their windows when the entire screen is free, and you have to scroll through their data in a little window.
    2. Internationalization and shortcut keys.
      What's so fascinating about this example - is how common it is across platforms, programs, operating systems.
      The feature is called "shortcut keys" and yet everyone is implementing it as "shortcut symbols".
      This is terrible - when you switch between languages, all shortcut keys break!
    3. Multitude of widgets, with overlapping functionalities. This is just silly and confusing to beginners. We need less widgets, not more.
    4. "Jumpyness". Today's GUI's all "jump". What I mean by that is that they don't smoothly switch from one state to the next, but rather do that with a single screen refresh. The human mind doesn't read that very well. For example, scrolling down "jumps" down a pageful instead of scrolling down a pageful in a smooth motion.
      The fact that fixing this would require modifications of all existing GUI programs is a certificate of poor architecture of GUI software.


    There are many more trivial issues to fix. Until they fix these, I find it very funny to talk about future directions for the User Interface. We haven't even gotten the basics right yet!
    1. Re:Overlapping windows by wootest · · Score: 1

      Smooth scrolling is one of many fixes needed for 4. In general I agree with your notions although I don't think that the overlapping window model is bankrupt.

    2. Re:Overlapping windows by mcrbids · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your points are interesting. But they have already been largely mitigated!

      1) Your points on overlapping windows is interesting. But KDE already addresses that. When I open a new window in KDE, it opens the new window over the area of greatest unused space. Overlapping continues, but as unobstructively as possible. Contrast that with Windows' means of opening windows about 1/4" below and to the right of the previously opened window, which almost assuredly wastes as much screen real estate as is possible.

      2) Can't comment on shortcut keys and internationalization, other than to state that most programs let you customize this.

      3) Multitudes of widgets with overlapping functionality. Care to elaborate?

      4) "Jumpyness" is more natural! When you flip pages in a book, you go from one page straight to the next. It doesn't "slide", you flip it and that's it. How is page up/down any different?

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    3. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      When you open a new window, does it hide gray areas, or real information?


      Unless you're using an extremely poor window manager, it hides the gray areas. Either that or you need to go into your KDE or Gnome preferences where you can specify this.


      What are you using? IIRC this was considered a significant innovation in window managers when I was finishing college in the 90s; but certainly hasn't been a problem for at least a decade.

    4. Re:Overlapping windows by dr.badass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you don't do that (and due to the required effort, most don't) then you don't see all of the information you want even though most of the screen is wasted space!.

      Why make the assumption that you always want to see all of the information in all of the windows you have open? Just because a window is visible doesn't mean it is relevant to the current (and ever-changing) task.

      Right now I'm typing a comment on Slashdot, but my mail client is open behind this window because I was reading email just a few minutes ago. When I'm done typing this comment, and close this window, I'll be back in my email client. Without the very simple ability to have windows overlap, I would be looking at two completely different and unrelated tasks, which doesn't seem like an improvement.

      Today's GUI's all "jump".

      All except Mac OS X.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    5. Re:Overlapping windows by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree.

      1. Overlapping windows are used to make more information available to the user than can be displayed on the available screen real estate. The RL metaphor is a collection of papers on a desk. You can't see every paper all at once, but you bring to the top of the pile those which you need. You do this for your own benefit, based on the needs of the moment, not for that of the desk -- or the computer. The whole point is that the space isn't tiled. I don't like working that way personally, and I suspect the reason we've moved away from that model is because most people don't. Remember the early Windows versions?

        You asked how much of the screen was empty space and therefore wasted? Very little of it, most likely. Very little of mine is as I type. Space with no content in it is not necessarily wasted. In fact, it most likely isn't. Space is crucial to how our brains orgainize what we see. If every square inch of space on the screen was being used, we'd see it as a jumbled mess. The best and most eye-pleasing data presentation use of designs very carefully balance empty space against that occupied by content. Take, for example, your original post against my reply. See how I create spaces between my paragraphs with properly structured P tags? See how much more readable that is?

        I agree that some programs are badly designed and make poor use of the model. That doesn't mean the model itself is broken.

        Yes, it would be nice for those very particular about their screen arrangements if they could save state between sessions and recover it immediately when they start back up again. This is an implementation issue 00 remembering, of course, that most people prefer not to tile.

      2. Yes they're shortcut symbols really, but people have a hard time remembering arbitrary symbols. That's why we employ mnemonics, which naturally relate to the language of the interface. For example, it's easy to remember the shortcut to open a file in most word processors (ctrl-O) because "O" is the first letter in the word "open". It's not reasonable to expect such mnemonics, input through an alphanumeric keyboard, to work any other way -- unless you can think of a better one where alphanumeric input is both easy to remember and language-independent. Good luck.
      3. This is not an inherent fault in the model, but is a failure across an industry to standardize. In my own GUI design work in Motif, this is why I use the default behavior of the default widget set as much as possible. The users most often know exactly what to expect then.
      4. I remember when some word processors and the like included a "smooth scrolling" option. No one used it. It turned out that most people wanted the screen to scroll quickly instead.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    6. Re:Overlapping windows by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

      Ironic that I killed one of my own points in part through clicking on the wrong button. As a point of design, the "Preview" and "Submit" buttons on /. are rather too close together.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    7. Re:Overlapping windows by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      When is the last time you used Windows? 3.1? Applications open where they were last placed.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    8. Re:Overlapping windows by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Heh, the issue of User Interfaces always makes me laugh at the incompetence of seemingly the entire world when it comes to User Interfaces (or the whole computing world in general).

      So it's you against The World on the subject of how a UI ought to work. Hmm, I wonder who is more likely to be right.

      1. The computer has no way of knowing, other than via user input, which information is important, and needs to be made viewable. I actually prefer to manually set the size and placement of my windows exactly the way I want them, because I know better than the computer does what I'm trying to accomplish.

      2. You're complaining about an edge case. The vast majority of users will only ever use a computing system in their own native language. It doesn't matter to me that the Spanish term for "Save" doesn't start with 's'; in English, Ctrl+S maps nicely to "Save".

      3. I am interested to know which UI widgets you feel are superfluous. Running through the common ones (text boxes, menus, radio buttons, sliders, et al) in my head, I find each one to have a reasonable logical and/or graphical justification for existing. So what confuses you?

      4. I want a UI to react to my commands as quickly as possible. If I hit "page down", I want to see the next page now; I don't want to wait 2 seconds as the content smoothly scrolls to the new location. And if UIs were designed so that they did this, I suspect you'd be searching for the option to turn it back off as well.

    9. Re:Overlapping windows by dan828 · · Score: 1

      "Jumpyness" is more natural! When you flip pages in a book, you go from one page straight to the next. It doesn't "slide", you flip it and that's it. How is page up/down any different?

      It's not more natural, it's what you're used to. Realize that pages in books are a format that was dictated by technology, not what was the best solution-- the older way of written works were continous scrolls, which the reader could unroll at the top and roll out at the bottom for a continous reading experience, like much information is provided on the web. Sheets of paper were just a cheaper way of providing a writing surface, and later a much cheaper way (with the advent of the printing press) of producing information. Constraints of technology and price, and a familiarity with the format, do not make something more natural, it just makes it easier for you to use because it's what you expect.

    10. Re:Overlapping windows by bunions · · Score: 1

      "When you flip pages in a book, you go from one page straight to the next. It doesn't "slide", you flip it and that's it."

      And that flip takes zero time? Last time I read a book, I could actually see the page being turned.

      The problem with this sort of animation is that they're generally not fast enough to be unobtrusive. I don't need a 2-second animation of a page turn, I need a half-second one.

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    11. Re:Overlapping windows by Gli7ch · · Score: 1

      Overlapping windows are used to make more information available to the user than can be displayed on the available screen real estate. The RL metaphor is a collection of papers on a desk. You can't see every paper all at once, but you bring to the top of the pile those which you need. You do this for your own benefit, based on the needs of the moment, not for that of the desk -- or the computer. The whole point is that the space isn't tiled. I don't like working that way personally, and I suspect the reason we've moved away from that model is because most people don't. Remember the early Windows versions?

      I don't agree with your metaphor. The only reason you have overlapping papers on a desk is so that you have easy access to said papers. However, if you were writing on one piece of paper while referring to another, you would have the pieces of paper side by side. The need for easy access due to overlapping is removed thanks to wonderful inventions like task bars. But if were needing to read from say, a CSS reference page while I wrote a stylesheet, I'd rather have them side by side while I work, and the current implementations for that are rather... crap.

    12. Re:Overlapping windows by dosius · · Score: 1

      I keep all my programs maximized and switch between them sometimes from the taskbar and sometimes with a good old-fashioned Alt-Tab.

      My keyboard layout includes a Compose key for typing weird caacs on the keyboard, and in my main program it's able to remote-control my mp3 player app. Play, back, nest, pause, stop, in that order.

      And my taskbar features a single-click run application button, current outdoor temperature, date and time.

      btw, I don't find overlapping windows intuitive at all except for file management. Windows 1 might've actually had it right after all...

      -uso.

      --
      What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
    13. Re:Overlapping windows by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with the window model sucking. I tend to maximize all my windows anyway and alt-tab between them. I only window them when I need to copy and paste something where the copy and paste feature doesn't work for some reason.

      Especially annoying are those apps that spew multiple toolbars and palettes in several child windows which constantly get in the way (as in most paint programs).

    14. Re:Overlapping windows by dosius · · Score: 1

      Slashcode wrecked my use of foreign characters there (it says "caacs")

      -uso.

      --
      What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
    15. Re:Overlapping windows by grumbel · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I don't like working that way personally, and I suspect the reason we've moved away from that model is because most people don't. Remember the early Windows versions?

      I think the throuble with tiling is that it simply doesn't work that well as a generic concept, there are simply to much applications around that are just to small to make sense in a tiled workspace, ie. a small calculator should overlap, not tile, since else he can't be seen in full and wastes a lot of screenspace. However in Blender or Emacs tiling works great, much better then MDI solution which present windows in a window, this is probally because Blender and Emacs deal with one kind of data only and don't have to work with hundreds of different applications which made have wastly variing requirements.

      However, while tiling has a fair share of problems, our way to manage windows is also far from optimal, there is a lot of time wasted with moving windows around and aranging the screen in such a way that it is actually usable Apples Expose helps a bit, but real solution is probally to move to a fully zoomable desktop, so that one isn't restrited by screen borders, but can simply zoom out when more space is needed. This also helps a lot with orientation, since you can simply place everything side by side and still reach it and don't have to lower/raise yourself through a stack of windows.

      It's not reasonable to expect such mnemonics, input through an alphanumeric keyboard, to work any other way -- unless you can think of a better one where alphanumeric input is both easy to remember and language-independent. Good luck.

      How about an LCD Keyboard that actually displays those shortcuts so that you don't have to type them blindly in the first place? Might of course still take a while those are actually available and affortable, but the problem with shortcuts is certainly solvable in a better way.

      I remember when some word processors and the like included a "smooth scrolling" option. No one used it. It turned out that most people wanted the screen to scroll quickly instead.

      That isn't because smooth scrolling is a bad idea, but because it simply was badly implemented. Now I don't necesarily blame the developers for that, because some things simply can't be implemented well with todays hardware, ie. when I press down I don't want the screen to scroll automatically for half a second, thats just not really a good way of doing it. However I also don't want the screen to just jump around, since that is extremly disorientating. So what could the solution be? How about a pressure sensitive scroll button, the harder I press the faster it scrolls and scrolling both starts instantly when I press and stops when I depress. Or how about a scroll wheel that actually scrolls smoothly instead of just sending up/down events on every click?

    16. Re:Overlapping windows by rpenguin · · Score: 1

      1. It's not bankrupt at all. Overlapping windows are very useful in filtering out which data you're currently paying attention to. I'm not the only one who is more productive without the distraction of superfluous information. On my Mac I run Backdrop, which is simply a solid black window which I bring to the front to cover windows I'm not working with. Additionally, I run SpiritedAway which hides windows that are idle. I can quickly add windows to an exception list to prevent this from happening when it's undesirable. In truth, I wish more applications had a fullscreen mode, without extraneous window boundaries and menu bars.

      2. Obviously this is largely related to mnemonics over position. How do you determine what keyboard layout gets the most symbolic shortcut layout while the rest are merely positional? That said, shortcut keys are there to provide quick access to common actions, not inductive/intuitive paths.

      4. Plenty of GUIs have smooth scrolling or transitional animations. Some are intrusive, some are appealing, but in general, once people are doing a task repetitively they are impatient and want it to happen quickly and crisply. With the exception of tracking moving objects, our eyes jump around and jerk quickly, so we're completely suited to it. Plenty of people feel very comfortable with the speed of a jerky page up/page down and find scrollbars tedious.

    17. Re:Overlapping windows by Stalus · · Score: 1

      Some comments:

      #2: I think his complaint is that standard practice tends to be that mneumonics are chosen for English, and are kept across translations. So, if you've ever used a platform in another language, often you can still use the computer without knowing that language because all of the shortcuts are still the same. As an English user, that's great... but they're no longer mneumonics for non-English speakers. The reason this is done is that it's typically desired to have mneumonics be unique for a given menu, so they would have to be chosen post-translation, and typical ship processes don't allow for that.

      #3: While I agree that standards are good.. the reason the industry doesn't standardize is that there is no perfect widget set. There are tradeoffs, and the lack of standardization is just the manifestation of these tradeoffs. However, I think they take it a big too far... HTML doesn't exactly have a large widget set, but look at all the things you can do with it.

      #4: You notice the reason for this alot more when working with blind users. People can't stand any delay between the key being pressed and the information reaching them. For the blind, a seemingly unnoticeable delay between keypress and speech response will bother them. For me, it's the animation that brings up the menu before the menu is usable (I always turn that junk off). While animations are nice for the inexperienced user to help them train their attention to focus on a given screen area for a particular key press, once our attention focus has been trained, we get impatient with such things.

    18. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Non-overlapping window managers exist.

      wmii

      Ion

      ratpoison
      Personally I use wmii. It solves a lot of the complaints you make in point 1. I switched to this from windowmaker where my working model consisted of one maximised window per workspace, I got annoyed with how much effort it took to look at multiple windows at once (resizing, moving etc.) and decided to find an alternative. This was the one I settled on, I'm very happy with it.

    19. Re:Overlapping windows by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 1

      I think the best control would be just a nice analog joystick. Further you tilt it, the faster it scrolls. Let it snap to default position and it instantly stops.

      Thought about this with fast forwarding on a DVR (which always seems to be the wrong speed), but would work just as well on a keyboard or mouse.

      As for smoothscrolling in current tech, the best I've found is just middleclicking in a browser/some documents and pulling the cursor away from that icon it creates. Further away, the faster it scrolls. It's pretty smooth for me, but depends on your driver/mouse settings of course. For that matter, some mice can smoothscroll by default in some apps, but maybe that lack of standardization is the issue.

      --
      Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
    20. Re:Overlapping windows by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

      I'd rather have reference available too. The problem is one of real estate. It's hard to fit everything you need to on a screen and still have it readable. You stack papers on your desk for the same reason -- that's what happens on my desk, anyway. You can pull two to the top in the latter case because there's room on the "top layer" for both, but this isn't necessarily true on a computer screen. If it is, then there's nothing to stop you. You still have to put the windows (papers) in an arrangement personally convenient for you. It may or may not be possible to do this automatically.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    21. Re:Overlapping windows by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

      On 2 -- there's no reason for shortcuts to be the same across languages, and I don't believe it's generally the case that they are. At least not the way one normally does this kind of thing in Motif; I don't work in Windows much so I don't know. These are not programmed in, but exist in a separate resource file. But I thought that was his exact complaint. makes little sense for "open" in a language where that word doesn't begin with O. So if you switch from English to Portugese, your is now (or should be) and your automatic action to open a file no longer works.

      But yeah, he could have meant it as you read it. He wasn't terribly clear.

      On 3 -- In my experience, a well-designed widget set is perfectly adequate for most user interaction. The only seem inadequate if the programmer is trying to force non-standard behavior. Sometimes this is justified, but mostly it isn't, and I have rarely felt the need. The times I ever strongly felt Motif 1.2 was lacking was when I wanted a a combo box, and when I wanted to specify colors in compound strings. These have both been addressed since.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    22. Re:Overlapping windows by Stalus · · Score: 1

      I agree that there's no technical reason to - and most platforms support including shortcuts as separate resource files, but just because it can be done doesn't mean it is. For one, changing the shortcuts for all of the languages would require additional test since it can introduce key conflicts that aren't on the primary build. Straight translation doesn't have as much of an impact, so apps will just leave it as is to avoid the extra test cost.

      In addition, for the products I've worked on, translation has always been the last step in the process, and is done by translators outside the dev team. Translators aren't about to change the shortcuts in case they introduce a conflict, so then it has to swing back to the devs to pick appropriate shortcuts - more dev cost. And the problem is complicated further by languages like Japanese, where the devs may not even have a keyboard capable of easily creating the keys. So, widget sets just put the mneumonic in parens after the menu item.

      So, my point in all that was that it's not a technical limitation - it's a limitation of process and practicality.

    23. Re:Overlapping windows by tknd · · Score: 1

      I disagree with the mnemonics part, even though in my HCI class it was recommended to use mnemonics for things like menu options. The problem is mnemonics map through the composition of letters that comprise the beginning of a word. Well, I think there are better ways to map things. For example, I think it is much better to map things based on their visual positions. The classic example is you have a stove with four burners and four knobs to control each burner. If you arrange the knobs in a straight line, it becomes confusing which knob maps to which burner. However, if you map the knobs in the same fasion as the burners (a square), then it becomes easier to see visually how the knobs map to each burner. In the ideal case you would have the knobs right next to the burner, but then you risk the user getting burned by trying to reach for knobs that aren't positioned in good places away from the burners.

      The same applies to graphical user interfaces. The interface is graphical, why doesn't it map graphically? Why do I have to think about what letter to use when I want to open something? What if there are two words that have the same first letter?

      Mnemonics for shortcut keys can still be used but their current implementations in current interfaces is broken. Take the example "save" and "save as". "Save as" always gets mapped to some awkward key combination if it even does get mapped. But they both start with "S". Shouldn't I be able to do ctrl+s and then be asked again which option I want out of all commands that start with "s"? The problem with that approach is now you've introduced another step for something that's supposed to be fast. But again, you can fix that by saying ctrl+s twice or some other combination say alt+s will automatically choose the most common option. Not intuitive, but then again if you're at that level you're probably now a power-user and will accept some non-intuitiveness to get work done.

      Everytime I'm presenting some sort of list of items, they should be numbered, and the numbers themselves should be hotkeys as well. For example, I open the 'file' menu and see 'new', 'open', 'save', etc. They're never numbered which is fine I guess, but if they were, then it would look like: "1. new 2. open 3. save" and when I hit '2' on the keyboard, it had better choose the second option. Of course, this breaks when the list gets too large.

      Another thing I have always been annoyed with is various implementations of "alt+tab". Some "alt+tab" programs even show a preview of the window, but I still have to flip through each one. Well guess what, hitting the 'tab' button 3 times sucks. Why can't the software label each window with a symbol (again that maps visually to the layout of the keys on the keyboard just as they appear on the screen) and I instantly hit the button it corresponds to? My left hand is nearly always on the left hand side of the keyboard while most of the time my other hand is on the mouse and overloaded with functions it must do or vice-versa. People haven't correctly considered that if you could balance the work distributed to both hands you might get faster. So hit the corner of the screen with the mouse in the right hand to trigger the 'alt+tab' or other window selection tool while the left hand picks the window while the right hand has time to reposition the mouse away from the corner. I think some programs like expose might do this, maybe I just haven't run into an implementation on a system I use that I could agree with.

      There are many other things that I think can be improved but I think that's enough for now.

    24. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > But if were needing to read from say, a CSS reference page while I wrote a stylesheet, I'd
      > rather have them side by side while I work, and the current implementations for that are
      > rather... crap.

      Multiple monitors. Many machines support them today and all of us have an old monitor in the closet.

    25. Re:Overlapping windows by TheLink · · Score: 1

      1-3 yeah. I usually have everything maximized - but some people seem to like to have stuff paned. I'd rather have shortcut keys that allow me to rapidly switch amongst the past N "windows"[1]

      But 4? I prefer jumpiness. When I want something to happen, I want the computer to do it NOW, not do some silly animation before it does it.

      If I want a smooth scroll, I'd be holding down the scrollbar (great invention that one) and dragging it. But if I want a "page down", I want it to go a page down NOW! If I want to switch to a window, I want to see that window _immediately_ not wait for some stupid animation. If people don't like interstitial ads/cutscenes getting in the way of what they want/are doing, what makes UI designers think that people would like those animations after the 5th time of seeing them? As a compromise, have those animations by default- but allow a "low latency" setting to turn ALL of them off.

      [1] See: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=121349

      --
    26. Re:Overlapping windows by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Uh just curious, why do you need a 0.5 second animation for page turning?

      If I'm reading a book, I'm more interested in the content I'm reading rather than the animations of page turning.

      It's like those TV/interstitial ads. The good ones might be cool the first time you see them, but after a few times, don't you want to be able to skip them and get on with whatever you were doing?

      Well, I guess I must be the strange one around.

      --
    27. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Addressing 1 -- See thi Ion window manager. It's *the* reason I switched away from Windows.

    28. Re:Overlapping windows by bunions · · Score: 1

      > Uh just curious, why do you need a 0.5 second animation for page turning?

      as visual feedback to confirm you actually pressed the 'next page' button. The physical world almost always gives us feedback when we perform an action - in the case of a page turning, a visual, audible and tactile one. Also an olfactory one if the book is musty. Your brain is used to that, so computers should try to reinforce that.

      >If I'm reading a book, I'm more interested in the content
      > I'm reading rather than the animations of page turning.

      that's why it has to be very fast. the problem with the way a lot of UI feedback is implemented is that it's intrusive. you want it so fast that it barely registers - the rapid menu unrolling in KDE or windows is a good example.

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    29. Re:Overlapping windows by rHBa · · Score: 1

      Maximise all windows, ALT+TAB between them if you want to go back to a recently visited window, otherwise disappearing task bar. Quick launch for common apps with "reveal desktop" and file manager/my computer shortcut. Page up/down to jump a page at a time, cursor up/down to scroll.

      Right click context menus, windows classic taskbar.

      Let the holy wars commence...

    30. Re:Overlapping windows by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You make some interesting suggestions, but there are practical issues.

      Take your example of a stovetop. Your observation is a fairly obvious one, but the obstacle is that there isn't room for the knobs to be placed in a square, due to other overriding design considerations. That's why almost no one does that. There is instead a conventional arrangement that is the same from stove to stove, so you only have to learn it once.

      That's one reason the current arrangement of shortcuts would be difficult to change. Everyone knows that <ctrl-o> is Open, <ctrl-s> is Save, etc. If someone decided to do it differently, he'd be bucking the trend of literally thousands of applications and is not likely to be successful. He'll probably just piss off his users instead.

      You dismiss the non-intuitive aspect of this with a simple "but", but I assure you that intuitiveness is very important to users. They prefer intuitive over rational every time, and they don't want to have to be "power users" to take advantage of what should be a simple feature.

      Your idea about the numbers will not only not work for menus with more than 10 items, it would be very annoying for the many applications where the menus are user configurable. Every menu rearrangement would also change the shortcuts. I can't see anyone being happy with that. However-- please note that where you can customize menus, you can also customize shortcuts. Why not do that if you're unhappy with the default arrangement?

      But mapping shortcuts graphically in any meaningful sense obviously can't be done. At that point it's no longer a shortcut -- it's the GUI you were trying to short-circuit with the shortcut in the first place! The fact is there must be some mnemonic or some other very easy-to-remember system, or it simply won't get used. Users always take the simplest path. A shortcut is supposed to be simpler for often-repeated tasks once you're only moderately well-versed in the software. Make it too complex, and it will no longer be simpler than selecting from a menu with a mouse.

      I think a more sensible hand-balancing arrangement for alt-tab would be to keep the key combination with the left side and let you select one of the windows with the right. It surprised me trying it just now (it hadn't occurred to me before) that Windows will not allow you to do this even though you get something that looks like a box full of icons to pick. I seriously doubt most people are interested in (or able to unless they're twitch gamers) to "instantly" hit a number key on being presented with an entirely novel menu. In any event, there's no reason to free up the mouse cursor for repositioning since the most likely target (the window you're trying to switch to) won't be available until the switch is actually made. There's no place to move it to.

      So pay attention to your HCI class. I never took one myself. I'm just speaking from about 20 years' experience in writing apps for users who are often sitting in the same office. When they don't like something about the UI (graphic or otherwise), I get instant feedback.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    31. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In regards to the page down comment....How about the middle mouse button, configured so that if you click it and move the mouse up/down you go up/down. Further down you go the faster it scrolls.
      I think thats a great example of scrolling done extremely well.

    32. Re:Overlapping windows by try_anything · · Score: 1
      4) "Jumpyness" is more natural!

      I agree 100%. Jumpiness makes sense. Computer, and the programs and data that inhabit them, are not physical objects and do not behave like physical objects. UI gurus have been declaring for years that normal human beings cannot accept this and will never understand anything that was not familiar to humans on the savannahs of Africa 100,000 years ago.

      Pointing out that a UI behavior has no counterpart in the "real" world says nothing about whether it will be difficult for people to understand and exploit the behavior. That argument has been discredited by years of experience. The first bogeyman of this type was the word processor convention that text typed into a document was not permanent until the user asked for the file to be saved. This, it was said, would limit the use of word processing to a small group of slightly autistic subhumans who were willing to sacrifice their humanity and live by the machine's laws. (Or so it sounded to me.)

      This bizarre principle, discredited in practice, is still upheld by ideologues who believe that the tendency to create rational systems and mold the world to resemble them is somehow inhuman -- as if the engineers, scientists, car mechanics, accountants, and programmers of the world were not human beings expressing a deeply human trait but monsters weaving a toxic and alien thread into human society.

      Who created the machines? In whose image were they made? A person who has no technical skill, who cannot program a VCR or learn the common GUI conventions, should not be considered more human for it, any more than a person should be considered more human for being unable to sing, dance, or make a child laugh.

    33. Re:Overlapping windows by 10Ghz · · Score: 1

      "When is the last time you used Windows? 3.1? Applications open where they were last placed."

      I just tested this with IE7 and Windows XP. I opened a new IE-window, and it opened on top of the old window, so that just the titlebar of the old window was visible. I moved the new window to another location and closed it. Then I opened a new IE-window. Did it open in the location where I closed the previous window? No. It opened (again) on top of the old window.

      Maybe the initial IE-window opens where the previous one was closed. But any new window you open inside IE gets stacked right on top of the old one. Retarded.

      --
      Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
    34. Re:Overlapping windows by admactanium · · Score: 1
      The problem with this sort of animation is that they're generally not fast enough to be unobtrusive. I don't need a 2-second animation of a page turn, I need a half-second one.
      i don't think it necessarily has to do with the speed or existence of a "page turn" animation. the only efforts i've seen to simulate a page turn in digital form seem like useless eye candy. the content changing should be enough of a visual clue. the main benefit of physical pages is that you have an immediate reference point for where to start reading again: the upper left corner in english.

      reading continuous text on a webpage is confusing whether or not page down is done instantly or with an animation because you generally get just a little bit lost when the page moves. this is especially annoying when the amount of information left below your current position doesn't warrant a whole page, so "page down" really ends up being "5/8 of a page down".
    35. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very good points.
      How about getting rid of most icons as well? What use are they? The only time icons are useful are when they appear on the taskbar: in this case, I, the user, have specifically selected them, so I know what they all represent (plus I use most of them every day (which is why I put them in the taskbar!), so I know what they all do), and they are in this case the only way to represent such a lot of data (i.e. to represent a certain program) in such a small space.
      Look at the icons on your desktop: what is the bloody point of them? They all have to have their name underneath, because who can remember what 30 or 40 different icons mean? GUI interfaces should just have an alphabetical list of programs on the desktop, not stupid icons. They make it ten times harder to find the one I want.

      Re smooth scrolling: why everybody is suddently discussing turning pages in a book is beyond me: you're absolutely right - the GUI should SMOOTH scroll. I hate juddery text, it's bad for the eyes. Smooth scrolling looks 'cool' precisely because it's what our eyes and brains WANT to see.
      Unfortunately, it's beyond the talents of Microsoft to produce such a function.

      If you all want to see the WORST user interface in existence, look at 'Workflows' (a misnomer if ever there was one) by SIRSI/DYNIX - these people are cretins of the highest order. Their 'programmers' (trained chimps, I believe) know nothing at all about user interface design, and obviously don't care either. This program is used by thousands of libraries all over the world, and costs 100s of thousands of pounds, yet its interface is beyond a joke, and costs every single one of those libraries tens of thousands a year in wasted staff time, due to the fact that the interface is so badly set up, the user has to manually edit things to make them the way they should be. For example, when you start the program, you can log in as one of several 'types' - cataloguing, circulations, etc. But the toolbar that you use throughout the program doesn't change to the right type when you log in, it just opens up whatever toolbar the last instance of the program was using, which is normally the wrong one! So every single user, almost every single time, has to manually right click and use a SHIT drop down menu, to change it. Hundreds of thousands of times a year.

      DROP DOWN MENUS! These are the worst invention ever created. Sure, they're great if you're using a 200 x 100 pixel display, but nobody is using that. What point do they serve? To cause irritation and waste millions of hours of people's precious time, that's what. Programmers who use them are cretins. Why force your user to press once (to drop down the box), then have to press again on an up and down arrow (which is, of course, tiny), numerous times, to eventually find what they want? Why not just open up a bloody big WINDOW with all the options in it, so they can just click on it? TWO CLICKS.

      This all comes down to the fact that SOME programmers are insular, self-obsessed idiots, who never ONCE think "I wonder what a newcomer to this program would think about this features", or "I wonder how I could make my program easier to use".

      Read this shit:
      http://www.sirsidynix.com/Resources/Pdfs/Solutions /Products/WorkFlows.pdf

      These cretins think that they're somehow 'cutting edge' because they're - wait for it - using ICONS!
      Wow! Way to go Sirsi...

      Now, perhaps you idiots could try actually asking the users of your shit software how you could improve the interface - by USERS I mean people who actually USE it all day, not the cretinous bosses who employ them, yet know nothing at all about it!

      Every time I have to laboriously pull down a drop down menu, to do something that could be done ten times more quickly, it makes me mad as hell, when I think of the tens of thousands of people all around the world who are using this SHIT software, and all because the

    36. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I remember when some word processors and the like included a "smooth scrolling" option. No one used it. It turned out that most people wanted the screen to scroll quickly instead."

      Like Duh! You do realise that BOTH are possible at the same time?
      Juddering text that moves up the screen is bad for the eyes. That's why people LIKE smooth scrolling. You say "no one used it". Based on what evidence? Talk about anecdotal nonsense!

    37. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I remember when some word processors and the like included a "smooth scrolling" option. No one used it. It turned out that most people wanted the screen to scroll quickly instead."

      Like Duh! You do realise that BOTH are possible at the same time?
      Juddering text that moves up the screen is bad for the eyes. That's why people LIKE smooth scrolling. You say "no one used it". Based on what evidence? Talk about anecdotal nonsense!


      Add me as an anti-smoothscroll data point. The problem though is Windows default implementation. Smooth scrolling is useful when I'm reading and use the scroll wheel, and the amount I've scrolled isn't exactly obvious. Then smooth scrolling tells me how far I've gone. But when I've pressed page up/down, I know I'm only scrolling a page and don't need the slow smooth scroll to tell me that.

      So I end up shutting off smoothscrolling. Except for Firefox, where I use the smoothwheel extension so only scroll wheel scrolling is smooth. Excellent extension.
    38. Re:Overlapping windows by Skrynesaver · · Score: 1
      2. Internationalization and shortcut keys.
      What's so fascinating about this example - is how common it is across platforms, programs, operating systems.
      The feature is called "shortcut keys" and yet everyone is implementing it as "shortcut symbols".
      This is terrible - when you switch between languages, all shortcut keys break!

      I think your point here has been misunderstood. I presume you mean that if you change from English to French that your keymap changes from QWERTY to AZERTY also and now [CTRL]-Z is no longer all in the bottom left, though your muscle memory is. A more extreme example is GA_IE where there is no Z in the alphabet. In the event that keyboards are every produced exclusivly for GA_IE it will be the undoing of us!

      --
      "Linux is for noobs"-The new MS fud strategy
    39. Re:Overlapping windows by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Uh but the visual feedback would be the display of the page itself and the change in the displayed logical page number.

      If for some reason it takes too long to display the page, then maybe the user should get that notorious hour-glass/clock/spinning thing popping up (after 1-2 seconds?). That way you know you did click on the page button.

      I'm strange but I prefer that the page should just be displayed immediately.

      Rapid menu unrolling? I personally find that very annoying - as bad as interstitial ads. I want the menu to be drawn immediately. Same for the pause of hundreds of milliseconds before displaying submenus. On many windows machines I have renamed folders or items in the start-menu to start with numbers (e.g. a folder "2 Tools" containing "Calculator" ), so that you can do stuff like press winkey,1,C to explore the C drive; winkey 2,C opens the calculator; winkey,4 = cmd; and so on (like ssh to various machines). If the menu unrolling gets in the way of that, I'd be pretty annoyed.

      I think users should be allowed to choose a low latency, no time wasting option/theme. I'd rather waste my time on things I chosen to waste time on (e.g. Slashdot) rather than what some UI designer thinks is cool/neat.

      Well I suppose a reasonable compromise would be to display the content/change/page immediately AND have some sort of unobtrusive animation at the same time, rather than have the animation delay the desired action/change (in which case IMO it counts as obtrusive and intrusive).

      I'd rather my multi-GHz CPU computer be slowed down for good reasons rather than for artificial reasons... If there's going to be any procrastination, it should always be done by the user/human and not the computer.

      Then again, I'm the sort of person who regularly thinks that communications at near light speed just isn't fast enough- 200 msec to cross the Pacific Ocean twice? What a terrible lag! ;)

      --
    40. Re:Overlapping windows by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1
      Let's see...

      1. What's gray space? ( a) You make each of the windows small enough to tile them. That makes editing harder as you see less of the image.
        b) You let the windows overlap as you can only edit one image at a time.
        I don't know about you but b) sounds a lot more attractive to me...
      2. ...What? I have no idea what you're talking about, honestly. And yes, I do use both localized and non-localized software. Very few programs (usually older games) assume that 'z' always is next to 'y'.
      3. Qué? I know, list boxes and comboboxes are similar, but they're distinctive enough to each have merit. I don't know what else you could be talking about.
      4. You make your GUI smoothscroll everywhere, but leave mine in peace. When I use PageDn I want to get somewhere quickly. Smoothscrolling yould be decidedly counterproductive. In most other cases the same thing applies.
      There are many trivial things to "fix". However, they're usually not fixed because they aren't broken.
      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    41. Re:Overlapping windows by TheLink · · Score: 1

      alt+tab isn't good enough for me. I often need to switch amongst 3 or more windows at once. So it'll be good to have the feature I linked to.

      e.g.
      alt+1 = ssh to A (tail of logfile?)
      alt+2 = ssh to B (cmd?)
      alt+3 = man page
      alt+4 = RFC
      alt+5 = text editor?

      Then when I want to switch to another set of tasks, I just click their respective buttons in the taskbar and then press alt+0 and the past 9 tasks/windows should get renumbered (1 = most recently selected), and I can rapidly switch amongst the new tasks.

      alt+1 = spreadsheet
      alt+2 = email from boss
      alt+3 = some documentation
      alt+4 = browser with google search results
      alt+5 = browser with slashdot ;)

      I suppose I'm only one of the very few who'd find this feature useful?

      Anyway, I don't really need "reveal desktop", on windows machines I typically have my start menu set up something similar to this:

      Folders/items in base of start menu:
      1 Explore
      2 Tools
      3 email (item not folder)
      4 cmd (item not folder)
      5 ssh

      Then each of those start menu folders have items:
      "1 Explore" has
      1 Explore Desktop
      A Explore A
      C Explore C ...
      "2 Tools" has
      Calculator
      Notepad
      and so on

      This way I can press winkey,1,1 and I'd be exploring the desktop - and I can sort it by "last modified" or other order.
      winkey,2,C = opens the calculator
      winkey,5,A = ssh to machine A
      winkey,5,B = ssh to machine B

      Of course if speed is the essence then repeated numbers should be avoided, pressing two different keys one after the other can usually be done faster than repeated presses of the same key.

      Haven't got around to doing this sort of thing on KDE (seems a bit harder).

      My taskbar is "always on top", I don't like waiting for it to appear when I need it.

      Scroll wheel to scroll...

      --
    42. Re:Overlapping windows by dabadab · · Score: 1

      Well, Ctrl+Z/X/C/V are rather arbitrary, yet they work suprisingly well.
      A shortcut does not have to mean anything but they better be uniform across all languages. It is rather annoying, for example, that UltraEdit's german version uses Alt+E for "Extras", not for the Edit menu (for that, you have to use Alt+B ("Bearbeiten")).
      Anyway, shortcuts have little to no value as actual mnemonics since they often use the nth letter of a word (to use UltraEdit as an example, the shortcut for "Spalte" (block mode) menu is Alt+l).

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    43. Re:Overlapping windows by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      This is terrible - when you switch between languages, all shortcut keys break!

      If you use Qt, it is trivial to translate shortcuts. They are like any other string. Wrap them in tr(), use lupdate utility to extract all those strings, then send the result off to your translators.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    44. Re:Overlapping windows by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      This phonemenon is also felt in list boxes, where you are expected to adjust the column widths manually to not be too short/too long, even when there is an optimal adjustment readily available. You again have to work for the computer, and ask for a ctrl+plus to set it up. Most people don't even know about ctrl+plus in column-listboxes.
      Some programs make it even worse, and don't let you resize their windows when the entire screen is free, and you have to scroll through their data in a little window.


      Although this is a problem specific to Windows. Any decent GUI toolkit (even ones which were around 10 years ago or more) should allow application windows, and all GUI elements, to be resizeable by default. It is very frustrating that Windows is so bad at this.

      "Jumpyness". Today's GUI's all "jump". What I mean by that is that they don't smoothly switch from one state to the next, but rather do that with a single screen refresh. The human mind doesn't read that very well. For example, scrolling down "jumps" down a pageful instead of scrolling down a pageful in a smooth motion.

      I'm not sure what you mean. On Windows, I get smooth scrolling in my browsers (though it's very quick - as I'd want it).

    45. Re:Overlapping windows by Webz · · Score: 1

      Therein lay the balance. You want the visual feedback to be there, but you don't want it to be too long.

      Think of a standard Windows visual alert (if you have accessibility options turned on). The screen border will blink, sorta, whenever there is an audio alert (it's a visual supplement for the hard of hearing). Compare this to OSX which will do the same, but in a "flash" manner, where the blink effect actually dies down and lasts more than two frames (on/off).

      This is the sort of "jumpiness" the OOOP (whatever) was referring to. The OSX flash "jumps less" than a quick BLEEP sort of notifcation.

      The whole jumpiness/smoothness thing is subtle... It's not something you can readily quantify. And it does seem superfluous. Which is why power users, such as yourself, may be accustomed to living with it out. But enhancements like this are generally received as "less harsh" or "more friendly" and just more enjoyable. Very non-technical attributes that give OSX and products like it their coolness feel that users have difficulty quantifying, but are attracted to nonetheless.

      As another example, see the iPod menus. When you click on a menu item on an iPod, the screen actually slides over to the next menu, as if they were shuffling in place, instead of doing what most programmers would implement, a drop in replacement (screen refresh).

    46. Re:Overlapping windows by bunions · · Score: 1

      > Uh but the visual feedback would be the display of the page itself

      Ideal visual feedback would not require you to 'read' the page and notice the content has changed.

      > I'd rather waste my time on things I chosen to waste time on
      > rather than what some UI designer thinks is cool/neat.

      Much like the doctor, a UI expert knows what is good for you, UI-wise, better than you do. I know that goes against the grain of geeks everywhere, but it's true. Besides, I don't think you can seriously call a 200ms animation every page 'a waste of time.'

      > I'd rather my multi-GHz CPU computer be slowed down for
      > good reasons rather than for artificial reasons

      I hardly view more closely approximating reality as "artificial"

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    47. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      Even when it is obvious how to put the papers so they are all seen, the computer waits for YOU to do it.

      Specifying which parts I want to see by clicking on them in some way, allows the computer to arrange the windows for me, according to my specifications.

    48. Re:Overlapping windows by arose · · Score: 1
      Uh but the visual feedback would be the display of the page itself and the change in the displayed logical page number.
      That may be the page after that as well, if you acidentaly press the key twice, IMHO having space and page up/page down scroll screenfulls, but overlapping last/first lines has solved this well, there is no need to enforce pages, in fact it would prevent centring things you want to concentrate on (you can move around a book to do this, but not a monitor).
      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    49. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      If it did show you the mail instead of the gray area of your screen, you can still ignore it.
      If it doesn't show you the mail instead of the gray area, you have to work for around 4-5 seconds to get it to show. When its just 0.5 second to switch between Windows, most people prefer to switch.
      I find switching back and forth between windows when the screen is mostly wasted space absurd.

      There's no problem if you want to tell the computer: "Don't show me this", but you should be able to tell the computer what you want to see, and have the computer do the work of finding a proper arrangement. Arranging graphical sprites in a space so that the wanted ones are seen is a perfectly solvable problem.

    50. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      I agree 100%. Jumpiness makes sense. Computer, and the programs and data that inhabit them, are not physical objects and do not behave like physical objects. UI gurus have been declaring for years that normal human beings cannot accept this and will never understand anything that was not familiar to humans on the savannahs of Africa 100,000 years ago.

      Its not about "making sense", or behaving like physical objects at all.

      Pointing out that a UI behavior has no counterpart in the "real" world says nothing about whether it will be difficult for people to understand and exploit the behavior. That argument has been discredited by years of experience.

      Again, my argument has nothing to do with how things are in the real world.

      The first bogeyman of this type was the word processor convention that text typed into a document was not permanent until the user asked for the file to be saved. This, it was said, would limit the use of word processing to a small group of slightly autistic subhumans who were willing to sacrifice their humanity and live by the machine's laws. (Or so it sounded to me.)

      I never heard of this, and indeed I find the fact I have to click "save" quite an absurd waste of time. The default should be to keep data, not lose it. Irreversible acts, especially ones of loss, should be postponed as much as possible. In that regard, I also believe "deletion" should be replaced with "deprioritize the space" so that it is actually deleted only when that space is required again. Allowing undeletion for as long as possible without mucking around in a recycle bin.

      This bizarre principle, discredited in practice, is still upheld by ideologues who believe that the tendency to create rational systems and mold the world to resemble them is somehow inhuman -- as if the engineers, scientists, car mechanics, accountants, and programmers of the world were not human beings expressing a deeply human trait but monsters weaving a toxic and alien thread into human society.

      Its not about this either.

      Who created the machines? In whose image were they made? A person who has no technical skill, who cannot program a VCR or learn the common GUI conventions, should not be considered more human for it, any more than a person should be considered more human for being unable to sing, dance, or make a child laugh.

      I have no problem with computers offerring "non-intuitive" interfaces if they are more efficient. I have no will to make computers "more human" or "more akin to physical objects".

      I want computers to have efficient interfaces.

      Humans can learn almost anything, but some features of the human mind are innate and hard-wired into its functionality. Take visual processing for example - humans have an immense capacity for visual processing. But all non-blind humans have a much easier time discerning movement from smooth sliding across an area, than by an immediate jump.

      The human mind actually has a built-in, hard-wired function in the brain of identifying graphical movement - and it doesn't work when things jump around, only when they smoothly slide around.
      This can easily and probably was scientifically tested.

      If you are interested, I can write a small program to prove this to you.

    51. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1
      So it's you against The World on the subject of how a UI ought to work. Hmm, I wonder who is more likely to be right.

      I wonder if you are a Buddhist or a Christian.

      1. The computer has no way of knowing, other than via user input, which information is important, and needs to be made viewable. I actually prefer to manually set the size and placement of my windows exactly the way I want them, because I know better than the computer does what I'm trying to accomplish.

      That's true. You know better than the computer what you want to accomplish, or in this case "see". You know why? Because there's currently no way to tell the computer what you want to see. Telling the computer which information you want to see takes a lot less bandwidth (and thus a lot less mouse clicks) than telling the computer how to arrange the windows so you see them all.
      If you actually told the computer which information you wanted to see, by clicking it in a special way (for example, allocate the mid-button, or right-double-click or something), then it could know exactly what you're trying to accomplish and arrange the windows so that they show you valuable data, and not gray pixels.

      2. You're complaining about an edge case. The vast majority of users will only ever use a computing system in their own native language. It doesn't matter to me that the Spanish term for "Save" doesn't start with 's'; in English, Ctrl+S maps nicely to "Save".

      I'm complaining about a very common case in my country. Here in Israel we intermix Hebrew and English all the time. I suspect this is true in almost all internationalized setups, because:
      • Many programs only expose English interfaces.
      • English is the "official" language on many subjects.
      • Many terms come from English.

      Not only this, but some programs have Hebrew interfaces available, while some have English ones. So "Save" is sometimes "ctrl-s", and sometimes "ctrl-(Hebrew-shin)", which is ctrl-a.

      When I press a shortcut key, it either:

      • Does not work because I'm in the wrong language.
      • Even worse: Does something else entirely because I'm in the wrong language.

      A "shortcut key" is always remembered, because you have to know its function and which letter was chosen (often not the first letter is chosen). So it doesn't really matter if save is Ctrl-s, or "f2" (as it was in Borland), as long as its a consistent, universal key.

      If I need to check which language I'm in, switch languages, and then switch back to press a shortcut key, it might as well be named a longcut key!

      3. I am interested to know which UI widgets you feel are superfluous. Running through the common ones (text boxes, menus, radio buttons, sliders, et al) in my head, I find each one to have a reasonable logical and/or graphical justification for existing. So what confuses you?

      Radiobuttons are redundant to icon-sets you choose from, and have no visual cue of where you can press. Sometimes pressing the text works, sometimes it doesn't.
      Tabs are redundant to "configuration listboxes" where you switch between listbox items and the whole window is replaced.
      Drop-down menus are redundant to simple windows containing the options.
      Combo-boxes are very annoying, in that they drop-down a tiny menu where often there are many options and the screen is, as usual, free. I need to scroll through that tiny space, and any mistake closes the menu and loses my scroll point.

      4. I want a UI to react to my commands as quickly as possible. If I hit "page down", I want to see the next page now; I don't want to wait 2 seconds as the content smoothly scrolls to the new location. And if UIs were designed so that they did this, I suspect you'd be searching for the option to turn it back off as well.

      The smooth scrolling, and other smooth movements can be very fast. See for example how kpdf (KDE's pdf reader) smooth scrolls when it finds text. It is MUCH more

    52. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      What's gray space? ( a) You make each of the windows small enough to tile them. That makes editing harder as you see less of the image.
        b) You let the windows overlap as you can only edit one image at a time.
        I don't know about you but b) sounds a lot more attractive to me...


      You should be able to tell the computer what you want to see. If its more important for you to see the first image in full than to see the second image at all, then just tell the computer "this part is important", "this is not" (with about 2 gestures), rather than clicking and dragging about 5 times to tell the computer the same information more redundantly.

      What? I have no idea what you're talking about, honestly. And yes, I do use both localized and non-localized software. Very few programs (usually older games) assume that 'z' always is next to 'y'.

      Localized software often uses Ctrl-[random key here] for save, because that random key, in that particular localized language, happens to be the first letter of the word "save" in that particular language.
      I want uniform, non-language-dependent shortcut keys. I want ctrl-s to work in all programs and no matter what language I'm in now.

      Qué? I know, list boxes and comboboxes are similar, but they're distinctive enough to each have merit. I don't know what else you could be talking about.

      I have replied to this point in various other posts.

      You make your GUI smoothscroll everywhere, but leave mine in peace. When I use PageDn I want to get somewhere quickly. Smoothscrolling yould be decidedly counterproductive. In most other cases the same thing applies.

      Again, smooth scrolling can be fast. See kpdf's search as an example.

    53. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      But 4? I prefer jumpiness. When I want something to happen, I want the computer to do it NOW, not do some silly animation before it does it.

      The animations are not meant to be "cute" or slow things down. In fact they can be very fast, as demonstrated by kpdf's search feature.

      The animations are meant to make use of the human brain's great capacity to discern visual movement when it is not jumpy.

      This capacity is completely wasted in today's UI's because they jump too fast for the brain to track what happened, and you get disoriented.

      The most disorienting example, I believe, is when you search for text in a document, and it scrolls horizontally and vertically as part of that search. You have absolutely no idea where you are after that happens.
      This is even far worse when the search is incremental, and the screen jumps completely with every letter or backspace you press.

    54. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      If you use Qt, it is trivial to translate shortcuts. They are like any other string. Wrap them in tr(), use lupdate utility to extract all those strings, then send the result off to your translators.

      This is not a solution, it is a workaround. It has to be done correctly in for every key in every language, and takes enough work that it isn't really done.

      The real solution is that key presses generate events containing the untranslated key code pressed, not the unicode character of the current language, and that is used for shortcut activation.

    55. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1
      Unless you're using an extremely poor window manager, it hides the gray areas. Either that or you need to go into your KDE or Gnome preferences where you can specify this.

      What are you using? IIRC this was considered a significant innovation in window managers when I was finishing college in the 90s; but certainly hasn't been a problem for at least a decade.


      I use Windows at the office and KDE at home.
      Indeed KDE does not overlap windows when it doesn't have to, and this is a great improvement, but it still has problems:
      • It only places new windows in correct positions. It does not maintain their correctness as windows get created and deleted.
      • Being a window manager, and not knowing what goes on inside windows, it doesn't know what space is wasted inside windows.

      The second point would require a large architectural change to fix, but I believe it is worth it. I believe the GUI should be aware of the entire widget hierarchy, and not just the top-level windows. Then it should be possible to use unused space not just at the window-level.
    56. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      1. It's not bankrupt at all. Overlapping windows are very useful in filtering out which data you're currently paying attention to. I'm not the only one who is more productive without the distraction of superfluous information. On my Mac I run Backdrop, which is simply a solid black window which I bring to the front to cover windows I'm not working with. Additionally, I run SpiritedAway which hides windows that are idle. I can quickly add windows to an exception list to prevent this from happening when it's undesirable. In truth, I wish more applications had a fullscreen mode, without extraneous window boundaries and menu bars.

      Its not the overlap that's useful, its the arrangement of multiple windows. The computer can arrange the windows for you. You can do the easy part (click or gesture "This is important", "this is not") and the computer can do the hard part of resizing and moving things around.

      2. Obviously this is largely related to mnemonics over position. How do you determine what keyboard layout gets the most symbolic shortcut layout while the rest are merely positional? That said, shortcut keys are there to provide quick access to common actions, not inductive/intuitive paths.

      Shortcut keys are to be remembered. They ingrain themselves in the human motoric memory, or they are not faster or more useful. When they are there, it doesn't matter if its Ctrl-s, or Alt-NumPad1, as long as its consistent and universal, and not dependent on which language I'm currently in.

      4. Plenty of GUIs have smooth scrolling or transitional animations. Some are intrusive, some are appealing, but in general, once people are doing a task repetitively they are impatient and want it to happen quickly and crisply. With the exception of tracking moving objects, our eyes jump around and jerk quickly, so we're completely suited to it. Plenty of people feel very comfortable with the speed of a jerky page up/page down and find scrollbars tedious.

      Tracking moving objects, as you said, is what our brain is well suited at. The jerking around completely destroys this ability.
      I believe most smooth-scrolls and other smooth animations until today were simply done incorrectly and too slowly.
      A correct implementation would start moving at a high speed, and slow down near the end, so that for about 0.3 of the 0.5 seconds of the scroll you can already read the text although its moving. The brain is very good at deciphering movement like this, and kpdf's search is a great example of this feature.

    57. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      Although this is a problem specific to Windows. Any decent GUI toolkit (even ones which were around 10 years ago or more) should allow application windows, and all GUI elements, to be resizeable by default. It is very frustrating that Windows is so bad at this.

      You addressed the second part of my point.
      The first part, where you still have to resize things even when there is an optimal arrangement in which you can see all of the information on a single screenful or space available, stands even in the most modern Gtk+ and Qt versions.

    58. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      I think your point here has been misunderstood. I presume you mean that if you change from English to French that your keymap changes from QWERTY to AZERTY also and now [CTRL]-Z is no longer all in the bottom left, though your muscle memory is. A more extreme example is GA_IE where there is no Z in the alphabet. In the event that keyboards are every produced exclusivly for GA_IE it will be the undoing of us!

      Indeed. Here in Israel, when I switch from English to Hebrew, none of the English keys are available in the Hebrew keyboard, and I have to switch languages for shortcut keys to work.
      I call them longcut keys :-P

    59. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      Overlapping windows are used to make more information available to the user than can be displayed on the available screen real estate. The RL metaphor is a collection of papers on a desk. You can't see every paper all at once, but you bring to the top of the pile those which you need. You do this for your own benefit, based on the needs of the moment, not for that of the desk -- or the computer. The whole point is that the space isn't tiled. I don't like working that way personally, and I suspect the reason we've moved away from that model is because most people don't. Remember the early Windows versions?

      I don't believe in designing GUI's based on real-life metaphores. Its just not possible to have the papers on my desk automatically tile themselves according to my needs. Maybe that's why I'm not using papers anymore, but a computer.
      Ofcourse you can't see everything at once, and I don't think automatic tiling should try to show you everything (as it currently does in current menus, making it useless).
      I believe that you should tell the computer, with a few gestures, which windows (or better, which parts of which windows) what's important to you now, and what's not. Example gestures could be double-right-click or middle-click, or visible clickable areas.
      Then the computer should tile the windows such that the more important data is visible.
      You could add a feature based on an excellent suggestion of someone on this discussion, of automatic zoom-in/zoom-out of windows such that what's currently important fits.
      Ofcourse as you work you readjust what's important and what's not, and the computer rearranges the window.
      Note that if this rearrangement is jerky (via a single screen refresh) it will not be usable, and it must use a quick visible smooth movement for the rearrangement so you aren't disoriented by it.

      You asked how much of the screen was empty space and therefore wasted? Very little of it, most likely. Very little of mine is as I type. Space with no content in it is not necessarily wasted. In fact, it most likely isn't. Space is crucial to how our brains orgainize what we see. If every square inch of space on the screen was being used, we'd see it as a jumbled mess. The best and most eye-pleasing data presentation use of designs very carefully balance empty space against that occupied by content. Take, for example, your original post against my reply. See how I create spaces between my paragraphs with properly structured P tags? See how much more readable that is?

      Spacing is a special type of symbol, which allows for logical separation to be expressed, and I agree it is important. But saying that gray areas are used for this purpose, is simply wrong. Take a look at arbitrary random screenshots, and you will find that most of the screen is showing gray semi-rectangular areas that are not even separating anything from anything else, they're just a product of misarrangement. Proper arrangement of windows is so tedious that only when you absolutely must see both windows at once, you actually do this. This is evidence that the model is not working efficiently.

      About my lacking paragraphs, point taken. :-)

      I never claimed to be a talented English writer.

      I agree that some programs are badly designed and make poor use of the model. That doesn't mean the model itself is broken.
      Yes, it would be nice for those very particular about their screen arrangements if they could save state between sessions and recover it immediately when they start back up again. This is an implementation issue 00 remembering, of course, that most people prefer not to tile.


      Persistency of the arrangement is not the issue. The simple tediousness of arranging is the problem. The fact is that what governs our actual arrangement of windows on screen is very little data (which widgets are important, which aren't -- a few booleans, and in cases of large text sections and images, there's perhaps another coordinate, of how much of the text/image

    60. Re:Overlapping windows by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

      "Obvious"? What does that mean? How's the computer supposed to know which of the many open windows on your desktop are the ones you want to be working with?

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    61. Re:Overlapping windows by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      You should be able to tell the computer what you want to see. If its more important for you to see the first image in full than to see the second image at all, then just tell the computer "this part is important", "this is not" (with about 2 gestures), rather than clicking and dragging about 5 times to tell the computer the same information more redundantly.

      Actually, your two gestures are what's redundant, at least if there's frequent switching involved. If I want to bring the second window to the front make a single click at the small non-overlapped area of the second image and it's there. I click on the non-overlapped area of the first image and it comes back. Also, the way I arrange my windows uually has some sort of plan to it, which might be hard to express to the computer. Bringing Firefox to the top, then bringing the GIMP to the top and arranging the windows so I can still read that part of the website (and have the tools where I want them) I need to see while working on the image is a matter of a couple clicks and some drags - it requires neither thinking nor much time. Telling the computer that this specific area of Firefox has to be visible but I still want to see all GIMP windows and the main GIMP window has to be on the left of the current image, which has to be on the left of the layer browser is a lot more work.

      Autopositioning might be a nice idea for some people but everyone who spends a lot of time with a program tends to develop a need for some elements to be at just the right position. When these elements have their own windows (like in the GIMP) autopositioning tends to get in the way. While it's not impossible to tell the computer how the windows should be positioned just putting them there is more intuitive and takes less time.


      Localized software often uses Ctrl-[random key here] for save, because that random key, in that particular localized language, happens to be the first letter of the word "save" in that particular language.
      I want uniform, non-language-dependent shortcut keys. I want ctrl-s to work in
      all programs and no matter what language I'm in now.

      So essentially you want all languages to use English shortcuts because that would be easier for you, ignoring the non-english-speaking users? Yeah, it's sure going to be fun explaining to a German user where the D in "löschen" is. And don't try to tell me that all users smart enough to use a computer without assistance speak English. We have quite a lot of smart middle-school kids over here who are much more comfortable with German than with English. Heck, nowadays we have elementary school kids commonly using PCs (as well as the elderly and people who just aren't good with foreign languages). I don't think they should be expected to learn seemingly-random keystrokes just because that's more comfortable to you.
      Additionally, many programs offer customizable shortcuts. So please set up things how you like them and don't try to change the default settings for everyone just to accomodate for your tastes.


      Again, smooth scrolling can be fast. See kpdf's search as an example.

      Yeah, there smooth scrolling does make sense. However, it does not make sense everywhere - if it was applied to PgDn, however, it would cost unnecessary time and actually make the feature harder to use as, when you press the key multiple times, you don't immediately know how far it's going to scroll.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    62. Re:Overlapping windows by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      How about a pressure sensitive scroll button, the harder I press the faster it scrolls and scrolling both starts instantly when I press and stops when I depress. Or how about a scroll wheel that actually scrolls smoothly instead of just sending up/down events on every click?

      The problem with that is that it'd either require an analof keyboard (= extremely expensive and probably not very durable) or an external analog input (either something like a PowerMate or an analog joystick as the sibling said) and software support for that.
      Actually, the second one might be possible - however, analog input would have to be supported on the GUI toolkit level. You might want to submit patches to the GTK folks and Trolltech - maybe they'd include the stuff and make their toolkits analog capable. That might be a nice Summer of Code project...

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    63. Re:Overlapping windows by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Actually, how is it even going to know what each window contains? Or how you want them to be positioned? I think it's going to be decades until a computer can look at the open windows, understand what they're showing, infer what and how the user wants to see and position the windows accordingly.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    64. Re:Overlapping windows by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

      A real-life metaphor is only a starting point. Clearly you can't take it very far, but as an analogy in a disucssion it might be more helpful.

      Again, you describe implementation details for a feature that some people might find useful. It does not demonstrate that the model as it stands is "bankrupt" -- whatever that was supposed to mean. But really, it's "tedious" to spend a few seconds arranging windows? On the scale of tedious things I have to deal with, this is notably low.

      Of course people don't consciously use mnemonics once they get used to an interface, but they have a great deal to do with how people learn the shortcuts in the first place. Yes, the some of the standard edit shortcuts appear to break this, but they don't really. "C" is reasonable for "Copy". "X" physically resembles the mark you make to indicate content you want removed. "V" resembles the caret used to indicate insertions. "Z" may not be obvious for Undo, but once you remember that, "Y" is easy to remember for Redo. Then again, I'm speaking in generalities. There are always exceptions.

      I have no idea what these are in other languages -- but deciding on them is not necessarily the responsibility of the programmer. Hard-coding them is poor practice and is rarely done. Again, if you want it to be something other than the default arrangement in whatever languages you use, you can almost always change it. That LCD keyboard someone mentioned might be the thing, to indicate shortcuts across languages regardless of what mnemonics are useful in them individually. Time was when many word processors came with (or had available) a set of keycaps you could install in your keyboard so as to keep track of all the function keys. This was before GUIs, when menus weren't so easily implemented or useful, which meant that all functionality required what we now call a "shortcut". Part of the point of a GUI was to get away from such things. I think an unexpected benefit of the GUI was the standardization we now see (at least in English) of the more common of those function keys that remained.

      Spacing between paragraphs isn't a matter of English composition, but of proper XHTML use. Enclose paragraphs in <p></p> pairs to get it to work properly.

      Looking at my screen right now, I see precious little space that's not being used either for content or for useful spacing. I don't know how you normally set up your desktop, but it must be vastly different from mine.

      I agree with you about the redundant widgets, of course. I wonder if it's not too much to ask for a little programmer discipline when it comes to these things.

      It may well be possible now to implement smooth scrolling and other smooth transitions in such a way as to encourage acceptance. But remember that until relatively recently, computers generally didn't have much power to spare, and that even the graphics operations required for windows to be usable required what was, at the time, specialized hardware. It's certainly possible now, but implementation will have to wait until someone feels like doing it.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    65. Re:Overlapping windows by TheLink · · Score: 1

      "The most disorienting example, I believe, is when you search for text in a document, and it scrolls horizontally and vertically as part of that search. You have absolutely no idea where you are after that happens"

      No idea? Uh see the scrollbar on the right? That tells you where you are and you can use it to control where you are.

      The scrollbar's a brilliant invention, wish they'd come up with more stuff as good as that, rather than silly animations or wobbly windows (what the?! 1960s got us NLS, multimedia teleconferencing, the mouse, lots of other stuff, and in 2000 we get wobbly windows? Crap!).

      The part I don't like about many (not all) search dialogs is it's hard to quickly go back to the previous search- "hey, wait a minute let's go back to the prev item found". Firefox allows you, but IE doesn't. And IE is terrible - it seems to lose the position of the search easily - if you click on the content it starts the search from the TOP! Not from the cursor, not from the previous search, the top!

      As for animations being fast, to me if they delay the onset of the action, they're not fast enough. Let them run in parallel if you want, but to delay the execution of something just to show me some animation is annoying to me. Unless you're playing some game, and it's to simulate something.

      --
    66. Re:Overlapping windows by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Most people don't have to read a page to notice that the content has changed.

      Heck, I often don't even need to read a page to spot typos and errors, sometimes spot them in less than a second (I've declined in recent years - too much typo-ridden slashdot I guess). I think there are other slashdotters who can actually read content very fast.

      Well doc, I'm telling you it's annoying, even if it's "only" 200ms. 200ms is very perceptible - it's LAGGY. If a UI expert doesn't think 200ms of latency is an issue, I don't think much of that UI expert.

      200msec is "dial up modem" grade UI. HPB territory. Sure it's usable, but it still sucks to be using it.

      'I hardly view more closely approximating reality as "artificial"'

      If UI designers keep trying to approximate reality rather than improve it, no wonder UIs suck!

      Sheesh. Have we run out of people like Douglas Englebart and the other bunch who invented the scrollbar?

      --
    67. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      No idea? Uh see the scrollbar on the right? That tells you where you are and you can use it to control where you are.

      You are missing the point.

      If I have to divert my eyes, and research where I am, comparing to a remembered scroll bar position, in order to know where I moved by the search - then I am wasting a few seconds, which is a hell of a lot longer than the 0.2 seconds I wait for an animation before I can read.

    68. Re:Overlapping windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you have peripheral vision? Peripheral vision works well for changes

      A better objection would be for really huge and long documents where the scrollbar movement is less likely to be as prominent- and the scrollbar would be the minimum size.

      Maybe more people should get 10 years of practice and training to become experts at seeing and reading things quickly!

    69. Re:Overlapping windows by bunions · · Score: 1

      > Well doc, I'm telling you it's annoying, even if it's "only" 200ms

      200ms is a number I made up. There's a number out there that will simultaneously provide a decent amount of feedback and be unintrusive.

      >If UI designers keep trying to approximate reality rather than improve it, no wonder UIs suck!

      your brain is well-adapted to the real world. To not take advantage of millions of years of evolution is foolish.

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    70. Re:Overlapping windows by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      The real solution is that key presses generate events containing the untranslated key code pressed, not the unicode character of the current language, and that is used for shortcut activation.

      What good is the untranslated key code? For example, if a shortcut is Ctrl+E in English, and Ctrl+D in German, then someone has to translate that! Someone has to map Ctrl+E to "English" and Ctrl+D to "Deutsch". At some level the shortcuts MUST be translated, because the keycode for Ctrl+D won't get magically converted to the keycode Ctrl+E. No amount of wishing can change this. It doesn't matter if the keycodes are represented as strings, ints or something else, someone has to translate them!

      Qt's method of translating the string representation of the keycode works and works well. The fact that QStrings are unicode is beside the point.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    71. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      I think we misunderstand each other.

      If the shortcut is Ctrl-(4th key from the left, 3rd key from the top), then the untranslated key code is exactly what you want.

      I am asserting that such key shortcuts are superior to symbolic shortcuts where the symbol is the shortcut and it breaks when you switch input languages.

    72. Re:Overlapping windows by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      If the shortcut is Ctrl-(4th key from the left, 3rd key from the top), then the untranslated key code is exactly what you want

      But what makes you think that Ctrl-(4th key from the left, 3rd key from the top) is going to be an appropriate keycode? On my US QWERTY keyboard it is "F", but on a US Dvorak keyboard it is "U". Even without internationalization you've just screwed up the lives US Dvorak users who want to press Ctrl-F to bring up the Find dialog.

      Shortcuts are symbolic because it makes them easier to remember. With your method you need to ship a keyboard overlay with the software. But even that won't work, because a different keyboard layout will have different scancodes.

      If you translate key shortcuts, then you DO NOT have worry about shortcuts breaking when you switch langauges. You have to translate the menu items anyway, so what's so freaking hard about translating the shortcuts at the same time?

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    73. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      But what makes you think that Ctrl-(4th key from the left, 3rd key from the top) is going to be an appropriate keycode? On my US QWERTY keyboard it is "F", but on a US Dvorak keyboard it is "U". Even without internationalization you've just screwed up the lives US Dvorak users who want to press Ctrl-F to bring up the Find dialog.

      Our motor/muscle memory is what's important, not the symbolic memory.

      If you're still thinking "... I need find.. hmm .. find[0]->'f', AH, it must be Ctrl+F" then it must be faster to use a menu or icon.
      Shortcut keys are for faster access.
      It doesn't matter WHAT key it is, as long as it doesn't break when switching languages and that it is not context sensitive. i.e: I don't have to look at what language I am and then choose the shortcut according to the correct language, not to mention remember the shortcut in the various languages.

      Dvorak users will easily handle Ctrl-U as "find", just like they handle Ctrl-V as "paste". I don't think this will "screw their lives".
      Writing a Hebrew document, switching to an English word and then trying to use a shortcut which doesn't work because I'm in English mode temporarily - now that's closer to screwing up my life, or at least my sanity :-)

      If you translate key shortcuts, then you DO NOT have worry about shortcuts breaking when you switch languages. You have to translate the menu items anyway, so what's so freaking hard about translating the shortcuts at the same time?

      Wait a minute here. Say my Microsoft Word is in English. It has a shortcut key, Alt-F for "File" menu.

      I write an English document. I switch to Hebrew to write one Hebrew word. I am still in Hebrew. Now I want to open the "File" menu, what do I need to do? (Remember its supposed to be a "shortcut" key).

    74. Re:Overlapping windows by try_anything · · Score: 1
      The human mind actually has a built-in, hard-wired function in the brain of identifying graphical movement - and it doesn't work when things jump around, only when they smoothly slide around. This can easily and probably was scientifically tested.
      It can and was tested by the invention of motion pictures over a century ago. When the brain sees identical objects appearing in different places at different times, it recognizes them as the same object and infers that they have moved. All it takes is sufficiently quick refresh. Modern graphics hardware is plenty fast, much faster than the framerate of motion pictures. In fact, most GUIs that tout "smooth scrolling" as a nifty feature -- IE being a notorious example -- simply slow down the scrolling to an annoying speed, because if scrolling is quick and responsive you can't tell the difference between "smooth" and "jumpy."
    75. Re:Overlapping windows by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      I am so so glad you're not designing user interfaces.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    76. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1

      Israelis cannot use shortcuts when writing English/Hebrew documents.

      I present this problem, and instead of presenting a solution, what you have to say is that you are a silly little person who has nothing intelligent to say.
      That's just great!

    77. Re:Overlapping windows by Peaker · · Score: 1
      You are correct: The scroll-via-scrollbar is fine and smooth.

      However, I was referring to other types of scrolling:
      • Page-downs.
      • Searches.
      • Other types of jumping around.
      • Automatic Window rearrangements
      • Many other moves which are currently "jerky" but could be smooth instead.

    78. Re:Overlapping windows by try_anything · · Score: 1

      I include page-downs in the category of things where nicely snappy smoothness should be visually indistinguishable from jerkiness.

      Jumping around should be jumpy when there are no sensible intermediate states. Progressive search or hopping to the beginning of the next paragraph, for instance, should happen instantaneously. Why show the cursor zipping along through the intervening text or show the document scrolling? This might help a new user understand the concept of finding the next match, but that is a rare and minor problem at best. When performing progressive search through a large document, such as when viewing a large manual as a single web page or consulting a 500 page PDF reference manual, the implementation must choose between being blindingly fast or inconveniently slow. In smaller documents, smooth scrolling might help the user see where the jump is taking them, but asking the user to infer location from motion is asking them to perform integration. It's friendlier to provide a static indicator of approximately where in the document the jump has taken them. A scrollbar does this nicely.

      I agree with you on automatic window rearrangements, because many windows look basically alike, and rearrangement can cause a window to resize, appear, or disappear. Motion helps the user's brain connect a window's new appearance and location with its old appearance and location faster than the user could figure it out by inspecting the content of the windows.

  8. The Future is easy to predict here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the long term, we'll be communicating with computers the same way we communicate with our pets, kids, and coworkers - with a combination of body language, voice, gestures, etc.

    In the short term, we'll see Longhorn slowly and sloppily copy whatever Apple's doing; and we'll see KDE and Gnome both copying the bad parts of what the Gnome and KDE are doing respectively; and we'll see all real computer users using emacs/vi/pine/xterm/screen like they always did.

    1. Re:The Future is easy to predict here. by identity0 · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself - I speak to my coworkers and kids with beatings and profanity.

      Come to think of it, I can do that today!

      The Future Is Now!

    2. Re:The Future is easy to predict here. by grumbel · · Score: 1
      In the long term, we'll be communicating with computers the same way we communicate with our pets, kids, and coworkers - with a combination of body language, voice, gestures, etc.

      I am not so sure about that, for some things of course voice and gestures are great, but the computer isn't just a dog or a coworker, its also a tool and I neither talk or gesticulate to my screwdriver, instead I pick it up and get the job done with it myself, since thats simply a lot faster then trying to explain what and how something should be done. And if I try to explain something to a coworker a simple pen and a quick sketch can also do wonders compared to just talk and gestures. So I don't expect the keyboard or mouse to disapear anytime soon, they might get improved and enhanced, but I don't think they will ever completly disapeare, unless of course we get a direct-to-brain-interface that actually works.

      One simple thing I expect to happen in the near future would be mice that supports rotations, optical mice already have all the data they need to detect it, so it would be relativly easy to add and could provide some instant benefits, ie. instead of just grabing an item to move it, you could also rotate it without toggling the drag-mode first, simply rotate the mouse and be done with it. This might also get important with zooming interfaces, Expose and the new XGL stuff already has pleny of zooming build-in so the next step to provide a fully zoomable desktop isn't that far away. Since zooming requires yet another axis, mouse rotation might be used for that, since its an easy way to do it in a way that doesn't require even more buttons on the mouse.

    3. Re:The Future is easy to predict here. by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      >Since zooming requires yet another axis, mouse rotation might be used for that
      I'd be perfectly happy to replace my current functionality on the mousewheel for zoom.
      Virtual screens are available through other motions, anyway.

      Zoom the desktop when not pointing at a program, and a key to hold down to make it all zoom
      while in a program.

  9. NLS demo = state-of-the-art in 1968 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WOW! Doug Engelbart (the speaker) was already using an electret microphone in 1968, right after it went into production! They used the latest high-tech bling in that demo!

    1. Re:NLS demo = state-of-the-art in 1968 by Easy2RememberNick · · Score: 1

      And right after the conference I bet someone said after seeing it, "Wow doesn't that microphone make him look pretentious?"

  10. One of the coolest things... by scorp1us · · Score: 2, Informative

    Was a memory storage system that consisted of liquid mercury. A speaker at one end would cause waves to travel the length of the vat of mercury. At the other end, it was measured by a inducer(microphone) and re applified then sent back to the speaker. If you wanted to change a bit, you had to wait for it to come around and short it to ground, or inroduce a tone. Your amount of memoery was limited by the length of your tube and the viscosity of the mercury.

    --
    Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
    1. Re:One of the coolest things... by lakiolen · · Score: 1

      Are you prehaps thinking of the computer that Lawrence Pritchard Waterhouse built in the book "Cryptonomicon"?

      --


      What are you expecting to find here?
    2. Re:One of the coolest things... by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      Temperature was important as well.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    3. Re:One of the coolest things... by gary+chund · · Score: 1

      "... limited by the length of your tube and the viscosity of the mercury."

      The link between GUI design and Pornography, by jove he's cracked it!

    4. Re:One of the coolest things... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, delay line memory actually existed, for real, pretty much exactly as described.

    5. Re:One of the coolest things... by mincognito · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is a form of delay line memory used by the Univac 1.

    6. Re:One of the coolest things... by Excors · · Score: 1

      There were some of them in EDSAC back in 1949.

      From reminiscences:

      Gordon at this time was working on a memory bank for EDSAC, which was several tubes about 6ft long 1" diameter 1/8" wall, filled with mercury and a crystal at each end. (What would health and safety say now to the mercury globules in the floorboards?)
    7. Re:One of the coolest things... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, who wants to make the Ted Stevens reference?

    8. Re:One of the coolest things... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      What does this have to do with the user interface? WTH? Have the moderators completely missed that this, while interesting, is 100% off-topic?

    9. Re:One of the coolest things... by roseacres · · Score: 1

      It wasn't a speaker, it was an electron moving through the tank of mercury. At the time, core memory was in an oil bath and tape drives had springs on buffer reels instead of vacuum columns. The cpu had a sump under it to collect the condesation from the vacuum tubes - but what does any of this have to do with UI. Interesting that no one seems to remember XEROX PARC - where Apple liberated most of their ideas for a GUI.

  11. Nobody's paying attention by quokkapox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At least not to common consumer devices. I cannot even count the number of remote controls, microwaves, cellphones, dishwashers, ATMs, and other devices which are seem to be designed completely without thought for the human who will need to use them.

    Remote controls - ever heard of making the buttons distinguishable by FEEL, so I don't have to look down to tell whether I'm going to change the volume or accidentally change the channel or stop recording?

    Microwaves - make the buttons we use all the time bigger and obvious. I can't use my microwave oven in near dark because the stupid thing's start button is indistinguishable from the power level button. That's just dumb. I don't need two different buttons that say "Fresh vegetable" and "Frozen vegetable" which I never use; and I have to babysit the popcorn anyway, so I don't need a "popcorn" button hardcoded for some random time limit. A microwave should have a keypad for entering time and bigger buttons labeled +1minute, +10seconds, ON, and OFF. That's all 99% of people use anyway.

    The people who design interfaces should be made to use them for long enough so that they work out at least the most obvious design flaws.

    I keep putting off buying a new cellphone because I know I will have to learn a new interface even to set the freaking alarm clock and it will probably take six menu choices to do it.

    --
    it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
    1. Re:Nobody's paying attention by Lugae · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have two more:

      1. The gas pump that once you pick up the pump the prices disappear asking you to "Select Product."

      2. The ATM that the button that you used to press "Withdrawl" on the next screen would withdraw $200. Shouldn't that go to the smallest amount or a "Go Back" button?

    2. Re:Nobody's paying attention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact, I think only two buttons are needed for microwaves: add-a-minute-and-turn-on-at-full-power, and open door. These are the only two buttons I ever use.

    3. Re:Nobody's paying attention by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Remote controls - ever heard of making the buttons distinguishable by FEEL, s"
      I haven't seen a remote control where the buttons weren't easily navigatable by feel in years.

      On my microwave the 1 minute, start are distinguishable from each other. Not in the dark, but who microwaves in the dark?

      "The people who design interfaces should be made to use them for long enough so that they work out at least the most obvious design flaws."
      the more you use it, the more intuitive it starts to seem to be.
      They could use some UI tester though.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Nobody's paying attention by grumbel · · Score: 1
      At least not to common consumer devices. I cannot even count the number of remote controls, microwaves, cellphones, dishwashers, ATMs, and other devices which are seem to be designed completely without thought for the human who will need to use them.

      One doesn't even need to look at all thoes high tech products to find bad user interface design, even something as simple as a door can be done extremly bad. Ever tried to push one that you needed to pull thanks to the fact that both side actually look the same? And faucets are not much better either, things like having seperate nobs for warm and cold water are still very common, they are not hard to understand, they however make it nearly impossible to actually get water out of the faucets with a desired temperature, since it all turns into a mixing game. Or hobs whose controls make it very non-obvious which control maps to which burner and such, The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman has a ton more example of simple things that are designed horribly.

    5. Re:Nobody's paying attention by EvilIdler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Analog knobs rock. Heavily computerised interfaces outside actual
      computers can be very annoying. Get a nice, cheap Korean microwave :)

    6. Re:Nobody's paying attention by Dr.+Zowie · · Score: 1

      Sanyo makes a consumer level microwave/grill that is currently available at Target for about $100. The interesting UI feature is the stripped down user interface that has an analog knob to set the (digital) time.

    7. Re:Nobody's paying attention by RajivSLK · · Score: 1

      Actually, microwaves can be way better than that. My microwave has a really cool interface. Rather than a keypad it has a wheel that you rotate to indicate the time. Time increases in 10 seconds increments. The wheel is speed and acceleration sensitive. When the microwave is running simply spin the wheel to add or substract time. Popcorn not quite done? Spin the wheel and add 30 seconds. Want to use it in the dark? It's a giant wheel with two buttons next to it "start" and "stop".

      It's so simple that a completely blind person could use it. Simply rotate the wheel slowly and listen for the very soft audiable "clicks" that indicate and increase in time.

      Also, this particular model has a builtin convection oven. The perfect microwave.

    8. Re:Nobody's paying attention by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I can't use my microwave oven in near dark because the stupid thing's start button is indistinguishable from the power level button.

      Better question: WHY THE HELL ARE MICROWAVES DIGITAL? What part of "close the door and turn the dial" was so hard for people to understand, and how did typing in digits help? Microwaves aren't phones.

      Was it the extra precision? People need to be sure they are microwaving their sandwich for exactly 2 minutes and 45 seconds, and ABSOLUTELY NOT 2 minutes and 46 seconds?

      Are there a lot of people out there with only one finger, who find it faster and easier to type in 1-0-0-0-Start rather than turning the dial a quarter turn to "10m"?

      What in the world makes people believe replacing analog with digital is the answer to absolutely everything?
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    9. Re:Nobody's paying attention by TheLink · · Score: 1

      "The wheel is speed and acceleration sensitive."

      How'd a completely blind person cope with that one? Say they want 2 minutes, if they spin it faster than normal they might get 3 minutes instead.

      I think same angle = same time would be better for blind people.

      --
    10. Re:Nobody's paying attention by TractorBarry · · Score: 1

      And whilst we're at it what about the utterly shite DVD remote control interface.

      What cretin decided that pressing the "play" button would not in fact play the film ? What idiot decided that you have to select play from a menu and press "ok" instead ?

      So now the entire worlds mothers, grandparents, the elderly and infirm etc. all sit there in total frustration pressing the play button and nothing happens.

      Every other media playback device produced in the last 20 years used the play button to play the content. But no... DVD has to be different.

      Which uterrly inept, clueless imbecile thought that up ? And then there's the two brain cell brigade who then went and copied it.

      --
      Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
    11. Re:Nobody's paying attention by Cruise_WD · · Score: 0
      the more you use it, the more intuitive it starts to seem to be


      People keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      From http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=intuitive
      intuitive

      adj 1: spontaneously derived from or prompted by a natural tendency; "an intuitive revulsion" 2: obtained through intuition rather than from reasoning or observation


      Things don't "become" intuitive - that's the whole point of what intuitive means. Intuitive means it doesn't need experience or learning. It's a great buzzword that's popular amongst UI designers, but stick a neophyte down in front of a PC and you'll soon see how unintuitive most UI's are.

      "It's intuitive once you learn it" is a complete oxymoron, and it really needs to die.
      --
      [ cruise / casual-tempest.net / xenogamous.com / transference.org / quantam sufficit ]
    12. Re:Nobody's paying attention by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      I don't know if this is just my luck or something, but I've had quite a few dvds where pressing the remote's "play" button while on the main menu made it play the movie.

      Maybe my dvd players just makes the play button also be "ok" when I'm in a menu?

    13. Re:Nobody's paying attention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least not to common consumer devices. I cannot even count the number of remote controls, microwaves, cellphones, dishwashers, ATMs, and other devices which are seem to be designed completely without thought for the human who will need to use them.

      Grab a copy of The Design of Everyday Things by Donald A. Norman.

    14. Re:Nobody's paying attention by demallien2 · · Score: 1

      My microwave (LG Solardom) has lots of buttons and a dial, but I LOVE the interface. LG had the good idea of having icons light up to tell you what you were supposed to be pressing/turning next. As it's a combination microwave/convection oven with Halogen grill, you can do some pretty complicated things (and I do). Having this simpleto use yet powerful userface is a blessing. Everytime I use it I think to myself "this is the Mac of kitchen world" :-) Thought I'd just share that :-D

    15. Re:Nobody's paying attention by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      What in the world makes people believe replacing analog with digital is the answer to absolutely everything?
      Couple of things, (1) the margin for error in cheap mechanical timers can be quite high, for instance I often reheat coffee and so on for 40 seconds, this would be hard to get right on a mechanical dial. And (2) cheap mechanical timers break quite easily in my experience.
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    16. Re:Nobody's paying attention by evilviper · · Score: 1
      the margin for error in cheap mechanical timers can be quite high,

      Every analog microwave I've owned had precision down to a second or two, after 10+ minutes. Not to mention all the mechanical clocks and watches I still have that continue to keep time damn well.

      And (2) cheap mechanical timers break quite easily in my experience.

      And never break, in my experience, so there we are...

      And on both counts, digital timers certainly aren't as cheap as these ultra-lowsy mechanical timers you're talking about, so the point is entirely moot.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    17. Re:Nobody's paying attention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You keep saying you're reading, but it seems reading doesn't mean what you thinking it means.

      He said "SEEMS to be", implying (quite obviously, I thought, but apparently you need it pointed out) that someone using a flawed product will, over time, start to believe that it is straightforward and intuitive.

  12. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by megaditto · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Reminds me of Alice in UNIX land. An oldie but a goodie.

    What I am still waiting for is multi-pointer capable x11 (two mouses) and pressure-sensing mouse buttons.

    --
    Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
  13. Intuitiveness by FlyByPC · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Amazing how naturally he uses the mouse -- back in 1968!

    --
    Paleotechnologist and connoisseur of pretty shiny things.
    1. Re:Intuitiveness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      You're aware he invented the thing, right?

  14. self study as elective was denied by cadience · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I graduated in 2003 with a BS in Computer Engineering and a BS in Software Engineering.

    During my studies I proposed multiple times to do an independent study of the history of the computer field to count for 3 credits of my general electives. I was denied every time, even with support from the head the Engineering department. The liberal arts department continually stated that the purpose of the electives is to gain breath in knowledge. I finally took a (very interesting) class on Greek mythology.

    I agree with the premise of increasing knowledge, but not the implementation. The college should encourage independent research when a student can blend his primary interests to meet a "credit based requirement".

    What are your thoughts?

    Understanding history of your profession should be as important as understanding your culture and your history. Your profession will become a part of who you are as well! Without context, you're clueless.

    1. Re:self study as elective was denied by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      My cynical viewpoint is that certain parts of history are buried quite deliberately. Or at least I can understand you not being encouraged to research it, to some people it's controvertial. Why? Partly because of the current madness regarding patents and partly because modern culture encourages an arrogant disconnect from our greater history. No longer is it "the shoulders of giants" we stand on, kids today seem to think everything was invented in the last 20 years, instead we live on the roof of a great skyscraper built by magicians. To understand your technological history is to grasp the context, the limitations, and then to develop a little healthy contempt for soothsaying futurist punits who whip up a frenzy of hype around each dull and trivial new technological advance.

      Many of the things we believe are new are just rehashed ideas that were ahead of their time. As we go forward, ideas that were too advanced get second chances at coming into the mainstream. Sometimes they succeed, other times they have to wait for the third or fourth chance. A generation kept in ignorance of its history can be fooled into thinking those old ideas are the creation of new developers.

      Please, write your history of computing, research it well and thoroughly starting with the Babylonians, but remember to include multiple perspectives, generally unquoted and unrecognised foriegn acheivements, look for prior art on every claim made in the last 30 years and you'll
      probably find the person with their name to the acheivement "borrowed" it from work within a timeframe of 10-50 years previous.
      Nothing upsets "historians" with a vested interest more than revisionists, but it's a necessary part of the very formation of history and informed hindsight .

    2. Re:self study as elective was denied by geekoid · · Score: 1

      but it shouldn't be a general elective.

      They were right.

      But there should be a history of technical advances in the computer cirr.
      Not a study of dates but a study of what was done and why. as well as a chance for students to use tghe older UIs.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:self study as elective was denied by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I graduated in 2003 with a BS in Computer Engineering and a BS in Software Engineering.

      So, basically, you're full of BS.

      Understanding history of your profession should be as important as understanding your culture and your history. Your profession will become a part of who you are as well!

      I guess that's a good idea for those folks use university for job training, unlike myself, and manage to maintain a career in the field they chose to major in, unlike many people.

  15. Useless Crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I looked at those videos, and most of the time the operator is spinning the damn cube, or waving a window.

    Now you tell me, how much time are you going to spend doing that? I turned off the XP menu fade-in right from the start.

    How about some useful stuff that actually helps organization, like virtual desktops did - a rather simple and cheap trick that didn't require everybody to upgrade to the latest octo-GPU CrossFile SLI-ed system.

  16. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Everyone except the Dormouse was holding a paper cup, from which they were sampling what appeared to be custard. "Wrong flavor," they all declared as they passed the cup the cup to the creature on their right and graciously took the one being offered on their left. Alice watched them repeat this ritual three or four times before she approached and sat down.

    Immediately, a large toad leaped into her lap and looked at her as if it wanted to be loved. "Grep," it exclaimed.

    "Don't mind him," explained the Mad Hacker. "He's just looking for some string."

    "Nroff?" asked the Frog.

    The Mad Hacker handed Alice a cup of custard-like substance and a spoon. "Here," he said, "what do you think of this?"

    "It looks lovely," said Alice, "very sweet." She tried a spoonful. "Yuck!" she cried. "It's awful. What is it?"

    "Oh just another graphic interface for UNIX," answered the Hacker.

    Alice pointed to the sleeping Dormouse. "Who's he?" she asked.

    "That's OS Too," explained the Hacker. "We've pretty much given up on waking him.
  17. MUD and MMRPG players know ... by cpu_fusion · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That the biggest UI change yet-to-come has to do with moving from a single-user desktop metaphor to a collaborative virtual space that leverages a lifetime of perception of the real world. When computers evolve into a more transparent role in our life, layering this digital world on our physical world will be next. It's coming sooner than we think, will we survive that long though?

    1. Re:MUD and MMRPG players know ... by FangVT · · Score: 1
      When computers evolve into a more transparent role in our life, layering this digital world on our physical world will be next.

      I'm replying to this way late, so I don't know if you'll ever read this or not, but you should pick up a copy of Vernor Vinge's latest book, "Rainbows End," which came out last May. It does an amazing job of imagining a world in which computers augment our physical world (the display is built in to contact lenses).

    2. Re:MUD and MMRPG players know ... by cpu_fusion · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the recommendation! Much appreciated.

  18. Sorry, I've got work to do... by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1, Insightful
    I don't see how the UI issues matter. I have work to do. If the UI does XYZ and I'm doing ABC, the UI is of no consequence. We regularly have idiotic flamewars here between people glued to CLI, and the zealots of GUI. Here it is, 2006, and I'm kicking builds in CLI using UNIX commands. I remember when the Mac came out all these CLI shitheads were barking "the Mac is a toy! REAL MEN use CLI and DOS!" Whatever. DOS bit the dust, and CLI is marginalised, but it hasn't disappeared because in specific ways, it's very useful. GUI was able to do 90% of what CLI did, and did it intuitively and easily. I don't see how these new UI innovations are going to improve on the work I do in a GUI in the same way the GUI improved on the CLI.

    All that gestural stuff will make my work better exactly how? It's not gestural - it's just arm-waving of the "IN THE FUTURE..." variety.

    HOWEVER: the I/O brush IS very k3wl. I can think of all kinds of fun stuff to do with that. It's an app, not a UI, but it's definitely fun.

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
    1. Re:Sorry, I've got work to do... by geekoid · · Score: 0

      there is nothing the CLI does that can't been done with a GUI.

      Nothing.
      Unfortunatly most current GUIs are really that good.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Sorry, I've got work to do... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ROTFFLMFAO

  19. history of computing part 1 by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2, Funny

    "It might be time to add a mandatory "History of Computers" class to the computer science curriculum so as to give new practitioners this much needed sense of history.'"

    Oh please no.

    I had a mandatory Computers class in 6th grade (and again in 7th and 8th grade, with the exact same lesson plan). Half of this class was rudimentary BASIC programming on a room full of TRS-80s, the ones with the integrated green monochrome displays--and this was circa 1990.

    The other half of the class was a purported history of computing, the key facts of which I can still recite today (learning the same thing thrice causes it to stick). These facts are:

    - Charles Babbage made a mechanical computer.
    - Then there were the UNIVAC and the ENIAC.
    - The term "bug" is due to an actual bug Ada Lovelace found inside a computer.
    - There are four kinds of computer: supercomputer, mainframe, minicomputer, and microcomputer.
    - RAM stands for "random access memory"; ROM stands for "read only memory".
    - Cray supercomputers are cool-looking.
    - 10 PRINT "FART!!! "
    - 20 GOTO 10
    - RUN

  20. This differs from any other history how? by Infonaut · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Unless they're harboring some religious, ethnic, or national grudge, people generally don't know much about history. That's 3x as true in the US as it is in most places.

    'Sadly, a great many people in the computer field have a pathetic sense (or rather ignorance) of history. They are pompous and narcissistic enough to ignore the great contributions of past geniuses...

    I'm confused. Are computer folks ignorant about history, or are they knowledgeable about history and chosing to ignore it?

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  21. Whatever the next UI is, it won't be "intuitive" by Dr.+Zowie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Several years ago I had the delightful privilege of talking about interface design with Jef Raskin (who designed many aspects of the Macintosh UI).

    He pointed out that "the only intuitive user interface is a nipple."

    Several days ago my wife and I had a new son, so of course I watched them learn (together) how to breastfeed. It was not obvious to either one of them how to make it work -- they had to explore and figure it out together.

    It appears that Jef was wrong: even nipples are not an intuitive user interface.

  22. Re:Whatever the next UI is, it won't be "intuitive by geekoid · · Score: 1

    I have been saying that for year.
    I never culd figure out if he was wrong, are a genius.

    Meaning, even the most seemingly intuitive interface has a learning curve.

    I hope things worked out between your wife and son. It can be an extrememly fustrating thing for a woman.

    Good luck!

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  23. but you get it wrong. by geekoid · · Score: 2, Informative

    the first computer bug was not found by ada lovelace.
    uit was found by Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, USNR, (1906-1992)

    http://www.maxmon.com/1945ad.htm
    http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/pers-us/uspers- h/g-hoppr.htm
    http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h96000/h 96566kc.htm

    she was an excellent speaker who could make anybody understand anything, a real gift.

    Even the most elementary exercise with your brain would ahve allowed you to figure why it couldn't have been Ada Lovelace.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:but you get it wrong. by nuzak · · Score: 2, Informative

      The fact that Hopper found this bug to be a play on words at the time when she found it suggests rather strongly that the term "bug" was around long before then.

      Edison used the term quite a bit. In fact, it goes all the way back to Shakespeare.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    2. Re:but you get it wrong. by Jason+Scott · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it is accepted that she found the first *computer* bug.

    3. Re:but you get it wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wooooosh!

  24. Two mice. by Poromenos1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously. Most of that stuff can be done with two mice. Why hasn't anyone implemented that yet? Just grab the image from the ends and drag to resize, or drag one end to rotate, or whatever. Two mice would be much more natural. Sure, you'd probably use the one in your good hand more, but for some stuff it would be great (perhaps handling 3D models?).

    --
    Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    1. Re:Two mice. by MadEE · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Seriously. Most of that stuff can be done with two mice. Why hasn't anyone implemented that yet? Just grab the image from the ends and drag to resize, or drag one end to rotate, or whatever. Two mice would be much more natural. Sure, you'd probably use the one in your good hand more, but for some stuff it would be great (perhaps handling 3D models?).
      It probably hasn't been implemented yet because it would be quite confusing to keep up with which pointer does what. There isn't that problem with these displays as the pointer is under your finger and it's hard to lose. But there are a bunch of advantages to this over 2 mice, the most obvious being it allows more then 2 pointers. The second the display could allow physical tools to be used on the display instead of simulating the tools. Third it's touch sensitive allowing command modifications by force. I have to disagree with it being more natural, how more natural can you get then actually touching the object on the screen the only thing I could think more natural would be touching the physical object itself.
    2. Re:Two mice. by lannocc · · Score: 1

      Exactly. But I'm holding out for two wii-motes :)

    3. Re:Two mice. by Relic+of+the+Future · · Score: 1
      "It probably hasn't been implemented yet..."

      Au contraire, my friend.

      Works on:

      • Linux 2.4/2.6/etc through the "evdev" kernel interface.
      • MacOS X (and Darwin?) through IOKit's HID Manager API.
      • Windows XP and later through the WM_INPUT/RawInput API.
      --
      Those who fail to understand communication protocols, are doomed to repeat them over port 80.
    4. Re:Two mice. by SolitaryMan · · Score: 1
      Most of that stuff can be done with two mice.Why hasn't anyone implemented that yet?
      Since two pointers have been supported in X11 for a while, I think that software implementation of some of this multitouch featureas are not very far. As for physical implementation, I think that small one-button mice, which you can use with your finger will be more convenient.

      This won't fully exploit multitouch feature, though. Eventually, you'll need some multitouch device anyway.
      --
      May Peace Prevail On Earth
    5. Re:Two mice. by Poromenos1 · · Score: 1

      No, I meant it's more natural than one mouse and easier to implement than the multiple-point touch screen. Of course, the latter would be ideal, but until we get it, two mice would be a good solution. You could just have pointers with different colours, then noone would get confused. Or, even better, one would point to the right and one to the left.

      --
      Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    6. Re:Two mice. by Hell+O'World · · Score: 3, Funny

      Most of that stuff can be done with two mice. Why hasn't anyone implemented that yet?
      Because all innovation in the computer industry comes from the field of pornography.

  25. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by kwark · · Score: 2, Informative

    I personally can't think of any use for it but a Multi-Pointer X Server already exists:
    http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/

  26. but by geekoid · · Score: 1

    if with the wave of your hand the screw driver would leap up an remove that pesky screw on its own, wouldn't you want to do that?

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:but by grumbel · · Score: 1
      if with the wave of your hand the screw driver would leap up an remove that pesky screw on its own, wouldn't you want to do that?

      How do I tell if the screw needs tightening at all? How does the computer figure out if I want it to go in or out? How does the computer tell me how tight it is? How to I pick a screw? If I just pick that screwdriver and start working all that information is easily available. Of course an automatic screwdriver might work better then a manual one and even with mouse and keyboard at hand there might be siutaions where voice commando or gesture would help. Voice and gesture however have their limits, so they simply don't work for all situtations. Just look at StarTrek, even with all that hightech around, they still have consoles that are operated via hand input ;)

  27. I kind of did something related during my degree.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    During my degree, I studied a module which was essentially "The History of Programming Languages".

    Suffice to say, it was the most soul destroying, mind numbing, useless waste of time that anyone on my course ever encountered. I'm sure it's down to the lecturer's "style", but it was really, really god awful.

    But I agree, perspective is important...just like everything though, it has to be taught well! :)

  28. Hmmm... Project Looking Glass? by spectecjr · · Score: 1
    --
    Coming soon - pyrogyra
    1. Re:Hmmm... Project Looking Glass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out the very end of the Alan Key video in the article, around the 1:15:10 time marker. This is around 1977. A HUGE full wall screen showing all kinds of zooming interface called "Data Land" and you can zoom in on anything. This also seems to have been the first UI to use anti-aliasing.

      Actually, here's the link:
      http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4990841328 277971528

      This kind of proves the point that folks don't know anything about UI/Comp.Sci history.

  29. Re:Whatever the next UI is, it won't be "intuitive by Dr.+Zowie · · Score: 1

    Thanks -- they're doing fine!

    Jef was that rare jewel -- a visionary who is willing to admit mistakes. The world got a little poorer when he passed away.

  30. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by megaditto · · Score: 1

    Wow the just released that in June. Don't know how I missed that, thanks.

    --
    Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
  31. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by kfg · · Score: 1

    The guy seems to think that the stagnation of the UI is an entirely bad thing.

    That's because he lacks a sense of the history of human/tool interfaces. Perhaps he should take a course.

    KFG

  32. "Sample Augmentation System" by jthill · · Score: 1

    God. That video isn't just humbling, it's damn near humiliating. Compare it to the nextstep 3 demo someone else posted I think today. It isn't that nextstep isn't better - in many places it is, by far. But only in detail, and only some ways. There's stuff in NLS I still want. Anybody else seen folding that good? Where? I want it. What the hell have we been doing for forty years?

    --
    As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
    1. Re:"Sample Augmentation System" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " What the hell have we been doing for forty years?"

      Either cloning Windows, or cloning Macs

  33. Assuming that I got educated tomorrow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Questions, questions. The first degree is obviously psychology (either alone or as part of another degree. Usually a M.S.)

    http://www.si.umich.edu/msi/hci-reqs.htm

    http://informatics.iupui.edu/academics/hci/hci_ms_ requirements.php

    "I've always been fascinated by HCI but have yet to be able to pursue this in a work-related setting (where I tend to write backend code, basically as far away from users as you could possibly get)."

    You may already have some of the requirements (see above). Fill in the rest, either self-study, or part-time schooling. But you have to be serious about this field. It's a LOT of work to become good.

    Here's an example of some of the things HCI produces.

  34. Gestures are overrated by fragmer · · Score: 1

    I just don't see how remembering a dozen gestures would be more difficult then remembering a dozen keyboard shortcuts. In my experience, keyboard shortcuts are way faster too. Gestures are very effective for tasks like resizing/arranging windows and interacting with games. But that's about it. Keyboard/mouse (or keyboard/trackball) are much more efficient for most tasks.

    --
    09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0
  35. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by FudRucker · · Score: 1

    i actually like multiple virtual desktops, 4 to 6 is plenty, i have fvwm2 fixed up pretty nice with full paging & edge wrap. once you get the hang of it then going back to icons on a taskbar is klumsy and slow...

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  36. Tired of Eyecandy... by evilviper · · Score: 1

    I'm tired how all GUI development is now centered around the GPU, and more eye-candy.

    The useful features from OS X that people find useful, like a visual cue as to where a window is being iconified to, can and have been done in much faster/simpler ways. For as long as I can remember, Afterstep has drawn an outline of windows being iconofied, and quickly shows the outline spiraling down to, and shrinking into the icon.

    Why is the rest of the GUI stagnating? Keyboard shortcuts are extremely primitive at best. Using TAB to navigate between fields is a rather nonsensical way to do things, particularly since you don't know if TAB is going to take you to the field to the left, right, up, down, etc. With something like Symbian, to get to the field below, you just hit the down arrow, and you're there.

    Browsers are even worse. They are beyond horrible when trying to use keyboard navigation. The notable exception is Links (similar to lynx), and yet nobody is adapting those highly intuitive and powerful keyboard navigation features to other browsers.

    Having to scroll side-to-side while reading a webpage is absolutely the worst interface design ever concieved. Web pages aren't giant images or PDFs, after all. I was telling people, 10 years ago, that browsers needed to ignore any HTML code (and wrap/resize images) that forced the page to become wider than the browser window... And I was REALLY ranting on the subject about 4 years ago, when it was driving me crazy on my 240x320 PDA. Yet, it was only about a year ago that Opera figured it out, and included that feature, and still none of the other web browsers have even picked-up on that important improvement.

    You can make my browser window as transparent and warped as you want, but it's not going to fix any of the REAL problems people have.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    1. Re:Tired of Eyecandy... by value_added · · Score: 1

      Browsers are even worse. They are beyond horrible when trying to use keyboard navigation. The notable exception is Links (similar to lynx), and yet nobody is adapting those highly intuitive and powerful keyboard navigation features to other browsers.

      I agree fully, but my own preference is elinks. More importantly, elinks with vi keystrokes exclusively that match the same keystrokes I use in vim, bash, etc. and with a great deal of effort and less than perfect results, Firefox.

      Having to scroll side-to-side while reading a webpage is absolutely the worst interface design ever concieved. Web pages aren't giant images or PDFs, after all. I was telling people, 10 years ago, that browsers needed to ignore any HTML code (and wrap/resize images) that forced the page to become wider than the browser window.

      The concept of srolling horizontally (or seeing a horizontal scrollbar, for that matter) is obscene. In my case, I simply don't bother with any web page that doesn't fit into the real estate I'm willing to allot for its window, which isn't much. At the same time however, I'd expect a web page designer not to cater to the lowest common denominator, and implement what it is he or she thinks is visually appropriate. Personally, I'd prefer designers stick to the print-oriented design because what exists in the print world is generally far superiour to anything most web designers have come up with. We are supposed to be reading something, right? Or is everything supposed to be a poster with intereactive buttons. Instead of a "giant PDF", I'd prefer it be a standarard PDF, or better yet, a PDF that resembles a printed page but is sized for the awkward sized computer screens we use which are are too narrow for movies and too wide for reading.

      At the same time, I've seen some amazing and incredibly beautiful web pages in Flash, for instance, that I can't read in elinks, require too much real estate, and don't correspond to any traditional notion of design, but I sure as hell can't find any fault with them.

      Thes repeated discussions of interfaces and interface designs are interesting, but I wonder whether they're at least partially motivated by users with an ever decreasing attention span and an ever increasing laziness. I expect there will be continued improvements (even in Windows), but I have zero expectation that they'll have any serious impact on how we use computers. To paraphrase an earlier post, a visually-pleasing desktop environment, etc. is great, a bit of eye-candy can be a good thing, but real computer users will choose to continue to work in a terminal window because it works best.

  37. apply it to a calculator... by 3seas · · Score: 3, Insightful

    take these fancy UIs and use them to control a calculator and then decide if it right for the job.

    "Right for the Job" is the key phrase.

    There are three primary UIs:

    the command line (CLI)

    the Graphical User Interface (GUI)

    and the side door port used to tie functionality together. known by many different names, but in essence an Inter Process Communication Port (IPC)

    Together they are like the primary colors of light or paint, take away one and you greatly limit what the user can do for themselves,

    But if they are standardized with the recognition of abstraction physics (in essence what a computer impliments) then the user would be able to create specifically what they need for the job they do via understanding and applying abstraction physics. The analogy would be mathmatics and the hindu-arabic decimal system in comparison to the more limited roman numeral system.

    There are all sorts of user interfaces that can be created but they all are made up of some combination of the primary three, perhaps lower down on the abstraction ladder but none the less there.

    The reason why this is unavoidable is simple due to the nature of programming.

    Programming is the act of automating some complexity, typically made up of earlier created automations (machine language - 0's and 1's is first level abstraction - all above it is an automation). The purpose of automating some complexity is tocreate an easier to use and reuse interface for that complexity. And we all build upon what those before us have created. Its a human unique characteristic that make its our natural right and duty to apply.

    What the failure of so called computer science is guilty of is distraction by the money carrot, starting with IBM and wartime code cracking paid for by government/tax payers.

    This distraction has avoided genuine computer science, or abstraction physics as it would be far more accurate in description.

    Abstraction physics to the creation and manipulation of abstractions as mathmatics is a creation and manipulation of numbers, as physics and chemistry is a creation and manipulation of elements existing in physical reality.

    With the primary three colors of paint you can paint anything you want, but you cannot call a painting "the painting" any more than you can call a mathmatical result mathmatics. Nor can you call some interface built upon the primary UIs the silver bullet of UI's.

    All this will become much more clear, common and even second nature once we all get past the foolish fraudlent idea that software is patentable.

    A roman numeral accountant, in defending his vested interest in math with roman numerals, promoted that only a fool would think nothing could have value (re: the zero place holder in the hindu arabic decimal system.)

  38. Intuitive User Interface by jck2000 · · Score: 1

    Can you now tell me why the common head gesture for "yes" is to shake the head up and down, and the common head gesture for "no" is to shake the head left and right?

    1. Re:Intuitive User Interface by Dr.+Zowie · · Score: 2, Informative
      Can you now tell me why the common head gesture for "yes" is to shake the head up and down...

      Why, yes, I can: societal training. In Bulgaria the opposite gestures apply. In Turkey, "yes" is a back-and-forth shake and "no" is a sort of head-rearing gesture. Don't trust me -- trust Cecil Adams...

    2. Re:Intuitive User Interface by Eric604 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Because when you're looking at a girl while shaking your head up and down it's like saying: "hmm nice breasts, nice legs. YES, I want to fuck you". Shaking your head left/right is like "NO I don't want to fuck you, I am not even looking at you. I'm searching left and right for a better prey."

    3. Re:Intuitive User Interface by renoX · · Score: 1

      And letme tell you that when you're working with someone who always shake his head (to say yes for him) which means 'no' for you is quite distracting: you feel like he is rejecting everything you say and you must often reminds yourself that he is not disagreeing with you..

  39. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by gardyloo · · Score: 2, Funny

    i have fvwm2 fixed up pretty nice with full paging & edge wrap. once you get the hang of it then going back to icons on a taskbar is klumsy and slow...

        I'm sorry. "Klumsy" is a trademarked adjective of a different desktop environment. You have been warned.

  40. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The most common scenario is for multiple users, so that you don't need to run multiple X servers. I guess there would be some benefits to being able to work on the same document at once too (Eg., that live changes dual-writing Abiword thing)

    There are some games that could benefit from two mouse (eg, "Smash TV"-style where you move with one and shoot with the other, and flight sims where you can steer with one and target with the other).

  41. Narcissistic? by gwoodrow · · Score: 1

    GRAPHICAL user interface? You mean GUI doesn't stand for Greg's User Interface?

  42. Doom by MECC · · Score: 1

    Doom3 is the future of the computer interface. Kill -9 is the BFG.

    --
    "We are all geniuses when we dream"
    - E.M. Cioran
    1. Re:Doom by Fulg · · Score: 1

      For those who don't know: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/

      --
      gcc: no input sig
  43. Sales driven greed mongering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...demands "NEW AND IMPROVED!!!" products, whether we need them or not.
    OTOH, it's also the only reason we can actually afford to own computers now.

  44. Re:Whatever the next UI is, it won't be "intuitive by Jason+Scott · · Score: 2, Funny

    You've seen a nipple? Get off of Slashdot, you're no longer one of us.

  45. Re:Whatever the next UI is, it won't be "intuitive by mincognito · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It appears that Jef was wrong: even nipples are not an intuitive user interface.

    But for a breastfed child a nipple on a bottle is an intuitive interface.
  46. No, no, user interface design isn't about gimmicks by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple, in its early days, had a good sense of what was important in a user interface, and that was expressed in the "Apple Human Interface Guidelines". Much of that knowledge has been lost.

    One of the original Apple rules was "You should never have to tell the computer something it already knows". Consistently applying this rule requires a clear separation between infomration about the host environment and individual user preferences, something most programs don't do well. Apple was reasonably faithful to that rule in their early days, but over time, got sloppy. Microsoft never did as well, and it was an alien concept in the UNIX world.

    It's common, but wrong, to bind environment decisions at program install time, which means that a change in the environment breaks applications in mysterious ways. The whole concept of "installers" is flawed, when you think about it. You should just put the application somewhere, and when launched, it adapts to the environment, hopefully not taking very long if nothing has changed. That was the original MacOS concept.

    Much of the trouble comes from failing to distinguish between primary and derived sources for information. "This program understands .odf format" is primary information, and should be permanently associated with the program itself and readable by other programs. ".odf documents can be opened with any of the following programs" is derived information, and should be cached and invalidated based on the primary information. "I would prefer to open .odf documents with OpenOffice" is a user preference. None of the mainstream operating systems quite get this right. That kind of thing is the frontier in user interfaces, not eye candy.

  47. nice by rucs_hack · · Score: 1

    I've looked at a few of these gui's already, and have a friend with a really good XGL setup. Thus far I haven't bothered because most of my computer interaction/programming takes place in a bash console. Yes, I am that dull, *and* I like Vim, oh dear.

    Will there be anything that can do better then bash by adding extra graphical whizziness? Thus far all I've seen is that bash can be wobbled, which isn't an improvement. GUI improvements are nice to see mind. When they're aimed aat aiding physically disabled people I'll be truly impressed, right now it's just a case of 'oooh, pretty'.

    Until I see significant improvements to bash (and right now I can't think what those might be, it's pretty darned perfect), I won't be eating up system resources with a fancy gui that could be better spent running my simulations.

    Man, do I ever sound like some muttering old geezer.

    1. Re:nice by trmcdougle · · Score: 1

      Someone may already have built this but...

      How about a window (above or to the left perhaps?) with a command history (double click to put IN the command line at current insert point, also with copy & paste capability)?

      And a window (below or to the right perhaps?) with a automatic display of relevent man page(s) (with a lock button to keep a page in view even when you go to a different command, perhaps also with the ability to click on any sub-topics which action should turn on the lock?)?

      The display of both windows being a user preference of cause.

  48. Re: Bug by dch24 · · Score: 1

    it goes all the way back to Shakespeare

    Wow. I looked it up on the OED and didn't see the information you're talking about. I suppose I could keep searching... care to share a source? I'd like to learn the etymology of "bug."

    Thanks!

  49. Not tame users, tame designers. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't think it's that you "can't get people to convert," it's that the designers haven't come up with a compelling reason to get people to abandon what they know. Someone who's worked with a mouse+keyboard, desktop-style GUI for (in some cases) 20 years or more, isn't going to completely retrain themselves without a darn good reason. Right now, there aren't many compelling reasons to switch.

    In essence I'm agreeing with you; there certainly haven't been very many really radical designs, and because of that, there haven't been many designs that really offer the average user that much more benefit over what they're using now.

    Offer something significantly better -- enough to cover the retraining cost -- and people will flock to it. There's nothing particularly enjoyable for most people about using a QWERTY keyboard and mouse, it's just what they're used to because it's "good enough." Come up with an interface that lets people enter data as quickly and accurately as they can with a keyboard, and move objects as easily as they can with a mouse, and view and comprehend data as quickly as they can on a monitor, and -- like my grandmother used to say about building a better mousetrap -- people will beat a path to your door. It's just that to date, nobody has really built that better system; at least not that I've ever seen.

    Designers seem hesitant to go 'outside the box' because they percieve users as being tame, but really it's the users who are cynical about new designs, because most of them are nothing but lame rehashes; "difference for the sake of difference," which throw away optimizations painstakingly made over years (or in some cases decades) without offering much new. It's not until designers really go outside the box that they'll stand a chance of finding a Better Way, and when they do, the users will follow.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  50. Much better video is at the Sloan MouseSite by raist_online · · Score: 2, Informative

    Greets! http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html The Sloan MouseSite has better video where you can actually read what Doug has on the screen! I've been lucky enough to see this video with commentary by Doug - he's still around, still has ideas relevant and ahead of most of the rest of the computing world and is always glad to discuss his ideas with people. You can find out his current plans at the Bootstrap Institute: http://www.bootstrap.org/

    --
    The problem with the rat race is, even if you win, you're still a rat!
    1. Re:Much better video is at the Sloan MouseSite by Nonillion · · Score: 1

      "It might be time to add a mandatory "History of Computers" class to the computer science curriculum so as to give new practitioners this much needed sense of history.'"

      I have shown people the 90 minute 1968 demo with Douglas C. Engelbart and company showing a graphical interface and video conferencing; they were to say the least, shocked. They all assumed that Microsoft was the inventor of the GUI and the Internet. Back when I was taking computer courses in college; there was not one course that covered the development of the UI, let alone a 'History of Computers'.

      People need to know that it wasn't Bill Gates or Steve Jobs that invented the UI. They simply 'stole' the concept after paying a visit to Xerox PARC.

      --
      "I bow to no man" - Riddick
  51. exactly by cyclomedia · · Score: 1

    like the fact that every few years a concept car appears that's driven by joystick/tank levers/facial expressions but at the end of the day the current interface* is a good one, tried and tested and in no need of urgent replacement.

    *manual gear shift at user discretion, mind.

    --
    If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
  52. get a simpler microwave by cyclomedia · · Score: 2, Interesting

    mine has two dials:

    1. power
    2. time

    to start it you close the door, to stop it you open the door or ding the time dial yourself

    though they are getting harder to track down. Why my toaster needs 5 buttons as well as the time dial i will never know, presumably they'll be getting clocks soon too.

    --
    If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
  53. Re:Whatever the next UI is, it won't be "intuitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How old is your son? I think I had a support call from this budding genious a few weeks ago...

  54. we'll all be like Harry Potter... by de+Siem · · Score: 1

    if we get a new device to replace the mouse, inshape of a magic wand. Making gestures to get things done, it'll be almost like casting a spell. Also they might find UI uses for the magicians hat and cape and the lovely assistant.

    --
    Beating up people in little rooms, if you do it for a good reason you do it for a bad one.
  55. Touch screens by DragonHawk · · Score: 1
    "touch screens in general, though they have been around for a long time and are still not very popular"


    Remember the gorilla arm!

    http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/gorilla-arm.html
    --

    dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
    I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
  56. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, I used to use multiple task-related desktops with WindowMaker some years back, with hotkeys for each desktop, windows used for related tasks conveniently arranged within them, etc. I could navigate much more quickly with the keyboard than with a mouse, and when I migrated to Windows, using a single desktop with a single window stack (I tend to access it via Alt+Tab, so don't bother too much with the taskbar) was awfully tedious, although at least it isn't as clumsy as the Mac OS X UI (which is pretty, but in my view is also incredibly slow and tedious to use).

    I also used Ion a bit, and it quickly became my favourite window manager by far, but by that time I was mostly using Windows, and as time has passed, I've spent less and less time using Linux (for various reasons, including access to applications I need at university), so I've had to accept this clumsy Windows interface. From time to time I've considered looking into porting Ion to Windows (though it would require a hack, like hooking messages), but never had time for it. The Windows UI is something I grumble about, but it's honestly not bad enough to abandon, especially since replacing it on my own system wouldn't prevent me having to use it on others.

  57. I agree... where does one find a good history? by computational+super · · Score: 1

    I've always agreed with the point about studying the history of computing - the more I understand about the way computers evolved, the better a programmer I am. So where does one go for a good, comprehensive history of the computer UI for the technically inclined? I would love to find a bit of computing archeology that dug out and analyzed some of the source code for, say, the Xerox PARC Alto and went over some of its design decisions and trade-offs and maybe followed up with an interview with Alan Kay but also discussed the hardware design of the CGA and how it evolved into the VGA and SVGA, along with hardware specifications... really hardcore geeky stuff, but in a historical context. A book that doesn't just talk about what was invented, but how it worked and why it was invented, and how it was better than what it replaced. I borrowed a book from a friend on "modem programming" (talk about archaic), and it opened with about 100 pages discussing the history of the modem; how the telegraph worked, how telegraph machines incorporated error detection and correction, etc. to motivate the invention and design of the modem. I've always been looking for a longer book that took the same approach, but to everything.

    --
    Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
  58. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by kwark · · Score: 1

    That reminds me of Settlers (2) that could make use of 2 pointers (never tried it myself)

  59. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by kwark · · Score: 1
  60. new optical delay line memories by peter303 · · Score: 1

    There are proposals for photonic fiber loops.
    These can hold some obscene amount of storage, like 10^16 bits or something.

    Old technologies re-appear in new forms.

  61. Analog Knobs by sasha328 · · Score: 1

    I totally agree. I bought my microwave in 1998. I couldn't afford the "electronic" ones at the time, so I got one with two knobs. One for the timer, and the other for the power.
    Now, I wouldn't want to replace it at all. I love the simplicity. The one at work is "digital" and all it has are different buttons that have to be pressed multiple times to get the desired results.

    I can think of another scenario. I have flown several light aircraft. There was one in particular, the Eagle X aircraft from Perth had a digital cockpit. It annoyed the hell out of me because there were no dials to indicate readings (with green normal bands) they were all numerical. Fancy, but very distracting.

    Bring back the analog.

  62. Anybody else think that video is a fake? by Kodack · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't think of any reason why someone would want to fake a 1968 computer GUI video but there are several things here that confuse me.

    1. The mouse and GUI were not invented until the 1970's by Xerox. In 1968 the microprocessor hadn't even been born yet.

    2. Look at the headset that the guy is wearing. They did not have small compact, against the ear, short tube microphoned, headsets in 1968. They used around the ear headphones hte size of your fist with a boom microphone sticking out the side. They just did not have those kinds of headsets back then. Look at any vintage NASA or military video, and they had the best that money could buy.

    And last but not least, despite the fact that there were no micro processors in 1968, there were also no video displays capable of rendering a rasterized mouse cursor..... They used teletype formated rows and columns of ASCII characters. Hell in 1968 even super computers still used teletype terminals and punch cards......

    It looks like a well done fake using computer effects to age the video.

    1. Re:Anybody else think that video is a fake? by ardor · · Score: 1

      Douglas Engelbart DID invent the mouse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Engelbart is correct. Verify it in any computer history book.

      --
      This sig does not contain any SCO code.
  63. Interesting. History of Computing was course #1. by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 1

    In the BSCS I went through in the early 1980's, the History of Computing half of was the first course in the BSCS core trac: Introduction to Computing 101. It was a required class, and it covered all kinds of stuff (hardware, languages, etc.). Quite informative.

    Folks tend to come into college a bit more tech-savvy now, but I would still see value in such a class.

    --
    Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
  64. Touchscreens and desktops don't mix. by default+luser · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For simple things, sure, a touchscreen works wonders. Kiosks and self-contained systems (such as medical equipment) would be complicated without them.

    But for any other general-purpose computer, the touchscreen lost out long ago. There were a number of touchscreen monitors for sale in the 90s, all the way to today, but they never made inroads over the mouse. The problem is two-fold:

    1. people don't like raising their arms to horizontal and manipulating a screen while seated. It is an unnatural position. See, normally when you're STANDING and your arms are horizontal, you are using your entire body as a pivot point. Watch a painter at-work: they move more than just their upper-body, and this makes the work feel "easier" because the loads are distributed to more muscles. When you sit at a touchscreen, you have to use just the upper-body to move and keep your hands horizontal, causing you to wear out faster.

    2. touchscreens are inherently large with low-resolution, like all monitors. What this means is you end up moving your finger a lot further than you should have to, because your shoulder-arm-wrist-hand-finger is capable of much higher reolution than the screen (typical mouse resolution is 600 dpi, typical screen resolution is 100 dpi). The end result is more strain than you should have to endure.

    In fact, the modern touchpad on laptops is proof that these two issues make touchscreens unusable:

    * touchpads are MUCH higher resolution than their respective screens, yet they are as usable as mice or trackballs.

    * touchpads are at the horizontal position, a much more natural position for your hands while seated.

    Leave the touchscreens to their niches: self-contained, rugged computers, and kiosks. For seated computing, the mouse is a better extension of the human hand than a touchscreen will ever be.

    --

    Man is the animal that laughs.
    And occasionally whores for Karma.

    1. Re:Touchscreens and desktops don't mix. by Eideewt · · Score: 1

      There's no law that computer screens have to be vertical. An optimum angle would probably be 20 to 30 degrees from horizontal. I agree that working on a vertical screen for a long period of time would be unpleasant, but it would be much better on a slanted one.

      I don't think there's a problem with moving your hands around. There are lots of activities that require sitting and moving a lot, and they're generally not more tiring than using a computer. I think that the extra movement would help keep us limber, and make using a computer more pleasant, rather than less.

      Touch screens are not suitable for precision work, mainly because your fingers are too big. This is where it would make sense to integrate a pen as well.

  65. Re:Whatever the next UI is, it won't be "intuitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    But for a breastfed child a nipple on a bottle is an intuitive interface.


    No it isn't. My theory is it doesn't feel right.

  66. Use your feet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Piano makers have found a long time ago an excellent solution to the equivalents of two keys which get pressed all the time:

    Extra keys you press with your feet! Just a couple of them, one for each foot.

    It certainly speeds things up when speed is really important.

  67. Jef Raskin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TFA completely ignores Jef Raskin. The guy not only started the Mac project at Apple (whereas His Steveness tried to kill it, until he finally understood GUI) but published some groundbreaking papers on ergonomical computer user interfaces years before Xerox PARC was founded -- he didn't find teachers at his pre-Apple visits to PARC, he found soulmates. It's worth googling up -- although his own recollection of Mac's history seems to be as distorted as Apple's official account. (Insiders say he wasn't an easy guy to work with.) But his "THE" is an interesting concept, if somewhat based on old or changed premises and assumptions.

  68. Re:No, no, user interface design isn't about gimmi by DarkJC · · Score: 1

    It's common, but wrong, to bind environment decisions at program install time, which means that a change in the environment breaks applications in mysterious ways. The whole concept of "installers" is flawed, when you think about it. You should just put the application somewhere, and when launched, it adapts to the environment, hopefully not taking very long if nothing has changed. That was the original MacOS concept.

    Your post makes good points, but I think that their method of program installation is one of the few remaining salvaged ideas from thier original concept. To install a program in OS X, it usually just requires dragging the application into a folder on your computer and it is installed. I'm not sure how many applications break in OS X with environment changes, but still, I think it's one of the better elements of the UI in OS X.

  69. Re:Creaky and old fashioned? How about useful. by HeroreV · · Score: 1

    Well regardless of whether they are getting easier to use, they are certainly getting much prettier. Compare KDE to CDE, NEXTSTEP, Windows 9x, etc. I actually find all the glitz and glam can make things less functional, but is sure is pretty. Default GNOME is still prettier than all that old shit and often more functional.

  70. let's hear it for OS level voice recognition! by ffflala · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Use voice recognition on a phone tree lately? It is improving. Hell the default voice-recognition that comes with XP works accurately enough with a little training. Application commands are part of the package -- why not OS commands?

    I can map my own shortcut keys if I desire. Have I simply missed the possibility of how to map a selected vocabulary of voice commands to my OS? Without having to pay for Dragon Naturally Speaking, that is. (I'm cheap, and I have good projection.)

  71. FAT finger & opague finger by Tungbo · · Score: 1

    I agree with the other posters that big gestues might be OK with touch pad.
    But it is really NOT good with doing detailed work.
    Try placing that line in JUST the right position in the narrow space
    between two figures. Think about using Photshop with a touch screen. It's not so easy.

    Compounding the precision issue, is that your finger blocks you view of
    the screen, so you might have to swivel your head just to see what's going on.

    I've worked on touch screen designs in another incarnation. They have their
    niche, but I can't see them as a general UI for most applications.
    3D spatial gestures - I think - has a much better chance of succeeding here.

    1. Re:FAT finger & opague finger by Eideewt · · Score: 1

      That's not the fault of the touch screen. I agree that they would suck for Photoshop work -- fingers aren't precise enough, and they block your view. This would be akin to attempting to finger paint something that looks like it was drawn with a pen. For Photoshop work, you'd probably want to use a pen on a slightly slanted screen. Just like a Wacom Cintiq.

      3d spatial gestures are another interesting idea, but I worry that their lack of tactile feedback and their requirement for holding your arms up would pose a problem

  72. Smoothwheel by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 2, Informative

    Thanks for pointing that out! I was wishing there was something like this. You, and others who have pointed the same thing out, are perfectly correct that a smooth scroll ought to be the behavior with the mouse wheel.

    --
    And the brethren went away edified.
  73. Re:No, no, user interface design isn't about gimmi by Animats · · Score: 1

    On the Apple side, the classic price of getting it right was having to "rebuild the desktop" occasionally, thereby rebuilding all the derived information. That was annoying, but certainly beat having to reinstall software.

    Microsoft had a chance to get it right when they added the Registry, but they botched it. There should have been a clear distinction in the Registry between application-owned info, derived info, and user-preference info, with the first being static, the second being rebuildable, and the third having a user interface for examining it. But Microsoft mixed them all up.