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Virgin Atlantic Bans Dell, Apple Laptops
TechFreep writes, "Amid a slew of incidents involving exploding Sony batteries, Virgin Atlantic announced that it won't allow passengers to use batteries in any Apple or Dell laptops on flights. The announcement, posted on Virgin's website, said that passengers may carry on the laptop itself, but batteries must be properly wrapped and stowed away in carry-on for the duration of the flight. However, the airline provided no details as to what proper wrapping entails. For those who wish to use a laptop while on the plane, Virgin plans to provide power adapters on flights where outlets are available." Will Virgin allow on board exploding Sony batteries in IBM ThinkPads?
Virgin plans to provide power adapters on flights where outlets are available."
Well, this is the problem with most flights, particularly those that last longer than 3 or 4 hours. Specifically, there are simply not enough power outlets in the seats. So, if the airlines want to ban laptop batteries, and they want to maintain business, how about installing more power outlets? Its sad, but a classic case of airline security taking care of the problem after the problem has been identified and dealt with rather than being proactive in their plans. What this sort of behavior is doing, along with all of the other lame security procedures like taking off belts, shoes and sandals is simply making airline travel more onerous.
I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have to try and work on a flight after security delays of sometimes hours have meant getting on board with a laptop battery that is drained only to find out there is no power port on board the flight. Even worse, on several Delta flights where they were *supposed* to have power outlets in the seats, they have been non-functional.
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Dell I can understand. However there have been no reported cases of Apple laptops causing any risk to an airplane. I hereby announce a boycott of Virgin Atlantic air lines until this idiotic policy is reversed and Virgin gets back on the cluetrain.
If action is not taken within 24 hours I may have to start an Internet petition to augment my activist efforts here so described.
Closing the barn door after the horse is long gone.
Is this a real security issue or does Virgin just want to ruin the other companys' images?
I know my ancient sony will not work without the battery inserted. And I cant even figure out how to get the battery out of my brothers new HP.
However, the airline provided no details as to what proper wrapping entails
Place the battery into a lead lined steel surrounded lockable box and ensure all regulation markings are placed upon the exterior (radiation warning labels).
liqbase
This is worse. The batteries do not have to be in the computer to have this issue. It is better to have them in the plane where people are, so the possible fire could be put out. If a battery explodes in the cargo area where nobody is there to put it out, the outcome could be far more tragic! They should have done their research prior to mandating this change...
(Unless their "proper packaging" includes automatic sprinkler systems)
Amid a slew of incidents involving exploding Sony batteries, Virgin Atlantic announced that it won't allow passengers to use batteries in any Apple or Dell laptops on flights.
That shouldn't be a problem for people with Apple machines. I hear those are capable of running solely on one's own sense of self-superiority.
Push Button, Receive Bacon
Not an Internet Petition!! I mean, sure, they're terribly evil people, but let's not get crazy and do things we'll regret down the line. I'm sure there's less extreme ways to get your point across.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
I am sure a fire in the luggage section of the plane is so much easier to control than a fire in the cabin.
Or is this rule to prevent someone from using the battery as a weapon? Powerbook terrorist: "Turn this plane around, or this battery will certainly explode"
"Fix it"
Why discriminate by brand and/or type of hardware being used? Any battery can be rigged to explode into flame simply by creating a short circuit. I learned this the hard way several years ago after sticking a coin into a AA battery port on one of those electronic kits. The coin super heated and starting making small flames near the batteries as the current flowed directly from the batteries and back without a load.
8==8 Bones 8==8
Of course dells always work for women.
You mad
So, even if you are using a 3rd party battery or have one of the replaced ones, you know they won't let you use it anyway. That's one less airline I will be using. Stupid. Just stupid.
Why not ban all muslims from airplanes, since a few muslims hijacked some airplanes? IT'S THE SAME THOUGHT PROCESS. You think the muslims are pissed about the pope right now? Wait 'till you piss off some Apple fanatics - then you will be in a living hell.
Sound waves should be free!
/me tapes over the DELL sticker
This is really really pointless. They already did the recall a while ago, and I'm sure most professionals heard about it and checked it. And face it, most laptop users I've seen on flights have been professionals, not little kids playing Half-Life.
I could see if they did this just as everything was announced (and even then only for a short time).
Ok, so a Thinkpad's battery catches on fire. No where does it say in the article that there were Sony batteries actually in the unit. Nowhere does it say that the battery pack was genuine IBM or not. Nowhere does it say that the battery pack was virgin and not damaged from dropping, being worked on, etc. So,the emperor does not have any clothes on. Li-Ion batteries are capable of delivering large amounts of short circuit current. They can fail. A Gates Energy Products 2 volt lead-acid starved electrolyte battery the size of a D-cell could deliver 150 amps short circuit current. Unfortunately, the spec sheet for the Sanyo batteries that are in my Thinkpad do not mention what the short circuit current rating is for the battery. So until there is more info, just move along.
As an iBook user, I hereby ban my use of Virgin Atlantic!
Seems like it to me... The whole thing is just too silly to be taken seriously.
Oh, and how are us MacBook Pro users going to use the "inflight power" with our monster 85 watt power supplies that don't work on ANY airline?
No toothpaste, no pocket knives, now no laptop. I'm really getting sick of the air travel nazis. It's making the "won't you think of the children" bunch look sane.
My company (a very big one) uses Dell laptops exclusivly... They've just lost a *major* customer... Dude...! You're goin' out of business...!
Any battery that is currently exploding is probably not allowed, regardless of make.
My Dell laptop is so old that it isn't subject to the recall, but Virgin's ban is for all Dell laptops.
Ah well.
sorry but virgin has been banning this for a while, i know last time i flew from heathrow to shanghai just after the the `foiled plot` they had notices up at the counter, this was 4 weeks ago
Regardless of a number of equally stupid rules on air travel these days, I don't think this is likely to last very long, lawsuits incoming.
Better than lawsuits, people will not fly.
Me, I have had it being stranded in airports because some ditz didn't schedule a plane on time with a connecting flight. I will not forget the time I entered a plane in Chicago for Milwaukee and 5 minutes after the last bus went to Milwaukee they let us off the plane when they didn't have a pilot.
I would rather drive down the highway with the CD cranked right up, the PC in the back and take a rest on my schedule not theirs.
Makes me wonder if Pam Anderson has to check in her breasts as potentially dangerous chemicals. Seriously, terrorists will send in kids to blow up, why not a well endowed Muslim lady?
I look at it this way, sooner or later the people are going to get tired of being treated worse than their broken baggage. I only use planes when I have to for business.
IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads don't use Sony batteries. Why the misinformation?
I have taken this stance, and I *nearly* got the privledge to drive to my assignment to work... paid milage and all, but my boss wanted me there NOW, not in a day. Seriously though, my personal cash is NEVER going into the hands of the airlines ever again.
Company is expensing everything, and if anything vital is broken on the trip - company is paying for it.
Today Virgin Atlantic strongly expressed its lack of desire to continue to do business with frequent business travelers by making their lives more difficult.
Not that any of the road warriors in my company regularly fly on Virgin Atlantic, but it's already landed on our corporate "we'd prefer you didn't use this airline/car rental/hotel/etc for business travel" list.
This seems to be a simple concept, if you make it hard for business travelers to get work done, they'll travel with someone else who won't get in their way. I don't understand why an airline doesn't get this.
Be sure to use lots of layers of tinfoil wrapped tightly around the battery!
It is not really a security issue but it is a real fire hazard problem. Dell batteries have a documented history (some with pictures or videos) of bursting into flames, and I would not want to be on an airplane at 40,000 feet when somebody's Dell bursts into flame. I know that the recall is only for certain models but it would be too onerous for the flightcrew to sort out which Dells or Apples could become airborn flambeaus.
m lp -explodes-in-flames-182257.phpl _fire.html
http://wcco.com/consumer/local_story_148150249.ht
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-lapto
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/08/del
I used to keep spare AA batteries in my pockets, alongside coins and keys. I learned a very painful lesson not to do that anymore.
I agree with the most part, but I had a similar rant about fingernail clippers once and kinda changed my mind. I was talking to a buddy of mine's dad...who is a rather large guy with combat experience... I said something about how stupid the fingernail clipper ban was and he looked at me and just said "Would you want me to have a pair of finger nail clippers when I attack you?" I sat and thought about it and all the soft parts of my face suddenly became very sensitive... So while I think the ban is still pretty stupid, he really did put the every item is a potentially lethal weapon argument into nice perspective. The only real solution is to fly naked with no carry ons which is just the epitome of stupid overreaction, but still....every day items can be very lethal.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
It's probably wrong of me, but I just know I'm going to have to chuckle at all those Dell and Apple owners when I walk onto the plane with my SONY laptop.
Because that's likely beyond the intellectual abilities of the people who need to enforce the rules.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
I think you're overestimating the amount of time, effort and intellect airlines have available to screen passengers.
You can teach chimps to recognize a Dell or Apple logo, you likely cannot teach them to verify against a serial number database (which would need to be maintained too, since the recall might well be expanded)
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
Give me a break. They're not making you fly naked; nail clippers are less dangerous than, say, ballpoint pens.
Next time your buddy's dad asks you such a dumb question, ask him if he'd be willing to attack 150 people simultaneously with a pair of nail clippers.
Following the link to "Will Virgin allow on board exploding Sony batteries in IBM ThinkPads?" I found something weird about the story. While I don't contest the Thinkpad burned up, I think the story surrounding the incident is a little difficult to believe. Check out the story and explain to me this:
"I spoke to the laptop owner (while getting close for some pictures!) and he said he his laptop was an IBM"...
There is absolutely no one in the photos or anywhere around, making me think these are stock or airport photos taken after the incident, not from an opportunist.
"Notice the circular hotspot on the floor where the thing actually burned."...
Come on, it's from the base of the divider stand. Also note that the chair has been pulled back.
Looks more like someone had a problem while sitting in the waiting area not running off a plane!
Based on that I think we need to question the entire story.
How does banning batteries for two laptop brands equal banning the laptops themselves?
I'm curious. If the proportion of people injured or killed in flight is equal to or greater than the proportion of users killed or injured owing to exploding laptop batteries, will Virgin discontinue its flights?
Hmmmm well guess I better fly Virgin Galactic instead. Seriously though I've already returned my iBook battery and received my new non-explodey one.
Actually when I travel I typically have at least 6 lithium ion batteries in my carry-on: laptop, spare, camera, cellphone, PSP, and Archos MP3 player. The only other items I usually have are my bathroom items that aren't already banned. When they ban all lithium-ion batteries I'll have no need for a carry-on anymore.
I didn't say I agree with the bans, and the flying naked thing was sort of sarcastic but you apparently missed that. So...next time you have such a dumb response ask yourself if the last set of attackers attacked 150 people simultaneously with a knife/box cutter. You have however demonstrated the big picture thinking that can only be achieved by those not in the situation...humans are expendable, if you have 150 vs 1 you can obviously win even if you end with 148 and 3 dead. I wonder if it would be so clear cut if you had to be the first 1 or 2 to try to stop the guy and were likely to become seriously injured or dead.
The point I was making is that "nail clippers are not a threat" is simply not true, that almost any every day item can be a deadly weapon, and the only viable solution would be to fly naked, which would be stupid overreaction, and that life inherrently involves some risk.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
At that height I bet the efficiency on a solar charger would be enough to charge a spare battery, you can also ask the airline if you can mount it on the outside of the plane like the RVers do. I'm sure pilots from the south will understand.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
In case you fly Virgin and are lucky enough to get a seat with a power source for your iBook or PowerBook, keep this in mind:/ 1710258
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/13
For the life of me, I cannot grasp that the hell is in the minds of these corporate lackeys. Will they ever realize that assembling things on the cheap not only endangers lives, but ends up costing tons more in the long run, by way of recalls, damage control and alienated customers?
That said, now that Apple is doing a massive recall, the very least they should do is give out some sort of certificate that the battery has been replaced with a newer, safer model. These guys (Apple and Virgin) should be in talks about it.
If all else fails, at least you can kick back in your incredibly cramped Airbus seat, sipping from a can of nasty Virgin Cola, playing quarter-of-a-century-old Nintendo games, all the while trying to scrape the breakfast muffin dough that has turned to glue in the roof of your mouth. On a more sinister note, maybe Richard Branson has his eye on the battery market? Virgin Batteries, "The Life Of Your Laptop".
Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
Oh come on. Even ignoring any negative stereotypes you may have about the intelligence of security and airport personnel in general, what kind of "intellectual abilities" could identifying battery model numbers require? Valid gripes would include the extra time it would take to check every Apple and Dell battery, or the hassle to passengers, but not claiming that security officers don't have the capability to match numbers on a battery to numbers on a list.
I'd be scared shitless of the ones in the cargo bay in checked-in luggage, especially now that no one can carry the usual huge pile of crap into the cabin, or the pallet-load of battery packs in cargo. Even the ones stuffed in the overhead bins are more dangerous than the ones on your tray table, which if it catches on fire, will quickly be tossed hot-potato style to a waiting army of flight attendants with extinguishers, trained to deal with the situation.
Sounds like defensive lawyering.
And there are substatial risks with wiring each seat with outlets, whether low voltage DC or mains AC.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
...send out nice authentic laminated Apple business card-sized list of the serial number of the fubared batteries to all the airports it can muster. It's absurd to have all of something banned because some of them may have a problem.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
really now, since the 9/11 attacks, people no long play victim and let hijackers do what THEY decide. Also realize that the 9/11 attackers were not stupid by any means. ANYBODY who tried to attack someone on a plane with fingernail clippers is going down and the initial attackee is not likely to have life threatening injuries. I agree that a pen is more dangerous but is also not going to be capable of more than one or two injured.
For goodness sake, they were taking fingernail clippers from people visiting the Statue of Liberty! When I heard that security personnel knew of liquid explosive attempts since the late 1990s, I could not believe we were not told to keep all POTENTIAL liquid substances in checked bagage and out of carry-on.
We don't have to fly naked but we could streamline the system so that carry-on was a special form of checked baggage and thereby greatly reduce potential assembled weapon type of issues. I don't think that laptops and cellphones should be allowed in the cabin because of the potential energy of the battery packs. Light one of those foam seats on fire and all hell is going to break loose. And I don't think an LiOn battery fire is going to get put out very easily.
But the TSA will probably wait til some faulty battery goes up or someone actually does it on purpose before they 'decide' it's in our best interest to not fly with these. I'd rather see them pro-active in a 'smart' way than freak out and look like dumb shits everytime something happens. IMO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
You should of just rented a car and taken I-294 to Milwaukee
Spontaneous Human Combustion
I like microcars
that after all the 'precautions' at the airport these days ON TOP OF: -getting to the airport -waiting for the plane (in multiple chunks of time depending on delays and security &cet.) -waiting for checked baggage -getting to wherever (hotel/meeting/&cet.) that the time difference between the two probably isn't all that much for distances below (educated pull out the arse) 500 miles.
The problem with your idea is that it makes sense.
Internet petitions just keep on going 'round for years, kind of like the Energizer Bunny. Yeah, Batteries.
The answer is simple. Don't fly virgin. I haven't flown virgin since that sophmore trip to Europe.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
the airline provided no details as to what proper wrapping entails
"Here is some duct tape. Please affix your laptop to the underside of the plane. If your laptop falls off in the course of the flight, we will refund you the cost of the tape."
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
Hahahaha. Oh god, that's hilarious. Lawsuit? On the grounds that you cannot use your laptop on a flight? Oh, man, fucking priceless!
In these cases, the batteries were not on, nor even in computers. The things are dangerous.
Good thing I don't have to use them on Virgin.
My PowerBook goes everywhere with me; not close by, not partially disassembled, but sleeping nearby and ready to be used.
I like Virgin but they can go to hell. And I'm not booking any more long haul BizTrip in Virgin Upper Class either.
I'll give the Biz to a more rational airline.
A message from our sponsor
We think that noone will play along. We really haven't had any real events to prove that, and I'm not entirely convinced that people won't continue to play along. I am in no way justifying these bans, and I think people are having a really really hard time with that. I think they are retarded and that life involves some risk and people need to quit their bitching, if they are so afraid then they can pony up the gas money and drive. The only way to eliminate all these "oh my god the boogeyman!" risks is to treat the plane like a prison bus.
:)
We weren't told then because it wasn't nearly as profitable to keep the populace in a constant state of fear. The administration at the time didn't have the same goals or methods. We weren't told because the threat was terribly small, terribly difficult, terribly unlikely, and not profitable to keep us all trembling in our homes. We have known about this 'liquid explosive' threat since the 90s or so...and it has yet to happen even once...so why is it that suddenly liquids are the new fear buzz with TSA...
Rather than any more stupid bans or fear based policy we could do the math on the whole thing and realize how statistically stupid we are being. I am FAR more likely to die by getting hit by a drunk driver rather than any form of terrorist attack. Should we take all drunk drivers to guantanimo? Why do they take my ligher and give me matches when its easier to make an incidiary device with a book of matches? Why are they taking everyones fluids when so many chemists have all but totally debunked that paranoid fantasy. Why do we have to show ID to get on the plane when 20 years back or so Americans were outraged those evil communists made the poor oppressed people of Russia do the same. Its about time Americans wake up and pull their heads out of the sand...deal with the various threats and risks of day to day life proportionately. # of Americans killed on US soil in the last 7 years due to terrorists a little over 3400, # of Americans killed on US soil in the last 7 years due to alcohol related instances somewhere in the ballpark of 2 million. We are just being kept paranoid and stupid for a group of profiteer whores running the show. And no damnit...if they take away my beer to deal with that threat then by god we are going to have a fight!
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
It is really stupid beyond belief to ban only those manufacturers who recalled batteries, makeing their models in fact much safer than other manufacturers, especially those no-names that actually pose a higher risk because people don't even know that their batteries are dangerous.
They should have either banned *all* Li-Ion batteries, or find other ways how to deal with it, e.g. put fire-proof cases or asbestos bags/blankets on the plane where they can drop a burning laptop into. On Lufthansa planes you were not allowed to use CD-Players, but you could use *every* other electronic device because some idiot in the management must have been convinced that CD-Players emit specific electromagnetic interference.
These freaks who try to provide security by uninformed actionism really suck, because at the same time they tend to ignore *real* risks as soon as they start to affect their bottom line.
p.
Without order, nothing can exist. Without chaos, nothing can be created.
The Dell recall affects some 4.1 million batteries, which is only about 18% of those sold over the last few years. The Apple recall affects 1.1 million batteries, a similar fraction of their products.
Of the six batteries in my household (some dell, some apple), just one of those has been recalled. There are far more Dell and Apple batteries out there that aren't affected by the recall than are. If someone were able to furbish documentation that their battery is in the clear, will Virgin be able to continue banning it? Will any business traveler continue to use them?
Well...what can I said about the laptop batteries made by Sony explodes..it's kinda of sad to hear this incident. It shouldn't happen in the first place. Such a big and well-known electronic manufacturer should have known this problem. Dell and Apple, i guess this inceident must be a big 'hit' on them...I remembered my friends was initially wanted to buy Dell laptop because it is affordable and reliable and Apple, expensive yet design and quality is attractive and undeniable. Due to this incident, my friends told me that thanks gosh they didn't buy it...well, by right the 3 big company Sony, Dell and Apple should be more precaution about their products before releasing them because reputation creates confidence and security in the public's heart.
Those who had bought the Dell Laptop,check out below info:
There are 4 models of affected Dell laptops: Dell Latitude(TM), Inspiron(TM), XPS(TM) and Dell Precision Mobile Workstation(TM) notebook computers.
These are potentially affected batteries were sold with the following models of Dell notebook computers or separately as secondary batteries:
Latitude: D410, D500, D505, D510, D520, D600, D610, D620, D800, D810
Inspiron: 500M, 510M, 600M, 700M, 710M, 6000, 6400, 8500, 8600, 9100, 9200, 9300, 9400, E1505, E1705
Precision: M20, M60, M70, M90
XPS: XPS, XPS Gen2, XPS M170, XPS M1710
This is unfortunately VERY typical of mucky-mucks who don't know squat about technology. It's also a case of using FUD to exercise control over people. "Oh, cellphone cause the avionics to go haywire!" Yeah right, that's bullshit. How many people have left their cellphones on in their carry-ons? Can you document ONE case where a cellphone screws up the avionics? Aside from the fact that above a certain altitude you get no signal and end up draining your battery. "Oh, cellphones cause gasoline pumps to explode." Oh, really? Are there ANY spark-inducing components in a cellphone? That went out with rotary dial phones. More likely some schmuck was smoking right next to the filler.
Link article has ad at top for 'Great deals on refurbished Dell laptops'... Of course I reloaded and clicked it a few times to show my approval of this brilliant advertising strategy. Could this be the start of something great? Man, OH MAN, do I hope so. House fire caused by deranged child -> link to Zippo lighters and Diamond brand matches. Concrete tunnel collapses -> link to 'get your engineering degree online in two weeks' Massive computer project over budget and fails -> link to 'Microsoft enterprise systems' etc...
I just flew Virgin from San Francisco to London on Wednesday, and they indeed made an announcement telling people who wanted to use Dell and Apple laptops to identify themselves to a flight attendant. Personally I don't want to be on the plane when a battery explodes, but I'm hoping it's a conversation with the passenger about whether their computer is included in the recalll, whether they participated in the recall, and where an outlet is if they have a vulnerable computer, rather than a blanket ban.
Hell, you could probably use the trays on the seats as a weapon.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
I have been waiting for the ban on laptop AC adapters. I know if I am ever on a plane and some asshat threatens me with a box cutter I will go mideval on his ass. Laptop becomes Exploding Dell Shield and AC adapter becomes Transformer Cube Flail. Weighted brick on metal cord would give me a tad more range than a boxcutter.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
If you banned all laptops from planes, that would wreak havoc to business across the country. Personally I cant do my job if I cant travel with a laptop. and there are thousands of people in the same boat, which based on their frequency of travel, make up a significant portion of airline business.
We know that Samantha Carter uses a Dell, she won't be able to solve problems with it if she's on a plane anymore! THE EART IS IN JEOPARDY FROM THE GOAULD AND ORI NOW! BITCHES!
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.