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Suit Blames Videogames for Homicides
An anonymous reader writes "Family members of three victims of a shooting by a 14-year-old have filed a $600 million lawsuit against the makers of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City. From the article: 'The $600 million lawsuit names several companies and Cody Posey, who it alleges played the game ''obsessively'' for several months before he shot his father, stepmother and stepsister in July 2004 ... The plaintiffs accuse the corporate defendants -- Sony Corporation of America, Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. and its subsidiary, Rockstar Games -- of a civil conspiracy, saying they should have foreseen their entertainment would spawn such copycat violence.'" It may or may not be a coincidence that Jack Thompson is the plaintiff's attorney.
This suit has absolutely no chance of success. Apart from being naive in its entirety, it would go against many precedent cases.
"Sam Donaldson's New Mexico ranch sued the makers of the video game ''Grand Theft Auto: Vice City'' on Monday, claiming the crimes would not have occurred had the teenager never played the violent game."
He would never have shot them if he didn't have access to the gun either. Simply put, since gun makers aren't accountable for unintended actions carried out with their products, neither are game makers.
"The game trained him ''how to point and shoot a gun in a fashion making him an extraordinarily effective killer."
By that rationale, most action films would also be complicit in many homicides. This accusation has been thrown out of court so many times I won't even bother to cite individual cases.
"The plaintiffs accuse the corporate defendants [...] of a ''civil conspiracy,'' saying they should have foreseen their entertainment ''would spawn such copycat violence"
Again, gun and knife makers know their products can be used to commit homicides in the wrong hands yet can't be held accountable so neither can the game producers.
I'm sure however their lawyers - who probably strongly encouraged them to pursue the case - will still get paid regardless of the absolute certainty that the case will fail.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
The plaintiff's cousin's former roommate being the lawyer would be a coincidence. That someone doing what he normally does doens't consisitute a coincidence.
Too funny, when I clicked on this story, the add that came up on the right was for GTA: Vice City Stories. Just goes to show that no publicity is bad publicity...
Ok, so if the 14-year-old playing the rated "M" game (for those 17+) was playing obsessively for months, then I would argue that the fault lies with whomever was responsible for him. This sounds like the fault of parents/guardians to properly raise the child. Any child that plays ANYTHING obsessively (as in, to the exclusion of any other interests) clearly has some kind of mental/emotional problem and should have help sought for them.
Failure to parent and seek help cannot be blamed on Sony, Take-Two, Rockstar or anyone else. However, the direct consequences of allowing the child to continue to act in an obsessive manner can be blamed directly on parental negligence.
File for summary dismissal based on their own grounds for the suit.
Linux - because it doesn't leave that Steve Ballmer aftertaste.
Notice that it was a 13 year old, playing a mature rated game (17+). If anyone is at fault, it is the parents who let him play the game.
It may or may not be a coincidence that Jack Thompson is the plaintiff's attorney.
Zonk, would you cut it out with your pointless editorializing? We all know that Jack Thompson's involvement in suits like this has nothing to do with his irrational hatred of anything game-related.
The current batch of video games are nothing but an unspoken "plan" to desensitize youth to violence and killing with the hopes of creating better soldiers for the coming clash of the civilizations. The government will never let such suits go through.
Why not sue whoever was letting a 14 year old play a rated M game for hours on end? No, we must sue the ones with the most money instead. Great logic.
I'm suing the makers of T.R.O.N
who it alleges played the game ''obsessively'' for several months before he shot his father
Cody Posey probably also did other things on a regular basis ''obsessively'' for several months before he shot his father, such as eating, sleeping and using the bathroom. Are they naming fast-food restaurants, furniture retailers and plumbing merchants in the suit also?
Correlation != Causation.
Having said that, I noticed the following statement in the first post (above):
since gun makers aren't accountable for unintended actions carried out with their products, neither are game makers
Unintended actions? Guns have but one purpose - to fire bullets. You'd have to be pretty obtuse to claim that a gun shooting a bullet is an unintended purpose of a gun - hell, it's the only purpose.
Or rather, it's the stupid parents. Unless letting a kid play a violent video game "obsessively" for several months is good parenting this year. But I don't think so.
Nope, no sig
If we give their argument a benefit of the doubt and he the game taught him to do this, it still falls on parenting to limit is amount of time playing the game. Parents have an obligation to teach their kids morals, the difference of right and wrong, and general social skills among other things. If your son is playing any game an excessive amount, maybe it's time to take him out to the baseball field or footbal field or hunting or whatever. Teach him to be constructive at a young age.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
She stomps mushrooms, shoots fireballs, and has demolished at least a dozen of my nice barrels with a massively oversized hammer.
Step into a huge movement. Don't Tread In Me.
Back in the 50's did parents sue Clayton Moore for encouraging kids to play with guns? There has always been and always will be a certain group that attempt to shift the blame from parenting and personal responsibility to an "external influence". Since the Baroque era and most likely before pop culture has always been tagged as the cause of the decline of civilization. Where is the uproar over television, GTA is far less gory than the average episode of CSI. I've read many books with far more graphic violence. Those are accepted now since the old guard have lived with them most if not all of their lives. When we are all in our 60's and 70's video games will be ok and we will surely be bitching about something else new that we dont understand and see as a corruption of morality.
This reminds me of a woman I met a few weeks back. She told me she plays WoW but that she doesn't get too far in the game because she refuses to kill anything with a humanoid shape. In essense if it walks on two legs, has two arms and a head centered on the upright torso she will not kill it.
She still enjoys the game, but she realises that she will never get too far. It's the same thing with GTA.
By the way, in GTA:San Andreas you get to fly a plane. Why haven't we seen an increase in plane thefts if GTA is such a good tutor? In the many Spider-man and Batman games we see characters seinging from roof to roof. Why have'nt we seen an increase in morons trying this if video games are like Jedi and have so much influence on the weak-minded?
We have always been at war with Eurasia!
It's only a matter of time before Queen Elizabeth is assassinated by some bishop.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Where can I buy one of those real-world guns with a slightly clunky auto-aim feature?
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
And on what grounds do they think they deserve $200 Million per deceased family member? I don't mean to be a dick, but I don't think that's a reasonable estimate of their value...
It's easy, you just hold down the lock button, and then press the other buttons to cycle between targets. I'm not sure exactly where those buttons are on a real gun, but it shouldn't take long to find them.
I see. So if he was 18 and on his own, it would have all been ok?
I find several things deplorable:
1. People love laying blame on ONE thing as the cause of something. The game isn't at fault, but it may have been somewhat of a contributing factor. I know when I used to play some of those cockpit racing games at a Dave and Buster's, when I got in my car it felt a little weird. Gamers want to say that games have no impact on what a person does, but I think they do. So do movies, music, advertisements, etc. If they had no impact, then these things wouldn't exist. They have positive and negative IMPACTS. But they aren't the sole cause of anything.
2. That violent games like these are so popular. I loved Quake, and Half-Life, etc. They were violent as hell. But I wasn't obsessed with them. I hate the fact that our society is obsessed with violence as entertainment. Just stop and look around. I may be a small part of it, and I am not suggesting that getting rid of these video games will solve it. It just kind of disturbs me when I step back and look at it. I guess when you glorify war, and turn a blind eye to the reality of it, there isn't much else you can expect.
3. Our legal system, and what it has done to our society. Dispicable. It has tainted people to the point where nobody is willing to admit any fault with anything, for fear of being sued. The maker of these games can't say "yeah, ok, it is a pretty ruthless and violent game. But we certainly aren't responsible for this kid's actions." They have to say "We have a sticker on it! He shouldn't have been playing it anyway. It has no influence on people... Where were his PARENTS! It is their fault, not ours."
4. All of these reasons roll together nicely into one package - and nobody will sincerely mention that this is a tragedy, and people were needlessly killed. See items 1 - 3.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
3) Jack Thompson sees this on the news and calls the family up telling them he knows where the blame "really" lies.
Also not a coincidence but IMO it's the most likely of scenarios.
Collector's Edition
Ignoring that the attourney is Jack-'I wont actually dontate to charaity even though I said I would neener-neener-neener'-Thompson :
.. lets face it .. the kid probably came from a shitty homelife in the first place, giving him a LOT more [to a kid] justifiable reasons to kill his family than playing video games.
.. but chances are .. any homelife that will alow him to 'obsessivly' play a video games for 2-3 days straight .. well .. lets just say there are already issues there.
caviet: I am under the assumption that 'obsessivly playing for 55 hours' is in a few close together sessions, not spread out over 8 months.
One might just question exatly *WHAT* kind of a home life would allow a kid to play an ultra-violent video game for 55 hours in a two day period.
I mean
Maybe no one was HOME for a few days. Maybe he was abused. who knows
just my question on the matter.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
According to the corporations' lawyers, these families watched the show The Practice "obsessively" for several months, and were given the false impression that you can sue anyone for anything and make it an enjoyable and profitable time for all.
They have hinted they may sue ABC again on behalf of same corporations afterwards. They claim that ABC gave them the idea to sue ABC by airing The Practice, which the lawyers also watch "obsessively," casuing them to sue ABC, resulting in financial damage to the corporations in the form of lawyers' fees.
No word yet about whether or not they would sue a third time to recoup the fees incurred during the second suit.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Yes. Because guns *DO* kill. Games don't.
What do you mean. I can beat someone to death with a game console, shoot them with a gun, burn them with gasoline, beat them with a baseball bat, or punch them in the throat over and over again.
In each case, I'm the one doing the killing. Guns just make killing easier.
I've decided to climb a clock tower and take out half my hometown with a sniper rifle. I never would've done this if Jack Thompson didn't do what he does. As such, he is completely responsible for the deaths I cause.
- Video games have taught me -
How to effectively wield: knifes, swords, shields, heavy armor, maces, axes, staves, pole arms, bows, crossbows, slingshots, boomerangs, bug catching nets, nunchucks, ninja stars, pistols, sniper rifles, automatic weapons, missile launchers, grenade launchers, bombs, railguns, plasma weapons, BFGs, gravity guns, personal teleporters, chainsaws, hookshots, and many other things.
How to ride/drive/pilot: horses, skateboards, surfboards, snowboards, hoverboards, motorcycles, race cars, helicopters, commercial jets, fighter jets, tanks, jetskis, boats, hovercraft, Arwings, X-Wings, A-Wings, B-Wings, Tie Fighters, and the USS Enterprise 1701. To name a few.
Use of the following skills: magic, psyonics, alchemy, dancing, singing, proficiency with musical instruments, the Force, hacking, martial arts, military tactics, espionage, mining, medical skills, and legal skills.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
As I posted on my blog, if you look around the courtv site, you see lots of coverage of Cody Posey's case. During a police interview Posey claimed his father forced him to have sex with his step-mother and during the trial testified that his father has emotionally and physically abused him for years. So Thompson is arguing that playing videogames is more dangerous than child abuse.
Looking at the details of the case,and reading between the lines, it basically seems that the father's side of the family denies all the abuse charges and wanted Cody Posey sentenced as an adult, while the mother(birth mother, not step-mother) and her side believes all the abuse charges and wanted Cody Posey sentenced as a minor. He got sentenced as a minor, so the father's side is basically mad about it.
The lawsuit is a wrongfull death suit against Cody himself as well as Take 2. Therefore, it seems certain that Cody's mother's side of the family will be pushing the abuse angle heavilly. Therefore, I can't imagine that this suit will actually even get to talking about videogames. I imagine that it will be mainly about excrusiating detail about the abuse.
Moreover, Sanders, the lawyer in New Mexico who is actually trying the lawsuit does not seem to be associated with a large law firm, so a) if it does actually focus on videogames, it will be Sander and Thompson against an army of corporate lawyers and b) the research I found about Sanders indicates that he is mainly a contract lawyer which doesn't seem so great of a choice for such a lawsuit.
Jack is in way over his head and is caught in between this battle between the father's family and the mother and her family. I'm really tempted to think that Jack chose this case specifically so that he could get a bunch of publicity and then when the case starts and focuses on the abuse, he can pull a New Orleans move and back away blaming family for not telling him about the abuse and accusing the horrible big law firm of ganging up on little old him.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Tsss. No need to have this silly debate again. I only wanted to point out that guns being banned is not a bad thing.
I find the above two statements to be contradictory. The concept of gun bans and video game bans are similar in many ways. It is the basic argument of personal responsibility versus outside influence. Which is responsible, the person who commits an act or the things that influence that decision and outcome? The people in this case are arguing that video games trained the child to be a better killer, making him better at and more likely to kill those he murdered. Gun control proponents argue that guns make it easier and more likely that a person will kill another. In both cases, they're claiming access to a physical object is responsible for the end result and we need to remove access to that object.
If I left my kid alone to watch slasher movies and Ted Bundy documentaries ad nauseum, should I be surprised when he starts mimicking the behavior? If I allow my kid to visit chat rooms without occasional supervision or education, should I be surprised if a pedophile tries to introduce him or herself?
I realize that parents want their kids to be happy, but you're their parent, not the birthday clown trying to entertain them. Sometimes you just have to be a bastard for their own good.
Ya know, I played that same game obsessively. In Grand Theft Auto, I religiously ran over pedistrians with my car, attacked police officers and the elderly with little discrimination, hired prostitutes and then killed them to get my money back after getting my full value from them, blew up masses of people with a rocket launcher from atop a parking garage, stole a tank, and stole an army helicopter. Yet amazingly, none of that has translated to real life. Perhaps because I have the ability to differentiate between real world and games...perhaps because my parents instilled within me good moral values. Who knows. In truth, the parents HAVE to be blamed. My 14 year old won't be playing GTA....well, when I have a 14 year old he won't be playing GTA. There's a reason the game is rated M. Mature. 14 is not Mature. Mature means that you understand the difference between reality and video games. If you don't qualify in that category, well, your parents should be aware of that, and not allow you play such games. Granted, I will say that retailers should be held more accountable for selling games such as GTA to minors....but parents should do their research before purchasing a game for their kids, as well. The rest of this family seems to paint a good picture, however. They are probably upholding the "blame corporate America" philosophy that was so advocated by their departed. I'm sure it'd be horrible if something like this happened within my family, but I'll never know, as we hold ourselves responsible for what we, as well as those we are accountable for, do. Parents need to do their damn jobs, I hope that the family loses this suit, and bad.
Annyong!
No, seriously, blame the idiot parents who bought their 14 year old kid a game clearly labled Mature and in which the title itself is the name of a fellony. With a name like Grand Theft Auto, did they think it would be about a nice man who races cars and teaches yoga in his spare time? Honestly, there is no content in the GTA series designed for, or fit for anyone under 18.
This kid was 14 so of course content that rough would warp his brain. Most video game vendors in my area won't sell Rated M games to minors without a parent. If the family actually thought this a real concern they should have taken the game away. I personally enjoy the GTA series but I don't even put it in the Playstation until my kid is in bed. When I am not playing my rated M games they get locked up in the safe. That is why the "Hot Coffee" incident made me mad. Anyone too young to see animated porn should really not be playing at carjacking and killing people with golf clubs, guns, swords, flamethrowers, or cars.
Neglectful parents unwilling to take an interest in their child's activities are just asking for trouble. Just like parents need to monitor what movies their kids watch, games need to be paid attention to and the content discussed. If you are unwilling to educate yourself you don't deserve to reproduce.
Then again, how about just blaming the abusive father...
No animals were harmed in the making of this sig.
Well, there was that one puppy, but he is all better now.
Let me lay in with my experiences with gaming and how they IMPROVED my life and helped me see a worlds beyond the closed walls I lived in for 16 years of my life.
My mother was, and is still unfortunately mentally unstable. She became increasingly so as she grew older. She didn't have the skills or the capacity to take care of me, her two sisters and ailing mother on her side. Unable to coupe with work and what it took to take care of a child she kept me locked in my room when I wasn't required to go to school. She, on many occasions tried to take me out of school, and it was only at the behest of school officials and councilors, and my own force of will that I was able to come back and finish high school.
Being someone well under the poverty line, single with a child, with 3 other people living in the same roof, government money rained in. Every way money could be fleeced from the welfare department, family children services, my estranged father was used. Which should have been a life line. It should have paid for school, college, doctors, and necessities. But being someone in her diminished capacity she squandered the money on collectibles from her youth, a house well beyond she could afford, and new cars. The one thing she did for me is kept me occupied, and the best way to do that in the late 80's through the 90's was with gaming systems. I had every system the day of release and a large library of games. I also eventually got a computer with Internet access.
And that's what saved me. Where I come from, there's close to no jobs, no good schools, and almost no growth. The majority of people extort welfare and usually turn to drugs and theft to get by. Being manager of a Sonic's or McDonald's is a big thing around here. Outside of that the only thing you can be is a nurse at the local hospital (Phoebe is the largest private real estate owner and only truly successful business in the region, other manufactures are all shutting down or not hiring) or join the Marines. Ask anyone from here and they'll all tell you the same thing, you don't get anything out of life, you'll never leave town, and you shouldn't try. Above all, you should never try, you just waste the energy it takes to get up in the morning to go to crummy job to get by.
All of those people grew up in almost the same environment, whether it was substance abuse, or general poverty, one way or another their parents and household was broken with few exceptions. But all of those people just feed the cycle. They drop out, they smoke weed, they have kids before their 21, they work at Burger King, they hate their life.
But I didn't, and you know why. Because when Crono, Marle, and Lucca found Lavos bringing the world to an end in the future, they didn't go Well shit, life's a bitch. and went home and smoked crack. I wanted to go to school, watched the History Channel, and used the Internet to learn (and, gasp, didn't look up porn all day). Why? Because Snake knew 6 languages, had a vast knowledge of culture and history, and was a motherfucking bad ass. I wanted to be that bad ass. Anyone who wishes they could be Solid Snake should know what Manhattan means. And after I finished school I've worked non-stop to start my own business, which is about to come to fruition instead of sticking with some shithole job, I've spent my time and money working for something that will pay off better in the long run. And take a guess why? Because Tommy Vercetti did that's why. He didn't take lip from anyone who was in his way, he didn't do drugs, and above all let anything get in the way of what he needed to do to climb to the top.
Games did more than give me good role models when there wasn't any at hand ether. If it weren't for video games I wouldn't have been exposed to classical music, and would have been stuck with this watered down rap and rock companies push on us these days. I wouldn't have learned how to read and write as fast as I did without a hands-on parent. I wouldn't have been exposed to a plethora
It would be impossible for me to shoot or stab or bomb another human being and even attempting to do so would make me sick to my stomach.
I used to think, back when I was a small, angelic child, that I could never punch someone. Then this kid kept pestering me, and he got a fist to the forehead, knocked him on his ass.
It's a question of when push comes to shove... I never seeked out agression, but when it came, it found me unwilling, but quite able.
Violence in video games and movies does NOT desensitize you to violence in the real world.
In fact, I think that violent movies and games are usefull in reducing agressive tendencies, through catharsis.
When I'm stressed out, and I feel like dragging jerks out of their cars and forcing them to swallow their turn-signal levers, a good violent flick will calm me down. Then I can drive and tolerate the ubiquitous stupidity for another day.
You can't take the sky from me...
So he shot his parents after playing GTA. You mean he played GTA, got a gun, and shot his parents. He shot the very people who were responsible for ensuring that he didn't play violent games, and didn't get access to a gun.
Seems fair to me....bad parenting should be a capital offense. It's just too bad he killed the girl too.
Before I played command and conquer, I would have found the concept of global domination repugnant. Now I can't stop plotting. I've ordered major offenses in two foreign countries, and I've been eyeballing two others. I have found though, that in real life, it's not as easy as it is in C&C, so I'm thinking if I can't turn things around soon, I'll probably sue the makers of C&C.
-GWB
"Our morality is good, theirs is repressive."- Partisanship Rule #3
Actually, if you had read up on the case, it isn't, ultimately about that. Thompson may think it's about that, but it's not. What it's about is the family of a sick bastard (Cody's father) who would fit quite nicely into the Roarke family from Sin City trying to cover for the fact that a family member did things which, had the authorities found out about this earlier (and a good forensic investigation team gotten involved), would have gotten him arrested and imprisoned for life for sexual abuse of a minor, assault and battery (of said minor), and various other child abuse charges - and would have gotten that kid out of that home.
You want to know how low Jack really will go, when the rubber hits the road? We're about to find out. That is, of course, provided that Sony and Take Two have done their homework on this case - if they have, then there are numerous expert witnesses who could provide testimony on the psychological effects of the abuse that the real victim in this case, the boy who commited the murders, suffered at the hands of his birth father. Calling the forensic investigators from this case to the stand should bolster their defense as well. Jack might be able to argue that GTA helped provide the motiviation, but unless he completely ignores the disgusting conduct of Cody Posey's father and argues that Cody was either:
- Lying and made up his claims (and injured himself to back up his claims of abuse) or...
- Telling the truth, but was pushed over the edge by GTA, not getting stuck by his father for not mucking the stalls fast enough then...
Jack will have his work cut out for him.Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
we should rid finally ourselves of Wagner, whose #1 fan was, after all, Adolf Hitler.
Now I'm gonna have to call shenanigans here. Robert Wagner was, like, 3 years old when Hitler was appointed Reichskanzler. That's WAAAAY too young to have a fan club. Really.
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