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If Not America, Then Where?
Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
The Netherlands. The fact that I couldn't become a citizen and I can't speak the language stops me. Oh yeah, plus I like America still. :-)
Yay, I have a sig.
I always kinda liked the idea that I get to live in the future just by staying alive.
Infuriate left and right
It's obviously best to simply give up and leave, rather than actually stand up and do something about changing your country.
In almost every case it comes down to visas and border controls that stop humans freely moving around their planet. On the surface it looks like a good idea, but it's absolutely ridiculous that a human shouldn't be able to freely roam the public spaces of their own planet!
:)
I'd rather go live out in the nowhereness of Canada or Australia or something and get out of the way, but there's no hope for any of that in the near future as countries have lots of quirky requirements, laws, and rules for gaining entry
Well, not really, but by the time I was 25 I have had tech jobs in both Japan and Germany(I'm currently in the fatherland). While there certainly are some good aspects to living abroad, being away from home can kind of suck. My mom was hit by a car recently, she is ok but the feeling that you are so far away never helps the situation.
My advice to Americans is to learn another language and to not rule anything out. Though I would suggest Asia, because that seems to be where the future is headed. I plan on going back to the states for a few years to get my PhD then heading out somewhere in Asia(probably not Japan because although they have had some nice growth recently, the sun is setting. Plus white fanboys give foreigners a bad name there).
Monstar L
If it were not for the money, language, and responsibility issues, I'd move to a Scandanavian country in a heartbeat.
As it is, I believe that America is exporting its culture at an incredible rate, and the best way to stop what I see as an unbelievably bad world situation is by attempting to modify it from within the States. I'm not doing a great job, but just being here and dissenting my little piece has more of an impact than living outside the country and bitching to other people that aren't there about how much my country sucks.
I lived overseas, and found that there were a few things true about me personally - 1) wherever I went, I was the same person. Ergo, I was pissed off and unhappy because that's what I started out as. I've attempted to change that. 2) wherever I went, I was followed by the influence of the things I had left the country to avoid, one way or another. Thus I am back here to attempt to modify the things about both me and the world around me that irked me so much when I was not living in the States. I don't know if I'll manage to change the world enough to make any sort of difference should I leave again, but by the time I can afford to leave again for any extended period of time, I will be able to say that I'm at least trying to alleviate certain negative influential factors that result from our social structure.
My little site.
* a country where the media and the politicians don't do their best to induce fear and unrest from relatively minor threats (lightning, I believe is still a bigger threat to the average american, than terrorism)
* a country where the most popular news feeds are actually independent
* a country that wouldn't embarras me with a completely selfish and brutally violent foreign policy
We do everything America does, only we do a worse job, less efficiently, and with none of the individual rights in our Constitution* that you enjoy in the United States which allow the courts to pull the executive and congress back into line every now and then.** Although we have no president or equivalent, our parliament is a virtual dictatorship at present and crossing the floor on the basis of principle is almost entirely unheard of and considered to be little better than treason. We lack media diversity, and general awareness of political and human rights issues is virtually non-existent in the wider populace even by US standards.
In addition we are extremely poorly placed in relation to the most likely theatre of any future world war, and we have large quantities of uranium and natural gas which makes us an important strategic target.
* disclaimer, before someone who knows about Australian law attacks - we arguably have freedom of religion and a right to vote, and a limited right to freedom of 'political' speech, but all can be infringed on by federal laws with a legitimate other purpose
** yeah yeah, I know how politicised the courts are, but every now and then you DO get a decision like Hamdan in which the Supreme Court clobbers the executive for overstepping the line
Read Pynchon.
I moved to Austria.
I'll admit that the problems in the US weren't the only reason but they were a big motivating factor.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Finland: Land of metal, IRC, and hot chicks speaking a really strange language
Registered Linux user #421033
I'm only half joking.
If you are going to mess up your own country, and then leave, what makes you think we want you to come to ours and mess it up to.
This applies to pretty much anyone who
a) Wants to come here and change things to make here more like the place they just left.
b) Wants to come here and moan about why it's not like home.
c) Wants to come here and try to create a little bit of home, only talk to / socialise with / work with expats from their old country.
And especially
d) Wants to tell us that the way we live is ungodly and imoral, and change our laws to the way they think.
If you actually like the way we live, and you want to come here, learn our languages, go to our schools, live our lifestyles, and in short become one of us, then we'll pick you up at the airport.
Have a nice day all y'all.
D
http://davesboat.blogspot.com/
It's worth noting that the majority of the time, it isn't people who say that their country sucks and they want to leave, it's the patriotic goosesteppers who yell at anyone with any criticism and tell them "America, love it or leave it!"
Just thought I'd point that out. Frankly, one answer to this question could be: (1) Anywhere but here. (2) American psychopaths who pass themselves off as patriots.
News for Nerds != Nerdy News
Politics can be, and should be, news for nerds.
What's your GCNSEQNO?
Really though, even faking mentally challenged would be a total drain on my life.
Storm
That's easy,
Europe! I know it's not a country, but if you actually want to live abroad (forever, or for a few years to get a taste of a different lifestyle), then the obvious answer is somewhere in Europe.
Why? Because after a couple of years (it varies country to country), you can grab a passport and become an instant protected member of the EU. Now you don't have a choice of one country, but 25, (27 in a few years, and hopefully 28 with Turkey in a few more years).
And you get a choice of countries like Sweden or Denmark (consistently ranked as the most well educated, crime free, peaceful utopias on the planet), liberal countries like Germany or Amsterdam (there is no city in the WORLD like Berlin, it is just the most alive, party party, drug liberal place on Earth, no question), economic tigers like Ireland or the newer Eastern european countries (where jobs are easy to come by and the cost of living is low), or just places where you could live off a few grand and take it easy, like Portugal or Greece.
25 countries, most of them not requiring a second language (For sure, if you move to Scandinavia it'll be you that has the lower standard of English, I moved here 3 years ago and it's embarrassing to have an inferior grasp of my mother-tongue than do the locals). In some countries like Sweden, if you have a girlfriend here you can pick up a passport in 3 years.
And of course, Countries that are not in the EU (such as Switzerland or Norway or Iceland), will still be open to you because of the Schengen agreement.
Good luck! And wherever you decide to move to, just DO IT. It doesn't mean that you never have to go home, it doesn't mean you are running away from America's problems (you can retain your American citizenship and vote from abroad), it just means at a minimum that you are exploring how life in a much more liberal society would be like, and if many more people in the USA decided to live abroad in Europe for a few years of their youth, I very much doubt the country would be experiencing the problems it is having at the moment.
1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?
Easy. 1) New Zealand, 2) Money (or the lack thereof).
If you think hard, probably two things are keeping people to go where they think (or know) their lives would be better (for them, since this is as much subjective as objective):
- people: family, friends, neighbors, you name it, people can become very attached to others,
- financial resources: if you have to work 10-16 hours a day for living, paying mortages, etc., schooling your kids, its not that easy to just stand up and leave.
Until the average level of living throughout the planet won't reach a certain level, most people will just be stuck to places, all their lives long, give or take a few travels.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
I support everyones right to emigrate if they feel like they need to. Emigrés have also often been the deciding factor in overthrowing an oppressive government, in fact I'd say it's almost a prerequisite to have a strong expat community if you need to overthrow the government. These people need their freedom and ability to work, in order to help raise awareness about what is wrong with the way things are being run, and make changes. Someone being in jail for political reasons cannot really do much to change anything.
Nyhetsankaret.com -- det bÃsta av Sveriges Nyhetssido
As a Scandinavian who just visit USA occationally I guess I can tell why I hesitate to move there... From the European horizon USA looks really cool. You have the greatest companies, the greatest sports champs (except in soccer), you are the center of entertainment, modern culture and research. You have... so very much.
However, when in USA I feel that I am so far away from everything. Manhattan is the exception. In LA I have an hour in a car to anything. In Las Vegas it takes a day to get anywhere else.
So even if I am closer to many things when in USA, there are fewer things that I am really close to (walking distance). If it takes 5h or more to get there by car, the Atlantic ocean doesnt make a huge difference anyway.
Disclaimer: not actually American, though I did live there from 1981 until 1988.
Not always the easiest place to live, but rewarding a lot of the time: Southern Africa. And I am not referring to "We'd like to be State 51 please, if only you'll bring back the 1980s" South Africa, I am referring to southern sub-saharan Africa.
Whether you're here on a volunteer basis or you have a 'proper job' (like myself), there is a definite need for clued-up tech people to share their knowledge, and to help pull this place out of its rut. No need to be a charity: I get a salary and everything...
And do your research: not all sub-saharan countries are corruption-plagued dictatorships. Well, no more than the US anyway ...
Would I bail - sure. I'm only going to live another 40-50 years. Why not enjoy it someplace where I'm discovering new things daily, rather than stuck here where I'm pretty sure of my surroundings.
I am almost sure you are not really so "sure of your surroundings" as you think.
I have been overseas, and also driven or at least visited much of the US. There is as much mystery within a fifty mile radious of your house as there is whole continents away.
If you want to discover new things daily, all you need do is seek out one new poerson daily - for it is from other people that we truly learn things, here or abroad.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Absolutely. Great weather year round, good people, good activity, and if you don't like the culture of a place, move 5-10 miles and it's completely different. Plus some of the most scenic spots on the planet. Watching a sunrise in owens valley is quite possibly one of the best ways to begin a lazy morning.
Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses
First of all I'm a dual US-EU citizen and lack much nationalism for any country.
Honestly, I don't see any country which is better than the US for an intelligent, sometimes driven individual in terms of opportunities. While there has been some erosion of personal freedoms and various systems are fucked (patent system, copyright, social security, etc.) I keep reading similar problems in other countries. England is going big brother on its people, France and Germany has a screwed over society in term of work, Eastern Europe is just a cluster fuck.
At worst I'll make my money and wait till the shit is flying at the fan and then leave, the joy of having dual citizenship.
What's with the fixation on the English speakers? Is it not quite obvious (and let alone respectful) to learn the language of the country of your residence? English is not mandatory everywhere around the world and besides, where there are enough speakers of the local language, people often do not bother to learn others. Enough people to talk to, you know.
I started frequenting in Hungary in 1998. I was blindly hoping people would speak English there. Well, it was quite an arrogant hope, granted, and not too many did. It has indeed changed recently and many Hungarian people under the age of 40 speak English on a palatable level. What's also changed is that I started learning Hungarian and believe me you, it is SO MUCH easier to be part of the "own" people. See, in a room full of locals, you'll just not be participating in the conversation. You'll always be an outsider. I am slowly getting "in" and it's cosier there.
Now, off to learn Latvian. That would make my sixth language that I can order beer in.
Actually, the amount of wealth relative to others is what determines your freedom. Poverty is generally measured, not by how little you have, but by how much less you have than average.
It's no good having low taxes and a moderate salary, if everyone else has low taxes and a moderate salary. That way, you just get lots of people working, and spending selfishly to compete with each other. In a more socialist system, by contrast, higher taxes and moderate salaries means that everyone is working for each other, contributing to a community. They still have the same average spending power, which means that no one is "poorer" for their lack of resources. But they're happy, and together, they've built something: a society, where people feel wanted and protected and cared for, so that they don't feel the need to sleep with guns in the drawer, or shoot their classmates.
Most of what you say is true, but none of it really addresses my post. I'm well aware that socialism provides better average economic circumstances in return for less economic freedom. That is really the whole point of socialism, because it stems from a philosophy that tips the valuation scale towards socioeconomic safety as opposed to socioeconomic freedom.
My point was that many Americans do not value wealth so much as they place much more value on socioeconomic freedom as opposed to socioeconomic safety than the ggp and apparently you do. It's true that there are higher rates of violent crimes in many areas on the US (not where I grew up, even though it was a very poor area where everyone owned guns (all hunters)), but it's also true that, if I so choose, I can exercise far greater control over my socioeconomic standing than someone from a more socialist country.
Muppet, so far as I have been taught in history lessons America was colonised by people from Europe who were seeking a better life for themselves in "The New World". They sailed over there and set up a small colony which then exploited the local environment to send back profitable goods to their backers in Europe.
I think it's fair to say that these colonies mixed far more with themselves than they did with the native population and would have seemed very insular to any native on lookers.
Time passes and the colonies grow in size annexing more and more land which was once the property of the native people.
As somebody from Vienna, Austria, I must say that your observations astonished me.
hands-off governement in Austria? This has probably to do with sloppy/pragmatic enforcement of laws in comparison to Germany. We do have many laws, but are not crazy enough to actually implement them.
Cleanliness? We don't think of ourselves that way, since we are not as obsessed with cleanliness as the Germans are.
There are many god reasons to move to another country: climate, women, food, jobs, etc.
It is however not a good idea to move to a country because you are feed up with the politics of your own. People are feed up with their governements and politicians, because of the many bad experiences they had. Since they had mostly exciting and good memories from vacations and business trips to outher countries, they can get the wrong impression that everything is better everywhere else.
But some actually do move for that reason. There are Germans who come to Austria, because they hate german politics. Some Austrians move to Greece, because they hate ours and so on. These kinds of expatriates then continue to obsess with their native country and never stop badmouthing it.
I call bullshit. Poverty is not "generally measured, not by how little you have, but by how much less you have than average." Poverty is the inability to sustain a way of life.
What my neighbor makes has no bearing on how free I am. We use the same tax schedule but there are boatloads of folks in the U.S. who make more than me but who manage it poorly. Thus, they pay more to the common weal, may have more in the bank, but are constrained about what they can do in terms of family trips/home improvements.
You sound like a socialist in terms of everyone being on a level playing field and no one being '"poorer" for their lack of resources. But they're happy...' Christ, you sound like a Communist.
People are happy when they have political and economic self determination - regardless of how much they earn or who their President is.
I hated Clinton and I'm not enamored of Bush, but I'm not going anywhere because I get a say. My ancestors did not have that luxury.
True story: My great-grandfather went back to Italy that he left when he was 16. He was in his 80's. He was supposed to be their two weeks. They were so excited to show him their new toilet. First one the family ever had. He left after two days. All his kids, including my grandmom, glamorized Italy (and I know it's got some great stuff and having studied Latin, I know the deep heritage) but not everyone has it great and no place is all it's cracked up to be.
Finally, as for keeping guns in drawers - the primary reason for this right in the US is to kill government types who overstep their bounds. It's less about neighbors and hunting and more about preventing idiocy in the ruling class. The risk, of course, is that unsupervised children are going to harm themselves or others which is on the adults who facilitated their gun acquisition.
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Do you really pay lower taxes? By the time you add up federal, social security, unemployment, state and local taxes you are probably paying close to 50% if not more. Add to that things like health insurance, tolls, and thousands of fees that you pay for services that other countries provide for free and you may actually be worse off.
Oh I forgot to add the extra weeks of paid vacation to that mix too.
evil is as evil does
You can exercise greater control over your socioeconomic standing? Honestly? (no, really, I want to know). It seems to me that, if people have less taxes to pay, then people who don't value their social security or health cover will work for less, because they don't factor those things into their living expenses. As such, the average person is probably paid an effectively lower wage. Almost by definition, add-ons like health care would seem to be expensive "extras" to most workers. So... with an average (mode, not mean) salary, how much can you HONESTLY change your lifestyle? Are you saying that people can lift themselves up, into better neighbourhoods and lifestyles, just by giving up their healthcare for a while? I doubt it. Even if they could, I'm not sure that's a fair way to judge, when some people may have illnesses that require healthcare, and those individuals should not be dismissed, but rather treated as equals in every way.
Well I currently live in Germany, I have lived on 4 different continents so I can say with some experience that this magical utopia of which I hear doesn't exist. Possibly due to a lack of actually ever having traveled or learned another language, when I was last in America I used to hear a lot of liberals talking about leaving the country as though the rest of the world was a bastian of free thought, moderation and reason. Guess what, you'll make some hefty compramises anywhere you live. Germany for example has some of the worst customer service and burocracy on earth. On the other hand it has good health care and the people are ver straight forward (yes I came here for that world famous German charm). My advise to everyone would be take some time and see the world, every country has at least a few good ideas.
Don't mess with the bunny, outsideworld.org
Yeah, and that's wrong. That is a totally corrupted perception of freedom.
If you ride a bike to work, live in a small house, feed your family and are happy, and I drive one of my BMWs to work, live in a big house, feed my family and am happy, does that make you less free that me?
Only if you tie your happiness to materialism. Ironically, leftists seem to claim that capitalists are only concerned about money, while when it comes to defining relative freedom, the only valid measure is monetary wealth.
What if you have a wife that loves you, and I don't? Doesn't that make us un-equal, and you more free than me? What if I'm a idiot with no friends, and you are a great guy with bunches?
Happyness comes form so many other factors than money, and I said that, me, the (economic-)freedom loving, high-tax hating capitalist.
I live in Denmark, with one of the most ridiculously high taxation rates in the world, so I'm not just talking from theory, this is everyday life for me.
In my family there is a guy, an academic, whom today is unhappy with his work, because he over the years declined career advances because the extra responsibilities would in no way be compensated by the exra money earned in 60+% top tax bracket. No, he is not exceedingly rich for being in the top taxbracket, about halft of everybody with a fulltime job is in it.
Cue violins. This is bullshit. That is how Marx imagined it on paper, but it never happened in real life. A recent study in Denmark showed that the average citizen is not working for the common good, but has become a spoiled welfare junkie, always expecting more and better from the government, a vicious circle..
I don't have a problem paying taxes (I'm not an anarchist), but I do have a problem with the government spending my taxes to keep 1/5 of the workforce out of the labormarket.
Canada doesn't hate the states.
There is a habit of saying "at least we're not like the states" but in fact in many regards we have the same bad habits as they have [e.g. polution, right wing movements, etc]. I think if Canadians hated the americans so much we wouldn't be visiting them so much.
That said, I wouldn't mind a big influx of Americans to Canada. Two words: "Melting Pot".
Canada prides itself on the pluralism and "mixed salad" style of immigration. You know what that gives you? Places like Toronto. Where none of the residents share any common values and the quality of life takes a sharp nose dive. I lived there for a while and honestly it's like you moved to another country. I'm all for respecting other cultures, but this is Canada, not a gathering place for everyone and their brother who want to change the land from under me.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Having been all over the world in each direction, my family and I have adapted well to the European lifestyle, and if you were to come to our home, you'd see we adopted the best of everything -
* Daily exercise (a good portion of Europe values daily exercise)
* Lunch is our main meal (taken from the French)
* Red Wine with Lunch and / or dinner
* Use of the Sauna & hot tub several times per week
* Lack of bathing suit when we swim
What we discovered in our travels, and through our friendship with many Europeans, is that our lives were filled with so much stress that when we did it the European way, the stress level really went WAY down. Europeans are relaxed about simple nudity whereas Americans are so hung up about it. Europeans take time and enjoy their food (as does a large portion of the rest of the world) and Europeans have long discovered the health benefits of the sauna several times per week.
Now...that doesn't answer the original question, so I'll answer it this way. If I was moving to Europe to work, I'd probably go to Austria, Germany or France. If I was going to retire, I'd go to Croatia. Since it is MUCH harder for an American to move to Europe than for a European to move to the US...I'll probably be here until I can get my company to transfer me.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
When we "said we were sorry" (see parent), we didn't know just how sorry we would become.
And sorrier still if you fat techie douchebags don't get up and vote two weeks from now.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I thought a melting pot in this sense was when cultures mixed. The white Europeans who invaded America killed and opressed the locals and imported slaves to do their work, there wasn't much in the way of cultural exchange. The US may be culturally diverse now, but that's a recent thing. For most of its history the US was entirely dominated by white people; there wasn't a whole lot of mixing going on unless you count plantation owners raping their slaves.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
I'm not so sure you're correct. The average federal income tax rate is, indeed, around 12%, though for working professionals it is likely closer to 14-16%, and for executives (those making 200k or more per year) it is around 25% (check the tax returns of politicians...they bounce between 21% and 26%, depending on their deductions). What isn't mentioned is that there's a 15% tax for social security and medicare. If you're a wage slave, you only see half of it, but your employer is paying the other half, and that affects your salary. Health care and other benefits do too. If you lose 30% of your "income" to taxes and benefits before the first line on your paycheck, is it really part of your taxes/salary?
Anyway, I'm not giving up on the US. It's filled with idiots, and there are "better" social support systems elsewhere, but if you're willing to take responsibility for your own future, it's the place to be. I plan on never seeing a dime from Social Security, so I invest for my retirement. I pay for my own healthcare, so I get to choose what level of care I get. I don't think the general human population can handle being on their own, or perhaps it's simply that having large social nets to fall back on makes standing by yourself seem too hard.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
What's with the fixation on the English speakers? Is it not quite obvious (and let alone respectful) to learn the language of the country of your residence?
I am curious...what is your take on illegal Mexicans coming into the US and not learning English? What do you think about US schools teaching kids who don't speak English in Spanish (as they do in CA)?
I'm hoping you will say, they should learn English....but, this being slashdot, I'm not holding my breath.
-john
Slashdot: you'll not find a more wretched collection of villainy and disreputable types...
You can exercise greater control over your socioeconomic standing? Honestly? (no, really, I want to know).
Yes. Most of America's millionaires are first-generation rich.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
Brazilians dont hate America, neither americans.
We just think the average ones are a little stupid and paranoid.
But if you're willing to leave USA, you're far batter the average one! Congratulations!
Non-correlation does not necessarily disprove causality, but it is a strong argument. (Stronger than correlation implying causality.) For numerous examples, consider the book "Why Things Bite Back". Here's a hypothetical: assume that helmets save lives. Specifically, if you're in an accident the helmet will "cause" you to live 90% of the time. Also assume that otherwise you live 0% of the time. (These numbers are completely made up, so just accept them for the sake of this example.) Now, also assume that people only wear a helmet when they're driving on certain roads, and that these roads have a 50% chance of resulting in an accident. Other roads have a 5% chance of resulting in an accident. So, in this purely made up example, every time you drive you have a 5% chance of death when you wear a helmet, and a 5% chance of death when you don't wear a helmet. No correlation, even on the assumption of causation.
Now, I want to repeat that non-correlation is a strong argument against causation. It just doesn't disprove it.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
What ever problems there are in Darfur - they are not religious. In fact, the problems are to do with nomadic tribes taking their livestock onto lands which are owned by non-nomadic farming tribes. The conflict has been going on for generations - with both sides claiming right to the land. Both sides are Muslim so there it has nothing to do with religion or religious freedom. The situation is also greatly exagerated by the West for political purpose (mainly oil, gold and uranium which are all present in Darfur). I am not saying there is not a problem - just that living here and knowing many people from Darfur - the problem isn't the one portrayed in the West and is defintely nothing to do with religion as you claim.
In fact, if you visit Sudan you will see there are many churches with a large Christian popuplation. There is also generally repect amongst the Muslim and Christian communities - especially in Khartoum. There are a number of Christians working in our company and many have attested their peaceful co-existance with Muslims to me.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10);'
Why should the dutch have 50% africans / arabs in their country? It wasnt like that in the past, why now?
Sucks not to have stayed home in the first place, huh?
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
I have been told by Muslims that as a Muslim, one of your fundamental beliefs is that killing infidels is condoned. I'm sorry, but I simply can't agree with any religion whose basic beliefs include condoning the killing others for their non-belief. As a Christian, this is purely unholy, ungodly thinking. Christians teach to love and pray for those who do not believe, not to kill them.
Oh, and don't lump me in with the "Crusaders" bunch, because as an Independent Baptist, I draw my church lineage from original, New Testament, apostolic churches who were persecuted and martyred, not from the corrupted Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches.
You can't possibly be serious. I live in Texas. There is NO state tax, ALL related federal withdrawals amount to 19% out of every paycheck, tolls are fairly cheap AND can be avoided most of the time.
As far as health insurance, unless you live in Scandinavia, free health coverage by definition cannot be better than the one you pay for. Besides, in the US there's a flexible system of payment for health - employer matching, etc. You can trust me on the superiority of "bought" social services over the "provided free" ones - as an immigrant from Eastern Europe, I should know.
I spent a considerable amount of time in Europe and I would gladly pay 15% more tax than I do now to have all the services and care the government provides. I don't know about Eastern Europe, but I do know a bit about Belgium and the Netherlands.
Even the most conservative of Americans stand by a common definition. When the economy can't provide services, Government MUST. This seems to fall on deaf ears of the modern conservatives.
BTW the quality of health care in the US in not even in the top 10 in the world.. Go look it up. We have horrible infant mortality rates and many other things because of people NOT having ANY access to health care.
There also is NO flexible system of health - employer matching available in the US. Hillary Clinton proposed one in 1993, but before the public even took time to read the system, the Republicans had it discredited on false arguments. Incidentally, her system was very close to the Beligum health care system that actually is a 'flexible system of payment for health that is truly employer matching' and works quite well.
I can understand your love of America, as there are some really good things, the whole melting pot of people and ideas, etc. But in social terms there are many things in America that are on the level of 3rd word countries, and Health Care is one of them, not only in terms of accessiblility, but in terms in the quality of medicine.
I can't fathom where you get off with this assessment, so I have to assume you're not very well-travelled and you base your entire opinion on what you see on CNN. I think it's quite asinine, not to mention insulting to Europeans, to assume that every non-American is incapable of recognizing that politicians don't always lead as expected or represent the will of the vast majority. Do you think their politicians have a 100% approval rating?
I have yet to visit a European country where the people weren't open and inviting, even after learning I was an American. In fact, most Europeans are quite the opposite of what you described. When we lived in Italy, most of the locals were excited to talk about everything (With French and Spanish being so popular in US schools, I think Italians are especially excited and supportive when we attempt their language). When my father visited relatives in Bavaria and mentioned to a local that he was born in a nearby, small town, he couldn't have paid for drinks that night if he wanted to. A few years ago, my brother spent a week in Norway, skiing, drinking, and hanging out with complete strangers. A co-worker went on several, recent trips to Germany, Austria, France, and Switzerland. The only political conversation she had was with a couple Canadians who were only asking if her nationality had been an issue. Obviously, it isn't.
I think even the Middle East assessment isn't completely fair. Ask some of the US soldiers and they'll tell you a large portion of the people are happy to have them, even if they won't yell that fact from a street corner. At the same time, I have friends in Jordan who have told us that it's really not a good time to visit, so I'll take them at their word.
I spent a few years working in Sweden recently and enjoyed every minute of it.
However the future is grim I can tell you, I used to look forward to it but bitter experience has taught me that its rubbish.
Here in the UK every year the state demands more of you, especially money. Its not just money they want, they want you to fill in a form for everything you used to be able to do without interference. They want you to eat particular things, they want you to give up your sports, they stop you from smoking, they want you to carry an id card, they charge you for parking outside your house, they give you a criminal record if you put the wrong thing in a recycling bin, They use speed cameras as a source of revenue and don't spend any money on making the roads safer. they have building planning committees that tell you what is tasteful and make you pay for it. All the roads have lower speed limits to reduce the death statistics, none of the hazards that cause the crashes have been fixed. Every road has roundabouts on it, all the roundabouts now have traffic lights. Gasoline taxation is the highest in Europe but theres no tax break for fuel efficient diesel engines. I didn't mind being afraid of my teachers either, at least stealing sweets was the worst thing that the yobs in my school would do, rather than todays arson, gun crime, knifing and happy slapping. The lodger I took on so I could buy food when I was unemployed (and you don't get any state benefits until you have sold all your assets) quit his teaching job because it was too stressful and now lives comfortably on state benefits with apparently no interest in working ever again.
Sweden wasn't much better mind you, I realized that it wasn't for me when my girlfriend explained that you had to get permission from the state for the names you wanted to use if you had children.
I prefer the past myself when I was free to live my own life free of busybodies and people wasting my money - I could have spent the money on something useful like a decent pension for example.
I like a decent society with libraries sports halls etc, but the slobs in power today want to charge extra to collect the rubbish - which I had always thought was the primary reason for their existence. I do hope that the soul sucking irritation and misery they have dealt other people will be their fate to endure in hell.
Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
"1) Where would you live, if not in America"
In any of the more free countries. Canada, Switzerland, New Zealand, Netherlands, etc...
and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
I'm sorry, but that's the dumbest question evah. Friends? Family? The notion that we still live in a country with the greatest "potential" to do the most good and would like to help in that endeavor? The very idea of people leaving in frustration is quite sad, especially in a country where the collective ideas from a wide range of perspectives is what should be the avenue for change (in our pseudo "democracy"), which this country needs. Maybe it's a sign of complete apathy due to special interest groups with the most money (corporations, etc...) gain the most influence, or maybe it's the want of a xenophobic state. Both are worth leaving, but we should just attempt to change it.
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
As an American living in Canada, this listing of tax rates is still not an apples to apples comparison. For example the US and Canada top rates:
Canada 46.4%
United States 42.7%
for less that 4%, I get free healthcare in Canada.
And don't forget, for all the American's who do want to leave the US, there are still US taxes to pay (unless you renounce one's US citizenship) as the US taxes its citizens regardless of where they live (which in the end just increases one's tax burden).
So this is what it has come to, has it?
You quit.
That's it?
It's over?
You're going to let your country expire because you're too lazy to get up off your asses and take it back? The US is (or was) the perfect example of a country. You were oppressed by some ruling class that wanted to tax you with representing you, take away your rights, and treat you like the lousy commoners you are. Instead of leaving to go to other countries, your ancestors said, "Hey, that's not right. We can do a better job." You overthrew the government and made the biggest, roughest, smartest country that the world has ever known. You invented electric lights, developed flight, split the atom, and you walked on the fucking moon. You showed the world, "This is what we are capable of as human beings when we work together. Man and woman, rich and poor, white and black, side by side."
Yeah, you've had some rough times. A few dickheads have metagamed and bent the rules towards their own sociopathic ends. It's hard to stage a revolt and take back your country when there are laws preventing you from doing so.
But you know what? There were laws against revolting from England, too. I'm sure that your founding fathers would have been hanged (lethal injection not being around at the time) or sent to The Tower (Gitmo not being around at the time either). Yeah, you might die. You might have to go to war. You've done that before - twice, and internally! - so that the side of freedom would prevail.
I am not an American. I think that for the most part, you're a bunch of arrogant assholes. But you know what? You deserve to be arrogant. A large part of the hostility you get from foreigners is jealousy. Yes, jealousy. You're a young country. You're less than 300 years old. How does that make a 3000 year old country look when you completely surpass their technology, human rights, and standard of living? Yeah, they'd look stupid for just sitting around in the desert when they could have been using the tools that were just lying around. You are the most powerful nation in the history of the planet. There is nothing in this universe that you cannot do. All you require is the will to do it.
If you leave, if you give up, that jealousy will turn to hatred - hatred that you threw out one of the best things that's happened to the world. And you are. Yeah, sometimes the US is a belligerent force. You've made some mistakes - and we all know what they are. But when there are earthquakes, the US is there. When there is starvation, the US is there. When there are floods, tsunamis, or hurricanes the US is there. Sometimes you go to the wrong places or have misguided or corrupt leaders. For the most part, you are a force for good. At least, you try to be.
We all make mistakes. Mistakes can be forgiven.
Don't give up.
If you don't like what's happening to your country, then don't quit it. Fight it. Fight to keep your country safe and secure. The only threat to your country comes from within.
Be strong. Stay and fight.
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ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
See here's the problem: You seem to want a country that enforces YOUR viewpoint on everyone. When you say you are interested in a country that has Shari'a Law, you seem to mean that you want it as you understand and would choose to practise it. That's understandable, but the problem is that barring you running the show, you aren't going to find a place that everyone agrees with your views. I'm not an Islamic scholar and I can't claim to understand all the intricate differences but even my cursory level of research has revealed some major differences in opinion as to what Shari'a Law ought to encompass and how it ought to be enforced.
So, if you want to live your life according to the beliefs you have, the best bet for that is a nation that is tolerant of all beliefs. While they won't force others to conform to what you believe is right, they won't tend for force you to conform to what they think is right.
There's really no paradox here. If you go to a country like Iran that's run by Ayatollah, well you get THEIR version of Islam which might not mesh with your own. You also tend to run in to the whole "All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely," thing. If you go to a country like this US that's very free you are going to see all kinds of people doing all kinds of things you don't like, but they aren't going to tell you that you have to join in for the most part.
Then why the FUCK do so many Muslims kill Jews and Christians in the name if Allah? I have yet to hear mainstream Muslim leaders come out and condemn the acts of the "fringe". Sorry to say it, but until then, I'll have to view ALL Muslims as the maniacal killers that they are.
We could use another wave of American left-winger immigrants. Stephen Harper got elected, ffs.
Bite the hand.
But the problem is, in the socialist countries of Europe, they don't still have the same average spending power. Quite the opposite, the average salary is higher in the U.S. and the difference has grown steadily over the past 25 years.
For example, in the late 1970s the German average salary was rapidly approaching U.S. levels; but now, the average U.S. salary is ~35% higher and the gap continuously widens.
In fact, the U.S. economy grows about 2%/capita/year faster than the economies of W. Europe. At that rate, in ~25 years the average income in the U.S. will be double that of W. Europe. At that point, the European countries will be unable to provide their poorest members with a lifestyle anywhere near equivalent to the poorest Americans.
It's not clear that people in socialist countries are happier on average.
In fact, it's not clear that the socialist interventions of European economies have benefitted even the lowest strata of those societies. The minimum wage may be higher than in the U.S., but the chances of employment are much lower (chronic unemployment among the poor is extremely high in W. Europe). Health care may be free, but that is accompanied by long lines and denial of health care to people who aren't imminently dying (at least in the UK and Canada). People may have job protection, but nevertheless they feel only slightly more secure in their jobs than in the U.S. (according to surveys) and much less certain of finding another job should they lose their current one. There may be less wealth inequality, but that has been accomplished primarily by reducing high wages, rather than raising low ones. Higher education may be free, but neverhteless, higher education is far more common in the U.S. than in Europe.
It appears that the socialist interventions have accomplished very little, other than to reduce the growth rate by a few percentage points, increase unemployment significantly, and reduce the salaries of top wage earners. The reduction in salary for top wage earners may reduce the sense of envy and of relative deprivation, but it does not increase anyone's well-being absolutely.
...All of that said, I will grant that the transportation infrastructure is superior in Europe, which clearly is a function of government spending. And I will also grant that Europeans work fewer hours per week and take 2 more weeks of vacation per year, which accounts for part of the salary reduction compared to Americans.
On the other hand, Americans don't feel the need to light on fire 100 cars on an average night in their capital city, out of protest over poor treatment.
Probably gun ownership is more dependent on cultural factors than economic ones. The right to own a gun is guaranteed by the U.S. constitution, which is a document that is almost considered divinely inspired by Americans.
In fact, there are a few rural towns in the U.S. which require gun ownership. In towns like those, guns are often given to children as gifts (although not out of economic protest).
Well, the flip side is that it's a minority government. Really, that's the people saying "you know what, all you parties suck", and in the end, that's probably true.
Frankly, I think this is the best government we've had in a long time... so paralyzed, they don't have the opportunity to screw anything up! And anything they *do* manage to pass must be built on consensus, meaning more Canadians end up represented.
Sure, that means they also can't do anything controversial (eg, decriminalize marijuana), but I still rather that than a solid liberal or conservative majority, capable of passing anything they like.