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Munich Migrating To Linux
Rockgod writes with a progress report on the open sourcing of the city of Munich's administration. From the article: "The capital of Bavaria plans to complete its current migration of more than 80 percent of its desktop systems by 2008 and says that the first users of open software in the city's administration are pleased with the initial results. On Tuesday, Munich's mayor Christine Strobel said at the Systems trade fair that 'up to now, we are very happy about the results' of the migration currently underway. 'I am not a computer geek, but I must admit that it was easy to switch to the new software,' she reported. By the end of the year, some 200 workstations... will be running on a special LiMux client. If everything runs according to schedule, most of the approximately 14,000 PCs will be migrated to open source in the next two years."
now the poor souls miss out on all that upcoming Vista goodness.
How long until some of our more major cities follow this approach?
Is it?
mt
Officer workers don't care what their system has as long as it can run (a) solitare and (b) popcap games.
Particularly government workers.
They'll never be able to read MSFT Word documents with embedded VOIP!
Sincerely,
Some MSFT spokesperson's reason why ODF is bad. (I can't find the reference)
With so many distributions out there, how does a government decide upon which one to deploy?
Free Beer!
wacky bavarians! good for them.
next thing you some one over there's going to try and put chocolate in peanut butter!
First off, they have to state what their requirements are. Just as with any other project.
Then they look at what is out there and how closely it matches those requirements and how much time/money would be needed to fill in the gaps. Munich decided to go with a Debian base with KDE and OpenOffice.org.
One of Munich's requirements seems to have been to become "independent of monopolists like Microsoft." In this, Debian's social contract would have been a major plus.
Over the next few years as we see more governments organizations (and some schools) moving to desktop Linux solutions, I think we'll see a corresponding upswing in home use. Maybe massive citywide conversions like Munich's will be the catalyst that the desktop Linux market needs to gain traction. For the everyday user, if they use Linux at work, they'll probably want to use Linux at home ... assuming they can get a distro that's easy enough to install and maintain.
I'm sure it's been discussed, but I think the risk of losing home users is the real impetus behind Microsoft basically giving away software to schools, and offering STEEP discounts to governments.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
This is a growing trend in countries outside the United States. A lot of governments in Europe and Asia seem to be a lot more open to change. In the United States, the land of corporate dominance, Linux takes a backseat on Desktops for government offices and commercial companies to Windows, not because it's Linux, because it's not-Windows.
In a world of acronyms, the words are the real victims.
"I am not a computer geek, but I must admit that it was easy to switch to the new software."
It's lines like these that give Linux more promise and hopefully brings out the "If they can switch, so can we" line of thinking among others.
Conversely, I'm sure Microsoft HATES lines like these.
Respect the laws of physics, for the laws of physics have no respect for you.
But the problem with home use is NOT about being easy to "install and maintain".
Home users tend to stick with whatever was pre-installed. Once you have a city using Linux, there is a financial incentive for OEM's to build boxes with 100% Linux friendly hardware and a nice recovery CD with all the Linux drivers on it. After all, a city buys a lot of computers and parts over the years.
But that's just the base platform. That still doesn't address the apps (games) that the home users will want to run. So the market will
I'm on 100% Ubuntu Edgy Eft and it handles everything that the average home user would do with the exception of games and certain IE-only websites.
From here, regarding Chicago:
Given that they're migrating their Solaris server boxes rather than Windows desktop workstations (as seems to be happening in Munich), I'm not sure if it's quite the same thing.
I can't believe how wrong they got the client name! ...LiMux?!
How about Munix? Doesn't it sound a lot better?
Why is it taking too long? Isn't this information about 2 or 3 years old? I thought they had completed the migration.
The thrust of this rather positive FA seems to be that user acceptance has been good, and the delays were caused by such things as legal concerns and complex negotiations with project partners. The indications are that a massive migration to desktop Linux is perfectly feasible. I think Wilhelm Hoegner's view that this project, by itself, will not cause an avalanche of further conversions will prove correct. That said, a few projects like this can dramatically change perceptions leading to major change over time.
Rockgod writes with a progress report on the open sourcing of the city of Munich's administration.
Cool, I always wanted to change the city of Munich's administration. Does the mayor come with full source code?
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
They have migrated less than 200 work stations. Can we wait till the project actually approaches completion before deciding upon its success
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
I can now become a UNIX-using eunuch from Munich.
One of Munich's requirements seems to have been to become "independent of monopolists like Microsoft."
The actual requirement was to avoid vendor lock-in, for which the free distribution of Linux is very useful. Red Hat and Novell don't have to be monopolists to present the same danger of exorbitant support fees and lack of choice.
Controlling complexity is the essence of computer programming. -Brian Kernigan
Except Germans call their city München and not Munich.
Oh, and there is no 'k'-sound in the proper german pronounciation.
Munich, Bavarian setting
And the city don't know that the city is getting
The creme de la creme of the chess world in a
Show with everything but Yul Brynner
Time flies -- doesn't seem a minute
Since the Tirolean spa had the chess boys in it
All change -- don't you know that when you
Play at this level there's no ordinary venue
It's Iceland -- or the Philippines -- or Hastings -- or --
or this place!
[COMPANY]
One night in Munich and the world's your oyster
The bars are MUC and the pearls are free
You'll find a god in every golden cloister
And if you're lucky then the god's a he
I can feel an angel sliding into me
[THE AMERICAN]
One town's very like another
When your head's down over your pieces, brother
[COMPANY]
It's a drag, it's a bore, it's really such a pity
To be looking at the board, not looking at the city
[THE AMERICAN]
Whaddya mean? Ya seen one crowded, clean, Bavarian town --
[COMPANY]
Beer, boys, cool, sweet
Some are set up in the Somerset Maugham suite
[THE AMERICAN]
Bayern! You're talking to a tourist
Whose every move's among the purest
I get my kicks above the waistline, sunshine
[COMPANY]
One night in Munich makes a hard man humble
Not much between despair and ecstasy
One night in Munich and the tough guys tumble
Can't be too careful with your company
I can feel the devil walking next to me
[THE AMERICAN]
Ben is gonna be the witness
To the ultimate test of cerebral fitness
This grips me more than would a
Icy cold Isar or reclining Ratzi
And thank God I'm only watching the game -- controlling it --
I don't see you guys rating
The kind of mate I'm contemplating
I'd let you watch, I would invite you
But the queens I fuck would not excite you
So you better go back to your bars, beer gardens, your nudie beaches --
[COMPANY]
One night in Munich and the world's your oyster
The bars are MUC and the pearls ain't free
You'll find a god in every golden cloister
A little flesh, a little history
I can feel an angel sliding into me
One night in Munich makes a hard man humble
Not much between despair and ecstasy
One night in Munich and the tough guys tumble
Can't be too careful with your company
I can feel the devil walking next to me
------------
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It is better for Munich to move to Linux than
Linux to move to Munich.
The truth is an offense, but not a sin.------R. N. Marley
..is how well they managed to port some of the custom built applications. switching from word/excel to openoffice is not a big step, but some of these specialized pieces of software for government purposes (so far with a Win95 look and feel) were the tipping point in the success of a migration like that.
congrats to the munich mayor!
Vista search is nowhere near as effective as beagle.
.NET difference will disappear by 3 quarter 2007. So at max a few months of pain.
Vista graphics are bad in compared to kde4. Yet that is not the most advanced desktop for linux.
Project Looking Glass vs Vista Glass. Complete loss. Project Looking Glass is a true 3d desktop. Vista Glass requires the same processor power and ram yet does not give the graphical effects.
So what is Vista offering that Linux is not offering better. Old windows application compatibly that is it.
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
Making it even harder to get a place at weekends without a prior reservation... :-(
...but ...does Netcraft confirm it?
As a proud Bavarian, I am glad that Linux is finally getting the acceptance it deserves. My school, for example, uses Gentoo for its servers (Although it is maintained by some wannabe-geeks that mostly have no real clue about this stuff)
Now if only broadband would become more common in Bavaria, so that I could get a goddamn broadband connection and start using linux as a primary operating system instead of a dual-boot option that is never touched...
400 million PCs sold each year. Don't ask me where they all go. 14,200 running Linux, in Munich (low-tech uber-ville, not a Frankfurt for sure), "maybe a few years out" (they said that a few years ago already!) and this grabs yet another /. headline. How about something really spooky, like yet another firefox vuln. Oh, wait. Covered. OK. Back to Munich.
We did! We'll call it whatever we please, and you'll thank us, as you should, every waking moment, that you aren't in some insane asylum awaiting the death chamber. Lest you forget, the yanks saved your asses. Yup, we gave you David Hasselhof. Don't forget it!
That's the best joke I have heard on /. in a long time!
Great Intellect...
Munich is the Capitol of Bavaria, Germany. Bavaria is the high tech capitol of Germany and the richest state in Germany. They have always been ahead of the curve. It is no wonder that they are migrating to Linux and adopting open source software where it makes sense. With Munich being home of some of the largest high tech companies in the world, it would make sense for the government of Munich to adopt similar policies. I for one, praise Munich and it's government for thinking out of the box. The licensing fees they will save on Windows can certainly be spent better elsewhere.
Yahma
ProxyStorm - A Free, Anonymous apache based proxy service, for security minded individuals.
In my brother's surgery we've been on Linux ever since and the system runs smoothly with 16 diskless fat clients (http://132.230.4.73/trac/dxs). That being said, I'm kind of clueless when it comes to Windows administration. At my workplace however, I had to "take over" system administration of a seriously broken W2K setup. One W2K pro license and one Office 2003 license for 10 PCs. No server license although the "server" (no PDC, just a workgroup config) runs W2K server. I told my boss over and over again, that if someone digruntled about the company would run to the police or the BSA, he'd be in big trouble. This is simply being ignored. They'll tell me that it'd be too hard to switch to Openoffice because it's "too different". They won't let me buy a couple of Office and W2K licenses on ebay for maybe 1500 in order to save their arse. A Linux setup is completely out of question.
...)
The fact is, people don't have a clue, and never will - if I'd setup a system with a properly configured Samba-server, LDAP, Kerberos and imap, they'd still complain and blame me if the slightest thing broke (i.e. they had to learn a couple of new things). So I basically gave up and don't care any more if they lose data or get fucked by the prosecutor.
If people are willing to listen to you, or respect your technical expertise (our Linux system) it's relatively easy going. If they don't, don't waste your time. Let them have a very bad awakening one day (after all, you tried to explain
Who won the war? you did, if you are American (or french, or Russian, or British...) Thanks for that. Who wrote the constitution? you did not. you gave your ok maybe, but you did not write it.
Idha khatabahum lijahiluna qalu salaman
I'm sorry that i have to correct some misconceptions here. Obviously Munich is not Bavaria, quite to the contrary. Munich is a long-time social-democratic (somewhat left, conservative) run city while Bavaria is run for about forever by the christian-socialist party (very right, conservative). Then they have not "always been ahead of the curve", actually, Bavaria was one of the most backward and poor states of Germany up to the 1980s, one of the major money-receivers from the nationwide "Länderfinanzausgleich" -- that's a program to transfer money from the economically stronger states of Germany to the weaker ones -- and only recently started to pay into this pot. Guess who's aggressivly lobbying the abolishment of this program now?
Bavaria managed to turn itself around towards a more high-tech stance and cudos to them for doing that but this turnaround is limited to a few cities, such as Munich or Nuremburg. The rest is still pretty much tourist country and agriculture dependent.
That doesn't devaluate the GNU/Linux adoption but it should be clear that this is not happening because Bavaria or Munich are especially progressive. They just know very well where their interests are lying and i wish more city or state governments would get this. Whatever...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwabisch_Hall
It seemed worth commenting on in the article, also.
We saved All their asses. And wrote the german constitution you still use today. DDR doesn't apply (should have given it to the SU - been a lot better off than today). Anyway, you may think it was not written by the U.S., but better that way, yes - !? Now that was a way to run a war. Not like today, where to the victors don't come the spoils. What is the point, then?
"They have migrated less than 200 work stations. Can we wait till the project actually approaches completion before deciding upon its success", ffs
"By the end of the year, some 200 workstations close to Lord Mayor Christian Ude and a number of nearby organizational units will be running on a special LiMux client."
"The base client mainly runs on the Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 distribution and uses Desktop KDE 3.5 and OpenOffice 2."
'Furthermore, the City Council aims to use Linux to become politically "independent of monopolists like Microsoft."'
"The largest share of that budget -- 38 percent -- is set aside for training courses, but apparently these courses do not have to be as intensive as initially feared."
"After a decision was made in 2003 to migrate to Linux, a number of obstacles had to be overcome over the past three years, causing months of delays. Two years ago, the administration temporarily mothballed the project so it could clear up software patent issues,"
Full steam ahead for Linux in Munich
was ffs (Score:-5, negativity)
davecb5620@gmail.com
WW2 was won by the allies largely because of suicidal German strategy, not American might.
Germany took on too much and lost too many in Russia. Had Germany's eastern front been secure (by not attacking Russia in the first place), there was no way the allies could have landed in western Europe.
Russia was key in the allied victory. So was the USA, but USA cannot claim sole credit the way you are doing.
Maybe if you say USA saved the European allies.. they can say USA was *made* from western Europeans anyway. USA of WW2 = British, German, French, Italian, Irish and Spanish migrants, no?
...than cost-cutting is, in my opinion, cost retaining. Even if it costs were the same overall, F/OSS would be attractive to municipalities because they could find a local company(ies) to customize an operating system based on their chosen distro of Linux. Having your Software budget go off to America is kinda like if your entire police force were foreigners, and took their salaries home to spend them. And I agree with GP that home users would think Macintosh system 6 was the best operating system in the world if it were pre-installed on their machines.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
This fits pretty well into the conclusion of http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth. If you've got the time, please read the article.
:)
Personally I were delighted to discover http://www.system76.com/ and is looking forward for a Swedish reseller.
Münchix!
(Seriously, it's got munch, an umlaut and chix in there.. what more could the casual American observer want?)
Well, I've not visited, although it appears to be a perfectly pleasant place to visit, so I think I must leave any other matters to others.
But I'm pleased to have caused mirth.
I'm talking about the constitution of FRG. Wanna see the list of original authors? ckeck here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Teilnehmer_ des_Verfassungskonvents_auf_Herrenchiemsee
To say that 'you' wrote it is historically wrong. Period.
Idha khatabahum lijahiluna qalu salaman
Large cities and governments use hundreds or even thousands of Linux servers. The thing that is holding Linux desktops back is domain authentication and single sign-on processes. Making Windows and Linux desktops co-exist using a central LDAP server is not difficult, but there is precious little information on the web on how exactly to do that. Here is the only sensible guide that I have found so far that explains it: http://aeronetworks.ca/LinuxActiveDirectory.html
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
As a corporate worker bee with a reasonably techy company I can tell you that taking two years to migrate 15K desktops either suggest an inept IT organization or poor migration/management tools for their Linux distribution. The company I work for five years ago migrated more than 20K desktops running Windows 98 and Windows 2000 to Windows XP in about three months including internal trials to test applications etc.
that'll be easy if a big company has just a big number of workstation PCs. as in nearly all things related to governments IT landscape, things tend to get
;)
complex
and there is a lot of old cruft to be dealt with (ie, old mainframe stuff that still has to be used bla bla).
maybe us germans also have to engineer way too much while at work as well
right so you are saying that your company made a minor upgrade on the NT line of windows and threw out the 9x line of windows (presumablly if you were running both then 9x and NT lines you already had most of your critical apps working on 2K). Some minor testing for breakages needed but as you say ultimately no big deal.
compare that to a migration from windows+office+IE to linux+openoffice+firefox where you have to
1: find every macro heavy excel spreadsheet that is serving some vital function and get that functionality reimplemented in a way that doesn't depend on VBScript macros.
2: ditto for access databases
3: make sure every website (internal or external) your employees need to use is compatible with firefox. This may involve negotiating with other companies.
4: test every windows app you wan't to keep under wine and if it fails either fix it, get someone else to fix it or replace it. This may involve negotiating with other companies.
5: come up with an acceptable document exchange policy with anyone you exchange documents with (is openoffices word import/export good enough? do you wan't to use pdf? do you plan to convince them to install openoffice too?)
this can all take some time.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Most likely they migrated to Windows 2000 versions of most of those Windows 98 apps... there's a reason Microsoft bends over backwards to provide backward compatibility for developers. Moving from FooApp v.whatever to FooApp v.(whatever + 6) is probably easier than moving from FooApp to similarly-functional BarApp. In moving from Word 98 to Word 2003, the users just need 80 hours of training because some menu items moved from one drop-down menu to another. Between Word 2003 to OpenOffice, some functionality is under menu items with different names, so you have to kill the old users and train new ones from scratch.
Actually just free speech...