Slashdot Mirror
Sun To Choose GPL For Open-Sourcing Java
An anonymous reader writes, "Sun is about to announce its plans for open-sourcing Java SE and ME, according to CRN — and they're going to use the GPL, not their own CDDL or another less-restrictive license."
great! i'll believe it when it happens, though...
"A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
Another thing Microsoft can't own.
Most of the stuff on
Now that the dirty hippies have access to the code - it is theirs to destroy much like the numerous number of projects they already have.
First POST!
fp
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification
... Mailbox disabled for this recipient
Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:
morlana@jcarrinc.com
Technical details of permanent failure:
PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 550 5.2.1
----- Original message -----
Received: by 10.78.160.2 with SMTP id i2mr9180570hue.1162955498520;
Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:11:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.78.128.8 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:11:38 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID:
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 22:11:38 -0500
From: "Get the facts!"
To: "Ctibor Sheaffer"
Subject: Re: new 671
In-Reply-To:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_20955_3843314.1162955498247"
References:
------=_Part_20955_3843314.1162955498247
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
On 11/7/06, Ctibor Sheaffer wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Approved PHxxARMACYhttp://www.sadefuntionkdetinjdas.com
>
----- Message truncated -----
Our plan is working -- GET THE FACTS!
Is the reference on everything *Java*, when pundits talk about Sun and its impending change of the Java license...or is it only what we Joe Users download in order to play games and read real time stock chart information which is the Java Runtime Environment (JRE)? A slashdotter seeks clarification. Thanks.
I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
I need to find my socks.. It feels like the ground all of a sudden got cold.
Almost as if hell itself has frozen over.
Hmmm... Java and KDE4?
QT, another propriatory software product with GPL release.. And one that is aiming for commercial use in embedded devices.
QT and Java SE for KDE?
Qtopia and Java ME for your next cell phone?!
Seems like a marriage made in heaven to me.
Is that a typo? "and they're going to use the GPL, not their own CDDL or another *less*-restrictive license."
I mean, I know some people have a mad on against the GPL, but it ain't what you'd call restrictive. The only thing it does is mandate that all derivitve works also have to be GPLed.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
I'm shocked! I don't like Java much, but this is great! I think Java on GNU/Linux will really take off now and take the lead on .NET. Just wonderful news :)
I'll believe this when I see it.
Hopefully the release of the Standard edition code under a GPL license will incent more developers to make the platform better. J2EE is great, but are there that many people who still write Java desktop apps or web Java applets? Even the better Java apps appear to be ridiculously slow and cumbersome, particularly under Windows (but even on Linux boxes).
On the other hand, is this Sun's way of wiping their hands clean of everything besides their only Java moneymaker (J2EE)? They must realize that desktop Java has seen its day, and this might be a way to save some development resources while they continue to restructure in light of recurring market share losses.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
The thing is that we're not talking about Java "the Platform" here. We're talking Java the "Reference Implementations". Basically, anything derived from Sun Java will need to be GPL, which will keep the GPL crowd happy. It fills a niche that currently has no viable contenders.
When you look at the other Java implementations, you have the Apache-licensed Harmony, and commercial implementations from IBM and BEA.
Java can only be helped by this because it removes one of the major objections Linux backers have against using Java.
itsatrap!
This won't be embedded in a lot of things because of that. It seems like LGPL makes more sense for this, since Java is often embedded in other apps. Firefox isn't GPL. Can they mix and match without changing the license? Maybe, maybe not; LGPL would have made the question unambiguous.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
I don't really trust Sun to do what they are saying they will. I have an ominous feeling about this, as if I were walking into an ambush of sorts. Does anyone have any suggestions on what tag I should use for this story?
Now we can clean up some of the garbage that's in the jdk. I've been developing Java for a few years now. I was really interested in Java 6, so I downloaded the source from dev.java.net. I was shocked at how hacked together some of the classes are. Specifically I was interested in the new "standard" ORM classes in java.sql. The code was error prone, inefficient (for Java geeks, it had repetitive reflection calls all over the place) and just plain bad design. After writing my own implementation of most of the new java.sql classes for my own use (and using the supposedly new standard java.sql.DataSet interface) they apparently pulled all the new java.sql classes from Java 6. Hopefully they get a better community process to go along with their new license.
It would seem that the GPL was chosen so as to try to dissuade those who might want to fork the source code. While commercial, closed-source forks are out of the question now, it's also unlikely that we will see a separate, open source fork.
Prominent GPL'ed projects have rarely been forked. One major case was that of GCC (forked into EGCS), but that was a rather severe situation. The development of the FSF's GCC branch had stagnated to a horrible extent before the fork was made. This likely won't be the case with Java, since Sun will likely update it on a contining basis.
Had they chosen a far less restrictive license, such as the BSD or MIT license, we likely would have seen several prominent forks. As we can see from FreeBSD and Dragonfly BSD, and NetBSD and OpenBSD, the BSD license promotes forking. The same is true for the MIT license, as shown by the X.org and XFree86 split.
A forked version of Java would likely have been the most beneficial thing to have happened. Java needs a branch that has the cruft removed, both from the VM and from the class library. A new class library is needed, taking full advantage of generics and the other Java 1.5 features. The VM needs some major upgrades, notably in the area of garbage collection, memory usage reductions, and speed improvements. The backwards compatibility requirements currently forced on Sun seem to have prevented this from happening.
If they use a different licence there will be people that will bitch about it without ever reading it and then hold a grudge for years afterwards.
"Sun Set" Haha. Sunset. That's funny. (ftfa)
Hey guys, nice going with the tags, there's still an article that isn't marked as tagged "itsatrap" yet!
1 7214
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/07/16
For those who have already started complaining about the license in this thread - why don't you spend a few years writing your own Java clone, and giving it away under BSD or whatever?
It's great that Sun is finally doing this, but can you imagine where Java could be if Sun would've done this a LONG time ago? With the rising popularity of .NET, it seems a little late.
Next fight: which version?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Looking closely at this bunch, they'll probably cut something quite valuable out from Java as done with Opensolaris and sun4m, where they cut that one just because they couldnt run dtrace. Never mention that it's been adapted to other architectures, or that it could be simply cut out. KCF is another matter. Never mind that only their competitor carried support for machines of longer timeframes and only recently dropped support, leaving something usable for those machines.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
OK, first remark - I want to see this as an official press release on Sun's website, with a link to the code. Then I'll be confident it will really happen.
Second remark - I think the GPL is a good choice for this. Consider what Sun might gain from open source Java under any license:
1) Excellent integration with Linux, *BSD, and any other platform out there they haven't integrated into fully yet (except maybe Windows). They would get all the work done for free, too - distributions would be chomping at the bit to work long and hard on making everything work Just So.
2) Much better realization of cross platform "write once, run everywhere" goals. Well integrated Java everywhere can only help this.
3) Possible improvements as people get a chance to fix anything that's been annoying them for the last several years.
All very logical reasons to open source, IMHO - Java is already freely downloadable. Sun owns the Java trademark, so they have no fear of forks which mean anything in terms of threatening Java mind share - Java has to be one of the most publicly recognizable programming language brand names in the world. Sun will always provide the "only" Java, whatever else out there might run Java programs.
Now, what does GPL do for them, that other licenses might not?
1) Credibility - rather than inventing Yet Another License, making things simple using already established (and I think functional for this purpose) licenses.
2) Prevents commercial forking. Whatever open source Java becomes, it is unlikely that someone would try and compete commercially against Sun when Sun has the commercial code base and original developers. Any work any commercial developer did in competition (that they want to distribute anyway) would have to be offered free to the world under GPL, and even if Sun can't use it directly the ideas alone would be enough to allow them to keep up and maybe get there first in some cases.
3) Allows maximal code sharing in the open world. GPL has its own momentum, as a sort of "logical end point" - free except for the ability to become non-free. That would seem to make a lot of sense to me for Java, particularly since I would expect (like OpenOffice) that most of the best code would come out of Sun and be copyright Sun. Sun can put out what it wants, and still license commercially if they so choose.
Downsides for Sun primarily seem to be the "radical" image associated with GPL in some circles (yes that's a disadvantage if you want to look like a reasonable, sane business to some PHBs) and the inability to combine developments based on GPL Java back into their commercial Java without discussing it with the author. But since this very restriction is also a reassurance to the community in some ways, it might not be all bad.
Anyway, I will watch developments with interest and look forward hopefully to the day when Java on Gentoo can be well integrated and smooth.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
The next C++ standard will include support for garbage collection. For many, automated memory management is the only benefit that Java offers over C++. Once C++ offers such functionality, it is likely that we will see a transition from Java back to C++. C++ is similar enough in syntax and semantics that the transition will be quite painless for most competent Java developers who do not know C++.
Many open source C++ libraries these days are cross-platform to a degree that Java will likely never achieve. Most open source XML parsing libraries written in C++ support platforms as varied as Linux, OpenVMS, Windows, Mac OS X, and BeOS. Java does not offer such widespread coverage.
When it comes to desktop development, Java is about to get creamed. Once libraries like wxWidgets, which allows for cross-platform GUI development, support the garbage collection of C++, Swing will be history.
Best of all, C++ offers extreme performance benefits over Java in most cases. This is important for a wide range of applications. Desktop Java applications have traditionally been found to be extremely slow and non-responsive. C++ applications, on the other hand, have performed far better.
Sun knows that C++ is coming back. They know that many parts of Java will be, in effect, obsoleted overnight. It's in their best interest to divest themselves of Java as much as is possible, while still reaping what benefits they can from it before its growth really starts to stagnate.
Great news.
Major contributions would not come to Java if it wasn't GPL. IBM doesn't want anybody (read Microsoft) to take any VM technology and put it into .Net. The GPL prevents this from happening so IBM can contribute to Java. Same thing happened with Linux. Much of the stuff that companies contributed to the kernel would not have happened if it was BSD licensed, but MS could use it commercially.
IBM Java is going away.
But can they? Do they? How much of their income is highly Java-related?
...are we scared yet?
You cannot GPL Java, if you do, then ***ALL*** the business applications
that are created using Java will have to ***PAY*** a license fee to use it.
PERIOD.
That's BAD news..... REALLY BAD NEWS!
Think ***Trolltech Qt***.
The LGPL license would be much better.
I wonder what the angle will be - maybe they'll GPL the class libraries without a linking exception and claim you can't use GPL-incompatible software with the GPL version of Java? Or maybe they'll limit it to GPL2 to attempt to drive a wedge in the community? Or not open the class libraries at all? If it's really an honest 'GPL2 or greater' of the runtime and class libraries without any tricks, it will be a really amazing step by Sun, and to me, make up for their funding of the SCO attack. I can't imagine this happening though, so I'll have to wait for the actual announcement. If it does happen, the first order of business will likely be to port Beagle and F-Spot to Java to avoid Novell's implied claim that Mono is patent encumbered and Microsoft will be suing.
This is great news! I hope people realize just how much Sun is doing for Free Software in particular by taking these steps. It will soon be possible to run a complete enterprise-class Java development or production environment on a Free Software stack on a Free Software system. No more fiddling with GNU Classpath and GCJ.
The complete package is almost - if not - on the same level as projects like GCC and GNOME.
Not to mention, it is very exciting to consider what this new truly democratic "Java Community Process" will produce in advances in JVM technology and the Java language itself.
Sun was making some missteps... for instance how badly EJB sucked up to 2.1.
Now we have POJO's implementing enterprise beans in 3.0. We have strong standardized support for security and cryptography (ala JCA/JCE, JSSE, JAAS). JDBC is a snap. We have excellent documentation and books available from J2ME to J2EE....
Between Britney Spears being available again and the Repubs losing House and Senate... I'd say it was a good day.
Their big concern is forking, right?
They have no qualms of people seeing the code, submitting code, compiling on their own, etc? They want to port to all systems, etc.
There seems to be a huge void here. We need a license that covers this scenario and specifically prevents unauthorized forks. Change the code on your own machine. Submit upstream if you wish, but you can't distribute unofficial builds, or fork the code.
If such a license existed, it might be considerably more likely to see more open-source codecs, open sourced Flash players, plugins, video drivers, etc.
Sun has said forever that the code is basically out there already, and they had no qualm making it open-sourced over than the fork issue, and the only reason for this lengthy delay was coming up with an appropriate license. So why just settle on the GPL?
I'm confused.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
For me, this is a really good thing. I use Java quite a bit for my own hobby programs - which I release under the GPL if I release them at all (most of them are just once-off utilities or quick hacks to test out an idea for an algorithm and wouldn't be much use to anybody else) so this isn't going to really cause me any grief at all. What I'm curious about though is that there were some questions about GPLed programs written in java, because of some ambiguities in what constituted linking, a derivative work, etc. due to the nature of the way Java goes about compiling byte code. I'm not sure if this was ever resolved, but if not, couldn't we be facing the same sort of situation wherein Java applications would be considered a derivative work of the GPLed JVM and therefore have to be released under the GPL?
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
If its the class libraries (i.e. java.*) this is VERY good news.
If its just the virtual machine and not the libraries, its less usefull (since the libraries would remain non free)
Isn't it much more likely that the difference in performance between a J2SE app and J2ME app has to do with the differences between the J2SE platform and the J2ME platform, rather than the "mindset" of developers.
How about these authors stop with the inane articles about what might happen when they honestly have no clue.
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
holy fucking shit
My thoughts exactly
I am d3matt
I was in an I-hate-Sun mood again this week. Ah, well, now I'm feelin' the GPL love - props to the boys.
What happens to GCJ and Fedora now?, I wonder.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Imagine Java not as a plugin, but as part of your browser.
Better; part of your browser that _cannot_ be integrated into non-GPL browsers. They still have to run it as a plugin.
This has mind-boggling implications in terms of patents that apply only to browser plugins (ahem---Eolas).
I've always wished for a Firefox with Java + Flash integrated (does that even make sense?). I don't feel that plugins give as good of an experience as native browser controls.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Java (the VM), class libraries, etc. will still have the same distribution restrictions they always have (effectively none). But implementations of the VM, and changes to it, are now free for anyone to make, and integrate into projects that are GPL compatible.
A static VM obtained from Sun will not require source distribution when included in your product, since Sun maintains that. So anyone using Java now won't notice the difference.
It's open source, and there's no way it can be used AS THE BASIS of a 3rd-party product that isn't open source without Sun's permission, which is how they want it.
Who loses? If you want sole modification/closed distribution rights, you can get a source license directly from Sun, just like you do right now.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
... kill off any related library development?
I mean, doesn't that just cover sun.* and java.*?
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
... then this will be one of a few good moves Sun has done in many years. Hope it's true.
...the MPL and CDDL are more restrictive than GPL, and those two licenses are the ones I would have immediately associated with Sun.
Apache, BSD, Artistic, and others don't give Sun enough control to ward off competitors trying to pull a fast one. At least GPL makes the core relevant to GPL-related projects (which is a large universe, currently devoid of official Java).
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
A no-forking license would not meet the Open Source Definition, so many developers would shun it. Forking provides an important check against mismanagement; some prominent projects have only survived due to forks (GCC comes to mind).
Anyone one remembers this: http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/04/30/HNsolari sgpl_1.html
I wonder what impact a pure GPL licensed Java will have on commercial software. Doesn't it mean that any Java software linked against the Java SDK library will also need to be GPL compatible? A LGPL license for Java make much more sense to me.
I think C# is where it's at now. The only thing java is good for is webapps, which that's a huge market. Java application development for desktop applications is another matter. Only apps built around it years ago still use it, but would be better off dumping it for C#. C# can *co-exist with your old C/C++ codebase. You can also easily extend your language support. Not to mention ease of porting applications.
Looks like Matlab is screwed.
Off topic I know, but why is every single article today tagged itsatrap and/or itsnotatrap?
I'm holding out for the port to GLslang. Take that stack-based VM and turn it into a 64-register-sliding-window monster that can multithread directly on your GPU. Hooah!
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Another example of a very, very large fork was GnuEmacs/XEmacs.
It is not unprecidented, if someone had good reason to do so. However I don't think it would happen because pressure enough to seek a fork of that size would at least try to work through the JCP java standards body to add what they were seeking. And many things people would like to do with Jaqva can be done as libraries, fewer things need to modify the language itself or the bytecode structure.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Because the GPL mentions certain limitations on linking, specifically, anything linked with GPL code is considered a derivative work of the code and is therefore subject to the copy restrictions placed on the original work (ie that derivative works must be placed under the GPL to be distributed), with basically everything written in Java linking to its runtime, anything written in it is automatically considered a derivative work and would therefore also be subject to the GPL, destroying virtually all commercial value in Java development.
The LGPL would be far more appropriate.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Sun already said that they won't be releasing some parts that they don't own, so people shouldn't act surprised when the source is incomplete.
This means that Java would be able to be included in linux distos by default, rather then requiring the user to set them up.
Klingon Software is not released, it escapes, inflicting terrible damage onto the enemy as it does
... you're honestly complaining sun dropped support for a piece of hardware that's what? 15 years old now? Darn them and trying to innovate by not wasting time on old hardware! You act as if they didn't remove it from Solaris10 before they even released opensolaris...
Actually, J2ME is a primary Java moneymaker for Sun, also. I work for an enterprise IT weekly (InfoWorld) and my colleagues and I always end up rolling our eyes whenever we are invited for a big press chat at Sun only to be regaled for half an hour with stories about running games on Java-powered cell phones. We could care less about games, but it's obviously a big issue for Sun and something they want their shareholders to know about.
Breakfast served all day!
The fifth paragraph reads, "Santa Clara, Calif.-based Sun declined to comment on its open-source Java plans and licensing choice" That doesn't sound like a definitive answer to me. The ONLY thing that is actually said is, "...using a GPL license is very much *on* the table..." (q.v. http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/busy_week1 ). This does *not* commit sun to *anything*.
Seems a little cold around here here to be April 1 already....
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
OK, I'm not a programmer for money, although I do program in the course of my job. I'm a sysadmin. I frequently have to deal with Java(tm)(c)(r)(we0wnz0rj00)(yhbhhand) in the form of its virtual machines (various flavours) and programs written in it. I see how the platform performs in real life. In addition, this is nothing new. I have been watching Java since '95, and working with it since '96.
... maybe we can't. Obviously Bill Joy disagrees.
... no. I have yet to see a JVM that could handle 10000 concurrent threads. If you want real parallelism, look elsewhere.
...)
... and even so, in every single java implementation I have seen, the most robust enterprise platforms can suddenly stop ... and pause ... and wait ... for ... minutes ... while ... garbage ... collecting. And people keep using this piece of crap for enterprise programming. I'm breathtaken. Just breathtaken.
And the problem is not how open it is. The problem is that it sucks.
Yes, heresy, Java sucks. Explanation follows.
First: the syntax is pretty darned terrible. I know, it's not as bad as APL (a language in which I've actually written, and which I rather enjoyed), but Java wastes a lot of time and space dealing with various cases of scoping in objects, and for heaven's sake, can't we all agree that curly brackets are a waste of space?
Second: So we close our eyes to the syntax. It's an OO language. OOP was an over-eager development on modular programming, which has yet to deliver on any one of its astonishing '80's-era claims of efficiency. Has it become more efficient in practice? Sure. So has any other methodology since then. It's conceptual overhead at best, and I have yet to see a single convincing reason for binding code and data to each other. One operates on the other... oh well. The OOP borg will crush or assimilate me, I'm sure.
Third: Fine, no problem in syntax nor semantic structure. I have yet to see a JVM that was not a disgusting memory hog. Java rivals Oracle for chewing up huge servers and picking its teeth with the bones. And what do you get for that? Hundreds of thousands of threads active?
Fourth: Write once! Run Anywhere! (Some restrictions may apply, warranty subject to conditions, see store for details, some assembly required, no batteries included
Fifth: OK, so you have unlimited RAM, you don't care about OOP snake oil nor syntactic nonsense, you are running on one consistent platform
It's a slow, bitchy piece of shit. No wonder hardware makers love it. Just like Oracle. Drag up your beefiest machine, and after Java and Oracle, it's toast. Buy ten more!
My only hope is that GPLing this steaming pile will result in a memory-tight, CPU-polite, on-the-fly-GCing racehorse. It did the same for Gnome and KDE, right?
Right, fellas?
Fellas?
Seems to me that it was just reciting simple facts, basically paraphrasing what the COPYING file says.
hopefully.
website makers don't even bother to put non-flash options up any more.
p.s. saa-weeet.
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
Like a strip club operator offering free beer so the exiting patrons will stay and watch his remaining 300 pound stripper with halitosis...
I'm sure the three Java developers left will rejoice.
And one of those is a Microsoft Mole anyway.
On the Sun's Java website there is an interview with James Gosling. A bit of an interesting read.
However, a GPL license would require those making changes to the core Java platform to freely release their code.
:) ).
"However" ? I truly think they know what they are doing here, and choosing GPL is the best possible choice IMHO. They wouldn't want anyone to take it up and make commecrcial closed forks, and they will require contributions and changes to be made public. This is great and I think it will greatly benefit us all. Another good move from Sun (fyi, no affiliation here, sadly
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
the.problem.with.java.is.that.I.got.bored.with.the .long.syntax()
even when it's has a GPL licence I won't be using it through choice.
Eh... I've been following this Java opensourcing with some interest, but I've not seen definite announcement yet. Know what I'm reminded of? Certain Lt. Kynnysmatto in Star Wreck 4.5: Weak Performance...
"Warn the enemy that we're about to return to fire."
"Warn the enemy that we're about to activate the twinkler banks."
"Warn the enemy that we're activating the twinkler banks now."
"Sir, the shields are down to 47%."
"That is less than 50%. Very well, we are no longer warning the enemy. Return fire. All twinkler banks and light balls... feuer."
That said, I'm extremely happy that they chose GPL. If it worked for OpenOffice.org it will work for Java =)
When you develop some Java code, you inevitably rely on the Java standard libraries, and when you use "javac" (your usual choice), you inevitably *link* your program to those libraries.
Now if Java is to be GPLed in the future, does that mean, we all have to GPL our applications too, or switch Java environment? And to what would we switch, as there aren't really alternatives??
If Sun releases both the Java VM, and (more importantly) the Java class libraries under the GPL, it will be huge, because important packages will now be able to include Java functionality out of the box
Example: Distros can ship Firefox (a.k.a. Iceweasel/Firesomething/whatever) with a Java plugin. On every architecture. Running OpenBSD. And it'll be reliable, because weird OS-specific bugs will actually get fixed.
Another example: Debian et al. can start shipping OpenOffice with Java support.
If Sun plays its cards right, it will have eliminated the so-called Java trap, which can only serve to render Java more ubiquitous.
That said, I'll believe it when it happens.
http://outcampaign.org/
``Gnome/Java Qt/Java''
How about SWT?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Let's wait and see until they release something. Given Sun's history, this may well be the "genuine GPL(*)" (*) with Sun enhancements. And I don't think anybody can say yet with certainty that the GPL is the right license.
Keep in mind that Sun's Solaris release was done in such a way as to be incompatible with Linux (of course, open source Solaris also has turned out to be largely irrelevant).
If Sun Java is GPL'ed does that mean all the applications that need jre to run would need to be open-sourced in their entirety or is it just the parts of the program that need java? I am using Maple 10 on gentoo here. I am pretty sure the gui part and possibly other parts are written in java.
As someone who tested the JDK and negotiated long and hard with Sun over open-source license for J2EE, I submit that the code is worth little without the test suite, and the code would be relatively easy to write with the test suite.
So, if Sun keeps the test suite under a non-open-source license, this would at best mean some patches for annoying bugs. Only if the test suite goes, too, could we get real alternatives.
But these could be huge in the the mobile space, where mobile Linux + mobile Java could be rapidly developed for lots of devices. not LAMP but LAVA. Yum!
His name is Dark Helmet.
http://outcampaign.org/
If this happens, all the major distros (like ubuntu etc) would bundle JVM, JRE .. J* with the iso. Just when I was hoping distros would get snappier every release, things like these come in the way! :( :(
IMO, java is a better server side language. Please don't use it for desktop applications!
Sent from my desktop computer
Sun is already shipping in particular XML stuff licensed under the Apache License 2.0, which the FSF believes is incompatible with the GPL. Considering that Jakarta is such an important pool of code, what are they doing about license compatibility?
The problem with Java on Linux isn't just the license, it's technological: poor platform integration, slow GUI, etc. Java applications feel foreign and violate HIGs on Linux and on other platforms. And neither Sun nor SWT have been able to fix that.
Java will continue to be what it is--a cross-platform tool for some market niche. The window of opportunity where it could take over the world has passed.
Thinking about it, this is probably pretty much useless. GNU Classpath and other open source Java libraries have a special exception to the GPL, see here. That exception is there because without it, the only software that man people could run with an open source Java implementation would be GPL'ed software. Realistically, that would make an open source Java implementation largely useless, since so much Java code out there is not under the GPL.
If Sun's source code is released under the plain GPL without that exception, then it is largely useless. Sun's JVM and libraries could be reused as part of FOSS implementations, but FOSS Java already has better implementations anyway. The big parts of Sun Java that would have been useful are Swing, but those can't be incorporated into Classpath if Sun doesn't have the exception.
My guess is that Sun has deliberately chosen not to include the exception, in an effort to appear open but deliver little of real value.
This move comes just in time. With Microsoft being in bed with Novell, it makes me just a little uneasy about the future of mono. Plus, it will be nice to have Java included in free distros such as Fedora.
Paid Q&A/Research
Nah, never happen.
Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
I agree with you to a certain extent that the LGPL is more appropriate than the GPL, but only in terms of the runtime components of Java (particularly the libraries). The GPL is definitely the best choice for the compiler and all the other tools.
As long as the runtime libraries are LGPL'd, it would still be possible to develop non-GPL Java applications.
So release it already? I never liked java so far, but maybe you'll find a blake ross or something.
rhY
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
I had to comment on the '!itsnotatrap'-tag. Not it's not a trap? Please, please, don't use double negation! Why don't you just write itsatrap. That would be just so much less confusing. :-)
I demand the Cone of Silence!
What kind of Slashdot user are you? Next you will be saying that GNU/Linux is NOT the best thing since sliced bread, and CLI's are NOT the wave of the future once we have converted the unwashed masses to our geekdom. Hand over your non-x86 architectures!
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
I have a question, what happens when some developer decides to extend one class or implement some new functionality using one or more of the existing classes in the API, will he be under obligation to release this as GPL'd code?
Ubuntu, for example, downloads the restricted modules whether you like it or not--the aim is to make installation "just work." They do not download 3d-accelerated binary drivers, but instead modules that are necessary for operation of certain machines.
That's why gNewSense exists.
I don't know the exact details, but yeah they had some kind of deal, which MS went back on by "embracing and extending" their implementation of Java, meaning that applets written for the MS VM wouldn't work in the Sun one. Sun did sue (and, after years of stalling, MS eventually agreed to remove their VM from Windows/IE), but the damage was already done.
I'd be interested to know if the OP's orginal comment would have applied to this. If I understand correctly, GPL code could never be incorporated into Windows.
you made me look! dammit dammit....
Not to mention that:
Solaris 8 dropped support for sun4c (and sun4 i guess, not sure when that was dropped)
Solaris 1 (SunOS 5.0) dropped support for m68k sun3 machines
etc...
Hardware moves on, there's not much point continuing support for modern software running on old hardware that can't be purchased anymore... Those machines which are still around, will still run the old versions of solaris they've been running for years.
And when it comes to machines still supported by opensolaris, you have the ultra-5 and ultra-2, which are dirt cheap and readily available on ebay for an absolute pittance, and will easily outperform any old sun4m boxes.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Actually, this is much more like Fark. I think they own a trademark on the "poorly photoshopped Admiral Ackbar" meme.
The article doesn't say. Will Java be GPLv2 or GPLv3?
E pluribus unum
These days the most commonly used tags (besides yes and no) are itsatrap, fud, notfud, and duh. They occur so frequently (check this out for yourself) that they are all useless for searching. Furthermore, when somebody tags something fud, some other genius usually immediately tags it notfud. Furthermore, often neither tagger seems to understand what "fud" stands for. Furthermore, you can't usually tell whether the fud tag applies to the article or the post announcing the article, which often takes an opposite point of view.
I find the entire tagging mess so annoying that it is having the effect of discouraging me from reading slashdot altogether. I wish it would go away.
C syntax is a horrible mismatch with object-oriented programming.
No matter what band-aids you apply to it.
Objective C is the least worst compromise, and it's not even a close second to fully embracing Smalltalk-like syntax.
All of the additions and modifications to the project get their own copyright enforcement, too. Copyright term in the U.S. is (life of author + 70) years or for corporations it's 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation.
A popular GPLed project may contain little or none of it original code five or ten years after its initial release. Take Linux for an example. How do you think the Linux kernel will look 70 years after Linus Torvalds is dead? Will Linux 1.0.0 sources really be useful to close-source a clone of whatever people are running by then? 1.3.5? 2.0.14? And 95 years from now, do you think IBM will be kicking itself over letting support for eight-way SMP out the door? Will the Linux kernel be relevant 70 years after Linus dies? There's a good chance he'll live another 40-60 years anyway. Maybe even longer.
Is Sun going to care that someone in 95 years can use public-domain Java v.whatever-is-current-now source code in a closed-source application? They'd be allowed to anyway, if anyone could find the source at all, because the copyright is up at that point whether it's GPLed or not.
So, in 95 years, someone can legally release today's Java as their own product. Will you care?
Imagine the kernel module that enables different java processes, of different users, to use just a single VM. This will immediately reduce the strain off servers running J2EE apps in different containers, or let me run a few instances of eclipse along with tomcat and other java software.
So when do we get to see java.ko?
See his keynote at the recent Oracle OpenWorld 2006.
- overview/keynotes.html?pageregion=ocom_hp_a_lr_3_k eynote_102406
Select his video and then forward to 16:00 min into the talk. He says "most likely the same license as Solaris"... i.e., CDDL. Not GPL.
http://www.oracle.com/openworld/attendees/program
Hmmm, Java SE and ME.... What about Java 2003 Enterprise and Java XP? Any announcement about those?
"So anyone using Java now won't notice the difference."
Not true. Firstly, if Java is GPL, it'll be possible to have it included in my preferred Linux distributions as a standard supported feature.
Secondly, if Java is GPL I can download it and use it at work, because the GPL is a standard license that has been approved by the legal team--whereas I am specifically forbidden from agreeing to Sun's current license.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
If you are currently jumping through hoops to get java to work on your platform, you'll notice, because it'll get easier. I was address an Anonymous parent comment (which you probably couldn't see) that was complaining that the GPL would somehow restrict his existing source rights/access.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
How can these people definitively say that Sun is going to GPL Java? They have no citations of anything worth believing in that article, just links where our good ol' Sun CEO is toying with the idea of maybe using the GPL.
My only complaint is JVM/Java app load times. You launch an app and you wait. A simple app has a load time comparable to starting MS Word, and starting a Java equivalent to MS Word (Eclipse, for a broad comparison of a big, comprehensive app) takes an eternity.
SUN's take on this is security. Everytime you construct an object from a class for the first time, you are invoking a class loader which does verification of the byte code.
Sometimes it isn't just application startup -- launching a JFileChooser for an initial time can sometimes take forever to come up, but then it is responsive with subsequent invocations.
But if they solved the startup time, perhaps making a JVM part of the OS startup, that would go a long way. Anyone here use Matlab in recent versions? You are using a Java Swing app, or at least for the GUI part. Matlab is the state-sponsored religion in engineering at the U, and when I demonstrate to a class bringing up an editor window in Matlab and we wait for that edit window to pop up, I tell them they are looking at Java Swing in action.
True, it is possible to write bad Swing apps (what was that example, populating a GUI widget with 10,000 entries?), but by an large I am impressed with Swing -- not as snappy as a native app, but fully comparable to a VB, wxPython, Matlab, whatever GUI. But oh those long load times.
...except that Microsoft's version of Java stripped away all cross platform code by the time Java Studio v6 shipped within two years. They put direct Windoze system calls into their Java to kill the "write once, run anywhere" threat. That's what got them sued and rightly so. Breach of contract, it was... and fscking everything up.
Most of the stuff on
A graduate of Pope High School in Marietta, Georgia, in 1998, he lives in Atlanta and claims to attend Georgia State University. Andy Zebrowitz is a co-founder of the Mirrorshades project and, in his own words, "a writer, actor, and co-founder of Dixie Flatline and the Panther Moderns, a theatre troupe specializing in gothic and fetish drama performances at nightclubs in the Atlanta area."
He frequently abuses his position as a helpdesk monkey (technical director) at a VoIP provider to harass his employer's customers by publishing their personal details on the internet and creating libelous websites about them. For this task Zebrowitz has created a posse of IRC lusers, including Yaroslav Shirokov aka Slava aka Mutatorr of Alpharetta, Georgia, and Bryan Allen aka bda aka harb, a network security administrator for Drexel University until he was fired for incompetence.
One such harassment case is that of VoIP customer and fellow Atlantan internet dipshit Steve Milano. Outraged at being treated like the information age peasant that he is, Zebrowitz posted Milano's name and helpdesk emails in his Kuro5hin diary. Unfortunately, the offending diary entries were later deleted by Kuro5hin administrators. However, the myriad websites Zebrowitz and his lackeys set up to defame Milano can be found by doing a simple Google search.
When not fighting his imaginary internet foes, Andy can be found staring at disco balls or posing with swords in parking lots.
Mr. Zebrowitz is of the Jewish persuasion.