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Novell Gets $348 Million From Microsoft
An anonymous reader writes, "Novell has published additional details about its agreements with Microsoft concerning Windows and Linux interoperability and patents. It seems the company is receiving an up-front payment of $348 million from Microsoft, for SLES subscription certificates and for patent cross-licensing. Microsoft will make an upfront payment to Novell of $240 million for SLES subscription 'certificates' that Microsoft can use, resell, or distribute over the term of the agreement. Regarding the patent cooperation agreement, Microsoft will make an up-front net payment to Novell of $108 million, and Novell will make ongoing payments totaling at least $40 million over five years to Microsoft."
Go for it, guys.
Microsoft Vader: How much is your soul?
Novell Spaceballs Skywalker: $380 million and change, and we'll throw in SuSE.
Microsoft Vader: You fool! We would have paid you 10x as much.
Rumour has it that Novell will be payed in pieces of silver.
this has anything to do with Microsoft's SCO involvement.
Someone hates these cans.
As scary as this initially sounds (Microsoft Linux anyone?), the partnership makes sense. Microsoft gains the capability to run Linux better in a virtualized environment (or vice versa), and Novell gets a ton of much needed cash. For years, it's been obvious that at some point Microsoft would have to start recognizing the fast growth of Linux as an enterprise platform, and it appears that this move is Microsoft's first step.
The only concern I have is that Microsot continues further down the path and begins to create closed source applications or kernel modules specifically to run Microsoft apps. If they can swing this, the potential for degradation of the upward Linux momentum is high. John Dvorak of PC Magazine figures that Microsoft will develop GPL work-arounds, and eventually begin releasing Linux apps.
What then? Mac servers for everyone?
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
is $348 million. How do you call it? Inflation!
Something seems fishy here.
And its not the corporate sushi bar, or koi pond.
Or that nasty intern on the fourth floor.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
IT'S A TRAP!!!
I know the joke is getting quite lame now, but I really hope MS is for real on this one. I guess they will never satisfy everyone, but I really hope they're trying.
. o O ( TwO hEaDs ArE mOrE tHaN oNe... )
i don't know anything about law but now that SCO v. IBM is winding down, and many think SCO will lose big, won't IBM and RedHat do something? I'm guessing copyright infringement was the first salvo against Linux and the next attack will be patent based. I've heard IBM has a huge software patent portfolio...wouldn't RedHat and IBM do something similar to the Microsoft/Novell deal? Unless their current involvement in the SCO lawsuit forces them to stay quiet until the case is over. If it's true that Microsoft funded part of SCO v. IBM then this does seem like their next method of attack in Microsoft's war on Linux.
No, that's so last week. The new tag is "itscrap". Thanks thelost (808451)!
Read the press release, it is not a patent deal, that would put them in violation of the GPL. Instead it is a conenant not to sue.
So if I understand correctly. Microsoft is admitting that their software violates some of Novell's patents.
However, instead of protecting themselves and their customers by doing a cross licensing deal with Novell, Microsoft is keeping themselves and their customers at risk by entering into a non binding revocable 'covenant ' instead.
I wonder how well this will sit Microsoft's shareholders knowing that this risk exists and it is not being addressed permanently when such an option exists.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
"Under the patent cooperation agreement, Novell's customers receive directly from Microsoft a covenant not to sue. Novell does not receive a patent license or covenant not to sue from Microsoft, and we have not agreed with Microsoft to any condition that would contradict the conditions of the GPL. Our agreement does not affect the freedom that Novell or anyone else in the open source community, including developers, has under the GPL and does not impose any condition that would contradict the conditions of the GPL. Therefore, the agreement is fully compliant with the GPL,"
If the answer is war, you are asking the wrong question
Bill: "I'm worried, Steve. We're losing more ground to Linux. It's on the verge of becoming a non-nerd OS."
Steve: "I've got an idea. Let's buy another version of Linux."
Bill: "Are you crazy? The SCO gambit didn't fool anybody."
Steve: "No, not like that. Instead of trying to fool a judge, we'll try to fool our customers."
Bill: "So? That's already company policy."
Steve: "Yes, but we'll release our own version. We tell the public that we're joining the Linux bandwagon, and with our marketing clout, it will soon become the dominant version on the market. Then when the public is convinced that MS-Linux IS Linux, we make gradual changes to turn it into an unusable bloated wreck. Linux will be finished!"
Bill: "No way! Remember, Steve, I used to write software. No self-respecting programmer would deliberately wreck an OS. Where are we going to get a bunch of programmers to do that?"
Steve: "We have all the guys who wrote Vista. I think they could do it."
( Steve exits )
( 10 minutes later, Steve returns, slamming the door quickly behind him. He looks like he has seen a ghost )
Bill: "So, how did it go?
Steve: ( shaking his head ) "Bad, bad, bad, bad, b-"
Bill: Get a grip! What happened?
Steve: "They won't do it...I mean they'll do it, but they want to do it well! They won't wreck it."
Bill: "You explained the plan to them?"
Steve: "Yes, very clearly. Twice. But they just started chanting. One word, over and over and over and over and over and ov-
( Bill picks up a chair, bashes Steve over the head with it. )
Steve: "Wh..? Uh..thanks...I needed that."
( Bill puts down the chair, walks to the door )
Steve: "Nooo! Please don't op-"
( Bill opens the door. From down the hall a chorus of voices can be heard. )
Voices: "-ux! Linux! Linux! Linux! Linux! Linux! Lin-"
( Bill slams the door )
Bill: "That's bad."
Steve: "It's worse. They now refuse to work on Vista any more!"
Bill: "That's ok. We aren't going to support it for very long anyway."
Steve: "So what are we going to do?"
Bill: "I think I can still make the plan work. Listen: we'll let them produce a good version of Linux. We'll make it very good for servers."
Steve: "Suse? You mean we'll take over Novell?"
Bill: "Yes. That gives us a big step up to dominate the Linux market like you suggested. But instead of trying to convice the world that Linux is junk, we'll tell them that Linux is only for servers."
Steve: "But it will migrate to the desktop! We have to kill it!"
Bill: "No, we'll let the guys downstairs make it the way they want it. Keep it for nerds. Each update will be more and more technical. Let them gradually turn it into something that only a Linux pro can use."
Steve: "We're gonna pay them to write Gentoo?"
What does Linus think of this? Time for a "bitkeeper 2.0" apology to the OSS community.
that this includes a deal to not persue much further the SCO case. While the feds may go after MS for their involvement with the shady deal with SCO, this is probably an early payoff to Novell to drop it. I just wonder if this allows Novell to go after Sun or did MS protect them as well?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I'll not get into the reasons, but just remember; "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is apt. Operating systems are no different. They are "software" too. With all the compromises and good intentions built in.
Ok, so if you want to use Windows and Linux, in the near future, it might be best to use Suse for the "Linux" side. So What?
Sounds more like a counter to "IBM+RedHat" than anything else.
So the "free" software supports the "closed, but popular Windows" software. How is that different than non-DRM mp3 files running on iPods?
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Remember when Microsoft gave Apple $3XXM, and the Mac Vs. Windows lawsuits were settled? Chances are that Microsoft is now doing the same with Novell, and Novell still owns some patents for Unix that it did not sell to SCO, and Novell was a major player in the IBM vs. SCO lawsuit. Microsoft is just trying to CYA itself, because obviously Vista infringes on some Unix/Linux patents. This is just a way of Microsoft saying to Novell, we'll give you some money to save your company, like we did to Apple, if you promise not to sue us.
I wonder if there will be a SuSE version of MS-Office, like the OSX version of MS-Office created out of the Microsoft-Apple deal?
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
... I guess now we don't like SLES. Shoddy security, I've heard.
Novell is in huge financial trouble. If you read the article, they are trying to negotiate with their major debtors to come to an agreement and continue payments. Wells Fargo and Citibank are calling two of their major loans out against Novell. Also note the rumors of layoffs, investigating other financial mishaps, and the late filings of their earnings. This is what causes many companies to start heading down the tubes. The whole Microsoft agreement is essentially Microsoft cashing in on Novell after they made some financial mistakes and need someone to bail them out of it. Just watch as Microsoft ends up having major influence in the direction of Novell. This isn't a bad thing though. It means there will still be two main players in the Linux Business market. It's Microsoft's way of also creating some feirce competition against Redhat. Not to mention Oracle has their sites on Redhat and are taking shots at them. The whole support agreement with Oracle deal is meant to take out Redhat's major market. With that and a soon to be beefed up financial stability of Novell and push for SLES, Redhat will had some hard roads to go through. It's no surprise that MS sided with Novell when they saw Oracle make their move against Redhat. Interesting times in major Linux vendors are ahead. It should be interesting to see how it all turns out.
I'll pay you now and you pay me later. Sounds like a tax scam or a quarterly "earnings" issue.
Maybe Microsoft thinks that they can gain a significant share of enterprise Linux installations with a distribution they control. Then, they will do their classic embrace and extend to use the leverage to their advantage.
Microsoft knows that no one ever got fired for buying IBM of Microsoft. IBM is pushing Linux and that doesn't help Microsoft. By providing a Microsoft-approved Linux, they can get a slice of the pie and out themselves into a position to do to Linux what they have tried to do with every other standard technology - embrace and extend it.
"The world is a construct of forceful imagination. Those who don't know walk around in the reailties of those who do"
I mean. If Microsoft talks to Linux, it is a treat to try to kill the penguin. If Linux talks to Microsoft, they're selling their soul. If it's the beginning to something good, just don't just wait and see. Otherwise, it can't be worst.
So, if I use SuSE now, should I switch? Is Novell now evil-by-contact?
I've advised all the Suse users I know and support to do the same thing, right now.
I will no longer be doing any updates to any of the Suse installations I support via Novell.
I'm actively seeking a replacement distro.
The poisoning of the well is under way, get out now while you still can.
We're all getting a little sick and tired of all the 'slashdot playwrights'. If you want to enroll in a local college course, and produce an off broadway production of "The Chair and I" that's great. That's the American Dream. This isn't the place for your dreams. Here I will step on them... like this... and that.
Please keep this in mind, and "Welcome to the world of tomorrow".
I believe they look the best "gang" out there. IBM has the hardware and RedHat ... well has a bunch of widely distributed programmers.
Somehow I like it better when I don't hear smth like "Patents and Linux" , "Microsoft and Linux" ...
Sure, IBM holds a lot of patents but it is not getting paid by Microsoft.
Finally, MS will kill you off. You think 380 million is something they'll even NOTICE? In return, lets see, they get.. your source code, YAST, AppArmor, mindshare, and info on your business.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Novell gets to scare people out of Red Hat, and Microsoft only has to compete with Novell in the future.
Sure, Novell claims that the patent issue is not an important part of the deal, but I bet they use it as a selling point.
Does this mean someones finally going to get NTFS working in linux?
Because that's the first thing I'd do if I had $348 million to get more people to use linux...
no one ever got fired for buying ... Microsoft
If, in fact, that is still true, I make it my sworn mission to set the precedent, by firing anyone under me who tries it. I can think of few greater proofs of incompetence.
you had me at #!
That's something I've seen NOTHING about from Novell since the Microsoft merger, I mean deal.
I've been wondering if the deal is intended to basically, persuade Novell that it doesn't need to be in the desktop space and to slow down the R&D in the desktop area. Perhaps MS actually got nervous when all the articles came out calling SLED10 the "Vista-killer"?
Having reviewed two desktop distros (Lin/freespire and SLED10) for publication lately and I'm working on getting FC6 running (for review? Don't know yet, I'm getting VMware running on it at this point), I'd say that if the driver issue can be dealt with (preferably in a way that doesn't benefit Novell), the next rev of almost any Linux desktop distro will be ready for the unsupported home user assuming the OS is pre-installed by the computer builder. Linux desktops are generally ready for any company that can provide in-house support, but that was true last year.
While Fedora Core has the reputation of being more difficult, one can run one script (Fedora Frog) and install practically all the hard stuff in a couple of hours, starting with multimedia. Note that of the two hours or so, you need to spend about 5 minutes around the computer. Similar scripts are available for other distros. (note: yes, Frog works in FC6, with minor glitches)
Tech Public Policy stuff
Every time I see a statement like this it pisses me off. Linux is very inter operable with every mainstream OS except Windows. And you know what, Windows isn't inter operable with any other OS that exists. Not only that but the Linux community goes to outrageous efforts to make it inter operable with other OS's (reverse engineering) while Microsoft goes to extreme efforts to ensure no OS can inter operate with Windows.
Also why is it I find Linux far simpler than Windows. You set it up and it works forever. On rare occasions that there are problems you can find a definitive solution unlike Windows where you just reboot and pray because no one including Microsoft knows what's happening with most problems.
Who is John Galt?
finally, they found a stable platform to replace those old bsd servers that have been running the backbone of hotmail since day 1... :)
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
> Microsoft knows that no one ever got fired for buying IBM [or] Microsoft.
IBM managed to get itself in a bit of a hole in the late eighties, as I recall. IBM seemed to be untouchable, and then was outmanouvered from a near monopoly position. Microsoft faces a few of the same issues: the need for upward compatibility, difficulty being able to respond quickly to pressing concerns, in MS's case, security.
Linux provides a chance to regain some of the flexibility that MS needs to maintain dominance. It may even be possible to for MS to produce a clean product which is outstandingly good. They have the capability; we just haven't seen it for a while...
In most times, most places, by most people, liars are considered contemptible. - Ursula Le Guin
I'd like just as much to see support for reiser and or ext 2.3 in windows. there might be some gpl issues integrating it into the kernel, but I don't really care about performance as much as simply making it work.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Heh. Nice troll. You really think Microsoft had to pay $380 million for Suse's source code? If that's what happened then Ron Hovsepian must be have been doubled over laughing all week.
P.S. Yes folks, both YaST and AppArmor are GPL.
Breakfast served all day!
After Oracle's Unbreakable Linux, this is second bad news for Red Hat. Novell is a company whose committment towards Open Source has always been suspect.
Indeed it is worth 10x as much. But then you have to factor in an extra compensation package for CEO, CFO, CIO, and any other C*O in the company totaling a measly $81 million dollars as a way of saying thanks for putting the Microsoft deal together.
that we will get to see a true Lindows box on COMPUSA shelves?
Novell is a member of the Open Invention Network. A patent collective that is used to defend certain open source projects (if you sue project X or used of project X for patent infringement than they sue you). Afiak OIN is the reason that mono was included in fedora, because they were able to use it to defend against Microsoft patents.
Thus if Microsoft sues someone for using one of those protected open source projects than OIN sues back.
This brings up two interesting questions. First, since Novell is a member of OIN would they be considered partial owners of these patents and thus in violation of this agreement if OIN sues MS? (I suspect not).
Second. What are the state of OIN's current patents? From the site it looks like OIN itself owns the patents (so they shouldn't lose any defensive power) but my strong suspicion is that Novell wouldn't be allowed to transfer any new patents to OIN since they could be potentially be used to sue MS (and thus in violation of this agreement).
Does anyone know more about these issues and how this agreement might affect OIN?
I stole this Sig
I wouldn't worry about MS writing bad code and introducing security holes that way. MS has some great programmers -- the company's problem with security holes is architectural. It's designed itself in to a corner it can't code its way out of. As long as Microsoft releases the code to its contributions I wouldn't worry about MS developed Linux software any more than Linux software developed by anyone else.
If Microsoft contributes binary blobs, then yeah, I'd worry about security issues, but that concern applies to anyone's blobs.
Not only must we put up with grammar nazis and spelling nazis, but now slashdot has a genre nazi?
As long as I work on the Fedora Project, Fedora will never compromise on the essential liberties of FOSS nor will it betray the community. But the price of liberty is not free, nor is it comfortable. And unfortunately, some "leaders" of our community are willing to compromise liberty for short-term convenience. I am disgusted by people like this, and by Novell's betrayal of the community today.
Novell has effectively traded Long-Term Liberty for Short-Term Safety.
Red Hat supports causes that matter like providing the original seed money for Creative Commons. Or being a key partner in the anti-software patent movement during the miraculous last-minute turnaround at the European Parliament last year. I am proud to be part of an organization that demonstrates such moral and ethical commitment.
But ultimately, Red Hat cannot change the world alone. That is why the Fedora Project exists. We want to enable the community to work together to improve FOSS at a rapid pace, in partnership with the large and consistent contributions from our engineers. We strongly believe that this is the most effective way for the entire FOSS movement to advance. Yes, we made some big mistakes in our community relationship earlier, but we are learning, and continue to improve at an ever accelerating pace.
For these reasons that I urge the FOSS community to support the Fedora Project through volunteer contributions of time and effort. Or if you lack time to contribute, please consider monetary donations toward any of the shared causes that we are fighting for.
http://wtogami.livejournal.com/11305.html
Please read more in the original version in this blog entry.
Warren Togami
Founder, Fedora Project
Software Engineer, Red Hat, Inc.
This does not have to put Novell in violation of GPL, for multiple reasons:
1)Novell owns IP that has nothing to do with Linux.
2)Even if some code is in Linux, and available under GPL, if Linux are the copyright holders of the code, then they can also release it under different lisences too.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I felt good, almost warm about working with Novell.
I'm rolling out servers all over the globe, and they were going to be running SLES. This is because it was a solidly supported platform, partnered and certified with Dell, and clearly exhibited potential as a stable, longterm Linux solution.
Novell could have done without Microsoft indefinately.. Tell them to get their own Linux.
Many of the people who were in SUSE for Novell will be parting ways.
Three cheers for Debian and it's offspring!!
Huzzah! Updates to Sarge!
Hurray! Ubuntu certified on Sun hardware!
Hip! gNewSense, Knoppix, Puppy, DSL, et al!
No company that has made a technology deal with Microsoft has come out ahead, some, like Spyglass, lost their shirt! I've been a big fan of Novell over the years, I still say that their fileservers were some of the best and most reliable ever made...but I fear for them with this deal with Microsoft. I hope they prove me wrong.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
From this page
Since the announcement of the Novell-Microsoft agreement on November 2, we have been flooded with questions from the open source community about what this deal means to the Linux, the open source community, and even what this deal means for Novell. We will use this page to answer as many of those questions as possible. Check back frequently, as we will continue to add more answers as quickly as possible.
Q1. How is this agreement compatible with Novell's obligations under Section 7 of the GPL?
Our agreement with Microsoft is focused on our customers, and does not include a patent license or covenant not to sue from Microsoft to Novell (or, for that matter, from Novell to Microsoft). Novell's customers receive a covenant not to sue directly from Microsoft. We have not agreed with Microsoft to any condition that would contradict the conditions of the GPL and we are in full compliance.
Novell's end user customers receive a covenant not to sue directly from Microsoft for their use of Novell products and services, but these activities are outside the scope of the GPL.
Many more questions are answerd there. The fact that they get some money for their service is nice. Microsoft pays for the update service from Novell. Something that wasn'r free for SLES and SLED anyway. You can still get the SLES and SLED for free.
You will need an activation code FOR THE UPDATES as was always the case. openSUSE will still be available for free
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
It couldn't possibly have anything to do that virtually every common OS besides Windows IS a *nix variant? Linux is far simpler than Windows? Yesterday, I reformatted my hard drive. I decided, after 10 years on a Microsoft operating system I would dual boot XP Pro and a generic install of Ubuntu. Reinstalled XP Pro in about 40 minutes, including time spent downloading and installing drivers. To get Ubuntu to install on my machine, I had to manually edit a config file to get the screen to display correctly, but could only do so *after* the Ubuntu installer crashed (like, duh?). I found this out after digging through Ubuntu forum posts for about an hour (there was nothing in the Wiki related to this). I like the idea of moving to open source software, but the reality is it is not as universal or simple as Windows. XP crashes for me (in the last 4 years of using it) have been rare, and when it is it is usually a memory leak from a particular application, not XP itself. So far, every machine I've installed Linux on I've had serious compatibility issues in every case. I'm not trying to install Linux on my alarm clock here, these are every day, very common PC parts. I've yet to have a smooth Linux installation. It's simply not for mom and pop yet.
Maybe he meant interoperability as in it will work with WinXP, which is a very logical argument, and 'every mainstream OS' means it works with.... Linux? :P But really, what is this 'interoperability' you speak of? What exactly does that include, networking? At our university, we have linux and win32 platforms networked and working fine together... So I'm just not sure what you speak of when you say that it's 'inter operable'...
Anyways, the Parent has a point, a very good one. I don't want to reinstall windows let alone switch to a different OS, as the amount of time I have spent catering to this particular install is quite a bit. However, on my media server, I have thought about switching over to a new OS (I have winXP right now, and it's kinda crappy to leave on 24/7). This new... er... frankenSuSE might be the answer, although I probably won't wait that long for it to come out. BUT, businesses might find it appealing, as the IT people can be like 'w00t, we use linux!' but they can go to their employer saying they have the utmost confidence it still works with their Vista workstations...
Har?
Every time I see a statement like this it pisses me off. Linux is very inter operable with every mainstream OS except Windows.
/etc/ memorized, and oh who cares because nobody needs accelerated graphics on Linux because there's no games to play anyway. If the average user (and my install was very average) needs to manually edit config files, then Linux is still failing at being simple to install and use. To your average user these are not small configuration issues, they are glaring *problems* with the software.
I don't think he meant interoperability between operating systems, but rather applications and services. Active Directory integrates seamlessly with Exchange, Group Policy, DNS, all forms of ACLs, and allows easy authentication of Windows users and computers. Exchange connects and works great with Outlook and offers a feature set not yet matched by any open source solution. MS Office applications can simply and quickly communicate and transfer information back and forth. -- The significant thing is that it all just works together.
Also why is it I find Linux far simpler than Windows. You set it up and it works forever.
I know this is Slashdot, and the same discussions are re-hashed in every article about Linux, but this kind of broad sweeping statement needs to DIE.
Linux is not simpler than Windows. You don't simply push a button and suddenly everything works. I just installed Ubuntu on my laptop and had to fight a small war to get accelerated graphics working. I had to change the wireless network stuff so it used ndiswrapper instead of whatever it was the installer wanted to use to prevent it from constantly dropping connections.
I'm tired of giving examples just to have them shot down by people who think everybody is a hardware expert, has the contents of
you just reboot and pray
Funny, but I find myself doing this very thing with Linux (what's broken? Is it GDM, Gnome, Nautilus? Did one of the services break? Which one? Ah, screw it, just reboot.)
"What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
/)
Interesting that it involves the exchange of money. This lays the ground work for MS to keep collecting after they sever the agreement with Novell. The agreement runs out in 5 years, but there is a clause in the contract which allows MS to terminate it earlier.
Either way, it tries to fool people into accepting software patents. For the short term, many projects can be moved to European servers, just like when encryption export was illegal in the US. However, in the long term, the US needs to adopt a more common sense approach to patents and revoke any involving intangibles like software, mathematical formulas, and literature. Expression of those is already protected by copyright. What we have now is a broken system which allows restricting ideas.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Whoever tagged this as teabagging wins at the Internets tonight.
Microsoft pays Novell $240 million and another $108 million for a total of $348 million. Novell pays Microsoft back $40+ million, so Microsoft is really only paying $308 million.
I have not used the mod points I got the last 4-5 times, and today when I see this very insightful comment, I don't have any to give. Good post.
I don't think he meant interoperability between operating systems, but rather applications and services. Active Directory integrates seamlessly with Exchange, Group Policy, DNS, all forms of ACLs, and allows easy authentication of Windows users and computers. Exchange connects and works great with Outlook and offers a feature set not yet matched by any open source solution. MS Office applications can simply and quickly communicate and transfer information back and forth. -- The significant thing is that it all just works together.
That's because they're all owned and marketed by Microsoft. I suppose that would be more intraoperability as opposed to interoperability.
Run any flavor Linux that is covered by the patents? Since the Software is OSS I would be covered by the Novell License right?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Slashdot: where MS has been a sinking ship since 1997!
Interviewer: So you are going to help Linux to better interoperate with windows.
S Balmers: Yes, of course... We will ensure Suse linux can run best with Microsoft Virtualisation Technology (R) on Microsoft platforms. This will also allow us to implement DRM for everyone happiness.
Interviewer: And why did you choose Novell over Red Hat for example?
S Balmers: We have already had agreements with Novell in the past when they developped their Netware directory services. So we know them already........
S Balmers: And we know we can rip off their technology like we did in the past with active directory development...... And them let them go down....
S Balmers: OOps, did I say the last sentence loud or did I just think of it?
Interviewer: You said it loud.
S Balmers: Dooh...
I gave up with the idea of an useful sig...
I google "ubuntu nvidia graphics", and this comes up: Unofficial Ubuntu 6.10 (Edgy Eft) Starter Guide.
It comes down to:
1) Add universal repositories in Synaptic package manager.
2) Type this in in the terminal:
sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx nvidia-kernel-common
sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
3) Type Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to restart your display, or reboot if you prefer.
There are guides to the first and second steps too.
If you know Debian derived distros this is, of course, as second nature as a Windows user using the control panel.
If GDM or a service crashes it will restart. If nautilus crashes you can restart it by clicking the Home folder button in the dropdown menu. At least when Nautilus crashes the taskbar doesn't go, along with IE, like it does with explorer.exe which leaves you staring at your wallpaper and hoping it'll start back up.
I don't like Linux fanboys, and I think the recent shifts away from 100% rabid anti-Windows posts are very positive. But I do think Linux is as easy to use for a newcomer as Windows, and it has communities built up around the specific distro you use which offer support for all the common problems.
It's silly to say Linux is hard to use and Windows is easy when you don't use Linux but are experienced with Windows. As far as someone who is completely inexperienced with computers goes I think would find a modern Linux distro just as easy to use as they would Windows.
Personally I find Linux and Windows just as easy to use for browsing the web etc, but when it comes to troubleshooting I find Linux much easier. This doesn't mean Windows is necessarily harder to use, I just know Linux better than Windows.
"Linux is very user friendly, it's just picky about its friends."
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
That's because you are a Linux zealot who only knows Linux interoperable OS's, mainly UNIX variants plus its enemy Windows. Just like a frog who spent his entire life at the bottom of a well, the well is the entire world as far as the frog is concerned.
Microsoft is not directly targeting Linux, but rather apps/utilities that might persuade users from switching to it. There are two things that Novell has that Microsoft would want to bury or pollute. Evolution and Xgl. Decent email/collaboration/task management software could help corporate users break away from Outlook; and Xgl makes Aeroglass effects possible on modest hardware. I have a feeling that we'll see these two projects either stagnate (from Novell's end), or newly added features might find themselves getting non GPL code in them. I suggest forking the code on both now.
Have a look here:
r ce.html
http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensou
[--- PGP key and more on http://www.root42.de ---]
as in "embrace extend [and] extinguish"... :|
$HOME is where the
-- silver_p
That's the next step right?
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
I'm glad to see Microshit Research has been spending their funding wisely - this is quite a micropayment breakthrough!
Stop buying bad hardware
"Linux is not simpler than Windows. You don't simply push a button and suddenly everything works. I just installed Ubuntu on my laptop and had to fight a small war to get accelerated graphics working. I had to change the wireless network stuff so it used ndiswrapper instead of whatever it was the installer wanted to use to prevent it from constantly dropping connections."
I spent my entire yesterday-evening fixing my neighbours computer. She complained that it was "running very slowly". It's a XP-machine, and it had antivirus installed (in fact, several of them). I removed the multitude of antivirus-software (which had expired anyway), installed new antivirus, scanned the machine, scanned it for adware and spyware, the usual stuff. And it did make it a bit better. I also noticed that she only had 256MB of RAM, which is quite little these days. Luckily I had two 512MB sticks of RAM lying around, so I installed those in her computer.
As I booted the machine, her net-connection did not work anymore. Just like that. No matter how hard I tried, it just wont go online. I even tried to put the old RAM back, just in case, but no help. It seems like the machine has mysteriously lost the HomePNA-adapter that is in the machine. I'm not really sure what to do next, maybe I should move the adapter to another slot, and hope that XP rediscovers it. Or maybe I should just erase everything, and reinstall the whole crap from scratch.
End result is that before I touched the machine, she had a computer that was so cluttered with crap that it was un-usable. What she got was a machine that is usable but wont get online. Linux might have it's problem but at least it
a) does not get filled with crap
b) does not slow down because it has three virus-scanners running in the background
c) does not mysteriously lose components that were working fine 5 minutes ago.
How about our Windows-server at work? It has a HD that is partitioned in to C and D-drives. One day it had switched the drive-letters around. Just like that. What used to be C, was now D, and vice versa. We rebooted the machine, no help. We rebooted again, no help. We rebooted to safe-mode, no help. we rebooted to recovery-console and checked few things (but didn't change anything). Then we rebooted for a fifth time, and this time everything worked. We didn't change anything, we just repeatedly rebooted the machine, and suddenly it started to work again. Where is the logic in this? And why does Windows suddenly decide to switch drive-letters around? Seriously? What the hell is going on here?
And how exactly are ANY of these things "simple"?
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Well I dunno about that but the first time I installd Ubunty 6.06 and tried to log in the taskbar will stay blank (without the icons) and only the desktop would show the icons. It just wont work even if I restarted X-window and tried again so I could not get into my computer (having removed completely XP)...
I had to install Kubuntu and work with that (but KDE stability sucks bigs ball in my experience).
Oh, and about your Nvidia instrucitons
. But I do think Linux is as easy to use for a newcomer as Windows,
HAHAHAAHHHahahahahahahaahahahahha
BTW, the guide which you linked to is quite scary:
How to install Graphics Driver (NVIDIA)
(sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx nvidia-kernel-common;sudo nvidia-glx-config enable;sudo gedit
While in the horrible crappy Windows XP you have to:
Download, click OPEN, click I AGREE, click next, next next, next... DONE
Pleeease. I like linux, in fact I am writing this from a half usable ubuntu laptop (I removed WinXP because the activation shit pissed me off for the last time, and yes my computer has a XP Proff sticker under it). But in no FUCKING WAY is Linux simpler than Windows. At least not Ubuntu which is *supposed to be* one of the simplest Linux out there. Maybe Xandros, Linspire or one of them but hey, I am a cheap bastard and wont pay for something I can get for free.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
... once it's been installed.
Installing a new package with "emerge xxx" in Gentoo is just as user-friendly as using "apt-get xxx" in Debian. The fact that the emerge command downloads source and compiles it for you before installing makes no odds at all --- it's all automatic.
The problem for Linux beginners has always been that the initial Gentoo installation was a manual process, and a rather hairy one at that. But times are a-changing, and both a LiveCD and a distro installer have been available for Gentoo for a while now.
While I can't comment on how good the installer is currently because all my Gentoo installations predate it, don't just blindly follow the "Gentoo is for Linux gurus" meme, because that is on its way to becoming old history, and was never true post-installation anyway.
Then later, you follow up with this comment:
You do realize that Joe User can't even get past step 1 above, right?
For Linux to really improve and gain more popularity with the mainstream, what first has to happen is for Linux advocates to STOP claiming that "it's easy to use!" when it isn't. Yet. It's certainly a solvable problem, but the first hurdle is to realize it's a problem to begin with. Too many Linux fanbois are too defensive when it comes to their platform, not realizing when, where, and how improvements should be made.
Don't get me wrong, Linux has made tremendous progress in the usability arena. But the worst thing you can do now is to stop and claim victory over something that isn't there.
-- jchenx
I can't get my Dell Wireless 1390 802.11b/g Mini Card to work under Ubuntu, please help!
You do realize that the first two issues are completely unrelated to the OS on it, right? The reason why it's filled with crap and multiple virus scanners on it, is likely due your novice neighbor's actions and decisions. If they were on a Mac or on some flavor of Linux, you could just as easily have the same problem there. (As for the 3rd issue, yeah that's just odd, although I wouldn't be surprised if the root cause of that was also user initiated)
The big question is that if your neighbor was on Linux, trying to do the same thing, what would have happened? In the XP case, the machine appears to be usable, but was just getting slower and slower (which can be expected, the more crap that's installed on there). What would happen on Linux though? The worst thing that could happen is that an error occurs that completely makes the machine unusable. And as you can imagine, debugging on Linux, for a "regular computer user" is likely to going to be far more complicated than anything on Windows (the "OS for dummies" so-to-speak).
I guess my point is that "weird computer shit happens" all the time. I don't care what platform you are on, someone is going to run into some inexplicable combination of hardware, software, and "user errors" (as well as plain old bugs) that causes bizarre things to happen. Obviously as a developer/software engineer, you try your best to prevent that from happening, but software is never perfect. So the question then turns into how the software fails gracefully, and lets the user recover.
I've had a number of "weird issues" on both Windows and Linux machines. Without a doubt, the Linux issues are going to be far harder to troubleshoot and debug for your average computer user, simply because the vast majority of them have no idea what a "command line" is, much less knowing what the hell "re-compiling" means. Granted, troubleshooting and help has gotten a lot better, but I find there is still too quick a drop-off from "try these different options in the UI" to "go to #XYZHelp, and ask someone for assistance".
I am by no means trying to bash Linux. But let's be honest with that platform's faults, so that the community can attempt to do a better job at addressing them.
-- jchenx
Two years ago: Free software is a virus in the industry, doesn't work well, can't guarantee quality, is hard to use and difficult to support... Now: pay 350Megadollars to a company who became successful by thinking exactly the opposite, make deals with php, xen... Microsoft has spread FUD or has been dead wrong, this is an official and inescapable conclusion. Those who followed Microsoft propaganda might have lost 2 to 5 years of promising developments in the free software world. So, are these guys more or less trustworthy than a magic 8 ball when it comes to decisions in the IT world? Because, you know, the magic 8 ball has no interest in screwing the costumers. :)
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
I've had quite the opposite experience with most of my equipment. Unlike Windows, most of what I've needed with Linux has worked out of the box with no need to install 3rd party drivers. I've installed Ubuntu on 4 desktops and 2 laptops and Debian on another 3 desktops and have had only minor issues with a couple of these systems related to networking equipment (the fault of these issues lying squarely with Broadcom for not providing drivers nor documentation for their wireless chipsets). It is really a case of YMMV, where some people (like me) have a perfect or near-perfect result and others (like you) have an extremely difficult time. However, compared to where the Linux scene was just 2 short years ago (where there was no distribution that I could get to install completely out of the box and run reliably on any equipment I tried it on), things have improved astronomically and I only see more improvement ahead.
[insert witty comment here]
>have 3 names and counting.
Saints preserve us, it's the attack of the Hall Monitors. Bill, is that you?
I think your experience is an unusually bad one. For comparison, a Windows XP disk has problems locating my SATA hard drive (one needs to insert a floppy diskette with the drivers or cook one's own WinXP cd), but any reasonably new Linux distribution does it out of the box. It certainly cuts both ways. The notable exception may be wireless support, which to me still seems like it needs some polish -- figuring out what has gone wrong when NDISWrapper doesn't work seemed rather opaque to me at the outset, but to be fair I didn't look that hard.
It couldn't possibly have anything to do that virtually every common OS besides Windows IS a *nix variant?
... which are NOT simple things.
Perhaps. There are still no effort on interoperability on Windows.
I decided, after 10 years on a Microsoft operating system I would dual boot XP Pro and a generic install of Ubuntu
Why ? So you never used Linux before (at least, not in the 10 last years), point taken.
Reinstalled XP Pro in about 40 minutes, including time spent downloading and installing drivers
Must be a pretty streamlined process then, which betrays the fact that contrary to what you claim, you reinstalled your WinXP several time already.
To get Ubuntu to install on my machine, I had to manually edit a config file to get the screen to display correctly, but could only do so *after* the Ubuntu installer crashed (like, duh?)
Which is a complete lie. If you could edit a config file, that means Ubuntu was already installed. If the installer crashed, then it means one of two things :
- You don't understand what you're doing, thought it crashed and rebooted the machine
- It really crashed, but still managed to install the OS
I found this out after digging through Ubuntu forum posts for about an hour (there was nothing in the Wiki related to this). I like the idea of moving to open source software, but the reality is it is not as universal or simple as Windows
You never showed anything to assert this. You talked about installation issues, which do not show anything about Windows being simpler.
Windows is not universal either, it works on x86 and limps on x86_64.
And then, I'm sorry to have to tell you that once you have installed your WinXP, you still need the antivirus, antispyware,
So Windows is still harder and not universal.
XP crashes for me (in the last 4 years of using it) have been rare, and when it is it is usually a memory leak from a particular application, not XP itself
A memory leak should not crash an OS. Anyway, none of this has anything to do with interoperability.
So far, every machine I've installed Linux on I've had serious compatibility issues in every case. I'm not trying to install Linux on my alarm clock here, these are every day, very common PC parts. I've yet to have a smooth Linux installation. It's simply not for mom and pop yet.
Who says you can't make a few bucks selling a free product... :-P
On a more serious note, Novell suck ball$ for doing this.
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
I don't think he meant interoperability between operating systems, but rather applications and services
/etc/ memorized, and oh who cares because nobody needs accelerated graphics on Linux because there's no games to play anyway
... then Windows is still failing at being simple to install and use.
Except that interoperability definitions is about communication "between operating systems". So your poor excuse doesn't work and just show your total lack of clue.
Active Directory integrates seamlessly with Exchange, Group Policy, DNS, all forms of ACLs, and allows easy authentication of Windows users and computers
Active Directory doesn't integrate seamlessly with DNS or all forms of ACLs, these are complete lies. All the rest come from the same vendor : MS.
And none of these are compatible with anything (except a minimum of SMTP).
So please stop this BS.
Exchange connects and works great with Outlook and offers a feature set not yet matched by any open source solution
Are you stupid or what ? Exchange and Outlook come from the same vendor !
The features you talk about are plain useless in an open environment. Mail is not Outlook - Exchange - Outlook link you know ?
I never saw any of these features reach me actually.
MS Office applications can simply and quickly communicate and transfer information back and forth. -- The significant thing is that it all just works together
What do you mean ? These kind of broad sweeping statements need to DIE.
I just installed Ubuntu on my laptop and had to fight a small war to get accelerated graphics working
Funny it's just one package installation away. You being clueless doesn't mean it isn't simpler than Windows.
I can explain to anyone how to install accelerated graphics on Ubuntu, I can't on Windows, as it's too complicated, even in the best case where you have a driver CD.
I had to change the wireless network stuff so it used ndiswrapper instead of whatever it was the installer wanted to use to prevent it from constantly dropping connections
A driver bug has nothing to do with the simplicity of the OS. At least try to find valid issues.
I guess WinXP dropping wireless connections constantly even with official drivers never made you think WinXP is complicated.
I'm tired of giving examples just to have them shot down by people who think everybody is a hardware expert, has the contents of
Good thing you're tired trolling.
If the average user (and my install was very average) needs to manually edit config files, then Linux is still failing at being simple to install and use
Average users on Windows don't install accelerated graphics, they have a hard time installing wireless too, and will call and pay for support.
If the average user needs to defragment hard drives, reinstall Windows, install antivirus, install antispyware,
Funny, but I find myself doing this very thing with Linux (what's broken? Is it GDM, Gnome, Nautilus? Did one of the services break? Which one? Ah, screw it, just reboot.)
Which is a complete lie, as on Linux, if you reboot, the problem will still be there. Reboot doesn't solve problems on Linux, as the OS is robust.
What problem do you have that makes you reboot ? You cite GDM, Gnome, Nautilus, which just sounds very suspicious (if not stupid), as GDM and Nautilus just can't happen to cause a problem at the same level (you can't have a GDM problem once you use Nautilus, which means you have logged in already).
For Novell, that price is $300M. Well they really cried for more but even Microsoft must raised an eyebrow (or a chair..) Finally they agreed to another 40 or 50 million as a loan to be paid back over 5 years. But I doubt M$ will pay that much money and not get it back in spades, you can't just kiss those guys on the cheek and get away scot free you know. If they try to liscense gobs of linux the same way half of the Mac Toolbox was embedded in the $200M Quicktime for Windows (which I used as a porting layer on a package similar to Quark Xpress), expect copyright or patent problems to allow M$ to call the agreement a lie and demand their money back, or force Novell to run after coders to buy rights. I can't see anything good come from this. It's not a service agreement, it's a technology liscensing dance and a preliminary to some kind of lawsuit and/or M&A within the next 10 years. Someone tell me why anyone should respect or trust Novell for taking money from Microsoft. Knowing nothing about the deal at all I would still say it destabilizes them, since when you hug Microsoft they hug you right back.
This is honestly not the experience I have with Ubuntu. Granted, I live in Brazil so I installed it on machines ranging from 6 months to 5 years old, not really the latest stuff, and I never have set up wi-fi, but all installations went very very smoothly. And I've been using (and installing and suggesting) Ubuntu since Hoary (and then Breezy, Dapper, Edgy, and some in between). :-/ ), but Linux installation and hardware detection has been working for me much better than Windows (my employer is mainly an MS shop) for many years now. ;-)
Actually, I don't know why I'm arguing this (maybe because you're already modded +3?
Maybe you shouldn't usually expect the very latest hardware to work out-of-the-box on Linux? It's sad this is still the state of affairs, but you know the hardware manufacturers are to blame (the most). You know it, RIGHT?
PS. A user program shouldn't be able to crash the OS, no matter how badly it's written.
It is my opinion that the open source nature of true open source is going to attract the majority of best coders. It seems an inevitable path, and furthermore information does not seem like something that is going to be exactly "secure" at least for the time being. However that could change with quantum computers, different fiber optics, who knows? I don't. But I do think that Real Open Source is what people are most interested, no matter the innovation/ renovation of windows and suse. Maybe Debian will continue to be the solid branch that all real Linux is built on, and maybe ReactOS or something takes over. You don't know. Firefox already has, so don't think a quick Novell buyout is going to grease your skids for much more than half a decade or so.
rhY
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
The issue with nvidia drivers is one caused by nvidia having proprietary drivers that ubuntu can't distribute with the distro...
The problem doesn't occur if your using any videocard that has open drivers, like the very common intel chipsets. If you don't like it, complain to nvidia!
On an intel chipset for example, linux is far more likely to have drivers for it out of the box than current versions of windows, where you'l need to not only install such drivers, but often locate them from the manufacturers website *AND* identify which of the drivers you actually need.
If you find that windows doesnt have a driver for your network card by default, you could be in for a world of trouble... I've had no alternative but to boot linux livecd's on peoples systems in order to download windows network drivers to a usb stick.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Microsoft migrated Hotmail to Windows 2000. See this White Paper on the subject.
The current machine I'm typing on, Celeron 1.4Ghz (P3 family) ABIT MoBo with BX chipset, Voodoo 3 Graphics card.
... I should consider the status of the Novell/MS deal before going beyond 10.2 ...)
Linux has always "just installed" on it. (First install on it was SuSE 8.0, upgrade several times up to openSUSE 10.1
Windows is a another story. At the begining the machine was my brother's (still a teenager at that time). I managed to install him Windows XP, after several weeks fiddling with BIOS settings trying to find that peculiar configuration on which the installer of Windows XP SP1 won't b0rk. Got windows running for a couple of months. Then a massive Windows crash fucked up the installation beyond any hope. Tried to find again 'that magic BIOS configuration' that allows the installer to run (Was it compatibility problems with ACPI ? Something else ?). I just gave up. My brother preferred to try using Linux until he upgraded to a newer machine better supported by Windows. (As a side note, once I did the initial installation / configuration of Linux, he managed to do well. Granted a tennager may be more apt to adapt himself to a new OS than the average Aunt-Tillie...)
When this machine became mine, I never bottered to try to install Windows again, and it has swallowed without complain all the Linux upgrades.
The next machine my brother had was a Athlon 64, K8T mobo, with 1 Go DDR, Radeon 9600XT I bought and assembled for Christmas. Athlon 64 were a very recent newcomer on the swiss market back then (we even had problems of shortages).
Linux installation was almost a kind of "put the CD in the drive and click 'Ok'" simplicity, even if the AMD64 version of SuSE 8.2 that I had in my posession was supposed to be experimental. Mostly no other complaint as of today (just having some problems to get AIGLX and Beryl working nice).
On the other hand, Windows SP1 installer kept b0rking. I took several month, a few BIOS upgrades (not searching for an update. waiting for a new release from the manufacturer) and then a newer Catalyst (same stuff : had to wait for a few new releases) before we had a stable Windows installation that would accept the whole 1Go RAM and not showing massive graphical corruption. And that with a plain 32-bit version. (I gave a few tries with Windows XP 64 in the begining but that wasn't a success either).
In the meantime my brother had once again to use linux.
The same difficulty installing Windows XP on Athlon 64 was experienced by several friends who were early adopter to jump into the 64 bits wagon. Even as of today, Windows can't boot correctly with 3Go RAM, the third DIMM rests usually out of the computer unless I need to borrow the computer to do some scientific calculation under Linux.
This two detailled examples and numerous other situations are the reason I *CAN'T* honestly consider the experience of installing Windows XP 'stellar'.
And Linux installation, on the other hand, has regulary proved to be very felxible, with possibility to install over network and even over internet (no need to have original media), to install on headless servers (SSH is my friend), etc... which is either hard or impossible to replicate with Windows.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
"I really enjoy when morons talk about Slasdhot as though it were a single entity, rather than a group of distinct people..."
Actually, Slashdot is really just one big giant AI system. All the so-called "users", including this one, are really just dummy accounts for the AI. You're the only human here.
Sincerely,
The Slashdot Overmind
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
That is exactly what I thought and I think it has already happened. There needs to be an emergency code audit from any of the normal Novell devs commits going back at least a year. The tainted code has to already be in there for MS and Novell to have pulled this off. I think the entire outside FLOSS community has to be suspect now of Novell Suse code. Sad to say, but just cash money in large enough quantities is usually enough to get corruption in place.
Am I the only one here who didn't know what this acronym meant?
(Acronym decryption courtesy of Acronym Finder.)
Check out Chad's News
Also why is it I find Linux far simpler than Windows
In which appliance?
And don't say "all".
"This isn't the place for your dreams. Here I will step on them... like this... and that."
*sniff* Hey, check your shoes. I think you might have stepped in something.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
"Debian. It's not a company."
What about Software in the Public Interest? Microsoft can still sue them into oblivion. How much damage would the Debian project take if SPI folded?
I'm not (just) being a smart ass, it's a serious question. I imagine Microsoft could probabbly at least cause some serious disruption for Debian.
"Information may want to be free, but infrastructure wants cash." -- me
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Cue the landslide of contradictory anecdotes, all proving nothing whatsoever. You cant draw a generalised conclusion simply from your own personal experience. How do you know that 90% of the people who have ever installed windows or ubuntu didnt have exactly the opposite experience? The same applies either way round. Without a statistically significant sample size (i.e. much greater than 1 in this case) you cant draw any conclusions.
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
Maybe Microsoft will finally let Windows2000/XP/Vista/Whatever die and use Linuxz as the basis for their next generation operating system - allowing developers access to the source code, etc. It shure would be a lot cheaper to have dozens of free development via open source code and GPL than to pay top dollar for closed-source developers. Even though there are free (as in beer) versions of Linux existing, a Microsoft version would be "better" in a few different ways. One way is because Microsoft will tell everyone that it's better, using their vast marketing power. Another way is that, literally, they have millions upon millions of dollars to spend on developers, even assuming they layoff half of their operating system development team. Finally, they can still charge a heafty sum for their 'free' operating system because they can legally include non-GPL code that, for example, allows DirectX10 (or 11 or whatever) to run in Microsoft Linux. This would allow for PC games to run. Or they can include a non-GPL code library that allows Office 2008 (or whatever) to run natively.
I love Linux, I used it at home and at work. But I love playing games under Windows too. Maybe Microsoft will buy a version of linux to sell. They can compete with free by using their marketing power and development money. No linux version can compete with millions of development dollars thrown in. Microsoft could simply use non-GPL code and add it to their version of Linux - thus making it non-free but at the same time making it compete with free linux.
After months of playing with it, giving up, and going back to it, I now have Neverwinter Nights linux version running perfectly on Kubuntu 6.10. Hurrah!
you are talking about installation issues. If you gave a newbie a laptop with ubuntu set up on it, it would be no more difficult to use than windows.
I would say that ubuntu is less likely to go wrong than windows though, in the same way that MacOS X is.
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
It is once you find yourself in court facing a huge fine or something in front of a judge. Guilty/not guilty seems pretty clear cut black and white to me. (I'm not Bruce, just following the thread here because I saw this case roughly similar and can recognize the longer term ramifications of the deal)
And the main point is that Linux is a kernel, but the GPL and userland apps make it an OS, that in turn is usable and freely shareable and modifiable with all users. So far, anything other than the GPL injects restrictions or can inject restrictions-has the potential- and some of those might have quite profound legal and economic repercussions. Now it is quite true that going to other licenses and code can make your OS work better for you-in the short term. In the long term, you will eventually get to the point where you are back to mostly closed source and propietary and possibly expensive, and the whole idea was to avoid that in the first place, wasn't it? Well, wasn't it? You know it was so let us not even debate that.
I have a garden, I have to be relentless on keeping the weeds out. If you ignore the weeds, eventually by the end of summer your entire garden can be a big mess of mostly just weeds and your carefully tended vegetables..are not, they don't grow well, yield much less and it is just "wrong", that's why farmers since the dawn of time "weed the garden". Now one of the things you can do is wall it off, for instance use raised beds with physical barriers, that helps a lot to keep the weeds out. The GPL is that barrier in this analogy. It was good, but the newer proposed version is better, because it explicitly addresses patent issues, and that is exactly what this whole novell and MS issue is about.
Ignoring the weeds will not work, it never has, and never will if your goal is a productive garden.
XGL is already a dead project and you can thank Red Hat, Nvidia and Intel for that.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
Ubuntu was already installed by then. However the X server was apparently misconfigured.
The fact that you find Windows universal and simple has a lot to do with your using it for the last ten years. For the minority of people who live in the Unix world and who haven't used much of Windows in that time frame (and I'm a sorry member of that group), I can assure you that it's anything but simple. On the contrary it's a Schrodinger OS that makes no sense whatsoever and where everything appears to have been obfuscated and randomised on purpose. The applications may be reasonably simple to use (mostly because all graphical applications are mostly the same nowadays whatever the platform) but the OS certainly isn't.
Granted your problem shouldn't have happened (especially with the kind of user oriented focus Ubuntu had) but it was probably something a seasoned user would have fixed without even having to refer to documentation.
Not to mention that the Windows documentation is *really* bad, even compared to what's available for Linux which isn't exactly a stellar reference in the Unix world (unless maybe if you buy some sort of book which I never did because I never was that interested anyway).
All in all it's very difficult to comment on a system you use for the first time, especially when all the concepts are as wildly different as they are as between Windows and Unix.
And regarding the serious compatibility issue, I don't buy it. Unless it's a problem of a lacking proprietary driver for a winmodem, a WiFi card, or something exotic like a fingerprint reader, compatibility issues on current PC hardware are extremely rare. The drivers not being directly included in the distributions and requiring some tweaking to install is a bit of a problem. Not really directly linked to Linux though, more to both the IP legislation (or RF legislation for WiFi cards) or the doctrine driving the "all free" distributions. Fully commercial ones are usually more friendly in that regard.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
I don't think that most Windows users have any idea what is going on when somebody tells them to go to
Control Panel -> Network Connections -> Local Area Connection -> Properties -> Internet Protocol(TCP/IP)-> Properties -> (...set IP address, subnet mask, default gateway, and DNS server addresses)
They may have some idea what's happening up to about the second step, but then it gets into stuff that is totally foreign and not something they intend to ever poke around in again after they get it working this time. Anything beyond buttons that tell you that clicking this will change your desktop background to this is beyond what they are willing to understand. It's not out of stupidity, just that they only want to know what is necessary to do their work and then fall back on step-by-step instructions for anything else.
Also, every single time I have ever called support for anything on Windows, I've always been instructed to open up a shell and start typing commands for diagnostics. It's simply more straightforward in many cases, and many things cannot be done easily on a Windows basic install without typing some commands.
But, I don't disagree that it is holding Linux back to still depend on some command line use to get things running. Having a 100% GUI configuration option would be a Good Thing. But, I think it is just because people have the perception that a shell is old-fashioned and not friendly to them, or that they don't get the visual feedback they want, as from a GUI. It is these things will send people running from Linux, NOT that they need, or even want to understand anything they are doing.
Excuse my ignorance if I'm miss informed, but [IIRC] Mac OS X was built on top of Unix. Is it possible that Microsoft is planning to go in the same direction as a means to make a more secure and robust Operating System? Obviously with Vista on the way, it would be some time before they do this.
I might be overly optimistic.
"Not only that but the Linux community goes to outrageous efforts to make it inter operable with other OS's (reverse engineering) while Microsoft goes to extreme efforts to ensure no OS can inter operate with Windows."
Assigning blame will not change the end result.
"You set it up and it works forever."
Windows doesn't require a text editor to set up.
If you knew as much about Linux as you claim you'd have known how to edit that file without looking on "forums"... ...just like you special arcane knowledge (and maybe even a second PC!) to install Windows XP on a PC with a SATA hard disk.
I'm guessing what happend is you've got some cheapo graphics and you had to set XFree86 config to "vesa". It's pretty common, and if you'd done a few Linux installs you'd know how to do it.
Is Linux ready for grannys to install? Nope, but neither is Windows XP. Most people get XP preinstalled for them.
No sig today...
Hmmmm.... Corel Linux anyone?
Actually, it could be argued that NT/200x/XP is a *nix variant as well. NT is (or was) based on a heavily modified version of the Mach kernel, the same one used by OS X.
To get Ubuntu to install on my machine, I had to manually edit a config file to get the screen to display correctly, but could only do so *after* the Ubuntu installer crashed (like, duh?). I found this out after digging through Ubuntu forum posts for about an hour (there was nothing in the Wiki related to this).
You may have been just unlucky. I've had no such problems - for me, it was install wait and go. But I've had similar problems installing XP on occasion. As in, a BSOD on first boot due to a poorly-written default video driver. I had to boot into recovery console and replace the driver file manually. Point is, shit happens with any complex hardware-universal OS. The only reason why Apple gets less of these complaints is that its OS is meant to run on certain very specific hardware and it gets the final say-so on what it will support (OSx86 and other unauthorized projects aside.)
-b.
Install the Windows driver under ndiswrapper if there's no supported Linux driver for your chipset.
-b.
That's because they're all owned and marketed by Microsoft. I suppose that would be more intraoperability as opposed to interoperability.
What's your point? It all still works together very easily. I use software to do my job. I don't care who makes it. I just need it to work.
It looked like Novell needs the cash like a certain other company years ago did such as Apple when they got a $100 million investment from MS. Look where Apple is now. Overall, this will be a good deal for both short-term cash and the inherent 'safeness' in buying a Novell platform in your Enterprise environment. The world isn't turning upside down here folks.
Every time I see a statement like this it pisses me off. Linux is very inter operable with every mainstream OS except Windows.
Wow. That's like saying that those floormats work in every mainstream car, except those with 4 wheels.
And you know what, Windows isn't inter operable with any other OS that exists. Not only that but the Linux community goes to outrageous efforts to make it inter operable with other OS's (reverse engineering) while Microsoft goes to extreme efforts to ensure no OS can inter operate with Windows.
I don't care. I'm not a programmer (any more) or a philosopher or a financial analyst. I need my software to work so that I can work. I care about what the end result is. Whatever happens behind the scenes is 100% irrelevant to me and my business.
Also why is it I find Linux far simpler than Windows. You set it up and it works forever. On rare occasions that there are problems you can find a definitive solution unlike Windows where you just reboot and pray because no one including Microsoft knows what's happening with most problems.
If I could figure out how to set up any of my business software on Linux, then I'd agree. Until then, it's still pretty much 100% useless for me and my business.
I don't know. This argument keeps getting floated. (and it always seems to be the programmers fault -- figure that).
Let's go to the car analogy. Just because I feel like it.
Your wife decides to purchase aftermarket transmission. Does she now install this herself? I presume she knows all about the mechanisms in the transmission (presuming your wife is not an auto mechanic).
Play around in the GUI, hoping to fix a problem. Without really understanding the problem, I presume.
I presume a lot, I guess. I KNOW that I wouldn't touch my transmission. Even though I KNOW what makes it tick. Mostly because I am not an experienced mechanic. And if I WERE to try to install it, and it DIDN'T WORK, I would... obviously (back to the computer thing)... blame the card manufacturer or the transmission manufacturer... for not making it easier to install.
And if I were actually able to get the thing in, AND the car still worked, but it dropped onto the highway at speed, obviously I would blame... well, everyone else again.
Just sayin'
Since we are not trying to sell "Linux" to anyone (Novell, Redhat, etc are, but its not "Linux" they are selling, simply an OS based on the Linux kernel) -- we can take the correct path. Setting up a binary only driver is tough? You betcha. And it stays that way, until the vendors cooperate more fully. Note with your money (for instance, buy Intel graphics).
YMMV
Ratboy
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
He must be new here.
Mom and pop don't install Linux. Mom and pop don't install Windows. Linux is just as ready for them as Windows is (in fact, it's arguably superior in several categories). However, it does require vendor cooperation--just like Windows
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
You realize who makes the nvidia drivers, don't you? Why is it Linux's fault that Nvidia's driver installation sucks?
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
so this is the last comment on slashdot ever,,,,,,, or
You should have ended that with "NO CARRIER".
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Is there an example of an industry where this has worked as a strategy.
It's called FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
This is a pretty classic example, actually; comment's like Ballmer's (yesterday), which hinted that people who used a non-Novell Linux would be sued, are its hallmarks. They're not tangible threats, and thus they're not things that can easily be defended against or refuted. They just serve to make the people in decision-making positions uneasy, and thus lead them down the path of least resistance. It's basically an attempt to make a smaller competitor look like an 'unknown quantity' in comparison to a well-known offering by a big-name company.
Many people consider the first instance of "FUD" in the IT world to have been by IBM against Amdahl during the mainframe wars (this is mentioned in the WP article above), but as a business tactic I'm sure you could find lots more historical examples. (Things that come to mind -- early automotive manufacturers prior to the resolution of the Selden patent, various 19th century 'railroad wars'.)
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
Linux is not simpler than Windows. You don't simply push a button and suddenly everything works. I just installed Ubuntu on my laptop and had to fight a small war to get accelerated graphics working. I had to change the wireless network stuff so it used ndiswrapper instead of whatever it was the installer wanted to use to prevent it from constantly dropping connections.
You think Windows users DON'T suffer from this? Just look at all the crazy forum posts in sites such as driverguide.com... Look at all the hoops you have to jump through to get most video capture solutions working, or to get SBLive or Audigy to work properly without installing tons of shovelware at the same time. Linux looks lean and mean in comparison, and yes, most of the time it does work without even pushing a button. Windows requires tons of 3rd party software, each with its own installation methodology and source for downloads/updates, to make Windows even usable. Linux works like magic in comparison and gets all downloads/updates from one location.
The Linux devs will not standardise their driver ABI, meaning each time you upgrade the kernel the NVIDIA module goes with it. If they would stabilise their ABI, this would rarely be necessary, and it could certainly be easier to work with than it currently is.
Also, X11 is unable to switch card drivers on the fly (i.e. without completely closing X and reopening it).
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
Arguably, but what does this have to do with the sucky driver installer that nvidia has?
Yes, this annoys me too. The good news is that the X hackers are working on this problem even as we waste time.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
Today, if you start with XP Pro with SP2 slipstreamed (or just an XP w/SP2 disc from MS) you will have about 30 minutes and four reboots just to download updates (at broadband speeds) to bring you up to current. How long ago did you do this install?
Starting with SP1, or with no-SP and installing SP2, you end up with about six reboots and an hour downloading/installing. Mind you, I'm talking about a fairly fast machine here, too.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
No, Linux was outrageously interoperable with the classic Mac OS too.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Actually, yes. That is what I'm saying.
My wife wants to do X. She would prefer to figure out how to do it on her own, which is completely understandable. (I'd hate it if I had to call in help all the time too) That said, she only wants to understand what is going on
Why? That's the downfall of most software with bad usability. One of the things you learn in Usability is that the user is always right. More specifically, their attitude and intentions are correct. You can't, and shouldn't, be trying to change it.
Take the example with a typical user with tons of adware on their system. Did they intend to make their machine run to a crawl? Or want it to be unstable? Certainly not. They just wanted to install some nifty toolbar or browser plug-in. They don't realize the possible negative implications of doing so.
There are a couple of things that can be done on the software front to improve this (and yes, this is mostly a rant on Windows). First of all, why can't the user have a ton of random plugins, and still not slow down their system? That obviously is the most ideal. If not possible, then the system needs to do a better job of informing and protecting the user. Maybe that isn't what the user wants to do, and do a decent job of explaining why. What we have now are these scary dialog boxes that don't quite do that job yet.
So, going back to my main point
-- jchenx
Outlook not so good.
Exchange isn't much better.
Now I've only ever cared for three exchange servers - two at the far end of VPNs on dynamic addresses which made nail biting experiences far worse, but my limited experience exposed me to large numbers of problems you would never expect with server grade (let alone enterprise grade) software. Having to shut down the mail server processes just to do a backup - pathetic and unacceptable when you get phone calls from the guys staring early at 4am who can't send email because the backup is running. Having a state where an install is an open relay by default without a patch - this one bit the quite experienced MS Exchange consultant we got in to do an upgrade since this behavior was introduced by another recent patch. Lots of interoperatablity problems with the third party apps you need to keep it free of viruses and send out faxes - which resulted in a stupid problem where the admin password had to be the same forever. A bare metal recovery procedure that is the stuff of nightmares and I'm happy I was only doing to recover some mailboxes from backup without putting them on the real mail server (an expensive process - you need another licence to do this sort of thing). Registry hacks instead of a GUI or command line switches to turn common features on or off. A fresh install would not have all of these problems - but each service pack and patch added another level of complexity to the recovery process. I recommend an email server program instead of the odd thing that is exchange which came in and broke interoperability with email.
Active directory was also mentioned - remember it is a subset of LDAP which runs on as lot of things.
One last interoperability question - how do you get a 40GB fat32 partition? Answer - you format it with linux or MSDOS and then do your XP install becuase the MS tools don't work correctly with the MS filesystem in this and many other cases. Interoperability is not really something Microsoft does - they are good at other things.
"SPI doesn't own too many copyrights..."
:)
Well, that's certainly good in terms of survivability of the source code. But I was thinking more along the lines of infrastructure and disruption to Debian operations. The servers and networks that host Debian development, release management, QA, downloads, etc. Is there a convenient target there for Microsoft to attack? Or is it all so well distributed that it becomes a whack-a-mole problem for Microsoft?
"And if MS chose to sue SPI, I can think of some folks who would put up money for SPI's defense, and it doesn't look at all good for MS to sue a charitable non-profit."
They have plenty of standard defenses for that: "Defending innovation", "Defending their property", "Protecting their shareholders", etc. Plus, Microsoft's done so many despicable and/or illegal things in the past, one more really isn't going to matter that much. If Gates, Ballmer, and company were more concerned with being perceived as "nice" than being rich, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
...server grade (let alone enterprise grade) software.
/. what open source alternative can truly measure up to the features Exchange/Outlook offer and the responses I get are the sheepish reply of "well, none."
Now I'm not privy to the full out details of the setup you used of Exchange or what versions you used, but I do have to disagree with this statement in regards to Exchanger 2000 and 2003. They are the definition of an enterprise grade mail system. I have asked a few times on
Having to shut down the mail server processes just to do a backup...
I agree with you that that would be messed up, but once again, I've never had to do that to backup Exchange and I've manged Exchange for over 5 years.
Active directory was also mentioned - remember it is a subset of LDAP which runs on as lot of things.
Actually, LDAP is the subset and is the case in almost all instances of an LDAP server. One extends LDAP with different schemata which is what AD does as well eDirectory of Novell.
how do you get a 40GB fat32 partition? Answer - you format it with linux or MSDOS and then do your XP install
Why the hell would you want XP installed on FAT32 instead of NTFS? I cannot fathom a single reason to do this especially when dealing with a FS larger than 40GB.
A graduate of Pope High School in Marietta, Georgia, in 1998, he lives in Atlanta and claims to attend Georgia State University. Andy Zebrowitz is a co-founder of the Mirrorshades project and, in his own words, "a writer, actor, and co-founder of Dixie Flatline and the Panther Moderns, a theatre troupe specializing in gothic and fetish drama performances at nightclubs in the Atlanta area."
He frequently abuses his position as a helpdesk monkey (technical director) at a VoIP provider to harass his employer's customers by publishing their personal details on the internet and creating libelous websites about them. For this task Zebrowitz has created a posse of IRC lusers, including Yaroslav Shirokov aka Slava aka Mutatorr of Alpharetta, Georgia, and Bryan Allen aka bda aka harb, a network security administrator for Drexel University until he was fired for incompetence.
One such harassment case is that of VoIP customer and fellow Atlantan internet dipshit Steve Milano. Outraged at being treated like the information age peasant that he is, Zebrowitz posted Milano's name and helpdesk emails in his Kuro5hin diary. Unfortunately, the offending diary entries were later deleted by Kuro5hin administrators. However, the myriad websites Zebrowitz and his lackeys set up to defame Milano can be found by doing a simple Google search.
When not fighting his imaginary internet foes, Andy can be found staring at disco balls or posing with swords in parking lots.
Mr. Zebrowitz is of the Jewish persuasion.