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Critical Review of the Zune

ceallaigh writes "Andy Ihnatko of the Chicago Sun-Times has a critical review of the Zune. "Avoid," is my general message. The Zune is a square wheel, a product that's so absurd and so obviously immune to success that it evokes something akin to a sense of pity."

99 of 616 comments (clear)

  1. Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Wireless. More space than a nomad. Awesome."

    1. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by bigman2003 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm a bigtime Microsoft fan. Yes, there are some out there, and I am one of them. (Xbox, 2 Xbox 360's, 3 XP machines, mice, etc. etc. etc.)

      I *wanted* to buy a Zune, I really did. I wanted it to integrate in with everything else I own/run.

      I was hot to do it until I found out that it didn't integrate in with Windows Media Player....WTF? I have years of files integrated into that player. Microsoft has been pushing it forever, and I went with it. I do like WMP- I think it's a pretty nice piece of software. In fact the only reason I never bought an iPod is because it won't integrate with WMP.

      So when Microsoft came out with a player that didn't integrate with its core piece of media software, I thought that was a travesty. But, I was still willing to drink their Kool-Aid...until I found out they don't support Audible.com files.

      It's amazing that a DRM infested piece of equipment like this doesn't support DRM infested Audible.com files. It seems like a match made in heaven (for them...) but somehow this failed to happen.

      So, no Windows Media Player support...no Audible.com support. I just couldn't bring myself to buy one.

      So instead I bought a Creative Zen MicroPhoto. Which became a brick the instant I upgraded the firmware to support Audible.com. I returned that and bought an iRiver Clix.

      The Clix is nice- good interface, works well. The Audible.com upgrade didn't go too well (I had to use my wife's computer, because mine wouldn't recognize it) but I eventually got it. But instead of a 30+ Gig powerhouse with video, I ended up with a 2GB flash player. (Does video, but only 15fps)

      I would have bought a Toshiba Gigabeat, or one of the new Sansa players, but they don't support Audible.com, and I need that.

      Okay, last little bit of my rant here...I do NOT mind paying for content, doesn't bother me one bit. I would RATHER use Audible.com than BitTorrent because I think that artists and writers deserve to be paid for their work. But over the last year I have resorted to downloading at least a dozen books using BitTorrent because Audible.com sucks ass. Not only is the DRM a piece of crap, but the quality of the audio on their files blows.

      Should I have gone with the Gigabeat and just used BitTorrent (yay UTorrent!) to get my audiobooks? Possibly...because I don't think that Audible.com deserves any money because they suck. But overall I would rather be guilt-free. But the day that there is a reasonable alternative to the big players (Apple/Audible) I will jump on it immediately. Really, when will they realize that their DRM only frustrates legitimate customers, and those who want to steal are going to do it anyway?

      --
      No reason to lie.
    2. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by NiceGeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hate to say this, but why not an iPod? It supports Audible out of the box.

    3. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by Scarblac · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a bit of comfort, I'm the anti-you in technology preferences, and I have trouble finding a nice mp3 player that supports the Ogg files that make up almost my entire music collection...

      --
      I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    4. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 4, Funny

      What does wmv have over mp3?

      Erm... Video?

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    5. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by quintesse · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, me too. Actually bought a player that supported Ogg (even though it was not mentioned anywhere on their website nor in the manual! I knew about by reading some forums) but brought it back the next day.

      What happened?

      In the evening of the same day that I bought it a friend showed me her Video iPod... I was completely blown away, now THAT's how a music player should work! My brand new player just paled in comparison, even though it played all my Ogg files.

      So now I'm waiting for the perfect combination iPod-friendliness + ogg support.

    6. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by Bertie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your first mistake was nailing your flag to the DRM flag at all. Now you've got a significant amount of music that you don't want to abandon, and it's like a millstone round your neck, dictating to you which machines you can consider buying. And that's after a fairly short space of time. Imagine if you'd spent ten years building your whole record collection out of this shite. You'd be baying for blood.

      I just don't get why people buy downloaded music at all, especially not DRM'd stuff. For a marginally higher cost, a CD gives you your music in an uncompressed format and leaves it up to you how you want to encode it. And it's got pretty packaging too. Until music downloads are losslessly encoded, DRM-free, and allow me to send for the cover art at no additional charge, I'm not buying.

      So that'd be "never", then.

      Fuck 'em. Don't give them your money. Keep buying CDs until they come back with the online music stores we want, rather than the ones they see fit to give us.

    7. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by Bertie · · Score: 4, Informative

      Buy Korean. iRiver, Cowon, and Samsung's players all do Ogg Vorbis, and I'm sure others do too.

    8. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by jhylkema · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As I said, I have years worth of WMA and WMV files.

      Not meant as a troll or a flamebait, but you're one stupid sonofabitch. Why did you get married to a proprietary (and inferior) format invented with the sole purpose of DRM and vendor lock-in? You could have just as easily gone with standard formats like MP3 and use whatever player/platform you wanted.

      I must say, friend, you really did drink the Kool-Aid. And I'm going to sit in the corner and laugh my ass off.

    9. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by Shads · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I used to occasionally pirate songs (prior to itunes) and would toss the actual artists a few dollars in snail mail directly, the responses I got from a lot of the small bands was simply amazing. T-Shirts, signed *real* photographs, cd's (lol), etc... and when I say a few dollars, I don't mean 20$ I mean 5$ or 10$. I got some interesting letters from bands too saying this is more money for a cd of theirs or a song or whatever than they would have seen selling over 100 through normal channels and that they greatly appreciated it. Shrug.

      The RIAA really helps screw the artists, as do the labels, and sure, some pirates are screwing the artists too. Most however are young kids who can't afford to buy the music in the first place... so they're not screwing the artist they're making them more popular.

      Listener who bought CD > Listener who wouldn't/couldn't buy CD > Someone who doesn't listen

      --
      Shadus
    10. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 4, Funny
      Not meant as a troll or a flamebait, but you're one stupid sonofabitch.

      Now there's a quote that seems destined to become somebody's sig.

    11. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by shmlco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Most however are young kids who can't afford to buy the music in the first place... so they're not screwing the artist..."

      Now THAT'S just another rationalization. When I was a kid music was important to me, and somehow my friends and I always managed to find the money needed to get the music we wanted. We might not have been able to afford everything we WANTED, but we did manage to buy the stuff that was important to us, using money from jobs, allowances, and so on.

      Today, too many kids make the same rationalization that you just did... and then go spend the money they "didn't have" on clothes or other things they can't rip off quite so easily.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    12. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by mhbtr · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, AAC is not locked in with Apple. It is part of the MP4 standard and the successor to MP3 (it is also known as MP4). All it has over MP3 (other than being higher quality at the same file size and support for more channels/bitrates/bitdepths) is that it ha mechanisms to allow for DRM. That said, AACs you encode yourself are DRM-less. Songs you buy from the ITS have Fairplay DRM (which is Apple's DRM). All none DRMd AACs will play in a Zune without modification (and several other players). While it is not open source (like .ogg), it is not any more closed source than .MP3 (how many of you out there know that media player makers have to play royalties to Thompson, etc. for the use of .MP3?) I honestly don't know why AAC has not caught on more - it is so much more "open" than WMA, an has MUCH more broad support than .ogg. -- .sigs are for suckers

    13. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by 7Prime · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a difference between music connoisseurs and audiophiles. Many Audiophiles I know take pride in only listening to the quality of the recording (not even the balance of the production), the quality of the music totally goes out the window. Seriously, I can listen to the crappiest audio production, if the composition and musicality is solid. Obviously, I'd prefer great production... and as someone who has a degree in audio production and electronic composition, it means a lot to me. But so many people go overboard. My feeling is that if audio quality hinders your ability to listen to good music, then you've got your priorities messed up. I think it's along the lines of being a wine-connoisseur, but refusing to drink out of anything but the finest crystal, you're bound to miss a lot of great wines that way.

      --
      Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
    14. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by MoxFulder · · Score: 3, Informative

      MOD PARENT UP!

      How is this flamebait? The GP is obviously a fairly well-informed technical person who tries to make intelligent choices about technology and standards and stuff... and yet, as the parent points out, the GP has chosen to keep all his music in a totally proprietary locked-down Microsoft format.

      I'd say the parent's comments are entirely appropriate...

    15. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by tigga · · Score: 3, Insightful
      How is this flamebait? The GP is obviously a fairly well-informed technical person who tries to make intelligent choices about technology and standards and stuff... and yet, as the parent points out, the GP has chosen to keep all his music in a totally proprietary locked-down Microsoft format.

      No, Microsoft is his religion, you can't question person's beliefs.

    16. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by adzoox · · Score: 3, Informative

      You were just trolling. iPodLinux runs GREAT on my Nano AND gives me the ability to run MAME on top of OGG support. Newer iPods just aren't supported as with "most open source projects" - the older releases are official ... the newer are "unofficial"

      --
      Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
    17. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 3, Interesting

      One year worth of WMA content at 128 Mbps would be 1 year in seconds (60 * 60 * 24 * 365) times 128, divided by 8, in megabytes. That's 481 terabytes. I humbly suggest that if your music library is 481 terabytes large, none of these solutions to managing it is satisfactory.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    18. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by garote · · Score: 2, Informative

      60*60*24*365 = 31536000 seconds. 128 Mbps, that's megaBITS per second, is 128 * 1024 / 8 = 16384 bytes per second, or 16k/second, or 0.015625 MEGABYTES per second.

      This times that renders 481 GIGAbytes, not TERAbytes.

      And I actually do have a music collection that large, however it's because I ripped all my CDs into non-DRM lossless format (ALAC). Which plays on the iPod and sounds (and I can say this with 100% confidence) better than WMA or MP3 or AAC whatever the bitrate, and I don't need a fancy spectral analysis or double-blind experiment to prove it. And if anyone anywhere ever changes the encoding format on whatever device I buy in the future, I'm sure to lose absolutely nothing during the inevitable transcode. Mmmmyep, feels good to be smug. :)

      But SRSLY, folks - the whole era of music compression format wars is starting to get just a little bit irrelevant, when we've got bic-sized devices that hold 200 minutes of non-lossy audio and 400GB hard drives on sale for $100 online.

    19. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by garote · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why hasn't anything overtaken the MP3 standard you ask?


      In response I present you Exhibit P:

      One hundred million pirates.

    20. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by badasscat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I assume you mean "wma". WMA provides a higher quality sound at a lower file size/bit rate.

      Bullshit.

      Both Apple *and* MS would love for you to believe that their codecs can sound twice as good as mp3 at half the bit rate, but unfortunately for them it just isn't true and that double-blind listening test proved it some time ago. Statistically, the difference is not all that great, but in absolute terms, mp3 actually sounds *better* than wma even at the *same* bit rate. You can forget about trying to get wma to sound anywhere near as good as mp3 at a lower bit rate. (Apple's AAC fares a bit better, but not a whole lot.)

      There is simply no compelling reason to use anything other than either Vorbis (if you want the absolute best lossy compression at the expense of compatibility) or mp3 (if you want the best lossy compression with the most compatibility). You're a fool to lock yourself into one company's products by using an inferior compression algorithm.

    21. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by StikyPad · · Score: 2, Funny

      What do you mean destined to become?!?

    22. Re:Did you see CmdrTaco's review of the Zune? by morpheus343 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If someone steals a leather jacket they'll be charged with a crime relative to the value of that jacket (say a couple of hundred dollars). If they steal a BMW they'll be charged with a much more serious crime because the value of that item is much greater (tens of thousands of dollars). In both cases the theft has prevented the rightful owner of that property from enjoying the benefits of their property and in both those cases the punishment for the crime will be in direct relation to the value of the item(s) stolen.

      Now compare that to "stealing" in the music industry's world. Even though they have lost no use of their "property" and even though the "theft" it hasn't cost them a single cent, they'll sue you in civil court and they'll demand damages far in excess of the average retail price of their "property". If the music industry was willing to behave like any other industry when it came to "theft" I might be inclined to believe the "stealing" angle, but you know that no normal retailer or manufacturer could demand thouands of dollars in reparations for items that cost $0.99 on iTunes. Major media producers plays by their own rules (the are designed to benefit ONLY them) and I refuse to go along with their opportunistic whining.

      Personally I enjoy seeing people like you blindly buying into the music industry's propoganda so fully. They tell you that it's stealing and they tell you it's like stealing a car and you buy it. Nevermind that the actual term is copyright infringement or that copyright was never intended to be wielded like a mighty stick against the consumer, THEY told you what's what and that's as far as you go in your thought process.

      Nevermind that companies like Sony put rootkits on their CDs, nevermind that movie studios have arbitrarily decided to undermine established legal precedent (the Betamax case), nevermind that software companies decide how long you can use software you "bought", the media companies have spoke and you fall into line like a good obedient consumer. Good job.

      Stop calling it "stealing" and stop using the same tired and idiotic comparisons to stealing tangible goods and then maybe we can have a useful discussion about what is and is not fair use and just what rights media companies should have over the products that they release into the world.

  2. Some additional comments... by BWJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Never mind that Andy is usually an advocate for Apple's products, however, as he is often, Andy is right on and I agree with his sentiments. In addition to his comments, I got to spend a little time with a Zune and initially liked the large screen until I actually turned the device on. I found it to be clunky, awkward, irritating, non-intuitive, completely incompatible with previous Microsoft music standards, and has none of the features that make the iPod so completely useful (ability to hold various media and data, even allowing you to boot from Firewire iPods). And forcing users to rely on the Zune application to move data onto or off the device is infuriating (kind of like the Creative devices. Is it possible to "open" a Creative media player and put data onto it without having to use the Creative application?).

    I simply cannot believe that Microsoft *ever* asked itself how users might interface with such a device and it's obsequious pandering to the music industry in an effort to out-compete Apple in this space rather than putting the effort into making a better product to the iPod quite simply offends. Hey Microsoft, how much did you spend coming up with this marketing, because I am simply stunned at how bad this is. If Microsoft *really* was interested in making a better product and not acting as a pimp for the record industry, they would also not have relied on "Zune Points" to purchase music. As anybody who has ever taken Marketing101 knows, you should always facilitate the process of getting people to spend money on your products and anything that steps in-between or slows this process down had better have a damn good reason for existing. Why do I have to buy "Zune Points" to then make music purchases? It's just stupid.

    Oh, and Microsoft..... Just a suggestion: Very few end users want their products to "squirt" anything at them. That is just bad marketing.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:Some additional comments... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, you can load music and video onto a Creative Zen Vision, Zen Vision M or Zen with Windows Media Player.

      Personally I find the one year old, Creative Zen Vision, a far better iPod alternative. It has a 640by480 res screen,
      30 GB HD, plays almost any video file downloadable (mpeg4, mpeg1, mpeg2, AVI, divx, xvid, mjpeg), allows you to read CF cards,
      plays the radio, plays MP3's, Audible files and WMA files, record sound via a built in mic, plays also through an small external speaker,
      allows you to view JPEGs and lets you output sound and video in full DVD quality to your TV and HT amp. It's a much better product, already out
      for a year now.

    2. Re:Some additional comments... by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      "And forcing users to rely on the Zune application to move data onto or off the device is infuriating Though very frustrating, doesn't the iPod do this too? (Or do you mean ANY data and not just songs?)"

      You know...I think the zune may indeed become a valuable toy to play with...once someone out there rips it apart software/os wise.....possibly puts linux on it...and makes it a general use player. I'd think the built-in wireless on this would make that worthwhile...

      I'll wait till this thing is thoroughly 'hacked'......and someone take what may be decent hardware (just guessing here), and makes it useful with non MS and non-RIAA backed 'prisonware'......once opensource works on this, it may be worth getting.

      Till then...I'll wait and get one on eBay for a good price....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Some additional comments... by happyemoticon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think he's talking about ANY data whatsoever. A lot of people just use these HD-based MP3 players as jumbo thumb drives. I know an IT guy who keeps multiple OS images on his. I have lots of (non-ipod-based) movies on mine.

      Also, the fact that you can access the drive normally means you can go into a little folder called .iPod_Control (or something) and do fun things like export your songs and hack the iPod database. The songs aren't on a separate partition or anything, they're just named funny things like SFJI.mp3 and put into weird folders.

      The whole Zune thing seems weird and sad. I mean, I don't think Microsoft is inherently bad or evil, I just wish they would live up to their own hype. They imagine their OS and associated peripherals as a paradise island of connectivity and ease, and then they go and make Zune and slap a 1000 meter restraining order on it and put it on a raft in the Pacific. What's next, Microsoft, a next-generation PDA for young professionals on the go that is 100% incompatible with any Office document?

    4. Re:Some additional comments... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree with you BWJones, that forcing users to use a particular bit of software with an mp3 player is the kiss of death. In fact, this type of limitation is a big black mark for any type of hardware as far as I'm concerned. Yesterday, I bought a SanDisk Cruzer 2gig flash drive. When I plugged it in, I found that it had some dopey software that ran upon insertion and a whole bunch of nonsense that curiously resembled spyware. And no simple way to just format the whole thing and use it as I wish. (I was able to figure it out, but I had to waste almost as much time as it took me to open the horrific plastic display shield the product came in. (This is a completely different issue, but the Cruzer had about the worst packaging I've ever had to deal with. I finally had to use a pair of poultry shears and an exacto-knife to open the package).

      The one "feature" of the Zune that a lot of the reviewers don't seem to mention is the way it integrates DRM in the most limiting way. Here's a news flash to mp3 player manufacturers: Let me use the thing as mass storage and don't try to play rights-police with me. Leave that problem to the entertainment business and just sell me hardware that works. I want to be able to drag files on and off my player the same way I do with a hard drive.

      That's some free advice, by the way, and everyone I know who uses a portable media player feels the same way. Ignore it at your own risk.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re:Some additional comments... by Buzz_Litebeer · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here is a good one, this is a CNN review of the Zune

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buKaqRG2SFA&mode=re lated&search=

      It turns into an ad for the new ipod shuffle. It is hilarity.

      --
      If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
    6. Re:Some additional comments... by CleverBoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >> Actually, incompatible with only one.

      Pretty sure everyone knows he's talking about the protected music standard as it involves both purchased tracks and rented tracks, and neither of these cases are supported.

      ]] "...has none of the features that make the
      ]] iPod so completely useful..."
      >> None? It doesn't play music or video?

      Not "none", but that's hyperbole for you. Pretty sure everyone knows what those "useful" features are. "Scroll wheel, hard drive, easy-to-use online store/media manager, podcast support". The sentiment is that too many things are getting in the way. That's simply not easy, and apparently not competitive.

      >> For those who don't want to purchase DRM'ed music,
      >> Zune points aren't involved at all.

      So, for those who want fewer options, they don't need to be inconvenienced by this travesty Microsoft will encourage you to use? If you think Microsoft won't push Zune users into their marketplace with the hard sell, I think you misjudge why it didn't ship with podcasts. Then again, maybe it was the bug count.

      >> Somehow I doubt you're intent on offering Microsoft
      >> any useful advice.

      You'd be right, but everyone would wonder what took you so long to figure it out. My impression is that people are angry about the Zune, less because of any "how dare you" sentiment, but more because they feel Microsoft had a real opportunity and BLEW it. Now, all eyes turn elsewhere for a new iPod alternative.

    7. Re:Some additional comments... by avalys · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can easily transfer music from your iPod to your computer now, too - Apple saw the light and added that a few months/revisions ago.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    8. Re:Some additional comments... by MojoStan · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to Apple that only works with songs purchased from iTunes Store and authorized computers. I hope people's music collections are not made up of mostly iTunes Store songs.

      --
      TO START
      PRESS ANY KEY

      Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...

  3. Subjective Review by eldavojohn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not saying that the Zune is good by any means nor have I had a chance to play around with one. Which is why I read this review--I was hoping for a good review on this new MP3 player.

    But I found this to be a particularly bad review. Perhaps I don't read a lot of reviews but I prefer them to be thorough. One thing that stuck out about this review is that it didn't even have room for something nice to say about the Zune. Not one thing. I'm sure a high school student could write me a review with a PROS/CONS table that would be more informative than this. I find it very hard to believe that this reviewer managed to not find anything good about the Zune.

    Here's a simple question I didn't see answered anywhere, "Did it work?" If it did what was its sound quality like? Is it durable? How heavy/large is it? Every point of this article a mark against the Zune. I think that a 'review' entitles you to be subjective & look at it from all angles then weigh in at the end about whether or not you would recommend it. Instead this review starts off with the quote, "Yes, Microsoft's new Zune digital music player is just plain dreadful. I've spent a week setting this thing up and using it, and the overall experience is about as pleasant as having an airbag deploy in your face. 'Avoid,' is my general message. The Zune is a square wheel, a product that's so absurd and so obviously immune to success that it evokes something akin to a sense of pity." Why should I even finish reading your review if that's the first thing you say?

    And then Apple enters your review. I can understand a comparison to other competitive MP3 players but you just start using the brand name Apple. Why? Why not give me a rundown of this versus iRiver or Creative's MP3 players? So the Toshiba MP3 player is $40 cheaper, doesn't tell me much if it sucks even more. Are they also compatible with podcasts and WMA codecs?

    Reading this review causes me to question Andy Ihnatko's motive. Is he reviewing the Zune, grinding an ax or trying to get me to buy an iPod? I know the thing sucks but at least be fair if you're going to write a review for the masses.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Subjective Review by squoozer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is that the "good" things were probably things you just take for granted like play lists and good sound quality. I've had pieces of hardware that had so many bad points it was impossible even see adequate let alone good points. It's almost as if the bad points push the good points into the corner and start waving at you at that point even thinking about the device makes you froth at the mouth with anger.

      --
      I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    2. Re:Subjective Review by Nf1nk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The thing is that in the $200+ price range most MP3 players sound pretty good. They hold a decent amount of music. The question becomes what other features do they have and why should I buy one that isn't the ipod. For the thing to be successful it has to be easier to use. If the reviewer had to manualy rig up a dll, it isn't easy to use. Since it came from MS you would expect it to work seamlessly with windows and the media player that windows comes with, it doesn't. It has wifi it should be able to link up with other wifi devices and move data around, it doesn't. The music share feature is so limited as to be useless. The Zune would be disapointing if some third party built it, but coming from ms it is inexcusable.

      The reason why The ipod is used instead of the iRiver or the creative is that the gold iPod is the standard by which music players are judged. By now most people have experianced an iPod, but wouldn't know an iRiver if it bit them.

      Perhaps this is a

      --
      I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
    3. Re:Subjective Review by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, this review is in the Chicago Sun Times; it's targeted at the average Joe Blow consumer, not the technical people. As a result, the style makes a lot of sense. The style is conversational, to try to get people to read it. It's also short and not very in-depth. Yes, you're right it focuses on all the bad aspects of the player with no room for the good. Well, that's how people think and how people talk in social circumstances. More often than not, people WANT to hear about the bad from a new MP3 player rather than the good; it gives them a reasonable expectation of their own experiences with the device. I know that if I buy a consumer level device and have a bad experience with it, I want to tell my friends about the bad and the good takes a serious back seat to the bad experiences I had. That's so I can try to help my peers and friends avoid the same pain I went through.

      Honestly, if you can't even install the software without hitting support.microsoft.com then that's going to set a precedent among the average user. The sound quality and interface become secondary if you can't even get music onto the player without serious hassle. This reviewer just gave his opinion and his bad experiences with the software and hardware overshadowed everything else. In fact, it was some time before he could even get it to work! I agree with his point, on Christmas day the last thing I'd want to deal with is my 9 year old daughter bugging me constantly wondering why she can't use her new Zune. Of course, I don't think I'm going to spend that on her, but I see his point.

      And the comparison to Apple? Well, the average consumer knows Apple, knows iPods... and refers to every MP3 player as an iPod. I've seen them in Best Buy so the comparison is valid. Plus the comparison to the Toshiba? Well, I don't know if you've taken a close look, but the Zune *is* a Toshiba device. It's an evolutionary advance on a player that Toshiba already sells with a new button interface and wireless. So although it's a bit of a stretch, that's a valid comparison too.

      Yes, I've played with a Zune (though not the software I'll admit). I was underwhelmed. It seemed a little kludgy to me to get where I wanted in the interface (though I'll admit I am an iPod owner and therefore used to that interface), and the rubber coating reminded me of a rather disturbing green/brown sex toy. That's my personal opinion, and not to be taken as gospel, though!

    4. Re:Subjective Review by bgfay · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I was about to write a positive comment about the review and found this as the first comment. I disagree with the premise that a review has to have a good point or two listed in it. I found that the review had me thinking about all sorts of things other than just the basics of the Zune. I've read those a hundred times already, starting long before the thing saw the light of day. This review was focused not on the Zune device but on the Zune environment and in that regard it got to all the points it needed to make.

      Do I think that the review was a shill for the iPod? No. Instead, the author promoted the way of thinking used by the iPod designers and the other successful makers of digital players. The point wasn't to tell you all about how to play songs on the Zune or any of that stuff, it was to say that the method of design, the planning of the product, and the theory behind all of this is deeply flawed.

      I see in my morning newspaper, sales for the Zune. I have yet to hear one of my friends thinking about buying one. It's not because they are all addicted to the iPod, several have other types of players. But not one of them is looking for a player that gives them less control over their music. Mostly we talk about how we wish that we could easily move music between players, use wireless devices, receive radio on the iPod without an add-on, and the like. In short, we talk about ways it could be better. It seems to me and to this reviewer that Microsoft worked diligently to find ways to make the player less convenient and more locked up.

      I'll say no thanks to that design model and thank you to the reviewer for succinctly getting at an idea that I had thought of but not been able to articulate.

      --
      Yeah, I'm as old as my UID would suggest.
    5. Re:Subjective Review by NonSequor · · Score: 4, Informative
      He brought up some very serious criticisms that incline me to agree with his assessment of the device:

      • The installer failed and the tech support page directed him to install a DLL himself. An installer requiring this level of user intervention means that a significant number of Zune buyers will have severe difficulty getting the software installed.
      • The Zune does not synchronize with Windows Media Player or any other popular desktop media player. It only syncs with its own media player that has fewer features than Windows Media Player or any other popular media player.
      • The Zune uses a DRM scheme that is incompatible with Microsoft's previous DRM scheme meaning that you'll have to rebuild your music collection for the Zune.
      • The "squirting" feature is so restricted as to be essentially worthless.


      This doesn't sound like something I want.
      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    6. Re:Subjective Review by ElephanTS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You don't really know do you?

      Otherwise, it's very nice: nice big screen - better than Apple's tiddly pissy iPod screen - nice UI, and it's got WiFi.

      It's the same res as the iPod and for a portable device it's probably better to be smaller. They both can plug into a TV can't they? UI does seem nice to be, I agree, but part of a UI is what you get to interface with and the buttons are not as good as solution as the Apple wheel. It hasn't got WiFi in the sense that most people understand the term (connecting to the 'net, getting emails, etc) it's got a very limited song transfer ability.

      I think you should buy one though and find out. Go for a brown one - they're HOT!!

      --
      spoonerize "magic trackpad"
    7. Re:Subjective Review by Nf1nk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I hate replying to myself, but I got cut off midthought.

      My thought is that ms worked closly with the RIAA on this player, put decent amount of force behind it, looking to see it flop. Once it flops the next version they can tell the RIAA to kindly piss off because their ideas don't work. The next model might actauly be a good product (or the third release if they stay true to form.)

      --
      I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
    8. Re:Subjective Review by eltonito · · Score: 4, Insightful

      On the other hand, I can't stand reviews that fall into a volley of pros and cons. It creates a text-based tennis match that makes me want to vomit after a few paragraphs of indecisive rambling.

      "Sure, the software took hours of troubleshooting to get working, but once it was running it loaded files without a problem!" or "It wouldn't play any files created in the advertised to work playsforsure format, but those formats that did work sounded great."

      So, no, he didn't go out of his way to say anything nice about the unit because he had nothing nice to say. The positive things I appended to his comments weren't worth saying because the unit should do these things anyway. One would expect the software to work as designed and formats to play as advertised, so why should he tout these abilities? He shouldn't make apologies for a bad user experience. What I wonder is - did he buy the unit himself or was he supplied the unit for a review? What about other reviewers who might be doing volley reviews of the Zune? If anything, freebie product creates a positive bias that simply can't be trusted to be accurate, lest you piss off your source of free crap.

      Jalopnik did a great article about how car magazines won't slam a long term tester because of the benefits they receive by being given free cars to drive. Every "review" they publish balances each bad aspect with a good one. This is not "subjective", this is biased. A review shouldn't straddle the fence - it should go one way or the other.

    9. Re:Subjective Review by HermMunster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't agree that it is inexcusable. This is about normal for Microsoft and it is expected. Microsoft has a lot to loose on two edges of the sword.

      The first edge is about the loss to the music industry. If they can't satisfy the demands of those guys and if they violate the music industry directives (for a lack of better words) in any way they could suffer the long term. If they implement a feature that allows Zune users the ability to too freely break the rules then the end result would be lawsuits. So, Microsoft joined the ranks of the DRM nightmare inclined--and the Zune users are going to pay.

      On the second edge of the sword Microsoft has to take over the DRM industry or they will fail. Apple has that now. What I mean by the DRM industry is that they must take control of the technology that implements DRM in every household and every pocketbook. If they don't they loose to Apple and they will never gain their monopoly status in Content Rights Management (CRM).

      Bill Gates said that computers are no longer primarily used to create content, instead they are used to consume it. He knows this is the bandwagon to get up on and to ride it out. He wants total control of all content on computers and that means CRM (the software used to create it) (DRM, et al).

      DRM and CRM are the OS of protected data. Whomever controls that controls content and thus controls a lot of other markets. They can then begin to dictate things just as Apple was successfully able to dictate the price of music to the music industry. Steve Jobs was the greedy one in the pricing when that was being debated, IMHO. It is hard to see it until you recognize that he controls the DRM for 70% of the market.

      Bottom line, unless Microsoft succumbs to the music industry to start they can't get industry players on board. Unless they take over the DRM and CRM control they'll never get the music industry (or any other industry producing protected content) to come on board. Considering their blatant failure to maintain backwards compatibility one can only guess they have fallen on their own sword on this one.

      Hopefully, some realize that we can't let Microsoft get control of the DRM and become a monopoly in CRM like they did the OS. If they do then we'll have high and inflexible prices on our content as well.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    10. Re:Subjective Review by mbourgon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Once it flops the next version they can tell the RIAA to kindly piss off because their ideas don't work.

      Doubtful, if they're willing to pay the labels for each Zune sold. (Then again, that part is probably to force Apple to pay when their label contracts come up, which effectively INCREASES the leader's cost, when normally it drops.)

      --
      "Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
    11. Re:Subjective Review by ElephanTS · · Score: 4, Interesting

      About the sound quality -

      this is pretty much a non-issue nowadays. I'm a recording engineer with nearly 20 years of experience behind me and have lived and worked through the whole digital audio transition in tedious detail. At the end of the eighties most 16-bit DACs sounded like garbage - even on machines worth (at the time) several thousand dollars. Domestic CD player DACs were, to my ears, horrific at this time with a few exceptions but during the passing years things improved quite quickly. For instance, around 92-95, cheapish semi-pro devices started sounding pretty good (like portable DATs and stereo samplers) and quite quickly this became the case in domestic machines too. I became used to this fact (digital audio now sounds good!) so that when I bought a 3rd gen iPod about 3 years ago I didn't even bother check what the quality was like - I knew it was going to be good because of the general advance in chipsets available to the designers. The only thing I'd worry about is interference from electronics onto the analogue amps producing artefacts that are very quiet but annoying like hearing the HD controller work or things like that. One of the reasons I love the pod is that I've never heard that at all. So I think the review reflects this mindset - digital audio is basically good now with few exceptions.

      (Having said all this, my new Samsung phone with built-in MP3 player sounds like crap but this is I suspect because of custom chips being designed to fit a tiny form factor and too much emphasis on features rather than quality).

      --
      spoonerize "magic trackpad"
    12. Re:Subjective Review by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Zune shipped with an installer that has problems. That says nothing about the ease of use of the product itself.

      The column is aimed at consumers, not nerds. If consumers can't get the Zune working, and they can get an iPod working, in their minds, it's the Zune's fault, whether it's due to a crappy installer, or whatever.

    13. Re:Subjective Review by Knuckles · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, but it's not a reflection on "ease of use".

      If you think that getting it to work in the first place is not a part of ease-of-use then I can just pray that you will never be responsible for designing anything I will need to use.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    14. Re:Subjective Review by karnal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a follow up to your sound quality note, I wanted to state that I have tried to use several differnt PDAs as my all-in-one device. It makes perfect sense: They're powerful enough to operate as my calendar, inbox and mp3 player at work. However, with consumer level headsets (32 ohms or less) the noise coming out of the DACs on the two devices I used are horrible. (Palm TX and a Dell Axim X50V)

      I would love to continue using one or the other; and I'm told I can "increase the resistance" by modifying a cord to my headphones - this will drop the noisy hiss, however will also decrease max volume.

      Honestly, I'd rather just have a PDA with a nice DAC. (In addition, the Palm TX has the dreaded "screen whine" problem that Palm One will not fix..... they claim a 15khz buzz is not a problem. It is when you have tinnitus in one ear, man that buzz sets it off.)

      --
      Karnal
  4. What review? by danwesnor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not so much a review as a rant. Hardly any info is given about how the thing works. The software didn't install? Big deal! When I updated the firmware on my brand-new iPod 3 years ago, it bricked it. Most of the other complaints also apply to the iPod - works only with supplied software (theoretically, both players have workarounds), not compatible with other on-line stores, DRM, yada yada yada. Since most people don't actually buy from the store and rip their own CD's, maybe he could have talked about how that works for a bit. Or sound quality, or battery life, or how the UI works. But no, it's more fun and easier just to rip out a bash. Yay lazy journalists!

    1. Re:What review? by ElephanTS · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The software didn't install? Big deal!

      Odds on you're a Windows user. Not flaming but that is a big deal to the average user.

      --
      spoonerize "magic trackpad"
    2. Re:What review? by ElephanTS · · Score: 2

      Ok I understand that but we're techy people and can cope with this stuff. Most people can't and in 2006 people are less willing to have these kinds of problems than ever before. I am sorry about your bricked pod but millions of people did run those updates without hassle (I did on my gen3 machine). Having said that I have very little experience of itunes/ipod on the PC and realise that the experience doesn't seem to be as good as the OSX from anecdotal evidence.

      Q: When your pod bricked out did Apple replace it for you?

      --
      spoonerize "magic trackpad"
    3. Re:What review? by mabu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not so much a review as a rant. Hardly any info is given about how the thing works. The software didn't install? Big deal!

      On the planet where I come from, this would be a big deal.

      It's utterly amazing, amazing... how much Microsoft's shit has made people, often unknowingly, lower their standards.

      And MS fanbois in this thread think it's unfair to beat up on Microsoft. What a bunch of bullshit. If the damn product won't install on your own computer, when the same manufacturer makes the opearting system on both machines, that's beyond bad.

      It's a shame some of these youngsters weren't into computers back when they actually worked properly. When operating systems didn't need to be rebooted at random or every time you updated something, when products you bought actually lasted a little while or didn't cause you tremendous grief just to get them working. Thanks Microsoft!

    4. Re:What review? by idiot900 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most of the other complaints also apply to the iPod - works only with supplied software (theoretically, both players have workarounds), not compatible with other on-line stores, DRM, yada yada yada.

      iTunes is actually good software. Apple's music store is well-implemented. DRM is evil, but Apple does a pretty good job hiding it from you. So most people don't need or want alternatives to the Apple stuff.

      In the reviewer's opinion, the MS software, music store, and DRM issues are so bad that the ability to use alternatives would be a real selling point. At the end of the day, why would anyone spend $300 on a Zune when they could spend the same $300 on a iPod and feel like they are getting a vastly superior experience on their Windows box?

  5. You're not Andy's audience by Infonaut · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Zune can be an incredibly cool and useable device as soon as the hackers get into it and create a differen Firmware/OS for it like they did with the ipod,iriver,creative and other popular mp3 players.

    Sounds interesting, but it seems to me Andy's job is to review products as they are now, as shipped by the OEM. His reading audience isn't out to pimp their ride; they're out to get a device that does great stuff right out of the box.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  6. Wireless DRM? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Interesting
    No, the Zune's sole wireless feature is "squirting" -- I know, I know, it's Microsoft's term, not mine -- music and pictures to any other Zune device within direct Wi-Fi range. Even if the track is inherently free (like a podcast) the Zune wraps it in a DRM scheme that causes the track to self-destruct after three days or three plays, whichever comes first.

    This is daft. Is the DRM imposed by the client or the server Zune? What if a band wants to promote their music by, for example, setting up free downloads of selected tracks after a concert? Why should everything go through the Zune store? Also, is there any way to get a server other than another Zune to interface with the thing wirelessly?

    I hope this product does become popular enough for many different hacked firmwares to be released. Seems like a decent hardware with shitty firmware, but that's correctable :) - that's what I call "product support"...

    -b.

  7. Re:Funny... by damsa · · Score: 4, Informative

    At least with an Apple you can use it as a disk drive and use third party software to load it. People forget so fast that the first PC compatible iPods did not use iTunes but used Musicmatch. With the Zune you can't even mount it as a drive.

  8. Very funny review by ctid · · Score: 4, Funny
    I was reading this review with a little smile on my face until I came to this part, which caused me to LOVFL:

    "These devices are just repositories for stolen music, and they all know it," said Doug Morris, CEO of Universal Music Group. "So it's time to get paid for it."
    Well, Morris is just a big, clueless idiot, of course. Do you honestly want morons like him to have power over your music player?


    If that's not enough, the reviewer then weighs in with:

    Take the Zune's one unique and potentially ginchy feature: Wi-Fi. You see this printed on the box and you immediately think "Cool. So I can sync files from my desktop library without having to plug in a USB cable, right? Maybe even download new content directly to the device from the Internet?"

    Typical, selfish user: How does your convenience help make money for Universal? No wonder Doug despises you.


    This suggests that for your typical tech-journalist, the issue of the power of music companies and the damage it does to consumers' interests is perfectly clear. However, I don't know anything about the Chicago Sun Times - is it a big newspaper? Does this review suggest that the mainstream media in the US is ready to turn a critical eye on the music companies?

    --
    Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
    1. Re:Very funny review by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Chicago Sun Times is one of the biggest newspapers in the country. Possibly in the top three, definitely in the top ten. They are mainstream media.

      That said, Andy is a former MacWorld columnist, who often supports Apple. His viewpoint can probably be considered somewhat biased. (Not that I don't agree with him, but I am also somewhat biased.)

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
  9. I wonder if..... by Brad1138 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    a positive review for the Zune, could make it as a story on slashdot?

    --
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
  10. Cringely by Petronius.Scribe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Remember Robert X Cringely's dictum about Microsoft - the third product is always the real one. The first two are just to scope out the market.

  11. Marketing not going so well for them either by Arcturax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In every single black friday ad I got in the mail and paper and went through, Best Buy, Circuit City, Walmart, etc, not one bothered to even mention the Zune for my local stores. Most of them had the iPod on page one or two or in the hot gifts section. Their displays are kind of sad little things next to the area full of iPod gear and accessories and of course the iPod itself. One of the stores had more space for Sandisk players than the Zune. It would seem even some retailers know this is probably just going to be an expensive side shelf paperweight.

    As for the iPod, the local grocery store now carries the iPod and accessories back in the TV and Game aisle and the corner gas station had shuffles for sale next to the compact flash cards, aimed at travelers and vacationers. You just don't get more pervasive than that. Until the Zune can even near this and can branch out into other small flash based devices as well, Microsoft just isn't going anywhere with it.

    --

    --Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
    1. Re:Marketing not going so well for them either by soft_guy · · Score: 4, Funny

      One of the stores had more space for Sandisk players than the Zune.

      In their defense, Sandisk is the #2 player and they probably can actually sell some Sandisk players.

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  12. Re:Does work as a USB drive... by HairyCanary · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He could be using a Mac. On my Windows laptop, my iPod Nano is visible as USB storage. On my Mac Mini, it is only accessible by using iTunes.

  13. Consider the Source by spiritraveller · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is not a review from PCWorld. It's a writer with the Chicago Sun-Times giving advice to parents for the holiday buying season.

    The purpose of the review is not to give geeks a rundown of every single feature and whether it performs as expected. The purpose is to inform the reader about whether this is even a worthwhile product, given all the hype that surrounds it.

    The reviewer did point out other options that don't suck as much as the Zune and are cheaper. So he's done his job in giving the average consumer an idea about whether this is a worthwhile product... just as a movie reviewer in the same paper would give you an idea about whether ANYONE should consider going to a particular movie. Most movies have some demographic that might enjoy watching it... but the same is not true for technology products, which may or may not even work as expected. There were at least two features the reviewer pointed out that do not work as expected, given the way they are portrayed on the box.

    So it looks like the Zune isn't even worth considering. I'm glad that reviewer was honest enough to say so.

    1. Re:Consider the Source by vought · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The purpose of the review is not to give geeks a rundown of every single feature and whether it performs as expected. The purpose is to inform the reader about whether this is even a worthwhile product, given all the hype that surrounds it.

      Speaking of which, I'm still appalled at the number of "geeks" on Slashdot who:

      -Still think the iPod DRMs everything.
      -Conveniently forget about the fact that Microsoft has promised to DRM everything.
      -Have little, if no idea about the particular features of the most popular mp3 players.

      Every iPod thread I read, someone posts about the "iPod's DRM" - which is actually iTunes Music Store DRM. Every time I read an article about the Zune (which always mention the iPod), the flocks of people who have been waiting for something which will make their irrational Apple hatred seem warranted flock in to trumpet the Zune, despite the fact that this is the only player that applies DRM to your files without your permission.

      If we're all so up in arms about DRM, let's put our Apple/Microsoft biases aside and look at which manufacturer treats users with more respect. Does respect come from a manufacturer whose player can apply DRM to your files and whose profit margins include payments to music companies whose products you may never have purchased and may never be interested in?

  14. Re:Zune will survive. by Saige · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're right, the Zune won't be gone in 6 months, but for the completely wrong reasons.

    Zune isn't about a drive into the living room. Portable music players like the Zune aren't meant for the living room, and never have been.

    The reason it won't be gone in 6 months is that Microsoft doesn't come up with new things to get instant profit, and they don't make their choice whether or not to kill a product based on immediate consumer reaction. The company doesn't make decisions to only improve next quarter's profits, and it's idea of a long-term goal isn't 1 year away - and both of those are in constrast to 99% of corporate America. The company thinks much further ahead than that.

    What's funny is the way that people here bash other companies for only thinking about the next quarter or the next year. Then Microsoft comes along and does things with 3 year, 5 year, or even longer-term plans, and then they get bashed for the long term thinking.

    Oh, and here's a hint - the points model for payment matches up with the Xbox Live Arcade and Video marketplaces. You dump $20 worth of points into your account, and you can use those points to buy songs, buy games, and buy/rent videos. And as the points have worked so well on the Xbox, why not try them out for the Zune too? I really bet the bashing of the usage of points is more just an excuse than a real complaint.

    --
    "You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
  15. Re: lol by Agram · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Before you head bursts from an acute case of fanboy-ism, please note that sound quality-wise Creative devices have been repeatedly rated above Apple's. Why? Because Apple currently has no incentive to make things radically better (unlike its underdog competitors). Most of iPods have had incremental if not cosmetic facelifts in the recent revisions. As far as the iRiver is concerned, while its current offering is lacking, iRiver H1xx series are to this day reigning champion of features and sound quality (please notice I did not mention form factor/sex appeal/whatever). Don't believe me? Most pro-audio colleagues as well as sound connoiseurs to this day seek to buy this discontinued model due to its high quality sound output and more importantly CD-quality recording feature which includes also optical I/O. On top of that it also has a user-replaceable battery and hard drive so that you are not stuck in the "do-it-the-way-Steve/Bill-wants-you-to" wonderland.

    So, yes, an objective comparison of features (not "everyone's-got-one-so-I-ought-to-have-one-too" commmon denominator approach often used when reviewing OSs by comparing it to Windows, or as is the case here comparing an mp3 player solely to an iPod).

  16. Squirting by tocs · · Score: 2, Interesting
    As much as I don't like Microsoft I have to say that the term "squirt" as in "I will squirt some digital data over to you." predates the Zune.

    At least I read (and cringed some) at the term as found in Cory Doctorow's Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom" published in January 2003. Despite this I tend like his writing and ideas.

    This usage may appear earlier but I do not know where.

  17. Why bother to comment on a first effort by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you change the following sentence from:

    The Zune is a square wheel, a product that's so absurd and so obviously immune to success that it evokes something akin to a sense of pity.

    to:

    Windows 3.x is a square wheel, a product that's so absurd and so obviously immune to success that it evokes something akin to a sense of pity.

    You'll realize that this is just a typical Microsoft "throw something out there" first effort. It was obviously never intended to be an iPod killer, or even to be successful at any particular level. However, you can bet your MP3 player (whatever it is) that there are a bunch of someones at Microsoft reading every public comment about the Zune that they can get their eyeballs on. It's just as important to know what customers think is stupid or otherwise dislike as it is to know what they do like (they need only look at the iPod for that information.) That's Marketing 101, and if nothing else Microsoft does know how to market.

    Windows 1.x, 2.x and 3.x truly sucked at pretty much every level but at least 3.1 made a lot of money. Windows 95, for all it's many flaws made even more money, and 98+ made even more money. Don't expect anything positive for the first few years after Microsoft enters a particular market. Historically, they usually fail economically (if not technologically) at anything but operating systems and office suites anyway, but given time they could do well in the portable media player market.

    Either way, Apple had best not rest on its laurels for too long. Microsoft isn't the only competitor out there that wants a piece of the iPod pie.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    1. Re:Why bother to comment on a first effort by AddressException · · Score: 5, Informative

      Your comments about Windows are spot-on, but this time it's different.
      The market for portable music players is not the same as the preloaded OEM software "market", nor are they entering a vacuum.

      This time MS needs to make a good product that will stand on its own merits, or they'll bleed red ink until the shareholders tell 'em to quit.

  18. Yeah, and about this "squirting" thing... by Elbowgeek · · Score: 3, Funny

    That's not just bad marketing, it's a marketing showstopper. Remember Ball-buster-man's comment "You might want to squirt me pictures of your kids"? Sorry, anyone who puts squirt and kids in the same sentence should be locked up, IMHO.

    Seriously, it sounds like Ball-head-man was desperately trying to come up with a catchy name for that wifi thing the device does so badly. He's the most executron-looking dweeb I've ever seen; he typifies the image of the whole company to the yoot who buy such gadgets.

    So please Mr. Ballmer, don't squirt on me, K? Thanks...

    --
    Who is this delectable creature with an insatiable love of the dead?
  19. It's just... ugly. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I saw my first Zune a couple of days ago. It was an unattractive brown, clunky looking, and I didn't even want to bother turning it on. This is something that looks more like a Heathkit build-it-yourself than a polished commercial product. But that's almost an insult to Heathkits (okay, they weren't always pretty, but you took pride in the finished product).

  20. Re: lol by vga_init · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm aware that Apple is not the best offering in the industry, but whether we like it or not their product is so ubiquitous that the average reader in fact expects such a comparison to be made. Most people will hear about the Zune and think, "Is it better than iPod?"

    Whoever wrote the column is also very aware that his readership is thinking along these lines, so it comes as no surprise whatsoever that Apple was thrown onto the table. It's also no secret that Microsoft's Zune has been regarded as a challenge to Apple long before it was even released--they're even designed similarly.

  21. Re:Little squirter by iocat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No one has mentioned the feature that lost Zune to me: the video plays in horizontal format, but all the media listings are vertical. So you keep having to turn it 90 degrees. That sucks. How about an option to do all the listings horizontally?

    --

    Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

  22. An argument for managing software by smilinggoat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I disagree.

    I own both an iRiver iHP-120 and an Apple iPod.

    The iHP, I have to manage all my files manually. I drag over the folders into the directory I want and bingo, it's done. However, that takes time and effort. If I rip new music on to my computer, (which I do often, I'm a musician) I have to figure out what folders are already on there and which aren't. Plus because I'm on a mac, and OS X generates all sorts of hidden .files containing attributes, I have to go to the terminal and pull a find /Volumes/iRiver -name ".*" -print -delete just to remove ugly .files everywhere.

    With my iPod, all my new music I rip in iTunes is placed neatly in my music library that I don't have to look at. All I do is plug in my iPod to charge, and *poof* all my new music is updated onto the device! I don't have to take time to dick around with folders, figuring out which songs I've added since my last manual update. As a boost, all the artwork is on there too, and I'm a meticulous tagger, so everything has art.

    There are some nice benefits to the iRiver, of course, such as OGG support and a built in recorder, but over all, the iPod + iTunes experience has it beat, hands down.

  23. is that DRM really an option these days? by johnpaul191 · · Score: 2

    i really think that Microsoft, Apple, Creative, etc etc etc would prefer not to have any DRM on their devices. Apple didn't have much of anything until they started negotiations for the iTMS. iirc the only thing the iPod did was make the /music directory invisible, and there was a VERY simple fix for that. i don't know if that still holds true or not though.
    i don't 100% understand the Zune DRM (i just don't care enough to research it), but Apple's is really only on the files you buy from iTMS. on the iPod, the files themselves are not encrypted, but the device makes it harder to get them off than a regular HDD. i would think there could be a fix for this, though i never looked. i suppose maybe if Microsoft (or anyone else) dropped any association with an online store (including their own), they could do whatever they want? kind of like MP3 players were 5 years ago. i think that was only pulled off because the music industry didn't really know what MP3 players were. they were not selling in any numbers, and only the Nomad was any kind of threat (in terms of a roving pirate ship). it probably didn't sell enough to be on the radar. other players were what, 32 MB? seriously, they were tiny flash players. my friend would put a gym mix playlist on his and that would pretty much fill it. it was neat, but you paid a lot for that digital mix tape. oh how things have changed.

  24. Zune is a catastrophe by SethJohnson · · Score: 4, Funny



    The Zune is literally a marketing catastrophe. Andy I. is alerting his readers of the trainwreck it represents. He's identifying the showstoppers that make this a poor purchase. When we're talking about a $250 buy-in, it's important to warn consumers that the glitches are not minor. Even if MS got everything else right with this player, it would be something for parents to avoid purchasing if they're going to have to manually create and install .dll files on X-mas morning.

    There's no sense for Andy to discuss the finer details of weight, size, etc. The problems cancel out how superior the form factor might be over the iPod. It's like you're asking for a reporter to discuss the positive aspects of Osama Bin Laden-- "Well, he exhales carbon dioxide, which plants need for photosynthesis." Yes, I'm in agreement with Andy on this, the Zune is the Alqueda of mp3 players.

    Seth

  25. Re:Zune AD: wtf? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I think the ad is saying that Microsoft are buying batteries from Sony...

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  26. Re:Nevermind by syrinx · · Score: 2, Informative

    The 1G iPod was only 5GB and mac-only. The 2G added Windows support but the solid-state click wheel made the battery life go to hell.

    Considering I have a 1G iPod sitting right next to me that has always worked with Windows, I'm going to go ahead and say you're full of shit, but I've already noticed that from the other replies you've made to this article.

    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
  27. Re:Zune will survive. by Space+cowboy · · Score: 2, Informative

    There's usually a fee for every authorization performed as well, so it'll be a fixed cost + 3% in total.

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
  28. Christmas iPod spoiler? by phillymjs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Only from the standpoint of people receiving one who really wanted an iPod. :-)

    Trust me, the Zune won't put a dent in Apple's Christmas season iPod sales. This is not hubris talking, it's a plain fact. The thing has gotten almost uniformly bad reviews and has even been soundly mocked on CNN. Zune 1.0 is nothing for Apple to worry about. By the time Microsoft gets a worthy competitor to the current iPod out the door (if history is any guide it will be their 3rd generation Zune), Apple will have advanced the iPod further, still leaving MS at a disadvantage.

    The network effect of the iPod is probably just too great for Microsoft to ever overcome-- there are already thousands upon thousands of iPod accessories out there, and the majority of new cars now offer iPod connectivity as an option. Furthermore, it's doubtful many companies will jump to make Zune accessories in any great hurry, seeing how willing Microsoft is to abandon things at the drop of a hat when they decide what they're doing isn't working out. In short, by going up against the iPod Microsoft is learning what it's like to be a competitor to Windows, where they are the ones enjoying the network effect.

    ~Philly

  29. zune == anus by arekusu · · Score: 4, Funny

    After playing with the unit for a few minutes and being disgusted with the UI, this is what I noticed leaving the store:

    The "zune" logo on the translucent marketing material, when viewed from the back, looks a lot like "anus".

    That about sums it up.

  30. Re:Big Surprise by El+Gruga · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Have you considered that releasing products that dont work isnt the right thing to do? Because of the press influence that M$ can exert, innocent buyers get crap - thats WRONG. Secondly, did it ever cross your mind that the phrase 'iPod killer' is idiotic? This is NOT about proper analysis but more about SPIN - the jury has returned and delivered its verdict - the zune isnt a very good product, brings NOTHING new to the game, and has some serious software problems. There is no 'killer' - just a cascade of products over time, hopefully getting better. The zune will be judged over time and by its functionality at all levels. So far, its not doing too well, and to suggest that M$ is using it as a beta test is reason enough NOT to buy one. Furthermore, Microsoft is a badly managed company that has been boosted by the bandwagon of IT 'specialists' who love the fact that Windows has never worked properly - they make a lot of money by convincing the public that screwed-up systems are normal - and then charging them for repair. MS is a BAD example of how to live and work in a decent society - do you wonder that the zune isnt doing so well?

  31. Re: lol by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Most pro-audio colleagues as well as sound connoiseurs to this day seek to buy this discontinued model due to its high quality sound output and more importantly CD-quality recording feature which includes also optical I/O."

    Problem is, in the real world as soon as you say "Most pro-audio colleagues as well as sound connoisseurs" peoples' eyes glaze over and they stop listening. Most people couldn't care less about audiophiles' opinions - we have all heard way too much of their pointless (to us) droning. They're as bad as the worst of the anime fans.

    I'm not saying you don't have a point - I'm just saying that, to most people, it doesn't matter in the least.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  32. Re: formatting the SanDisk Cruzer by Glonoinha · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Q. Can I remove U3 technology from my USB drive?
    A. Yes. To remove the U3 technology from the drive, simply go to the U3 Launchpad and, under Settings, select U3 Launchpad settings and click Uninstall. This will completely remove the U3 Launchpad from the drive.

    I still won't buy a flash drive with this auto-run crap on it, simply because I don't trust them not to stealth install some spyware or rootkit or something (yea Sony, I'm looking at you) - but according to Sandisk it can be removed from the drive.

    --
    Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
  33. THE REAL PROBLEM by BWhaler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It amazes me that every review of the Zune has completely missed the point:

    In today's day and age, with always-on devices with mandatory updates, DRM, and proprietary file formats, who you buy from and trust with your memories, pictures of family and friends, music collections, videos, pictures, letters, etc., is a very, very important decision.

    Will you be able to look at the digital pictures of your child 30 years from now? Yes, we have entered that age.

    The fundamental problem with the Zune is Microsoft's lack of integrity. Not the Zune's design. Not the Zune's user interface, or anything else. The problem is the lack of character of the company behind the product.

    The Zune showed that Microsoft is more than willing to leave good, paying customers who bought 'Plays for Sure' music high-and-dry with a bleak future. And the killer is there is no practical reason for this other than to be sure they copy Apple identically and make people pay twice for the same music.

    What's worse, what happens when the whole Zune thing (inevitably) fails? Then what? Customers should expect, based on current behavior, that MS will change the format again and make you re-buy your music. How could a logical, sane person assume otherwise?

    (I know a guy, who despite my advice, bought about 2 grand of Plays for Sure music because "MIcrosoft is going to be around forever and they support their stuff." Needless to say, when he learned his music collection didn't work with his new Zune, he was at the Apple store a day later dropping 6 grand on a MBP, 30" display, nano and 5G iPod and tons of iPod accessories. Yes, one guy voting with his wallet--a fat one at that--but this guy is another data point on the tsunami that is building of CIO's, consumers, SMB customers, etc., who are sick of MS' lack of business ethics and their silly, silly games.)

    That, for me, is the kiss of death for the Zune. And it should be for all people. For it demonstrated all the lipstick Steve "We need to act like Industry Leaders" Balmer is putting on the Microsoft pig hasn't changed it's DNA. Microsoft is, and always will be, a monopolist protecting its Windows and Office franchise. At any and all costs.



    (Full disclosure: Never used Linux in my life. Nor Open Office. Use MS products daily. Don't "hate" Microsoft.
    But I can tell a person/company lacking morals and character when I see one. And I know a doomed product when I see one.)

  34. An Apple Music Label by buckhead_buddy · · Score: 2, Interesting
    SuperKendall wrote:
    If many companies try to force Apple's hand, Apple has options: 1) Promote the hell out of Indie lables and shift the whole market away from major players.

    Apple is well regarded by musicians because of their Logic and Garage Band tools. Imagine if Apple offered (as part of the song creation workflow) an iTunes "upload space" to anyone for $X per year and Y% of sales. If $X per year was low enough for weekend bands to participate, they'd be promoting iTunes purchases at their gigs in bars and bookstores rather than hauling suitcases of burned CD's to each gig! If the Y% of sales was signigicantly under the 90% that most record labels take from bands, then even serious bands would consider Apple to be financially attractive.

    As cool or frightening as this sounds though, Apple doesn't have this option because of their relationship with Apple Records. The agreements aren't fully public, but its believed that Apple Records still holds non-compete contracts with Apple (the computer company) in aspects of the music industry that overlap with what a music label does. Have you noticed that Apple avoids use of the Apple trademark in word form on their iPods in favor of the bitten fruit icon? That was an issue in one of the latest Apple vs Apple lawsuits.

    Microsoft has this "label competitor" option so they just need to throw out enough money to create a Microsoft music marketplace. In that case, no matter what deals they may have made with the major labels to get there, they can usurp the market itself by offering the "Microsoft" branded music label. That would be pretty nasty for Microsoft to partner with the market's powerhouses, then turn around, undercut, and steal their former partners' markets.

    Hmmm, perhaps Paul, Yoko, Dhani and Ringo should be offered positions on Apple's board of directors instead.

  35. "I have years of files integrated into WMP" by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "I have years of files integrated into WMP"

    The WMA format was designed with one goal, to lock you into WMP.

    It was a very obvious trap but you fell for it.

    Don't expect any sympathy...

    --
    No sig today...
  36. There is already an alternative to the big two by chibbie · · Score: 2, Informative

    You should have looked at the Creative Zen Vison M or the Creative Zen Vision W. Both support Audible and PlayForSure.

    But the best thing about these two players is their Divx and Xvid support. No need to re-convert video, like the Zune or Ipod.

  37. Blind MS loyalist. by JackAxe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From your own spew; "why doesn't the iPod use standard headphone jacks?".

    You claim to own an iPod, but yet you make a statement that is complete rubbish. To answer your question, the iPod "does" use a standard headphone jack. So are you lying about owning one?

    People like you scare me. You're willing to wade in shit, just because it's not Apple. Being blind is one thing, recognizing a good product is another. Fortunately the iPod is the rare exception that quality beat out cheap mediocricy, something MS is trying to force back upon the market. MS's player is deserving of a quick death, nothing more, nothing less. The iPod already has good competion from other players, which are also a much better alternative to the Zune.

    BTW, that cheap-bloated-FM tuner fits the Zune nicely.

  38. Re:About as "innovative" as Microsoft Bob by phillymjs · · Score: 2, Funny

    Having to marry Bill Gates is considered getting off easy?

    Maybe if the alternative punishment is having to give Ballmer a hummer.

  39. How to enable the Zune as an external drive by Aggrajag · · Score: 2, Informative

    A small registry hack so one can copy data off the Zune
    http://www.zunehack.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7

  40. Re: lol by shmlco · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ditto. And as mentioned above, using "audiophile" and "portable music player" in the same sentence is a bit absurd. Too many of us listen to music on such devices on the street, in a car, on the subway, at the gym, or at any number of other places where the ambient noise levels are going to drown out any perceived "superiority" in sound quality anyway.

    So unless you're going to record totally loseless and listen with $300 headphones in a quiet room... don't bother.

    --
    Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  41. Re:Wi-fi? Why? by GaryPatterson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A good and valuable use of Wi-Fi would be to allow users to buy music from the iTunes Music Store using only the iPod. The process would go something like this:

    * enable wireless purchasing on your iTMS account using their iPod's serial number to help avoid hackery. This is a one-off task, and should be a simple preference on the iTMS account.
    * go about your normal day, see an ad on a banana for some band, decide to try one of their tracks
    * find a hotspot
    * select 'iTunes Music Store' from the iPod's main menu
    * wait as it syncs
    * scroll through the band names looking for the one you want
    * select the band name, go into sub-menu of albums
    * select the album, go into sub-menu of songs
    * select the song and either add it to the trolley or purchase it straight away

    All of the 'find the song' work is exactly how we use the iPod to find a song, the only difference being we're in the music store and not our own collection.

    When the user next syncs to their Mac or PC, the newly purchased track is authorised on that computer and iTunes downloads it from the music store automatically (avoiding a copy from the iPod to the computer) or just copies it from the iPod.

    Wireless needs a good use or it's just a pointless gimmick. Access to the online store would be a real feature.

  42. Re:I think... by Burning+Plastic · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just ensure the copy to library (or keep library organized) option is enabled in the iTunes preferences and then just drag and drop the folder or files into iTunes... The files will be automatically be copied to the library...

    --
    [All Your Fish Are Belong To Us]
  43. Podcasts by mattpointblank · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The thing about the Zune not supporting podcasts reminds me of the newer versions of MSN Messenger. The program has a "Show what I'm listening to" feature. If you're to believe the Preferences box, it apparently only shows what you're playing in Windows Media Player. Obviously, a lot of kids these days are using iTunes and it has to support that too. I think in both instances, Microsoft tries to just deny Apple's success by removing any hard references to them. In the case of the podcast, Apple's very product name is present in the title, so by acknowledging this, Microsoft will also be acknowledging Apple's complete ownership of the digital music market. While I can understand their reasoning, I'd much sooner they gracefully admitted their inferiority (in the context of the battle for portable music players) and let me play my podcasts, than flat-out refuse to recognise their (and Apple's) contribution.

  44. Re:Some additional comments... (inc. ipod) by cpotoso · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Indeed, the fact that some MP3 players try to even obscure the files (MY files) that I put on them made me return more than one... For example the Apple Ipod. Nice player but it drove me nuts. Although I could drag and drop files to it and use it as a nice 30GB external disk, these files would not be recognized by the player itself! I could not read text files, I could not play drm-free mp3's, I could not see jpg's, I could not play mp4 videos (MY VIDEOS, not drm'd ones). The only way for this silly device to see them was to import then into itunes, which would simply scramble the file names and put the files in a hidden folder, and then I could not transfer the files to another computer in an easy way. What a stupid device. These are MY FILES and I want to use the device MY WAY. So after 6 days I simply returned the Ipod to the place I bought it (I assume at a loss to apple...). Oh, well... sad devices, indeed!

  45. Zune popularity plummeting? by Hebetsubeach · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've been watching the ranking of the black Zune on Amazon's Bestsellers list and it has been dropping like a stone since its introduction. I first saw it in the top 30, then in the top 40, top 50 and now it is down to #93. This doesn't bode well for a new product. If it was really good, it would be climbing up into the top 10. Right now there are 5 iPods in the top 10 list and iPods take up positions 1, 2 and 3. There are three other non-iPod mp3 players in the top 25. At this rate, the Zune will fall from the top 100 list soon.

  46. New Game: Spot the RIAA and/or/ Microsoft Plant by Archeopteryx · · Score: 2, Funny

    When we go to an antiwar protest, we always play "Spot The Fed" as we look for the inevitable FBI/Homeland Security plant in the crowd.

    Well, I think we need to play this game here on Slashdot!

    Who here is the RIAA plant?

    Who here is the Microsoft plant?

    You *know* they are here! Just like we knew, before we actually confirmed it, that there were Feds at the protests.

    --
    Dog is my co-pilot.
  47. Zune the latest example of Microsoft's arrogance by DECS · · Score: 2, Interesting
    As an early critic of the Zune, RoughlyDrafted caught a lot of flack, but it's delicious to watch Microsoft stumbling, not just because its a big company, but because the Zune was such a horrible, arrogant product. It was simply insulting that people were expected run to order Zune KoolAid. The company is so out of touch with reality that it thinks people will be giddy to pay hundreds of dollars for Vista, which is years late and underdelivering on its promises. Who is excited about Vista again? Who is excited about buying overpriced products from Microsoft?

    Even the Xbox 360 is hyped out of control. It barely sold 7 million units in a year--it was actually outsold by the five year old PlayStation 2, which sold 11 million units in the same time period.

    Microsoft is fooling itself; it's time for the company to get real and start competing, because its empire is declining. Remember that Apple was also making craploads of cash deep into the late Sculley Era, when it was obvious that the company was about to crash. Microsoft has shadowed Apple's brush with death, making the exact same set of moves exactly ten years after Apple.

    10 Ways Microsoft can Salvage their iPod Killer

    10 iPod vs Zune Myths

    10 More Myths of Zune Why Microsoft Can't Compete With iTunes

    Strike 3: Why Zune will Bomb this Winter

    The Two Faced Monster Inside Zune