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Air Force Jams Garage Doors
SonicSpike points us to a Chicago Tribune article reporting that in Colorado the Air Force is jamming garage doors. In a joint U.S.-Canadian operation, they were testing communications on a frequency that would be used by first responders in the event of a threat to homeland security. From the article: "But the frequency also controls an estimated 50 million garage door openers, and hundreds of residents in the area found that theirs had suddenly stopped working... Technically, the Air Force has the right to the frequency, which it began using nearly three years ago at some bases. Signals have previously interfered with garage doors near bases in Florida, Maryland, and Pennsylvania."
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
It's always important in an emergency to keep all doors closed.... Hope the emergency doesn't require evacuation.....
This happened to me on Maple Street. Caused quite a stir and a few people wound up shot in the action ... course they were commies so no harm done.
until I go out and find an F16 in the garage.
You can do many nifty things with a $10,000 screwdriver.
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
So the test was a total success. Because it proved, in undeniable public, that in the event of an emergency, the first responders around essential Air Force bases would be getting jammed by people opening their garage doors.
These tests are important. That's why I was stunned when I realized (3 years later) that on September 11, 2001, I didn't hear a single transmission of the Emergency Broadcast System. If ever there were an emergency during my lifetime that the public needed broadcasts to know what what was happening and what to do, it was multiple aerial bombings of NYC and the Pentagon. But there was nothing.
Though we'd all been taught since childhood to be always at least a little bit subconsciously afraid, but trusting the government had a system to handle even the ultimate emergency: nuclear war. And endured countless nerve-rattling drills, usually interrupting the most otherwise "relaxing" TV and radio (PBS, mostly).
I guess those weren't "tests" at all. They were the real thing: steady fear/trust propaganda. Never really expected to do anything in any kind of emergency, even survivable ones like 9/11/2001. Because they all delivered the desired result.
So maybe these Air Force tests are really failures. Because instead of keeping people irrationally afraid, yet trusting the government, they've actually woken people up.
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make install -not war
oh noooooooooo, now they'll have to get their fat asses out of their car and do the keypad instead! NOOOOO!!!! What is this, the middle ages?! Maybe some ppl will hire illegal immigrants to open their garages for them :P Then again, there's always the wireless, computer controller option :D Anyone got a driver for a USB 2.4 GHz garage door?
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
Yeah, I live in Colorado Springs and they started to test the system as it was snowing. What really was awful was that the lock on our screen door jammed the day previous so I was locked out of my house!
They shouldn't have made their openers to operate on this frequency, in the first place. It's no secret which frequencies are allocated to the US gov't. It's laziness on the part of the company.
And what occur the garge owners use their remote-control? Does this jam the Airforce frequency??
8:30 am:
"- Chief, we have fired the missile!
"- Hum, which missile?
"- Well, The Missile, ya know!
"- Ah..... Ah? Who has given that order?
"- Well, you know, Washington signals nowadays are rather mixed but I confirm the emission was on the usual frequency and has been repeated frantically in the last minutes. According to the Terrestrial Message Bluring Scheme we have had for some years now, the Message came from many locations but with the same words in it".
"- Hum... It certainly comes from the White House then. Big affair."
I am not Remy Mouton, unfortunately: http://remy.mouton.free.fr/art/
JAMMED...
Raspberry...there's only one man who DARE give me the Raspberry
Thats my excuse this weekend.
I wager these garage doors have that little notice on them, you know, the one that says "this is an FCC class B(?) device... must not interfere, must accept any such interference, blah, blah, blah...". The manufacturer can stand behind that. It's CYA compliant, probably, from a legal standpoint. It's definitely not PR compliant. I don't see this so much as a problem with the Air Force trampling on our rights, as a company that took a gamble that there would never be any powerful interference that would mess with their device. Usually there isn't.
All that aside, USAF should either stop using the frequency or offer to refund a retrofit of existing doors--whichever is cheaper. I can also foresee the mfct recalling the doors; but if they do that they probably have no recourse with the government. After all, they knew they were taking a chance by producing such a device. And then the garage door people could start using ultrasonic or infrared, with a crypto key of some kind between the receiver and transmitter to guarantee non-interference, and that would be that.
This is just another reason for me to be happy I don't have a car, nevermind a garage.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
I don't know if this one is actually true, but I've seen quite a few of these stories pop up, none of which ended up being true. In fact, our town had one, but there was no military base anywhere near, but in spite of that, the Air Force still got blamed. Just change your batteries.
There was nothing obligatory about that. And the "joke" part wasn't that accurate either.
'nuff said.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
This also happened in Ottawa in 2005. This story and this story sum up the incident. I was in Ottawa at the time, and I keenly remember the US Embassy lying to our face about using this signal. "Oddly" enough, the problem stopped once the CBC contacted the Embassy and asked them about it. Too bad those engineers didn't get to trace the signal back. What also got to me while trying to get through downtown is how the embassy is allowed to eat up a lane of traffic for their precious concrete walls, as if there was ever a real danger in Canada. I heard that those walls were tested in Canada because of the low risk, I guess it's convenient to test concrete walls and signal jamming here.
There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
I know of more than a few people due to fly out of JFK/EWR that weekend, who made it all the way to the toll tunnels into NYC and be returned...
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
I for one wish to welcome our new garage opening Overlords!
What Joke?
Please people make an effort, this posters comment is just lame!
All this "unlicensed transmitter" stuff which says basically if the thing doesn't work it's not the manufacturer's fault and it's not the FCC's fault, is nonsense.
It's as if there were an "unlicensed vehicle" exception for small devices like Segways and pogo sticks, that said "you are allowed to operate this device on interstate highways, but you are required not to interfere with big trucks and you are required to accept any interference from big trucks."
The FCC's job is--or should be--to regulate spectrum usage so that garage door openers don't interfere with the Air Force, and vice versa. I think they got distracted by Janet Jackson's nipple.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
The original article title was so negative... Hooah!
"Let me get this straight, ma'am... you actually drove _through_ your garage doors?"
"Well, they usually open pretty fast... when bits of the door started landing on the car roof, I started to realise that something had gone wrong. Is that ok?"
If they could, I'd like them to make sure that the door stays closed when the local jam band tries to get a little fresh air in on the session.
So, this is just one sacrifice that has to made in this time of war. Certainly opening up your own garage door is not too much to ask when Americans are being killed everyday overseas. It is like higher gas prices. If we are going to be at war, then everyone has to sacrifice a little.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
My spouse grew up in the 70s near Laguna Beach and the El Toro Marine Air Station in SoCal and there were regular instances of people's garage doors opening and closing as various military jets flew nearby. It was just a fact of life that people got used to from living nearby, and nobody was too bothered about it.
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According to this article, most door openers use 390 MHz, with some using 315 MHz and 372 MHz. All of these frequencies are in a band that is reserved for the federal government. For example, military aeronautical radio systems, including the backup communications system on the Space Shuttle, use the 225-400 MHz band. Any unlicensed users of this band do so at their own risk. The manufacturers of garage door openers have only themselves to blame. It's like building a house in that nice, empty artillery practice range.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I've seen this one before, and before. I'm pretty sure the story was confirmed each time, though, but that the affected range is quite small (within a few miles of the base, depending on geography).
I'm still not sure whether I believe it, of course, as I'm not being affected (nor do I know anyone that is). If you've got some articles pointing out to the urban legendness of the stories, I'm all ears. Er, eyes.
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
I think it's time we blow this scene... ..get everybody and the stuff together. Okay, three, two, one... let's jam.
Ah that explains it!
I was clicking that damn guitar icon for the last 5 minutes. I was going to give up and call Apple tech support. I'm relieved now that I know that it's the Air Force making it not work.
Unlicensed radio systems (like the garage door openers, ALL your WiFi gear, your car keyfob, etc etc, but NOT, IIRC, cell phones) operate under "FCC Part 15," widely mentioned elsewhere in this discussion. The important point in this regard is that ALL Part 15 devices operate subject to two inflexible rules: 1) you can't interfere with licensed users, and 2) it's your bad luck if licensed users interfere with you.
Unless a manufacturer of wireless gadgets wants to require every user to get a license (not an option for most gear), there is basically NO way to avoid the Part 15 restrictions; licensed users (emergency services, licensed commercial radio systems, and militery users) will always trump nonlicensed users. It won't happen often, but when it does, ya just gotta live with it.
"My strength is as the strength of ten men, for I am wired to the eyeballs on espresso."
The few basic laws of US Government budgets.
1. Funding is allocated each year.
2. All remaining funds at the end of a fiscal year are lost. (Not rolled over into the next year. This is looking at things from an office perspective.)
3. Next year's allocation is reduced from the previous years by the amount unused in the current year.
4. Allocations are divided into Products and Services (items versus contractor work).
This leaves offices in a bit of a bind at the end of the fiscal year. If they don't use all their money, they get less next year which, of course, is a situation no manager wants to have happen to their unit regardless if they need it or not. Most units use all of their services money easily as contracts typically run over a longer term and are planned for. Product budgets are harder to watch. For the first 3/4 of the fiscal year, managers are trying to scrimp and save on everything they do "just in case." At the end of the year they find themselves with leftover money. How do they spend it to keep it from getting taken away next year?
Typical draining methods of product budget allocations:
1. Transfer the money to another unit. (This helps to get big ticket items purchased and solve many problems at once. New servers? Well, we decided we didn't need them before (savings mode) but let's get the top of the line (gotta drain it! mode).
2. Buy lots of external storage drives and thumb drives.
3. Recognizing that they still need service work completed but have no more money in that fund, negotiate a contract with a company to "buy" necessary items which happen to come with "free" service. So, a $10,000 screwdriver translates into short-term facilities contract. (Most likely re-re-reconfiguring offices and cubes to make the new feel powerful.)
So while it all seems very dubious, rest assured that it is, in fact, dubious.
Unfortunately it is all necessary as well. As long as budget allocations are done on a set scale from year to year, units can never plan for things like systems upgrades (heavy spending year) versus maintenance (lighter spending year). This means each unit needs to clear their account by the end of the fiscal year to ensure they have, at some later point, almost all the money they might need for that project which will probably need to be done, maybe. (Wording is intentional.)
Look, I'm not going to take the popular road here, but CHRIST this is NOT a big sacrifice that's being asked of people. The AF is looking for a secure communications in case of a MASSIVE emergency. This isn't some podunk little thing that gets run every wed at 5pm, this is a massive attack due to natural disaster, accident (such as a petrol plant exploding) or a planned staged attack!
People are WHINING because their doors don't work.
Here's a clue, and maybe it's because of the way I was raised ("Son, get out and go open the door for your mother") or maybe it's because there are more importan things to bitch about, but "YOU DO NOT HAVE THE INNATE RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE YOUR GARAGE DOOR FROM YOUR CAR!".
There is a little thing about Life and the pursuit of happieness, but that's just a little thing some people forget about on a regular basis.
I use to live by Hanscom airforce base. Some nights, in the middle of the night, our garage door would randomly open, allowing racoons and the like inside...
Al-qaida sleeper cells can't do much damage with their car bombs if they can't get them out of the garage.
I lived near (the former) George AFB near cosmopolitan Victorville, California in 1987.
Air Force ONE visited the area once and our garage doors were unresponsive to their remotes, and at one point that week my garage door opened by itself. Periodically there would be such occurrences even when AF1 wasn't around, but the word in the neighborgood was that it was related to AF1, (and we had plenty of Zoomie types living there who would know) and I personally witnessed exactly one (possibly coincidental) occurance of that.
The base closed around 1992, and all garage door anomolies ceased.
The receivers on these units are pretty simple, though there is a bit more sophistication these days with the addition of more complex digital codes. There is little RF selectivity in the front ends. I had a pathetic "genie" type unit.
Sounds a bit like http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/radar.asp to me.
Where is the RF geek who is going to figure out exactly how much extra power you'd need to but through that jamming at say, 200 feet. Increasing the power of the transmitter through some simple mod, or soldering on an antenna connector and using something from a 1970's movie about CB's and trucks seems like the clear call of the day!
Surely someone here can do the math...
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
All your doors are belong to us!!!
(Who called? Who wants their joke back?)
spoonerize "magic trackpad"
113 years ago, such rules didn't exist.
These people are grandfathered in.
The new homeland security emergency channel which was derived from 9.11 as a way for the resquers to communicate, does interfere with remote control devices and recievers operating on a 390feq. Most of or, all of, the GDO companies have switched (within the last two years) to a 315 or simmilar feq, which is not affected. If you have a GDO that only runs on 390feq, you will need to update to a 315 feq. The govt is still doing tests on the 390 FEQ (unknown if it will be a continous loss (forever), or a loss, only if there is a emergency. People that live near airforce bases testing this emergency channel have had a total loss of useability of their remote controls or so they said.
FYI
The Govt owns ALL the feq and the companies rent or lease the FEQ they wish to use, from the govt.
"However, the spectrum is licensed by the FCC as part of the public airwaves." The FCC has no jurisdiction over government (eg military) radio/spectrum use. The National Telecommunications and Information Administration does. www.ntia.gov
And the NTIA trumps the FCC. The NTIA assigns frequency blocks to the FCC.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
Well, after 9/11 we ARE all under constant surveillance of all our phone and internet traffic, and we've lost the right to a Writ of Habeas Corpus.
Sounds to me like it's been pretty damn convenient for SOME folks and their companies.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Comment removed based on user account deletion
from the article: "The signals were coming from Cheyenne Mountain Air Station."
They must have meant to block the iris from being opened on the stargate.
For this to happen as described, garage door openers must be responding to the mere presence of a signal. Are they really that simplistic? I would have thought that they would respond only to a particular pulse sequence or code of some sort. Not only would that prevent this kind of interference, but it would prevent one person's garage door opener from interfering with the neighbor's.
Well, after 9/11 we ARE all under constant surveillance of all our phone and internet traffic, and we've lost the right to a Writ of Habeas Corpus.
Sounds to me like it's been pretty damn convenient for SOME folks and their companies.
What's the evidence for this? Can you back up any one of those statements?
if they ever find out a terrorist is about to leave his home, they can prevent it by locking his carbomb up in his own garage!
All your air force base belong to us...
I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.
"Honey? Is the garage door working? Hm.. that's odd." *click* *click* "Oh no! Get the children we're UNDER ATTACK by terrorists!!"
Everyone who has one of theese garage door openers writes the cost of a new one, including installation, off on thier taxes this April.
Problem solved.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
ALL YOUR GARAGE ARE BELONG TO BASE!
i think there's also an abbott and costello joke in there somewhere
Comment removed based on user account deletion
1: all your garage doors are belong to us
2: ???
3: Profit !
What ios the problem with an old fashionned metal key ? Maybe this is because I live in EU, but I know of next to nobody with a remote to open their garage... And I used to live in place where tehre is maybe 30 days of a sun during the year (northern coastal area: lot of rain there).
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"Are you seriously telling me you weren't concerned ... You weren't looking up in the sky for any more planes?"
It had been broadcast in short order that the airline planes were accounted for and grounding in progress. I was in Columbus, one of the "targets". I was concerned as to what it all was, but I wasn't looking "in the sky".
Your sentence fulfills the 'paranoid fantasy' aspect. Getting information, yet being paranoid.
So, who wants to build a really big garage door opener and point it at the base?
Since then, the running gag (which, apparently, is only open to those of us with three-digit IQ's) is to always "welcome" whatever kind of "overlord" the particular article refers to. It's most certainly a joke, and a good one (in a "Slashdotty" way), and one deserving of mod points (if I only had some...) And you, my friend, are an idiot.
posting A.C. because I am one.
Yeah, you were in Columbus. We were in NYC, with planes roaring out of the sky into our buildings, millions of us engulfed in clouds of toxic smoke, hundreds of thousands fleeing on foot over bridges. After the same building had almost been knocked down only 8 years earlier. With the biggest TV/radio towers blown up, the main telephone centers smoking ruins, the mobile phone system swamped. The rumors running through the panicked crowd - that's bigger than your entire city - especially some that a plane had already smashed into the Pentagon, and then that another was headed for the White House (perhaps already hitting it or Congress). That could have been mitigated by the remaining radio/TV broadcasts carrying at least a message that the authorities were in control, so the millions of people who need that reassurance didn't lose their minds in terror. A little bit of incomplete info, with a massively lethal threat already killing thousands right in your face, is the recipe for terror. That's why they do it, and exactly what the government, including its EBS, is employed to protect against.
So you were "concerned" in Columbus. Millions of New Yorkers were terrorized in an aerial attack causing mayhem that lasted all day.
'Nuff said. Except the huge amount of "Homeland Security" money you and your matchlessly corrupt state collected the past 5 years, without being a "target". Where did you get that idea from, anyway? That's not even paranoid, just selfserving fearmongering combined with complacency. While you call New Yorkers, already the damaged targets of these attacks twice, "paranoid".
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make install -not war
You have Google, don't you? It's been in the news for quite some time. What cave are you living in?
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Millions of people in New York were inconvenienced, not terrorized. How really different for most people was the immediate after affects of 9/11 compared to the most recent major power outage? Take the WTC buildings out of the equation, and not a whole lot different.
The brilliance of the 9/11 attacks was the plane attacks. No one in our civilized world was able to conceive of that mode of attack, due to our own civilities, etc. Of course, we're aware now.
Besides, every time an oil refinery or chemical plant pops a cork, thousands of people are exposed to some far nastier shit than came out of the WTC dust. One could argue that the downwinders live with it every day.
Get over yourself. 9/11 was bad, but it wasn't THAT bad.
Three thousand people dead. Toxic smoke inhaled by tens of millions for weeks. Hundreds of people jumping from the top of the burning towers to die in the fall rather than burn to death. While their families and everyone else watched in horror.
"Take the WTC buildings out of the equation"? What could possibly justify that derangement of reality?
You should come here to NYC some time and I'll explain it to you much more persuasively than your demented insensitivity allows you safely across the Internet. I'm sure the fear that is the only way a human could dismiss the horror of the actual 9/11/2001 attacks will also keep you safely in your bubble, far away from the reality of NYC.
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make install -not war
Y'know, sometimes I think they must be putting something in the US drinking water.
The mercury (thimerosal/thiomersal) used to preserve vaccines can't be helping either.
But then I look at the rest of the world and I guess most people are stupid anyway.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The Sidewinder is an air-to-air missile, to silence a source of interference they'd use a HARM.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Telling people to "just google it" smacks of intellectual laziness. It raises suspicions with regard to the veracity of the claim.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Really, what were you thinking - or smoking - when you wrote that?
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
I soldered in a new antenna (piece of wire 4x times longer than usual) and that solved my problem. I've got about 2x range (from 3 meters to approx. 10 meters) increase. At least I can now open my garage door without getting out of the car.
PS I am in California.
Except, of course, for Tom Clancy, anybody who read Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor, numerous CIA analysts who predicted that mode of attack, numerous CIA analysts who reviewed captured al-Qaeda plans for such an attack, and any student of World War II in the Pacific.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
"Mayhem that lasted all day."
Was there rioting? Looting? A complete breakdown in public services? Were people evacuated from the city and relocated to neighboring states? Why don't you tell the people of Los Angeles or New Orleans how bad you had it.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
"Habeas corpus was abolished and the US is wiretapping all our phones" is old news, just like "New Orleans was almost destroyed by a hurricane a couple years back". If you don't know about something that was widely publicized, even on Slashdot, the onus is on you to educate yourself.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
You think this is a competition? You want to turn this into some kind of intramural sport, or think that this is some kind of whining?
FYI, I lived in New Orleans until 2003, and personally handled the evacuation of an entire family from the Katrina Flood. I was back in NO before even a fraction had moved back, working on reconstruction. And have been back several times.
What the hell have you done to help? Where were you during the various catastrophes in LA/NO/NYC/DC? What the hell makes you think you have anything to say about mayhem? You saw something on TV, and think you know what you're talking about?
You obviously don't. Keep your gibberish to yourself when there are serious issues for people with some actual perspective to discuss. Or try telling your crap to my neighbors in NYC, like the firehouse in my block. This is like some kind of videogame to you, isn't it?
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make install -not war
I think you're trying to claim that because you were in New York at the time of the attack, your personal judgment of the situation should outweigh the actual evidence. Within the past six years, we've had an entire city almost destroyed by hurricane, an entire ocean coastline devastated by tsunami, a nation the size of California impoverished by two foreign invasions, a decade of economic sanctions, and an ongoing civil war, an ongoing genocide, an ongoing intifada, and countless wars. You, sir, do not know the meaning of the word "mayhem". Getting the rest of the day off from work does not compare with what millions of people have gone through, whether because of natural disaster or because of self-righteous pricks like you.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
No, I'm saying that you're a braying jackass who's calling 3000 people killed, millions terrorized and breathing toxic smoke, and other mayhem "a day off from work".
And you're dragging out any number of other scenes of mayhem to justify your total inaction except to downplay that disaster.
Don't call me "sir", you hypocritical cunt. You have done nothing to help anyone with anything, and have said the kinds of stupid shit that get people beat to a pulp here in NYC, if they're insane enough to try saying it. But you will do it again, safely removed at the end of your Internet wire from any consequences.
I'll call you out again on my question of what the hell you have ever done to help any of those disasters, that makes you think you can rattle them off to minimize the damage of one of them. What have you done, other than type bullshit at me?
Before you reply with more asinine trash, go do something useful for at least one of the catastrophes you're invoking as if you have any right to their pain. While I have lived through several of those disasters personally, as have my friends and family, and done other personal actions to help mitigate most of the others you think you can itemize as if you have anything to do with them.
Then don't bother replying. You have nothing to teach anyone about selfrighteousness except a bad example of it.
Vile scumbag. You're beneath contempt. You won't even get any more of that from me. Abandonment to your own corrosive delusion is all you deserve.
--
make install -not war
So New Yorkers are short-tempered people who leap to violence as their first response to perceived sacrilege? And you're surprised I'm not falling all over myself to feel sorry for you pricks? You've threatened violence before. I think you have enough information on me that you could track me down and physically harm me, if you wanted to. Until you do that, you're no less a coward as I am, sir.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
There's a little piece of paper that comes with every piece of electronic equipment that says that by using that particular device, you understand that you must accept any interference that is generated that may cause the device to operate incorrectly. This would include these interferences. Most people throw that piece of paper away without thinking anything about it, and then raise cain when their nifty new toy doesn't work right.
Have you seen the Wall Street Journal in the past 4 years?
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
So I take it that means that you DON'T have any proof?
I guess kids just aren't joining debate clubs like they used to.. it's kind of a shame.
So I take it that means that you DON'T have any proof to back up a single one of those assertions? If you do, I'd be more than glad to take a look at it, but I have no idea what you're talking about until then.
Well, if you're incapable of reading the Wall Street Journal and drawing your own conclusions, it's not my problem.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Man, do you realize how pathetic that sounds? I find it amusing that I put up a post asking for evidence, and every person that has responded has been like "WHAT AN IDIOT! CAN'T YOU SEE IT ALL AROUND YOU!" etc etc.
Fortunately, that's the good thing about evidence--it means something, rather than rabid lunatic claims that can't be supported by anything other delusional fancy.
I'm going on the record claiming that there are little green men ALL around us, and if you make claims to the contrary, well OPEN UP YOUR EYES MAN, the evidence is all around you.
I suppose if I made SPECIFIC CLAIMS OR CHARGES, providing evidence would be my burden, sure.
However, such a broad, sweeping generalized comment, as I made, doesn't lend itself to an enumeration of the charges and evidence, does it?
No.
So I wonder what you agenda is, to miscast my comment as a more specific claim? Are you working off of prepared talking points and didn't BOTHER to actually think if they were applicable to my statements? It would seem not.
But hey, you're on a roll, and the actual facts don't really matter, do they?
If you want claims and evidence, although this is off topic, take a read through Elizabeth de la Vegas hypothetical indictment of Bush et. al.: http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=143205
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Actually, you didn't at all make a broad, sweeping, or generalized comment. If you feel that I missed your sweeping broad whatever comment, please show it to me, because I can't find it.. In case you forgot what you said, here it is:
Your first statement:
"Well, after 9/11 we ARE all under constant surveillance of all our phone and internet traffic,"
Your claim: After 9/11 (and ergo, not before) everyone (assumed in the US) is under constant survillenace of all our phone and internet traffic.
I'm looking for any evidence to back this up. This is a very straightforward claim, and has nothing to do with the Iraq war, foreign policy, etc. I scanned the link you sent and saw nothing relevant to what you posted. So, let's see the evidence.
Your second claim:
"and we've lost the right to a Writ of Habeas Corpus."
Again, let's see the evidence. Your link didn't include any discussion of habeas corpus. This is a very straightforward and SPECIFIC claim, let's see the evidence.
"Sounds to me like it's been pretty damn convenient for SOME folks and their companies."
I'm not really sure where this came from, but it sounds like you're claiming that this alleged increase of online surveillance and the alleged suspension of habeas corpus is assumed to be convenient for some folks and their companies? Who exactly?
I'm also baffled by your statement on "talking points" -- what "talking points" did i use? I'm not sure you understand what talking points are, because saying "can I see the facts behind your statement" is NOT a talking point.
You then say that (to me?) the "actual facts don't really matter" -- but that's exactly what I'm asking for, I'm asking for facts, and you've so far been totally unable to provide them.
"I'm looking for any evidence to back this up. This is a very straightforward claim, and has nothing to do with the Iraq war, foreign policy, etc. I scanned the link you sent and saw nothing relevant to what you posted. So, let's see the evidence."
Go read the documents in EFF v. AT&T.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Let me get this straight--you cherry pick one of your three claims (I assume that means you are conceding your other ludicrous statements?) and use as your primary evidence a dismissed court case that never made it to trial--mere allegations? The program that amongst many others, Democrat Lanny Davis praised for its impressive safeguards and the length the program went to protect privacy.
I'm curious what exactly YOU know about any NSA program that the Privacy and Civil Liberties Board doesn't?
As a side note, it's always fascinating to me when people who claim to believe in innocence before being proved guilty will go to any length and any amount of spurious evidence to "convict" those who disagree with them.
Weren't you the one who asked for documentation of domestic spying?
So I told you to go read the documentation for EFF v. AT&T.
When you've completed the homework you asked for, we can continue with your trolling.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
You think an untried, dismissed allegation is evidence?
Well if you believe that people should be tried according to those rules, then I guess that's why you would portray me, asking for facts, as a troll.
When was EFF v. AT&T Dismissed?
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
... will be very very happy to sell you another one.
What else can you do? Stop using the door?
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
I'll prove it as soon as you prove to me that Hurricane Katrina happened. Until then, you're missing the point.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
If you're talking about Hepting v. AT&T you're correct.
Something more recent than the July 20th decision by the judge to let the case move forward?
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
No--you're correct, I was thinking of a different case.
reassuring to see the case grind through the cogs of justice?