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Microsoft Says PS3 Linux Not 'Competitive' To XNA
nz17 writes "Gamasutra has a preview of its upcoming interview with Dave Mitchell, Director of Marketing for Microsoft's Game Developer Group. In the interview Mitchell dismisses Linux on the PS3 as a game creators' solution and has said, 'What we [at XBox] are focused on doing is providing great tools at a free or low price point that are going to enable consumers to be absolutely successful at creating games for both the Windows and the Xbox 360 platforms.'"
Sad as it might sound, he could very well be right. Although linux may be very nice as a development tool, XNA is here and now, and already has hardware access, and is very affordable. No matter how much people may hate Microsoft, this is very possibly a good tool for indie game developers who want to create a console experience.
I've been using XNA for a while, and it's really a good effort by Microsoft. Easy to develop with, and exposes a pretty nice amount of the graphics and audio hardware. Compare this to PS3 Linux, which apparently doesn't even have accelerated 3D, and it's hard to argue with him - what Net Yaroze was a couple generations ago is now XNA - and much cheaper to boot.
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
I see Linux on the PS3 more as an opportunity to get a cheap cell cluster than for game developement.
It may also be an excuse for Sony to avoid customs fees, because now the PS3 is a usable Computer as
compared to just a video game.
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
Considering Linux PS3 is missing a 3D accelerated video driver. What are they coming out with next, an LCD without a backlight?
Hey, look! It's Bono's brother.
PS3 Linux is an effort to sell PS3 as a computer. It has only access to framebuffer, without any hardware accelerated 3d support.
:)
XNA is a game development platform working on both Windows and XBOX360.
Which would be better for Game Developers?
about Microsoft, but this is one thing they have *always* gotten. Providing excellent tools and 3rd party developers has been one of the main reasons they have been so successful over the years. It's nice to see they haven't forgotten that.
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
Can you please clarify how XNA is leveraging a dominant position in Office to provide game-creation tools for the Xbox 360?
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
Well, the reason linux can't access the video chip in the PS3 is because Sony locked it out. I don't know that there is a way around it. If there is, I'm sure somebody will find it. But that's a limitation that Sony put in, not one of drivers or linux itself.
11 was a racehorse
12 was 12
1111 Race
12112
It's more robust than that.
.FBX format, which can be exported by tools such as 3D Studio Max and its free cousin, GMax. The .X format is text-based and very straightforward, so it is easy for other modelling software companies to add support for the format, and some free file translators are already available."
.NET frameworks and the lower-level game interfaces such as DirectX. Programmers call routines in the XNA game library that activate 3D screen modes, create polygons, paint textures on 3D meshes, play sounds, and interface with control devices such as joysticks or the Xbox 360 game controller."
From the FAQ:
"The XNA Framework Content Pipeline, a set of tools that allow developers to more easily incorporate 3D content into their games"
From an Ars Technica Article:
"3D models come in a dizzying variety of formats, depending on what tool has been used to create them. In order to make it easier for developers to create their own content, Microsoft has announced that SoftImage has added support for the XNA's native ".X" format to their Mod Tool 4.2 software, a free version of the company's popular 3D modelling program. In addition, the XNA software supports the Autodesk
From the same article:
"Microsoft hopes to help by providing subscribers to the XNA service access to the "XNA Creators Club," which includes a large database of free 2D and 3D art, models, and textures. Developers can use these assets as-is free of charge in developing their own games, or modify them to suit their purposes."
Again, from Ars Technica:
"XNA acts as a bridge between the
http://arstechnica.com/articles/xna.ars/1
http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/
Let's all work together to bust the FUD.
Yep, it's been confirmed by Sony just a few days ago that at least for the moment RSX was locked out of PS3 Linux because of security concerns. That's a big disappointment, but it looks like the framebuffer device will be fast enough for HD videos. It's "just" a matter of someone optimizing ffmpeg for Cell I guess.
For games though, it's a bad news. Let's hope Sony will update the hypervisor to allow RSX access for Linux.
HAHA! BSOD! HAHA!
Seriously. 1999 called and they want their joke back.
XNA Framework and XNA Game Studio Express
o rumID=882&SiteID=1 - MSDN Forums
http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/ - FAQ
http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?F
Don't worry if you're a kleptomaniac, you can always take something for it.
As the target of XNA seems to be both the professional and the home-brew-market, can the Free Software camp beat this? Well, we already have quite a few game libraries, heaps of engines and a number of IDEs. I'm not aware of any FOSS-'game asset pipeline management tools', and targetting consoles (outside of the Linux-on-the-* projects) has always been something for the big players due to licensing fees.
What is interesting is their idea of having various 'starter kits' for certain types of games (FPS, RTS, platform), all using a common framework. Using them you could quickly get nice results. Is anyone aware of similar FOSS-projects? Might be interesting to build something similar on top of pygame.
This sig is intentionally left blank
Would it be possible to start developing XB360MC with XNA and if it is does it cost anything?
It is interesting to see the Microsoft PR get out there and compare XNA on XBOX360 to Linux on PS3. Of course, if you are going to make this comparison, you had better play up your strengths (easy game creation) and ignore there rest (full operating system, full development suite, lots of libraries available). Restricted to game development, the comparison is probably fair - for the fledging game developer who already has an XBOX 360, XNA probably allows them to put a game together fairly easily, certainly compared with taking a huge and diverse tool kit like a Linux install.
What this PR totally ignores is that XNA allows you to make games. Linux allows you to do whatever you want to do. If you are into game development on Linux and you want something to create games, then a port of Blender to the PS3 and the Blender Game Engine would probably be of most use to you. Or you could use the SDL libraries to get a start on some 2D stuff. Or you could play around with the Quake 1/2/3 source code and try and use that. Or wait for the GP2X games to get ported over. Or you could build a multimedia box. Or a fortune reader!
So, the comparison XNA/XBOX 360 is better than Linux/PS3 is deeply flawed. It may be true (for now) from one angle. It just isn't the whole story.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
I'm very happy with developing small games for the Linux platform. SDL is just perfect to write a game that works on Linux, Windows, Windows CE, BeOS, MacOS, Mac OS X, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, BSD/OS, Solaris, IRIX, and QNX. And unofficially supports AmigaOS, Dreamcast, Atari, AIX, OSF/Tru64, RISC OS, SymbianOS, and OS/2(Copied and pasted from libsdl.org). Additionally OpenGL actually supports software rendering so a GPU isn't exactly needed. Super Mario 64 shouldn't have a problem running in software on a Cell. With some skills in googling one can find superb tutorials of how to make a pong game in just a few hours. Of course it's required that you understand the basics of programming. But the great thing about this is that you can actually make games that everyone can play. A lot of users will think XNA is great just because they don't know about the alternatives or think the alternatives just suck. The market in Africa is mine, because my games works perfect with One Laptop Per Child PC's for $100 =)
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
The single, solitary, lone reason I own an XBOX is for XBOX Media Center. Nothing else comes close to the TiVo-like integration and Firefox-like expandability.
Unfortunately, the built-in 733Mhz. processor is the limiting factor. Friendtech used to sell a 1.4Ghz. Celeron upgrade, but they don't offer it any longer (if anyone has one of these systems, by the way, I'd be happy to buy it off you). At this point, the XBMC developers are looking at ways to use the onboard GPU to do some of the calculations and take all the heat off the CPU, but this is like looking for breadcrumbs when right next door is a fully stocked kitchen pantry (XBOX 360 or PS3). Instead of wasting time developing for a platform that's basically a dead-end, they could be working on a system that will be able to handle HD content by design.
Would developers have to port MPLAYER to C# in order for this to work? It sounds like the PS3 is a lost cause until someone can whip up some Linux drivers for the graphics system. Does Microsoft have similar restrictions to the hardware?
I prefer Java/Eclipse personally to C#/VStudio, but XNA seems to be offering a good opportunity for Indies. Other than Beta1 to Beta2 transition, I've been impressed with the XNA team. I loaded my game on to a XB360 earlier this week and it was amazingly painless. A 'duh' issue where some content files were missing, but only had to do a few minor code changes. An hour later my game was running on an Xbox360! It's hard to believe that Microsoft managed to put such a solid product out. They did it with a very small team, which is why it is only VStudio Express and C# are supported right now. It's nothing like the bloated behemoth that Windows OS development has become. Other coolness is that Remote Debugging works, and works well. I've never had remote debug in hardware or software that worked so painlessly. Create the PC-360 link, start debug, play on the 360, and watched variables will update, you can insert breakpoints on the fly, step through, all that jazz without any problems at all.
More than likely, yes.
It is like comparing DirectX to WinCE. One is a API that ogranizes various OS functions in away to facilitate creating of media content. The other is Operating System level for user processes to build any application on. Although one can build a game without XNA/DirectX right on the OS(WinCE/Linux), it isn't as pleasant or extendable. You can't build a device driver in XNA. It is much more "hands on" to OpenGL routines with just the OS and GL/GLX let alone a make a full blown game.
There appears to be different goals between XNA and PS3 Linux. I would fully expect toy games from XNA while on PS3 Linux I expect more toy apps. Keep in mind that neither of these are for serious product development. If you or your company want to make a real product for XBox 360 or PS3 you need a different set of hardware and software tools.
This morning I was asked, "should we buy a PS2, or a PS3 for the children?" Wii, Xbox, and PS3 all have price tags that are a little to pricey for this Santa. From my view point, I cannot see homework completed using the Xbox, or the PS3; But the notion is intriguing. It boils down to game title, and compatibility. Microsoft is doing to consumers what IBM did to consumers using Microsoft; That still leaves a bad taste in my mouth,(In both cases). I think it is only a matter of time before Sony realizes that access to their entire box via Linux will finally allow some curiously entertaining games and applications to be created. I can plug my laptop into my LCD TV, same for the game boxes; So which has the better graphics, and feed back? It looks like this Santa has a trip to Fry's, Best Buy, and the Toy Be Us folks; Today.
1) I would expect MS to sell a solution that works with their own proprietary software. It has the advantage of running on windows PCs and the 360. You might note that there are a couple 360s and Windows PCs in existance, so it has the advantage of working with the largest slice of the pie.
2) Porting a driver won't do you a whole lot of good if your linux distro is running in a hypervisor that controls access to the RSX.
"The Nvidia graphics card is not supported beyond framebuffer mode. This does not reduce the quality of the image, but does not provide accelerated video nor OpenGL support. Refer to the this HOWTO for information about HDMI, Multi-Out and associated TV/Monitor connections." From here.
That protection will be circumvented eventually, but they Sony will release a new firmware (think PSP ) that closes that hole. So, no, PS3 linux isn't competitive with MS XNA.
Well, if you figure that the Xbox 360 is 1 year into a 4 year lift span, it's 25% over (if it really sells well, it'll get a fifth year, overlapping with the Xbox-3). Getting XNA games out now, for hobbyists, let's them tweak and expand their development tools, get paid doing it (the subscription fee probably covers the cost of supporting the project, not much of a profit center, but should make it a bottomless pit of costs), and does so without the expectation of the pro shops.
The big development shops wouldn't tolerate things being imperfect, hobbyists will. For the next generation, expect some XNA derived system to be one of the main development environments for the console.
There is a long tail effect with gaming. People buy consoles for the oddest reasons. If you are a niche system like the Xbox was last round (people wanting HD games, or the absolute most powerful system, not looking for bulk of games like the PS2 was), you can suffer. If you are a shop making an innovative game, that won't sell HUGE numbers, only the PS2 had the volume (unless you were using a Nintendo character license, then the Gamecube was a compelling system) to sell.
Things like puzzle games are popular, light on the graphics, and can be implemented cheaply. If Microsoft figures out a way to sell $20 games online (taking $5-6 as the publisher cut) without involving retailers, then independents will flock to the system, Microsoft will make tons of money, and they'll position themselves for huge market-share gains.
However, the XNA, at this point in the Xbox 360's lifespan, is simply a test. Real development houses with 1-year + dev cycles wouldn't adopt a new system now, but hobbyists and indies will, and what works will roll into the Xbox-3's dev kit.
Alex
At first, I thought ps3 and linux was a clear cut genius move by sony, and I couldn't wait to get my hands on a ps3 just to enjoy all the linux goodness. That feeling is now all but gone, since I found out yesterday that sony will not open up access to the rsx, which means no graphical acceleration.
Last I checked the "open" cell api was no where near complete either, at least when it came to documentation.
The reason that sony chose linux too is actually completely clear to me, it completely nullifies the possibility of pirating ps3 games (although ps2/ps1 and other consoles via emulation would have been possible had they released the rsx spec). I highly doubt that ps3 games can realistically be run withing a linux system with any loader.
So the choice of linux was made to prevent any possible competition in the profitable game industry/piracy while pretending to care about open source.
Microsoft on the other hand, doesnt give a crap about open source, and they've released a very easy to program platform, which I believe is based on managed direct x which is probably the easiest 3D api available. They have given the little game designers the possibility of actually creating games cross platform that they can profit off of.
Overall, I think microsoft does win this round, because they are allowing game developers to build just that, games for the xbox 360, while sony is allowing all software except games, and they refuse to support linux fully which makes the whole endeavor nearly useless.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
You can't build general software with XNA. It's tuned for games. It's also only really useful to anyone with a Creator's Club membership.
You CAN build general software on PS3 Linux. It's not tuned specifically for any one purpose. It's useful to anyone, anywhere, anytime, and doesn't require additional investment to share in its benefits.
Of course it's not a competitive solution. THERE IS NO CONTEST.
grey wolf
LET FORTRAN DIE!
i fail to understand your argument. the cell is a processor. it does not require a significant license fee if you wish to program an application to utiliize the cell under linux. microsoft on the other hand is charging you for the ability to run your code on the xbox360. you are "forced" [your term] into using their platforms for development. [c#, windows, "XNA", directx]
the only time you pay sony anything is if you wish to purchase a developers' license. if you really want a dev kit, using linux on the ps3 shouldnt even enter your mind; your aims are larger than the scope of the commercial console.
if your argument was against sony's lock out of graphics acceleration i could understand, but microsoft is slightly more guilty of locking users into a proprietary dev kit here. at $99/ year for XNA, you quickly top and exceed the ps3 price tag within two years; thats before you take into account any additional xbox360 features you may want [hd-dvd, additional controllers, wireless, xbox live gold, headsets... etc]