Microsoft Says PS3 Linux Not 'Competitive' To XNA

nz17 writes "Gamasutra has a preview of its upcoming interview with Dave Mitchell, Director of Marketing for Microsoft's Game Developer Group. In the interview Mitchell dismisses Linux on the PS3 as a game creators' solution and has said, 'What we [at XBox] are focused on doing is providing great tools at a free or low price point that are going to enable consumers to be absolutely successful at creating games for both the Windows and the Xbox 360 platforms.'"

Comments

He may be right

[Blikkie]

Sad as it might sound, he could very well be right. Although linux may be very nice as a development tool, XNA is here and now, and already has hardware access, and is very affordable. No matter how much people may hate Microsoft, this is very possibly a good tool for indie game developers who want to create a console experience.

Re:He may be right

[Zero Degrez]

No. To everything.

XNA is an input and graphics interface wrapper, like Direct X but sits 1 tier higher. It also provides some objects to store typical things every game engine designer has to write for a new game engine so that you don't need to reinvent the wheel. It is NOT a template for 2D games. XNA is NOT a game engine. There is NO restriction on art content. You can include whatever models and textures you want. It's even a piece of cake to include vector and pixel shaders.

In fact, the demo game provided with XNA is a 3D game. Styled like the old spacewars games. 3D and 2D are both easily doable on XNA. Why you may be seeing more 2D than 3D is simple. Indie game developers are not often artists, and it is far simpler to create a 45x45 animated gif of a player, than it is a 2 million polygon, parallax and normal mapped, skeletal player model. Not that 3D art needs to be nearly that complex...but in a 2D world, people don't expect the things they have become accustomed to after all the triple-A game titles, with the budget of a small Hollywood movie.

If you indeed did "look into it" you saw a few screenshots and derived your judgment solely from that.

Re:He may be right

[westlake]

I'm not sure how much you know about XNA, but i have looked into it a bit. What it looks like to me is just a template for 2D, mostly side-scrolling games.

Not so.

In this entry-level XNA turtorial you build a 3D Flight Simulator: XNA Tutorial using C# > Series 2: Flightsim

Re:He may be right

[kjart]

I suppose it depends on want you intend to do with Linux when you get it. Yes you can write games (+ play an enormous number already written), but you could also use Linux for MythTV, VLC, web browsing, email, or any other use imaginable. Where the PS3 Linux sucks is the video driver is a frame buffer, however I believe that if you dedicated a handful of SPUs on the backside of Mesa that the performance would be pretty good.

That's his point - XNA is all about game development and the PS3 thing isn't that focused and isn't really "in the same vein" (to quote the article).

Besides XNA has drawbacks even for writing games. a) It uses .NET, thereby hobbling its performance, b) you have to PAY to publish your games c) You have to PAY to see and play them d) You don't get paid for either. To me it looks more like vanity publishing than a legitimate means of encouraging games development.

Well:
a) There is a fairly impressive demo on what you can do visible in this video from channel9. Performance seems pretty nice to be. Would it be faster if this was all in C/C++? Probably - but this is meant to be widely accessible.
b)Yes, it's a $99 USD a year fee to publish your content to the Xbox right now and only people with a similar subscription will be able to access it. However, according to the article, the sharing of these homebrew creations is one of the things they will be working on. I for one can't wait for the day when I can login to a special section of Xbox live to browse through all the user created games (pretty much suggested at one point in the video I linked to above).
c)See above.
d)I'm sure this isn't far away either. As a developer I would love to be able to create the next killer Xbox arcade game or whatever and be able to sell it for a few bucks on Xbox live. As Microsoft I'd love to be able to have developers doing this so I could take a cut (i.e. as a the publisher, etc) and to drive interest in the console. I can't recall reading about this, but I imagine it must be on the horizon at some point.

Re:He may be right

[drinkypoo]

He is right, but not for the reasons you mention. He's right because the PS3 solution prevents you from utilizing all of the hardware in the system to its fullest. If I wanted a crippled solution, I could have got the linux kit for the PS2. I didn't, so I didn't. If I wanted to support DRM and rootkits, I could buy a PS3... but that's just my reason. Many other people will avoid it as a game creation platform because you don't get access to all the hardware.

Re:He may be right

[drinkypoo]

I think it's really a matter of time before we see OpenGL for RSX or at least some form of driver layer out of Sony or NVidia for PS3.

The theory today is that the system runs in the hypervisor which prevents you from accessing all of the graphics hardware, so ultimately unless Sony changes their mind about that (unlikely but, I suppose, not impossible) you will need to dedicate one or more SPEs to doing 3d graphics work. This means you won't be able to use them for other things, and the PPE in the cell is a very slow PowerPC in modern terms so if you can't use the SPEs, you're stuck with the slow-ass PPE, and frankly you might as well go back to the Xbox, not even the 360.

Re:He may be right

[cptgrudge]

I pretty much came to the same conclusions as to what I think Microsoft should do, but I'm not sure if that's what they will do. It may not be the same, but there's the whole Xbox Media Center thing that Microsoft has not taken advantage of. I have this app installed on my softmodded Xbox.

As one legend goes, somebody showed XBMC to Bill Gates, and he said "Why the hell don't we have anything like this?" (Although this is probably closer to reality.) It would be super simple to make an app like this for the Xbox360, but none has appeared. Instead, Microsoft tries to leverage XP Media Center and hardware addons to the Xbox360. This is bullshit. Give me a simple app, loaded with codecs, with the ability to connect to a Windows/Samba share. That's it. Many are already connected to a network for Live and we don't need a computer to "stream" from; just a slow computer with enough disk space and I/O. Microsoft doesn't seem to realize just how close it could come to being the central hub of the living room if they offered this. I would be getting an Xbox360 in a heartbeat, but instead, I'm looking for another used Xbox for the living room and debating over getting a Wii.

But what could their reasons possibly be? Most likely extraordinary pressure from the MPAA-like organizations that want to make sure DRM is included and all sorts of fail-safes are there to ensure the continuation of their business model, so Microsoft instead . Their XNA studio ultimately may come to pass in a similar fashion, although there are differences. Microsoft does not want to upset the traditional publishers into abandoning its console when the players suddenly choose a $10 downloadable game from Live Arcade, which may offer the better gameplay per buck over a $60 store bought game.

In the end, it comes down to risks. Microsoft could easily create (or hire someone to create) an exact XBMC work-alike for the Xbox360. Would more people buy the Xbox360? Probably. But will enough people buy the XBMC clone (and indirectly, additional games/content) to make up for lost revenue in other areas? My guess is "yes", but Microsoft may not want to risk royally pissing off media companies with such a figurative middle finger. We all see how they are trying to appease them with the associated Zune actions.

That said, I think Microsoft does see the potential here with the homebrew community for themselves and the consumer and I hope they decide to take the risks to bring such choices to the their customers.

Re:He may be right

[whoop]

"Innovation" doesn't equate to yet another Doom/Halo/etc. Independent developers, one or two person groups, can make some fun, innovative games that don't require a few hundred thousand dollars of textures and high-def graphics. Puzzle games are one area for some good time-wasting, fun games. Not many people will pay $60 for yet-another-tetris-clone. Meteos on the Nintendo DS is a great little game. Some simple, addictive game could rake in a lot for a small-timer at $10 or so a pop. Big studios won't waste their developers' time on something like that, when they can go for the huge mega-hits.

Homebrew/small-time dev kits can be a great boon for all the consoles. They are all having more online content, ways of downloading games. Just extend it this last bit further.

Re:He may be right

[eples]

XNA is here and now, and already has hardware access, and is very affordable

It doesn't have great hardware support. You're not permitted to use the USB connections or wireless at all. The only input for an XNA-built game is through the gamepad.

Microsoft totally shitted on my parade with that one. And then, to top it off, when I asked about the above limitation everyone acted like I told them Santa doesn't exist. "nothing to see here...move along.." Whatever.

Re:He may be right

[pokemonkiller]

Sorry, XNA is NOT here and now.

XNA Express is currently here, yes. But can you distribute a game with it? Not really. With an XNA developer account on the XBox 360 you can load in your XNA project and play it. The only way ANYONE else can play your "masterpiece", is to also have an XNA developer account.

They are working a Pro version which will allow for simple distribution path(s) but that is NOT here and NOT now.

Re:He may be right

[NotNormal23224]

Actually I have seen what XNA can do, one of the included games is XNA racer a fully 3D drivng game rendered in 1080P here's a clip of an earlier build running at 720P: http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/xna/clips-xna-racer-p review-213594.php so I guess this kills the whole 2D side scrollers FUD argument huh?

Re:He may be right

[Nappa48]

One big reason as to why the "logging on to Live and seeing user-created content" won't happen is all down to one simple reason: it will take away from actual game developers. Thats why its solely tied in with the Creator Club thing, they don't want something like this to be BIG big, but big enough to inspire software developers/indie games developers into full-time game development. I mean look at Geometry Wars, that was (and still is) a very popular game, i remember even seeing on a forum that someone would get it simply to play that (no lies! honestly said that after he played it on his friends) I'm honestly not sure where Microsoft are going, they have been making too many contradictions that my mind has gave up following them. First 1080p doesn't matter, "hay guys, look what we can do!", then bringing down Sonys attempts at running Linux for user-created content, now they are doing it. ARGH! MY HEAD!

Re:He may be right

[Nappa48]

oh crap i didn't think this ignored spacing, i guess it DOES require using BR tags.

Re:He may be right

[Enucite]

(I don't have experience with XBMC, so please excuse me if I'm missing the point)

Everything you're talking about sounds like what I already do on my 360 through TVersity, and to a lesser extent Zune.

Zune will let you stream anything in your media library to the Xbox 360. TVersity goes one step further and converts any file in your library to an Xbox-compatible format, and will automatically download & stream RSS video/audio feeds. I usually stream music directly from Zune, and movies/video with TVersity.

Yes, you aren't storing it directly on the Xbox like you could with XBMC, however I believe anyone interested in this sort of thing already has their media libraries shared via NAS.

Re:He may be right

[cptgrudge]

The big issue I have with all these hacked up systems is that additional hardware/software is needed at all. You're correct that in my case, everything is stored on the big RAID array downstairs, and XBMC just opens up the file through a Samba file share. Right now, it doesn't matter what format it is in and I'm not interested in needing more software or hardware to overcome artificially placed barriers. (Although TVersity does look like an interesting application, but it doesn't run on Linux, which is what my NAS runs downstairs.) I don't really want to leave a Windows computer on all the time when the device playing the media should have the juice to play the native format already. Seems kinda wasteful. I totally get that there are ways of getting around the drawbacks, but I don't want to support the system by leaping hurdles placed in front of me, especially when I'm not all that compelled to buy a next-gen system in the first place.

That said, there are other advantages to XBMC besides just playing your media files. You can play lots of homebrew games through it, and other games that have been ported to it. Scripting capabilities within it opens up things like Quicktime movie trailers, YouTube videos, and other web content (which I imagine TVersity can do, too). None of these things have technical burdens which would preclude Microsoft from doing the same (and more) with the 360. What exactly does "Xbox-compatible" mean, anyway? What Microsoft says you can run on the hardware that you bought? I'm just not interested in buying a product that makes me (at the moment) work around these barriers. I'll think about it again if they change their tune later on, but for now, my Xbox stays as my media hub. The longer they resist, the more it makes my opinion of the system drop, thus pushing me towards other options. Perhaps the PS3 will have some good media options after a few firmware updates?

Bottom line, I think XBMC has spoiled me. Even though Microsoft has nothing to do with it, XBMC is so nearly flawless in execution that it has raised my expectations of what a console should be capable of. If a machine can't even support common file formats without additional hardware, it sucks.

He's right...

[Erwos]

I've been using XNA for a while, and it's really a good effort by Microsoft. Easy to develop with, and exposes a pretty nice amount of the graphics and audio hardware. Compare this to PS3 Linux, which apparently doesn't even have accelerated 3D, and it's hard to argue with him - what Net Yaroze was a couple generations ago is now XNA - and much cheaper to boot.

Re:He's right...

[complete loony]

And this is exactly how Microsoft gained their dominance in the desktop PC industry. Get the developers using a different API for their platform. In the previous generation of consoles there were a bunch of frameworks that emerged for cross platform development. This time around it seems Microsoft is trying to set the standard for development to sidestep the inevitable, and lock developers into their platform.

This may be a great development tool set, but you're going to be stuck with only supporting the PC and the XBOX 360. No linux, OSX, PS3, Wii, or any other kind of gaming platform.

But hey, Microsoft bashing is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. In the head. With an elephant gun. Twice.

Re:He's right...

[Lonewolf666]

This may be a great development tool set, but you're going to be stuck with only supporting the PC and the XBOX 360. No linux, OSX, PS3, Wii, or any other kind of gaming platform.
Maybe, but Sony at least will have to blame themselves just as much. By not supporting the PS3 graphics chip under Linux (actually some reports say it has been hidden from Linux), they made sure that the PS3 is not very attractive to indie game developers.

Re:He's right...

[Harlockjds]

it's not like developing under linux on the ps3 will allow for 360 and wii development (and it hardly enables ps3 development thanks for the restrictions sony puts on the platform)

Re:He's right...

[Rycross]

Well, its not like hobbyists can develop for PS3 or the Wii in the first place. And if you're talking about OSX and Linux market share, I doubt many hobbyists would feel the market share was large enough to warrant using a different set of tools.

Re:He's right...

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

I don't know about anyone else but my take on XNA was that it was for hobbyists or small dev teams who make games for fun. I couldn't imagine a 'real' developer would make their games in XNA. On top of that, the people who want to use XNA are probably doing so because they want to use it for PC/xbox development. They probably weren't going to develop games for PS3 or Wii anyway.

Re:He's right...

[grumbel]

Yep, XNA is definitively more useful when developing a game from scratch, on the other side PS3 Linux has the advantage that it doesn't require an expensive subscription to use and that one isn't restricted to C#, so porting whatever application you want over to the PS3 is going to be a hell of a lot easier then doing the same thing XBox360. So while getting SuperTux run on PS3 is a matter of minutes, the XBox360 would require a full rewrite. It would of course also be interesting how fast a software renderer on Cell could become, that thing is after all not that much different from a GPU, but for developing 3D stuff from scratch it is of course a lot harder then XNA.

Re:He's right...

[elrous0]

I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.

I do the same thing with feces.

-Eric

Re:He's right...

[Bert64]

Assuming that sony produce accelerated 3d drivers for X11 on the PS3, then you could program graphics through OpenGL or SDL etc...
Given that, a game written for the PS3 could easily work with just a simple recompile on any system running linux, and potentially OSX/BSD aswell, assuming it doesn't require the advanced features of the Cell processor (tho it could still potentially run on one of those cell based IBM servers).

Re:He's right...

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

for a self-importance not unlike my own there's no room for feces :)

Re:He's right...

[fistfullast33l]

This may be a great development tool set, but you're going to be stuck with only supporting the PC and the XBOX 360

I'd rather have official support for one console than unofficial homebrew support for every one.

Maybe, but Sony at least will have to blame themselves just as much. By not supporting the PS3 graphics chip under Linux (actually some reports say it has been hidden from Linux), they made sure that the PS3 is not very attractive to indie game developers.

I'd say that at least Sony has given developers something to play with, even if it's not much. And no one is to say whether Sony will open it up to developers later on. It's kind of hard to run Linux on 256MB of RAM and play a game, especially under E17. I can barely get games to run on my 1gig, P4 at home in E17.

You both forgot Nintendo as well. They haven't released any sort of development platform for indie game developers at all. I think they'd rank at the bottom of the barrel on indie game support. Microsoft has done the most, then Sony, and finally Nintendo.

Re:He's right...

[k_187]

For what its worth I believe that Nintendo will sell you a Dev Kit, for like $2K. Which while cheaper than the other Official Dev Kits, is still much more than XNA. How much more/less it allows you to do than XNA I don't know.

Re:He's right...

[poot_rootbeer]

For what its worth I believe that Nintendo will sell you a Dev Kit, for like $2K.

Sorry, hobbyists, Nintendo only sells devkits to legitimate, established software houses. Ones that have secure offices where Nintendo can be assured that their proprietary resources won't be stolen from and put up for sale to the least scrupulous bidder.

If you want to develop for their handheld platforms, though, the homebrew community has pretty much reverse-engineered every aspect of the GBA and DS, and there are even a few decent IDEs available for them.

Re:He's right...

[badboy_tw2002]

Hitting a fish in the head twice with an elephant gun might be a little hard, as there won't be much left to hit the second time. ;)

Re:He's right...

[ClassMyAss]

Sorry, hobbyists, Nintendo only sells devkits to legitimate, established software houses. Ones that have secure offices where Nintendo can be assured that their proprietary resources won't be stolen from and put up for sale to the least scrupulous bidder.

I still fail to understand Nintendo's paranoia on this matter. What needs to be in a developer's kit that is so potentially damaging to their interests if it were to get out? Wouldn't the kit basically just consist of a hardware interface and an API with some precompiled binaries to run against? Validate the software with a hardware dongle and I don't see what the issue is with selling the things to anyone that has the cash...I mean, they're not putting source code in these kits or anything, are they?

I assume that the real issue is that Nintendo wants to continue exercising its right to screen developers to make sure crap games aren't coming out on the system, right? Or am I just being cynical? [disclaimer: I'm actually something of a Nintendo fanboy, I'm just bitter because I would love to develop for the Wii and probably won't get a chance...]

Offtopic, but...

[solanum]

am I only only one that gets sick of the PR language that is used in the IT industry, it's constant drivel. I mean look at:

What we [at XBox] are focused on doing is providing great tools at a free or low price point that are going to enable consumers to be absolutely successful at creating games for both the Windows and the Xbox 360 platforms. They're not tools they're "great tools", they don't provide a product they "enable consumers", their product doesn't just do a job it is "absolutely successful" argghhhhhhh............. One of my aims in life is never to buy anything from a company that uses this sort of PR speak.

Re:Offtopic, but...

[mabinogi]

no, it doesn't enable customers, nor is their product absolutely successful.
Maybe you need to read the sentence again.

"...it enables consumers to be (absolutely) successful at creating games.."

There is nothing at all wrong with that sentence, apart from the unnecessary use of successful. Although I guess you could rephrase that as "..to enable consumers to successfully create games..", but that's not a case of marketing speak, just a kind of clumsy sentence.
There's also nothing wrong with them claiming their tools are great.

If you're going to pick nits, make sure they exist first.
That "PR speak" is called English. Plain, simple, (if a little over enthusiastic), English.

Re:Offtopic, but...

[gutnor]

"One of my aims in life is never to buy anything from a company that uses this sort of PR speak."

Ah, I see you lived in some remote island until recently, so let me be the first to welcome you in the "civilisation". Yout nightmare is over.

Here every companies is a leading player in its field, cheaper AND better than everybody else. Oh and they don't "sell" you products like in the dark ages, no they sacrifice themself to offer you an intimate and spiritual experience made just for you.
That applies to software off course, but also to hardware and to washing powder, snaks, car, tv, milk, water, holidays, ... and even polician.

Rejoice consumer.

Re:Offtopic, but...

[saboola]

Is PR language different in any other industry? It's not like Campbell's soup has advertisements that say "We provide liquid food for nourishment".

Re:Offtopic, but...

[Ogive17]

So you want something that says... "well... uh... here is product X, buy it"?

My thoughts are I wouldn't buy a product if the company didn't at least attempt to be excited about selling it.

Re:Offtopic, but...

[Austerity Empowers]

Nothing "C#" can or should legally be considered to be a "great tool", or "low price". I think we should start with a lawsuit and work from there.

Re:Offtopic, but...

[adisakp]

They're not tools they're "great tools", they don't provide a product they "enable consumers", their product doesn't just do a job it is "absolutely successful" argghhhhhhh............. One of my aims in life is never to buy anything from a company that uses this sort of PR speak.

I take it you don't buy anything commercially sold in the US then ???

Cluster

[mocm]

I see Linux on the PS3 more as an opportunity to get a cheap cell cluster than for game developement.
It may also be an excuse for Sony to avoid customs fees, because now the PS3 is a usable Computer as
compared to just a video game.

Re:Cluster

[ZahnRosen]

I know those in the distributed computing field, render farmers, folders and the like are pretty excited to get access to that cell processor. Even if it is completely crippled.

Re:Cluster

[Megane]

Read your own link. It says "the PlayStation 2 is 'not freely programmable' it is not classed as a computer and therefore falls under the 9504 code." It says nothing about the "customs fees" going away, just that the PS2 lost the exemption. The PS3, however, is apparently capable of booting and installing a CD-R/DVD-R of Linux, with nothing locked out but the RSX chip. And this is without a special startup disc like the PS2 Linux needed, so every unit out there is capable of this.

That being said, and even though I usually am not too impressed by what Microsoft does, I have to agree with the title of this /. article. All the PS3 has is bootable Linux, but what Microsoft has is apparently a good library for programming games. Of course, in typical Microsoft "lock-in, lock-out" style, it only works under Windows and the Xbox 360, and right now doesn't let you run games on the 360 without a developer subscription, but it apparently has what programmers need, rather than being a toy for tinkerers to say "OMFG LINZX ON PES3EE!"

As much as I don't want to, I agree with that.

[Atriqus]

Considering Linux PS3 is missing a 3D accelerated video driver. What are they coming out with next, an LCD without a backlight?

Re:As much as I don't want to, I agree with that.

[vandenh]

Indeed... Microsoft is right. Linux on PS3 is not a competitor to XNA as long as RSX is locked out in PS3. Basically Linux for PS3 will be good for 2D games (emulators), pirates and as a media server/HUB. Not bad but not useful for small/amateur PS3 game devs.

Microsoft is absolutely right.

[hsa]

PS3 Linux is an effort to sell PS3 as a computer. It has only access to framebuffer, without any hardware accelerated 3d support.

XNA is a game development platform working on both Windows and XBOX360.

Which would be better for Game Developers? :)

Well...

[mungtor]

I'm not a developer, but would it be too much of a stretch to think that PS3 Linux will eventually expose all of the graphics and audio hardware? XNA seems to be limited to what Microsoft wants you to see, as far as I understand it (and I'm not a developer).

I would also think that PS3 Linux will be a lot better for general purpose computing, maybe clusters for parallel computations (fluid flow, CAD/CAE analysis). Can you build a $700 computer now that out-performs a PS3 computationally? (I'm really asking, I don't know what the Cell processors can do)

At least Sony isn't stopping you from trying things with the PS3 that you bought. I don't like them so much as a company, but they definitely seem to be the lesser of the two evils in this case (which is why the story wasn't posted by Zonk).

Re:Well...

[k_187]

Well, the reason linux can't access the video chip in the PS3 is because Sony locked it out. I don't know that there is a way around it. If there is, I'm sure somebody will find it. But that's a limitation that Sony put in, not one of drivers or linux itself.

Re:Well...

[J-F Mammet]

Yep, it's been confirmed by Sony just a few days ago that at least for the moment RSX was locked out of PS3 Linux because of security concerns. That's a big disappointment, but it looks like the framebuffer device will be fast enough for HD videos. It's "just" a matter of someone optimizing ffmpeg for Cell I guess.
For games though, it's a bad news. Let's hope Sony will update the hypervisor to allow RSX access for Linux.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm currently developing using the PS3 cell. I suspect that the reason that the RSX chip the currently 'locked out' by Sony is because there is a lot of proprietary stuff in there to do with piping data into and out of the RSX, some of which doesn't apply to the PS3 anyway.

It is perfectly possible (and likely) that an OpenGL accelerated library could be released for Linux using the RSX that does not expose the proprietary stuff.

By the way the power of the thing is crazy - you can do 6x real-time HD (1920x1080) MPEG-2 *encodes* (one in each SPU) no problem. There's going to be some pretty cool stuff out there soon.

Re:Well...

[saboola]

"Security issues", or people making homebrew PS3 games (not just 2d stuff) that are as good or better than "real" PS3 games and thus taking away from corporate profits.

Re:Well...

[HAKdragon]

I'm thinking it's more of an issue of Sony worrying that somebody will be able to make boot-leg PS2/3 games and possibly Blu-Ray movies.

Re:Well...

[elrous0]

They never exposed them on the PS2 Linux that they released. In fact, many have argued that the inclusion of Linux on the PS2/PS2 is just a fancy way to dodge taxes in Europe (since, apparently, computers are taxed less than consoles), not a serious stab at encouraging homebrew development. And, considering the way Sony has treated homebrew for the PSP, I'm inclined to believe it.

-Eric

Re:Well...

[CronoCloud]

No no no, it was YABASIC on the EU PS2's that was meant to dodge the tax, not the PS2 Linux kit, which came after.

The tax is gone now so it's moot.

Re:Well...

[elrous0]

I've been saying this for a long time. But everyone was far too caught up in the "Sony is opening up the PS3!" bullshit hype to listen.

-Eric

Re:Well...

[drinkypoo]

And if they say "no, we don't want your game" you're screwed

Right now, Sony is saying "no, you can't use all the hardware" - so how are you not screwed?

Face it, both of these "efforts" are bullshit.

Re:Well...

[faragon]

I agree. The Linux kit for PS2 was released on '2002 spring as an add-on (I received myself the kit at june '2002), while the PS2 was released almost 2/3 years before (!)

P.S. are you the same 'cronocloud' of the PS2Linux Community phorum?
P.S.2. greetings from PS2Linux 'aragon' user, nice to see you here!
P.S.3. there will be an special context for PS3 Linux development or will be same place as for the PS2 (I still receive messages from the mail list)

Re:Well...

[badboy_tw2002]

It actually requires Shader 1.1 (Dx 9.0c), which I believe is Xbox 1 (GeForce 2+?) quality hardware. I think any card after 2001-2002 should be able to run it just fine. (My computer at home can't run it either :(, but it has trouble with a lot of indy games (Darwinia crushed it) so I don't really think its XNAs issue. There's enough stuff out there to give you a viable indy market on the Win32, being 3-4 years out from minimum spec. (Its all relative to what you put in your game though - more machines could run a 2d side scroller than an FPS for instance) I'm not sure what the deal is with the 360, but I imagine you are correct - MS will have to approve your game before anyone can play it on the 360 (at least if you sell it to them and don't distribute it open source). I doubt that will change anytime soon. Having it work on 360 is more of a "cool" factor than anything else.

Re:Well...

[NotNormal23224]

Yep it's another smoke and mirrors effort by Sony to give the masses the illusion of freedom, then drain all the air out of the room when people get to close to actually achieving something. "Wow, look I can run Linux!" suddenly becomes "WTF! I can't actually use OpenGL and accelerated graphics to build my games????"

Re:Well...

[NotNormal23224]

Unfortuinately the "it's perfectly possible" statement has been the band-aid for every shortcoming that has been exposed on the PS3. The MS guy is right, at this moment a PS3 running Linux is no threat at all, and can't be considered competition because you just can't use it to do what they are doing, right now with XNA, period. Hoping that things will change for the better isn't going to cut it. It's fustrating having the wonder box of the PS3 on my shelf that was supposed to bury everything the moment it graced store selves according to Sony only to find the machine in almost every area is unfinished or out right crippled.

Re:Well...

[Junta]

people making homebrew PS3 games (not just 2d stuff) that are as good or better than "real" PS3 games Look at the extremely wide open personal computer platform over the years. How many non-puzzle original games in the homebrew scene are something companies should worry about? Even when trying to copy a game functionally, generally the free art the community comes up with detracts horribly from the original. Notable free games I can think of are several puzzle games (i.e. frozen bubble), Freeciv (which has decent independent art, only just many years after their commercial inspiration), Ur-Quan Masters (which is just SC2 ported after 10 years, and various games played via emulation (obviously not original).

They are clearly worried about people leveraging linux support to get around protections that prevent playing copied games, and have essentially made the linux support worthless (in true Sony fashion). Sony isn't stupid, and you are too optimistic in the homebrew scenes ability to outproduce large-budget, full work-week efforts by large companies.

Say what you want ...

[LaughingCoder]

about Microsoft, but this is one thing they have *always* gotten. Providing excellent tools and 3rd party developers has been one of the main reasons they have been so successful over the years. It's nice to see they haven't forgotten that.

Re:Say what you want ...

[LaughingCoder]

oops ... "for 3rd party developers", not "and 3rd party developers". Must click preview. Must click preview.

Re:Say what you want ...

[binkzz]

"about Microsoft, but this is one thing they have *always* gotten."

That's categorically false. In recent years their tools have improved a lot, but before that they were a right nightmare.

Re:Say what you want ...

[Almahtar]

I sure wish their Windows API reference didn't crash every 30 minutes, and didn't have screenshots from Windows 3.x era...

Re:Say what you want ...

[badboy_tw2002]

I'm not sure if he's speaking about games, but I'd say the original XBox SDK beat the shit out of the PS2 right from the start. Sony hasn't even caught up to Xbox 1 with the PS3 SDK (but its much much better than PS2, I think because of IBM's invovlement) and is way behind the 360. The hardware on the otherhand is debatable...

linux on ps2 proved valuable

[ZahnRosen]

By providing access to a development platform at such a low cost users are encouraged to program, learn and hopefully not brick their consoles. Do I expect Ps3 linux gaming to be anything special, not really, but if it provides access to the hardward, development tools then you'll see kids getting even more interested in becoming programmers since they'll have practical experience.

Re:linux on ps2 proved valuable

[Brunellus]

Maybe I'm not 1337 enough to hang out here, but I don't think I ever knew a single person who booted Linux on the ps2...for any reason. As I recall, the OS was Free but the bootloader highly proprietary...

Re:linux on ps2 proved valuable

[ZahnRosen]

it became a huge part of the mod'ing scene for the ps2, leading to all sorts of hacks. Once you give a kid root access its only a matter of time before they figure out how to hack, steal and rip .iso's. Certainly, not everyone who got the linux kit used it for those purposes but they were one significant usage.

Re:linux on ps2 proved valuable

[Brunellus]

So you give kids root access. They hack. They homebrew. So what?

What if you threw a "revolution" and nobody came? I'm racking my brains to think of a single new or useful thing that PS2 Linux did for the community, and I can't think of a single one. I'll admit that there were probably feats of tremendous nerd-fu that I'm not aware of--but did any of those same nerd-fu feats result in anything that would cause me to run to the PS2 platform? Answer seems to be no.

I'm a Linux user. I like the kernel. I like the OSes that use the Linux kernel. But I get the sense that Sony is treating Linux as really nothing more than a tool to bring their own development costs down, rather than a way to improve/extend the capabilities of their platform. There's nothing wrong with that view, of course, so long as it conforms to the relevant licenses. But it sure doesn't make me enthusiastic.

Re:linux on ps2 proved valuable

[ZahnRosen]

I don't substantially disagree with you on any pof these points. I will say that having the marketing muscle, development budget and exposure has, and some small segment of that involving the use of the word linux and contributing some small amount of code back to the community *will prove beneficial in the long run*. Lowering development costs is a huge reason to use any OS, paid or not. otherwise I'd have written the OS I'm using on my laptop... and so would the billion other people who have computers... Wait, isn't compiling your own kernal a linux idea? Full circle we have come, my friend.

Re:He would says that, wouldn't he ...

[Macthorpe]

Can you please clarify how XNA is leveraging a dominant position in Office to provide game-creation tools for the Xbox 360?

What's an XNA?

[Andy_R]

Apart from being the the IATA airport code for Northwest Arkansas Regional Airport in Fayetteville, Arkansas, what on earth is an XNA?

Re:What's an XNA?

[ari wins]

XNA Framework and XNA Game Studio Express

http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/ - FAQ
http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?Fo rumID=882&SiteID=1 - MSDN Forums

Re:What's an XNA?

[badboy_tw2002]

Commodore 64 anyone? Its correct to say that its the first console in quite a while, but not ever.

Distribution Channels and Licensing?

[Bones3D_mac]

I've been hearing a lot about XNA lately, but I'm curious if the licensing only allows you to share your creations with other XNA developers. At what point does the average consumer get to try out these independent games for themselves? Also, who ultimately owns the content you create using these tools? As inexpensive as Microsoft is making XNA for all the aspiring developers out there, I'd imagine there's probably some benefits Microsoft is going to gain from offering XNA other than mere bragging rights.

Will some of these developers one day find their creations suddenly assimilated into the Xbox Live Arcade under a completely different title with no mention of their name in the credits?

Re:Distribution Channels and Licensing?

[jdoucette]

I was at an XNA launch event on Nov 11, so things might have changed since XNA actually launched, but at that point the only way to share a homebrew XBox game was to send the source code to your friend, who would have to install XNA/C# Express and compile and load the thing. That will likely change (and again, may have already, but I haven't checked in on XNA since November), so you can pick your favourite conspiracy theory about how MS will screw/liberate you at that time. As far as I know, any code you write is still yours, just like anything you'd write in any other MS language... JD

Re:Distribution Channels and Licensing?

[Bones3D_mac]

I wasn't specifically trying to single out Microsoft, in this particular case. In fact, I'd like this to become a sucessful business model for independent developers on the 360. The 360's XBox Live Arcade simply doesn't grow fast enough, despite how well designed their system is.

The problem I'm curious about, is that I've seen many of these proprietary development systems come out over the years that would eventually screw over the developers. They'd limit the potential audience to only a select few who owned the proper developer kit or dongle. After that, the path pretty much became a dead end street.

If I spent hundreds or thousands on development software/hardware, I'd certainly want some assurance that I could allow anyone with a normal version of the console I'm developing for to be able to play the game I created, so my friends/relatives could try it out for themselves without having to jump through a bunch of hoops.

Luckily, it sounds like XNA may actually be a step in the right direction, for a change.

Re:Distribution Channels and Licensing?

[DragonWriter]

I've been hearing a lot about XNA lately, but I'm curious if the licensing only allows you to share your creations with other XNA developers.

I believe the licensing for the free version prohibits you from distributing Xbox-targetted binary code at all, you can only distribute source; therefore, the user must also use XNA.

Actually...

[shaneh0]

It's more robust than that.

From the FAQ:

"The XNA Framework Content Pipeline, a set of tools that allow developers to more easily incorporate 3D content into their games"

From an Ars Technica Article:

"3D models come in a dizzying variety of formats, depending on what tool has been used to create them. In order to make it easier for developers to create their own content, Microsoft has announced that SoftImage has added support for the XNA's native ".X" format to their Mod Tool 4.2 software, a free version of the company's popular 3D modelling program. In addition, the XNA software supports the Autodesk .FBX format, which can be exported by tools such as 3D Studio Max and its free cousin, GMax. The .X format is text-based and very straightforward, so it is easy for other modelling software companies to add support for the format, and some free file translators are already available."

From the same article:

"Microsoft hopes to help by providing subscribers to the XNA service access to the "XNA Creators Club," which includes a large database of free 2D and 3D art, models, and textures. Developers can use these assets as-is free of charge in developing their own games, or modify them to suit their purposes."

Again, from Ars Technica:

"XNA acts as a bridge between the .NET frameworks and the lower-level game interfaces such as DirectX. Programmers call routines in the XNA game library that activate 3D screen modes, create polygons, paint textures on 3D meshes, play sounds, and interface with control devices such as joysticks or the Xbox 360 game controller."

http://arstechnica.com/articles/xna.ars/1
http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/

Let's all work together to bust the FUD.

Re:Actually...

[squiggleslash]

I've been thinking for a while that this really is the direction GNU/Linux needs to go into if it wants a reasonable selection of games, and it's perhaps something Sony should consider assuming they're serious about homebrew development and haven't just put GNU on the PS3 as a tax dodge.

What's needed is a cross platform framework into which modern games can be developed with relative ease. Preferably this should incorporate some basic engines covering a wide range of game types so the programmer can concentrate on the art and logic rather than the technical details of 3D accelleration. Libraries could exist containing free/adaptable art, and simplifications of certain types of logic (for example, for bots.) Over time, such a system would become increasingly useful as more and more people contribute to the libraries to scratch their own itches or improve games they've obtained and wanted to improve a little more.

I've been really impressed with the Unreal frameworks, and while they concentrate on a specific type of game, it's not difficult to see how the idea can be extended. Buying "Unreal Tournament" (any version) is not buying what's on the box, there's a wealth of homebrew stuff that's freely downloadable and frequently better than the games Epic, and its competitors like id, come up with.

With Java entering the GPL-domain, a significant part of the low level stuff would be implemented (and systems like Jake2 prove that Java is a practical, fast-enough, VM for real time 3D games.) There are enough stillborn projects on SourceForge et al to prove that people like writing game engines, robots, and other components for games - the problems tending to be that the people who write one component get bored when they realise they have to write the other bits. So the skills are out there. To some extent, the technology is out there. What's missing is the integration and the coordination.

Re:Actually...

[shaneh0]

I agree. If somebody could abstract the hardware it would be pure genius. Unfortunately, I think that most people with enough brains and bucks to do this would realize the value and sell it, instead of giving it away.

I could see a future YouTube-ish site for indie game developers. Or maybe Pure Volume is a better example, where resources are pooled and the best of the games get distribution deals.

It's a lot of work to create a successful video game, but I feel strongly that there's a niche for simple, creative games. I'm not much of a gamer, but I have a real impression that game producers are stuck in a creative rut even if they don't acknowledge it themselves. I think the industry relies too much on franchises and serials. We might be able to see some truly unique, creative games if we give the unique, creative masses the tools to express themselves in this medium.

I think no matter how you see Microsoft, this is a step in the right direction.

Re:Actually...

[Zero Degrez]

The Tao project is working on porting XNA for the The Mono project (which is a port of .Net). So theoretically, you could write it in XNA, and run mono on the PS3/Linux and bring any XNA game to the PS3/Linux. At some point in the future. Check it out.

http://www.taoframework.com/Mono.Xna

Re:Actually...

[pudro]

assuming they're serious about homebrew development and haven't just put GNU on the PS3 as a tax dodge.

I don't know where you heard anyone claim this as even a possibility, but it is completely bogus. The exceptions in the tax laws that would have saved Sony money if they could get the PS2 classified as a "computer" were done away with years ago. Tax dodging has nothing to do with Sony calling their console a "computer" (this time).

Re:Actually...

[squiggleslash]

That's good to hear. It's nice to hear something positive about Sony once in a while...

Re:Actually...

[edwardpickman]

Check out Torque. They have a 2D and 3D game engine that can be exported to PC, Mac and Linux and they just came out with XNA development tools for the 2D engine with a 3D toolset availible early next year. They by far have the most adaptible engines availible and for what they do are realitively inexpensive.

Re:Actually...

[NotNormal23224]

Only if Sony gives access to the 3d Hardware through Linux, could that happen. Right now you can't get accelerated video at all (2D or 3D) so even a wrapper won't help, if you have to run open GL in software mode.

From the FAQ

[Timesprout]

Q: What does XNA stand for? A: XNAs Not Acronymed

Re:From the FAQ

[Orange Crush]

XNAs Not Acronymed

Hey now! They're cribbing FOSS's use of recursive acronyms. However, I suspect it's partially intended to imply "DNA" for the Xbox.

Re:Windows Game Edition

[shaneh0]

HAHA! BSOD! HAHA!

Seriously. 1999 called and they want their joke back.

Sound nice at first

[angelfly]

XNA may sound nice at first but it's actually pretty limiting. The worst thing of all is your forced to use C#. It also sucks that they didn't make solutions for other platforms. I could have seen myself buying a 360 just for XNA but not being able to code in C or C++ and having to use Windows to compile the stuff really changed a lot of that.

Re:Sound nice at first

[everphilski]

XNA may sound nice at first but it's actually pretty limiting. The worst thing of all is your forced to use C#. Then go C++ and DirectX. It is very similar except for the re-write of DirectInput/some changes to Direct3D and DirectSound. C# really isn't that bad of a language once you get to know it. Its kinda like a lovechild of Java and C++ except without some of the boneheadedness of java (no operator overloading! bah, java!) and less ways to kill yourself in C++ (no pointers unless you explicitly call unsafe {})

It also sucks that they didn't make solutions for other platforms

Ok. It works on every microsoft platform. What more did you expect?

Re:Sound nice at first

[dioscaido]

The XNA is not meant for people creating the next Gears of War. It's for hobbyist. And C# on .Net is performant than enough to make beautiful 2d and reasonably complex 3d games (see their demo XNA 3d driving game).

That said, I wouldn't be surprised that the decision to use C# is partly to lock the game down onto the MS platform. But as a technology you should be able to make some awesome games w/ the language.

Re:Sound nice at first

[Endlessa]

C# is a perfectly fine language and is capable of making external DLL call. The data structures and functions are compatable and it takes minimal work to integrate with C++. (of course you then would have to deal with platform differences in API). Don't get me wrong I'm not pro microsoft. . .I'm currently programming for Linux/Java and primarily run linux on all my machines except 1 windows box for gaming.(simply because I'm cheap :) ! ) All that said, C# is an excellent language, expecially for platform abstraction (see mono linux project). Microsoft seems to be getting closer to creating more affordable tools and the ability to create games for my XBox would be awesome. Sony on the other hand has been nothing less than asinine with their pricing, overly complex API, closed system that a general user can't code against, pushing their product out to early and, most of all, their insistance in shoving blue ray down peeps throughts (hence the pricing problem. . .those blue ray lasers are expensive). . . your comparing two proprietary giants here not one innocent and one evil. . . . but the sad thing being that sony is placing access to their system out of the reach of most normal users. Anyhow. .. blah blah blah

Well, yeah, he is right, but...

[nekokoneko]

Although Linux can be a nice environment for programming, a framework which facilitates writing games specifically would be much easier to write games to. And that's where he's missing the point (on purpose or not). It's only for writing games. Linux enables you to do a bunch of other cool stuff (playing around with the Cell architecture, doing cheap clusters, etc). And theoretically, Sony could eventually provide people with a framework to write games on PS3 Linux, while still enabling us to do cool stuff.

Hearing a lot about XNA lately...

[AlXtreme]

methinks Microsoft is pumping up the marketing on this one. XNA seems to be a combination of previously-separated technologies (DirectX, IDE), and integration (if you like it or not) is one of Microsoft's strongpoints IMHO.

As the target of XNA seems to be both the professional and the home-brew-market, can the Free Software camp beat this? Well, we already have quite a few game libraries, heaps of engines and a number of IDEs. I'm not aware of any FOSS-'game asset pipeline management tools', and targetting consoles (outside of the Linux-on-the-* projects) has always been something for the big players due to licensing fees.

What is interesting is their idea of having various 'starter kits' for certain types of games (FPS, RTS, platform), all using a common framework. Using them you could quickly get nice results. Is anyone aware of similar FOSS-projects? Might be interesting to build something similar on top of pygame.

Re:Hearing a lot about XNA lately...

[AlXtreme]

Pygame and SDL are integrated, just like XNA is an extension of DirectX (and then some)

No, I think what you want is simply impossible. Reading on for a bit more about XNA left me the idea that the whole point is to lock in developers. We're going to have to roll up our sleves if we want both Python and XNA-like features.

Re:Hearing a lot about XNA lately...

[Molt]

Some people have already got XNA development working with IronPython, and it all seems to work well. I've been playing about with XNA myself for the last few months (It's been in open beta for a while) and the codebase I'm working on now happily allows me to add IronPython scripting with very little pain.

In worse news there isn't though is much chance of ever gluing XNA and pygame together. XNA is heavily based around the current PC/XBox360 graphics hardware, it can't even target anything not capable of running shaders and has no support for the fixed-pipeline in 3d (The 360 doesn't have it so neither does XNA) hence relying very heavily on MS' HLSL graphics shader language.. any kind of cross-platform code conversion would be very difficult indeed.

Re:Hearing a lot about XNA lately...

[Almahtar]

As the target of XNA seems to be both the professional and the home-brew-market, can the Free Software camp beat this? The obvious OSS advantage is the choice of any language you want. As a professional software developer, C# does not impress me at all. It's all hype and features copied from other languages.

What is interesting is their idea of having various 'starter kits' for certain types of games (FPS, RTS, platform), ... Is anyone aware of similar FOSS-projects? The Quake3 engine for FPS comes to mind. I don't know if there are any for RTS or platform because I haven't looked them up. Can anyone confirm the existence/nonexistence of them?

Re:Hearing a lot about XNA lately...

[Mr2001]

The obvious OSS advantage is the choice of any language you want. As a professional software developer, C# does not impress me at all. It's all hype and features copied from other languages. They keep mentioning C# in connection with XNA, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't also use C++, VB.NET, or the other .NET languages. After all, language independence is one of the main features of .NET.

XBox 360 and Independent Developers

[Bones3D_mac]

Just on the outside chance that there is no "catch" to using XNA, there are ways Microsoft could embrace independent game development to it's full potential.

One possible method, would be to introduce a special section on XBox Live Arcade specifically for allowing end users to try out independently developed games. They could set up a sort of "Independent Game Developer of the Week" contest, where the best designed game gets a full week of distribution onto the Xbox Live Arcade. Once downloaded, these games would have an expiration date on them, at which point the game is removed from the user's console once the time has elapsed. Microsoft could then use Xbox Live to track each game's popularity and overall usage to determine whether or not to buy the rights to the game outright and make it a permanent addition to the Xbox Live Arcade's library.

Re:Right about what?

[Ngarrang]

Antek9 wrote, "Another Microsoft spokesperson that doesn't 'get' Linux, what else is new?"

Give M$ a little more credit than that. I would imagine they know just as much about Linux as the community itself. They probably have a secret department who's job is to do nothing but monitor Linux and to know it better than the enemy (that would be some of you folks). You cannot fight an enemy you do not know, and you should strive to know them better than they know themselves.

M$ reps are instructed by M$ on how to respond to Linux. There is nothing new here to see, please move along.

On an HTPC

[tepples]

At what point does the average consumer get to try out these independent games for themselves?

Right now, if you're not a member of XNA Creators Club, you have to run the game on a PC running Windows OS, and unless you have a home theater PC, it's likely that the screen will be too small to fit four players around.

Translation

[jimmichie]

You're right. He could have said...

"We are going to provide cheap or free tools that let buyers create games for Windows and Xbox 360."

...but that's the language of commitment and definites. He's in marketing, so he doesn't ever want to say anything definite in case the company changes its multi-headed mind, hence "focused on" instead of "going to". And no, you're not the only one who's sick of PR language.
If it bugs you that much, you could try writing a Firefox plug-in to convert marketspeak to plain English. Here's a few to get you started;

"focused on" becomes ""
"great" becomes ""
"absolutely" becomes ""
"platforms" becomes ""

handheld?

[tepples]

The worst thing of all is your forced to use C#. Then go C++ and DirectX.

Why can't I go Managed C++ or C++/CLI?

C# really isn't that bad of a language once you get to know it

Right now, I'm working on a project where the PC and Game Boy Advance versions of the same program share the same game logic source tree. Is this possible with an environment that requires the C# language? Or would I have to code the game logic twice and keep them in sync manually, which as far as I can tell would appear to have a huge potential for introducing bugs?

Ok. It works on every microsoft platform. What more did you expect?

Compatibility with Microsoft Windows Mobile perhaps?

Re:handheld?

[everphilski]

Why can't I go Managed C++ or C++/CLI?
you can... didn't think I had to hand-hold you through every choice... theres like 50 other languages you can choose from as well.

Right now, I'm working on a project where the PC and Game Boy Advance versions of the same program share the same game logic source tree. Is this possible with an environment that requires the C# language? Or would I have to code the game logic twice and keep them in sync manually, which as far as I can tell would appear to have a huge potential for introducing bugs?

Game boy uses an ARM and Z80 processor right? doubtful (I mean yea you could compile Mono against an ARM but Linux is painful slow on a Gameboy to begin with). But you are probably programming in C/C++ right? You could write a wrapper (not re-code game logic, just write a wrapper to the interfaces) and BAM! a .NET module.

Compatibility with Microsoft Windows Mobile perhaps?

Uh, yea. From the press release: The XNA development platform will serve as the foundation for future game platforms from Microsoft, including Windows, Xbox and Windows Mobile-based devices. Link

XBox 360 Media Center?

[Aggrajag]

Would it be possible to start developing XB360MC with XNA and if it is does it cost anything?

Re:XBox 360 Media Center?

[aikouka]

Supposedly Microsoft said that developing Applications for the XBOX 360 using the XBOX's XNA doesn't work as well as it does on the PC. They didn't really say why, but we have to remember that the XBOX 360 runs a modified version of the .NET 2.0 architecture, not the standard version that Windows machines can use. They also remarked that they are working toward trying to make application development a good possibility. I believe this information is in the XNA FAQ.

Re:XBox 360 Media Center?

[Duwke]

XNA does not include any networking for this release. So, you are limited to what's inside the box for now.

Secondly, everything would need to be ported to (what essentially is) the .net compact edition, which is a subset of the .net runtime. Not sure how that factors into the xbmc development for 360, but it is a limitation.

Was it supposed to be competitive?

[Oz0ne]

I didn't think that linux on PS3 and XNA were even remotely related. Different technologies, different purposes.

Re:Was it supposed to be competitive?

[Jare]

Consoles have traditionally prevented users to develop software for them, only licensed developers could. PS3 Linux and XNA Creator's Club both allow users to develop software for their respective consoles. Looks like a solid relation to me.

GP2X is for emulators and source ports, right?

[tepples]

Linux/FOSS on the GP2X has resulted in a superlative gaming experience for many who care to look beyond the hype and behind the curtain and see that, in fact, having access to the full suite of Linux tools in an open fashion results in superlative code being written for the fun of all

But was most of this code on the GP2X written with original games in original worlds in mind, or is it mostly just to run copies of classic games in emulation or source port?

Re:GP2X is for emulators and source ports, right?

[torpor]

But was most of this code on the GP2X written with original games in original worlds in mind, or is it mostly just to run copies of classic games in emulation or source port?

The answer, of course is: Both. This is not a dialectic realm; it is an all-encompassing one, and that means emulators as well as new and original games.

Its wide open. Anything can be run on the GP2X. Original homebrew, ported code from dusty machinery, brand new stuff. All of the above with no limits.

That the GP2X is a hot-bed of emulation activity is more an indicator of what types of coders are on the bleeding edge of Linux-friendly hardware right now - the emulator guru's - than it is a reflection of what the hardware 'supports'. The GP2X supports running whatever you want it to run .. but of course, the 'coolest' stuff that the GP2X has going for it right now is all coming from the ultra-edgy emulator land. You can't beat being able to load up 15,000 games from your favourite game/console systems in one portable device, take it all on the bus, and get your reminiscence on .. this is, of course, the widest promoted factor of the GP2X thus far. But the GP2X has tons more going for it: there is an X11 port (so you can use your GP2X as a handy X11 workstation), there are alternative OS bootstraps (ecos, etc.), there are digital music composition apps, and .. yes .. there are original games being developed exclusively for the GP2X platform as well ..

Got an idea for a game? Code it up in SDL, recompile for GP2X (or any other such platform) and away you go. The GP2X will run whatever you want it to run - there are *zero* limits on this angle of things, and in that regard, is a strength of the GP2X platform compared to Sony/Microsoft, both companies which want to have a more aggressive control over the 'types' of content that their systems will be used with ..

With the GP2X, the choice is yours, entirely. You've got all the tools necessary to use all hardware in the device, period. No limits.

So .. my point is .. watch this space grow. Who knows what the GP8x will have to offer in the epic battle for developer brain focus ..

Re:GP2X is for emulators and source ports, right?

[tepples]

You can't beat being able to load up 15,000 games from your favourite game/console systems

15,000 times $750 minimum statutory damages per work whose copyright is infringed = over $11 million. Or do you expect somebody to have purchased 15,000 game cartridges and soldered together 20 copiers to copy the game cartridges to the GP2X?

But the GP2X has tons more going for it: there is an X11 port (so you can use your GP2X as a handy X11 workstation)

But is an X11 server on GP2X useful for running popular X11 applications without a keyboard and mouse or a touch screen to emulate the keyboard and mouse?

The GP2X will run whatever you want it to run - there are *zero* limits on this angle of things

Except how can I play multiplayer if I can't find any other GP2X owners in town because there are 0 stores in town that sell the GP2X hardware? Am I supposed to purchase and carry around multiple GP2X systems?

Re:GP2X is for emulators and source ports, right?

[torpor]

15,000 times $750 minimum statutory damages per work whose copyright is infringed = over $11 million. Or do you expect somebody to have purchased 15,000 game cartridges and soldered together 20 copiers to copy the game cartridges to the GP2X?


uhh .. yeah. there are not-so-extreme legal ways to own those games, you know ..


But is an X11 server on GP2X useful for running popular X11 applications without a keyboard and mouse or a touch screen to emulate the keyboard and mouse?


You can plug in a keyboard and a mouse, and a monitor.


Except how can I play multiplayer if I can't find any other GP2X owners in town because there are 0 stores in town that sell the GP2X hardware? Am I supposed to purchase and carry around multiple GP2X systems?


Sure, why not? I have 3, they're all used for different things .. watching movies in the kitchen, a game machine on the go, and hacking on in the den .. Cheap enough that I may just get another one, in fact.

Re:GP2X is for emulators and source ports, right?

[tepples]

uhh .. yeah. there are not-so-extreme legal ways to own those games, you know ..

No I don't. Could you explain please? What's the legal way to buy 15,000 games for game consoles and put them on an SD card without paying extreme money? Or by "being able to load up 15,000 games" did you mean "being able to load up your choice of 15,000 games"?

You can plug in a keyboard and a mouse

If a GP2X compatible game is designed to use those controllers, is it practical to play it on the bus or train or as a passenger on a long car trip?

and a monitor.

By which time you might as well use a laptop, right?

Proprietary engine=market failure

[Tzinger]

Sony has clearly not learned a lesson from the early 80's. TI produced a console called a TI99 that was based on a pretty good TI 9900 microprocessor. In many ways the microprocessor and its supporting chips were superior to the technology and chip used by Apple and the Commodore 64.

Both Commodore and Apple made their platforms very open and allowed many 3rd parties to develop hardware and software with virtually no licensing restrictions and very modest fees if any. TI on the other hand, made its development kit proprietary and required use of a cartridge with a TI-only chip. Thereby, TI could control development for its platform in great detail. The license fees were significant so few small companies participated.

TI never did achieve the kind of market share they needed for the product. Eventually, a console that initially cost $500 was dumped onto the market at $99 to unload the inventory.

The situation is a bit different today. There are a number of large game companies that can afford to deal with Sony. That will keep the Sony product alive with a decent market share. However, we can expect that the most innovative products will come on other platforms where entrepreneurs are encouraged to participate.

Sony appears to be locked into the Betamax mentality. Try for price leverage by creating barriers that prevent new players from entering the market. Use every possible mechanism for generating revenue, even if it slows market penetration.

I don't see the strategy working now either.

Tzinger

Re:Proprietary engine=market failure

[apoc06]

i fail to understand your argument. the cell is a processor. it does not require a significant license fee if you wish to program an application to utiliize the cell under linux. microsoft on the other hand is charging you for the ability to run your code on the xbox360. you are "forced" [your term] into using their platforms for development. [c#, windows, "XNA", directx]

the only time you pay sony anything is if you wish to purchase a developers' license. if you really want a dev kit, using linux on the ps3 shouldnt even enter your mind; your aims are larger than the scope of the commercial console.

if your argument was against sony's lock out of graphics acceleration i could understand, but microsoft is slightly more guilty of locking users into a proprietary dev kit here. at $99/ year for XNA, you quickly top and exceed the ps3 price tag within two years; thats before you take into account any additional xbox360 features you may want [hd-dvd, additional controllers, wireless, xbox live gold, headsets... etc]

Mirrorverse slashdot

[Borland]

Where the denizens are supporting Microsoft against an implementation of Linux.

True, to a limited extent, but..

[rucs_hack]

Linux and FOSS have one major trait that microsoft do not have, they quickly adapt to fit a new problem.

So yes, right now this is better then what linux/FOSS could offer, but ill that still be the case in a year?

Re:True, to a limited extent, but..

[Panzergheist]

So yes, right now this is better then what linux/FOSS could offer, but ill that still be the case in a year?

More than likely, yes.

Re:True, to a limited extent, but..

[NotNormal23224]

Linux and FOSS aren't the problem, the problem is Sony's lackluster support for Linux. They cut any homebrew developers off at the kneecaps by not allowing access to the 3d hardware acceleration at all. When Sony changes that then there will be a horserace with development, baut as of now MS gets to sit back and laugh as they provide a workable solution while Sony leaves its fanbase and owners (like me) on cliff.

Re:Case Against their argument: GP2X.

[supermank17]

Except that, Linux on the PS3 doesn't allow access to 3D video acceleration. Its hard to become a gaming monster when the pretty graphics of all the big games won't run on it. Also, the GP2X may have been "successful", but that success is hardly anywhere near the success of a big name gaming platform. Total sales as of October were 30,000 units, while sales of the Nintendo DS are in the 20 million range.

A little leverage anyone

[lyz]

...creating games for both the Windows and the Xbox 360 platforms.
Is it legal for them to leverage their OS monopoly to boot their console like this?

Re:Windows Game Edition

[GNious]

XP SP2 here (Dell Laptop), and I've seen a BSOD this year ... so cannot be joke, and aren't passé

Re:Right about what?

[damiangerous]

They probably have a secret department who's job is to do nothing but monitor Linux and to know it better than the enemy

Oh there's nothing secret about it.

Sony loves homebrew developers...

[British]

..they said so with their last PSP firmware update. :)

Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[tjwhaynes]

I don't doubt for a second that Microsoft has put considerable time, energy and work into making XNA a decent development platform for games on the XBOX 360. Generally, their development tools are pretty reasonable (as long as you don't need to interface them into anything non-Microsoft). So it wouldn't surprise me if XNA actually does what it claims - allows you to make games!

It is interesting to see the Microsoft PR get out there and compare XNA on XBOX360 to Linux on PS3. Of course, if you are going to make this comparison, you had better play up your strengths (easy game creation) and ignore there rest (full operating system, full development suite, lots of libraries available). Restricted to game development, the comparison is probably fair - for the fledging game developer who already has an XBOX 360, XNA probably allows them to put a game together fairly easily, certainly compared with taking a huge and diverse tool kit like a Linux install.

What this PR totally ignores is that XNA allows you to make games. Linux allows you to do whatever you want to do. If you are into game development on Linux and you want something to create games, then a port of Blender to the PS3 and the Blender Game Engine would probably be of most use to you. Or you could use the SDL libraries to get a start on some 2D stuff. Or you could play around with the Quake 1/2/3 source code and try and use that. Or wait for the GP2X games to get ported over. Or you could build a multimedia box. Or a fortune reader!

So, the comparison XNA/XBOX 360 is better than Linux/PS3 is deeply flawed. It may be true (for now) from one angle. It just isn't the whole story.

Cheers,
Toby Haynes

Re:Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[toiletsalmon]

Microsoft took the time and made the conscious effort to create software to allow people to create games in an easy manner. All Sony did was compile a kernel for linux on their black box and shove it out the door. Most of the other stuff you talked about is software written by other people (DVRs, Quake, etc). That doesn't even take into account the supposedly crippled acess to the video subsystem (I don't have a PS3, so I wouldn't know firsthand)

Although your argument about the bad comparison is valid, don't forget that Sony hasn't really DONE much of anything. It's like the difference between a friend lending you his tools versus him helping you change the clutch in your car. There's a substantial amount of "intention to actively help you do cool stuff" on the part of Microsoft in this regard. I think they deserve credit for that. Quite a bit of credit actually.

Re:Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[Anonymous Coward]

What this PR totally ignores is that XNA allows you to make games. Linux allows you to do whatever you want to do.

Wrong. PS3 Linux does not allow access to the GPU so you can use it for anything except making games. This is the whole point. Sony doesn't want Linux games to compete with its taxed, $10-per-copy-to-us-thank-you-very-much game publishing model.

If you are into game development on Linux and you want something to create games, then a port of Blender to the PS3 and the Blender Game Engine would probably be of most use to you.

It can't be done. Not unless you think software rendering is the way to go.

Or you could use the SDL libraries to get a start on some 2D stuff.

As long as you don't want GPU acceleration with that.

Or you could play around with the Quake 1/2/3 source code and try and use that.

No you couldn't.

Or wait for the GP2X games to get ported over.

Er.

Or you could build a multimedia box.

Yes, you can probably just about decode DivX on one of these without months of work trying to shoehorn a codec into an SPU.

Or a fortune reader!

That's about what's left over that is possible and useful to do on a PS3 running Linux.

Actually, you could do some interesting raytracing stuff, if you had the "Open"RT source code. Things might get interesting if they release a binary.

So, the comparison XNA/XBOX 360 is better than Linux/PS3 is deeply flawed.

Yes, it's comparing a whole free game development environment with a crippled version of a basic OS. I agree it's a dumb comparison.

Re:Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[elrous0]

Linux allows you to do whatever you want to do.

Unless you need to access the video card or 3D acceleration of course (a must for virtually any decent game).

-Eric

Re:Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[RexRhino]

XNA allows you to create software with the intention to sell it (with integration into the Xbox Live Marketplace), where as the PS3 Linux is more for hackers.

The vast majority of PS3 users are not going to install linux, and if they do they are not doing it to play games. Where as the majority of Xbox 360 owners also have Xbox live, and can go online to purchase Xbox Live Marketplace games right now.

If you are a small game developer, looking to develope a product for PROFIT, then the Linux PS3 is not an option. Where as, XNA and Xbox Live, it is quite easy - so long as you are OK with only selling on Xbox Live, and Microsoft gives you the licence to sell on Xbox Live.

XNA is designed so that there are plenty of downloadable games on Xbox Live, that Microsoft can sell for a percentage of the profit... and since this is really one of the most profitable kind of sales for Microsoft (Microsoft doesn't have to front anything for development costs, or for packaging, or for marketing, then let the developers take the risk and they simply host the game and collect the money), Microsoft has a huge incentive to allow people to create games for the 360.

Re:Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[tjwhaynes]

If you are a small game developer, looking to develope a product for PROFIT, then the Linux PS3 is not an option. Where as, XNA and Xbox Live, it is quite easy - so long as you are OK with only selling on Xbox Live, and Microsoft gives you the licence to sell on Xbox Live.

You have a lot of good points - XNA is (probably) a good set of tools for producing games for the XBox. Any commercial game developer who exclusively targets the Linux on PS3 is probably going to run out of money sooner rather than later.

Nothing a developer produces via XNA is going to be aimed at anything other than the XBox platform (unless someone provides a porting route to Windows/x86). That isn't the case for a game written using cross-platform libraries for Linux. Assuming that such a game has modest requirements, there is little to stop that game being made available[1] for Linux x86, Linux x86-64, Linux PPC, Linux on Sharp Zaurus, Linux on GP2X, Linux PS3, etc. Now extend that to any software category - on Linux, you have lots of options. My main point was that comparing XNA/XBox to Linux/PS3 is, at best, disingenuous and misleading because it is comparing a game development toolkit for one platform to a general OS environment with apps, utilities and development tools.

Cheers,
Toby Haynes

[1] I work on writing portable code for multiple architectures - it's not hard to write code that works everywhere IF you wrap all the platform-specific parts up separately.

Re:Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[RexRhino]

What you are saying is true... with one correction: XNA is for Xbox 360 AND Windows. What it is trying to target are shareware game companies like PopCap, to create an Xbox version as well as a Windows version for their casual games (and to sell it on Xbox Live, where Microsoft will of course take a 50% share).

Crap

[siDDis]

I'm very happy with developing small games for the Linux platform. SDL is just perfect to write a game that works on Linux, Windows, Windows CE, BeOS, MacOS, Mac OS X, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, BSD/OS, Solaris, IRIX, and QNX. And unofficially supports AmigaOS, Dreamcast, Atari, AIX, OSF/Tru64, RISC OS, SymbianOS, and OS/2(Copied and pasted from libsdl.org). Additionally OpenGL actually supports software rendering so a GPU isn't exactly needed. Super Mario 64 shouldn't have a problem running in software on a Cell. With some skills in googling one can find superb tutorials of how to make a pong game in just a few hours. Of course it's required that you understand the basics of programming. But the great thing about this is that you can actually make games that everyone can play. A lot of users will think XNA is great just because they don't know about the alternatives or think the alternatives just suck. The market in Africa is mine, because my games works perfect with One Laptop Per Child PC's for $100 =)

Re:Crap

[NotNormal23224]

The point is as MS guy is saying the PS3/Linux isn't competition for XNA still stands, with software rendering on the PS3 your games will NEVER come close to a XNA game that is using 3D accelerated graphics. Sure you can port your game to a bunch of platforms but it just won't play well on the PS3 an XNA game can on a 360. That is a major liting factor and that is what puts XNA above Sony. It's not about Linux vs XNA it's about Sony stangling Linux's normal freedoms.

Re:Crap

[kiddygrinder]

heh, there is little chance of even running an n64 emulator on sony's butchered version of linux, software rendering on a 600mhz (that's right, they even shut down the extra processors) pc is pretty much a slideshow. microsoft is crap, but sony is worse and also fucking stupid

Re:Crap

[mrseigen]

I am working on the Mono.Xna project, which is attempting to port XNA to the Mono framework and base if off of the popular Tao framework for .NET (which involves SDL as well as many other libraries). We're very, very early in development, but patches would be admired. We're currently working from the MSDN documentation and trying to stub out classes (most math classes are already done), in preparation for serious development.

Apologies for the spam -- I'm involved because I want more Mac games. How greedy is that?

Re:correct me if i am wrong

[Lissajous]

Short answer: You're wrong.
Less-short Answer: Torque-X is a port of TGB sat on top of XNA.
Long Answer:
XNA is a gaming framework sat on XP or x360.

XNA Game Studio Express is a free (as in beer, not as in code) solution for developing managed directX applications on XP (unofficial support for Vista). You can also deploy your application on your Xbox360 if you pay MS $100 per year. (Note - this also gets you access to lots of content to use in your app).

Torque X is a free (as in scripting code, or as in all code - if you get the Pro/Commercial license, not as in beer) port of Torque Game Builder to XNA. You need XNA Game Developer Studio to develop with it (I believe...been to busy to check it out up 'til now). You don't need to pay a bean to distribute it over and above ensuring you have the correct Torque license.

These are both different things to TGB, although you can certainly release the same game under linux, x360, pc, mac. Porting TGB to ps3 linux, however, will sux0r big style as you only have access to the framebuffer, not the 3d accelerated hardware.

So....you're wrong.

Hope this helps :)

I really wish someone would reply to this question

[Civil_Disobedient]

The single, solitary, lone reason I own an XBOX is for XBOX Media Center. Nothing else comes close to the TiVo-like integration and Firefox-like expandability.

Unfortunately, the built-in 733Mhz. processor is the limiting factor. Friendtech used to sell a 1.4Ghz. Celeron upgrade, but they don't offer it any longer (if anyone has one of these systems, by the way, I'd be happy to buy it off you). At this point, the XBMC developers are looking at ways to use the onboard GPU to do some of the calculations and take all the heat off the CPU, but this is like looking for breadcrumbs when right next door is a fully stocked kitchen pantry (XBOX 360 or PS3). Instead of wasting time developing for a platform that's basically a dead-end, they could be working on a system that will be able to handle HD content by design.

Would developers have to port MPLAYER to C# in order for this to work? It sounds like the PS3 is a lost cause until someone can whip up some Linux drivers for the graphics system. Does Microsoft have similar restrictions to the hardware?

I'm developing with XNA right now

[BShive]

I prefer Java/Eclipse personally to C#/VStudio, but XNA seems to be offering a good opportunity for Indies. Other than Beta1 to Beta2 transition, I've been impressed with the XNA team. I loaded my game on to a XB360 earlier this week and it was amazingly painless. A 'duh' issue where some content files were missing, but only had to do a few minor code changes. An hour later my game was running on an Xbox360! It's hard to believe that Microsoft managed to put such a solid product out. They did it with a very small team, which is why it is only VStudio Express and C# are supported right now. It's nothing like the bloated behemoth that Windows OS development has become. Other coolness is that Remote Debugging works, and works well. I've never had remote debug in hardware or software that worked so painlessly. Create the PC-360 link, start debug, play on the 360, and watched variables will update, you can insert breakpoints on the fly, step through, all that jazz without any problems at all.

Re:I'm developing with XNA right now

[marcello_dl]

It's hard to believe that Microsoft managed to put such a solid product out.

I believe it, and I usually bash Microsoft. It's the effect of not being a monopolist in one area. The Microsoft in the console area is Sony, if the ps3 linux kit won't fully support the hardware. A ps3 with more RAM and full liux would be a killer home computer.

Re:I'm developing with XNA right now

[thopkins]

What's the difference between a ps3 with more RAM and full linux, and a PC with a similar game controller and linux?

Re:I'm developing with XNA right now

[marcello_dl]

That the PS3 would be produced in big numbers with few and fixed hardware configurations, a mac like integration. It would be a good trojan horse to give console buyers, which probably buy consoles not to have the hassles of optimizing the pc to run games, that computing can be painless as running my linux desktop is. That is, once you get past the hurdle of getting a screen that lets you play, see tv, and surf the web, or configuring a dual head setup, one for tv and play games, blu rays (if the format catches up) and occasional browsing, one monitor for pc like use.

Actually i don't ask for more ram, just expandable one.

Re:Windows Game Edition

[Anonymous Coward]

"Seriously. 1999 called and they want their joke back."

Seriously. 1993 called and they want their joke back.

Re:Case Against their argument: GP2X.

[torpor]

Also, the GP2X may have been "successful", but that success is hardly anywhere near the success of a big name gaming platform.

I don't see this argument as being anything more than a brand soapbox. Of course, nobody knows who Gamepark is .. except for 40,000 or so folks who have taken the time to find out, somehow. Nintendo are a +100-year old company, after all ..

But that doesn't mean that the GP2X, as a Linux-based gaming platform, is going to change or go away. GPH are thriving. They have new product plans in the works. There is definitely a major chance for them to build mindshare (developer and player alike) over the next year.. so watch the snowball. See it roll.

Oops

[Megane]

Buried at the end of the article is "the ruling shouldn't have any effect on the imports of future consoles because the levy on both codes now stands at zero". So it's still there, it's just set at zero.

Please don't just throw tl;dr links around without at least pointing out the most important half-sentence.

Wow

[shaneh0]

you're a funny guy!

Re:Wow

[shaneh0]

You really are a funny guy!

He Is Right

[EXTomar]

It is like comparing DirectX to WinCE. One is a API that ogranizes various OS functions in away to facilitate creating of media content. The other is Operating System level for user processes to build any application on. Although one can build a game without XNA/DirectX right on the OS(WinCE/Linux), it isn't as pleasant or extendable. You can't build a device driver in XNA. It is much more "hands on" to OpenGL routines with just the OS and GL/GLX let alone a make a full blown game.

There appears to be different goals between XNA and PS3 Linux. I would fully expect toy games from XNA while on PS3 Linux I expect more toy apps. Keep in mind that neither of these are for serious product development. If you or your company want to make a real product for XBox 360 or PS3 you need a different set of hardware and software tools.

The Santa Factor

[LifesABeach]

This morning I was asked, "should we buy a PS2, or a PS3 for the children?" Wii, Xbox, and PS3 all have price tags that are a little to pricey for this Santa. From my view point, I cannot see homework completed using the Xbox, or the PS3; But the notion is intriguing. It boils down to game title, and compatibility. Microsoft is doing to consumers what IBM did to consumers using Microsoft; That still leaves a bad taste in my mouth,(In both cases). I think it is only a matter of time before Sony realizes that access to their entire box via Linux will finally allow some curiously entertaining games and applications to be created. I can plug my laptop into my LCD TV, same for the game boxes; So which has the better graphics, and feed back? It looks like this Santa has a trip to Fry's, Best Buy, and the Toy Be Us folks; Today.

Re:The Santa Factor

[LWATCDR]

You will probably be buying a PS2 or an XBox360.
WIIs and PS3 are not on the self unless your very lucky.

PS2s have a lot of cheap games. I also really like the games on the Gamecube and they are even cheaper.
If you want a current generation game system that you can walk in and buy you really only have a single choice. XBox 360.
Me. I would wait for a Wii.

Re:Windows Game Edition

[elrous0]

Reminds me of people who still make jokes about "It's a Wonderful Life" being shown over and over again on every channel at Christmas, even though NBC has held exclusive rights for over a decade now and only shows it once or twice a year.

-Eric

Re:Things never change

[SSCGWLB]

1) I would expect MS to sell a solution that works with their own proprietary software. It has the advantage of running on windows PCs and the 360. You might note that there are a couple 360s and Windows PCs in existance, so it has the advantage of working with the largest slice of the pie.

2) Porting a driver won't do you a whole lot of good if your linux distro is running in a hypervisor that controls access to the RSX.
"The Nvidia graphics card is not supported beyond framebuffer mode. This does not reduce the quality of the image, but does not provide accelerated video nor OpenGL support. Refer to the this HOWTO for information about HDMI, Multi-Out and associated TV/Monitor connections." From here.
That protection will be circumvented eventually, but they Sony will release a new firmware (think PSP ) that closes that hole. So, no, PS3 linux isn't competitive with MS XNA.

Free beta testng

[alexhmit01]

Well, if you figure that the Xbox 360 is 1 year into a 4 year lift span, it's 25% over (if it really sells well, it'll get a fifth year, overlapping with the Xbox-3). Getting XNA games out now, for hobbyists, let's them tweak and expand their development tools, get paid doing it (the subscription fee probably covers the cost of supporting the project, not much of a profit center, but should make it a bottomless pit of costs), and does so without the expectation of the pro shops.

The big development shops wouldn't tolerate things being imperfect, hobbyists will. For the next generation, expect some XNA derived system to be one of the main development environments for the console.

There is a long tail effect with gaming. People buy consoles for the oddest reasons. If you are a niche system like the Xbox was last round (people wanting HD games, or the absolute most powerful system, not looking for bulk of games like the PS2 was), you can suffer. If you are a shop making an innovative game, that won't sell HUGE numbers, only the PS2 had the volume (unless you were using a Nintendo character license, then the Gamecube was a compelling system) to sell.

Things like puzzle games are popular, light on the graphics, and can be implemented cheaply. If Microsoft figures out a way to sell $20 games online (taking $5-6 as the publisher cut) without involving retailers, then independents will flock to the system, Microsoft will make tons of money, and they'll position themselves for huge market-share gains.

However, the XNA, at this point in the Xbox 360's lifespan, is simply a test. Real development houses with 1-year + dev cycles wouldn't adopt a new system now, but hobbyists and indies will, and what works will roll into the Xbox-3's dev kit.

Alex

Re:Case Against their argument: GP2X.

[greggman]

Yes, and XNA's market is just a few thousand, just the other XNA devs, since you can't actually reach the LARGE 360 market unless Microsoft blesses you. IF they don't bless you are S.O.L.

Even worse, they claim XNA runs on Windows but sadly it requires a high spec PC. My PC which ran HL2 just fine does not run XNA. So, if you wanted to make the next Mutant Storm or the next Cloning Clyde and sell your product on Windows then XNA is NOT the way to go since the majority of the Windows market will not be able to run it and the odds of Microsoft blessing you for publishing on 360 are exceedingly low.

Worse, you can't even try to get momentum built like say Alien Hominid did for those same reasons. No one to show it to on XNA since you can only show it to other devs and low compatibility with PCs of people that actually buy casual games.

Re:Right about what?

[Intron]

Someone should have asked him if Linux runs better on the PS3 than on the 360. Being a PR flak, he can't admit that the competition does anything that his product doesn't or does it better. He also can't admit running Linux. I think his head would explode.

Re:He would says that, wouldn't he ...

[quiberon2]

If Microsoft use profits from the Office business to sell XBoxes and games toolkits 'below cost' in such a way that it drives Sony and/or Nintendo out of the market, that would represent abuse of a dominant position.

It's really hard. Obviously Microsoft want to grow the market, and good toolkits for collaboratively developed games are one thing towards that. But how do you set the price high enough that it's clear that the business is designed to stand profitably on its own ?

Re:Windows Game Edition

[strstrep]

I bet the GP was talking about Windows NT. NT 3.1 came out in 1993, and it had the BSOD. When Windows '95 came out, its blue screen was different than NT's, and many had the opinion that only NT's version should be called the blue screen of death.

Say it aint so...

[Almahtar]

This may be a great development tool set, but you're going to be stuck with only supporting the PC and the XBOX 360. No linux, OSX, PS3, Wii, or any other kind of gaming platform.

Microsoft would never try to limit developers developers developers development to just their platforms. You're clearly mistaken.

Re:He would says that, wouldn't he ...

[Macthorpe]

I don't think there's anything clear here that suggests they're using Office profits to fund XNA, in fact common sense would dictate that Xbox profits would go into this. I think another story commented the Microsoft is a series of sub-sections each aimed towards their own profits, so it makes more sense than just jumping to the conclusion that the OP made.

Re:He would says that, wouldn't he ...

[Macthorpe]

The OP being you, of course. Damn, I need to pay attention more.

BSOD Lives!

[charlieo88]

Windows XP SP2, using Cisco VPN regularly causes a BSOD about once a month. The system reboots about half a second later. Three quarters of a second later is when the cursing starts.

Re:What PS3 Linux is, and what XNA/360 is

[SanityInAnarchy]

What you're forgetting is that Sony has deliberately crippled Linux, and so we may be motivated to do more than just get it to run. We may be motivated to actually try to get some 3D acceleration.

Linux vs XNA is a dumb comparison

[DragonWriter]

PS3 Linux is aimed at competing with XNA as a game development system. PS3 Linux opens up the PS3 as a general-purpose computer. Saying that XNA is a better game development system than PS3 Linux is true, but kind of weird; like saying that PS3 Linux is a better choice than XNA if you want to use your console as a general purpose computer, or like saying that my Sony VAIO laptop is a better computer than my Chevy Aveo.

I suppose if PS3 Linux ever gets full hardware support, there might be an XNA-like toolkit delivered on top of PS3 Linux for game development that it makes sense to compare to XNA, but really it seems like MS, here, is just pulling an unrelated product with an entirely different purpose to compare.

Its about on the level of saying "Microsoft Excel better for making spreadsheets than Java is."

Re:Linux vs XNA is a dumb comparison

[Shados]

Actualy, it isn't that weird. Both consoles have two totally different offerings, which are strong in different points. Microsoft is obviously pointing out theirs, the same way sooner or later Sony will be yelling all over the place that the PS3 is more versatile than anything the 360 can do because it has a full OS.

I agree Microsoft's wording could have been better, but the idea is still there. If you want to make homebrew game and have to pick between both console's homebrew enabling offering, and that ease of use is your only concern, XNA will do the trick. Thats only one factor obviously, and the decision isn't that easy to make :)

Just to use your last line as an example: Comparing Excel to Java DOES make sense, if you are speaking to everyday corporate accountants, and they ask you "I've heard of this Java thing. Would it make my life easier if I learnt to use it?". Same thing here.

Re:He would says that, wouldn't he ...

[Rycross]

There are no XBox profits. XBox consistently loses money. The original XBox, when alls said and done, lost something on the order of several billion dollars. They can do this because of Windows and Office profits. So, the OP has a point.

Re:Windows Game Edition

[metamatic]

Yup. I even took a screenshot of my BSOD found using XP SP2.

Ms XNA vs PS3 Linux

[HaMMeReD3]

At first, I thought ps3 and linux was a clear cut genius move by sony, and I couldn't wait to get my hands on a ps3 just to enjoy all the linux goodness. That feeling is now all but gone, since I found out yesterday that sony will not open up access to the rsx, which means no graphical acceleration.

Last I checked the "open" cell api was no where near complete either, at least when it came to documentation.

The reason that sony chose linux too is actually completely clear to me, it completely nullifies the possibility of pirating ps3 games (although ps2/ps1 and other consoles via emulation would have been possible had they released the rsx spec). I highly doubt that ps3 games can realistically be run withing a linux system with any loader.

So the choice of linux was made to prevent any possible competition in the profitable game industry/piracy while pretending to care about open source.

Microsoft on the other hand, doesnt give a crap about open source, and they've released a very easy to program platform, which I believe is based on managed direct x which is probably the easiest 3D api available. They have given the little game designers the possibility of actually creating games cross platform that they can profit off of.

Overall, I think microsoft does win this round, because they are allowing game developers to build just that, games for the xbox 360, while sony is allowing all software except games, and they refuse to support linux fully which makes the whole endeavor nearly useless.

Re:I really wish someone would reply to this quest

[Xymor]

You could run VLC, but that's just for playing videos, audio and streams.
The PS3 media center project, with TiVO-like, DVR capabilities(using usb capture devices) are a few months away yet.

Confusion Abated.

[fujiman]

XNA is a (great) game development envrionment

Linux is a (great) operating system

I don't get the confusion.

XNA is pointless anyways

[Vexorian]

Q: How can I share my Xbox 360 game built with XNA Game Studio Express with other Xbox 360 users?
A: To share your Xbox 360 game with friends, four requirements must be met:

* The individual you are planning to share the game with must be logged in to Xbox Live and have an active subscription to the XNA Creators Club
* The receiving user must have downloaded the XNA Framework runtime environment for the Xbox 360
* The receiving user must have XNA Game Studio Express installed on their own development PC
* The game project, including all source and content assets, must be shared with the receiving user. The receiving user then compiles and deploys the game to their Xbox 360.


We are actively working on other ways to allow you to more easily distribute your games and are very excited about the possibilities this will open up for independent game development.
Q: Can I store my XNA Game Studio Express game on my memory card or CD/DVD and share it with a friend?
A: No. Games developed using XNA Game Studio Express cannot be shared through a memory card or CD/DVD at this time.

That's because it isn't competitive.

[the_greywolf]

You can't build general software with XNA. It's tuned for games. It's also only really useful to anyone with a Creator's Club membership.

You CAN build general software on PS3 Linux. It's not tuned specifically for any one purpose. It's useful to anyone, anywhere, anytime, and doesn't require additional investment to share in its benefits.

Of course it's not a competitive solution. THERE IS NO CONTEST.

Re:He would says that, wouldn't he ...

[Macthorpe]

A fair point now that I've done some looking around (never assume anything, ladies and gentlemen), but this still isn't leveraging a monopoly in anything.

For a start, Microsoft have a 'convicted monopoly' (whatever that's supposed to mean nowadays) in the OS/browser market, not in the Office market. Pedantry but I need three points or it won't flow properly.

Secondly, Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on the games console market. There are still 3 major players. If they had 90% or so of console sales, then maybe then there should be some action to prevent them from making it harder for other companies to enter the market. At this moment in time, they are merely using their own funding to try and gain marketshare.

Finally, they're not enforcing a standard on other systems, they aren't enforcing use of a certain tool on other companies, they are merely providing a service for subscribers to their own products. Nintendo and Sony are still free, as they always have been, to do the same. Seeing as MS are expecting a profit on their systems by 2008, they are still merely a competitor. If this can give them the edge over Sony and Nintendo they are well within their rights to do so.

That's just my opinion of the thing, anyway. We can't keep throwing 'monopoly' at MS to prevent them from doing anything at all. Though obviously that makes me pretty unpopular on Slashdot, eh?

Re:He would says that, wouldn't he ...

[Rycross]

That's just my opinion of the thing, anyway. We can't keep throwing 'monopoly' at MS to prevent them from doing anything at all. Though obviously that makes me pretty unpopular on Slashdot, eh? Nope, I agree with your sentiment. I think the level of, "You can't do that because you have a monopoly!" has gotten a bit ridiculous. But the question isn't whether they have a monopoly in the game console market, its whether or not they're leveraging their monopoly to unfairly compete in another market. For example, with the Netscape-IE thing, the problem was that they used their monopoly in Windows to kill off Netscape. But I agree with you despite that point. While they are using monopoly profits to push the XBox, I don't see anything that implies they're doing so unfairly. Their console seems to be priced fairly, and they haven't been pulling any tricks that Sony and Nintendo haven't been doing. About their worst sin is buying out Bungie to get an exclusive killer app, which isn't even a blip on the radar.

Re:Case Against their argument: GP2X.

[grumbel]

The GP2X is nice for what it does, but it almost completly lacks non-homebrew application/games and those homebrew stuff around are often emulators which require illegal ROMs, which makes the GPX2 rather useless to those who search for original, legal and non-emulated content.

For what it does the GP2X is still great, but for most people a GBA, PSP or DS is still the better choice.

What about PS2 Linux?

[r_jensen11]

I thought that was supposed to be a game development platform....

Re:The tumbleweeds give it that rustic look.

[zippthorne]

He lives in a van down by the river.

I mean a cozy, location-enabled waterfront property with independent electrical system.

Re:Right about what?

[NotNormal23224]

While that may be true, it's Sony that is at fault here for locking the Linux using customers out of the kingdom and leaving us in the slums where se can only look but not touch the riches of the platform. Since they sealed off graphics acceleration there is no real usable way to actually make a functional game on the PS3 that uses it's power. So of course MS feels it's not competition, because it isn't. If Linux running on a PS3 gave you access to the RSX graphics chips and system resources, MS would have to run for cover since there is such a large Linux community and the PS3 would have been a big maintstreamed threat, but in the condition it is now the only games we will be seeing are Mame 2D stuff or anything that doesn't overly tax the 2d framebuffer. Sony needs to get serious and stop half delivering or paying lip service to their promisses.

Re:What PS3 Linux is, and what XNA/360 is

[NotNormal23224]

Then the battle of the firmware patches to lock us out again will begin.

Re:I really wish someone would reply to this quest

[Mr2001]

At this point, the XBMC developers are looking at ways to use the onboard GPU to do some of the calculations and take all the heat off the CPU, but this is like looking for breadcrumbs when right next door is a fully stocked kitchen pantry (XBOX 360 or PS3). Instead of wasting time developing for a platform that's basically a dead-end, they could be working on a system that will be able to handle HD content by design. But think of it this way: Xbox 360 still costs $300-$400. PS3, well, we know how much that costs, and even if you've got the money you'll have a hard time getting one.

Meanwhile, you can easily get an original Xbox for $100 or less, and by the time the 360 and PS3 prices drop, Xboxes will probably be even cheaper. At that price, you can put one in the living room, one in the bedroom, and one in the kitchen. XBMC might be featureful enough to be worth $300, but I'd sure rather pay $100 for it.

Re:Case Against their argument: GP2X.

[torpor]

Arguing about the chicken before there's an egg, now thats interesting. Because, the context is: Ability to easily develop for the platform. In that context, the GP2X rules over the other choices.

He's right. not competitive at all

[spiko-carpediem]

From http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/
To develop, debug and/or play games on the Xbox 360, however, you must have an XNA Creators Club subscription purchased directly from the Xbox Live Marketplace. Two subscription options are available: $99 per year or $49 per four months.
XNA Game Studio Express is only designed and tested for Windows XP SP2. Windows Vista and Windows Server 2003 are unsupported platforms
To share your Xbox 360 game with friends, four requirements must be met:

• The individual you are planning to share the game with must be logged in to Xbox Live and have an active subscription to the XNA Creators Club
• The receiving user must have downloaded the XNA Framework runtime environment for the Xbox 360
• The receiving user must have XNA Game Studio Express installed on their own development PC
• The game project, including all source and content assets, must be shared with the receiving user. The receiving user then compiles and deploys the game to their Xbox 360.

Games developed using XNA Game Studio Express cannot be shared through a memory card or CD/DVD

etc... this is definitely not competitive to linux

MOD PARENT UP

[PastaLover]

modding this down is ridiculous. He has a point and is not looking for a flamewar.