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Joystick Port Patented, Now the Lawsuit

Panaqqa writes "It appears that Fenner Investments, a Texas based patent troll, is at it again. This time, they are suing Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo for infringing a patent they hold on joystick ports. Perhaps they felt they needed a "Plan B" now that their lawsuit against Juniper Networks, Nokia, Cisco, Alcatel and Ericsson is not going so well."

222 comments

  1. Hopefully we see more of this by baffled · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's probably the best bet for patent reform to be taken seriously.

    1. Re:Hopefully we see more of this by devnull17 · · Score: 1

      I've been hearing that argument for years. In the meantime, company after company is paying out settlements in the hundreds of millions. I think it's time to try something a little more direct.

    2. Re:Hopefully we see more of this by 'nother+poster · · Score: 1

      Small scale nuclear weapons? ;) Seriously though, for companies it usually is cheaper to pay off the trolls than to fight them over many patents. $5 Mil to make the problem go away, or 7 Mil to fight it? Getting the patent invalidated won't get you that extra 2 Mil back, and I know I'd rather keep that money in my pocket if I was running a company. I foresee many baby step changes to the patent laws and processes over the coming decade to minimize the abuses without putting undue strain on valid patent holders.

    3. Re:Hopefully we see more of this by devnull17 · · Score: 1

      It may be cheaper in the short term to pay someone to go away, but when sharks smell blood, they all come running.

      Yes, I'm aware that sharks don't run. But you get my point.

  2. I'd like to see by p51d007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    someone sue the lawyers bringing up these lawsuits...since they are driving us nuts, and crippling businesses. If there ever was a need for "looser pays" it's because of crap like this.

    1. Re:I'd like to see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      loser* ?

    2. Re:I'd like to see by GrueMoon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Looser than what?

    3. Re:I'd like to see by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      ...someone sue the lawyers bringing up these lawsuits...

      Hmmm, suing people who sue people to show that suing people is wrong

      --
      What?
    4. Re:I'd like to see by kalirion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Quite often the lawyers are only the "weapons" in these cases. It's the clients that need to be sued. Of course there are plenty of cases where the lawyers are the instigators of the BS (looking at you, Jack Thompson)....

    5. Re:I'd like to see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      First off, You are assuming this patent is bogus. The article that I READ didn't provide many details (prior art? other considerations, etc...) It could be a very legitimate patent.

      Second, introducing a loser pays system isn't the answer necessarily. You have to understand that like the American system (each side pays its own costs) loser pays has some disadvantages. The risk of losing even a seemingly meritous case will prevent some meritorious victims from redress, and some lower income clients from being able to afford a suit (this would probably change the current "No fee unless you win" contingency that allows them to sue now). Also, many cases aren't clear as to whom is going to be the winner till after discovery and many more aren't clear until after trial (otherwise a smart attorney/party when faced with a losing case will settle).

      Also, something you may not know is that 95% or so of cases NEVER GO TO TRIAL and are settled out of court, thus a loser-pays system may have little effect on your perceived abuses of the legal system.

      Another factor is that this would introduce a legal strategy for the opposition of racking up HUGE legal bills so that the other side is threatened with a HUGE BILL if they lose - this could be applied as pressure to settle (unjustly).

      Third, lawyers and clients who abuse the legal system can face sanctions including paying the attorney's fees for the opposing side. This is embodied in Federal Rule of Civil Procedure Rule 11. It provides that the lawyer or party must do a reasonable inquiry into the facts of the case and the law to make sure they are at least filing a half-way decent case.

      Again, if this is a bogus lawsuit, expect the Nintendo, et.al. to get sanctions, or get the case thrown out in pretrial procedures.

    6. Re:I'd like to see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm with you.

      And if getting pissed at the misspelling of 'loser' makes me a troll then I'll proudly wear my label as troll.

    7. Re:I'd like to see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps if a few companies filed suit against the USPTO for the injury caused them by the granting of these ridiculous patents we might get patent reform a lot quicker. The USPTO doesn't need to do anything as long as it knows the courts, the troll and some hapless victim will sort out their mess at a later date.

    8. Re:I'd like to see by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      Frequently the politicians making these laws are lawyers themselves. Good luck getting any tort reform passed with them.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    9. Re:I'd like to see by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A bit like killing people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    10. Re:I'd like to see by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      If "loser pays" is so bad, how come it works so well in the rest of the world?

      You should go one step further: Lawyers do not get paid until the final verdict (i.e. after all appeals have been exhausted) is delivered. This would mean it is in nobody's interest to slow down the proceedings (since they aren't getting paid for doing so). Then, of course, you could create a de facto loser-pays clause by each side claiming their own legal costs as part of the settlement.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    11. Re:I'd like to see by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      ...If memory serves...

      --
      What?
  3. Patent Troll list by pr0nbot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wikipedia page on Patent Trolls, with a list that doesn't appear to include the trolls in question guys:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll

  4. And.. by El+Lobo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    people wonder why does Microsoft patent things... Here ladies and Gentllemen, you have the answer. If you have deep pockets, you better defend yourself.

    --
    It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
    1. Re:And.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... I can't wait until they patent the Do Loop ...

  5. Oh the injustice by popo · · Score: 2, Funny


    Haven't poor Microsoft and Sony been vicimized enough?

    How's a poor ruthless-megacorporation supposed to make a buck these days?

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    1. Re:Oh the injustice by ShadoHawk · · Score: 0

      "Sharks" and "Laser Beams" come to mind... But maybe that's just me.

    2. Re:Oh the injustice by sulfur_lad · · Score: 1

      As funny as your sarcasm is, I'd seriously side with the megacorp on this one. Greedy dorks can be much worse than the megacorp they're targeting. They just try to rely on good press for the 'little guy.'

      this really screams "I attack the darkness!"

    3. Re:Oh the injustice by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      But they're suing Nintendo as well. You know, a good megacorporation like Apple.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    4. Re:Oh the injustice by RxScram · · Score: 1

      "I attack the darkness!"

      Or, better yet...

      "I shoot a magic missile at the darkness!"

  6. Prior Art anyone? by Zeek40 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The patent was applied for in 1998, I believe the first atari consoles had joysticks in the late 70s, and I'm sure there are earlier examples. The only thing that the patent application seems to have going for it is the specific use of CMOS fabrication for the circuit. This seems to me like making a keyboard out of metal/wood/some other material not usually used, then trying to patent it. Am I missing something, or will this lawsuit go just as well as their previous one?

    1. Re:Prior Art anyone? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1
      The patent was applied for in 1998, I believe the first atari consoles had joysticks in the late 70s

      This device seems to be for connecting an analog joystick to a digital input by converting the analog postion into a PWM digital signal. It's an analog joystick with the A/D and encoder built-in. Perhaps an incremental improvement, at best. I suppose it eliminates the need to have the A/D hardware on the console itself, so the connection can be all digital (and have fewer pins). You could even retrofit a console designed for digital controls only to use an analog joystick (assuming you write games to read the PWM signal). If they really are the first to come up with this particular scheme, then maybe they have a claim.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    2. Re:Prior Art anyone? by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1
      If they really are the first to come up with this particular scheme, then maybe they have a claim.
      It's possible they come up with something unique that hadn't been done before. But if it was that unique, how did all three companies manage to have it standard by now? Especially since the big differences between this generation's controllers and last involve wireless (Wii's wired controllers are Gamecube controllers), so if the newest consoles infringe, the last have to infringe as well (since the ports are from last generation). So some people come up with some very unique joystick port idea, that people who've been making joysticks and consoles for 20 years haven't come up with, and somehow between the time they apply for the patent and the time it's granted it becomes standard on all major consoles? Either there's bucketloads of prior art and they just copied the design from their Playstation ports, or it's so obvious that someone who's never made a console can figure it out by staring at their Playstation, but, either way, it shouldn't have been patented.
      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    3. Re:Prior Art anyone? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Well the Nintendo 64 came out in 1996 and it definetly had an analogue joystick (Nintendo 64) and it only had three pins for the joystick connection. I would be highly surprised if that was using an analogue connection to the console. Given that and the fact that any research and development was being done prior to the release (duh!), this further invalidates the claim to this patent.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    4. Re:Prior Art anyone? by honkycat · · Score: 1
      If they really are the first to come up with this particular scheme, then maybe they have a claim.
      Except I'm pretty certain they didn't develop the concept of using a circuit like that to convert an analog signal into a digital PWM signal. If they invented that, then I wouldn't dispute the patent-worthiness. However, merely applying someone else's analog-to-PWM circuit to joysticks doesn't seem to me to meet the non-obviousness criterion.
    5. Re:Prior Art anyone? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1
      Except I'm pretty certain they didn't develop the concept of using a circuit like that to convert an analog signal into a digital PWM signal. If they invented that, then I wouldn't dispute the patent-worthiness. However, merely applying someone else's analog-to-PWM circuit to joysticks doesn't seem to me to meet the non-obviousness criterion.

      I don't think the Analog position/PWM conversion is the real meat of the infringement claim -- you're correct, that's been in use long before 1998. The cleverness here (if it is indeed theirs) is modulating that on a digital channel designed to read button presses. Not earth-shattering, but kinda clever. It appears that the design is intended to be a retrofit for consoles desinged only for button-press input.

      I agree that PWM is not new. I agree that it remains to be proven that these guys invented the scheme described here. I agree that analog joysticks are not new and the A/D converters are not new. Again, the only part of the patent claim that I would call novel is the PWM-button thing.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    6. Re:Prior Art anyone? by vtcodger · · Score: 1
      ***The patent was applied for in 1998, I believe the first atari consoles had joysticks in the late 70s, and I'm sure there are earlier examples. The only thing that the patent application seems to have going for it is the specific use of CMOS fabrication for the circuit.***

      I don't know about the Atari, et.al. joysticks, but the classical PC joystick used an Analog ID (the 555?) to generate a voltage dependant interval and counted clock ticks during the interval. The patent is on a somewhat different approach to measuring the voltage, so it might be valid. But, ISTR that joystick ports were integrated into various ICs in the early 1990s. So likely, there IS prior art.

      At most, this is a patent on some joystick ports using a specific technology to process the inputs.

      Moreover, unless Microsoft is manufacturing its own ICs, how can they be guilty of patent ifringement here? Whoever they buy the ICs from may be guilty of patent infringement, but surely that isn't Microsoft's problem any more than your resale of a used car obligates you to pay some patent holder because the car maker neglected to negotiate a patent agreement on the brake pedal hinge.

      Is whatever good the patent system may do (damn little as far as I can see) enough to overcome this sort of whackiness?

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    7. Re:Prior Art anyone? by Count_Froggy · · Score: 1

      If there is prior art, it is from the idea of using a single controller for multiple ranges of control. Anybody ever heard of AIRPLANES??? All you need to see is WWI movies of pilots to know this 'patent' is bogus.

      --
      If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?
    8. Re:Prior Art anyone? by honkycat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps clever, but again I'm skeptical that they were the first to use the PWM into a digital input scheme, largely because their claim is so narrow. If they were the first to realize you can use the PWM signal with a digital-only input line, then there's no doubt you can patent that alone. Since they restrict it as an application for a joystick (and since this was 1998), my gut tells me they took a known technique and patented the specific application.

  7. Patented in 2001? by ElleyKitten · · Score: 0, Redundant

    How the hell did they patent joystick ports when systems with joystick ports had been manufactured and sold for more than 25 years before they even filed?

    --
    "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    1. Re:Patented in 2001? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Informative

      I guess they can ding the Xbox, PS2, Gamecube and maybe Wii. But don't newer consoles use USB ports? The 360 doesn't even have joystick ports, it has (properly licensed and legally clear) USB ports instead.

    2. Re:Patented in 2001? by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1
      I guess they can ding the Xbox, PS2, Gamecube and maybe Wii. But don't newer consoles use USB ports? The 360 doesn't even have joystick ports, it has (properly licensed and legally clear) USB ports instead.
      The Wii has Gamecube ports, but that's not even the point. There have been consoles with joystick ports since at least the mid 70s, yet they didn't even apply for the patent until 1998. I'm gonna go patent platform shoes and then sue all the retro shoe stores. Makes as much sense.
      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    3. Re:Patented in 2001? by wjsteele · · Score: 2, Informative

      Heck, for that matter, the XBox (Classic) uses a USB interface for it's controllers, too. There's just an additional 3.3volt line for other purposes like light pens, etc.

      Bill

      --
      It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!
    4. Re:Patented in 2001? by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      A USB controller still has to have some method of A/D conversion if the sticks are analog. That's what the patent claims to cover.

    5. Re:Patented in 2001? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 1

      You're going to patent platforms? Well, I'm going to patent the heel cushion for shoes. It's going to be something like this.

      The heel portion of a shoe is to be made of a material dissimilar to the material used throughout the rest of the sole. The heel area is meant to cushion the impact of a shoe through innovative use of flexible material and/or use of void space. The cushion is meant to absorb impact through compression of the material and/or flexing into the void space. The cushion material will then rebound to its former shape to return compression energy to the user of the shoe.

      I think that patent ought to cover just about every shoe company for my giant patent infringement lawsuit.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
  8. Hey, remember when Universal Studios... by sesshomaru · · Score: 5, Funny
    Hey, remember when Universal Studios tried to sue Nintendo for infringing on their copyright on King Kong? And then Nintendo won the case, and proved that Universal didn't even hold the copyright on King Kong in the first place?

    Good times, good times....

    --
    "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    1. Re:Hey, remember when Universal Studios... by rucs_hack · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe the primary reason they lost that case is that Universal had in fact argued in a previous case that they did not own the rights to king kong. Not sure of the particulars of the case though.

    2. Re:Hey, remember when Universal Studios... by kalirion · · Score: 4, Informative

      Hehe, hadn't heard of this before, so looked it up. Pretty amusing case, thanks for bringing it up!

    3. Re:Hey, remember when Universal Studios... by coredog64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      They were suing a critic who had insinuated that they were associated in some way with the Jeff Bridges version

    4. Re:Hey, remember when Universal Studios... by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 2, Funny
      lol, it gets pretty silly at points. From Wikipedia:

      In its decision on October 4, 1984, the court upheld the previous verdict. They declared that "The two properties [King Kong and Donkey Kong] have nothing in common but a gorilla, a captive woman, a male rescuer, and a building scenario." Further, the court ruled that "The 'Kong' and 'King Kong' names are widely used by the general public and are associated with apes and other objects of enormous proportions."


      Glad we got that cleared up ...
    5. Re:Hey, remember when Universal Studios... by MorderVonAllem · · Score: 2, Informative

      It was that Universal had argued that it was already in the public domain when they used it for a movie so they couldn't own the rights to sue Nintendo for Donkey Kong

    6. Re:Hey, remember when Universal Studios... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why I call my wang, "King Dong".

    7. Re:Hey, remember when Universal Studios... by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      So that would explain why there was never a rash of lawsuits against elementary schools back in the day over the popular, but silly little song/rhyme that kids frequently chanted out on the playground to prove their coolness...

      King Kong plays ping pong, with his ding dong, in Hong Kong.

      It was already in the pubic^H^Hlic domain.

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
  9. Business based on law suites by Nitack · · Score: 1

    Is it just me or does this speak so clearly to the culture we have developed in the US? The idea that you can only get ahead by suing the pants off of some corporation. It just sounds like this corporation exists only to gather every patent it can get it's hands on and lies in wait for a large company to blunder so they can get rich.

    1. Re:Business based on law suites by ShadowsHawk · · Score: 1

      The ambulance chasing lawyers have created a 'get rich by suing' mentality. I blame both the lawyer and the idiot that thinks that's it acceptable. It's sad that lawsuits have become an acceptable factor in American business.

    2. Re:Business based on law suites by PhoenixFlare · · Score: 1

      Is it just me or does this speak so clearly to the culture we have developed in the US?

      Considering who's being sued....The only thing coming to mind is that old "Bambi meets Godzilla" cartoon, except with the foot slamming down 3 times, each time harder than the last.

    3. Re:Business based on law suites by planetmn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Is it just me or does this speak so clearly to the culture we have developed in the US?

      How does this relate to the culture of the US? Sure, there are some companies that are trying to make money as patent trolls, just as there are always people trying to get a quick buck. But the vast majority of Americans are never a party to a patent lawsuit.

      The idea that you can only get ahead by suing the pants off of some corporation.

      There are a lot of companies out there that innovate and compete in order to get ahead. Just because there are a few examples of cases like the above does not mean that it's the standard operating procedure for a business.

      In typical slashdot style, somebody has taken a situation, and extrapolated it out to now cover the entire population of the United States. The above case sure does seem frivalous, and it in no way represents the culture in the US.

      -dave

      --
      /., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
    4. Re:Business based on law suites by Nitack · · Score: 1
      Considering who's being sued....The only thing coming to mind is that old "Bambi meets Godzilla" cartoon, except with the foot slamming down 3 times, each time harder than the last.
      Hey, I will agree that some of these larger companies have actively pushed some diplorable business ethics in the past. Does that mean that we should bombard them with frivilous law suites?
    5. Re:Business based on law suites by PhoenixFlare · · Score: 1

      Hey, I will agree that some of these larger companies have actively pushed some diplorable business ethics in the past. Does that mean that we should bombard them with frivilous law suites?

      No, it doesn't.

      My post was more to point out the immense humor I find in these patent trolls attacking 3 multi-billion dollar international companies, that no doubt all have armies of rabid lawyers waiting to be released.

    6. Re:Business based on law suites by scoove · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Is it just me or does this speak so clearly to the culture we have developed in the US?

      Not really. Parasites exist in most systems and represent a legitimate (though culturally reprehensible) strategy in game theory, economics, etc. "Patent trolls" exemplify parasitic behavior by trying to obtain resources (cash, reputation) without being responsible for original productive work. They live off of others efforts through a less-than-equitable exchange.

      Think about how long criminal organizations have coerced others through various rackets - Mafia "insurance" rackets (e.g. pay me for fire insurance so Tony here won't burn your business down tonight). To many, this behavior is wrong (it certainly introduces greater inefficiencies), but at a minimal level, it provides the benefit of killing off the weak. Economies really want to see the weak removed as it punishes bad strategy and allows those who made better decisions to attain their reward. Parasitism is also a moderate risk strategy for those that speculate on the patent troll organizations as their capital invested to pay the legal bills is very much at total risk.

      It just sounds like this corporation exists only to gather every patent it can get it's hands on

      The real disappointment is that the U.S. legal system does not provide an opportunity for greater risk than the invested capital paid into these speculative patent troll firms. For example, if this firm loses in the joystick litigation and goes bankrupt, all those who invested in it only lose their capital they intentionally placed at risk. If you put in $100K for your shares, you're out $100K. A "loser pays" judicial system would help reduce repeat behavior as a troll firm once successful would likely rather liquidate and take the gains after one win, rather than expose it all to a second, so this type of reform would not really address the core problem.

      I'd advocate a personal liability provision similar to the attestation liability that public corporation executives now have due to Sarbanes Oxley (e.g. they are personally at risk to significant criminal penalties for the integrity of their company's financial statements). If you really believe in your claims and seek to litigate on the patent issue, you'll be required to place a $500K bond with the court which will be forfeit if your case is determined to be frivolous. Combine this exposure with dramatically increased sanctions against attorneys for polluting the system with this junk (e.g. one year suspension of their license for the first offense) and you'll reduce this parasitism to a more normal frequency.

    7. Re:Business based on law suites by Nitack · · Score: 1

      You don't think this is a cultural norm? http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/19/ 1731210 Want me to dig up more articles? We have plenty...

    8. Re:Business based on law suites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US patent process is easier to game than those in other countries. In particular, most other countries would have been far more likely to have rejected the patent. Without a patent, this lawsuit would get immediate dismissal. With the patent, they're going to litigate for a while.

    9. Re:Business based on law suites by cowscows · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't know man... the local technical college was advertising some interesting courses on the radio this morning. "Owning ideas you'll never implement", "Children say the darndest things (that you can sue their parents for)", and my personal favorite, "Injuring yourself with every-day home objects for fun and profit".

      I went to a real university and have a graduate degree, and I still have to work like, at least 40 hours per week! American Dream my ass!

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    10. Re:Business based on law suites by planetmn · · Score: 1

      A few examples does not make it a cultural norm. Sure, you can pull up a few examples from slashdot about when the system is abused. But now compare that list to all of the companies in the U.S. that do not partake in this sort of behavior. Your list of examples will be extremely short comparitively speaking.

      -dave

      --
      /., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
    11. Re:Business based on law suites by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not really. Parasites exist in most systems and represent a legitimate (though culturally reprehensible) strategy in game theory, economics, etc.

      That's true, but I think the parent was referring to the lawsuit lottery mentality whereby people dream of ways to snare wealthy corporations by suing them in unanticipated ways and thus get rich. In the US, no jury's findings are binding on another's, so if the first jury says, "placing a warning this way would have sufficed", and the corporation switches to that way, the next jury is free to rape it again for insufficient warning. Plus, juries are likely to rule out of sympathy ("Well, the doctor didn't really do anything wrong, but gee, it would really suck to be the patient now, and gosh, those insurance companies sure have unlimited money, so what the hell...") or desire for fame ("Hey, we can't get on Oprah unless we rule against the big evil corporation, and gosh, isn't that plaintiff's attorney so sweet the way he smiles...").

      Does it happen in other countries? Sure, but not nearly as often. For example, Japan has a similarly developed economy but only a fraction of the lawyers per capita and "investment" in the legal system.

      To many, this behavior is wrong (it certainly introduces greater inefficiencies), but at a minimal level, it provides the benefit of killing off the weak.

      Well, it provides the "benefit" of killing off those who are weak *along a certain dimension*, but being weak along that dimension rarely means you're a drain on the economy somehow. Sure, Mr. Viklstein can't defend his bank against arsonists, but that doesn't mean he's a drain on the economy.

      That said, I agree there should be a sort of "loser pays" system for frivolous suits like you've suggested.

    12. Re:Business based on law suites by somersault · · Score: 1

      You've got to be kidding, this is regarded as classic American culture these days by people in the UK. We all have a good laugh, and in fact probably shed an incredulous tear or 2, that people can sue McDonalds for not warning people that their coffee will be hot, or that they can't dry their pets in the microwave and so on. I'm hoping the pet one was an urban myth, but somehow.. I don't think so. It's sickening to always hear of the idiocy and apparent corruption in the legal and political systems over there.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    13. Re:Business based on law suites by planetmn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The real disappointment is that the U.S. legal system does not provide an opportunity for greater risk than the invested capital paid into these speculative patent troll firms. For example, if this firm loses in the joystick litigation and goes bankrupt, all those who invested in it only lose their capital they intentionally placed at risk. If you put in $100K for your shares, you're out $100K. A "loser pays" judicial system would help reduce repeat behavior as a troll firm once successful would likely rather liquidate and take the gains after one win, rather than expose it all to a second, so this type of reform would not really address the core problem.

      I don't like loser pays for one reason, the underdog never has an advantage. If you are an inventor with a patent that a large multi-national corporation steals, what is your recourse in loser pays? Not only do you have to fight an uphill battle because the large company has more money, more lawyers and more time than you, but if you lose (and not necessarily because you are wrong, but because the system isn't 100% perfect), the downside is huge. You now have to pay for the huge, expensive legal team.

      Now to be fair, I don't have a better idea, but I just think that as an overall strategy, loser-pays will be abused just like the current system is.

      Also, I don't believe loser-pays will prevent patent-trolls. Once incorporated, the people behind the troll company are reasonabliy well protected. They win one lawsuit, pay out to the investors, and start up with round two. As the company has virtually no assets, there is nothing that can be taken to pay out should they lose. Now you could change the rules regarding corporations, but that would have widespread effects far beyond the issue of patents.

      If you really believe in your claims and seek to litigate on the patent issue, you'll be required to place a $500K bond with the court which will be forfeit if your case is determined to be frivolous.

      Again, this is an idea that hurts the small inventor. If I have a patent that somebody infringes, not only do I have to fund the suit, but I now have to come up with another $500k bond? Sure, I could try to find some investors, but in a David vs. Goliath fight with a large corporation, good luck. Especially if it were a loser-pays system.

      Something needs to be done. Better checking of patents. Quicker expiration of patents. Maybe required use of patents or they expire much more quickly. But I think the ideas behind loser-pays or bonding hurts the small guy and does nothing to the well organized patent troll.

      -dave

      --
      /., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
    14. Re:Business based on law suites by planetmn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You've got to be kidding, this is regarded as classic American culture these days by people in the UK.

      And obviously if you Brits have that opinion of us, it must be true.

      people can sue McDonalds for not warning people that their coffee will be hot

      Have you actually read about the facts in the case? It's not quite as frivalous as it might seem.

      It's sickening to always hear of the idiocy and apparent corruption in the legal and political systems over there.

      And it's what you hear about because it's sensationalist. Obviously you aren't going to hear about the thousands of small companies that are started and grow to become successful. Nobody wants to read about that, especially when it's thousands of miles away.

      I'm hoping the pet one was an urban myth, but somehow.. I don't think so.

      I think this statement says it perfectly. You have no clue what the reality is, but you are willing to assume that these stories are true.

      Believe me, there are plenty of stories of idiocy and corruption about the UK and other countries that I hear about, yet I am able to realize that, one, these are generally not the norm of that society, and two, that what eventually makes it's way over the pond is generally the entertaining stuff.

      -dave

      --
      /., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
    15. Re:Business based on law suites by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Oh, they should be happy Yamauchi is no longer in charge or there might be a series of mysterious traffic accidents near their workplace.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    16. Re:Business based on law suites by somersault · · Score: 1

      The coffee thing was frivolous. She put the cup of coffee between her legs while driving round and burned herself, it's just plain moronic.

      If it weren't just an american thing, then I'd be hearing plenty of sensationalist stories about crazy law suits from around the rest of the world, and my own country too. Funnily enough, they are all coming from the US. I'm not trying to be racist or play on false stereotypes, it's just true, as can be seen easily from the many /. stories on this type of thing each week??

      When you start having to put warnings like 'product may contain nuts' in a fruit and nut chocolate bar, you know that the world is taking the whole sue-ing mentality too far, either that or people are complete and utter morons. Both are probably true.

      I did actually think that this type of thing was going on in the UK too, just because we seem to mirror you over here, but then after thinking about it, I realised that all these stupid law suits really were just in the US. It's a big place, so more weird stuff is likely to happen, but it is happening too often, and now is regarded as normal for the US legal system.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    17. Re:Business based on law suites by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Of course the USA aren't as bad as their image, but the fact that the image has went from "the land of infinite possibilities" to "the land where you get sued if you don't cover your ass" should be an indicator that something is going wrong.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    18. Re:Business based on law suites by AceCaseOR · · Score: 1

      The coffee thing was frivolous. She put the cup of coffee between her legs while driving round and burned herself, it's just plain moronic.
      She also got second degree burns from said cup of coffee. If it had spilled on her hands, or if she had drunk it, she still would have been burned, just in different places. If the coffee's hot enough to give third degree burns, it's too hot. Furthermore, the car was not in motion - it was parked at the time. (See: Wikipedia entry on the suit)
      --
      Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
    19. Re:Business based on law suites by planetmn · · Score: 1

      Of course the USA aren't as bad as their image, but the fact that the image has went from "the land of infinite possibilities" to "the land where you get sued if you don't cover your ass" should be an indicator that something is going wrong.

      Or that it is an indicator that people in the UK and rest of the world would rather read about the "wacky" things that go on in the U.S. rather than the more mundane stuff that is actually the norm.

      Same thing happens here. People are less and less interested in (and the media is reporting less and less) real facts and news and more the entertaining fluff. Doesn't mean that society has changed that much in terms of actions, but rather has changed in what they want to spend their free time reading.

      -dave

      --
      /., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
    20. Re:Business based on law suites by compro01 · · Score: 1

      But the vast majority of Americans are never a party to a patent lawsuit.

      i remember hearing sometime that roughly 1/3 of americans are party to a lawsuit at least once in their lifetimes. can't remember when though and google turns up too many irrelivant results for it.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    21. Re:Business based on law suites by somersault · · Score: 1

      Okay, well after doing some reading into it, she still held the coffee between her knees while trying to take off the lid. She was also really old and maybe should have just asked her grandson, who was driving the then parked car, for assistance. I mean if you've got a hot beverage you should always be careful, no matter where it is from. Maybe McDonalds' is too hot, I wouldn't know as I never go there :p

      --
      which is totally what she said
    22. Re:Business based on law suites by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Damn straight! Everyone who followed up to Nitack should get together and file a class action lawsuit against him for libel, emotional battery and tortious interference.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    23. Re:Business based on law suites by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      She was also really old and maybe should have just asked her grandson, who was driving the then parked car, for assistance.

      Then HE would have been the one to suffer severe burns.

      McDonald's didn't get in trouble because their coffee was hot. They got in trouble because their coffee was hotter than coffee should ever conceivably be. It was unfit for consumption, and not just the way food and beverages from McD's normally are.

    24. Re:Business based on law suites by dculberson · · Score: 1

      I really think you're just trying to reinforce a conclusion you've already reached. Think about the facts. McDonald's had been cited several times for having their coffee too hot. They had _willfully_ and with _full_knowledge_ of injuries of other customers _refused_ to reduce the temperature of their coffee. Due to their active refusal to comply with the law and many reasonable people's recommendations, this woman suffered third degree burns over 6% of her body and was in the hospital for EIGHT DAYS and spent TWO YEARS going through various treatments. They then refused to even pay the woman's hospital bills.

      The Jury awarded the woman an amount equal to ONE DAY'S coffee sales for McDonalds. The award was intended to send a message to McD: The law applies to you, your actions matter, you'd better take this seriously.

      They later reduced the award, but from my reading, I believe the initial award was fair. In a case like this, the award is not solely to compensate the injured party; it's to send a message to the other party saying "stop." A small amount would not have said anything to McD's - they had already proved that to be the case by ignoring previous settlements in similar cases.

      Anyway, back to your original point: America does have some frivolous lawsuits. We also have 330 million people and somewhat of a culture of entitlement. There are problems. But 99.999% of our citizens will never file a frivolous lawsuit. And the majority of our lawyers would scoff at an attempt to do so. So please, use less broad of a brush to paint us as fools. Well, at least paint us as fools for something more amusing than lawsuits!

      -David

    25. Re:Business based on law suites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The coffee thing was frivolous. She put the cup of coffee between her legs while driving round and burned herself, it's just plain moronic.
      No she didn't, she wasn't even driving. Liar.
    26. Re:Business based on law suites by planetmn · · Score: 1

      I'd actually be surprised if that was the number. Not because it is high, but because it is low given class-action lawsuits. I was recently notified of two in which I can be a "plaintiff." Yet I never had any problem related to the suit. So if everybody contacted about a class-action is considered party to a lawsuit, I'd think the number would be higher.

      -dave

      --
      /., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
    27. Re:Business based on law suites by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Same thing happens here. People are less and less interested in (and the media is reporting less and less) real facts and news and more the entertaining fluff. Doesn't mean that society has changed that much in terms of actions, but rather has changed in what they want to spend their free time reading.

      Which one might see as something going wrong. I didn't say that it's neccessarily the US American culture that's at fault (even though you do have an unusually large number of lawyers per capita); it might just as well be that the media are getting less reliable or that we have become so numb that the only thing that can grab our attention is something like the SCO vs. (IBM|Novell) cases.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    28. Re:Business based on law suites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, we have two aspects to our culture.

      If someone gets in your way and he's bigger than you are - sue him

      If someone gets in your way and he's smaller than you are - shoot him

      The US does not seem to have the same concept of honor as Europe or Japan, which allows peaceful co-existance.

    29. Re:Business based on law suites by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Informative
      You think that "hot coffee" is no big deal probably because you've only dealt with "normal" coffee, which is usually around 150F/50C. (And in fact, that's about how hot it is when it comes out of my drip machine.) McDonald's was serving coffee at almost 200F/80C, which is about twice as hot relative to body temperature as most consumers would expect. What's more, they put it in insulated foam cups with lids that stop evaporation, so the coffee stays that hot for much longer than people expect.

      Almost everyone would exercise a lot more caution handling a pot of water at a full rolling boil on their laps than a cup of coffee. However, McDonalds was selling something that looked just like the latter, but was actually almost as dangerous as the former. Moreover, they had received multiple reports of injuries due to this, and did nothing.

    30. Re:Business based on law suites by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Welcome to 21st Century America. The Old American Dream was to find something that's never been done before and make money out of it. The New American Dream is either to make a disposable version of something that already exists and normally lasts a long time, so that people will have to keep buying new ones; or to find a way to make people pay for something that they already do all the time. Examples of the former include disposable TV sets that can only be used to watch a single programme (available from camp site shops on sites where ordinary TVs are prohibited). Examples of the latter include the Federal Registry of Animal Names (names have been deemed by the Courts to be Intellectual Property, and anyone wishing to give a pet a name similar to one on the registry must pay a fee to do so).

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    31. Re:Business based on law suites by nuzak · · Score: 2, Informative

      > she still held the coffee between her knees while trying to take off the lid

      The fact that neither the cup or the lid was designed for the temperature that McD's was serving the coffee at had something to do with it. Stella Liebeck wasn't exactly the first person to suffer serious burns either. And incidentally, she only sued for the medical expenses -- the jury awarded the large punitive damages (that were later reduced in a secret settlement) because of some pretty outrageous conduct by McDonalds, including but not limited to going to the press and smearing Liebeck publicly as a gold-digger. Personally, I don't think they paid enough.

      I remember getting McDonalds coffee in those days -- the lid would just come right off because the heat from the coffee deformed it. Nasty coffee, but bitter cold winters, and they were along the way to the bus stop.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    32. Re:Business based on law suites by kneejerker · · Score: 1

      OK, just my 5 cents: I used to make fun of this case all the time - ' stoopid USans sueing people for hot coffee, lawl'. Then I read the actual details of the case, and now no more jokes. Its actually a pretty good example of a deserved court cas IMO. Point 2: Over here in Oz theres a big perception of the US as being sue-happy ( which I think is accurate to a certain extent ), but ironically, we have a statisticaly higher rate of civil cases per capita. Significantly lower damages awarded, but stil.....

    33. Re:Business based on law suites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it just me or does this speak so clearly to the culture we have developed in the US? The idea that you can only get ahead by suing the pants off of some corporation.

      You make a good point. This is the only thing left, once you have absolutely nothing to sell but some imaginary "intellectual property" issuing from some imaginary 'intellect'.

      Listen up: you may have a great idea, but THERE IS NO WAY to prove that you are the first or the only person among the billions now alive and who have lived in the past to have that idea. PERIOD.

      You have a good idea? Then MAKE SOMETHING and SELL IT. If you are the first to do THAT, then we can talk.

    34. Re:Business based on law suites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      In typical slashdot style, somebody has taken a situation, and extrapolated it out to now cover the entire population of the United States.
      So what you're saying is, it's bad when someone else "over-extrapolates" (a few patent trolls to all of the U.S.), but okay when you do it (a single Slashdot post to all of Slashdot)?
    35. Re:Business based on law suites by scoove · · Score: 1

      dave writes...
      the underdog never has an advantage

      Sort of the definition of underdog, right? :) As sort of indicated in my post, I also think loser-pays has issues, and concur it won't inhibit patent-trolls (but it will probably impact their risk taking by limiting the entity to a single effort and then liquidation either upon successful or unsuccessful outcomes, which would have a positive effect overall).

      Regarding bonding and your comment that it too impairs the little inventor, you've got to compare it to the status quo for perspective. I've dealt first-hand with litigation where one side was dead wrong and yet they were well funded with very large law firms. They'll wear all but another equal opponent out.

      I don't know that there's an effective solution today for the little guy in either scenario - he's little, lacks any real financial assets to leverage against well funded opponents, and is in most cases simply screwed. What I believe could be dealt with is the well funded trust-fund baby patent troll vehicle. It's a speculative investment game they play at the expense of honest inventors, and represents a much more significant threat (as they are financed for high risk, unlike larger corporations which are usually very risk averse).

      Maybe required use of patents or they expire much more quickly.

      Some sort of system that only recognizes the intellectual property if it is successfully placed into production might be better. Thinking up unique ideas is nothing - what matters is actually figuring how to execute your ideas in the marketplace. That's what the patent system should recognize, but then, the markets already recognize them financially. Perhaps patents really don't serve a useful purpose given an efficient market?

    36. Re:Business based on law suites by somersault · · Score: 1

      That's probably the point - justice is all well and good, but things seem to be blown out of proportion. The burn in that case was still her own fault.. there was another case mentioned where someone got coffee dropped onto them from the drive-through and suffered serious burns, that seems more like something that you can claim for. McDonald's attitude is really bad in this case though, so they do deserve what they get. I consider the case a little less crazy now, especially with the known poor cup design and the fact that the coffee is hot enough to cause 2nd degree burns just from drinking it, but I'm usually sensible with hot drinks and test them/blow on them to cool them down, it should be common sense. But in the US, it you can get along fine - or in some cases a looooot better than fine - without common sense, as long as you have good lawyers.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    37. Re:Business based on law suites by somersault · · Score: 1

      It is a shame, and you are right that they have to be made an example of, though presumably there's a reason for the coffee being that temperature, otherwise they would have lowered it? I tried McDonalds coffee once and it was burned and foul anyway - I don't see how any sensible person could drink it..

      Again, this particular lady suffered harm from the situation, and she really did deserve compensation, but she shouldn't get all of the fine that is imposed on McDonalds, unless maybe it was 100% their fault.

      I find the whole topic kind of pointless anyway since I decided I was never going to go to McDonalds again way before I heard about this. I find even Burger King has superior burgers, fries, 'atmosphere' etc. Unfortunately since it's so cheap and 'convenient', and because people don't seem to care what their food tastes like, they will just keep going there. Actually having visited Canada recently, the fast food there tasted a lot better than in the UK, and had better quality salads, so maybe it's of similar 'high' quality in America.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    38. Re:Business based on law suites by dculberson · · Score: 1

      Oh no, I can promise you, McDonalds food is always, and always has been, 100% pure crap. My reason occasionally fails and I get a craving for their fries, but that's the only thing I've eaten from them in over 10 years. Oh actually, I tried the veggie burger that they have in New York about 6 years back. That tasted like a McDonald's burger.. with soy instead of meat. Still crap.

      I have absolutely no idea how they attract so many customers.

  10. Anyone read Patent-ese? by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't work out what the patent is actually for. Even the abstract is a little vague apart from telling me it's some sort of analogue joystick interface.

    1. Re:Anyone read Patent-ese? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      I did read TFP, and it looks to be a retrofit type device to allow use of analog joystick on a digital joystick port by modulating the joystick position on a digital (button press?) signal. I think it's only for consoles that don't have analog ports already. Newer systems that implement all functions on a USB connection would not apply here.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    2. Re:Anyone read Patent-ese? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      I think you're right.

      Which means it doesn't work in anything like the same way as a modern analogue joysick.

  11. Stupid... by advocate_one · · Score: 0, Redundant

    This method of digitising a position has been basic instrumentation technology for decades... It's obvious to one skilled in the art... fer hecks sake, my old XT had a joystick card that did this RC timebase measuring thing... and that was back in the 80's I think I might still have the joystick card in my bits box... mind you, I don't think there's been any old 8-bit card interface compatible motherboards made for ages either...

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  12. Should be trivial to invalidate by Oddscurity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They're using an integrated circuit to read the voltage differentials, instead of the more common 'clock + voltage comparator'. So yes, I would say this falls under prior art, being that their chip does pretty much what the gameport logic has done since its introduction. And if it doesn't fail on prior art, it fails on the 'obvious' clause.

    --
    Indeed!
  13. very creative by Jon+Luckey · · Score: 4, Informative

    prior art-ish Applie IIe circuit

    http://web.pdx.edu/~heiss/technotes/aiie/tn.aiie.0 6.html

    Whoopie.

    Because Fenner's patent used a tristate buffer instead of an open collector NPN transitor they own this kind of joystick?

    geesh.

    --
    -- 3 events that reshaped the world in the 20th century: WW1, WW2, and WWW
    1. Re:very creative by gmarsh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Precisely. I read the patent, and it describes *exactly* the operation of a 556 timer based PC game port. The only unique thing that I can spot in this patent is listed on the first page - "This implementation provides a joystick port which uses low-voltage CMOS VLSI structures..."

      So to get definite prior art, you just need to find a soundcard with a standard 0x201 gameport address, with the game port hardware implemented in a CMOS ASIC. Which is really easy, considering the patent was filed for in 1998. Even in the early-mid 90's, cheap "AOpen to Zoltrix" soundcards consisted of a single ASIC which handled the ISA or PCI interface, A/D+D/A conversion, 0x201 game port, MIDI interface and the works. And there's a 100% chance that said ASIC is a CMOS process.

      What I find silly is that they're suing Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo over this... I seriously doubt that any of their hardware uses a timer approach for digitizing analog inputs - I'm willing to bet they use true ADC's. The 556 timer hack was useful in the 80's PC days when silicon was expensive and discretes and PCB space were cheap, but today when a $2 PIC microcontroller can have almost a dozen 10+ bit ADC inputs, there's no point anymore.

    2. Re:very creative by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      A tristate buffer is an open-collector NPN transistor (or N-channel FET) and an open-collector PNP transistor (or P-channel FET) with their collectors (or drains) wired together and some arrangement for ensuring that either or neither, but never both, can be conducting at the same time. (An "ordinary", binary logic output has an arrangement which ensures that one transistor or the other is conducting at all times.)

      This should be obvious to anyone who has studied even fairly basic electronics.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  14. Cue their entry in 5...4...3... by Oddscurity · · Score: 1

    How long until a /.er adds them to the list?

    --
    Indeed!
    1. Re:Cue their entry in 5...4...3... by Crizp · · Score: 1

      Why didn't you do it then?

  15. Prior art? by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't know the exact circuit details but Commodore Amiga joysticks worked in a similar way, i.e. by timing the decay of a capacitor rather then using an a/d converter.

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:Prior art? by Smidge204 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Right now, it only seems that these cases will show if the accused party actually infringes on the patent or not.

      What we need, as part of patent reform, is the ability to call BS on a patent during these lawsuits, which puts the infringement claim on hold until the patent itself is reviewed and debated over. Start a seperate court case to review the patent, with both parties able to produce evidence and expert testimony about the technology in question. If the patent is ruled bogus, then it should be invalidated on the spot and the infringement suit dropped.

      That would cull a lot of bogus patents and maybe discourage filing them in the first place.
      =Smidge=

    2. Re:Prior art? by Emil+Brink · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Clarification: the Amiga analog joysticks worked like that, yes. The default joystick used on the Amiga was digital, though, and just used five (later more) switches to generate the up/down/left/right/fire signals. :)

      --
      main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
    3. Re:Prior art? by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good idea. Remember, it's harder to defend a court order preventing a technology from being distributed if the only damages are loss of revenue, which is easy to correct later if it turns out it really infringes a patent. In other words, a "patent"holder will never ABSOLUTELY need the infringement to stop RIGHT NOW.

      Also, it would be nice if a patent could be voided on the grounds that it was deliberately worded to obscure similarity to prior art.

    4. Re:Prior art? by Zordak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you are sued for patent infringement, your attorney will file a motion for summary judgment, and one of the theories will be that the patent is invalid as a matter of law. If it fails as a summary judgment motion, it will go before the jury. The validity of the patent WILL get litigated if the case doesn't settle. Forcing the parties to put off litigating infringement until after they settle the validity of the patent would be ridiculously inefficient and more costly for BOTH parties. The problem is not the inability to challenge the validity of a patent in court. The problem is that obviousness under 35 U.S.C. s. 103 has become such a hyper-technical non-hurdle that it is nearly impossible to invalidate a patent once it has been judged novel. Until we revise section 103 to strengthen obviousness, this will continue to happen. Fortunately, the weak obviousness standard is hurting big, monied companies with powerful lobbies (like Microsoft and Sony). So you can bet things are going to change.

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    5. Re:Prior art? by thebdj · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, I would argue that it is not the laws faults. At least not the way it is written. As written, 35 USC 103 explains obviousness in relatively good terms. Obviousness did not become an issue until relatively recently. I will not fault SCOTUS in Graham v. Deere, because the requirements they set forth were not very restrictive. The issue came later when the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) including the requirement that the joining of the two items must be taught in the prior art.

      This is an extremely rare thing and actually makes the requirement hard to fulfill. It actually limited the Graham Factor, "one of ordinary skill in the art," practically eliminating it. I do not think the CAFC truly thought this out before making a decision, because if you already the idea to combine the two technologies (and mention as much in your patent specification) then you would almost certainly have claimed it, which would make it a 35 USC 102 violation, something that is really easier to defend for a Patent Examiner.

      I believe we are still waiting to see the end result of KSR v. Teleflex before SCOTUS. If SCOTUS rules with KSR and essentially says the CAFC over-stepped their bounds, then you could be looking at the mass invalidation of thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of patents. You mention the standard is hurting Microsoft and Sony, but it actually is helping another industry with as much if not more money. The pharamaceuticals and bio-tech companies love the standard as it is because it helps them get a lot of patents on new drugs passed. I believe if you review the documents from KSR v. Teleflex, you will find support for KSR's writ from a group that included Microsoft, while the big pharma's filed in opposition (supporting Teleflex).

      --
      "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
    6. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All Gameport PC Joysticks worked like this. This was quite annoying since it required calibration for every game, and many games failed when the (cpu wasting) timing loops overflowed in the time the capacitor took to drain.

    7. Re:Prior art? by pipatron · · Score: 2, Informative

      Clarification 2: Timing the decay of the stored charge in capacitor is an A/D-converter.

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    8. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      In other words, a "patent"holder will never ABSOLUTELY need the infringement to stop RIGHT NOW.
      Of course there may be cases when a patent holder will need the infringer to stop - for instance, you both actually produce a product. However, your competitor looks like he may take significant market share - you have to get the infringement stopped or you risk losing your revenue stream, and potentially not have the money to win the lawsuit. But remember, this only ever holds for companies that actually use their patents for something - not patent trolls.
    9. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The issue came later when the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) including the requirement that the joining of the two items must be taught in the prior art.

      In defense of the CAFC..
      CAFC has allowed for an implicit teaching of this prior art.

      The problem of obviousness is really too complex to be solved by a bright line rule.

      I also have noticed that the CAFC usually draws an unspoken flexible rein on obviousness and claim construction depending on the perceived worthiness of the innovation being contested.

      The patent system is cumbersome, imperfect, costly, etc. but it is also the best system devised so far for rewarding innovation.

    10. Re:Prior art? by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      there may be cases when a patent holder will need the infringer to stop - for instance, you both actually produce a product. However, your competitor looks like he may take significant market share - you have to get the infringement stopped or you risk losing your revenue stream

      Did you read my previous sentence before the part you quoted? That scenario wouldn't justify shutting it down RIGHT NOW because, like I said in that sentence, the harms are reversible -- you can always seize the infringer's revenue or assets later to make up for the loss of revenue if it turns out he indeed was infringing. That's the point -- just because there's a harm doesn't mean you need to stop it right now.

    11. Re:Prior art? by sribe · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you are sued for patent infringement, your attorney will file a motion for summary judgment, and one of the theories will be that the patent is invalid as a matter of law. If it fails as a summary judgment motion, it will go before the jury. The validity of the patent WILL get litigated if the case doesn't settle. Forcing the parties to put off litigating infringement until after they settle the validity of the patent would be ridiculously inefficient and more costly for BOTH parties.

      Actually, the process developed by the patent court was that a granted patent was assumed to be valid until proved otherwise, therefore what would in fact happen is that if the evidence that you infringed was strong enough, regardless of possible invalidity of the patent, the court would enjoin you from distributing your product while the case was heard!!! This is why RIM settled with NTP, remember? Of course there was a case at the Supreme Court at that time challenging the patent court's ridiculous procedure, and SCOTUS slapped down the patent court just a couple of days after RIM paid off NTP. And now new cases will proceed rather more like you describe.

      And as a post a few down from yours points out, there is currently a case before SCOTUS that may result in restoring sanity to the evaluation of prior art and non-obviousness...

    12. Re:Prior art? by MoxFulder · · Score: 4, Informative

      The "game port" joysticks for old x86 boxes worked the exact same way! The joystick axis was basically a variable resistor, and its position would vary the time constant of an RC circuit. The voltage would drain at a rate dependent on the joystick position, and you used a do-nothing timing loop to wait for the voltage to fall past a threshold and flip a bit.

      I remember trying to learn to program the PC joystick in assembly language around 1993, and it was a real pain in the ass to get it right. You had to constantly poll the joystick and put in all kinds of delay loops. Apparently, proper analog-to-digital converters were very expensive when the PC game port was designed, and so this crude circuit design was used instead. See the wikipedia article for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_port#Circuits

      Bottom line: this patent ain't new technology. In fact, it's OBSOLETE technology. There are much better ways to get an analog measurement from a joystick, and there were even in 1998 when the patent was filed.

    13. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you read my previous sentence before the part you quoted? See the problem with your sig (Please read my posts before responding. It's fun. It's like reading, but ... of my posts.) is that if people aren't going to read your posts, there's less of a chance that they're going to bother to read anything connected to that post, example: sig.

    14. Re:Prior art? by mavenguy · · Score: 1

      One reason why the CAFC has really run with the the burden of the "suggestion" test for obviousness at issue in KSR is the presence of one of the former Judges on the CAFC when this was make part of case law on section 103.

      Giles S. Rich, who was an active judge on the Court right up to his death in 1999 was one of the two co-drafters of the major revision of the patent laws passed by Congress in 1952. One of the products of that effort, section 103, was a codification of the previous judicially created "lack of invention" and the like. Thus, after being nominated and confirmed to the CCPA and then moving with all the CCPA judges to the CAFC his interpretation of the meaning and application of this section has been given great weight.

      The CAFC had no problem "interpreting" Graham to include this test; we will now see if the SCOTUS will agree with this.

    15. Re:Prior art? by iabervon · · Score: 1

      Actually, what we need is a substantial penalty for badly losing an infringement lawsuit you bring. As it is, the worst you can do by suing somebody is to have to pay their court costs and legal fees, and this only happens if the patent is invalid and you're demonstrated to have known it. (Sure, your patent can end up invalidated if it gets reexamined, but if it was bogus in the first place, you've only lost an asset that should have been worthless.)

      If you sue someone for infringing your patent, and you're found to have been willfully misleading to the PTO in getting the patent, you should be liable to the defendants for triple the relief you requested, and the law firm that represented you should be sanctioned.

      This would mean that it would be net beneficial to be sued by a patent troll, because you'll probably have an easy case, the plaintiff is likely pro se and incompetent, you'll recover court costs, and probably get any assets the troll happens to have. There'd also be little reason to settle or license bogus patents, because you'd be able to make money infringing them.

      The current situation is kind of like how it would be if people convicted of robbing banks only had to give back the money.

    16. Re:Prior art? by callmetheraven · · Score: 0

      If the patent is ruled bogus, then it should be invalidated on the spot and the infringement suit dropped.

      That would cull a lot of bogus patents and maybe discourage filing them in the first place.

      I would also like to see the word "DOUCHEBAG" tattooed on the patent troll's forehead, as a further discouragement towards frivolous/obvious/prior-art patent filings, and as a general warning to the public at large.
      --
      You can have my SIG when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
    17. Re:Prior art? by tricorn · · Score: 1

      Yup. I made my own version of this circuit in 1974-75, using a standard one-shot flip-flop (I don't remember if I used a 555 or what), and an 8-bit counter that stopped and latched and reset when the timer circuit triggered. It used an 8080 to read the latched value, which then set two different counter chips to turn on/off a video signal; yes, I was trying to do a mostly-software version of Pong, using straight TTL logic to produce a pseudo-NTSC monochrome video signal. It wasn't fast enough to put two different vertical lines on the same scan lines, much less put the "ball" on the screen, but it was a fun project nevertheless. My first blown-up power supply capacitor, figuring out just how far off-spec a TV set would accept sync signals, learning to use an oscilloscope, etc.

    18. Re:Prior art? by jlowery · · Score: 1
      > and the law firm that represented you should be sanctioned.

      IANAL, but I don't believe this would fly in the U.S.

      Lawyers can be disbarred for criminal conduct, but they're bound by law to represent their clients to the best of their ability. If you threaten sanctioning attorneys for representing clients that may lose thier case, then you stiffle a cornerstone of the legal system: that plaintiffs have a right to due process when hearing their claims.

      --
      If you post it, they will read.
    19. Re:Prior art? by ncc74656 · · Score: 1
      I don't know the exact circuit details but Commodore Amiga joysticks worked in a similar way, i.e. by timing the decay of a capacitor rather then using an a/d converter.

      The joystick port on the Apple II uses a 555-compatible timer to dump a charge into an R/C network and count (with the host processor) how long it takes for the charge to run out. That's 30-year-old prior art.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
    20. Re:Prior art? by Shads · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Translated for truth:

      "The patent system is cumbersome, imperfect, costly, etc. but it is also the best system to stifle innovation by anyone not able to field a thousand lawyers to protect themselves from someone who patented an obvious technology after it had been in existence for 20 years due to an idiot in the patent office."

      --
      Shadus
    21. Re:Prior art? by JazzLad · · Score: 1

      Tattooed twice, once forward for others, once backwards as a reminder to the individual when (s)he looks in the mirror.

      --
      "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
    22. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From memory, amiga joysticks were generally leaf switch based and had a pure binary value for each cardinal direction. But they did share the port with the mouse, which operated the same way as the original bus mouse. But given that the unit shipped with a mouse and no joystick that would make the primary purpose of the port a mouse port.
      So in this case the patent couldn't apply could it?
      More interesting is that fact that the patent holder doesn't seem to have done their homework. Microsoft never sold PCs. They sold devices that could be used on a PC joystick port, so they didn't infringe on the port concept. And those devices that thety sold that had a controller port didn't infringe either since the xbox controller port is really a USB port with a different shape.
      I think a similar case may hold for the PS controller port as well.
      As for Sun, did they have joystick ports? I mean, what would be the point...

    23. Re:Prior art? by TekPolitik · · Score: 1

      Lawyers can be disbarred for criminal conduct, but they're bound by law to represent their clients to the best of their ability.

      Certainly outside the US lawyers can be sanctioned for conducting a case that had no real prospect of success. In New South Wales they even have to swear - on penalty for perjury - on filing a case that the case has a real prospect of success. The right to representation does not go as far as allowing people to use lawyers to harass people in court in cases entirely without merit.

    24. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Also, it would be nice if a patent could be voided on the grounds that it was deliberately worded to obscure similarity to prior art.

      It would be even better if the patent filers would be charged with fraud for filing patents that have such obvious prior art.

    25. Re:Prior art? by jcochran · · Score: 1

      You need to go back even further. The Apple ][ used that same method.

    26. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're talking about the affirmative defense of invalidity. Any lawyer worth his salt automatically lists invalidity as a defense in his answer to a patent complaint. Always. Without fail. The ones who don't, get malpractice suits. Even if they don't claim invalidity, it may not matter, since courts are free to treat invalidity separately from infringement. This practice has not slowed the trolls, since they expect it when they file suit. In fact, they expect it five years ahead of time when they file or buy patents in the first place, since it's part of their business model. They aren't stupid, just annoying.

    27. Re:Prior art? by Zordak · · Score: 1
      a granted patent was assumed to be valid until proved otherwise, therefore what would in fact happen is that if the evidence that you infringed was strong enough, regardless of possible invalidity of the patent, the court would enjoin you from distributing your product while the case was heard
      More precisely, an issued patent is presumed valid, meaning the burden is on the patent defendant to prove the invalidity. If we end up with a paucity of evidence either way, the presumption wins. The case I assume you're thinking of is eBay, Inc. v. MercExchange, LLC, 126 S.Ct. 1837. The rule was not quite how you describe it. The CAFC had held that once you had a finding that a patent was valid and infringed, a permanent injunction is essentially automatic. The Supreme Court struck that down. They said that a permanent injunction in a patent case should be based on the equities of the situation just like any other permanent injunction. That took away a favorite tool of patent trolls---the threat of an automatic permanent injunction. But it doesn't eliminate what you described. If the District Court finds that a patent holder is likely to prevail on the merits and that it is equitable to grant a preliminary injunction until the case is concluded, it can and will still do that. Which means you will be enjoined from distributing the thing while the case is heard. And that's a good thing if you're a small-fry inventor and Microsoft or somebody is trying to strong-arm you out of your technology.

      Teleflex notwithstanding, I believe that section 103 could still use a revision so that merely doing something well known in a new medium or with a novel technology is prima facie obvious. This would have killed NTP's claims to SMTP over wireless. Otherwise, we can look forward to patents like "sending e-mail on a quantum computer" or "surfing the web on a high-end network-connected refrigerator."
      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    28. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Apparently, proper analog-to-digital converters were very expensive when the PC game port was designed

      The BBC Micro came out at about the same time as the IBM PC in late '81, was considerably cheaper and had a proper analogue port built-in.

      It also had analogue joysticks that didn't self-centre so they were almost impossible to use. But you can't get everything right.

    29. Re:Prior art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I don't know the exact circuit details but Commodore Amiga joysticks worked in a similar way, i.e. by timing the decay of a capacitor rather then using an a/d converter.
      The joystick/paddle port on the Apple II worked the same way, long before the Amiga.
    30. Re:Prior art? by XO · · Score: 1

      in the Amiga day, all we had were digital sticks....

      --
      "Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
  16. It's been done before by rongage · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As near as I can tell from the text of the patent, this patent troll has patented the use of an Analog to Digital Convertor for converting the analog output of a joystick into a digital signal. I'm not 100% certain but it sounds like either an integrator type circuit or a PWM type circuit. The intriguing bit is the mentioned use of a VLSI (Very Large Scale Integration) chip as a part of the design. This could mean utilizing any of the large fabric chips from the likes of Altera, TI, or Lord knows how many others are in the market nowadays. Heck, this could be interpreted to include the PIC chips in common use nowadays.

    I'd have to look in my old college electronics book (Electronic Communications - vol 5 by Schrader) to see, but I think these types of ADC circuits were discussed even back then (circa 1985). If not, I know the Peavey DECA series of digital power amplifiers (circa 1988) utilized an integrator type ADC for doing converting the analog audio signal to a series of digital pulses (PWM) used for driving the MOSFET finals.

    --
    Ron Gage - Westland, MI
    1. Re:It's been done before by mikael · · Score: 1

      Analogue to Digitial circuits were around in the late 1970's - The Atari console system supported paddle controllers.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    2. Re:It's been done before by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1
      As near as I can tell from the text of the patent, this patent troll has patented the use of an Analog to Digital Convertor for converting the analog output of a joystick into a digital signal. I'm not 100% certain but it sounds like either an integrator type circuit or a PWM type circuit.

      I believe that's exactly what it does. That's not novel. What could be novel is that they seem to be putting the PWM signal on a button input to the console, giving a game with the ability to read the PWM as a joystick postion an analog joystick. This is some extrapolation on my part, but that's what I think they're claiming infringement on.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
  17. This is the patent office's fault by RobK · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The fact that these non-novel, obvious patents with prior art are being issued decades after first use.

    I understand that business need to protect themselves, and I'm a lot more forgiving of hardware patents (because that make sense) but reading the patent all I see that MIGHT be new is the power saving circuitry rather than a novel joystick connection.

    They do need more examiners and the second patent applied for each year should cost twice as much as the first to file. (This would curb blanketing the system hoping that one of them sticks).

    This is my theory and it's mine.

    1. Re:This is the patent office's fault by SewersOfRivendell · · Score: 1
      This is my theory and it's mine.


      Patented?
  18. Re:This is junk by PFI_Optix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From the patent:

    Filing date: Jul 10, 1998

    Does more really need to be said?

    --
    120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
  19. Prior art... Nintendo 64 by gozar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Their patent applies to analog joysticks. It's a method of sending the information of a joystick's position as a digital pulse, therefore requiring less wiring for multiple analog sticks and buttons. The controller could send the information about the various states of the buttons and joysticks encoded as a digital stream.

    Unfortunately for them, they applied for the patent in '98, long after the N64 was released. I don't know for sure, but since the N64 controller only has (IIRC) 3 wires in the cable, they must be using something like what this patent describes.

    It's interesting that they applied for the patent two months after the release of the dual-shock controller for the PS1. IMO, someone saw the dual shock and patented the idea on how it would work.

    --
    What, me worry?
    1. Re:Prior art... Nintendo 64 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a description of the N64's serial controller interface, which includes " two 8 bit 2's-complement segments showing the position of the analog stick along the X and Y ax", and was available in 1996, according to wikipedia.

  20. Aren't the approaching it wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they want to defend themselves from this, get patents abolished, don't *pay* to get a patent and make patent trolling more profitable (since the more patents there are, the less they will be looked at).

    Especially with the EU, why are MS asking for patents to be avaialble THERE? Surely, even if they are too late in the US, they can ensure that the rest of the world is OK.

    Taking this action together with the threats they have made in the past, I suspect that patents aren't a defensice proposition for Microsoft.

    1. Re:Aren't the approaching it wrong? by Alchemar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that the current system needs a complete overhaul, but there is a very good mechanism in the current system for eliminating the need of defensive patents. You don't have to patent before they do, you don't have to abolish patents, you just have to publish the idea. If you make a discovery that you are not going enforce patents on, but want to protect yourself from someone else patening it, you just have to publish it, and it can't be patented. Defensive patents only work against other large companies that actually produce a product. If they threaten your product with a patent violation, you threaten thier's. With a patent troll that doesn't make anything, you don't have the leverage. Publishing puts the idea in the public domain, is much cheaper, and is much easier to defend in court. You aren't comparing the specific details of your patent with the details of thiers, you are comparing the specifics of their patent with the general idea that you published.

    2. Re:Aren't the approaching it wrong? by ScrappyLaptop · · Score: 1

      Please elaborate. Let's say I come up with a new way to increase auto mileage, to use the patent cliche. If I publish -and what is the definition of publish, please- but I do not patent my idea, what rights do I have to ownership of said idea?

    3. Re:Aren't the approaching it wrong? by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      Please elaborate. Let's say I come up with a new way to increase auto mileage, to use the patent cliche. If I publish -and what is the definition of publish, please- but I do not patent my idea, what rights do I have to ownership of said idea?

      You would have no rights to the idea, it would become public domain.

      But at least nobody else could keep YOU from using your idea.

      And publication, for the purpose of prior art, means that you have given the public enough information about your idea so that they could presumabely follow up on your idea and build it, or test it, or whatever. Simply saying, "I have an idea" is insufficient, but saying "I have an idea, and here is some detail as to how it works," followed by said details, may very well be sufficient to put the "idea" into the public domain and keep someone else from patenting it.

      The problem with simply publishing an idea, however, is that if someone can show that they invented their invention independently before your publication, they still can probably get a patent -- whereas if you had gone ahead and filed your patent, if there was another application in the pipeline about the same time, then the USPTO might start what's called an "interference" proceeding, and that will determine who is really first. In other words, because patent applications are confidential (for at least the first 18 months), publication MAY not be sufficient to get your idea out in the public domain so that you can freely use your idea without having to go the patent route.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  21. Joy, Home-grown patent trolls by andphi · · Score: 2, Funny

    These people give Texans a bad name. Is there any way I can mail these creeps a bushel of rotten tomatoes? I probably live too far away to throw them myself.

  22. Capping the maximum damages awarded. by Oddscurity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since 'Mutually Assured Destruction' doesn't work when defending against a patent troll (they don't produce anything that can infringe your patents), maybe it would be a start to limit the maximum amount of awarded damages to $5M (for example.) If a patent of a legitimate inventor is ever infringed by some big business, the settlement is more than enough for them to retire and continue inventing if they so choose. Wouldn't it however remove the incentive for trolls, spending easily as much as $5M in the hopes of getting awarded $200M?

    Then as an encore someone might be able to convince USPTO there isn't such a thing as software patents. Good reading materials: An industry at risk, So Small a Town, So Many Patent Suits

    --
    Indeed!
    1. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except that that would mean that companies that could afford $5M easily could intentionally infringe on as many patents as they liked, even drawing the legal battle out long enough to bankrupt the holder.

    2. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That basically gives big business free reign to steal any technology that could be valued at more than $5 million - which is damn near any patent that is worth holding (and a lot that aren't). Now, I know some people on /. call for the total elimination of the patent system, but this probably wouldn't be the best way to kill it.

      <pedant>when talking about money M usually means thousand, and MM million.</pendant>

    3. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by fotbr · · Score: 1

      when talking about money M usually means thousand, and MM million.

      True for parts of the world, but not other parts.

    4. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by stiggle · · Score: 1

      Instead of limiting the awarded damages, get the patent holder to put up a bond of a few million per target when they lodge the case. It should limit them a bit if they loose a few million every time they lodge a troll case.

    5. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by 'nother+poster · · Score: 1

      Nah. Because a valid small time inventor could be harmed by this if a patent is invalidated due to an overzelous court, or lack of funds to fight the case in court. There doesn't seem to be a GOOD solution.

    6. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by Shads · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good solution would be a patent is valid for 10 years from its inception, after that it becomes PD and is never patentable again.

      Most of the patents we see today are stupid, transmitting email wirelessly over a tcp connection...durr. They're granted because the examiners have -zero- clue what they're doing in most cases... and if you don't like the examiner you got, feel free to resubmit till you get one stupid enough to grant your inane bullshit.

      --
      Shadus
    7. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by plantman-the-womb-st · · Score: 1

      Really? I was unaware that Roman numerals had different meanings in different parts of the world. Interesting.

      --
      Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
    8. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that the basis is Roman numerals. If the basis for the shorthand is metric units than K is thousand, M is million, and B is billion.

    9. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by plantman-the-womb-st · · Score: 1

      Sorry, wrong again. And so you don't get confused again in the future, here is a chart to help you understand the metric system and it's symbols.

      Factor, Name, Symbol
      10(24), yotta, Y
      10(21), zetta, Z
      10(18), exa, E
      10(15), peta, P
      10(12), tera, T
      10(9), giga, G
      10(6), mega, M
      10(3), kilo, k
      10(2), hecto, h
      10(1), deka, da
      10(-1), deci, d
      10(-2), centi, c
      10(-3), milli, m
      10(-6), micro,
      10(-9), nano, n
      10(-12), pico, p
      10(-15), femto, f
      10(-18), atto, a
      10(-21), zepto, z
      10(-24), yocto, y

      --
      Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
    10. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      replace the Jury with a /. poll, it's so obvious:
      1) Evil patent-troll plaintiff with a patent on obvious technology wins
      2) Poor defenceless defendant wins
      3) Shoot all the lawyers, we all win
      4) Cowboyneal wins

      --
      FGD 135
    11. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by TekPolitik · · Score: 1

      Most of the patents we see today are stupid... They're granted because the examiners have -zero- clue what they're doing in most case

      Which raises an interesting possibility and maybe a US lawyer can indicate if it's ever been tried or is for some reason infeasible. If the patent examiner had no basis on which to conclude the patent is valid, it may be open to an administrative law challenge setting aside the decision of the examiner in granting the patent as ultra vires (beyond powers) on one of several very pedestrian rules of administrative law. It wouldn't even be necessary to show the decision was wrong to do this - only that the decision of the patent examiner flawed for reasons such as taking into account irrelevant considerations, failure to take into account relevant considerations, did not have any rational basis, or was so unreasonable that no person acting reasonably would have granted the patent in such circumstances. Unless these administrative law rules have been overridden by statute somewhere, then if patent examiners are really that clueless about the patents they are examining almost every patent granted in recent years could be blown away by applications for certiorari against the original decision to grant the patent and the patentee would have to go back to the application process.

    12. Re:Capping the maximum damages awarded. by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, yeah don't ask me where I got the B out of it. Brain fart.

      Still, I rarely see MM used for millions, but rather the K, M, B notation.

  23. Laziness by Oddscurity · · Score: 1

    I couldn't find an article on the company in question to link it to, and couldn't be bothered to write one?

    --
    Indeed!
  24. ...2...1... by michaelwigle · · Score: 1

    Done and done. (And my first attempt at a wikipedia edit)

  25. Fixing the system by bcharr2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You would think it was possible to put our nations academic institutions into the patent review loop.

    Company applies for patent, patent judge receives comments from university departments focused on that type of technology, judge reviews comments to verify if this is a revolutionary new idea worth granting a patent to or not.

    I also liked the suggestion that the cost of patenting scale up the more patents one files within a given timeframe. This should keep a company from essentially conducting a "denial of patent review" attack by filing so many similar patents that the academics will simply give up participating in the system.

    I would also like to see some sort of financial pentalty applied to corporations who attempt to patent existing work. In this case, if the court finds the patent should never have been granted, I would accompany the dismissal of their lawsuit with a hefty fine. Force companies to conduct solid research instead of just filing some paperwork and seeing what they can slip through the system.

    1. Re:Fixing the system by kansas1051 · · Score: 1
      Company applies for patent, patent judge receives comments from university departments focused on that type of technology, judge reviews comments to verify if this is a revolutionary new idea worth granting a patent to or not.

      I agree that better examination is required, even perhaps by peer review. However, patents (in any nation at any time) have never been reserved for "revolutionary" inventions (novel and non-obvious is the U.S. standard). The reason for this is simple -- it is often impossible for even the most skilled artisan to tell if an invention is revolutionary until years after it is patented (Eli Whitney's cotton gin being a good example). The importance of an invention is subjective while the novelty and non-obviousness of the invention are not.

      Tinker around on Google Patent Search for patents issued in the 19th century and you will see that few are them are for revolutionary inventions.

    2. Re:Fixing the system by Infinityis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, it might work to just stipulate the award money in advance, and then whichever side loses the patent suit would be required to pay out that amount to the winner. If you *know* that your patent is being infringed and that it will hold up, then go for the big dollars because they are rightly yours. However, if there is even a shadow of a doubt that there might be prior art or something else that would invalidate your patent, then patent trolls will think twice before adding a few zeros to the damages they seek.

      The fundamental problem is that the potential cost of losing is so low that it is becoming commoditized, which is why we're starting to see patents being bought and sold in bulk.

    3. Re:Fixing the system by tgd · · Score: 1

      You do realize that universities produce a huge number of patents every year... and their endowments often depend on the licensing fees for them?

  26. USB by RancidMilk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I believe that my usb port works as a joystiq port on my computer. So I believe that usb is the next to go.

  27. erm by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

    Given the Wii and the PS3 are standard wireless, how does that lawsuit work again? With base-model 360s?

    1. Re:erm by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1
      Given the Wii and the PS3 are standard wireless, how does that lawsuit work again? With base-model 360s?

      With previous generations of consoles, perhaps? According to TFA, the patent was applied for in 1998, awarded in 2001. The Wii and PS3 aren't the only consoles created since then.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    2. Re:erm by prelelat · · Score: 1

      they still have wired connectors, you can still hook up a game cube controler to a wii and you can still hook up a PS2 controller to a PS3 I believe.

      I believe that the controller connector for the wii is under a plastic plating on the top of it. So even though they use wireless as a standard they do have the connections that are in question. The question you have to ask is if the patent was granted in 2001 why did they wait until 2007 to file a suit? I'm not a lawyer or anything like that I can barly spell so can someone give me an idication as to why. From where I'm sitting it looks like they waited for the next gen consoles to be released the file suit so that they may be in a though spot and settle.

      BTW how do you think your going to win against 3 multi milliondollar companies. Maybe they hope to be bought out by one of them.

    3. Re:erm by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      Uh actually the ps3 doesn't take ps2 controllers or peripherals at least not without an adapter. The plugs are different for one thing....

  28. Its called "reexamination" by kansas1051 · · Score: 5, Informative
    What we need, as part of patent reform, is the ability to call BS on a patent during these lawsuits, which puts the infringement claim on hold until the patent itself is reviewed and debated over. Start a seperate court case to review the patent, with both parties able to produce evidence and expert testimony about the technology in question. If the patent is ruled bogus, then it should be invalidated on the spot and the infringement suit dropped.

    The U.S. Patent Office has such a procedure -- its called "reexamination." "Inter parties" reexamination allows two parties (the patentee and an accused infringer) to "reexamine" a patent before the USPTO in view of new prior art. If the USPTO agrees with the accused infringer, it can invalidate the patent. Lawsuits regarding patents in reexamination are commonly stayed (i.e. put on hold) until the reexamination terminates.

    Reexams often result in dubious patents being invalidated. The reason you do not read about them more often on /. is that the purported prior art is often grossly exaggerated by the accused infringer (as in the RIM/NTP patent case), so there may not actually be sufficient grounds to invalidate the patent.

    1. Re:Its called "reexamination" by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Prior art shouldn't be the only way to invalidate a patent, though. There's the whole non-obviousness bit, too. A joystick of any size is pretty obvious now. Unless someone's using magic to implement it, there's really nothing that's not evolutionary about it.

  29. Standard joystick port, except with CMOS voltages? by AtariDatacenter · · Score: 1

    I don't get it. This looks like the description of a standard Atari game controller port (from the late 70s), except, instead of TTL voltages, they're using CMOS voltages. I think a change like this would be obvious to a layman in the field. Heck, I have little to do with electronics, yet I could have come up with this.

    Doesn't mean that they can't harrass and shake down a few companies. But it seems like an awfully weak claim.

  30. Prior Art circa 1977 by pcjunky · · Score: 2, Informative

    This exact circuit was used in the Apple II in 1977. Copied by IBM in the IBM PC in 1981. May have been used prior to this. This circuit is so common they had to know that this was used many years ago. If I were a defendant in this case I would counter sue claiming they knowingly patented something that was in common use without disclosing the prior art just so they could intimidate companies. This a fraud on the patent office!

  31. Ah, that's it! by butterberg · · Score: 1

    Huh! I, once again, saw this infamous "Patent Pending" icon at the right top corner of the Slashdot article, and I was wondering, what it was about this time. Patent issues have always been so complicated for my simple mind. But then, after clicking on "Read more", and saw this 30 year old ATARI joystick below the Patent icon, and everything became clear!

  32. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  33. Patent Patenting prior art as a business model by pcjunky · · Score: 1

    Here is an idea. Lets take out a patent on patenting prior art and suing for infringment. This is allowed as a business method patent. Then when companies do what this company is doing, we sue them for patent infringment.

    1. Re:Patent Patenting prior art as a business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry. I already patented that idea. You can't use it without paying my licencing fee.

    2. Re:Patent Patenting prior art as a business model by stile99 · · Score: 1

      Won't work. The prior art is too well-documented.

  34. Join the USPTO! by blckbllr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Y'know, a lot of the posts in this comment section seem to be of the type "well, there's this prior art out there so there's no way a patent should have issued!"

    That being said, ultimately, it is the responsibility of the patent examiner to determine whether or not the claims of the patent are indeed patentable (useful, novel, nonobvious, etc.). However, don't blame the patent examiner. These poor souls are overworked and underpaid, and the backlog for many applications awaiting examination nowadays are in the 3-5 years range. For example, if you look at the public PAIR information for this particular patent here, you'll see that this particular application (App. No. 09/113,503) was initially assigned to group art unit 2635. In general, art unit 2600 is really swamped.

    So, what can you do? Rather than bitchin' and moanin' that the patent system of the U.S. is "broken," become a patent examiner! Take a look at a partial list of employment opportunities here and apply! If you want a faster link, here's the actual Patent Examiner Employment Application.

    So, do your civic and scientific duty today and join the ranks of the PTO!

    1. Re:Join the USPTO! by CapedOpossum · · Score: 1

      I have no problem believing that the patent examiners at the USPTO are swamped with work. But if the only room for growth the administrative folks afford is for about 6-7 patent examiners in an area pertinent to this case (I read through the positions in your first link)... how can they make a significant difference on 2-3 years of backlog? They're probably severely understaffed, but talk to the budget and HR folks and they'll probably say the "human capital" situation is not bad.

    2. Re:Join the USPTO! by mavenguy · · Score: 2, Informative

      While I suspect your comment was made in jest I must say that anyone who succeeded in being hired would be quickly disabused of any hope of being effective.

      The problem is not in the trenches but in a management culture, developed over decades (starting back in the late 1960's) that based patent examination as a process measured, effectively, by easily determined metrics such as number of applications processed per unit time ("Hours per balanced disposals") and timeliness of actions (oldest new application moved every other bi-week, amendments acted on within two months). Although quality is nominally figured into examiner evaluation, this requires a manager to actually look at the claims and prior art and make a judgment, if necessary, finding better prior art to show poor quality. This would require real work on the managers part. On the other hand, boasting to Congress how the PTO has processed a record number of applications and reduced pendency is easier to show, so this is what PTO management has done.

      The sad state of quality, however, has not gone unnoticed recently, so the management has had to react; unfortunately, unwilling to seriously scrap the process-oriented system their solutions involve "bolting on" various review oriented initiatives, such as "quality review" (a separate unit that samples allowed applications) and "second pair of eyes" review for all allowances in the art unit, all of which are after the fact and fail to tackle the basic flaw of the "time in motion" mentality.

      The result of this is an appalling actual level of quality and very low morale in the examining corps. The high attrition rate that complicates PTO staffing goals includes quits and firings due to failure to meet process goals; I'm not sure many, if any, are based on real quality issues such as allowing an unpatentable claim.

  35. Prior Art from the 1960s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There were joystick interfaces on storage tube terminals, such as Tektronix or the ARDS, back in the late 1960s.

  36. There is Prior Art by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Informative
    This patent is null and void: there is Prior Art which invalidates it.

    Back in the 1970s - 1980s, 8-bit computers used to measure the resistance of a joystick potentiometer using this setup:

    One end of the joystick pot (VR1) is connected to the main logic supply voltage (1). The slider (3) is connected to a capacitor (C1). The other terminal of the capacitor is earthed. The junction (3) of the variable resistance and capacitor is connected via a safety resistance (R1) to a logic input (4) on IC1. An open-collector logic output is also connected to this input. To take a reading the O/C output is driven low to discharge C1, then allowed to float. At some later moment in time, the capacitor will have charged to the point where the voltage at (4) exceeds its input threshhold and the input will read as a "1". By measuring the time which elapses between the forcible discharging of C1 and the triggering of the input, we can determine the unknown resistance between (1) and (3), and thus the position of the joystick.

    Even the IBM PC used this technique when a joystick port was added! Right up to the days when USB became standard for PC joysticks, every PC had a 15-pin DIN connector (colour: mustard) with four such inputs plus some switch inputs. The Atari 9-pin DIN joystick port (which would eventually go on to become a de facto standard) featured two resistance inputs which were normally used by the paddle controllers, but (because, if fitted with a simple pull-up resistance and the O/C output is left open, they are switch inputs) became the extra mouse buttons on the Amiga. All this was done long enough ago that, had any patent ever covered it (which is frankly pretty unlikely; the idea of determining an unknown resistance by using it in an oscillator and measuring the period of said oscillator should be obvious to anyone who knows how to wire a 13 amp plug, let alone an "expert" in the field), it would certainly have expired by now.

    The circuit goes something like this;

    * 1970s-style Joystick Port
    * Node 1 is +5 Volts
    VR1 1 2 3 POT100K
    C1 3 0 0.1U
    R1 3 4 1K
    * Node 4 is a logic input tied to an O/C output
    IC1 ..... 4 .....
    Note also that this method was not universal. The BBC computer used a 12-bit A-D converter (mapped to the upper 12 bits of a two-byte word), with the tracks of the pots between a reference supply and ground; the Dragon 32 used a 6-bit ADC formed from a DAC (also used, via an analogue DUX, for cassette and audio output!) and comparator.
    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  37. ... 0 by remmelt · · Score: 1

    And it's gone again... I was looking for the edit but couldn't find it; it's been deleted again with a reference to the talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Patent_troll#Fen ner_Investments

    Good luck next time!

    (PS it wasn't me)

  38. My recommendation for patent reform by szembek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We need a 'use it or lose it' mentality to patents. If you patent a new type of mouse and it's 7 years later and somebody else is selling these mice and you haven't done shit with yours... then too bad so sad. This will eliminate these patent trolls.

    --
    nothing
  39. Nintendo has patents on all there ports by majortom1981 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nitnendo has patents on all there ports and connecters so how would this tandup against that ?

  40. Bring 'em on by tji · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is good stuff.. Patent trolls don't have the kind of money needed to buy congressmen. And, the deep pocketed companies they are after surely do. So, hopefully this continues, and those big companies get the congressmen they control to reform the patent system.

  41. Filed in 1998? by SQLz · · Score: 1

    Jeez people were using joysticks in the 70's.

  42. Airforce... by flyingfsck · · Score: 3, Funny

    They should sue the US Airforce for using joysticks in fighter planes. Maybe some pilot will get angry and press the launch button to solve the whole problem once and for all...

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  43. ATTN: Fenner Investments by 8ball629 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Please file a patent lawsuit against IBM so we don't have to deal with your trolling anymore.

    Best Regards,
    The World

  44. I've heard some excellent ideas here but by RexDevious · · Score: 2, Insightful

    but I haven't heard any explanation of how they might be implemented. Say you want to see a common sense reform like, "You can't patent a business process" or "You can't patent something you've never created". How would that reform happen? Do we just hope the SCOTUS intervenes, making a ruling during a case which has ramifications for other cases? Would the Congress need to pass a bill laying out such a reform? Is there anything we can do as citizens to push things in the right direction?

    The only thing I can think of is to patent a method of "Reducing and preventing severe head pain, through the application of a system which regulates the velocity of any high density object as it approaches the cranial system. The forumla for the appropriate approach is F=MA, where F is less than painful"; and then suing the patent trolls for infringement. Of course, I wouldn't settle out of court; I'd demand an immediate cease-and-desist.

    Not smashing yourself over the head with blunt objects? Hey... that's *my* idea!

  45. How? by simontek2 · · Score: 1

    How can you patent something that was around atleast 20 years before you applied for the patent? Yes a reform is needed.

    --
    SimonTek
  46. Most would not survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not because the work is too much or burn-out but that the USPTO *management* doesn't want what is needed. If I were to turn up I would be sacked because I'd look at the patent and see if I can create the product so patented. If I couldn't from the description, I'd fail it: not specific enough. If I didn't see any benefit for the public in the patent (e.g. one-click shopping, where you CANNOT use trade secret so what is the alternative if the patent fails? Still use it. Loss: Nil).

    After a few weeks (maybe months) I would be sacked for refusing too many patents.

  47. Patent Pirates by rjriley · · Score: 3, Informative
    It is the outrageous conduct of patent pirates which transforms fun loving inventors into mythical ugly patent trolls. First they steal the inventor's property and then they abuse the legal system to rape the inventor. Meanwhile they use money they make from such theft to conduct massive PR campaigns in an effort to paint any inventor who has the gall to defend the patent PROPERTY rights as bad players.

    ====

    The Professional Inventors Alliance USA was created more than a decade ago to protect American invention and encourage innovation. American inventors saw a need to track congressional legislation and federal policy that impacts independent inventors, small and medium-sized businesses and colleges and universities. The Alliance is the premiere organization in the nation, providing independent inventors a united voice in order to improve public policy.

    The Alliance provides legislative counsel, congressional updates and strategy development to its members through a number of vehicles. Additionally, through its speaker's bureau, Alliance members have an opportunity to provide expert opinion to many of the nation's top-tier business, technology and mainstream media organizations. Over the years its members have testified before Congress, offered counsel to key Senate and House committee members, and successfully pushed legislation to protect America's independent inventors.

    Since its inception, the Alliance has grown into one of the most vocal advocates for America's patent system.

    Examples of areas of our expertise include David Vs. Goliath patent litigation, patent reform, and we have a unique view of the companies comprising the "Coalition for Patent Piracy".

    Ronald J. Riley,

    President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
    Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
    Direct (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 9 pm EST.

  48. My attempt at interpretting the patent by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 3, Informative

    From my inspection of the patent, it appears that their "invention" is supposed to allow a joystick which operates with a 5 V supply to interface to a circuit which does not operate on a 5 V supply.

    This isn't just obvious, it's necessary! Anyone even half-assed skilled in the art would know that you need to do something to connect a 5 V TTL output to a 3.3 V LVTTL input.

    Okay, so maybe their something is novel or nonobvious. In fact, it's neither; they're using a tri-state buffer's threshold voltage as a comparator.

    Basically, digital logic circuits can have any manner of analog voltages applied to them. Circuit designers specify these voltages as Vil (voltage input low threshold) and Vih (voltage input high threshold). Any input voltage below Vil will generate an digital output voltage below Vol (voltage output low), which is usually interpreted as logic 0. Any input voltage above Vih will, correspondingly, generate a voltage above Voh, which is usually interpreted as logic 1.

    They specify that their buffer has hysteresis, so that way it won't suffer from the metastability that usually occurs when you feed a digital circuit an input voltage between Vil and Vih.

    Keep in mind that these components are all COTS (common-off-the-shelf) parts.

    They just drain a capacitor, which causes the input of the buffer to go below Vil, so the buffer outputs a logic 0, which raises a PCin bit (whose voltage level is not the 5V joystick level), let the capacitor charge through the potentiometer whose resistance is proportional to the current joystick position (which cap is being charged by a 5V supply), and when the charging capacitor exceeds Vih of the input buffer, the buffer outputs a logic 1, causing the PCin bit to go low again.

    There's some miscellaneous stuff about resetting, the order in which to apply signals to make the process work, etc. But, basically, the whole patent is bollocks.

    I also like how they have a small piece in their patent filing about how those skilled in the art will see obvious ways to modify their patent's invention, and that these modifications are still "in the spirit" of what the patent covers and are thus covered by the patent.

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
  49. Bogus claims describe a PC Joystick by wiredlogic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The claims are all describing the old "dumb" analog PC joystick. The claims specifically describes the joystick as being dependent on a processor on the other side of the interface to perform the procedure of measuring the position of the joystick. Ignoring the scads of prior art for this type of joystick, all modern consoles with analog sticks and all USB joysticks have some form of integrated processor that performs the procedure described in the claims before anything goes out over the interface. Even if the patent were valid there can be no valid claim of infringement for any modern hardware.

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    1. Re:Bogus claims describe a PC Joystick by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      After looking at it a little closer it seems that the patent specifically covers the use of an LVCMOS device for the PC joystick controller. It seems particularly concerned with the use of lower voltage pulses than the original TTL based game port controllers. This switching of logic families really isn't sufficient to pass the obviousness or innovativeness tests to warrant a patent.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
  50. Re:This is junk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This patent is a monopoly on something obvious. No, it's not quite a "patent on the joystick port" if you read it (but don't read it, if you read it they could get triple damages!) (amigas and other platforms had analogue and digital joysticks in the 1980s of course, so it would be instantly invalidated if that was all it was).

    However, it is still neither non-obvious nor particularly inventive, to the people whose opinion should count (of course, the people whose opinions count in the USA are MBAs, PHBs, Lawyers and just about anyone other than engineers!).

    Asking USPTO folk to judge patent novelty is a bit like those stereotypical primitives on a tropical island who are wowed by the god-like power of motor boats and airplanes. People judging the validity of patents are, almost necessarily, unqualified: the people who would be qualified either detest patents (most engineers, not just in software, btw) or can earn far more actually working as engineers or both. So you end up with, well, weenies, in charge of handing out 20 year monopolies.

  51. And back up again slightly revised by michaelwigle · · Score: 2, Informative

    Thanks for providing the link to the talkback. I didn't even know that part existed. After reading the entry I saw that the only problem with my entry was that it should have linked to the Slashdot article that included the phrase "patent troll" in the submission. I've resubmitted with that change and expect it to stay up. Quite a learning experience but it was about time I started learning about Wikipedia since so many people are starting to use it. Like many new technologies, I have to learn it, but I don't have to like it. :P

  52. Lucent by krismon · · Score: 1

    anyone else notice the assignee of the patent as Lucent?

  53. A Fascinating Patent by ratboy666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    but not in a good sense.

    An explanation for those who don't want to read the patent:

    An anlog joystick is pretty much a variable resistor. In order to convert this into a digital domain, the resistance must be measured. We know that the resistor itself can be used to change the discharge time of a capacitor -- this is common. Meauring the discharge time means determining the time the capacitor goes from one voltage to a lower voltage. Which, by its very nature is a "pulse".

    And this patent seems to cover all such interfaces in the "joystick" domain.

    Now, I can come up with alternate methods for reading the resistance. First one (off the top of my head), is to use a series of resistors controlled by a latched value to produce a reference voltage which is then sent through the joystick resistance. The final output is run through a gate which triggers at a reference voltage. Via search, we can determine the target joystick resistance. (I would probably use a binary search). But this is not any where NEAR as simple or obvious as the R-C approach.

    Now, the R-C approach has been used for other variable resistors (prior to 1998) -- the "joystick" application is the only new thing. I used it myself in the 80's. Just never for a joystick (not being into gaming). Its main benefits are that it needs only a single input pin and the circuit is simple. But, given those constraints it is obvious.

    Oh well -- go patent trolls. Sure glad I am not in the US.

    --
    Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    1. Re:A Fascinating Patent by niks42 · · Score: 1

      I recall that D/A converters were much more common in the 70s and 80s than A/D converters - especially more accurate ones. (we were using 6-bit flash converters for video). When we were working on graphics displays in the local lab, we used D/A converters to generate a ramp, and then the ramp voltage was compared (in a comparator, duh) with the voltage from the pot wipers from the joystick. Since the joystick was carrying relatively few signals (ground, power, wiper x2, trim pots x 2, a couple of switch outputs), the cable could be thin.

  54. This is quite odd. by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 1

    From the patent:

    "The invention being thus described, it will be obvious to one skilled in the art that the same may be varied in many ways. Such variations are not to be regarded as a departure from the spirit and scope of the invention, and all such modifications are intended to be included within the scope of the following claims."

    How in the world did that get patented? Anything that's kind of like this is also part of the patent?

    Other patents I've seen require detail down to the bit level.

    There's got to be something in the prosecution history that would shed more light on this.

    That said, you've got to wonder about the company that's trying to sue Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo. They should have gone after a few small companies first to build a precedent.

    --

    ---
    ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
  55. Harms are not always reversible by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1
    you can always seize the infringer's revenue or assets later to make up for the loss of revenue if it turns out he indeed was infringing. That's the point -- just because there's a harm doesn't mean you need to stop it right now.

    Not true. The infringer can easily move the money to keep that from happening. Later the infringer goes bankrupt.

    In fact, Novell is now making that point with regard to SCOX. While SCOX is not making money off of a patent, it does involve license revenue, and the point remains that an infringer can get away with it to the point that there is no money to recover after the fact.

    --
    You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
  56. At least the targets are deserving by HiThere · · Score: 1

    I may think the patents should be thrown out, but at least this time the targets are companies that deserve the grief of dealing with the lawsuits. Perhaps one of them will sue the USPTO for malfeasance. (That's probably not possible, but I can dream.)

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  57. Re:This is junk by TavisJohn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bingo! This patent troll is going to loose. The Atari 2600, 7800, Commodore 64, and the Nintendo Entertainment System and many had Joystick ports. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainmen t_System was out years before that patent was filed. So sense prior "art" exists, then they do not have a leg to stand on!

    Personally I think that if a patent is found (In court) that it is not valid, it should be taken from the patent whores and givin to the Public Domain.

    I wonder if it is possible to file for a patent, and donate it to the public domain directly. Then "Patent Heros" could file for simple, and basic patents, and then just give them to the public, where they belong!

  58. Re:This is junk by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

    Seems like it would be pretty simple to release a patent to PD. But, then, this is the government we're talking about here. Simple is a dirty word to them. It takes an obscene amount of time just to give them money.

    --
    120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
  59. Re:There is VERY Prior Art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check micro-80 for prior art discussing the pros and cons of analog and digital joysticks on TRS-80 model 1s. Pre dates Atari, IBM, etc.

  60. Totally Bogus by DLPotts · · Score: 3, Informative

    Few things to point out here. 1) I don't know who filed the infringement on this patent. 2) I am one of the inventors of this patent (DLPotts from Royersford, PA). I have no idea how they expect this to fly in court. Why? The idea of the patent directly ties to JOYSTICK PORTS on PC's, and NOTHING else. The Joystick port on the PC is a 5volt open collector port that uses sampled time to determine if the potentiometer has moved or not. Eventually the semiconductors involved dropped to 3.3 volt and thus the Joystick port would not function any more. The Patent reflects how the port had to be modified to accept a current joystick (ones designed to run on 5 volt) and still be accurate. The idea behind the design was not to stop people from inventing a low voltage joystick such as Nintendo, Sony and MS have done, but a way to use the (then current) joysticks in future systems. Since none of the game consoles involved actually use "PC JOYSTICK" ports (they have created their own ports), and they are not interfacing to the analog PC joysticks of the time; there is no way that this would ever stand up in court. I would also like to give a shout out to Jalil Fadavi of this patent too; he lost his battle to cancer a few months back.. He was a great man.

    1. Re:Totally Bogus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nitpick side note: Xbox/Xbox 360 use standard USB with a modified connector for wired controllers (360 also has a proprietary 2.4 Ghz wireless option), not a custom interface.

  61. Isn't a joystick port basically... by Dretep · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...insert Rod A into Slot B? Weren't there electrical outlets before joystick ports? We could go back to creation and argue the original patent for inserting Rod A into Slot B could be awarded to God.

  62. Excuse my pedantics... by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

    Actually, they're measuring the charge time of the capacitor. If you look in their patent app at the circuit diagram, you see a tri-state buffer whose input is attached to ground - that's how they force a discharge of the cap.

    Then, they let the cap charge up through the variable resistor of the joystick, and once it crosses Vih of the input buffer, said buffer outputs a logic 1.

    You're still right in spirit, though.

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
  63. DACs and ADCs by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

    The reason DACs were cheaper is because it's actually really simple to build a DAC. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_Ladder Those R-2R resistor ladders can be built for ridiculously cheap.

    DACs actually the basis of modern SAR (Successive-Approximation Register) ADCs.

    With a SAR ADC, you do a binary search with a comparator and a DAC against the analog input voltage by using the DAC to successively approximate the analog input voltage. So you use the DAC to output 1/2 of the max, and a comparator then decides whether it's above or below. You store the result in a register, and then move to within a 1/4 of the target voltage, and store the comparator result. Repeat until you have a full binary number.

    Higher order ADCs are just a function of better comparators and DACs. Back in the day, it was kind of expensive to have all this digital logic in a circuit (with the registers and comparators and the state machine to control all this).

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
  64. they have no case, the joystick has been around... by MrJerryNormandinSir · · Score: 1

    The patent was filed in 1998. The joystick has been around much longer than that. The clerk in the patent office that took the
    application should be fired, and the filee should be banned from trolling for existing inventions and filing a patent on them

  65. my atari 2600 had a ^&king joystick..in 1977! by MrJerryNormandinSir · · Score: 1

    I was one of the first kids to own an atari 2600. I was a paper boy back then I bought it with my own money earned.
    That unit had an analog joystick. This damn joystick patent should be trashed.
    Who was the IDIOT that approved this patent?

  66. Read the Patent, then whine by tempest69 · · Score: 1
    Here is the gig on the patent... it isnt about the resistors it is about converting the signal from 5 volts down to an arbitrary lower amount.

    However this peice still isnt really that big of a deal, because motherboards still need to do a pretty similar trick for the rest of the 5 volt parts out there (keyboard and mouse ports). This patent moves the problem around a bit, and might be a little cheaper in hardware implemantation, but its pretty far from being non-obvious. Anyway, this wasnt a problem back when the CPU was running at 5 volts, just when they dropped down to 3.3.. or 3.465 for the history nerdistas..

    Storm

  67. Re:my atari 2600 had a ^&king joystick..in 197 by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

    it was digital, actually.

    --
    Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
  68. Re:This is junk by donaldm · · Score: 1

    Maybe if they filed the patent in the early 1970's they may have something but I would have been surprised if 1970's arcade joysticks used high voltage (a shocking experience otherwise). Basically the patent reads like what a second year University Electrical Engineering student back in the mid to late 1970's would do to get a few extra marks in a digital control theory project. Even back in the early 1960's 3V and 5V (in the patent) was commonly used for digital applications and I have seen much more sophisticated digital control systems even back then. Look at any electronics manual or cookbook from the 1970's (some still relevant today) and you will see how stupid this is.

    This is a patent troll if ever I saw one, unfortunately lawyers who will prosecute or defend the pending case will most likely have no idea what a resister, capacitor, inductor or even an integrated circuit is, not to mention what Electrical Engineering people were taught back in the 1960's and 1970's. Of course if you touch on transistors, FETS and (shock!) valves maybe their brains will explode possibly putting them (patent lawyers) up for a Darwin Award.

    --
    There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
  69. The Claims Say... by Patent-Monkey · · Score: 1

    From the patent:
    9. A processor based system, comprising:
    a processor;
    a joystick device having a first source voltage; and
    an interface interfacing said joystick device with said processor, said interface including,
    a Resistor-Capacitor (RC) network, connected to the joystick device, said RC network having a capacitor that generates an analog joystick position measurement signal; and
    an interface circuit having a second source voltage that is lower than the first source voltage, including
    a buffer circuit, in a first operation mode of said interface, receiving said analog joystick position measurement signal, outputting a first logic state as a digital signal before said analog joystick measurement signal exceeds said predetermined threshold, and outputting a second logic state as said digital signal after said analog joystick measurement signal exceeds said predetermined threshold, and
    a pulse generator generating a pulse based on said digital signal in said first operation mode of said interface, a width of said pulse representing a coordinate position of said joystick device, and outputting said pulse to said processor, wherein the capacitance value of said capacitor is a function of said predetermined threshold that prevents deviation of the width of said pulse from expected values.


    As has been mentioned on a few posts above, this relates to performing a low voltage analog response and this claim doesn't require a manual input joystick.

  70. What skilled developer would work for this? by daveling · · Score: 1

    This is from IP Australia http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/about/jobspatsalary. shtml the salary for patent examiners is disappointing, from the site

    As an Examiner of Patents your starting salary in February 2007 will be in the range of $44,350 to $56,320. Currently the employer contribution to the default superannuation fund (PSSAP) is 15.4%.

    I can only assume US salaries are comparable for examiners. Starting salaries for a programmer would be at least $50K, $80K for a senior developer, $100+ for a consultant, so in IT I have no idea why anyone would be a patent examiner, unless you're just starting out, and really who would want a new graduate to examine patents? Though it perhaps would be a nice semi-retirement job.

    Maybe one way to do it would be to for senior developers to work on a part time basis, or even short term contracts, it would look nice on their cv and would benefit the community. Much like doctors and lawyers do pro-bono work. Personally it would be fun to examine a few patents in my spare time.