Slashdot Mirror
Did Gates Fib About H1-B Salaries?
netbuzz writes "While in Washington last year lobbying for higher H1-B visa limits, Bill Gates told David Broder of the Washington Post that Microsoft starts such workers at about $100,000. An analysis by one offshoring critic suggests that's not true. If his analysis is correct, it would undermine part of the case for lifting H1-B ceilings.
Are you telling me that Bill Gates lied to the population about their situation? And we gobbled it up?
... politician?
Bill Gates: computer scientist, marketer, business man, philanthropist
Who would have thought the term Renaissance Man could have such negative connotations?
Wouldn't it be easier for microsft to move to India than to move India here?
Vista Help Forum
Windows Vista Help Forum
Face facts: To Bill Gates, 10K a year IS pretty close to 100K. Sheerest poverty.
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
Of course Bill wants to import workers so he can pay them the same money he'd have to pay native-born workers. Duh!
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
This is equivalent to saying they are making 3 times what I make, when they're only making 2 times what I make. Regardless of which number is correct, I'm still left feeling screwed over.
...for 95k, no questions asked.
He meets politicians and tells them whatever his acolytes ask him to tell them. He would go to India and tell exactly the opposite story. Go look at Indian websites oooohing aaahhing his compliments and how much he is going to invest in India and how important R&D done in India is to Microsoft.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
What's not said in the article is that market rates change. Typically market rates go up (and I'd argue that they are up quite a bit right now). The greencard application process takes some time, and rates likely change in that time. If the greencard takes 2 years to apply for, and it's in process, then those H1-Bs don't want to change jobs and restart the application process. These aren't typical highly-mobile employees: they don't want to change jobs because the application process starts all over again. So, salaries of H1-B employees are likely to be considerably lower than current market rates.
From another perspective, Gates is saying that current market rates are ~100k. This is about right for mid-level software engineers with 2-4 years of experience, in that area.
It's not the same as looking at H1-B applications and trying to figure current rates, as they will reflect market conditions from 1-4 years ago (depending on when the H1-B process started for that individual).
Business Week is running a story about how the H1-B visa is ACTUALLY being used, and it seems it is used much more often than not to act as a conduit to offshore outsourcing, ie get the Indians or whoever over to the US, train them at a crappy salary(comparatively) and then send them home. While some firms certainly are using the visas to get foreign talent to the US, they are being crowded out by body dumpers. One suggestion proffered by the article is to only let US companies get H1Bs.
Monstar L
When you're Bill Gates, what's the difference between $71k and $100k? They're basically the same thing from his prospective.
Also, TFA cites green card applications, not green card grants.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I don't know about the salary amount issue. But in support you have people all over the place that work for one manager but yet report to the cost center of another. We stumbled upon this accidentally and the explanation was that they are supposed to work at one position for a certain amount of time according to H-1 rules. To get around this, they still move people around but leave them on the original cost center. This should come as no surprise. Microsoft has made it very clear that their ethic is they will do whatever they think they can get away with. Funny this is, if I stooped to their level, I would walk out every night with a hard drive in my pocket. But I dont.
Posted Microsoft jobs advertised on ComputerJobs
Gee, it doesn't look like they need that many people. And if they actually advertised, I'm sure there's plenty of us who'd be more than willing to relocate at our own expense to have a job.
I know it's completely against the bizarro-world mentality you folks have to even consider this, but wasn't the original quote related by a third party? I know...crazy.
Say, H1-Bs are required for cutting costs; and not due to lack of talent in the US. Even then... .... ....
1. No H1-B, means higher costs for US Companies
2. US Companies compete locally (inside US), and globally with Global Companies
3. So US Companies' have a higher cost of product development or software services, compared to those from outside (which employ cheaper labor)
4.
5.
6. Profit! (BUT HOW??!!)
An alternative is to ship most of the development or services lifecycle outside, so that H1-Bs are not needed anymore. This is even worse for the US, isn't it? The money wouldn't even get spent in the US. That is, "offshoring" or "bangaloring"
As they say, treat the disease, not the symptom. Reducing work permits is not the answer.
Life is just a conviction.
He could possibly be mistaken. I would believe Bill Gates more on matters related to product marketing. For this case he may only be a parrot throwing up misinformation.
When is cost analysis for an employee is calculated it's not only calculated on how much is paid to that employee in cash money. It includeds applicable taxes, fees(think Workmans Comp), health insurance splits(if health insurance is provided). An employee that grosses $50,000 a year can actually cost an employer $65,000 or more depending on all the benefits,taxes,etc...
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
When I first read that, I was as outraged as the rest of you, but if you think about it from his perpective, he's probably right.
When he says $100K, he's probably thinking salary+ health care + 401K + taxes. When you add that up on an average individual employee, you get to $100K pretty easily.
The difference is that when we read $100K, we assume salary only. I know lots of people working at MSFT, none of whom are making that much even after 5+ years there. Unless they are paying their H1-B's more, he's either thinking in terms of total compensation package or...he's just plain lying.
Honestly though, he may not actually know -- why would he care about an operational detail like that at this point in his career?
Exceptionally talented in some circles is not always the same as in other circles such as the business circle. Did these people get interviews with Microsoft? How did they do in the interview? Being a successful employee often requires more than '1337' skills.
Bill Gates told David Broder of the Washington Post that Microsoft starts such workers at about $100,000
/year. The agency then takes 60% of this as commission, and the H1-B applicant gets the remaining $40,000.
The supply agency charges a company like Microsoft an hourly rate equivalent of $100,000
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Troll!
So, as hard as it might be for some of you to stomach, Gates is telling the truth. These are not Janitors Microsoft is hiring, but highly trained, highly sought after individuals, regardless of country of origin.
Deal with it.
How can this nonsensical rant get a 3? This sounds like a wealth hating troll.
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
You are so in for a surprise when you find out what people around you are earning. I don't mean this as humor, I'm entirely serious. Try this as an exercise: go round your neighborhood and estimate the cost of property. Now compute the price of a mortgage on those houses. Add in property tax. Now compute what salary you'd need to be able to afford those houses (and possibly maintain a family, two cars etc.). See what I mean?
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
Microsoft's benefits and freebies for employees are probably the best in the industry, if not ANY industry. What you said about age could not be more false, especially in the programming ranks. Sure, there are lots of kids, but Microsoft is smart enough to know that kids need supervision.
Just because nobody in your circle made the cut doesnt mean a thing. I suggest your 'friends' just get a bit smarter, quicker, whatever, and try again.
The key to getting a job at Microsoft is not to just be smart, but to be in the right place at the right time. Different departments have different needs. You cant just be a poindexter, you need to be able to convey your ideas, back them up and prove your case in your writing and your speaking ability. Only then does it help to be able to code your ass off.
If you mean float like rocks....
I just finished reading the wunderbar description about Vista's new User land driver models and what it means to Creative. I say rock on, everyone migrate to Vista and clamor for OpenAL and OpenGL games. Vista, apparently is going to be the best thing for OpenAL/GL gaming ever.
I'm pretty certain from their approach with audio, that the video path couldn't be much better, for the same reason. So vendor provided OpenAL/GL access to their hardware is probably going to be the best path for game makers to take. That could have wonderful implications for freeing games from MS entirely, as then it becomes relatively trivial to port to multiple systems.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Those MCSE commercials I hear all the time...
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
Seriously, if H1-B salary is high, they take away our well-paid jobs, and we shouldn't let them. If H1-B salary is low, they take away our lowly jobs, and we shouldn't let them too.
And the article tries to criticize Bill Gate's H1-B comment by green card data. Come on, there are at least a dozen
- How many H1-B's are in Microsoft? What is the time period of study? And there are only 1202 green card applications?
- Not every H1-B holders want a green card. Honestly, I believe the higher salaries they are, the less inclined they would apply for a green card.
- If you want to have a "cheap, controllable" labor source, you will not apply green card for them. Simple.
- Green card takes a few years to process. $71k in 2002 worths a lot more now.
It must depend on your definition of the word "about". Is $70 about $100? Is $70k about $100k?
I am not defending Bill Gates, that's just wrong...ewwwww. But, did he state that ALL H-1B's start at about $100k? If some start in a $90k - $100k range, some start in the $80k to $90k range, and the rest are below $80k is it a lie to say they start at about $100k? I dunno. I'm back to, "It depends on your definition of 'about'."
Outsourcing and immigration has been happening for decades. If it's against "the will of the voters" as you say .. how come they keep voting the guys in who do it? Or are you claiming people are really dumb?
.. where competing factories are finding it hard to retain workers ..google the ny times article) and (much to your disappointment) their quality of life will improve. US workers' quality of life will improve too as they won't have to do repetitious labor intensive jobs. Eventually low energy using robot workers will have to be invented to sustain a global high quality of life for everyone.
The third world disparity of wealth happens because the leadership exerts ownership over national resources and property.
In a developed country, wealth is placed in financial institutions. These institutions provide loans to build houses, buy cars, and start businesses. Those activities create jobs and improve quality of life. The jobs themselves actually harvest or utilize energy, so as long as their is high energy production everyone people can have a decent quality of life. Think about it. That's why the amount of hours worked in 1950 to afford a refrigerator was a lot more than it was today. Sure people worked less, but they also didn't have hundreds of tv channels and movies, better variety of music to choose from, computers, and cell phones and many didn't even have washing machines. Fact is that you are far more likely to be able to do what you like here if you're good at it.
As the third world people you hate so much develop, the workers there will ask for higher wages (it's already happening in China
The US doesn't have the number of workers (even unskilled) required to produce everything we have today. And that's a fact.
Even a rich person will always want their money to grow and they will want more and more services (else whats the point of being rich). In the third world the wealthy just want to hoard up the countries resources. Anyway, we all know your real motive is hatred of entire classes of people and you are willing to blind yourself to rationality to maintain that hate.
Bill Gates responded by saying, "I always tell the truth... even when I lie."
Adidas To Bring Back Sneakernet
I mean really?
If you code for free, making 10K a year is infinitely better.
It doesn't make any difference whether H1-B workers are paid less than American workers when they come to the US. Why? Because they will be competing with US workers no matter where they are.
If they can't come to the US on H1-B visas, companies like Microsoft will simply grow their overseas research labs further. That way, the US loses the talent, loses the tax revenue, and US workers will have to compete against people paid even less. So, capping H1-B visas will cause high-tech companies to move elsewhere and will cause US engineers to compete against highly skilled engineers in lower-wage countries.
Of course, that's exactly why it's the right thing to do: Europe, India, and China are (directly or indirectly) responsible for a large amount of US high tech exports, yet most of the highly skilled work is still being done in the US. That's obviously not fair, and restricting H1-B visas is one of the ways in which this problem can be fixed.
The point is H-1B is being used as a labor arbitrage vehicle, an age discrimination vehicle. If H-1Bs are paid more than US S,E,&T, then the Visa is clearly being used to bring in talent that is unavailable in the US current and isn't a problem. Who wants to deny international talent to the US? The problem is they are paid much less, plus under the control of the employer. HR 4378, The Defend the American Dream Act, 2005, from the 109th congress, introduced by Bill Pascrell (D-NJ, 8th) has provisions that will fix the legal loopholes used by corporations currently to labor arbitrage and discriminate. This bill does not kill the H-1B Visa program, it simply fixes it to stop the abuses. We need to get this bill reintroduced in the 110th Congress and passed. Major point, if Microsoft (who recently laid off thousaands, Intel, who also recently laid off thousands) truly are using H-1B Visas ONLY to bring in talent not available currently in the US, versus young, cheap workers to thrash their workforce and age dscrimination, then they would have no problems with HR 4378...but alas, the bill was buried in committee last congress and it's up to us, the tech work force to promote and demand this bill be passed.
To Bill Gates' point - H1B's that get hired by U.S. companies are required to pay the prevailing wage for the profession the H1B is being hired in, for the region they reside in. I immigrated into the U.S. via the H1B route (I'm a citizen now and I also did my undergraduate in CS here), and have been able to verify that the prevailing wage was indeed paid to me while I was an H1B.
;) (for now).
There is also another law that states that no more than 15% of your workforce can be H1-B based. This law is meant to protect U.S. citizens from being displaced by H1-B's and to assure that only really critical roles can be filled with H1-B workers. No one is going to hire an HR person on an H-1B (well unless they are super critical in an HR-kind of way to the company).
Another noteworthy thing to mention is, prevailing wage != FMV (fair market value) wage, at least in my experience. This difference between the two may amount to _some_ savings, but I doubt it is as significant as, let's say, hiring a foreign Indian worker in India at 1/2 or less the salary.
Speaking of hiring offshore - this may or may not prove to be a value added proposition - if you have some seriously senior, super-technical project managers who can divvy up a project into many well-defined/well-bounded specific tasks (e.g. write code for login/logout procedures for a webapp based on Tomcat, using JAAS as the authentication/mechanism, task #2, integrate JAAS with Active Directory on Windows Server, etc.), delegating these tasks to off-shore people, it could work. But this only works in a mature environment like Microsoft probably. It could work in smaller companies too, but it's much riskier, and it could inhibit the company's growth.
Offshoring is overrated. Hiring local, U.S. talent as well as H1B is much better value. Well, that's my opinion anyway, and I'm sticking to it
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
Ah, another comment from the Slashdot credibility brigade! How ya been?
My father actually came to the United State on a H1-B, to work for Unisys. There were issues (seemed like there was foot dragging on Green Card acquisition, and of course the inevitable fear of being fired and having to start over - regardless of how small the risk my have been), however he made a healthy amount of money per year - just under a 100k per year his first year. Later terms of employment took him over 100k, even while still waiting for the green card (it took a few YEARS). There are bad uses for the H1-B, but definately at least some companies do use it well.
It also neglects performance bonuses / other payouts that arent directly on the paycheck, which may very well put that median up to $100,000.
"I could'a been a contender."
Talent as you define it isn't necessarily talent as Microsoft or Google defines it. Talent alone doesn't make you employable. Not everyone gets a shot at the brass ring.
That about right for an experienced non-dumbass in the inflated Seattle metro area. It's about as expensive as the SF Bay Area now. He might be padding his stats by including some benefits. And I'd guess MS has a better track record than most about paying H1Bs more or less the same as the natives.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
With a population of 298 million, there isn't a job description Microsoft can concoct which a single American can't fill.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
So he's lying.
Or they are hiring junior people.
Or maybe they ARE hiring dumbasses.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
In the quotation, Gates says "salaries for these jobs at Microsoft start at about $100,000 a year. Their counterparts can be hired more cheaply in China or India..." This implies to me that domestic hirees are paid around $100K initially, and that those hired through a visa program cost less. Has Mister Oak misread the quotation or is he purposefully misrepresenting it?
Started with a major software company out of college, five months ago. Salary: $95000. No, I'm not a genius, and no I'm not an exception. Five CS people (out of 10) in my graudating class were hired at the same rate by comparable companies. And before you ask, the other five aren't unemployed: they're in grad school. Not because they couldn't find anything else, but because they wanted to go.
My advice to unemployed US programmers: quit whining. If you aren't getting these jobs, you aren't qualified for them. Get your qualifications, get the experience, and compete with the best. It's what I had to do, and after watching the H1-B flamewar for the last five years, I still don't see why Americans think the global economy-- yes, it's global, accept it-- should go any easier on them than anyone else.
There is a link directly to the WaPo Article and it is a direct quote. We assume that David Broder also correctly quoted Bill Gates, per the credibility of one of the world's leading reporters.
In his end of year column, David Broder made a sort-of retraction somewhat acknowledging that Bill Gates' deviates from the truth. The claim that Microsoft H-1B's make over $100,000 was just one of many misstatments. Another one was that dependents count towards the H-1B quota (not).
It's amazing how the moral character of the leaders in the industry has changed. Can anyone imagine An Wang or Ken Olsen being suggested to be liars?
I'm a fresh university graduate working for a Seattle area software development company on a TN visa. My salary +signing bonus+stock options doesn't get me to $100k but it's close enough that I believe Gates. Considering that Microsoft is bringing in people with several years experience (and therefore paid more) under their belts that number could easily get to $100k.
Oh, a lesson in history from Mr. I'm my own grandpa.
Just open it up to lawyers, academics, doctors and polticians.
Then you'll see how up support there is for it.
I and other H-1B's get paid exactly the same, if not better, than my American citizen counterparts.
While the base salary isn't breaking $100k a lot of the time, Microsoft gives everyone (H-1B or otherwise) a bucketload of benefits that would easily push the cost to MS well over $100k.
Add into the mix the fact that Microsoft has to pay shiteloads of money for legal services, filing fees, premium processing, etc. just to keep us in the country, and you realize that it costs MS a decent amount more to keep H-1Bs in the country. Plus, the stupid Americans like to randomly tear up your visas from time to time if you come from a "suspicious" country, and let me tell you, those are expensive battles.
No. America will fail if we fail to to train young Americans.
..." What? Do you think Americans are naturally stupid?
You got it wrong.
"Does not have the inclination
Perhaps you are a racist.
Americans are smart and trainable. Raise wages and you'll get qualified Americans.
How qualified was bill gates at age 24? He would have never been hired by anyone, but was smart enough
to run a 'slightly suspect business model', ie the true business way, screw partners to the wall to earn a good profit.
People might be generally 75% qualified, they just might lack the 'required 5 years experience' though I fail to see how
many indians in india could have that too. Did they have the internet in 1992 in india? NO, so I dont think
there are many old school guys there that grew up with computers when they were 14.
Someone who learns to program at the age of 14-15 is going to be a far more natural programmer I think.
Just like many 'prodigys' in arts and sports, they start early, or your too old to be learning it.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
The investigation showed, base salary averaging $71,000. Let's see, there's also health insurance, social security, worker's comp, unemployment insurance, etc. etc. Normally one would add on another 30% or so to cover benefits. So, salary plus benefits would come to $93K give or take. Bonus of 8%? Puts you up to $100 K. So, much as I hate to weigh in on Mr. Gates' side, on this one, the criticism is very unfair. Let's not dilute the legitimate critique of the Redmond Hegemon -- ultra-DRM in Vista, jacking up cost of OS for not benefit worth the cost, etc. etc. Hey, Bill, what's your response to Steve Job's brilliant piece on DRM? But, for the H1-B visas, the choice is, pay high-skilled valuable people more in the US, or pay them less in India Philippines China Pakistan Egypt etc etc etc. As I approach retirement, and do the calculations on the social security system, I say, open the gates to even low paid $50 K workers, instead of paying them $10K somewhere else!
Iiiiiiffffff you add in 'benefits' including 'benefits in kind', I am sure that Billiam is speaking something close to the truth. If you consider wage alone, this is absolute non-sense.
Assume that Billiams workforce is spread pretty evenly across the earnings spectrum. This is a pretty safe assumption considering how many employees M$ has.
Do the numbers and you will see that he would have to be paying a full 15% of his top earners that kind of money for the statement to be true.
Well, we happen to know that the top earners are almost universally not H1Bs. ( I can name about 10 of the top 50 that are almost universally natural born americans, mostly of Northern European decent).
Yet another example of Billiam spreading semi-truths I'm afraid.
And here's how this works, folks. They go to Eastern Europe and elsewhere and hire cream of the crop to entry level positions. You see, Microsoft has a system of "levels" according to which salaries and benefits are allocated. Typical starting level is 59. You can hire an average US college grad to that level (good ones go to Google these days), or you can go to, say, Moscow and hire a highly qualified, top notch software engineer with a few years of experience who has no opportunity to interview with Google first and whose negotiation skills equate to those of a squirrel. Who would you rather hire for your $70K? And you can keep L59 foreigner at 59 for much longer than a native, because his H1B process will only _start_ a year after he begins his employment and will take a few years (6 years and counting for some folks), during which moves are risky.
Now the thing is, both US college grad and experienced H1-B will be at the same starting level and will be paid the same wage. This DOES NOT mean they'll be doing the same job. There's a shortage of experienced folks, so the guy with experience will be doing things that require experience, when college grad will be doing something else. H1-B is therefore paid below the market wage for what he's doing (but not for his level). This, coupled with slower promotion rate puts him at a huge disadvantage. Given that promotion velocity is capped no matter how hard you bust your ass, you may never reach higher levels because you started lower and were promoted slower.
This is fully within the constraints of law, and not everyone ends up like this. I was in this situation and so were many of my H1-B coworkers.
Only if your definition of Programmer is a Coder. Microsoft is hiring Engineers.
As a hiring manager/Software Engineer, I can find plenty of coders. I can even get them cheap (less than $15/hour in India and less then $20/hour in Argentina). However I can't find a good Engineer. I typically have to work the social networks to find someone who knows someone good to steal from another company.
I've met plenty of folks that can code an algorithm when given one, but couldn't for the life of them come up with the algorithm on their own. Abstract things like design and problem decomposition require people that can think abstractly. That is a talent. Even if you got the talent, you have to want to use it.
You can't teach talent or desire.
There's something I don't understand...
Many here are quite convinced that H1Bs have to get paid the same as equivalent American workers. The company also has legal fees associated with this. Therefore, H1Bs must cost the company more than equivalent American workers.
If this is all true, why do companies do it? What could motivate them? For example, I find it implausible that there really isn't anybody available in Raleigh that can do network-protocol programming in C (despite what my employer's Labor Condition Applications say), but that's the only explanation, if we believe the comparable-pay arguments. It also presupposes that companies will pay more for higher-quality employees; also rather implausible.
I know the law says they have to get paid comparably... the law also says you can't use Kazaa, but it happens...
Sheesh - why am I not surprised.. most of my programmer collegues are working for retailers like K-mart because of the likes of that greedy billy boy.
How may people do YOU know that's been displaced by an Indian H1B holder?
And can us Yanks go over to India and find work? Heck no!!! the restrictions
imposed on Americans wanting to work for Indian programmer houses is nothing short
of amazing...
Then of course OUR educational institutions are also at fault... Yet in India, they have subsidized trade schools - thousands of them - big billboards are ALL over Mumbia saying "Live and work in America - learn C++ here!".
A good fix for this, is to inspire large companies to invest in trade schools to teach Americans the skills of programming and give them tax breaks for everyone they teach.
It's no big thing for a company to devote some of their office space (and equipment) to have and hold programming classes geared towards general programming skills, then offering the most qualified students a permenent job after their courses. This is investing in OUR (American) future... companies don't need to be going offshore to find programmers.
And again - another bug in the system are greedy American programmers charging upwards of
$150/hour.... I'm making a quite decent living making $50/hour... it more then pays my bills. Sure, I can't go out and buy a $5k Segway scooter, but I'm happy and most grateful I even HAVE a job.
If American contract programmers would start lowering their rates, then companies won't be forced to send their work offshore... so us programmers have to start being competitive not only in skills, but price as well, in order to make it in this so called "Global economy".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Russian programmers happy with getting $25 - $35/hour for their work? We (American programmers) have to start thinking of competing with these guys not only in quality of code, but for price as well, and unless this has changed, then you ARE going to get sneaky snakes like Bill Gates (a major political contributor) to lobby for huge increases in H1B visas which are taking our jobs.
Well, to me the interesting thing about Bill Gates is how pathetic his goals seem to be; or how limited the execution is compared to his apparent resources and abilities.
If I had Bill's money, I'd be funding a mission to Mars, building supercolliders, or something like that that would actually go down in history. Bill, on the other hand... he built himself a big house, lent money to people, and then gave the interest they paid back to charity; plus he made a few tiny (1% of net worth scale) donations himself.
Meanwhile Paul Allen is financing Burt Rutan's spaceflights; and Ted Turner has set up over a dozen "ranch" nature preserves with an area larger than the two smallest states put together, and created the Goodwill Games. Bill's sending checks to AIDS researchers seems very pedestrian and uninspired by comparison.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
I just love it when tech companies try to rationalize H1B visas. "We can't find enough qualified people" They *ALWAYS* leave out the second half of that sentence: "...at the salary we're willing to pay."
Supply and demand is a bitch sometimes, but it *does* work. If you were to pay, say, $1 million a year, Microsoft would probably have to hire armed guards to keep the horde at bay. If they are having problem finding qualified people at, say, $100k, perhaps they should try $120k, or $150k? But that's crazy talk...
H1B visas function as a corporate subsidy, creating a price-ceiling on domestic wages. It's strange how businesses think market economics is a wonderful thing, unless it happens to be against you. Then they run crying to Washington with a train of lobbyists to ask Uncle Sugar for "help".
There should be a law, that you aren't allowed to pass legislation that doesn't pass the muster of a freshman economics textbook.
Possibly Bill was talking about the cost to Microsoft rather than their take home pay. Benefits, social security etc.
Even so it would still be a pretty stupid thing to say.
meh
So either they pulled a bunch of the jobs in the last few hours, or....well, I'll leave that alone.
Let's have a look at the top 10 gdp and gdp/capita, shall we?
_ GDP_(nominal)_ GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
GDP:
-- European Union 13,502,800
1 United States 12,455,825
2 Japan 4,567,441
3 Germany 2,791,737
4 People's Republic of China 2,234,133 2
5 United Kingdom 2,229,472
6 France 2,126,719
7 Italy 1,765,537
8 Canada 1,132,436
9 Spain 1,126,565
10 Brazil 795,666
Per Capita:
1 Luxembourg 80,288
2 Norway 64,193
3 Iceland 52,764
4 Switzerland 50,532
5 Ireland 48,604
6 Denmark 47,984
7 Qatar 43,110
8 United States 42,000
9 Sweden 39,694
10 Netherlands 38,618
How many of those can plausibly claim to have gotten there through immigration? Many of them have been powerhouses for hundreds of years.
Far be it for me to suggest that a government actually puts the interests of its citizens ahead of random people from around the globe, or the fashion of not appearing "stagnant".
Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by
If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
Of course, your alternative assumes a lack of protectionist policies in place to stop the outsourcing.
Companies dedicated to maximizing shareholder wealth
+ no protectionist policies
= Either H1-B or outsourcing, take your pick
If the US govt had protectionist policies in place, MS might have lower profit margins but it would be forced to pay out higher salaries to get the people it wants. (Or some combination of less people or less qualified people.)
I can't really blame Gates for playing the game the way he's played it, there's a reason why he's at the top (and other companies, like Walmart). If we don't like the outcomes we have to change the rules.
If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
You are correct when applied to cooks, ditch diggers or welders and other mundane professions, but that simply does not apply for IT. In my experience, most people simply are not cut for IT. When I was in college, the best things about the introductary programs is that they weeded out the peons from the people with talent.
Being in IT is not about knowing Java, or knowing C++, its about the ability to rapidly adapt to new technologies. When my company interviews people, we ask questions to gauge this specific ability. If you cannot adapt to a new technology without going to a two month training course, you simply do not belong in IT.
When I worked in the US on an H1-B I easily made more than 100K a year and in my last year I made more than twice that, when counting options. And I worked for a lesser company than Microsoft as a regular programmer. That's not counting all the legal costs the company takes care of for visa matters and such.
Regardless of whether or not you were the best programmer in your class, maybe you didn't have the other skills employers look for when hiring somebody. Programmers who poop out code all day are great but most companies look for people with a little bit more than that these days.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to pooping out code.
Oh, a lesson in history from Mr. I'm my own grandpa.
DAR TAKIN' ER JERBS!!
Having worked for the empire, I can say that most H1B visa's are contract workers. The billing rate for those workers is in the neighborhood of $60/hr. So that is in the $100k range... Unfortunately most workers see somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 of that. They (managers) think they are getting some high-powered guru because of the high price tag. When in fact, they are probably just getting a pig in lipstick with a bloated resume to match. Woe is microsoft.... and all the people who use their products.
I was just speaking with our hiring manager yesterday; he was telling me about an "interesting" phone screen. Apparently this guy started out well; he was smart and answered the questions well. However, he started going on about how smart he was and how certain types of work are beneath him. Needless to say, we're not bringing him in to an interview. Based on your comment, it wouldn't be surprised if this person was you.
The real lie here is that employers don't even attest that they sought Americans. The heart of the H-1B visa-hiring program is an end around Equal Opportunity. Simply put, we can't apply for job openings reserved under the H-1B program.
So we're not surprised when companies run ads discriminating against American citizens and green card holders. Or when we see our colleagues out of work.
Bright Future Jobs is working to educate Congress and pass the "Defend the American Dream Act," so that employers are required to consider Americans.
The DOL's published statements stunned congressional offices we have lobbied:
1. As the DOL states in their Federal Register, "the statute does not require employers...to demonstrate that there are no available US workers or to test the labor market for US workers as required under the permanent labor certification program."
2. The DOL's Strategic Plan states: "...H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker."
Teams are now forming for this fight.
Broder is a hack. Gates' statements can be easily fact checked. When an employer brings in an H1B they have to file with the Dept. of Labor and indicate they made a good faith effort to recruit an American. They also have to report the salary being offered. I deal with this frequently at work (as critic not HR douche) and invariably the salaries are ridiculous. A quick glance at the database shows that Microsoft is not nearly as bad an abuser of the system as some (I've seen sub 40k for experienced software developers), but it doesn't average to 100k. Facts are our friends: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx
for a company that has them if you have a choice.
why not, instead of having huge political debates about cap-limits, impliment a market based solution... have the government SELL H1-b Visas for ~30K/year. any company can get as many as they want... they just have to pay. the proceeds could even be used for US Job re-training. no rational company could make artificial labor supplies because it just wouldn't be economic... but they can bring anyone they need in... as long as they need them badly enough to pay.
The 'no compete' agreement you signed on way back when before you lost your job to an offshore worker in India means that you cannot compete with the fact that an offshore worker in India gets paid US minimum wage + $2 per hour.
The math:
1. Offshore worker costs 10% to 20% of a USA based worker's cost (total cost)
2. USA worker's total cost is -> salary + (6.3% for medicare/social security) + (worker's compensation) + (health insurance) + (extra overhead)
3. Simplifying, the USA worker's total cost is roughly (base salary % 1.333)
4. An india worker's equivalent USA based salary would be
-> Total cost = USA worker wage * 20% (e.g., $90K * 0.20 = $18k)
-> Base salary = $18k * 1/1.333 = $13.5k
Therefore, a USA based IT worker would have to have a base salary of $13,500 to compete head to head with the total cost of an India worker.
How many of you would like to make $13,500 a year which is about (minimum wage + $1 per hour)?
Why would a person spend time and thousands of dollars getting a 4 year college degree to make what you could make at any local McDonalds?
Check out the rank ordered list of bi-variate ecological correlations with autism (ecology at the State level):
e .cgi [laboratory...states.com]
a 1998) bettering r1=0.416806570345255 and r2=0.429065274233648e rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.0415403559840862 and r2=0.428994227300325e rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.032753948828485 and r2=0.433268832849086e rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.0386533075155627 and r2=0.428994227300325e rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.0293946227549309 and r2=0.433268832849086q uareMilePerYear1941to1996) bettering r1=0.416806570345255 and r2=-0.2456620400828468 ) bettering r1=0.473217563942744 and r2=0.3948977437946e rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.0504680681454933 and r2=0.415965047850537 ) bettering r1=0.416806570345255 and r2=0.322376040851882 ... etc.
Maximum by-State bivariate corelations with autism percapita 2000.
The following lines each contain the following items:
1) Correlation coefficient.
2) A function applied to adjust a State's percapita autism.
() means no function applied.
sqrt() means the square root was taken.
log() means the natural logarithm was taken.
3) The bivariate formula predicting the previously adjusted autism rate.
4) r1 is the correlation of the first variable alone with autism.
5) r2 is the correlation of the second variable alone with autism.
To generate a scattergram and see the raw data:
See http://laboratoryofthestates.com/cgi-bin/correlat
then enter "AutismPercapita2000SansOregonAndMass" for the vertical
and the formula given below for the horizontal.
-----------------
0.600310870050065 () sqrt(FinnishPercapita1990*ImmigrantsIndiaPercapit
0.599979036637678 sqrt() log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP1999*ImmigrantsNonWesternP
0.599618721521368 log() log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP1999*ImmigrantsNonWesternP
0.594501164716388 sqrt() log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP2000*ImmigrantsNonWesternP
0.593739683661006 log() log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP2000*ImmigrantsNonWesternP
0.590410355019427 () sqrt(FinnishPercapita1990/UFOReportsPercapitaPerS
0.589344939529547 () (FinnishPercapita1990*ImmigrantsIndiaPercapita199
0.588776855937162 () log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP1999*ImmigrantsNonWesternP
0.586104765698104 () sqrt(FinnishPercapita1990*H1BWithJobsPercapita199
Seastead this.
fscked up moderation, please ignore.
I still don't see why Americans think the global economy-- yes, it's global, accept it-- should go any easier on them than anyone else.
I don't think that's the case at all - if anything Americans (and citizins of other westernized countries) have it harder on them. Imagine if India had a social safety net in place that guaranteed the quality of life for all citizens that the poorest Americans (or Swiss or Spanish, etc.) on government assistance (not those with mental health issues on top of it or in failed "housing projects") are 'required' to have. A clean apartment that passes building codes with a refrigerator (with reliable electricity), clean water, a stove (with a gas supply), nutritious food to stock the above, heat, top-notch health care, and job training.
I'd venture the tax rates increase in India to support a system for an additional 300 Million Indian citizens would drive the wage levels up to the point where the cost savings wouldn't be as stark, which would decrease their competitiveness. In a real way, American corporations are profiting on the backs of those living in conditions that wouldn't have passed muster for the slaves in the US South a hundred and fifty years ago. The same can be said again for those folks in China whose water has been polluted by our waste or their cheap industry.
To a certain degree we support the increased load here, and chalk it up as a function of ensuring human rights and doing the right thing. On the other hand, it's not a level playing field, and that makes competition hard. We used to tax the things we didn't approve of with tarrifs but the WTO agreements have completely botched that. That leaves little to do for the average Joe but complain.
Obviously these things don't apply to the H1B workers, but I think they get caught up in the wake of the resentment of being asked to compete unfairly. Maybe what we need is a tax bracket for folks whose jobs are in competition from overseas to exempt them from income, property and sales tax. I say that rhetorically as it'd never be accepted, but the truth is I pay more in property taxes than many overseas workers make in a year, and I'm barely able to pay the bills.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
This one is kind of outdated, it represents the state I was in at the end of 2003, when I finally decided resumes don't do anybody any good. I went a different tack- I spent the next 2.5 years triming outdated skills off of this already-trimed resume, and contracting for the State
So basically, you just gave up at 2003 and decided that for the next four years, that "resumes don't do any good?". Seriously Mr. Van Winkle, you need to wake up!
I don't know anything about Portland, but on the East Coast you would do fine. Your resume is fine, and here the only way that you would not have a job is if you go into a phone screen or an interview and act like an idiot (which sadly is very common).
There is no doubt about it, that 2003 was a shitty year. But I can speak personally as somebody that was at both sides of the fence (as a job seeker and as someone with input in the hiring process), both in 2004 and 2006. In 2004, posting a tech job position online resulted in you getting innundated by resumes, and companies would have to cull the avalanche of resumes because noone had time to phone screen, much less interview everybody.
In 2006, I was trying to fill a position and expected the same avalanche of resumes; it didn't come, and the people that we interviewed and liked got better jobs elsewhere. At the same time I got frustrated by my job and got inspired to jump ship. I posted my resume online and got innundated - by recruiters. And I got a job that was more satisfying and my pay jumped up.
Seriously dude, I know you've given up, and that thats what your problem is. Like I said, I don't know much about Portland, but judging from your Slashdot posting history, if you spend half of the effort into looking for a job as you spend on Slashdot complaining about the job market, you would have a job. And a good one at that.