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Dell Censors IdeaStorm Linux Dissent
thefickler writes "It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like. That's exactly what Dell is doing with its IdeaStorm website, which the company set up to solicit such ideas and feedback. Dell deleted a post linking to an article that criticizes its handling of the 'pre-installed Linux' issue."
See something you don't like? Suppress it!
Go ahead, mod me down, fuckers. Your mother is a Java programmer.
Dude, you bought a [DELETED]
mod me funny
Michael Dell is back as the Chairman... Steve Balmer is a chairman..
chair and chair alike.....
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
I didn't read the article because for some reason it's blocked at work (we have odd filters), but it's possible the post containing the link didn't meet the requirements.
If I asked for some ideas, I would be open minded about what I received. If I got complaints instead with no ideas (not sure if the link gave suggestions or just complained), I would also remove them to try and stop the forum from becoming a flame war.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
So they deleted a post critical of them. The post then appeared on a private blog without risk of legal reprisal. No **rights** were violated unless this was allowed in the TOS, and even then those are rights granted by Dell at their site, not legal rights. It's stupid, tacky and self-defeating. I don't think anyone thinks this was a smart move on Dell's part, but it's not real censorship like what we fear. He is free to post the same post, 5x more vitriolic (provided it's all still true), anywhere he wants.
Besides, who in their right mind thought this was something more than astroturfing on Dell's part?
It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like.
Why, does asking for opinions imply that you agree to follow and publish every one of them? They might have had a different kind of feedback in mind, like new models with a different hardware feature set.
To the degree that the goal is to persuade Dell to support Linux, reinforcing the impression that Linux users are a bunch of hypersensitive crackpots who think the world owes them everything seems counterproductive.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
This is the way of corporate and web relations nowadays. Lets sum up in a list, shall we?
1. Corporation screws customers
2. Someone on the web blogs about it
3. Social networking sites pick up on it
4. Semi-mainstream media and maybe even real MSM pick it up
5. Corp backpedals
6. Everyone forgets about the transgression
7. Profit! (for the corp)
We don't even need ellipsis. We've been through this enough to know where the profit comes from at this point.
"There are more important things than stopping terrorism. Upholding the Constitution is one of them." - Ars Forumer.
Why is it pointless to censor people making you look bad on your own website?
really, when was the last time that YRO had a positive story?
i disable sigs
I once went to a restaurant and ordered a steak, medium-rare. I know a lot of people would rather have their steaks cooked well-done, grey all the way through. I'm not one of them. I like the tenderness that a little undercooking provides. The blood filling the plate is a delectable gravy to be sopped up with some bread. There really isn't anything I like better than a thick slab of ribeye cooked crispy on the outside and pink all the way through.
You can imagine my surprise when they delivered a mash of ground beef and some wretched oil-soaked fries on the side. I said to the waitress, this isn't what I ordered. She was unmoved. I demanded that I talk to a manager. This little pissant 20-something comes out and asks me if there is anything he can help me with. I shoved the order in his face and asked him if he thought it was a steak, medium-rare.
No, sir.
Then why the hell did you serve it to me? Are you telling me I can't order my meal the way I want it and expect a modicum of service?
Sir, this is Burger King. You can have it your way, within the bounds of our menu.
I suppose I should have gone to the steak restaurant if I wanted steak.
If there's censorship, why would the thread "Stop making excuses, and start paying attention. WE WANT LINUX!!!" still be live?
I think it is important for everyone to understand that First Amendment rights don't exist on Websites, blogs, and message forums. Those that own those communication platforms are free to delete or censure anything they feel necessary to maintain the spirit and intentions of both the supporting business and the site as a whole.
What exacerbates the issue is whenever a moderation activity takes place against either the open source community, or the Linux community, the reaction is swift, dramatic, and overdone. OMFG my post was removed.. it is a conspiracy!!!
So what! Dell removed a post on a site that was soliciting user input. Aren't there bigger problems in the world?
If I asked you to come in my house, and provide me feedback on how my living room looks, and you responded "that's the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen," then I would probably censure you and throw you out.
Lindsay Blanton
RadioReference.com
There has to be some moderation of flame-bait and trolling posts on any forum. Moreover, the post was deleted probably by an overzealous moderator, rather than through some evil Dell mastermind with a conspiracy against linux.
Dell is within their rights to sell systems preloaded with whatever Microsoft thinks consumers should run.
Consumers are perfectly within their rights to purchase the hardware they want.
As a Linux (or *BSD) user, what I want is simple: hardware that will work. I don't expect any hand-holding, and I wouldn't trust *any* vendor's pre-loaded software, since I have no way to know where it came from. When I shop for hardware, I open the box to see what the actual chipsets are; sometimes, I buy several, since I know the vendor might change the hardware later. All I really need is a vendor who (a) uses chipsets for which drivers are available, and (b) lists the chipsets on the outside of the box (or webpage, or whatever). Vendors can't even do this much, so I've learned not to expect anything from them, and they don't seem to care about the lost sales from my 2% of the market.
Put another way: would it really violate Dell's Microsoft OEM agreement to divulge the chipsets they've built their hardware on? Or are they afraid they might tip their hand to the competition, who would go out and design hardware around those same chipsets? The whole thing is mighty stupid, if you asked me (which you didn't).
The irony of the Dell+Linux camp is every linux fanboy swears up and down dell sucks and they would never buy one but at the same time think Linux is self defeating if Dell doesn't pre-install it.
What is it? why let the tempers flair? If you can't be sincere about something without sounding immature, irrelevent and childish what is the sense of Dell even catering to you or justifying your actions by supporting them on their systems?
Its dells forums, its dells channel of communication. They can do as they see fit and the irony of this entire debate merely shows the lack of responsibility on behalf of people who are trying there damndest to think they're the best for reasons that mean NOTHING to a corporation or its clients.
I didn't see the original post that was deleted, but in general, you'll find, especially on public boards, that criticisms don't always fit under the category of ideas. Constructive criticism would do well on a board called IdeaStorm, but if you are simply saying "Your implementation sucks," it's not much of an idea.
Again, didn't see the deleted post.
This is the equivalant of a slashdot moderator moderating a post -1 off-topic or -1 troll. With the obvious exception is that there is no ability to read at -1 on dellideastorm.
Ideas and suggestions are one thing. Posting an off-topic criticism is another.
Note: I do not agree with the choice to remove the post. But I also understand the reasoning behind the decision.
I swear, the bias and overeacting around here is as bad as fox news lately. Censorship... please. China has censorship. This little Dell forum moderation is peanuts compared to REAL censorship. Get a grip, Slashdot.
if you don't think Dell does it for you, go Apple, whitebox, closet scraping, whatever for your next peecee. if they don't catch on, they don't deserve to be around. witness compusa.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Dell is paying consumers to use Windows! The exact same Dell Latitude D520 Notebook costs $48 MORE if it comes with no operating system than if it comes with Windows.
The laptop loaded with Windows XP costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system costs $747. Note that you must change the following two hardware options on the web page showing laptop without an OS so that they match the hardware options found by default for the Windows laptop: Hard drive=60GB 5400RPM and Modular Bay Optical="8X DVD".
So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! It looks like Dell is still subsidizing Microsoft for every Windows-free laptop they sell. I'm getting my laptop from System76 -- they sell excellent quality Linux laptops, desktops, and servers. They also have a great support team that cares about Linux and open source.
Clearly they saw those criticisms, so I don't think they're being totally ignored. I'm willing to bet they're well noted as the concerns of a vocal minority. And there's the rub... Dell doesn't HAVE to do jack sh*t just to appease a few Linux activists. Their main business is going to remain, for quite a while, wintel machines. As to their website, it's their website, they can do whatever the hell they want. Don't like it? Don't buy from them. Easy enough.
If the site was to gather Ideas to help Dell meet customer's needs and improve
their quality then it is indeed a failure.
If the site was to show Microsoft that the biggest gripes their customers have are with
Microsoft's products on Dell's systems and therefore Dell should be getting the products for free
or be payed to install them, then the site was a success.
Showing evidence that the second is the case on the site in question destroyes the leverage with Microsoft so must be removed. Remember Dell used to every year float the rumour of switching to AMD during their negotiations with intel and kept the lowest prices on intel parts for darn near a decade doing so. But intel had much more leverage with Dell than Microsoft does. For that decade AMD didn't have the capability to produce the volume Dell requires. There is no equivalent problem for Dell to move away from MS.
Microsoft needs dell more than dell needs microsoft. Corporate customers negotiate their own licenses with MS. Dell could stop selling any MS product and ship Linux to their home users and Microsoft loses huge. Dell is just afraid to support Linux on their systems. As it is now its easier to blame MS than to have to actually support a customer.
It does no one good to support a half-cocked agenda.
Is there a pattern? The article mentions one deleted post, but there are several on the Dell site that are not exactly flattering, to say the least. Lots of people just went off on an anti-Dell rant, and had nothing constructive to say at all.
Dell is right, in that it'll take a lot of work to get everything ready. If they sell it, they have to support it. That means training both sales and support staff; verifying what hardware has Linux drivers; etc. There is a LOT of work for them to do.
I've always thought Dell underestimated the Linux market. I know the last place I worked ordered about 10 Dell rack servers per month, without O/S. Debian was installed when we got them. However, Dell has two options on their order form: "No OS Installed - Microsoft Windows" and "No OS Installed - Red Hat Linux". Both are just there for "counting" purposes, since you don't get either OS with either option. It defaults to the Microsoft option, and I know our ordering personnel never bothered to change it. That skews their stats towards Windows and away from Linux.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
That being said, you also have it look at it from Dell's perspective... if a very vocal minority representing a tiny fraction of your customer base offered up an "idea" and stuffed the ballot box to make it look larger than life, how seriously would you take it?
Frankly, my mom could care less if Linux came on a Dell... and if it did, she still wouldn't buy it because it probably wouldn't run AOL.
If she did buy it thinking she was saving a few bucks, she'd probably be rather upset that she couldn't find anything, it was completely different than what she used at work, and she could no longer sign onto her AOL email to send me another freaking hallmark eCard for St Patricks Day.
Note: I don't agree with the censorship at all, but I do think that particular post was unreasonable. Given the low voting rate, I suspect a lot of others positive to the idea of Linux on Dells felt this way to some extent also.
34486853790
Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
Apple's discussion groups, to name one, just because I'm familiar with it.
"Censorship" is the wrong word because it refers to the removal of information by government officials, and as far as I know neither Apple nor Dell is the government, yet. (Not even Microsoft is the government. Yet.) I don't think the Terms and Conditions of company-sponsored forums generally include a Bill of Rights. Nor do they generally promise that you will be able to read everything that anyone else has posted.
Infuriating? Sure. Surprising? No. The forums are there to boost the company, and whenever any Forum becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the Corporation to alter or to abolish it.
(Remember Prodigy in the good old days? They would remove forum items as being "off-topic." Any attempt to discuss why the items were removed would be removed as "off-topic." Any attempt to criticize Prodigy in any way would be removed as "off-topic." And when users tried to get around the forum restrictions by organizing mailing lists, Prodigy promptly changed the previously-free email to twenty-five free emails per month, and a significant charge--$0.25 each, IIRC--for any beyond that!)
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
The editors are feeding a troll again. Dell did not open this forum to get educated about the freedom of speech. They wanted people to tell them how they can "improve [their] products and services". Pretty clear, is it not? An inflammatory comment about their way of supporting GNU/Linux does not belong there. Read TFA, the author makes it sound like Dell is spitting on the GNU/Linux community by opting to (gasp) certify the hardware rather than install and support some random distribution.
It certainly is annoying to those, who posted the removed feedback, but it is not at all pointless for Dell to do so. They've received it and read it. They may remove it to make themselves look better (or try to, rather), or they may simply want to filter (what they perceive as garbage) out.
Their point may have've been to get ideas they would like — removing others may make sense.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
One man's censor is another man's editor.
You know you want to. Remember the radix sort story?
The post in question is a semi-incoherent rant. If I didn't want to offer Linux, I'd keep it up and point to it, saying, "this is what we'd have to deal with if we supported Linux."
If he simply said that Dell reneged on a promise; or that it was making a mistake by not offering Linux preinstalls, I could see a nefarious PR motive behind dropping the post. But it sounds like it was written by a manic depressive who's of his meds.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You really should understand the word Censorship and how it is defined.
Read Wikipedia or Websters
Censorship does not require government. It is the removal of information from the public, or the prevention of circulation of information, where it is desired or felt best by some controlling group or body that others are not allowed to access the information which is being censored.
It qualifies!
It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like.
Maybe it's pointless but everybody does it all the time. Half the time, if I say, "hey, what do you think of X?" I'm looking for, "X is really great, you did a good job on it." It's psychological, don't tell me you don't do the same.
Dell deleted a post linking to an article that criticizes its handling of the 'pre-installed Linux' issue.
Sounds to me that they deleted a post linking to a whiny bitch. Let's try this little summary mixer;
"It seems pointless to submit ideas and feedback to Dell if you're going to write a whiny article because they don't do exactly what you want."
Besides, Dell is a huge corporation. They're investigating a process to get their hardware approved by Linux distributers. For a huge corporation, that's a major undertaking... I'm sure whoever wrote that whiny article was looking for, "yes sir, we'll have those on shelves tomorrow!" as a response.
Comment of the year
The reason this matters is that there are no Linux laptops available from any vendor bigger than a garage shop.
Yes, there's Linux Certified, in the same building with Mr. Chau's Chinese Fast Food in San Jose. And there's System76, whose address is a Pak Mail in Denver.
If you're selling hardware that may have to be maintained or replaced, you need to be bigger than that to play.
Of course, once upon a time there was VA Linux, but we know what happened to them.
"they sell excellent quality Linux laptops, desktops, and servers."
Just curious. Have you already purchased systems from them? How did you come to this conclusion?
Thanks
Slashdot posts frequently modded down to "-1, Flamebait", many /. users cry censorship... ... oh wait ...
"Hey Dell thanks for considering Linux support but if you don't let me clog up your forums with whatever crap I choose to spew out and roll out Linux exactly the way I want you to I'm going post inflammatory articles about you on Slashdot and try to turn the community against you!"
And people wonder why the major PC vendors have zero interest in supporting the Linux community.
Look at the ideastorm homepage. It's almost all opensource and/or linux posts. If they were censoring, there wouldn't be any. Maybe they just deleted a duplicate post?
-- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
shouldn't the headline read "Dell doesnt want to hear from whiny crab asses"
An odd thought though:
Is all censorship bad?
For instance, what do you call the removal of incorrect information from the public eye (say, on Wikipedia)? Technically that's censorship, but nobody complains.
I think the issue is not about pure technical censorship, but oppressive censorship that actually infringes on people's rights - which typically can only be done by governments.
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
Look, guys, this is DELL. Do you honestly think a company that rivets its cases shut is a good candidate for open source? I'm not a bit surprised that they charge more for an OSless box than a Linux box, or that they would remove a critical posting on their blogsite.
Like most of you, I'm the support guy for friends (who are in turn support guys for my leaking roof needs, auto reapir needs, etc. What are friends for if not to help?).
So anyway, Mike's wife bought a Dell a few years back for the teenaged kids to do homework on. Despite their lack of a broadband connection, being out in the sticks (one of Mike's hobbies was raising hogs), it didn't take very long for the computer to be filled with all kinds of malware. So Mike calls me, of course. MIke's hogs are yummie...
I FDISK the hard drive, reinstall Windows, and add Zone Alarm and Firefox and an anti-spyware program and suggest that they buy some AV software.
Several months to a year later, it's right back where it was - needing a reformat and reinstall. But by this time I'd fixed Jeff's eMachines PC by making it dual boot, with Mandriva 2005 on one side and XP with networking disabled on the other side. Jeff's computer never gave anybody any trouble after that (until a power surge fried it. Damn it, Jeff, I told you to spend ten bucks on s surge suppressor, you cheap dumbass).
So I figure I'd do the same to Mike's Dell as I'd done for Jeff's eMachines, make it dual boot with networking disabled on the Windows side.
But Mandriva wouldn't install - Dell had a non-standard partition with Dell tools on it that Mandriva's installer choked on. Try as I might, I couldn't get Mandriva to install on that box.
Being the obstinate (to the point of obnoxiousness) nerd that I am, I figure I'll drag out a spare hard drive, install Linux on that, and be done with it.
That's when I discovered the rivets. I have been badmouthing Dell to everyone I talk about computers with ever since. "I'm buying a computer," they say, "which one should I buy?"
"Anything but a Dell" is my answer. "If you buy a Dell and it breaks, you have to throw it away, I can't fix it." Yes, that's not 100% true; I could drill the rivets out and put screws in, but fuck 'em. I refuse to work on a Dell any more, at least until they change their policies. If I find that company X has a non-standard partition next to the Windows partition and has its case riveted shut, the answer will be "anybody but Dell or X".
-mcgrew (MRC="sanctify"
Maybe he knows someone who has bought from them already? Maybe thats how he found out about System76. I found out about them from a slashdot post but I haven't purchased anything from them. Maybe he got one of their desktops already and is shopping around for a Laptop?
Sooner or later, Dell will either conform with consumer demand, or they will lose market share. Yes, Microsoft will continue to put up obstacles, but there's still enough competition in the hardware market that they can't control things forever. If you want evidence of this, take a look at the recent results of HP's choice to support Debian.
Anyway, I don't blame them for deleting a troll post.
include $sig;
1;
The truth is that Dell could be giving him Linux today. Dell makes excuses about having to ramp up support. Dell has sold Linux before, they know how to do it. We bought a box from them. The support came from Red Hat, not Dell. The reality is that Dell wouldn't even be doing the OS support! They farm it out to Suse or Red Hat or whomever.
Oh, but they have to guarantee hardware compatibility. Heck, I can do that in an hour or two. I build boxes all the time with info I get off the internet.
The truth is that they're not going to make Linux easy to get if at all. M$ owns their asses.
I feel like death on a soda cracker.
The deleted post didn't have any suggestions. All it did was rag on Dell for apparently flip-flopping on preinstalls of Linux.
However, deleting the post was a mistake. It opens the door to accusations of insincerety, cover ups, astroturfing, and so forth. It could show Dell hasn't enough respect for freedom of speech, or is too arrogant and sure of themselves. No, of course they own the site and have every right to do anything they want with it. But that doesn't mean they should, or no one will visit. or believe in the sincerety of the posts. If Dell thinks it's okay to delete that post because it wasn't really suggesting anything, or was not constructive, what else might they in their sole opinion judge deserving of deletion? Filtering spam is one thing, but this post however unconstructive it was, was not spam. Why couldn't they set up another forum for rants or whatever, and simply move the post there? If whoever decided to delete that post ran for public office, I would not vote for that person, would you?
This incident suggests that Dell picked the wrong people to moderate their new forum. They sound like the sort of people who come down too heavy on the enforcement because they feel it's safer for their own jobs. They see how easily Mr. Dell could have them fired if the tone of the forums turns into mindless Dell bashing even if Mr. Dell never said or implied he would do any such thing, and how very difficult it would be for the deletion of a post from some random disgruntled poster to cause the same. These same people would certainly not be above a little astroturfing either. The boss wants this forum idea to work, and they're going to MAKE it work! So much for the credibility of that forum.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3822185143.htm
It seems we have our answer.
think the issue is not about pure technical censorship, but oppressive censorship that actually infringes on people's rights - which typically can only be done by governments. And religious organizations, Social Groups, Big Corporations, and many other groups. It is not hard to censor in the definition you are attempting to create. From NEC paying news papers not to publish information (Yes, First Hand Knowledge) To pharmaceutical removing data to reduce or stop lawsuits, to Religious organizations using their large groups of believers to remove books from the library. It does not take a government to censor. It only takes a group of people who can exert influence over others. For instance, what do you call the removal of incorrect information from the public eye (say, on Wikipedia)? Technically that's censorship, but nobody complains. Now you are mixing Editing with censorship. Wikipedia (by the nature of the design) allows everyone the ability to edit the information. A history is kept and you can look at the changes. I do not have a problem with editing. If Dell had removed the post and stated why they removed it or moved it to an area for complaints I would not have a problem with it.
I didn't read the post (getting better at this /. thing) but I'd imagine that an inflammatory article wasn't particularly helpful to the idea process... in fact in my experience, something like that generally means the person is lacking in the idea department but has to say something anyway. In this case it seems the equivalent of suggesting the variable "dog" for a program about banking. Next thing you know you have a bunch of clutter and comments about a dog that just aren't necessary and just slow the programming down. Personally I'm quite alright with them removing something totally useless from their idea board.
pre-loaded windows systems come full of advertisement crap such as free AOL installs which will dramatically decrease the cost of the PC to you and me. This is one of the many ways PC manufacturers keep the cost of the machine down. It's very likely that the advertising revenue is greater than the pittance they pay for the OS in their ginormous OEM contract so it doesn't surprise me at all. There won't be any advertising software in that machine with no OS and there's unlikely to be advertising software pre-loaded onto a linux machine. It's unlikely to be a major conspiracy, occam's razor and what not. Alternatively, maybe they could start selling PCs with a giant AOL logo on the side of the case. I'm sure that would go over well.
Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
Actually pirating Microsoft and Adobe have increased revenues significantly. Piracy gained them the market(mind) share that made them the juggernauts they are today. Lack of piracy has kept Apple where it is today, but that could be what they want. Being a niche player has its advantages. And in some enterprises Apple is the juggernaut.
What?
From my personal experience we don't need no freaking support from them anyway. The last Dell laptop I used didn't completely blow donkey balls when I installed Linux on it. I was able to get high resolution, the docking station, wireless and the ethernet cards to work and was able to spin the fans up from sofware for when I ran Wine (Which always seems to want to cause a meltdown.) It also didn't give me third degree penis burns when I tried to use it in my lap. You always had plenty of warning when Wine was heating the machine up to penis boiling temperatures.
I don't see why their company policy with Linux can't just be "Probably won't suck donkey balls. Won't boil your penis," and leave it at that. I mean really, we're linux people, what more do we really need?
Of course these days I'm quite happy with the PPC Powermac I use. It never gets more than warm, wireless and ssh worked right out of the box and I didn't feel a burning urge to replace the OS the moment I turned it on. So sorry, Dell, even though your product doesn't suck donkey balls and doesn't boil my penis, the guys with the black tee shirts and the hair mousse still win.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I have owned and run a few computer companies. The first thing you learn is that word of mouth is worth it's weight in GOLD! Provided it is good word of mouth, bad word or mouth can kill a small company. With the advent of the internet, companies are now closer to there customer base than ever before. No longer can they ignore the customer, treat the customer like crap, etc. As they continue to enter into this space they will have to adjust their thinking. Change the way they respond and act towards the customer and provide GOOD customer service. Proper customer service and utilizing the advantages of the internet can truly change the way a business is perceived.
:)
For now they are on a learning curve. They have not been a small business in many years and they now have to relearn what they have lost. (Customer service) A note here, if Dell wanted help in this area I can show them the In's and Out's for a price.
To the people who have used the excuse that Linux is only 2% of the computer world. That means that the number of Linux users in the US alone is in the neighborhood of 4 Million!
Based on 2% of the HOME computers in the US! If a market of 4 million users is too small for Dell, Dell NEEDS to go under!
I'm calling Bullshit. Its still there About 2/3 of the way down the page. People really need to do just a little research before comming to these assumptions. It just got bumbed off the main page on the hacked down main page because they cant fit all of the comments there.
If i had one dollar for every brain you dont have, i would have $1.
Seriously good financial move for Dell to tell the Linux crowd to hold their horses and shove off. Hey I have an idea. Instead of crying about it why don't you start a company that sells Linux PCs???!! Good luck with that. Yeah I posted AC. Someone had to say it. I love karma.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
...OH RIGHT! The Intel Opinion Center on Slashdot! Where all the previous stories and comments were deleted due to overwhelming negative opinions! So where is the article about Slashdot and Intel censoring Slashvertisement dissent? I'm not saying Digg is better or worse, but at least articles showing Digg in a negative light occasionally make it to the front page. Slashdot would never post an article critical of itself, especially dealing with "sensitive" issues such as comment deletion. Mod this comment up if you want to stick it to the man. Mod this comment down if you are a pansy.
... from interactive public forums is they really DON'T want what it's going to deliver. The company managers see how popular this trendy "web 2.0" (ugh...) stuff is, where websites are dynamic and customers can interact with each other. They want their company site to work like MySpace in that people can be social and interact. They think it'll be good for business.
But then, when opinions are posted that don't jive with the official company marketing material, they want to pull it. You can't have it both ways! Either have a fully open, free area where people can have honest discussions without censorship or don't bother.
This is exactly why I have not set up user comments or "blogging" abilities on my company's website. I know the managers wouldn't like it if negative opinions on the company or our products were posted (not like there is any real reason for that to happen, but you never know).
So, the HP laptops that come with FreeDOS don't count?
... or whatever on it.
Then, you can install Ubuntu, SuSe, Red Hat, Gentoo, Debian, FreeBSD, OpenBSD,
If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
I expect tricks like goofy proprietary hardware that requires special drivers only found on the Dell-branded linux restore disk, close source software that actually adds value, but is only on the restore disk, etc.
The mass-market Windows laptop outsells all other configurations.
Not in small numbers but in big numbers. Really big numbers. The mass-market Windows laptop is priced lower than all other configurations but delivers more profit at less cost to the direct seller or big box retailer.
Dell markets the bare bones PC to commercial clients purchasing in volume. OEM Linux disappears from Walmart.com.
End of story.
"Censorship" is the wrong word because it refers to the removal of information by government officials...
I wish you fellows would learn about dictionary.com and wikipedia!
From the dictionary: "deleting parts of publications or correspondence or theatrical performances" is one definition; most posted there are circular, "the act of censoring" and a few talk of Roman censors.
Wikipedia's writeup is far more informative: "Censorship is the removal of information from the public, or the prevention of circulation of information, where it is desired or felt best by some controlling group or body that others are not allowed to access the information which is being censored. Typically censorship is undertaken by governments, or by established bodies (religions or the mass media), although self-censorship and other forms also exist."
You might want to use that dictionary to look up the word "typically". You'd think nerds would know how to lkook stuff up, wouldn't you?
Dell is just taking a neutral position with regard to Linux. They know that the majority of customers that would use Linux would not want to use whatever distribution they chose. This is actually a better response from Dell we are getting than we might get from some other business where they wear their ties a bit too tight and think that since the Linux community has not reached a concensus on "the one distribution", they can't go with Linux.
What Dell could do in this case, however, is include a CD/DVD of any distribution that the distribution maker wants to provide. Maybe Ubuntu could give an architecture-matching CD to each Dell customer to be included in with the machine as shipped?
Personally I would prefer Dell actually not install Linux pre-loaded. That way, they won't have to say to me "Please put the Redhat system back on so we can test the ethernet card you say is dead". Ideally, a live CD should be provided to handle all hardware diagnostics done from the software side, anyway.
Deleting a comment, though, is just a bit tacky (I would if it were spam).
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
if only temporarily.
The corporation wants that money.
One way they offer lower prices is by doing free advertizing on slashdot.
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
Looks like they deleted the comment because it was off topic to me. Its an idea website, not a place to bash a companies bad marketing decisions. He could have been smarter about the way he posted his comment and it would have stayed and probably actually improved the situation as apposed to being deleted.
Hi, I had posted the article on the site. The reason they took it down is because I openly suggested that the reason that they did not want to preload free Linux distributions like Ubuntu, FC, and openSuSE on inspirons and other affordable models was because they have a non-disclosed OEM agreement with Steve Ballmer. I named Steve Ballmer by name, and I mentioned that such an agreement violates the antitrust settlement Microsoft agreed to with the US Department of Justice.
6 78
They clearly got upset and pulled it. The negative article link probably didn't help.
Dell needs to wake up or get out of the computer business. I'll say it here again, Supply does NOT fuel demand.
And they will lose market share regardless of what OEM license discount Ballmer gives them to opt out of Linux on retail systems, because their own customers don't want that anymore.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=9
Remember this 90% discount to Munich, but they still refused.
Well, don't ask yourself why Dell won't load Ubuntu, it's clear they took it, and will continue to take it.
The answer is simple, just don't buy a Dell. Tigerdirect.com laptops are much nicer, cheaper, and you can put whatever you want on them.
It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like. That's exactly what Intel and Slashdot has done with its "Opinion Center" website.
Hmmm...
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
As a Dell employee, I'd like the opportunity to clear up some confusion. Dell isn't censoring dissent on IdeaStorm. If ideas are submitted and they turn out to be the same, we have been asked by the IdeaStorm community to merge them -- as well as any votes cast and comments logged -- for simplicity. To be clear, all votes and comments tied to an idea are added to the merged idea -- they do not go away. In this case, that is exactly what happened. We will, however, per the site's terms of service, delete input that is not an idea, or merely a digital reprint or link to a news article.
Hey Dell, DUDE, I'm getting apache! https://membership2.dell.com/macanada/signin.aspx? s=gen&l=en&c=ca&cs=cadhs1
Server Error in '/' Application.
The resource cannot be found.
Yes, I am a customer, wait no, I was a customer. I just tried logging into my Dell.ca account to file an official complaint but the frail and fragile IIS and Windows server couldn't take the ASCII HTTP POST beating that the login button seemed to present.
Who the hell runs critical applications on Windows?
Your definition is correct, but your qualification isn't. Dell is not trying to keep the masses from knowing this information (was there even any info, sounds to me it was just a rant). Dell is simply trying to keep the website clear of possibly inflamitory posts that have no added value to idea generation.
/. should be enough indication there is no censorship.
It would only qualify as censorship if Dell attempted to have the information removed from all forums and webpages. The fact that it's being discussed on
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
They might have had a different kind of feedback in mind, like new models with a different hardware feature set.
In that case, they really were not interested in giving customers what they want. Why pretend you are interested if you are not?
It's worth waiting for them to get it. Tens of thousands of users asking for Linux might really have surprised them. I'm surprised they published the results. The reasons given by the Wintel press for Dell not installing Linux right away are bogus and I'm not sure they are shared by Dell. In time, Dell may understand which way the wind is blowing and where they should be making their money.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The whole "it's not worth supporting Linux because it has such a small market share" argument now finally shows its hand.
1) delete all evidence of Linux users.
2) claim that nobody uses Linux.
3) profit from MS.
Well, that doesn't look like a marketing plant at all! ;)
But yeah, I agree that we gotta suport vendors who sell linux enabled platforms by default.
It doesn't matter one way or another with the itentions of the bulletin board or what action they took. This just exemplifies Dell customer service and customer care. I think that is more of what people are bitchin about. I think anytime you have to put up with crappy Customer Service you'll throw a dart at the company whenever you can.
I had a phone call from their Customer Service group about an order, they left it on my voice mail, I passed it around to four of my co-workers and asked them if they could tell me what this guy was talking about. Only one person guessed that it was from Dell. I wasn't sure until the next day and a Dell rep called me.
Next
I returned 2 computers which did not meet the quote specifications that we had agreed upon. They took them back with only minor difficulties. The diffculties didn't start till after they got the equipment back. I got no less than 6 phone calls telling me they were crediting the companies account. The last time, just before I picked up the phone I told myself I was going to reach through the phone lines and strangle the bastard on the other end if it was Dell again.
The next week the accountant comes to my office wanting to know where the packing slip was for the 2 computers that were ordered. I told them that the computers were sent back and he showed me the invoice. Within 4 hours of the equipment arriving I told Dell we were shipping them back and had a confirmation number, yet they never conferred this to their billing department, apparently even after the equipment had arrived back at Dell ( the date of arrival back at Dell was 6 days before billing).
He who said 1,000,000 monkeys on 1,000,000 typewriters would eventually type the great novel, never saw an AOL chat room
A year ago they were deleting posts (I know, one of them was mine) calling for AMD processors. Now it's Linux. Dell just wants to make the friendly appearance of listening to their customers, but they don't really care -- or at least think they know better than the rest of us what we want.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
And we see that once that they have the mindshare or market share, They are starting to be concerned with piracy.
It is interesting how this link of before and after occurs. Of course they did have a reletivly good product for the time period they alowed this priacy to happen. This is probably a reason why it was happening. But being good enough to justify the costs to consumers was a different point all together. Now that they have the market share, they don't need to worry about justifying the cost it as much.
http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/64277
Did Dell put the post back or did the accuser take Slashdot for a ride to get free publicity for his website?
linux is STILL for fags.
Now of course if tech.blorge paid Dell enough money, then I am sure Dell would have left the comment alone.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Dell has responded to accusations of censorship. Apparently the idea wasn't deleted, it was simply "merged", which means it's all OK (NOT!).
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Sometimes is just plain embarassing to be a Linux user. Whine, whine, whine...
So, the HP laptops that come with FreeDOS don't count?
No, they don't, obviously.
HP has toyed with Linux on laptops a few times. Back in 2003, they even supported Red Flag Linux for a while. But no longer.
Besides, an HP laptop with FreeDOS costs more than a standard system with Windows XP. The HP Compaq nx6325 as a standard package costs $679, but if you go through the configurator and select FreeDOS, you can't get below $1000.
*sigh*
"We only ship to within the United States and Canada."
Where am I supposed to get cheap *nix laptops in Australia from then?
The darter looks cool.
This is not at all surprising. I happen to be quite certain (I won't name my sources, but I will say that I live in Austin, TX) that on their lower-end machines, Dell does not make any profit on the hardware. Not only that, they don't make any profit on Windows either. So how in the heck do they make money off those products? Well... You know all those annoying demo or introductory versions of software that come pre-installed on a Dell machine by default, like a virus checker with a free 90-day subscription and so forth? Dell doesn't put those on there because they want to save you the trouble of downloading the installer. They put them on there because the software companies pay them money to put them on there. And that's how they make a profit on their low-end machines.
So what do you think no OS means? It means no pre-installed software crap. And that means, for that unit, no money for Dell from the pre-installed software crap contract.
Also, one other possibly more legit reason: they have to burn in the machines after they assemble them. This means running software. It may be that the software they run to do the burn-in is based on Windows. Certainly the drivers are. Ergo, if you don't want Windows, they have to get the machine to a state where it boots windows and runs the burn-in software, then do the burn-in, then they have to do an extra step where they remove Windows. So it's actually more labor for them, probably, to not ship with Windows installed.
You can overclock a Fendt so it can drive 165 km / hr.
it's well within Dell's right to remove anything they don't like.
it's well within our rights to not trust Dell for exercising that right.
Contrary to what Slashdot has been reporting, it seems that the popularity of linux in general is actually decreasing and Vista is increasing. Google Trends: http://www.google.com/trends?q=linux%2C+vista&ctab =0&geo=all&date=all As a supporter of Dell adding Linux to their PCs, I find this to be somewhat alarming. Is there any particular reason why the search term 'linux' would be decreasing over the past couple years, despite increased news coverage and adoption worldwide by many companies and goverments? Perhaps I have overlooked something.