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IBM Doubles CPU Cooling With Simple Change

Ars Technica is reporting that IBM has discovered a new cooling breakthrough that, unlike several other recent announcements, should be relatively easy and cost-effective to implement. "IBM's find addresses how thermal paste is typically spread between the face of a chip and the heat spreader that sits directly over the core. Overclockers already know how crucial it is to apply thermal paste the right way: too much, and it causes heat buildup. Too little, and it causes heat buildup. It has to be "just right," which is why IBM looked to find the best way to get the gooey stuff where it needs to be and in the right amount, and to make it significantly more efficient in the process."

208 comments

  1. And people thought they were cool polishing...... by malfunct · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I find it kind of funny that after all these years of proper modders polishing the hell out of thier heatsink and spreader, along comes IBM and makes them rough and it cools better :)

    That said, its probably only better in the average case but less good than the ideal case due to the fact of having less contact in the microgroove areas.

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  2. Excellent by Kjella · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It doesn't help power consumption, but better cooling = less fans = less noise. I wish I had a server in the basement, that is if I had a basement (no, I'm not living in one).

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    1. Re:Excellent by unborracho · · Score: 4, Informative

      sure, it does. Less fans = less power consumption.

      --
      "You had this look that of an angel, it was such a bad disguise" --Dishwalla
    2. Re:Excellent by ajlitt · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it doesn't. However, lower temperatures should allow a CPU to run at the same speed at a lower voltage.

    3. Re:Excellent by Chacham · · Score: 4, Informative

      It doesn't help power consumption, but better cooling = less fans = less noise.

      Actually, it helps *very* much with power consumption. Usually, resistance goes up as the tempeature does. For example, this is what an incandescent bulb relies on. What this means, is that as the chip gets hotter, it will resist more, causing a need for higher output to get the same usuable energy. By cooling the chip, its resistance stays low, allowing a higher efficiency in power usuage. IOW, less heat, less energy required.

      Secondly, as another commentor pointed out, there's the fans that are use to cool it down, which indirectly allows for a lower power-consumption.

    4. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Silicon transistors go the other way -- resistance decreases as temperature goes up.

    5. Re:Excellent by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, it helps *very* much with power consumption. Usually, resistance goes up as the tempeature does. For example, this is what an incandescent bulb relies on.

      IIRC, semiconductors don't work that way; Their resistance tends to decrease with increasing temperature.

    6. Re:Excellent by Marillion · · Score: 1

      Except that as resistance goes up, wattage goes down. the light bulb achieves a point of equalibrium. The filament heats up, the resistance increases. If the filament slightly overheats, the drop in power causes the filament to cool off slightly and lowers the resistance and draws more current which will then heat it up to compensate. A lightbulb is continously and chaotically but imperceptably changing intensity.

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    7. Re:Excellent by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Uh? Because 1-2W/80mm fan mean so much when you got a 50W+ CPU and a 50W+ GPU in your system...

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    8. Re:Excellent by gweihir · · Score: 0, Redundant

      sure, it does. Less fans = less power consumption.

      This effect is not of any significance....

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    9. Re:Excellent by Simon+(S2) · · Score: 1

      Uh? Because 1-2W/80mm fan mean so much when you got a 50W+ CPU and a 50W+ GPU in your system...

      That's 2%. Not much, but still...
      --
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    10. Re:Excellent by unborracho · · Score: 1

      Think larger scale where there are server farms which require a ton of cooling - a 2% reduction could potentially be a huge cost savings.

      Sure, you're not going to notice it on your electric bill at home...

      --
      "You had this look that of an angel, it was such a bad disguise" --Dishwalla
    11. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Multiply that by a few [hundred] million computers and suddenly you're saving a few [hundred] MW. See also: this post.

      I'll never understand why people are so quick to dismiss seemingly trivial power savings. What's trivial on the single-person level is not-so-trivial on a global level.

    12. Re:Excellent by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1
      Power = (V^2)/R
      so correct incandescent bulb, gets hot, resistance goes up, less power consumed (at constant voltage).

      is that as the chip gets hotter, it will resist more, causing a need for higher output

          ok, you got lucky ;) since semiconductors act the opposite of purly resisitive your correct. hotter they get the more they conduct (lower resistance), and the hotter they get... until chip protection kicks in and lower the clock rate, or whatever.

    13. Re:Excellent by Chacham · · Score: 1

      Their resistance tends to decrease with increasing temperature.

      That would be a property of the element used, not of the object formed.

      There are some metals that have a positive temperature coefficient.

    14. Re:Excellent by fishbowl · · Score: 1


      >Think larger scale where there are server farms which require a ton of cooling - a 2% reduction could potentially be a huge cost savings.

      My previous employer had a room with plenty of free space but a cooling capacity problem that forced them to leave much of the space unused. The equipment consisted pretty much entirely of E-class Sun servers, FWIW, and the room already had its own air conditioning.

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    15. Re:Excellent by AshtangiMan · · Score: 1

      less = less. whether or not is significant is insignificant :)

    16. Re:Excellent by acidrain69 · · Score: 1

      Server equipment (which IBM is primarily concerned with) has more fans, and they run at a higher velocity. The Dell server I primarily work on is a 2U rackmount machine. You can't fit a lot in 2U (at least not compared to some of our 4U and 5U servers) so Dell compensated by using high speed fans. They sound like a jet taking off when you start the system, but spin down to a lower rpm after a few seconds. I haven't loaded the machine that hard, but I would imagine they would compensate and speed back up if the CPU was really boiling away. The IBM server we use has a ton of fans as well. Heat removal is a serious problem in the data center, so your 100W worth of CPU + GPU power becomes serious when you are talking about a 42U rack filled with 1U servers, each with 5 fans inside. If you had about 5 fans in a 1U machine (say, 2 cores, 1 fan each, plus a PSU fan plus one for the drive bays and one for the rear of the case), you are looking at 200 fans in a floorspace of 20"x40" (or whatever the depth usually is). 5 fans might be little high for a 1U system, but you get my point.

      Anything they can do to improve efficiency means some of those fans become redundant, which is good for keeping servers cool and operating in a dense environment.

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    17. Re:Excellent by WhiplashII · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid you are incorrect. Transistors become more conductive as they get hotter - the failure mode of a hot transistor is to become essentially a short.

      This is true of most semiconductor based devices.

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    18. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While it use true that the hotter a semiconductor becomes, the more it conducts. In regular old BJTs this creates thermal runaway. The base conducts more, causing the collector to emitter current to increase, causing more heat, causing more conduction, causing the base to conduct more, etc.. But FETs are normally *on* when not powered, the opposite of regular BJTs. More heat will cause the gate of the FET to shut the source to drain current off more. FETs are what today's CPUs use in their design and do not suffer from thermal runaway.

    19. Re:Excellent by NoMaster · · Score: 1

      ... the failure mode of a hot transistor is to become essentially a short.
      Briefly. Then it goes open as the junction vaporises.

      If the junction is on a nice big heatsink, as is the case with power transistors, then the bonding wires go first.

      Ever wonder what the "magic smoke" is really made of?

      --
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    20. Re:Excellent by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Because sometimes the time spent saving that little could otherwise have been spent saving a fraction off real energy killers such as heat loss from homes, unnecessarily inefficient processors (Pentium M etc. is good), and incandescent light bulbs (CFL's are better), which in the end, saves a lot more energy.

      --
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  3. Good, it was the worse part! by moore.dustin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Everything about putting together a new computer, or installing a new chip set is pretty straight-forward, except for the thermal paste. While nothing is to complicated, it is the only factor that is not clearly right or wrong depending on how you do it. Couple that with it being the hardest thing to reach in/on the computer, I am glad to see some changes are being made. It would be nice to simplify the process down to be just as easy as setting the fan on top of it.

    1. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be nice to simplify the process down to be just as easy as setting the fan on top of it.

      IIRC, retail (not OEM!) AMD chips have (or had, a couple of years ago when I last built a system) a "thermal pad" on the included heatsink. It's a one-time-use deal, and it's a PITA to clean it off if you want to re-use the parts elsewhere, but it's about as close to what you're asking for as is possible.

    2. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by Das+Modell · · Score: 1

      It would be nice to simplify the process down to be just as easy as setting the fan on top of it.

      Hell yes. Installing the heatsink is, at least for me, pretty complicated. I think I once broke a CPU when I did it. Applying thermal paste is equally hard. These days I just let the shop handle all things related to the CPU.
    3. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I just want a CPU with an integrated water block. It will require quite a bit of care to make sure that you don't gum it up, but it would solve all these heat transfer problems once and for all. Plus, if I can get water cooling everywhere, then I can eliminate all but one fan (which can be large but slow and thus quiet) and one pump, which will be immersed in the reservoir and thus quiet. I actually have a water block and a pump and just scored a tiny oil cooler to use as a reservoir, but my next system will probably be dual-dualcore so my one corny water block that I made in machining class will probably go unused. It was still a fun exercise.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Informative

      I did that once, and had problems, and then opened the machine up to find that they'd just squeezed a dime-sized glob of paste on the cpu, and then mashed the heat sink down on top of it...There was a visible gap between the CPU and the heatsink.

      I "noticed" it almost immediately because of the massive increase in fan noise...the fan was supposed to be replaced with an identical fan, so I thought they'd just screwed me, but the fan was correct, so I checked the cpu, and voila, craptacularity.

      The easiest way to apply thermal paste is to seat the processor, and then dump a glob of paste on it, and spread it as thin as you possibly can with a credit card or some other plastic scraping tool...Don't be afraid to scrape off the excess! That's what you're supposed to be doing! Then mash the heat sink down on it, and see if any squeezes out the sides...If it does, you've got too much. Scrape some more off. You should definitely be able to see the top of the CPU through the paste.

      Easy as pie. The only time I ever saw anyone have problems was with one of those old Socket A AMD processors, where you had to have a fricking screwdriver to force the metal clamps on the heatsink into place...Lot of people put holes in their motherboards while installing one of those chips.

      --
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    5. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

      IIRC, retail (not OEM!) AMD chips have (or had, a couple of years ago when I last built a system) a "thermal pad" on the included heat-sink As of last fall, they still do. And it is a RPITA to clean it off. I had to because a certain electronics retailer, named after a much better grocery chain, sold me a "new" processor with the thermal pad already melted, and I didn't feel comfortable re-using it.
    6. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by nuzak · · Score: 1

      > It would be nice to simplify the process down to be just as easy as setting the fan on top of it.

      I have no problems with the paste, but "setting the fan on top of it" has tended to be a nightmare of little clips and screws and adaptor thingamajiggies for various socket designs, and when I'm done, half those little parts are still in the box, and I wonder if I forgot one or more of them.

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    7. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Condensation, corrosion, biological growth, leaks, pumps, heat exchangers - all these things make it a bit more complicated and a bit more expensive.

    8. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Condensation, corrosion, biological growth, leaks, pumps, heat exchangers - all these things make it a bit more complicated and a bit more expensive.

      Leaks and condensation are real problems. Corrosion and biological growth are easily solvable problems; hell, rubbing alcohol (often available at the dollar store) is an acceptable additive. Personally I plan to just use something meant for automotive use. Mineral deposits can be a problem as well except that I have a reverse osmosis water filter. So all I have to do is change the coolant every few years and I should be just fine.

      Heat exchangers are not themselves complicated, although they can have leaks. But so long as you take care of your coolant this is a non-issue.

      If I were designing a CPU water block product I'd take the approach that many vendors have taken and I'd make it a two-piece part. It's much easier from a manufacturing standpoint and it allows for disassembly for cleaning. You add a silicone seal (which can be replaced with silicone goo if the part becomes unavailable, I'd use aquarium silicone because it cures quickly and completely) and screw it together. The block will probably be aluminum, and the threads tapped into it. If they fail, you can use thread repair material on them, because the block is made of metal. The cover would be clear plastic so you can see WTF is going on, if it's getting crusty, et cetera.

      Water cooling systems ARE more complicated and expensive than just using some fans, but they have numerous advantages as well. My next desktop PC will be water cooled.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by rynoski · · Score: 1

      A bit of acetone and a fingernail do a pretty good job of getting rid of the pad.
      I get a little worried that i may scratch the heatsink so it wont be perfectly flat, but then i look at the rough base of most heatsinks and realise it doesn't matter. If I had a mirror polish on the base of a heatsink I would be taking much more care.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: 1) those that can extrapolate from incomplete data.
    10. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Corrosion and biological growth are easily solvable problems

      True - you can solve just about any corrosion problem by using gold. Less ideal solutions take more work but less money and require attention or maybe only a trip to a boat supply shop every two decades for a chunk of zinc or magnesium. It's not hard, especially since things never get really hot and it isn't big - but not entirely trivial. Taking bits out of old cars works well for some people.

      Condensation is the major reason I don't use it due to the hot and humid local climate.

    11. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I solve this by occasionally peeing on my computer. Just remember to use the Febreeze.

    12. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      But TFA said that this was a technique applied between the die and the heatspreader, a place you'll rarely touch if you use a cpu with a heatspreader.
      I'd be a bit wary of forcing away the heatspreder, not to mention that the cpu then would be too low for the heatsink to make proper contact.
      I don't think that this can be functionally applied to a user-mounted heatsink.
      As I understood the article, it relies on the micrometer trenches to be exactly aligned with the centre of the die, in order to avoid the X-like clumping behaviour of the particles in the thermal-paste.
      This kind of precise positioning is unlikely to be achived when manually mounting a heatsink.

      Thinking about it, maybe they could have a pattern like this on the topside of the heatspreader too and you could just polish the heatsink instead...

      --
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    13. Re:Good, it was the worse part! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You don't really end up with a corrosion problem so long as you keep the fluid in your cooling system properly conditioned. I don't know if it would produce the same voltage in a computer but your cooling system (including engine, water pump etc) becomes a battery in your car when your coolant goes bad. At 0.1 volts it's time to start thinking about replacing your coolant. At 0.15 volts it's bad and needs to be replaced yesterday. At 0.2 volts you've already been doing substantial damage and you'd better damned well change it. But in a computer, which runs much much cooler than a gasoline engine, you can probably just replace the fluid every year or two and have no problems.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. user a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a cheap way to simulate IBM's invention, just scratch the surface with a razor.. make a bunch of diagonal cuts across each other.. smooth it out a little bit with a brillo pad and you're ready to rock & roll. Worth a try, with amd X2's at $75, why the hell not.

    1. Re:user a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      What kind of pussy are you?

      Real men don't use razors, real men use chainsaws.

  5. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by planckscale · · Score: 2, Informative
    I've read it's best not to polish but to use a very fine grain sandpaper to rough the surface up just right. And don't tell me I don't know how much paste to apply. I'm a proper paste amount applier thank you very much.

    --
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  6. Nothing new here by BadERA · · Score: 1

    This is the same "breakthrough" they came out with five months ago, only applying the same technique to the two facing surfaces rather than just the one.

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  7. Re:So... what did they do? by malfunct · · Score: 3, Informative

    They etched a series of microgrooves on the surface of the headsink to act as a channel for excess thermal paste. This is supposed to make much better contact than a smooth surface.

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  8. Artic Silver provides great instructions... by madhatter256 · · Score: 5, Informative

    When i ordered my Artic Silver compound, the website had some instructions on how to apply the paste depending on what type of CPU you own. These instructions can be applied to any kind of thermal paste.

    here's a link.

    http://www.arcticsilver.com/instructions.htm

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    1. Re:Artic Silver provides great instructions... by Workaphobia · · Score: 1

      From someone who is not a coolant expert but likes to think of himself as not being an idiot:

      The last time I had to install a CPU/heatsink, I found those instructions pretty ambiguous. It didn't help that they seemed to conflict with the CPU installation instructions. I ended up with a dead CPU and no idea if it was a result of the coolant touching the contacts, something screwy with the ethol alcohol, or some static mishandling on my part. In the end I exchanged for another CPU and left it alone with the stock wax pad.

      --
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    2. Re:Artic Silver provides great instructions... by moonbender · · Score: 1

      Hey thanks, I didn't expect much, but that really was quite detailed and interesting. Will remember it the next time I apply the stuff.

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    3. Re:Artic Silver provides great instructions... by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 1

      I just finished installing a passive heatsink... and apparently I used about 10 - 15 times as much paste as I would have needed. Thanks for the link!

      --
      All rites reversed 2010
  9. Sadly by Khyber · · Score: 4, Interesting

    this isn't taught where I work, and as a result oftentimes we get the units we fixed sent right back for overheating and shutting down. Pop off the heatpipe and fan assemly on the laptop mtherboard, and whoa-nelly! The ENTIRE SURFACE OF THE PROCESSOR'S COATED with thermal paste.

    Each tube of thermal paste we get contains about 4CCs worth of thermal paste - MORE than enough to handle about seven or so CPUs. Instead, the entire tube gets shot onto the proc, because the syring is labeled "Single use only" (Yea, that's what I thought.)

    Roughing the surface of the core casing seems like a good idea, but I dunno, most thermal compounds are rather gritty as is and wont' fit into those uber-tiny grooves. A more liquid thermal ahesive would see to be a better idea if you're going to mar the surface of the core's protective casing, I would think.

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    1. Re:Sadly by dami99 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, most people put on way too much. You don't need a lot. The article is actually referring to the paste between the IHS and the chip though, not the IHS and the HSF.

    2. Re:Sadly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You work for Apple?

    3. Re:Sadly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if your thermal compound is gritty then it is complete crap.

      Get them to switch to a decent milspec compound and call it done. better performance thanthe overhyped silver crap and $30.00 will fill about 9000 of those 4cc syrenges of the good smooth stuff that does NOT screw up like that.

      Your place is using utter crap paste. please let me know what product line so I can avoid it.

    4. Re:Sadly by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Why are you using paste at all? I was under the impression that the principle advantage of paste is that it's easily applied, but that pads are much better for long-term installation. I was under that impression because of the instructions provided my AMD processor when I built my PC.

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    5. Re:Sadly by stmfreak · · Score: 2, Informative

      This isn't taught anywhere.

      At the systems company I worked for, we were told to use the entire tube as well. Granted, it wasn't 4ccs, but it was still too much. Our CPUs would typically have 1mm of paste between them and the heat spreader--easily seen when you took them apart later.

      Back when I was overclocking my white-box PCs, I read that paste is only supposed to fill the grooves between heat sink and chip die. Ideally, you want metal to die contact, but since these surfaces are typically non-uniform, direct contact is very inefficient with only a few high-points touching. Therefore, thermal paste was developed that allowed the gaps to conduct a bit better than air. However, apply too much and you eliminate the possible metal to die contact and thus cause over heating.

      I also read about "lapping" and actually did an experiment with one of my dual proc PCs. I sanded my Celeron die and heat sink flat with 400 grit sandpaper and then put them together with the smallest dab of paste. Separating the two revealed that nearly all of that paste was pushed out of the contact region leaving a very thin, nearly non-existent film of paste. Back in my system, this CPU was immediately 5C cooler than its twin, under any load.

      Metal to die beats paste any day. These companies could do a lot better with focus on making flat surfaces, less viscous paste and a little education.

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    6. Re:Sadly by rynoski · · Score: 1

      The pads are too think, and require being melted. This means paste is a better conductor of heat - if you do it properly. That is a big if, and I guiess the reason why AMD ships with pads.

      --
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    7. Re:Sadly by Khyber · · Score: 1

      I agree but disagree on one point, mainly the going metal-to-die route. Metal makes a nice conductor of heat, but there are many far more viscuous, non-conductive, and heat-conductive materials that could be used to make a hybrid of paste/metal plate. There's this weird thin white thermal compound we use at work for some boards (others, mainly the commercial units, use the grey gritty thermal paste) and one day I decided to see ust what would happen if I used some of the white compound as a go-between between the heatpipie and the die. Well, needless to say, it's now our standard practice. The results were immediately noticable, and very favorable. As an end result, we're doing hybrid cooling (if it can be called that) using the thermal compound on the die directly, then applying the heatpipe plate directly to the die and securing it. We will not use the grey compound any longer (except for the commercial units, which we're required to do, and then I push the applicator tip right flush against the die surface and spread a THIN layer. Oh, as a side note, if my current record keeps up, I'll be teaching laptop repair more often, and I *WILL* be teaching proper thermal compound application. I've watched some of the training classes, and they're SEVERELY lacking.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    8. Re:Sadly by Khyber · · Score: 1

      we use SEVERAL types of paste, and only certain models use the gritty thermal compound. BTW, it's gritty because you can't liquefy this compound, and it conducts heat about as equal as Artic silver (In Fact it's made by Thermaltake so that'd explain that) And we trust Thermaltake for our commercial units. As a side note - as a default, Sony, HP, Dell, and IBM all use the gritty compound by default as it's shipped with the replacement systemboards BY THE MANUFACTURERS THEMSELVES. If they knew of a better solution (HP finally figured it out and switched to a more liquid compound,) they'd use it. But, hey, Thermaltake is a big name, and trustworthy. Sounds like you're just griping because you get cooler temps than the rest of us. Guess what? STILL WITHIN NOMINAL OPERATIONAL LIMITS. Usually the problem is bad board manufacturing (and usually that's caused by bad ICs and Capacitors) Of course, you're posting as AC because you don't wanna get slammed. Too bad. Do this shit for a living 14 hours a day, while trying to teach people how to repair about 20+ different models of laptops at nearly the same time, on both consumer and commercial side. Yea, that's what I thought. Not onyl do I have to satisfy customers, but I have to train HUNDREDS of people. Something tells me you don't have the aptidute nor attitude to do such.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  10. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by feceus · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you'd ever taken the time to actually try lapping the heatsink and heat spreaders rather than making fun, you would notice a significant drop in temperatures.

    Even today with the new Core 2 Duo CPUs, the IHS have been found to be concave. Personally having lapped my CPU, the load temperatures dropped 10 C - nothing to sneeze at.

    This article is more about the refinement of a technique. Notice how the article states "micrometer-length trenches", and not surfaces filled with ridges you can feel by running along it with your finger nail.

    Most overclockers know that you get diminishing returns the further you polish the surfaces anyway.

  11. Stirling Engines by rrhal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When will someone get a clue and power CPU fans with Stirling Engines?

    --
    All generalizations are false, including this one. Mark Twain
    1. Re:Stirling Engines by njchick · · Score: 2

      It was tried before and didn't work.

    2. Re:Stirling Engines by xehonk · · Score: 1

      He said the cpu fan, no the cpu. And the cpu surely pumps out enough heat to power something like a fan. Though this is unrelated to the article, which is about getting the heat away from the cpu in the first place, not using it afterwards.

    3. Re:Stirling Engines by xutopia · · Score: 1

      Stirling engines aren't good enough... otherwise we'd use them everywhere there is heat.

    4. Re:Stirling Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A perpetual motion machine has nothing to do with powering a cpu fan. We aren't talking a closed system which cycles back on tiself, as a CPU/fan combo is obviously open, with the CPU drawing significant power.

      The only question is whether a fan can be powered by the heat given off the cpu compared to the temperature differential of the rest of the environment (aka the cold side of the stirling engine). And that would vary depending on the cpu but I think yes on most modern cpus; after all, we have passively cooled cpus available now (heatsink only, no fan) and heat pipe systems.

      A stirling engine would work. Problem is cost. A heat sink usually is extruded, and cheap. Adding a mini engine to your setup would probably include retooling your setup--case design, cold side of the pump, arrangement of where your cpu is, all in addition to the design of the stirling engine itself (simple, but unique per setup since there are so many cpu/case/fan combos out there).

      Then again, all in all, I see the cooling of cpus as a boring topic. Nothiing a large surfaces, liquid cooling, and peltiers can't handle, something being done for years now. Cooling *efficiently* is another matter entirely, and a stirling engine would help, but if we had cpus that were pumping out that much heat, it'd be easier to couple the output to the incoming cold lines of our hot water heaters. Fact is, given the growth of the laptop market, the cpu will just be better designed to be more energy efficient than mucking around with reinventing the traditional fan/heatsink parts.

    5. Re:Stirling Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too complex? Why don't all cars have turbos?

    6. Re:Stirling Engines by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A better question is "why aren't all cars offered with a turbo"? The answer is that gas doesn't cost enough here yet. In other parts of the world, supercharging is far more ubiquitous. But we Americans are least concerned with efficiency. As our dollar tanks, I assure you, we will become more concerned.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Stirling Engines by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      The minute they get the idea to make heatsinks out of Sterling Silver.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    8. Re:Stirling Engines by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Computer users aren't as bad as audiophools.

      Yet.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    9. Re:Stirling Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carnot efficiency strikes again!

    10. Re:Stirling Engines by skintigh2 · · Score: 1

      I'm going to guess the root reason is cost, but you also have to take into account the long starting time (doesn't cool until it's already too late?) and as an electrical engineer it scares me to think that the survival of my component is in the hands of a mechanical engineer's complex design with lots of moving parts that could fail without warning. I try to buy motherboards that don't have any fans, just heatsinks on the chipset, and if I could I would eliminate all fans.

    11. Re:Stirling Engines by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      Good point. The temperature differential between a chip and ambient air just isn't very great, maybe 300K vs 330K? On the one hand, you don't need a whole lot of power to run a CPU fan (maybe 1 or 2 watts) but on the other hand, hey, it's only 1 or 2 watts and you already have that nice 300W power supply handy. Even if the stirling-powered cooling system could be manufactured cheaply enough, the cost of integration would probably be too high. It's not something you can just slap on top of the chip (and easily replace later) like an electric fan.

    12. Re:Stirling Engines by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I know this was tongue-in-cheek, but the reason it won't work is that the fan robs the stirling engine of its power source. This is a real problem in an environment where the delta-T is already pretty small. I doubt the final equilibrium temperature would be better than passive cooling, which basically does the same thing: convention is a heat engine that "generates" wind.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    13. Re:Stirling Engines by syukton · · Score: 1
      --
      Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
    14. Re:Stirling Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't we all just pull ourselves off the ground using our bootstraps too, it comes to the same thing.

      To put it in another way, the river is flooding...so to get rid of the flood, we put a dam across the river, and use the power to pump away the floodwaters. Can you see what is wrong with this idea?

    15. Re:Stirling Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you haven't actually read the laws of thermodynamics before. A Sterling engine has an external energy source, the heat, and is going with the flow of entropy, bringing heat to where there is cool. Sterling engines exist and work.

      The real problem is that a heat engine needs to "warm up" and by that time, a system entirely dependent on a heat engine for cooling could easily overheat. So then you need an auxiliary system, so why not just use the auxiliary system, and make it all cheaper and simpler.

    16. Re:Stirling Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Over 50% of new cars sold in Europe are diesels, and I don't know of a modern diesel without a turbo.

    17. Re:Stirling Engines by rrhal · · Score: 1

      A rotary Stirling engine has three moving parts. It could be built into the heatsink where the fan motor now lives. The fan would cool the cool side of the engine the warm side would, of course be heated by the CPU. A 20 degree temp differential is plenty to drive a Stirling engine.

      --
      All generalizations are false, including this one. Mark Twain
  12. Too hot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, tell me something new. We all know already the problems with the gooey stuff when it gets too hot.

  13. Gooey stuff by Experiment+626 · · Score: 4, Funny

    IBM looked to find the best way to get the gooey stuff where it needs to be and in the right amount

    I know some sites with plenty of AVIs that will show you how to do that...

    1. Re:Gooey stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Artic Silver Bukkake?

    2. Re:Gooey stuff by Glowing+Fish · · Score: 1

      Its actually pretty easy, such technology for spreading of gooey stuff already is quite sophisticated when it comes to keyboards. We just have to apply it other places.

      --
      Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
    3. Re:Gooey stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tomshardware?

    4. Re:Gooey stuff by Basehart · · Score: 1

      I've actually used the old "it's not what it looks like...I was actually just reseating the heatsink" excuse a couple of times when my wife has walked in on me, and although I was sat over three feet away from a sealed and functioning computer on both occasions didn't seem to register with her.

      I've since picked up an old PC from the local thrift store and have it dissasembled under my desk at all times, just in case she sees through my clever excuse in future.

    5. Re:Gooey stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need a movie to teach you how to do it. It's quite simple actually, according to Arctic Silver. You just need to squeeze a little in the center. DO NOT SPREAD. Just mount right on top and twist a little bit. The pressure will help it spread nicely.

    6. Re:Gooey stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, did anyone need to know that?

  14. Previously announced in October by writertype · · Score: 4, Informative
    Extreme Tech had this last year. With even more pictures! :)

    Story is here.

    1. Re:Previously announced in October by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'arstechnica ambulance chasers' are a day late and a dollar short, like usual, per your link, writertype (good catch by the way):

      http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2040734 ,00.asp

      Arstechnica news style = just spit back what others put out, mere 2nd hand day old bread, practically posting their copy online, plagiarized, or variations of the original idea and theme to cover their asses generally. As usual, they are not very original or creative. What does one want from a pack of nitwits like the arstechnica forums board has? The only person with any real smarts and accomplishments in this field that are even somewhat known from their forums members is a guy named J. E. Hanrihan, a noted driver developer! Mind you, he does not hang out there much to begin with or even at all for years now. He's too far above their mindless drivel of most of their forums membership. As far as the rest? Nobodies and nothings in this field or life, as to a good 90% of them. The worst of their lot is that stooge Jeremy Reimer, who has no professional experience in the computer science field, nor even a degree or certification in it, for example. Jeremy Reimer, who made an utter fool out of himself at Windows it pro magazine forums with his friend Jay Little. Both of them had to leave out of shame. Just an indicator of the character of the type that flocks to arstechnica - the greatest pack of underachievers there is online imho and those of others who call them this and are utterly correct.

  15. cores aren't exposed anymore by Imazalil · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I could be wrong, but I believe that the polishing was done back in the day when the core was exposed (back in the Athlon days) so that the heatsink would make the best contact it could with the core. The core was such a small dense area that the best contact possible was needed. Now that everyone has a spreader on their core(s) the spreader itself does most of the immediate heat relieving and the contact between the spreader and cooler is much larger. With the larger area of contact using the super polished method it is much harder to get an even 'sandwich' across the entire area of the spreader, thus the move to the rougher finish.

    1. Re:cores aren't exposed anymore by theantipop · · Score: 1

      Most serious overclockers remove modern heatspreaders and carry on as they always had.

  16. Re:So... what did they do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nowadays, this counts as a patentable innovation.

  17. Thermal Paste Patch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For the last computer I built, the AMD CPU came with a little patch of thermal paste rather than a tube. I just put it on like a sticker and bolted down the heatsink. No muss, no fuss. Many friends told me to turn in my propeller beanie for not using silver paste, but it overclocked just fine (only 10%--I was scared to go higher)and stayed cool enough.

    It seems to me that if you come up with some "magic cross" defying pattern, you could sell it in little pre-spread patches. In fact, I'm sure the same companies who make shitty paste that turn out to have no silver in them at all are already working on it, regardless of any IBM patents on the process. Oooo, I gotta go, I just had an idea: New, improved, thermally-quilted paste patches. I'll be rich.

  18. Did you read the article? by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And if you did, you will know that the thermal paste itself is very inefficient for its thermal properties compared to the metal surface of the heatsink. What IBM has found out is a way to cheaply and quickly put a heatsink on the CPU which uses less thermal paste (1/3 less), which results in a 50% increase in cooling capability of the heatsink. What they don't tell you is that the idea way is to spread the paste using a hard straight edge with a uniform height over the cpu itself and apply an extremely smooth heatsink to this. But, this process takes too long for it to be worth it in mass production. It typically takes me 2-3 minutes to spread the thermal compound and mount the heatsink on a chip. In a production line, it needs to take 5-20 seconds.

    All IBM has done is develop a better method compared to their previous less efficient method. It is still worse then someone taking the time to lap the heatsink level and smooth and properly spread the true correct amount of thermal compound on the CPU then IBM's new method. To give you an idea, IBM is still using around 10x more thermal compound then is used in hand built systems. As you saw, a 1/3 reduction resulted in 50% increase in performance. Imagine then what a 9/10 reduction would result... The compound itself has the highest/worst thermal co-efficient in the cooling system. It makes a lot of sense that getting less of it in there will increase the performance. The key to reducing this substance is having a heatsink that will fit perfectly flush with the CPU.

    --
    We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
    1. Re:Did you read the article? by maxume · · Score: 5, Informative

      An easy way to think about it is that the paste is better than an air gap, but worse than contact.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Did you read the article? by dreamlax · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It typically takes me 2-3 minutes to spread the thermal compound and mount the heatsink on a chip. In a production line, it needs to take 5-20 seconds.

      2 or 3 minutes? I work for Toshiba, and I fix laptops every day. It only takes me 5 seconds to apply thermal grease, if that. It is also compulsory for us to perform hardware stress testing if we change the motherboard, RAM, CPU or graphics card (if present). The report tells us how quickly the core heats up, to what temperature, how fast it cools once the CPU steps down to its slowest speed etc. Provided those figures are satisfactory, I don't have to reapply thermal grease.

      Please don't think I'm calling you incompetent or anything, taking your time on this sort of thing is ideal, you don't want to over- or under-do it. I'm just used to re-greasing CPUs every day.

      The way I was taught was (provided you're squeezing it out of a syringe or something) to make a Hershey (as in Hershey's Kiss). Put a Hershey of grease in the very centre of the core, and the flat surface of the heatsink will spread it across the entire core. It takes a while before you realise what is a good sized Hershey. Just about all of the time when I run the stress test on a good sized Hershey the report will return "optimal performance". I've been told by other laptop technicians that this technique is crap, but even after a year, the same grease will still return "optimal performance".

    3. Re:Did you read the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      5 secondes? That's probably why my Toshiba GPU was overheating ... only going on the web and scrolling was making the laptop to crash due to overheating lol

      Yeah it got repaired.... but probably by someone taking more then 5 seconds putting the heat sink on it :D

    4. Re:Did you read the article? by Chirs · · Score: 2, Informative

      High performance thermal pastes (Arctic Silver for instance) are too thick for that technique to work. You need to smear it evenly across the cpu before putting the heatsink on.

    5. Re:Did you read the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      A 1/3 reduction gives 50% so a 3/3 reduction should give 150%!!!!!one

    6. Re:Did you read the article? by Braxton_Bragg · · Score: 0

      Great !! No precision here. No engineers, either, evidently.

    7. Re:Did you read the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So basically you're comparing a job done with tender loving care which gives superior performance with your quick and dirty approach which gives results "within spec?" Nice.

      From now on I'm going to buy Kias instead of BMWs because they're both more than capable of driving our highways within the posted norms.

      I'll buy Zirconium when I ask my girl to marry me because it looks just as good as a diamond.

      No need to waste money on crystal. Glass looks great.

      Wood? Why? Plastic laminate over fiberboard is every bit as strong.

      And don't even get me started on all the chumps who spend big bucks on fancy graphics cards while I'm more than satisfied with Solitare for no extra cost whatsoever.

      Thanks for the help. I'm never gonna waste more than 5 seconds to apply a heat sink ever again. It's obvious to me that the faster, cheaper methods deliver just as high quality as the time consuming, expensive methods all those other chumps are using.

    8. Re:Did you read the article? by theantipop · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not true. Artic Silver changed their recommended instructions a couple years ago to the BB-sized dot in the middle of the core technique. This reduces the chance of air bubbles that can occur when you try to level the compound manually because the pressure of applying the heatsink will do a much better job.

    9. Re:Did you read the article? by adolf · · Score: 1

      if that's the case, then those high-performance compounds are really not very high-performing in that application, are they?

      One thing I've wondered about is this: So, you've spread what appears to be a thin, even layer of goop across the top side of your CPU. You then place the heatsink on top of it, clamp it with a couple of pounds of spring tension, and call it done.

      But it seems obvious, implicit even, that the goop layer cannot possibly be flat. And therefore there must be a possibility of air pockets being trapped wherever a valley is formed in this goop. Air pockets which cannot be removed with the slight 1 or 2 PSI of installed spring pressure.

      Since the whole fucking point was to eliminate air from the thermal interface, this seems to be the wrong way to go about it. The air must go either go somewhere else, or remain where it is -- it can't just disappear. And with inertia being how it is and all, and the relatively weak mechanical force involved, my money says it stays right where it is, insulating the CPU from its heatsink.

      So I've always used the "Hershey" method, as above. In addition to working quite expediently, it eliminates air, requires less material ("goop"), while also producing zero waste. Even with "high performance thermal pastes" like Arctic Silver, which seem to work just fine using this method with a very minute amount of goop.

      YMMV.

    10. Re:Did you read the article? by adolf · · Score: 1

      Just because it's more expensive, time-consuming, and error-prone, does not implicitly make it better.

      (And yes, I love my BMW. 77 degrees in Ohio today! Time to get the snow tires off of it, I guess!)

    11. Re:Did you read the article? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      thermal paste itself is very inefficient for its thermal properties

      Maybe YOUR thermal paste. My thermal paste is 1 part mercury, 1 part automatic leveler to prevent thermal runaway.. literally.

    12. Re:Did you read the article? by syukton · · Score: 1

      Arctic Silver 5 has a thermal resistance of less than 0.0045C-in2/Watt. I'm pretty sure that's better than copper. I could be wrong, though.

      --
      Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
    13. Re:Did you read the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      One thing the DIY Audio crowd has tried in connection with the reappearance of power JFETs (albeit in tiny packages with very little surface area to dissipate heat from, hence the relevance) is to use an indium based solder. These turn fluid at temperatures that the core should be able to withstand for a short amount of times. Hence, you put the heatsink on a stove, put a tiny bit of indium solder on it, and carefully heat it to the exactly right temperature and then apply the CPU. A solder interface is still worse than a single piece, but will be pretty nice, and indium actually wets the metal. Far better than a similar amount of grease.

    14. Re:Did you read the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I smear a dab on, wipe it off with the same finger and tap all over it - you can hardly tell there is anything there except fro the tiny craters that happen when the surfce is primed, your finger is primed and the action of pulling your finger away makes a uniform coating of spikes. They will spread when you install the heatsink like hundreds of hersheys kisses. You should be able to see the metal or silicon more than the paste, it should be nearly transparent (and the face of the heatsink needs to be razor scraped until the minute scratches from different directions begin to blend. I wipe my greasy finger over the heatsink too and try to wipe it all off knowing that it's impossible without detergent or at least a cloth to fill any scratches (of course there are none, unless you are a microscope or something).


      Only then is the heatsink ready to install and I still worry about the aluminum plane changing shape at operating temperature. I might even read this article.


      A few seconds? I'll bet you could have sex in a few seconds too if you wanted to - that doesn't make it cool.

    15. Re:Did you read the article? by springbox · · Score: 1

      Well that's really helpful. It always took me forever to spread the compound evenly on the heat spreader, and I could never get it very even..

    16. Re:Did you read the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      According to Wikipedia, thermal paste has a thermal conductivity more than 100 times worse than copper.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_condu ctivities

    17. Re:Did you read the article? by rynoski · · Score: 1

      Great explaination.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: 1) those that can extrapolate from incomplete data.
    18. Re:Did you read the article? by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you google for "0.0045C-in2/Watt." it becomes clear that the number they are giving is for a layer 0.001 inches thick. That's barely there.

      It also mentions that the stuff is 99.9% silver, which is dandy, but the difference between silver and copper is at the 'you aren't gonna notice' level:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_condu ctivities

      If your application is such that money doesn't matter, silver is the obvious choice, but that's about it. A solid lump of something will generally have a better conductance than a paste, since it is 'stuck together' more, equal depths of copper metal and paste on an ice cube would demonstrate this.

      A good application of a decent paste will outperform a bad application of a good paste, it just doesn't matter a huge amount.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    19. Re:Did you read the article? by mrcaseyj · · Score: 1

      I was thinking about a way to get an ultra thin layer of heat sink compound on a cpu. In machining sometimes they stack small steel blocks called guage blocks to the desired height. The blocks are provided in a set of various thicknesses and are machined to very precise thicknesses with a very smooth surface. If you just put the blocks on top of each other the dust and stuff ruins the precision and makes the thickness wrong. So they do what is called "wringing" the blocks together. They just put a little bit of the edge of one block on top of the other and then slide the two blocks together so that the surface contamination and excess oil is pushed off. The blocks end up so close together that some chemical phenomenon makes them able to resist large forces pulling them straight apart even though they can still be easily slid apart. Of course this would require extremely smooth cpus and heat sinks.

    20. Re:Did you read the article? by aXis100 · · Score: 1

      I agree 100%. A small blob in the middle of the chip should exclude the air as it spreads out.

    21. Re:Did you read the article? by sdack · · Score: 1

      There are many advantages and disadvantages. The problem with just a blob is that it may not be enough to cover the complete surface. I therefore disagree with the argument one could put too much paste onto a chip. The pressure of the mount will always squeeze a paste flat. Heat then will make a paste more liquid and it starts to spread out even more. Thus you can notice an improvement in cooling after several hours, even after days. You can help this by twisting a heat sink slowly left and right and for some time after you mounted it. The only danger then is that when you put on too much paste it can drop onto other components, possibly causing a short circuit. Best is to start with a small drop, mount the sink, twist it and take it of again to see how well it spread. If then the paste has spread over the sides but not the corners you are close to the optimum size for the blob.

    22. Re:Did you read the article? by ben+there... · · Score: 1

      Unless you're applying it to an Intel dual or quad core. Then it is a line across the cores, not a dot.

      But you're right, it is not spread across the whole heat spreader.

  19. the last time i did it by FudRucker · · Score: 0

    when i bought a new mobo to slide behind my AMD i bought some thermal paste from a local ma & pa computer store and the paste came in a hypodermic syringe (sans needle) and i asked them about it and they said just use it all, it seemed to be the right amount, my CPU runs about 110 Fahrenheit unless i am compiling software for a long time and then i seen it get as high as 125, then i open the cover to let the tower breathe better and it usually drops back down to around 115...

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:the last time i did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      First, you should have done some research. I don't care how much was in that syringe, it was probably too much -- you only need a small amount of thermal paste, just enough to fill the tiny gaps between a CPU and the heat sink.

      Second, removing the case's cover will completely disrupt the air flow inside. If that actually makes your CPU cooler, you have some serious problems with the way your fans are set up. If they're set up so that they're constantly pushing cold air over the CPU and hot air out of the case, it should, in fact, be cooler with the cover on.

    2. Re:the last time i did it by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Second, removing the case's cover will completely disrupt the air flow inside. If that actually makes your CPU cooler, you have some serious problems with the way your fans are set up. If they're set up so that they're constantly pushing cold air over the CPU and hot air out of the case, it should, in fact, be cooler with the cover on.

      Most cheap PC cases are designed utterly without thought to proper airflow.

      Also most times fans blow in from the front, across the drives, where the air is preheated.

      Most cheap PC cases will cool better when open, sad but true.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:the last time i did it by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Actually, pulling or pushing fresh air in across the drives is the right way to design a case. The hard drive is the only part that is likely to be permanently damaged by overheating. Thus, it really needs to have cool air being pulled across it from the outside. By necessity, everything else is secondary.

      I won't argue that PC cases are generally not designed with air flow in mind, though. Half the time, there's no air blowing across some significant portion of the case---RAM, PCI slots, etc. Then, people wonder why those computers crash constantly.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    4. Re:the last time i did it by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Err... across some significant portion of the system, I mean. I didn't mean to imply that RAM or PCI slots were part of the case. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:the last time i did it by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Actually, pulling or pushing fresh air in across the drives is the right way to design a case.

      Only if the next step is to exhaust it without blowing it across your CPU, which would like to have cooler air.

      Cases should have multiple paths for airflow.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:the last time i did it by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      You could do it that way, but only if you want to have a lot more fans, and thus, a lot more noise.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    7. Re:the last time i did it by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      You could do it that way, but only if you want to have a lot more fans, and thus, a lot more noise.

      No need for that, all you need is an air inlet on top of the cpu fan so that it can draw air from the outside. nMany cases have that nowadays anyway.

  20. So put a radiator between the CPU and the radiator by gelfling · · Score: 1

    If I get this right the secret is to insert the goo into a radiator shaped slot between the radiator and the top of the chip. Basically put more surface area between the goo and the radiator.

    Isn't there a solid material someone can invent to transfer the heat from the chip to the radiator? Like a thin gold foil material that conducts the heat from the top of the CPU to the bottom of the aluminum heat sink? Maybe we start to need to make heatsinks out of something better than the cheapest shlock we have on hand? Maybe we need to cast heatpipes right into the top of the chip?

  21. Someone explain. This sounds silly. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This technique is simply increasing the surface area interface between the paste and the heat sink, with a side effect: poor paste application will result in a much smaller interface. Sounds bad.

    Although this might be superior in someone's theory (and please explain what theory), I have doubts that it'll be effective in practice: the overall thermal interface will be identical in size, and the thermal mass will be more or less the same.

  22. Applicator by RiotXIX · · Score: 1

    That's great. Where can I buy such an applicator to put on the thermal paste like this?

    --
    "You know you don't act like a scientist, you're more like a game show host." Dana Barret
    1. Re:Applicator by un1xl0ser · · Score: 1

      The point is that the processor CAP is grooved to allow you to spread it normally. Little to no change in how you apply.

      --
      v4sw6PU$hw6ln6pr4F$ck 4/6$ma3+6u7LNS$w2m4l7U$i2e4+7en6a2X h
  23. this seems like a good idea..but. by atarione · · Score: 1, Redundant

    for something like a CPU which (if you are a big enough nerd) gets taken out swapped..etc occasionally.. how much harder would it be to get the old paste off... in order to have fresh new (effective) paste on when reinstalling the CPU???

    for the record after years of overclockers lapping their cpu's to a mirror surface i am amused that IBM now says the rough surface is more effective =p

    --
    actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
    1. Re:this seems like a good idea..but. by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

      I think, and I could be completely wrong here, but the theory seems sound, that IBM's method is more efficient in the mass market arena, for the people that don't lap their heatsinks to a mirror shine. It's better to be slightly notched than a non-lapped heatsink, but lapped still beats out this style.

      In other words, this is for OEM systems, like Dell, or lazy system builders, like me. Lapping would still be the preferred for the hard core clockers who can easily apply that microlayer of paste.

    2. Re:this seems like a good idea..but. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I think it would depend on the size of the silver grains. Mirror finish is relative though - if you have 15 micron scratches you need a microscope to see that it is rough.

    3. Re:this seems like a good idea..but. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lapping is to take out curvature of the surface, not to make it uber-smooth.

  24. Re:So put a radiator between the CPU and the radia by RingDev · · Score: 1

    Actually copper is an extremely efficient heat conduit. The reason why you use a paste instead of a solid is that even a polished surface will have irregularities in it. The paste will have a significantly larger amount of surface contact than any solid layer.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  25. obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IBM: My cooling powers have doubled since the last time we met.
    AMD/Intel: Good. Twice the pride, double the heat.

  26. Re:So... what did they do? by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

    I'd agree with that in this case. They took existing product and made an improvement to it. How long do you think it took them to determine that cross-hatched X pattern was ideal?

    It's also relatively novel, compared to the general trend of having the smoothest surface possible. I'd get one of these, mostly because I'm too lazy and inexperienced with the full on lapping and polishing method.

  27. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by thrawn_aj · · Score: 4, Informative

    along comes IBM and makes them rough and it cools better :) Hmm, I am not a modder, but I am a lab rat and roughening is a common technique used to increase the effective available surface area that is in contact with the heat-sink compound. This is not limited to CPU cooling and it's a little strange that it's taken so long to implement. Chemists play the same trick when they want to increase the rate of a reaction, powder up your reagents, or your catalysts. Of course, this will work only up to the point where the heat-sink particles (micron sized here I'd guess) can SEE the extra surface area. Hence, there exists a limit to how rough or how fine you want the surface beyond which range the cooling gets less efficient. A fine grit sandpaper (as a responder suggests in this thread) should be the way to go.
  28. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by sdack · · Score: 2, Informative

    It is less funny when you realize that the roughness stands in a direct relationship to the size of the metal bits in the paste. If all you can get between the valleys of a roughened copper heat sink is the binding mass instead of the silver particles because their too large then you will have a rather bad heat conduction. If you however get the surface rough and the silver particles are as small as nano particles, then you might get what IBM has achieved: much more surface and lots of contact.

  29. Did anyone find the last line odd? by HungSoLow · · Score: 1

    "IBM looked to find the best way to get the gooey stuff where it needs to be and in the right amount, and to make it significantly more efficient in the process"

    IBM certainly is branching out!

  30. Re:So... what did they do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ...which is the exact same reason a mason uses a notched trowel to spread thinset when laying ceramic tile.

  31. I don't think I'm reading this the same way... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think this is referring to the system builder applying the big copper bahemoths we put on top of our CPU, but actually the way the manufacturer puts the big silver heat spreader on top of the little black core (from the first sentance in the abstract).

    1. Re:I don't think I'm reading this the same way... by sdack · · Score: 1

      You might have a point there ...

    2. Re:I don't think I'm reading this the same way... by owlstead · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mod parent up. If I look at the picture, where it says "chip-cap" and the paste is between the chip and the cap, then this is definitely a different area than between the chip cap and the heat spreader. Actually, the front page story reads "Overclockers already know how crucial it is to apply thermal paste the right way: too much, and it causes heat buildup." Of course, before that, a really good reader had already read "between the face of a chip and the heat spreader that sits directly over the core." But since this is Slashdot, most comments seem to be off the mark.

  32. How Come? by eriks · · Score: 1

    How come nobody makes a CPU with the heat spreader and the main Heat sink as one solid piece? Then you'd only have one junction that needs goo, between the die and the heat spreader, right? Or am I oversimplifying the problem?

    1. Re:How Come? by Bearhouse · · Score: 1

      Plenty of reasons: 1. Price (of final part) 2. Manufacturing complexity (also linked to price) 3. Usage of final component (flexibility of application). Note that even makers of high-end GPUs / graphics cards(where price is less important) still use traditional methods of cooling.

    2. Re:How Come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do think that would make the heat spreader redundant, wouldn't it? Just skip the whole heat spreader altogether then; that should help a bit. I've got four Celerons, one PIII, and two Durons that weren't even made with heat spreaders. It seems that they are more for safety so the die doesn't get damaged from too much or uneven pressure. I have a 3.0GHz Prescott OC'd to 3.7 and it runs great without the heat spreader.

    3. Re:How Come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Itanium CPUs come like this - Heatsink and CPUs integrated in 1 unit. So at least theres one clever thing in the design of them!

    4. Re:How Come? by d2v · · Score: 1

      Another reason is that the material of the spreader must match the thermal coefficient of expansion of die as closely as possible. And these materials generally have medium thermal conductivities, which translates into higher temperature drop across them. So if you use the same material, either you get 1. higher heatsink thermal resistance if you use material of spreader for the heatsink OR 2. possibility of cracking of joint between spreader/heatsink and die ( which is of course far worse than reason #1)

    5. Re:How Come? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      This is basically how it was done back in the AMD Socket A days, where there was no heat spreader and you simply attached the cooler directly to the die. Problem was that people where breaking the dies, though that was more likely due to the lousy design of the CPU coolers/clips on Socket A systems and not the fact the die was exposed.

  33. Welcome To by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last Month.

    I saw this at LEAST a few months ago...

  34. Liquid-metal heat conductors by sdack · · Score: 1

    What they have now achieved can ultimately be achieved through the use of liquid-metal heat conductors. The liquid metal will fill any gaps on the surfaces and deep down to an atomic level, creating the best contact imaginable.

    1. Re:Liquid-metal heat conductors by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

      I assume you're talking about something like mercury. The problem is mercury conducts electricity, not to mention environmental concerns. That's the problem, you need something that conducts heat very well, but doesn't conduct electricity at all. Most materials do both(e.g. metals), or neither(e.g. glass). Personally, I think the idea of using water is a great one. (And no, pure water does not conduct electricity. Only water with impurities conducts electricity.)

    2. Re:Liquid-metal heat conductors by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Liquid metals create problems like liquid metal embrittlement - they get into cracks and make them larger. This is the major reason why you can't take mercury onto an aircraft - it has a major and rapid effect on aluminium alloys. After designing around that you still have to consider the conductivity - and I'm not sure how that would compare to silver powder in some sort of suspension in pretty good contact.

    3. Re:Liquid-metal heat conductors by sdack · · Score: 1

      Actually I am writing about already existing products like the stuff from CoolLaboratory. It is said that even some liquid-metal based heat 'pastes' can achieve up to 10x more conductive than pastes like Arctive Silver. I do not see where you would want to put water. It would vamporate. The liquid metals are AFAIK not based on mercury but said to be nonpoisoness.

    4. Re:Liquid-metal heat conductors by sdack · · Score: 1

      The liquid metals are a mix of metals, which happens to be liquid at room temperature. I believe the science there is quite complicated and must not necessarily be all based on mercury. What I know however from one of the currently existing products is that it can make aluminium dissolve (due its weaker electrical order[?]). Therefore one needs to be more careful than with standard paste. However, this problem should exists with pastes, too, when they contain a high concentration of silver and starts to conduct electricity.

    5. Re:Liquid-metal heat conductors by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The liquid metals are a mix of metals, which happens to be liquid at room temperature. I believe the science there is quite complicated and must not necessarily be all based on mercury.

      The science is incredibly simple - liquid metals are liquids. Another one you see is potasium, but it is very reactive. Warm things up a bit more and you have liquid sodium, lead etc, etc and there are plenty of often specatacular examples of what happens when they get into cracks, including one major accident in a lead smelter when molten lead caused cracking through several adjacent steel beams in a matter of seconds.

      Now if there is a product in a country I have never been to that is called liquid metal for some gimmicky reason without actually being one I can only speculate. If it is a mixture of other metals that are solid at room temperature in the pure state but liquid as a mixture the science is really not much more complicated than the behavior you get with a tin-lead mixture at a higher temperature.

  35. Exactly by CasperIV · · Score: 1

    That' is exactly right. They just made it easier to do quickly. Back in the day, I ran little Thoroughbred B core AMD's for over 3ghz; the only reason they stayed running is because of the connection between heatsink and CPU. The issue is not the amount of heat you can move from the heatsink (with newer heatsinks), but rather how fast you can move it away from the CPU. On some of my really high over clocking experiments it's not possible to even use a heatsink, but rather I need to force cool the die it's self... but that's not a problem for manufacturers yet ;)

  36. Ridges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The micro ridges help with the paste, but I am amazed that they do not have much bigger ridges in the surface, After all it is about surface area as well. A set of defined waves going through the top will allow for an increase in the SA and to pull the heat upwards away from from the chip.

  37. I got a better idea! by nbritton · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Make the top of the cpu's copper slug corrugated or dimpled, sin(x) and sin(x) + sin(y) respectively. Doing this will create more surface area for heat transfer. You can then use a piece of malleable gold foil to fill in any gaps.

    One of those why didn't I think of that moments... D'oh!

    1. Re:I got a better idea! by nbritton · · Score: 1

      Or you could do diamond shaped, tan(sin(x)) + tan(sin(x)).

    2. Re:I got a better idea! by sdack · · Score: 1

      Using sinus instead of triangles will have a similar surface. You could however do sin(x) + sin(y) - sin(10x)/5 - sin(10y)/5 and make it all more wobblier. But then again you can do that with triangles, too. Therefore there is no need for any fancy sinus and you get the reason for your "D'oh!". It is just not necessary. What IBM was looking for was a simple solution and they found one.

    3. Re:I got a better idea! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Use a wedge-shaped dovetail. Surface area can more than triple, and normal force can be hundreds of times the installation force. Just don't rely on ever having to separate the heatsink from the CPU, because once the thermal compound sets up a bit, the CPU and heatsink will be locked for life.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  38. Re:So... what did they do? by un1xl0ser · · Score: 1

    Err, I thought that it was to reduce build-up and naturally spread more evenly, the whole magic cross thing.

    --
    v4sw6PU$hw6ln6pr4F$ck 4/6$ma3+6u7LNS$w2m4l7U$i2e4+7en6a2X h
  39. Not just CPUs... by Splab · · Score: 1

    but also GPUs, I installed one of these bad boys: thermaltake schooner, but before I bought it I did some research and the reviewers claimed that the x800 pro from ATI would run at about 92 degrees Celsius under load, that was a bit worrying, but I took the chance and installed it. My card has never been above 80 with that heat sink, and I think the difference is in how and what type of compound used. I didn't use the supplied compound, but went with arctic silver instead, also I paid special notice to the instructions, most GPUs are slightly concave, so you have to be extra careful when applying the paste.

  40. Completely wrong! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GP post is wrong: better cooling = less fans = less noise.
    Better cooling here means a cooler CPU. But the EXACT same amount of heat (TDP) is being dissipated from it (just more efficiently). And that same amount of heat has to be pushed outside the case, so just as many fans are required to push the air in/out the case. So same noise too. Not that making quiet PCs is hard these days, the parts are all available (quiet fans, quiet PSUs, good cases, water cooling, etc) -- they're just pricey.

    And your post is also wrong in a way. A couple fans make so little of a difference over the total power consumption of the whole PC, like half a percent perhaps. Nothing to make any real difference. There's many other ways to reduce power consumption which actually make a real difference. Not to mention, you still need as many fans in the first place.

    1. Re:Completely wrong! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The exact same amount of heat is coming from the CPU, yes, but with a more efficient transfer of heat from the CPU to the heatsink, you can get by with just passive CPU cooling, instead of using a fan. Your overall case temperature will also be *slightly* less, because you don't have the friction from the CPU fan.

    2. Re:Completely wrong! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true either. The ONLY thing it changes is the CPU itself will be cooler. It doesn't make the CPU-to-air transfer any more efficient. It still has just as much heat to transfer. So it still needs the fan. The only way to get rid of the fan is basically making a bigger heat sink (it's all about surface and air flow).

      And it's not like a fan on a heat sink really creates any heat of its own. The fan itself uses like a couple watts tops, and they very efficient (the vast majority of that power will be used to move air around, not by friction). Not like a 0.1 watt saving in fan friction is going to make any real-life change in your case temps anyways.

  41. Before I saw the article... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    I thought that IBM would propose puting the leads on two outside edges of the chip and slapping a heatsink on the bottom. That would (almost) double the heat dissipation, too.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  42. Suckers!!! I use somethign far far better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like to use JB weld and I weld the CPU and heatsink together as one, that way ther is no gaps and the heat transfer is very high!

    http://jbweld.net/products/jbweld.php

  43. Manually applying it is not nearly as good by bigtrike · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do you really think that in 2 minutes with a razor blade that you can get a more uniform thickness than machinery which can be accurate to millionths of an inch?

  44. Re:So... what did they do? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    Could someone please explain to someone who's comfortable with suffering from a hardcore-attention-span-lexia? If you're comfortable with it, why did you post anonymously.
  45. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by NeilTheStupidHead · · Score: 1

    I agree, I usually use 3000+ grain wet-dry automotive finishing sand paper. It works by increasing the available surface area, which increases thermal transfer. Though for most low-performance computers I build, I just use thermal tape as it's easier to clean up.

    --
    Lose: misplace or fail || Loose: not bound together
  46. how can people talk about 3rd hand knowledge by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 1

    not being an electronics expert, I could not find a copy of the actual paper, but this url http://www.zurich.ibm.com/news/07/cooling.html actually gives some details, so people can actually shoot their mouths off knowing what it is that is being trashed.

  47. And that my friends, is the word of the day! by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

    craptacularity: The craptacularness of a given subject.

    Thank you!

    --
    How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
  48. Re:Roughened heat sink only for thermal paste? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    Does this "groovy" breakthrough only apply to chips that have been pasted with thermal goo? Will I get a hotter CPU by only using the new roughened heat sink without the goo? Of course you will. The grooves increase the surface area of the paste/heat-sink interface, as well as helping get a very thin layer of paste. But without the paste, the only contact will be at the tops of the ridges, which is much less surface area. BTW, the article isn't talking about using the grooves at the heat-spreader/heat-sink interface, it's talking about using it at the more critical chip/heat-spreader interface inside the CPU. IOW, it effects manufacturing, not user installation. Just look at the diagram.
  49. Wrong grease. by gpburdell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hope every one realizes that this has nothing to do with the goop you put on before you snap your heatsink on. This is the thermal grease that goes on the die before they put the cap on processor.

    1. Re:Wrong grease. by PoopDaddy · · Score: 1

      The parent definitely needs to be modded up as I think 90% of those replying don't realize this.

    2. Re:Wrong grease. by aXis100 · · Score: 1

      Why differentiate? Improving the CPU / Thermal Spreader efficiency means nothing if the Spreader/Heatsink interface is still crap.

      Even better, remove the heat spreader and have the CPU directly interface with the Heatsink like in the good old PIII days. Yes, I realise they stopped this due to fragile CPU's getting chipped, but there could be better ways.

    3. Re:Wrong grease. by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      A better way would be to make a CPU that doesn't waste so much energy that it requires a huge metal brick strapped to the top in the first place, like the good old P1 days.

  50. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Erm... You might not have noticed, but this technique is for the heat transfer between the CPU chip and the heat-spreader, NOT the heatsink bolted on later. This is inside the chip package, and underneath the metal plate you're thinking of as the CPU contact. You have no access to this interface, since it's sealed in the chip carrier. This interface uses a completely different compound as compared to the stuff you use to attach a heatsink, and the design they've come up with actually does work considerably better for this application, in addition to improving heat transfer, it also reduces application force, improving manufacturing yield, and therefore reducing cost.

  51. Doubling == both sides? by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

    I was expecting a new kind of package where you could cool both sides of the CPU die, instead of just one. That would obviously double the amount of heat transferred.

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  52. Re:Suckers!!! I use somethign far far better by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    What if you ever want to remove the processor. You can't remove the processor with the heat-sink still attached on my AMD system.

  53. So many people complaining about others by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not reading the article, but... It's not about between the head spreader and the heatsink!

    It's about the chip and the heatspreader!

  54. Mmmm, chips with ridges. by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    Ruffles make better ridged chips than IBM any day.

  55. Not just amd and intel by jeffeb3 · · Score: 1

    FTA: "Whether or not the AMDs or Intels of the world will buy in remains to be seen, but the potential is undeniable."

    They aren't the only folks who use heat sinks. Come on, use your head!

  56. Re:So put a radiator between the CPU and the radia by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

    buy some Indium. It's toxic though. It's what people use in no-shit situations though where you can't afford problems. Of course, you have to smush it a little harder than you typically do with CPU paste.

  57. Hopefully Apple is paying attention by salimma · · Score: 1

    .. an anonymous coward already said it, but to make sure more people sees this, let me reiterate:

    The first-generation Macbooks suffered from an overheating problem. On the quadrant where the CPU housing is located, the temperature would reach several degrees C higher than a comparable PC laptop (running the same CPU); there have been anecdotal tales of people disassembling their Macbooks, scraping off excess thermal paste and obtaining lower running temperatures.

    The second-generation Macbooks are less affected, but I'm not sure if Apple's assembly manuals have changed or not, or whether it's a result of Merom outputting less heat on average than Yonah. The version that was out at the time of the first-gens apparently instructs the technician to use thermal paste too liberally.

    --
    Michel
    Fedora Project Contribut
  58. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by Glonoinha · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here's a thought, since you appear to be a fairly fluent 'modder' -
    What if, after lapping both the heatsink and the CPU (to a mirror flat finish, or not, probably worth experimenting) instead of thermal paste you used gold leaf foil? Basically it is gold pounded ultra thin (in the 100 nanometer range, such that one square meter is made from 2 grams of gold), flat, would flex/bend to conform to the two surfaces and has the thermal transfer quality of ... well gold (which is pretty good.) I'd envision that if you got the lap right on both the CPU and the heatsink, you could do it as a single dry leaf (not as a paste) and give it a few minutes to settle in under pressure, turn on the CPU to heat things up a little until it seated in better (don't burn it in right away) and watch the CPU temps - I would be REAL interested in hearing how it went.

    Try it with a system you are retiring anyways, see what kind of difference it made. Never know, since a piece of gold leaf isn't prohibitively expensive (a small piece would cost you less than a dollar, get a few pieces while you are dialing in the process.)

    --
    Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
  59. Just clean your dust covered heatsink :) by laplace_man · · Score: 1

    I've seen so terribly dusted heat sinks that air wasn't flowing by at all..Pimp my PC folks excluded :))

  60. Re:Someone explain. This sounds silly. by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

    The function governing thermal conduction is proportional to length. Therefore, if you can half the thickness of your paste layer, you double the thermal conductivity.

    The way it works is that excess paste squishes into the microgrooves - instead of needing immense pressure to squish it all the way out to the edge (which won't happen). This means that the absolute minimum of paste should remain between the flat surfaces. If the grooves are relatively deep but narrow, you should get close to the minimum possible paste thickness (theoretically, you should only need enough paste to fill surface irregularities on the heat transfer surfaces between die and spreader). You still want the spaces between the grooves to be as flat as possible. You only sacrifice a small amount of surface area to the grooves, which is more than made up for by the decreased paste thickness.

  61. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, gold's worse than silver for heat transfer. And copper.

  62. Silver heatsink? Already been done. In 2001. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    NoiseControl Silverado used a pure silver heat spreader to couple a bare die CPU to aluminum fins. Pictures at Tom's Hardware.

    I'm not sure how the heat conductivity of sterling silver would compare. Being 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper, linear interpolation suggests that it would be pretty good, but I'm not sure of the details. Perhaps alloys scatter phonons more.

  63. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by camperdave · · Score: 1

    That may be true, but gold isn't going to tarnish or corrode (both of which, I'm relatively certain, would fall well below gold in the heat transfer department).

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  64. Anyone else think they hired a tire tread engineer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How to squeeze as much water as possible from under the tire.
    How to squeeze as much grease as possible from under the heatsink.

    Hmmm... How long until I can get a BFG(oodrich) cooler for my Core 2? :)

  65. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by tyrione · · Score: 1

    I suppose most overclockers aren't Mechanical Engineers with a deep understanding of Heat Transfer. IBM obviously hired a few MEs to do the job.

  66. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

    3000 grit paper will polish that like glass. I thought they said rough it up a bit.

    --
    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
  67. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by Glonoinha · · Score: 2, Informative

    Very true, but the issue I was getting at was that the thin layer of gold would be instead of the thermal grease, and would serve to create the 'gasket' between the CPU and heatsink, increasing (significantly, if my theory is right) the thermal transfer as the gold would have a much higher coefficient of thermal conductivity than even the best paste. The reason I suggested gold is that gold can easily be purchased in small quantities of gold foil, the gold foil is ~very~ flexible / malleable and would serve to fill in all the microscopic gaps between the CPU and heatsink creating a thermal bridge in the process (which is the purpose of the paste), thus making the cooling solution quite a bit more effective.

    In theory.

    Anybody want to try it, perhaps on some older hardware?

    --
    Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
  68. This is a serious breakthrough? by MadRat · · Score: 1

    Thermal conduction is a simple product of surface area. They didn't do anything magic except increase surface area. The whole thing would be a hell of alot more efficient if the core's surface had the same matching opposing pattern so that they interfaced and no thermal crap was necessary at all. Bet they didn't think of that! They were too busy patting themselves on the back for coming up with a solution that has been around forever, only they are doing it on a smaller scale apparently. I find it odd they didn't try the same solution on the thermal plate-heatsink interface, too. The same concept should work there, too.

  69. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by binarysins · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sounds like it would not work well:

    "To be effective a TIM combines properties to minimize the total interface resistance. High conductivity (200-420 W/mC) materials, like copper, silver, aluminum and gold, maximize thermal conductivity, but do not flow into intimate contact because of the relative lack of compliance so the interface resistances are very high and the overall performance is poor."

    http://www.indium.com/_dynamo/download.php?docid=3 10

  70. Awww man by spankey51 · · Score: 1

    That means it'll be another 18 months before I can fry an egg on my CPU... That's ok, I can wait...

    *taps foot*

    --
    -ubuntu others as you would have others ubuntu you.
  71. Re:And people thought they were cool polishing.... by mrbluze · · Score: 1

    IBM looked to find the best way to get the gooey stuff where it needs to be and in the right amount, and to make it significantly more efficient in the process.

    This is highly suggestive that the engineers at IBM watch far too much porn.

    --
    Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
  72. One thing to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cool!

  73. 5 mm? by gacl · · Score: 1

    Are the pictures right? 5 millimeters? Shouldn't that be 5 micrometers?

  74. Research done on thermal interface preparation by Beefpatrol · · Score: 1

    I actually spent a considerable amount of my employer's money researching this particular question as it applied to other types of devices. (TECs, instead of CPUs, with big heat sinks on them.) After doing a lot of tests with different thermal interface materials, (different types of thermal grease, Arctic Silver 5 included,) we concluded that Arctic Silver 5 really was the best, but not by much. The best performances of Arctic Silver 5 were less than 10% better than the best performances of regular thermal grease (Thermagon 2500). The manner of application, however, did make a large difference. We tested the razor blade method, (using it like a spatula to apply a thin, even layer,) versus the blob in the middle, (and sometimes 4 small blobs near the corners,) methods. The blob methods won every time. Whomever mentioned that the air bubbles are difficult to get rid of is correct -- if one tries this experiment with two microscope slides so that one can see the grease pattern, it quickly becomes obvious that a patient attempt at causing a central blob to spread throughout the interface moving in one direction only, (outward,) produces the best results. It is also helpful to try the experiment with the slides to see exactly how long one has to apply consistent pressure and very small movements to get the material to spread over the whole interface evenly. (Hint: it's way longer than you might think -- best results were obtained by placing a weight on the heat sink and leaving it there overnight. I suppose the spring on a CPU heat sink would provide the same results if it is stiff enough.) With regard to the optimal amount required for the interface, the manufacturer's instructions were an excellent guide. The manufacturer's spec sheets usually indicate the mass of thermal interface material required for some area of interface with a specific interface thickness. Note that the interface thickness that one is able to achieve is limited ultimately by the flatness of the surfaces being mated by the thermal interface material. Patience in making the thermal material cover and then flow out the sides of the interface is also important. So, if you really want optimal performance, buy a heat sink with a CPU-contact side flatness that is very good. (Or find a way to polish it yourself using a granite table or some other extremely flat surface.) Use Arctic Silver 5, and *do* do the bit where the instructions tell you to rub the stuff on the heat sink and massage it around, wipe the excess off, then apply your blob to the CPU. My tests suggested that the pre-rubbing bit was not just extra work. I think this is probably because aluminium and copper both gain surface oxide layers very readily, so one is usually not contacting metal to CPU with thermal grease in between. (One is usually contacting very thin metal oxide layer to the heat source, and the oxide layer has much higher thermal impedance than the metal itself.) Arctic Silver 5 has nitride particles in it, whose presence in the mixture I can only imagine to be useful as a very very fine abrasive that is actually hard enough to remove aluminum oxide from heat sinks. And use the blob method of thermal material deposition. Practice with microscope slides first so you can get a feel for what is happening in the interface where you can't normally see it.

  75. The shape squeezes out the air by sdack · · Score: 1

    I just had a look at the pictures of the surface's structure. It looks as if it is capable of squeezing out all the air due to its crossed shapes. Thus the problem IBM must have had is that before it enclosed a lot of air. The valleys should conduct the air out during the mounting and thereby guarantee a minimum of how much air stays behind. The shape actually defines the spots where air can get enclosed whereas before - flat to flat - it could have been anywhere and with one or many bubbles. I am now too lazy to think of a formula to describe the benefit, but it should explain the 2x improvement.

  76. Curiousity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not an o/c modder. As a matter of fact, the last time I even built my own box was about 7 years ago, and now I just prefer to pay for whatever will do the job.

    That said, this cooling stuff makes me curious since it is similar in a sense to engine cooling, something I still do frequently. (Well, maybe not the cooling part, but tinkering with the engine part.) It seems like we're still working with the same darn concepts even though our chips have gotten significantly faster, and thus hotter. Whether the CPU is air cooled or liquid cooled, we're still using a heatsink on TOP of the CPU, which sounds very inefficient to me, and is exactly why IBM (and others) are still working with thermal paste in the first place. Something drastically (or is it?) different seems to be in call for.

    Take engines, for example. Passive (air) cooled engines exist, and they work pretty well, but it gets exponentially harder to cool something with air alone when the power (and heat) increases. Aircraft engines tend not to have as much of a problem, because the constant flight at high speed allows for quite a bit of air to travel over the fins, which are essentially heatsinks. For some (relatively lower powered) motorcycle engines, it works too, partly because they stop less frequently than cars (zipping through traffic, instead of sitting in a traffic jam) and are pretty much open to the environment, allowing for a good amount of air flow. Car engines used to be air cooled, but sitting in a mostly closed compartment with poor airflow ended up creating water cooled engines. Even the Porsche 911 has been water cooled since the 996.

    However, there's a difference in water cooled engines, and water cooled CPUs. The main difference (as far as cooling is concerned) is that engine blocks themselves are cooled, whereas CPUs have a heatsink that is cooled. That means that whether it is air cooled or water cooled, the CPU still requires the same damn heatsink, and is still stuck with the thermal paste issue. Automotive engines have a layer of water flowing right around the cylinder itself, allowing for maximum levels of heat dissipation. Why can't CPUs have the same? That is, why not have the heatsink integrated as part of the CPU itself, rather than have a second piece bonded on top? Is it that hard? Or should I be kicking myself right now for not running to a patent attorney?

    Chip technology has advanced a great bit, but again, the chip CASING hasn't really changed that much. Maybe a bit of work in this area needs to be addressed. Afterall, the CASE may actually be just as inefficient in heat transfer as the thermal pasted is. If the chip were mounted directy ON a heat conducting surface, and a gasket was placed around the edges of this surface, a "head" could be placed ontop, leaving an opening inside to allow liquid to flow. There will still be issues like speed of liquid flow (you won't want to blas the chip off the surface) and methods to keep the liquid purified (avoid corrosion), but it seems possible.

    Sort of reminds me of the old Cray supercomputers that had their parts submerged in some kind of a liquid (nitrogen?) to cool them. Purified H2O would probably work as well in modern computers. Of course, I'm talking out of my ass since I know engines and not CPUs, and I know my engine won't breakdown just because I put a fingerprint on it!

  77. this is NOT about heat sinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if you look at the diagram in the article this is about the application of thermal paste between the chip & the spreader.

    from the article
    "IBM's find addresses how thermal paste is typically spread between the face of a chip and the heat spreader that sits directly over the core."

  78. 100 year old concept put to use in a chip... by karlandtanya · · Score: 1

    When you get to work, buy the old dude back in the machine shop a cup of coffee.
    He can teach you something.

    http://www.moglice.com/newsite/pages/straighttalk. html
    http://www.waygrinding.com/

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
    1. Re:100 year old concept put to use in a chip... by Plekto · · Score: 1

      The way that I always did it was the following:

      1 - tiny bit(more of a film) on my fingers - massage the heatsink and cpu surface until I start to get a little heat from friction(have to work it in a bit). This fills the pores and grooves in the metal. The cpu and heatsink should look like they have a thin film of oil or grease on them. Utterly transparent and not visible unless you angle it so that the light hits it right is the goal.

      2 - put a tiny blob in the middle. Now, by tiny blob, I mean really tiny. Half to one quarter the size of a tic-tac. A 2mmx2mm blob. One tube of Arctic Silver or simmilar is enough for about *20* CPUS using this method. You want an ubsurdly small amount.

      3 - seat the CPU. The springs on most aftermarket heatsinks like Zalman makes require 15-20lbs of pressure or more to snap into place. Leave the entire assembly overnight and don't breathe on it until the whole thing sets up and locks into place.