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Elite Won't Replace Premium or Core Skus
As the day has progressed, more information about the 'Elite' has become available. GamesIndustry.biz is reporting that the other two 360 skus will still be available. The Elite is not replacing either of them. Interestingly, there's no word on a price drop for them either. Major Nelson's most recent podcast has several interviews and details about the new offering, which you may find informative. There's more analysis available, if you find that interesting: CVG wonders aloud who is going to buy this thing, while a Wedbush Morgan analyst mentioned to GamesIndustry.biz that he thinks this validates the PS3 strategy. "'It appears to me that Microsoft sees the writing on the wall - Blu-ray is going to win the format wars ... Ultimately, Microsoft will likely offer a Blu-ray drive with the 360 Elite, and I think consumers will be able to select based solely upon other drivers.' Pachter also believes that although the Xbox 360 Elite will register with early adopters of hi-def content, the current 20GB model will still be sufficient for many consumers."
What is to stop me from buying a Core 360 and a 120GB HDD? If you don't care about HDMI, where's the value in the Elite SKU?
Is everyone suddenly a merchandiser or something? I'll replace your sku.
470 dollars for the 360 itself
100 dollars for WiFi
200 dollars for the HD-DVD addon
50 dollars a year to play games online - 250 dollars over five years
There are no hardware changes other than the addition of the HDMI digital connection - so all of the existing hardware defects will exist with this model. The move to 65nm has been delayed to later this year. So you sure as hell better pay for an extended warranty.
And that is not including all the little things like chargers that Microsoft is nickel and diming Xbox owners with.
You are looking at spending ~820-1020 on this system over five years. WTF are they smoking up in Redmond?
But the PS3 advantage (if they can establish a price point and sell enough of the damn things) is that the Blu-Ray drive is standard. That means that the larger capacity can be used for game data. No matter what optional drives Microsoft ships for the 360, game designers will always be hobbled by the constraint of the DVD as the lowest common denominator.
If the PS3 survives its games will end up looking a lot more impressive than 360 games of the same vintage.
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
I guess I'm just repeating the normal mantra: needs the HD-DVD built in and Wireless built in. Right now it's 480+200+100. I find the price of the little wireless device most eggregious even now and wonder why there are not third party devices out there that can do the wireless.
I agree with the comment that was quoted. Microsoft would have done a lot better making this Elite edition use either blu-ray or use the HD Drive. Allow it to play HDdvds or Blu-rays would have been reason to buying the elite edition. Even though they do have the HD drive you can install, but not everyone wants to go to the hastle to install extra stuff.
Why did Microsoft do this?
Releasing a console with built-in HD-DVD would be interesting. Though there are potential reasons to avoid this.
1) Price being too close to the PS3, in some ways validating it.
2) No guarantee of success and thus subsidizing of the HD-DVD drive.
But that said, decided not to include an HD-DVD drive pratically makes the whole thing a wash. Without the HD-DVD drive, all we have is a more expensive premium console that has a larger hard drive, HDMI hookups, and is black.
Without any truly tangible benefit, it shrinks the extremely important price difference between the consoles. My points 1 and 2 above apply in almost the exact same way.
1) Price too close the the PS3, in some ways validating it.
2) Lack of backing of HD-DVD can be seen as implying a lack of confidence in the medium.
The whole thing seems ill-conceived. If they didn't want to release a console with an built-in HD-DVD drive, they could have simply upgraded live and announced a new, larger hard drive alone and perhaps a black case mod for the first 1000 buyers. A whole new SKU for this is a ridiculous waste of resources, while at the same time killing several key talking points for the 360.
Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
It appears to me that Microsoft is acknowledging the format wars are stillborn. Their support for HD-DVD was just about defusing the PS3 anyway, not defeating Blu-Ray. MS already has their license fees secured, regardless of how the little-plastic disc formats fare.
The media victory Microsoft is after, is digital delivery.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
Prices are funny. Microsoft is obviously milking every dime they can get out of gamers who buy a system before they drop the prices. While there is no sign of that happening, you can pretty much count on any PS3 price drop to be matched by a 360 price drop of equal or greater value.
That "validation" of the PS3 strategy by way of price is a bit misleading, though. Sony equates the PS3 to fine equipment whose price indicates its value. But it's a genuinely expensive device to make. What the PS3 price points have proven to the people who figure out the prices of consoles is that consoles have been too cheap and the market could sustain them at higher prices than previously thought.
Other very expensive consoles have gone down in flames for home use... but the median price for the majority of consoles at the market at any given time has been a $200 - $250 sweet spot. The only thing that Microsoft and Sony have done is show that the sweet spot can be coaxed higher.
What I don't understand is why Microsoft isn't playing a price war yet. They've got the biggest userbase for this generation, most established games (excluding Wii's ability to play Gamecube games), and they're turning a profit on current consoles sold. Sony's machine costs $800 and putting pressure on them to lower a price point could hasten any future demise... if it's in the cards.
My only stab at trying to understand is that Microsoft eventually wants to buy the Sony gaming division, but I'll be the first to suggest that's an outrageous claim. Hmmm...
More Twoson than Cupertino
I have both a 20GB 360 and a 60GB PS3. When I compare price vs. features between both units, it's now starting to look like the PS3 wins out. Especially if one believes that Blu-Ray is going to win the HD format war. MS has made a pricing mistake, and I think the market will give them a good thrashing as a result.
Upgrading to the Elite is problematic for me, even if I were so inclined, because my wife likes to play the XBLA games on her own account and I don't want to rebuy them all. Has Microsoft anticipated this and will they make games fully authorized after I upgrade? I don't want to be forced to connect to XBL and under my account just to play my XBL games. If they want me to consider upgrading then they should plan to offer assistance to people in my situation. I'll warrant there are plenty of people like me out there.
someone at Microsoft is smoking crack. They get the edge over Sony and then they step on their crank with this crap.
The pricing virtually eliminates premium sales. No one is going to pay $400 for the premium w/ 20GB instead of $480 for the elite w/ 120GB when the 120GB drive is sold separately for $200. Now there's actually a choice for the consumer at the $500 price point. Do I buy the 360 with the larger hard drive or buy the 20GB PS3 and have a Blu-Ray player?
Leave it to Microsoft to make the $600 PS3 look like a good deal. $480 + $100 WiFi + $200 HD-DVD = $780.
...just not a common term for it.
& btnG=Google+Search&meta=
...
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+sku
and if you look in the results
A uniquely identifiable line within a product range. A particular product may have many different variation s eg 20 percent extra free, price marked etc. each of these variation would be a unique SKU.
www.applause.hu/terms_e.htm
but i will agree that SKU is generally used to refer to the code of the product, not the product itself.
If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
I think that most people are missing the point. For the general population who's interested in obtaining a game system who cares? The comparing value versus price between PS3 and 360 is only valid if you're looking at doing everything BUT gaming.
I mean really, you can tell me for instance that the PS3 will do everything from clean my laundry to wash my car but at the end of the day it doesn't have my Gears of War. It doesn't have my Crackdown. There's no Forza Motorsport. There's no XBLA. To top it off it's also a lot cheaper for me to get to play a large library (and ever-growing...just check out upcoming releases like The Darkness, Bioshock, and others) of great games that look spectacular with a superb online system. Can I play Blu-Ray movies? No, but then, did I really want to buy a game system to play movies?
It's part of the same reason the Wii is selling. It's cheap, it plays good games, and nobody gives a fuck if it can't wipe your butt for you, too. So what does this new 360 do? Who does it cater to? People that feel they have to have the "extra shiny" version of a console to feel superior to other people. The other people are those interested in the Marketplace for downloading things which means there isn't a value comparison with the PS3 since the PS3 doesn't have access to the Marketplace...the very source of content the interested users wanted in the first place. The rest of us just get the Premium and rock on because it lets us play our games which is what WE wanted in the first place.
There will be a true features/price comparison between the 360 and PS3 when the PS3 has a large library of awesome games (and for the cross-platform ones like DMC4, VF5, and others it's going to need to be worth coughing up several hundred dollars for a better experience or we're still going to get them on the cheaper system that gives the same or better experience) that make it worthwhile to have for playing games.
Anyone seriously interested in a media server has probably already gotten an Apple product or some other personal computer solution since they tend to be better at it overall. This is all for show and to cater to an elitist (though not necessarily "elite") portion of the interested 360 population, not to the rest of us who buy game systems for playing games.
"Just a fox, a whisper."
Hell, I'd release one with a dual drive able to read both formats and be done with it!
What I really want to know and can't find info anywhere:
- Are there any significant revisions to the internal hardware that would make the machine itself more efficient?
- Does it run cooler?
- Is it more quiet?
There was an article 2 weeks back that went over the component reduction of the 3 Playstation consoles as time went on. Just curious if the Xbox 360 Elite received something similar from its manufacturer.
MS wants to get the new iteration of their 360 hardware out the door that is, the cooler, quieter and cheaper to produce iteration.
Whilst cheaper to produce however, MS will still initially make a loss until they're shipping en-masse. Therefore, I'd say MS is releasing the elite with the new hardware iteration as a method to ship said new hardware without taking as high a monetary loss. Essentially, what this means is that they're using the elite as a tool to bring down cost of production of the new hardware iteration, so that 6months down the line, they can start building the premium version with the new hardware so cheap that they can announce a massive price drop on the core and premium.
Whilst the Elite may indeed look like an idiotic short term decision, if this is their plan then by the end of the year you could see MS shifting the 360 perhaps even as cheap as the Wii is currently. This is something Sony wont be able to compete with any time soon, they've already shafted backwards compatibility in the name of reducing production costs for the European release of the PS3, by xmas 2007 year I'd be suprised if the PS3 had dropped at all, but again, I bet the 360 is selling for current Wii prices. As an aside, I'd guess the Wii will be cheaper again by then, Nintendo is shifting so many units and never made a loss per-unit in the first place so a price cut would be an easy hit for them by xmas 2007.
I don't know US prices off by heart, but my prediction for xmas 2007 console prices in the UK is something like:
Wii - £149.99
360 Core - £169.99 (or possibly even written off altogether)
360 Premium - £199.99
PS3 60gb - £399.99
like this one that presumes everyone already knows what its about just because its apparently a microsoft product?
Its just like presuming that all computer software runs under MS windows.
I have no clue what an elite is even after reading the post.
If you use your PS3 to play games and to play movies, you are going to find yourself swapping disc a lot more than a 360 which to date has only ONE FMV heavy game where you have to swap discs once every several hours. With the HD-DVD add-on (or a standalone player), I can keep my favorite game in the box and ready to go at a moments notice and don't have to swap everytime I want to watch a movie (which may take more than one sitting for a feature filled disc). So with the 360 setup, you swap LESS and you don't wear out the most fragile (and expensive in the case of the PS3) part of your game console- the optical drive mechanism. Thank you for pointing out the superiority of the options that Microsoft gives you and the inferiority and inflexibility that Sony forces on the user (who probably doesn't even own an HD set).
(1) They both have 512MB, but the OS on the PS3 permanently takes a much bigger slice of that, something like 128MB?? vs 32MB used permanently by the OS on the 360.
(2) The 360 has symmetric multiprocessors--3 dual-core PPC chips that use the same memory heirarchy, caches etc. That's 6 in-order execution pipes. Compare that to the PS3 which has *one* general processor pipe and *7* (not 8) SPUs which are basically DSPs. One of those SPUs is permanently reserved to the OS so you only get to use 6 of them. The SPUs have a stupendously tiny amount of RAM each (128 KB or something?) so you have to shuffle data back and forth from the main RAM with DMA in order to get anything done. That transfer can be fast but its still often a bottleneck.
(3) The 360 is pretty flexible about letting you use any of your 480MB as graphics memory or for non-graphics stuff. The PS3 requires a fixed division. This combined with the OS memory usage means that when porting 360 games to the PS3, we usually divide all our texture sizes by 2.
(4) The 360 has 48 unified pixel/vertex pipes. If you game heavily uses vertex shaders, more of the pipes will be doing vertexes at any one time, and if it heavily uses pixel shaders, more of them will be doing that--but you can easily get near-100% utilization of the hardware. The PS3 has classic dedicated pipes (I don't know how many) so you still have to balance that usage like you have to on PC video cards.
(5) The Microsoft devkits are not perfect, but they are really good -- much better than Nintendo's and 1000x better than Sony's.
The combination of these things means the Xbox360 is MUCH easier to program for, MUCH easier to port existing console or PC graphics engines to, and in general easier for developers to extract the power from.
I predict it will be at least 2 years before we see PS3 games that rival the best Xbox360 games in graphical quality and performance.
WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
make-it custom, leave consumer choice between HD-DVD or Blu-Ray thing is, how the games will come on support ? in the end i think consumer is the one who's gonna lose, blue-ray is already shipped on ps3, but blu-ray disk are more expensive to produce, hd-dvd's are cheaper to make, but lesser pieces over to play them, so tough choice there...
anyway hdmi port + 120 hdd does not imply 160 dollar expenses MS should at least improvise some wifi over that
well, anyway i don't play so much around, good think there is a choice of products but i still miss those 25 dollar games from back in the days...
I have no interest in either format that offers little value over DVD, and has less restrictions. I want to PLAY GAMES and view media off my PC about (300 gig). So let's do the REAL math. $600 PS3 $310 PS3 notebook drive to match/hold my existing desktop PC media (and I have to reencode and copy/duplicate the media) $40 HDMI cable to match resolution of the given cable of 360 $0 For the great PS3 "online service" for the few online games the PS3 has $400 Premium 360 $40 WAP and wired router, lets me put 4 devices on a wireless network easily $200 For XBOX Live for 5 years when bought in yearly amounts (just shop a little) $10 USB multi-reader card to match PS3's Hmmm, I have $300 extra to burn. Perhaps for that HDDVD drive and a couple of movies. Also, the 360 has infinitely better online support and a lot better games (more games in 1080p, more online games, more exclusives i.e. dead rising, lost planet, gears of war, Halo 3, Lumines, viva pinata, star trek legacy, chromehounds) Oh, I could even write my own game for the 360 if I wanted too. Face it, the PS3 sucks for anything other than a BlueRay player, an expensive UNIX box or running folding @home.
This one was pretty pathetic. The first mention of the actual product's name that the story is about is in the 12th of 13 lines in the blurb. I read all the way to the end before I knew what the title or article was even about, and I still don't know what it all means. Of course, Zonk apparently knows plenty about this, as he put up two articles on the subject today. Maybe an update to the previous article or a new article that didn't show up on the front page was in order instead of a brand-new, totally incomprehensible one right there, up front.
Also, as to those people saying that "sku" == "product," you're wrong. SKU stands for stock keeping unit, and according to Wikipedia they are assigned at the merchant level. Use real words when you are writing journalism, if not solely for the sake of appearing to be fluent in the language you are being paid to write in.
It took me a couple of reads of the first paragraph and then seeing the topic, that this was probably MS' XBOX 360.
I thought that "Elite" referred to the classic computer game. Silly me.
Wearing pants should always be optional.
The game Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, a SOE MMORPG, packs in at a whopping 17gb installed. 2 DVD's plus the inevitable patches and updates that need to be downloaded.
While you can rant and rave about the merits of Vanguard it shows that a single dvd just isn't enough anymore.
And that game, unlike Everquest 2 doesn't even have tons of speech in it.
Neither does it have any pre-rendered movies. That 17gig of data is just maps, textures, music and sounds.
I remember that one of the first CD games, 7th guest game in fact on multiple cd's.
And no, that wasn't very user friendly. People HATE to swap discs. The alternative is a lengthy install procedure were everything is transferred from the install discs to the HD. A limited space HD (a pitifull 20gb for the core 360) that you probably don't want to clutter with the intro movie that could just as well play from the play disc.
Frankly, kid, welcome to 2007. Every single time a new storage medium makes its introduction someone claims that the old ways are still good enough. Well I got news for you, 640kb is NOT enough for everyone. Technology moves on.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
They just cant include it because no drive does 12 speed DVD and therefore doesnt meet the spec for 360 games.
MS can easily supply a BR drive too, but believe that HD DVD is better for the consumer, ultimatly it'll be digital online delivery anyhow and media will become a thing of the past.
Saying that I dont see the Elite offering good value for money unless your desprate for HDMI & love HDCP.
and
Assumptions:
- everyone knows what a "sku" is (an open-source implementation of a ski? a pygmy skunk?)
- everyone knows that the word "Elite" refers only to a particular version of a particular game console released by Microsoft
- everyone knows that Microsoft's other current marketing cliches for its X-Box 360 console are "Premium" and "Core"
- everyone is sitting with baited breath with all the details of what is going on, just waiting for this vital piece of information ("As the day has progressed...")
Zonk, you've done it again. Acronyms, lack of context, assumed knowledge. Slashdot: news for people who already know what we're reporting about.
Read Pynchon.
Ok, quick question. Why have ANY mpeg cutscenes? I understood the need back in the day when FinalFantasy VII had primitive graphics but GORGEOUS cutscenes, but now? RE4 (on Gamecube anyway) did all the cutscenes in game, and it was fantastic. Gears of War looks like it was all ingame engine (I don't know for sure though).
Why at this point don't they use the in-game engine? The graphics are nice enough and it keeps you immersed.