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Why Powered USB Is Going to Fail
An anonymous reader writes "Patrick McFarland, famous Free Software Magazine author, has written a two part article about why Powered USB is not taking off at home. (part 2 is also available) He includes a lengthy history on why USB took off in the first place, and then continues on to explain what we gain by allowing Powered USB to power all our devices."
Agreed.I've never been a big fan of USB. The concept is fantastic, a unified connector that links just about any device to any other and can charge them is a great idea. However I am still bitter the Firewire lost out. It has more bandwidth, has sturdier connectors, and can deliver far more power. Being able to just plug one cable to power and link a hard drive would be great, I have one of those external IDE enclosures, and having *another* power brick is just silly.
Being able to charge high draw devices through Firewire would rock. Powering my laptop from my PC would be great, especially if it will be syncing files at the same time, allowing me to leave the power brick in my laptop case and not have to get it out after getting home.
In my eagerness to get this post in first, I didn't read the article before I started typing. He says it all the same way I would. So to all of you who haven't RTFA'd, do it to find out the rest of this comment's points. Now lets see if I can still get this in first...
I hate printers.
Tell her you have a really big penis. She'll know you're lying, but that's OK, because she'll know you speak with a forked tongue, and then her imagination will take over.
I hate printers.
like offloading work from the cpu as the older and slow fire wire 400 bus is faster then the usb 2 bus and it can be used to link 2 systems together with out a special cable.
I might take this guy more seriously if his post wasn't full of spelling and grammar errors.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Don't tell her - just do it while she's sleeping
You know what we really need?
Wireless power supplies.
I don't feel that computer designers should really have to think about some peripheral device sucking 50 watts out of a connection on the motherboard. If you want power, get a cord. If you want portable power, bring a battery. Just having one fewer cable on a desk is not a problem worth solving this way.
Laptops, for instance, are designed around very limited power budgets. If you plug a 1000 watt USB hair dryer into it, how long are the batteries going to last?
A solution I would be in favor of is building lower power peripherals. Building 500 GB flash hard-drive replacements than run on half-a-watt should be possible in a couple of years. Building very low power OLED displays should be possible. Building low-power devices is something that is a win in every possible way, and should be encouraged -- the USB power limitation is a great way to stimulate this!
That said, I'm really sorry I passed up the USB-powered heated typing gloves I saw in Shinjuku last fall...
Thad Beier
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
Powered USB will encourage manufacturers to design peripherals which consume more power, which will negatively impact the earth. They should think of ways for PCs to consume less power, not more.
I love the idea of those USB power strips. Imagine being able to power your notebook off of one! That could end the different power brick for every notebook mess.
On USB 2.0 vs. FireWire400/800: I know that this subject as been beat to death, but anyway... Higher speed are always nice, but I am not often limited by the bus speed. What I LOVE about USB is that the specification is open. Anyone can download it. You can build your own USB gizmos in your basement; no large investment is required. There are plenty of chips that support USB available in small quantities (like 1 or 2). You can even make USB look just like a serial port, making said gizmos compatable with LABView with no driver fuss. Try that with FireWire! Now if I could make all my little lab gizmos powered off the USB bus as well, heck, I might never go home.
I know FireWire is popular for video transfer, but isn't that what DVI is for? For data transfer, you don't have to run DVI in real time, and you can run 3.9 Gbits/sec over DVI today.
Powered WiFI is going to take over!
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Powered USB sounds like a mess. But I wouldn't count those people out. Keep in mind that USB 1.0 looked like it was never going to make it compared to FireWire.
Furthermore, with wireless USB, the whole thing is up in the air: wireless data with wired power may well be a better way to go overall, and Powered USB may simply not be aimed at the consumer at all.
Incidentally, the set of FireWire-powered devices seems similar to the set of USB-powered devices, meaning that the higher power available from FireWire doesn't seem to be sufficient to enable a whole lot of new applications.
When I saw the subject, I thought this might be about another problem that I have been considering: wall power sockets for small gadgets. It seems somewhat inefficient to take the 12v output of a solar array or mini wind turbine then invert this to mains voltage (230v over here / 110v in North America) then send this out to (large) wall sockets and plug in a wall-wart to bring it back to 12v or lower.
I had assumed that there were basically two options available: high current, but ugly, car "cigarette-lighter"- type 12v sockets and small, convenient, but low current (as the article points-out) USB. Most gadgets come with cables that will work with at least one - and often both - of these.
Firewire only seems to be used seriously in the video field where, perhaps, its strong support for DRM is considered vital by the manufacturers (even if not the consumers).
Any other thoughts?
As a result we will be back to the situation of having more devices than we have sockets. Maybe the solution will be powered USB hubs with their own monster power brick.
Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.
This is slashdot; brotherhood of tech poets, code warriors, immortals of nerdome. We don't need no grammar.
There already is a specification that meets the requirements that Powered USB attempts to satisfy - it's called Firewire.
All that needs to happen is for the peripheral manufacturers to start producing Firewire devices and for the PC manufacturers to include Firewire ports on motherboards and laptops. The last thing that is needed is yet another half-baked 'standard', especially one that can be implemented in any number of ways.
Powered USB? Gah.
theres this girl I like and I really want to eat her out. I could spend hours pleasuring her. How do I ask her?
Register for callbacks on device enumeration.
Once she has enumerated, check her device descriptor bDeviceClass for class USB_HUMAN and bDeviceSubClass for HETEROSEXUAL_WOMAN. These steps are very important, do not omit them. If these are zeros in the Device Descriptor, iterate through all the Interface Descriptors. Note, if there is more than one Interface Descriptor, it may be best to skip the device.
Now send a class request, SET_FEATURE ( HUMAN_ORAL_SEX ). If she doesn't stall the request, you are good to go. Some targets have a bug where the request are stalled incorrectly a few times. In this case, you should retry a few times, but not too many, unless BUILD_OPTION_EMO_LOSER is defined in which case you should retry an unlimited number of times until the OS bugchecks. Actually, if that is defined, you can skip the class and subclass post enumeration checks too.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Everyone should understand the concept called GE (Good Enough). USB works and is simple to implement. Just like RS232. I don't think its ethical to design a USB device that can only receive its power from the USB cord. Many cheap low end cords don't even have the power option. The power requirement was and after thought during the requirements phase. Plus if you have a cat or rabbit tell me how many cords they chew through. Think about it would you want to replace your mother board every time you get a short circuit? Plus remember engineers have to deal with idiots that have MBAs they will make the engineer justify every cap and every layer of that pcb board.
... to succeed: For the same reason there is are NO standards for external power bricks for laptops/printers/scanners/hubs etc. Because there is a high margin add-on market from manufacturers to replace proprietary power devices (when lost) with expensive branded units which are probably about 5x to 10x the cost of what generic units would if there was a some common defined types (V/ma/connector-types) which would be universal. A move to efficent USB power would undercut this business in the same way, so the only standard that will be agreed upon will be an unworkable one. Firewire never replaced USB because it had licence encumberences (cost more to use), alas.
No worries, this is Slashdot, all is forgiven. It's just my way.
This guy talks about incompatibility. I don't know USB from Firewire, but I don't see the problem. My Sansa works perfectly with powered USB (it charges and syncs off of a single regular USB cable). What kind of compatibility problems exist today? What devices don't work with "Regular" USB at this point? I'm not a gadget guy, but everything I've seen and used has worked flawlessly.
I don't respond to AC's.
I'm not entirely sure that I can take an article seriously that asserts the IBM PC was the "first home computer that took off". Firstly, it too expensive to even be considered a home computer. I think the first home computer that took off in the US was probably the Commodore 64. In Britain and most of Europe, the first home computer that took off was probably the Sinclair Spectrum. The PC didn't take off until much, much later as a home computer - really, not until the early 1990s (by which time, we were already on the second generation of home computers to take off, the Amiga and ST, and to a lesser extent, updated versions of the Spectrum and BBC Micro)
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
If there is more than one interface descriptor, that's the best time to accept the device. C'mon! And never, ever throw out the return code BISEXUAL_WOMAN, or worse still, an array of them!
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/4139
That's one way
True, but I still think for robustness reasons you should skip devices with an array of interfaces with bDeviceSubClass=PANSEXUAL_VEGAN_FURRY and bDeviceSubClass=LOOK_AT_ME.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Record a video message for her. Post it on Youtube and then post the link here. Be sure to point out that you'll only do it if she'll have a shower or bath first so she's not too smelly - women LOVE being told that and will always appreciate your sensitivity.
I promise not to laugh at you or call you a pathetic nerd.
Trust me!
USB. Easy for n00bs. Under-spec'ed for pro use because of bus contention and polling and power and........
OK so obviously it makes no difference what the geeks think. Nothing to see here, move along.
There's still a lot more than just powered USB that needs to be consolidated to get rid of the rat nest of wires that live around our computers. Have a look: http://pfh.blogspot.com/2006/09/wonders-of-wireles s-i-was-looking-under.html
USB has a standard voltage of: 5VDC
.500 A = 2.5 Watts
The standard current associated with that voltage is: 500mA
By ohm's law:
P = IV
5 V *
Even if the specification is increased to 1 A or 2 A, you still have a problem with many things like hard drives requiring 12V and 5V inputs. You can make 5V into 12V, it just costs a lot of space and money.
Actually, I'm with on of the comments to the article on your site: Increase power efficiency.
As an example, I have a USB-powered Canon color scanner (one of the things you mentioned that can't be powered as such) and it works great. We have global energy issues anyway, and I'd rather provide a constrained amount of power than a firehose through which every device can suck as much as they want.
Further, many of those devices connect to notebooks which have limited power budgets. More efficient use of power means more devices that can be used "on the road" with those systems. It also means we use less fossil fuel and produce less CO2. All-in-all, a win-win scenario.
"... the fact Firewire 800 was even released, and supported on non-Apple devices pretty much proves that."
A typo? I have a 17" MacBook Pro that supports FW800 just fine.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
True, but they're more portable. Also, the speed concern isn't really a concern if you're tranferring files over USB.
I have Dell Optiplex office machines that don't have a VGA and PS/2 connections. It only has DVI and USB ports! What the heck? I wanted to hook another machine with an old KVM (without adapters), but it didn't work. I was going to ask my manager to buy one, but they're so expensive for the good brands. Ugh!
I wonder if I can still charge power via these USB-capable KVMs?
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
But I thought Apple used Firewire extensively. There for the iPod and other Apple produced all used Firewi..... oh.... OH!!!
Firewire is popular for audio/video applications not because of DRM, but because FireWire supports high-bandwidth, isochronous usage (in other words -- real audio/video).
2 43/
It was some time before USB could handle high-bandwidth or isochronous transfers and even today it's "pick one" http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25
"Perhaps I would agree if it were only one cable, but it's not. It's often four or five cables. My desktop, for example, has two printers, a scanner, speakers and a monitor, plus the CPU, so that's six power cables and six data cables (including the network)"
So? Work smarter. I have a 17" Apple MacBook Pro on my desk and it has exactly ONE cable connected to it: the MagSafe power connector.
The mouse I use (when I use one) is Bluetooth. My printer and speakers are plugged into an AirPort Express across the room. A 500GB hard drive and the big HP color laser are plugged into an Extreme in the next room, which is where the DSL line comes in and besides, it's quieter that way. Backups to the HD, while slower, are scheduled and occur in the background, so who cares how fast they happen? The network is obviously wireless, and 802.11n due to the Extreme.
I have a USB-powered Canon scanner, and I plug it in when I need to scan something (rare).
The Apple AirPort Extreme and Express are great options, and work on Macs and PCs. I think Belkin also has a wireless USB hub for PCs.
In short, if you have too many wires, then get rid of them.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Looking at the design of the port, it appears to add four more pins exclusively for power. So why the "one voltage" limitation? Even if you reserve one pin for a redundant ground -- the USB data cable and power cable may be connected to two different circuits on the device end -- you should still have enough connection ability to run three voltages in addition to the 5V in the USB data cable.
+12V seems like a no-brainer since the world is overrun with devices designed to operate at 12V. -12V also seems useful, especially if a circuit can use both to get a 24V rail-to-rail effect. Current PC power supplies are not designed to drive a whole lot on the -12V line, but at least the foundation is there.
The question would be what the best third choice would be. Would it cause interference issues to run, say, 90VAC at 400 Hz down the line? Devices that currently use inverters (such as scanners) would be able to drop them, while devices with high voltage demands would be able to use postage-stamp-size circuits to generate an arbitrary AC voltage. Power supplies already use intermediate stages on the way to the final +12, -12, +5, -5, +3.3 array we all know and love, maybe they can just be tapped directly at the intermediate stage.
I can understand the concerns about providing relatively high voltage AC over an easily accessible connector, but if it's properly designed it would be no more dangerous than wall outlets -- and there is generally one of those close to every stationary computer. Obviously laptops running on battery power would be ill-equipped to provide 90VAC, but mostly due to the high draw that would go along with it. When plugged in, their power bricks should be up to the task.
Whatever options are chosen, they should be be based on readily available commodity hardware. This keeps costs down, allowing the spec to attain wide acceptance. Asking current computer owners to spring $20 for a stand-alone power supply looks reasonable if it knocks $10 off the price of every device they attach to it. With just two devices -- printer and scanner for example -- they break even. If they can run other devices off it that do not use USB for data transfer (like monitors), hitting the two-device break-even point would be easily achieved. Then when they move on to the next computer, it will allow them to get rid of the extra box, but still use the peripherals they already have. Nobody would be compelled to buy the "retrofit kit" unless/until they also bought a device that requires it.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
Laptops, for instance, are designed around very limited power budgets. If you plug a 1000 watt USB hair dryer into it, how long are the batteries going to last? A solution I would be in favor of is building lower power peripherals.
The issue is how much nicer it would be to be able to run and charge devices with more than 2.5 watts. I'd love to be able to plug in my music player or cell phone and have it charge up quickly without needing to find or carry more than the plug to my laptop. As it is, my music player takes much too long to charge and my cellphone did not even come with an usb adapter. Even if the device is very low power, you still want to be able to charge it quickly and last a long time. Clutter removal for desktops and the ability to plug in everywhere would be icing on the cake.
The advantages are enough that I already prefer firewire.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
1) It will succeed-no matter how worthless-because it will allow H/W companies to sell us everything again, including new computers and peripherals. S/W companies will find a way to take advantage of it, too.
2) It will succeed-no matter how buggy-because it will be crammed down as many throats as possible, like VISTA.
In sum, it will succeed-no matter how worthless or buggy-because it affords S/W and H/W companies yet another GOLDEN OPPORTUNIY to pump other companies' and ordinary people's bank accounts dry. QED
Sorry to be so cynical. Just finished lobotomizing a U3 "smart" drive to make it usable. Worthless on Linux or FreeBSD, vile POS on Windows. Case in point. =\
If you want your life to be different, live it differently.
Powered USB will not fail. It is already a success - in the Point Of Sale market for which it was intended.
The reason why the USB-IF did not adopt this is because of IBM's patent schticks. Without this issue they probably would have ratified the 12v version for general consumer use. The other voltages would have remained specialty items for the POS industry that normal users would never encounter. The multiple voltage versions make a lot of sense for the tightly integrated and cost-sensitive POS market.
BTW, the designers of USB were not dumb. Sure, they made compromises, but if you started with the same constraints you would have reached more-or-less the same results. Consider the fact that it is impossible to build a $2 firewire mouse.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
I've got a 2.5" external drive case that uses two USB wires. One goes to a standard USB plug on the case, and the other goes to a connector that's just a power socket. Standard USB supports a given amount of power per connector, so this is getting around the limitation by doubling that. (Obviously you need a powered USB hub or direct connection from a computer, not a non-powered hub, and calling the new version "Powered USB" seems like an unfortunate naming collision.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Or if you are not a good programmer than it's much easier to convince her to open her bluetooth interface.
Then you can enumerate all the profiles she supports and transfer the date through the one she is more comfortable with.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Agreed... but I think a balance is necessary - increased power efficiency, but there are some devices and applications that need more power than the standard allows.
A typo? I have a 17" MacBook Pro that supports FW800 just fine.
Not a typo... poster was only referring to the fact that many PC manufacturers don't include add-ons that most people never use. Mac's having this hardware is the norm, for PCs, it is not. For a PC to have it, it means that it is at least gaining some common use.
I think one of the big reasons that Firewire caught on was soley because of DV video cameras. DV is going the way of the dodo within the next 5 years or so to be replaced with disk based and flash based recording systems. When that takes place. Firewire will in my view lose about 3/4 of its market.
Perhaps not on the Mac front, but definitely on the PC front where USB is so much more prevalent except for capturing video. For highspeed HDDs expect eSata solutions to prevail.
If we killed all the hippies, we could balance out any lack of efficiency. I mean, the average hippy wastes how much jet fuel flying around to Canada proclaiming that an expontentionally growing animal hunted by a few groups, who use ALL of it, and kill it in an uncruel fassion (Instant death) is a bad thing?
Oh, and USB will only want to make people go for more efficient solutions.
There are some other reasons why USB was adopted so widely. First off, it was hotplug. All the other ports like PS/2, Serial and Paralell required you to restart your computer if you wanted to change what was plugged in. USB finally allowed you to change devices while the computer was on. Imagine iPods or thumb drives if USB was not hotplug!
The other advantage of USB was that the plug is simple. It's just a rectangle that goes in a rectangular hole. You can't put it in backwards. There are no screws to hold it in. It's very approachable. Unlike serial, paralell or game ports, which look like they belong in the back of the computer and not the front, USBs are safe to put on the front of just about anything. The design of the port itself invites people to use it, rather than scare them away.
These are the other reasons USB is awesome, and also yet more reasons why Powered USB will not work. Adding any sort of extra plug will just make USB scary again. The only way I see powered USB working is if you find a way to transmit that power with a connector that is identical to the existing USB port.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
I'm surprised that there has been no mention of another advantage that Firewire has over USB: daisy-chaining. That means that, when using several devices, far fewer ports are required by any one device, including (usually) a PC. What a pity too, that Powered USB can't aspire to Firewire's superior variable voltage capability.
I have an old USB 1.x hub that I use solely for charging, since I have six USB 2 ports (four in back, two in front) already. Were it not for this purpose, it would be gathering dust in a drawer.
If you are inclined to do a bit of wiring, re-purpose one of the USB connectors that came with your motherboard (since you are probably using those that came installed in your case) and run 5V power through the red and black lines. You now have a standalone charger.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
http://www.mcw.edu/gcrc/cop/powerlines-cancer-FAQ/ toc.html
If the plug can provide only a single one of the voltages it does not mean that devices will run on only one voltage. My prediction is that the device designers will quickly welcome the possibility of removing an transformer ans replacing it by an cheaper DC-DC converter, which can run on any of the three voltages.
This method is also the most efficient, sonce nobody on the host-side can guess what voltage is needed, it is best to take the one which is available easily in your design.
The first keyboard connector for the IBM PC and the XT (the 5 pin DIN) was called, believe it or not, simply a "keyboard connector." Yes, people nowadays erroneously refer to it as an "AT keyboard connector"--but that's only because they're so new to the PC game that they didn't realize that there was a distinct difference between the XT and AT protocols (most of the new keyboards during that turbulent transition had a switch to account for the protocol change). Yes, this distinction is actually explained a bit in his footnote... but still, his sentence is historically incorrect. Here is a link that can explain the protocol difference far better than I can: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/itemsAgain, the implication is that somehow the popular computer (e.g., a "PC") pre-dated the Apple's adoption of the standard whereas the exact opposite is true. It was only after the Macintosh adopted USB that the standard actually took off. Here is a link for a more accurate history of this transition: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/librar y/pa-spec7.html
Now you could build a computer with only two or three kinds of plugs and never have to worry about how to explain to your grandmother what the difference between SCSI and PS/2 is and why she can't plug her new printer into either of them.The author neglects to take into account that although there is only one overarching "USB Protocol" you still need to explain to your grandmother why she needs to use a cable with an "A" port instead of a "B" port or a mini USB 2.0 port, or the Canon USB port.... Still, I agree that this is a great deal better than we had prior to the adoption of USB.
The article itself was generally correct in its assessment of the impact of the USB port on industry. I just take issue with the rewriting of history as I (and I am sure, many of you) were there to witness it firsthand.
It's called Postscript. And JetDirect is the lingua franca of printer interfacing, but you only see that in network printers since it's a network protocol.
Unfortunately, you can't implement either of those technologies easily in a sub $100 printer which does all the processing in the host computer; the bus protocol to the printer is arbitrary at that point anyway, it just has to be able to tell the inkjet heads what to do and to know when to hit you up for more razors, I mean ink.
It's no wonder home/soho printers are a mess. They're just ink sale generators, everything else is secondary.
OTH: Samsung's entry level laser has ethernet and PS Level 3, and it's like $200 and change... spend a little, you get less hassle. No installation disks required for Windows XP, Linux and Mac... you can get a bit better performance though if you load the PPD.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Both USB and Firewire can do DMA. In fact, USB would not even be close to usable with removable hard drives or memory sticks if it didn't. The CPU doesn't get interrupted more often or do significantly more work in bulk transfer modes using either technology.
What USB cannot do, is allow two non-host devices on the bus to talk to each other independant of the computer. All communications are to and from the host. Firewire (as it is related to the similarly capable SCSI standard) does allow that.
What usually makes the difference is that USB can't have conversations in both directions simultaneously (it's half duplex), which means that your bandwidth overall is reduced by response messages going from the host to the device to tell it "OK, send me more data". This reduces the effective bandwidth by about half. With firewire, you implement mass storage like a TCP stream, both sides send acks and updates in parallel at the full advertised speed. (This is assuming the firewire bus does not contain too many people trying to talk at once; it is still a common-bus with device-initiate which requires arbitration and back-off)
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I once successfully interfaced with a girl device but then the girl device sent an interrupt. I didn't understand it and was too busy to service it anyway so I dropped it off from the queue. The next thing I know the girl device disappeared from the bus.