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HP Stops Selling Printers, Starts Selling Prints
An anonymous reader writes "HP has launched a new line of business printers but there's a big catch — you won't be able to buy one. For the first time in history, the company will make customers purchase printing services, rather than the product itself. At its biggest printer launch since the LaserJet in 1984, HP's new business-class Edgeline printers will only be available through a managed services contract. Pricing will be per page, depending on the quality of the printout. Edgeline technology is said to be so ink-efficient that if HP were to sell these printers, they would never match the money they make from consumables (cartridges etc) now."
So, they're not stopping selling printers, they've just released a new line of contracted/leased service printers. Nice work.
I don't see that HP will stop selling printers. They just won't sell this one. You can still buy other HP printers, though. But the Edgeline does seem like a nice printer, though. $50 says that in 5 years, every office will have one (that they own).
... who says they need Carly Fiornia to make stupid decisions...
There is a war going on for your mind.
Then why don't they just sell the printer at astronomical price to differentiate this new line of printers from HP's consumer level printers?
Or is that included in the per page price?
Why not just up the price of the printer or just not lower the price of the carts? (or lower them less than the manufacturing cost is lowered).
Ex: Old cart cost $100, but was $5 to make. New cart is $97 but costs $1 to make.
34486853790
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..why can't they just sell the printers and then charge like $1000 per cartridge? Don't they kind of follow that model now anyway (i.e. $150 dollar printer that needs $300 toner cartridge)?
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
"Edgeline technology is said to be so ink-efficient that if HP were to sell these printers, they would never match the money they make from consumables (cartridges etc) now." So they've innovated their way out of their own ability to gouge their customers? My heart bleeds...
Many businesses have been getting printers they way for a long time. The only difference is that this time it's the printer manufacturer that's getting the service contract, and not some third party company. In my opinion, this makes perfect sense. The company who made the product is probably the one most qualified to fix and service it. Granted, you probably won't be able to shop around, because if you want that printer, there's no competition, but you'll still be able to compare with other printer brands.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
So if you inflate your ink costs so high, you can justify giving printers away?
All printers are sold at a loss. Money is made on ink cartridges. This decision just carries it to the logical extreme.
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
Yeah, communism rules comrade. There are tons of North Korean printer companies producing printers better than Edgeline that you can buy, not rent.
Seriously, HP did the R&D to make this thing so they dictate the terms. Don't like the leasing arrangement? Don't lease one.
So, now they can charge $50 for a print, rather than $50 for a cartridge. Saweeeet.
"Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
I've handled printing/copy contracts and also purchases.
Service is great if you don't want the headache of maintaining the equipment.
Products are great if you don't want want to wait on someone to fix it.
This is leasing vs. purchasing. It's more expensive to lease, but allows for less headaches.
To each their own. I think it's a smart financial move with HP. I don't purchase the printers required to print my photography prints.
This seems to be somewhat related to the new Memjet technology that was just released a few weeks ago. See http://www.texyt.com/silverbrook+memjet+technology +available+desktop+photo+wideformat+hp+edgeline+co mparison or http://www.memjet.com/
of this company here:/ 22/1241222
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03
Basically the ultrawide print head and instataneous drying times, etcetera. Any confirmation?
..of selfish assholes. No, it's okay, don't try to better society, you have a right to earn as much money as you possibly can.
Pricks.
actually he said that corporatism will fail for the same reason communism failed, he wasn't promoting communism at all.
And capitalism can fall into corporatism pretty easily if companies get the idea they can loan everything instead of sell it.
His points are valid, even if his argument lacks weigh (for example, I own everything of "mine" but the structure I live in - even that will change, minus mortgage, in a month or too)
34486853790
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You cannot use two -ing words in a row like that :) You have to say "stopping to sell", not "stopping selling". hmmmmmm How old are you? :)
COMPANY: Our technology is so good we can't even sell it. But of course if you are willing to pay a premium we might consider it....
COSTOMER: Oh, wow. This shit has to be good if they can't sell it. We have to see if HP will sell it to _us_. We'll even offer them to pay extra.
COMPANY: Suckers...!
Reminds of when I went shopping for cars with my uncle in Odessa, Ukraine. This guy was selling used cars. At the end of the lot he had a car covered under a sheet. My uncle asks, what's model you have there. He said "That's not for sale." He then proceeded to tell us how that was a special model blah blah blah. Then my uncle talked him into selling it, payed extra for the 'special' features. Then as we drove away it, the salesman took the sheet and put it on the car right next to it. Seems like HP is doing the same thing here...
Why free enterprise DOES work:
Another company will come out with a similarly efficient printer that they WILL sell, and HP won't get squat.
+0 Meh
HP is allowed to sell their goods any way they wish. That is capitalism at work.
The catch is, so are their competitors.
How long before you see a Lexmark with this exact same technology at work? Do you think they'll go on a services model? Do you think absolutely everyone in the market will? Even the guys in China?
And when someone finally does start selling the same printer technology rather than leasing it, what will HP have to do to keep up?
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I own just about everything, computers, cars, TV, Stereo except my house the bank owns it right now. What you fail to understand about capitalism is when HP's competitors create similar printers and sell them to the public HP will have to sell their's to be competitive. HP is simply trying a different business strategy. Right now paying per page with HP might be cheaper then the cost to own and maintain a printer, this is why HP is able to do this.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
Do I care how its cheaper? Already in many large companies Pitney Bowes has some kind of volume printing deal where they own and operate the devices out on the floor. Beats the hell out of device support on my dime every time something goes wrong with these fragile mechanical devices.
I'm in IT, and we measure all costs per page, managed or unmanaged. Most people don't even think of cost over the life of the printer, and choose inkjets because they are 1/5 the price of laser, and spend much more over the life of the printer buying ink.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
I noticed that the product launch was in China, and that had me thinking...
The chinese are notorious for buying something, reverse engineering it, and within a period of time having a duplicate chinese version for sale. Maybe HP is trying to prevent that from happening?
It wants Xerox's strategy of leasing a 914 and charging per click acknowledged.
Xerox has this program too. They even use a spam-like domain name for their program.
I am sure some will see my suggestion as trying to cut HP's air supply. I love to say that that's not evil at all.
and milk them with print-on-demand type subscription services!
"Why capitalism doesnt work."
Wow, if that's not a commie comment, I don't know what is.
Actually capitalism clearly works. I live in this place called America and we've been using capitalism for awhile. It's almost old news.
Competition will see to it that there are other forms of printer contracts or whatever. If there is a need for it, someone will step in and make money.
BTW, This is slashdot, people make money here. They probably own lots of crap.
The only thing I don't own outright are my home (I rent) and my car (until I pay it off). And, as far as those go, ownership is 90% posession, so I at I own 90% percent :)
Capitalism is a system based on the base greed of men (and women). It's not "work hard and see reward"; it's "you want something, you work to get it".
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
In communism the state owns everything. Therefore you own 0%, which is a much lower rate than under coporate capitalism.
In communism, one owner owns everything. We call this a monopoly. Under coporate capitalism, I can choose between several coporations to sell my soul to. Even better, I can choose to sell just parts of my soul to various coporations instead of being force to sell 100% of my soul to one state monopoly.
If you print a lot of color and can afford it, get a color laser printer. It's significantly cheaper to operate than any ink jet.
Regardless of your technology choice, don't purchase an HP.
There are lots of excellent choices out there. I'm not sure why you'd choose HP.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Because HP printers have gone in the fucking toilet and I'm not buying any more of them. We already have a Xerox copier/printer on a lease agreement, so if HP offered me the chance to scream and yell at them instead of IT (a department by which I am employed) I would be interested. I'd love to ditch this HP Laserjet 5550n behind me and to the left for something with Duplex. HP stopped making duplex add-ons for their printers several years ago in order to make shitpiles more money. If you fear you might one day need Duplex, you now have to buy it up-front, or else you end up having to buy a whole new printer to get duplex later. I am absolutely done buying HP printers unless they end this serious case of cranial-rectal inversion.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
No debes usar la forma "ando" o "iendo" para dos palabras que hay consecutivas. Debes usar la forma infinitiva (-ar, -er,o -ir). Por ejemplo, no dice "parando vendiendo". Debes decir "parando vender"! Cuantos años tienes, amigo???
Here's a new idea. Why not make a printer, and sell it for what it costs to make, plus fair profit for the company? You could even use this same wacky business model for the ink! I know it doesn't quite follow the over-simplified model of selling a printer at just enough to cover your costs, then soak the end user with grossly overpriced consumables because that ensures a source of renewable income, thus making the your budget spreadsheet nice and pretty, but I think people have made it work in the past. Like every company that ever sold anything before the 1970's.
I realize this is the new model that many manufacturers are using since Polaroid started giving away cameras in the 1970's so they could sell the film at insanely high margins, but that's a seemingly short term business model. Eventually, people get wise to your plan, and you start pissing off your loyal customers, who realize full well that they are taking it up the pooper. I wish some company would come out and break this business model. I, as an informed consumer, would pay a little more for a printer if I knew I wasn't getting ripped off on the ink. I can't be the only one out there.
-Arthur
Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
They'd bump up their current processor line by 10x the speed to kill off the competition and then they'd trickle the rest out as slowly as possible milking it for everything it's worth. Also you are under the mistaken impression that google runs on compute power. It really runs on information availability, that is fat pipes and tons of memory. If anyone develops AI first it will be the ones managing lots of data not the ones with raw compute power. Google is in a sense already a 'primitive AI' in that you can sit in front of your computer and with a little training use it as an oracle.
Reminds of when I went shopping for cars with my uncle in Odessa, Ukraine. This guy was selling used cars. At the end of the lot he had a car covered under a sheet. My uncle asks, what's model you have there. He said "That's not for sale." He then proceeded to tell us how that was a special model blah blah blah. Then my uncle talked him into selling it, payed extra for the 'special' features. Then as we drove away it, the salesman took the sheet and put it on the car right next to it. Seems like HP is doing the same thing here...
Can't say I'm surprised. I've spent a lot of time in Ukraine because I was engaged once to a girl who lived there, but we broke up before getting married. Anyway, I've been to Odessa and of all the places I've been to in Ukraine, probably the most dishonest, greediest people I ever met in Ukraine lived there.
leasing their 914 instead of selling it was the decision that catapulted them into the Fortune 50. Few offices could afford to buy a 914 (at many thousands), but leasing one for a few hundred, and paying a few extra for those extra prints was fine.
Isn't this essentially the same as what copy centers @ Staples and other companies do? I would think that going to service like this would be better because it's done within two days, no need to ship or anything.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
Maybe the problem with the thing is that it takes significant maintenance support. Xerox copiers and printers back in the selenium drum era were leased, because they cost so much and required considerable skilled maintenance. If this new technology has that problem, a lease-only approach at introduction makes sense.
I'd be willing to bet that they have it in mind to avoid the competition to future models that this model represents.
For example, I'd have a quite nice office class networked, duplexing, HP laserjet 4si printer nestled under my desk at home. It's a 200lb beast that keeps on printing. The $100 cartridges last a year. I got it for $200 off ebay and $50 for a service kit. To buy something similar new would cost me $4-$5k. I expect that it will keep going for years.
Just as test equipment manufacturers know about their old scopes, HP knows that one of it's biggest competitors is not other printer manufacturers, but the installed base of high quality, high reliability, maintainable workhorse printers they sold in the past.
Leasing printing services rather than selling printers means they never suffer from this new model surviving 15 years down the road, competing with their new new model.
Evil people are out to get you.
As usual, the /. crowd knows nothing of which they speak, yet they shoot their mouths off anyways.
Seems to me that this sort of lease/service agreement is exactly what many medium and large businesses want, and already do for other large items (vehicles, etc).
Consider:
The only difference is that this time it's the printer manufacturer that's getting the service contract, and not some third party company.
Woe be unto the OEM that pisses on their channel.
...means HP still has to offer "a deal" to customers, otherwise Xerox or another company will take the customer's money.
If the cost per print is good I thin k it has a chance. Our copiers are on a "per copy" supplies/maintenence plan (At work we pay our copier co. per the number of copies a month, then the toner drum, maintenece, etc. are provided just by a phone call.)
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Coffee still hasn't soaked in. I read that as edgein printers. Of course, both will have the same effect on you.
Because most people won't bother to search out the cost per page printed over the life of the printer. They'll see one printer for $599 and one for $1599 and buy the cheap one. It's the same principle as the "Bad security products drive out good security products" story that posted a couple hours ago.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
Their calculators have become a laughing stock. The lucky folks who still have a functional 12c from the days of old (early 80s) will enjoy them for decades more to come. I'd sooner use a bag of rocks than a 12c built during/after the Lewis Platt (successor: Carly) regime.
While this announcement is for a business printer, expect this trend to continue. Cheap printers are a commodity, so squeezing pennies out of the market will eventually lead to "virtual printers" or somesuch idiocy. Smart people are willing to pay for quality, someone just needs to offer a quality printer.
HP isn't the company to do it. Not any more.
Yeah, right.
That's news you can use! Thanks Zonk, and thanks for the oh-so-accurate headline. Come on, the only news here is that HP is so late to the game when almost every other big player has offered both options for years.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
---In communism the state owns everything. Therefore you own 0%, which is a much lower rate than under coporate capitalism.
I agree completely with the first part. However, I do not agree with the "much lower rate" comment.
One may start out with a much lower rate of "other-ownership" with corporate capitalism, but once the ball starts rolling, the ownership climbs back to the top. Instead of having one entity owning everything, you have a few companies (which usually go back to bankers and loaning institutions) racking back up the money and lost property.
In Communism, you never had it. In corporate capitalism, you once had it but are now "renting" it. Either way, you dont have it.
---In communism, one owner owns everything. We call this a monopoly.
And that owner is the government. In non-corrupt commune based countries, that means it belongs to the people.
---Under coporate capitalism, I can choose between several coporations to sell my soul to.
That sounds like an oligopoly. My point is that once things are under the rental agreement, it removes Ownership, which was paramount to being free.
---Even better, I can choose to sell just parts of my soul to various coporations instead of being force to sell 100% of my soul to one state monopoly.
Then, I guess this is an exercise on determining either corporations or the state is worse. I'm just dead set that rules set forth indicate that they're equal.
I'm ok with sending finished photography work to a service bureau, but for intermediate prints, I really need to have my own printer. After 20 years of HP printers, my next one'll be Epson...
TFA didn't say that, and I don't see any source for it. What TFA did say was that it will "lower colour operating costs by up to 30 percent".
30% isn't exactly enough to make inkjet cartridge sales worthless, now is it?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
This would be perfect for law firms, where I have to enter a client ID every time I print.
The firm now has a free printer, and per page costs are easily billed to the client.
Wonder if this amazing technology will ever trickle down to consumer printers (that suck expensive ink like a crack head)...
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Better society? Are you kidding me? You're expecting a printer company to go out and better society? Before you start frothing at the mouth at the 'capitalist pigs' trying to make money on their products, consider this: if creating these printers makes them no money, HP will not manufacture them at all. It's not in their interest to offer a product that will put them out of business.
Yes, it's possible that the efficiency of the printer would cause HP to lose money from ink sales of cartridges for this printer. But did it ever occur to you that such efficient technology might cost a lot more to develop and manufacture? The company needs to recoup costs for these aspects too. Like it or not, they are not creating these printers out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it in order to run a business. Maybe someone else will take it upon him or herself to create some magical free printer for the masses, but I doubt it.
Lastly, these products don't seem designed to be used in the home. That isn't the market that HP is after. When you purchase a contract for one of these machines, it's not like buying a printer--it's like buying a miniature Kinko's that you put in your office and pay as you go for the service. You don't even have to maintain it, if I understand the article correctly. HP does it for you. Sounds like a deal that many companies would be interested in, but if they're not? Nobody's going to make them buy it. There are plenty of printers for sale on the market. Customer demand will determine whether or not this business model is successful--if someone buys it, there must be someone out there who wants it.
I want a print-out of something so I can mark it up, scribble, etc. If I want the level of quality this thing suggests, I'll take it to a bureau and get it professionally printed and bound.
It also reminds me of an office I worked in back-in-the-day where the copier had an odometer and Xerox charged based on the monthly count; it was cheaper to have a typist re-type the one page or two page document 3 or 4 times. If we needed a lot of copies, which wasn't often, we might take it to the local Kinkos, depending on what we wanted. Xerox eventually canceled the contract because it was more expensive to send a guy to read the meter than what they were billing. Funny thing is, they let us keep the copier.
The one pin dot matrix, ink refills are cheap too.
Xerox has a system that charges businesses per page... It's called their document center, we have one where I work... and you don't own the printers, etc... and you get yelled at by the boss if you print anything in color... Imo, This is really just HP attempting to play catchup. --Ray
http://www.beanleafpress.com
--But, but, but, Mr. Whipple, you always squeeze the Charmin!
...or whatever.
--Not any more! Now I only squeeze the New Improved Professional Charmin Plus! It's more squeezable than ever! And makes my butt smell even nicer than before! Same Charmin you've always loved only now it's different!
It's not news if HP is following a very common business model for one particular printer in their line, and it's not news if (in fact) they are using a standard (and annoying) advertising ploy.
And what, precisely, do you think HP will do the first time a competitor offers to sell a printer with similar characteristics?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
So HP is getting into the market that Canon and Xerox and Lexmark and Toshiba and Kyocera and Sharp and and and are already in? I suppose the interesting deal is that HP would be doing the printer leasing direct from the factory instead of having a local leasing and servicing middleman do it. But it's not like the business model is revolutionary.
Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
Robert Heinlein alreay had this idea with the "Shipstone", which was basically an infinite power source. The company that discovered it wouldn't sell them, you had to rent them. People who tried to reverse engineer them got sucked into the black hole that was inside.
But, Bob didn't invent the idea. It was invented by James Watt, the man that didn't invent the steam engine, but who did popularize it and make it practical. He also made you pay for one of his engineers to go with the engine. This is why the lead engineer from "Star Trek" TOS is Scottish (Scotty).
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
That is dumb; everything you listed is temporary, including the house and even the dirt below.
For a minor example, that computer you *own* is aging, not because it cannot do its function, but because it will be forced to upgrade, obsoleting it. Next, digital radio and TV. Sure, for now it is OK because you, we, want a faster machine anyway. And for a major example, your ever-increasing property taxes and maintenance will never, ever, ever let you pay your home off, completely (it is set up that way). In fact, taxes will outpace you and force you to sell at some point (read about it all over the country). and yes, maybe a short-term profit, but you have to live somewhere.
Part of Corporatism, I think, is the idea that they really own everything, the wealth, and the methods of making it. That is what they do, and why many cannot find jobs.
This means that really, you don't own squat, just temporary comfort. The only thing you think you own is the things that allow them to make money off you (A car only useful to go mostly to/from work, a car radio, a stereo, a TV to sell ads, playstation to sell games, dvd player to sell dvds, whatever). It pisses them off if you use these tools to do what you want; you will pay dearly for that luxury.
But I agree with the rest of your comments on the reason that capitalism is a double edge sword, someone could use the market to correct the situation, except that the patents in place will protect their monopoly, unless possibly attacked very carefully. Do you not think another company could not build a superior printer, cheaper and better, to HP if they wished?
Hopefully I can get more attention here. Can anybody recommend another site for news like Slashdot used to be? This one is becoming worse every day (besides digg and reddit)
While I'm no fan of post-Hewlett and Packard HP, this is the only business model I can see that encourages the printer manufacturer to use ink more efficiently. If they make their money on ink/toner, then they have an incentive to make their printers as inefficient as they can without driving customers to their competitors. Given HP's leadership in the (business) market, they can get away with charging a premium and being less efficient.
I'd wait to see what their pricing looks like before throwing around terms like greed and evil. Although given their recent track record, I'm putting away the rose-colored glasses.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Let's go back to the ink efficient days of the DeskJet 400C and fuck these contract based service packages.
Why don't you just buy a laser printer?
I can't believe anyone with a clue is still using ink-based printers, with lasers being the price they are now. You can get a fairly inexpensive Samsung or maybe even an HP laser printer for $100 - 150, sometimes on sale for under 100, and with a full toner cartridge get thousands of pages out of it.
They're so far superior to ink-based printers that I just don't understand why anyone wouldn't use them. The only thing they don't do, or that you have to pay a significant amount extra for, is color. But really, for the occasional color print you can keep one of those more-expensive-than-liquid-gold ink printers around if you really need it. Or pay the $250 or $300 to get a color laser (and probably step up to something that'll do duplexing).
Inkjet printers need to die, as a technology. The only niche market they deserve to keep is for photo printing for the terminally impatient and un-quality-conscious folks who can't or don't want to drive down to their local CVS/WalMart and use a lightjet.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
That has got to be the worst, most misleading headline you've managed to create.
You're not just an idiot, you're a fucking idiot. There's a distinction.
Perhaps this is HP's response to the full-page-width MemJet technology mentioned earlier on ./?
Many companies such as xerox and canon have been doing this for a long time. I work at staples, and in our copy and print centers we have printers that are leased from both companies. These printers have an "odometer" that tells how many prints have been done from that machine. We then get billed for what we use it for. On the flip side of that coin, canon and xerox are responsible for providing us with ink, and servicing the machines should they fail.
Staples has done a cost/profit analysis, and has found that this gives them much better profit margins than owning their own printers. Likewise, it increases the profit margins for canon and xerox as well. Both companies win.
HP is just now jumping onto this bandwagon, probably because they see that they are missing out on quite a lucrative market.
I have an HP printer (Color Laserjet 2550L), and I have to say it will be my last printer from HP regardless of what they do in the future. I cannot install the driver software on my wife's computer because the installation routine cannot actually find the printer over the network. On my computer (under linux) it works perfectly, until that is you reach the arbitrary count imposed on the consumables (in this case the fuser cartridge). Then it refuses to print anything, including the information page showing how much life is left in the various components (I can't interrogate it through the software, because I couldn't install it!!!). Of course, this happens on a Sunday afternoon, and none of the local suppliers have a spare cartridge. When the current set of cartridges run out, the printer is going in the bin - the cost of replacing the cartridges will more or less cover the cost of a new printer. Any recommendations anyone?
And you can't come!
Thanks to the excellent Linux support by the HPLIP Project I am faithful to HP, at least for the time being. I am quite impressed that pretty much all features of my all-in-one printer have been working for years, without any major glitches.
I have seen the Windows HP drivers (quite a while ago) and have to say that at the time they were far too intrusive for my liking and I would not have used the HP software under Windows. So I'd buy an HP printer for Linux, but if I were using Windows I'd probably compare lots of makes first and my choice might be different.
---American "capitalism" is about as close to the capitalist ideal as soviet communism was to the communist ideal. That is to say, not very. For starters, america has ever stronger and further reaching patent and copyright monopoly laws - despite propagandists describing these as intellectual "property", they are antithetical to real free-market capitalism at least.
You know what's sad? Most Americans wouldnt get that. Those of us who grew up during that time saw the footage of the breadlines and whatnot. We think communism as 2 countries: Russia and Cuba.
---And given America's current state, it's painfully clear to an outside observer (I'm in the EU) that, no, American style capitalism doesn't work - America's heading for a fall, and it'll be a big one (the trick for us europeans would be not getting dragged down with you idiots).
It started when I was in economics class in the university (last semester) when I asked the hard questions. "Why do corporations continually destroy the environment?" My answer was that the environment wasnt factored in gains/losses on the corporate bottom line. In order for the local environment to matter, one would have to charge for breathable air, potable water, and such requirement for life.
How to avoid the future collapse: Do as China does. Build your own infrastructure and build your own factories and rely on external places less. If the USA does collapse, the EU could become the next United States (just not "of America").
I have an old LaserJet 4+ that I rescued from a dumpster for free. A little time spent cleaning years worth of impacted office dirt out of it (no repair parts needed) and it was working like new again. A 3rd-party refilled toner cartridge for it cost me less than $50 at Office Depot and I've been printing on this same cartridge for nearly five years now and it is still going strong.
Yes, the old LJ4+ is a bit on the slow side, but print quality is excellent and the machine is a juggernaut.
... IKON and other companies have been offering these services on big printers for years.
Businesses like this kind of outsourced service, because they don't need to do anything. You don't need to track depreciation & other things. You don't need qualified internal IT staff to fix printers. For any problem (low toner, service, parts, etc) you call the provider who takes care of everything with an SLA guarrantee. You just get a bill for pages printed.
"Bull. They realized they can't win against cartridge refills. So this is what they're doing to stop refillers."
Only on slashdot would poor prints and fucked up printheads be considered a "win". Sometimes you all are too cheap for your own good.
I really don't understand the objection to this. Anyone who works with printers these days knows that this is already a standard business model for companies like Xerox, Minolta, etc. who sell laser printer/scanner/copiers and charge per page. the per page cost usually includes toner, maintenance, service, and it's usually very reasonable. I've seen per page contracts as low as .3 cents a page.
HP finally caught up with the bandwagon. and is trying to jump on. This isn't new, this isn't revolutionary, the only thing revolutionary about this printer is the method of printing. which i don't know if it will have a big market. It'd have to be competitive to our colour laser Minolta... in both price and performance/quality.
And well, it seems my opinions are not valued here. I dont like communism, nor do I like capitalism, for both the very same reasons.
Both eventually lead to the reduction of my ownership. Communism just doesnt play pretend, and never grant ownership.
Capitalism in our country lead to corporatism. This in turn has lead to the rental of many objects, including our very house, vehicle, and other smaller items. When you cant pay house rents, where do you place your "stuff"? Thats right.. your car. But more likely these days, if you default on one thing, interest goes up drastically so you cant pay for anything else either.
Corporate capitalism leads to the same result that communism leads to: the loss of ownership of vital resources.
---... even if his argument lacks weigh (for example, I own everything of "mine" but the structure I live in - even that will change, minus mortgage, in a month or too)
True that my argument does lack weight. I dont do in depth research for a slashdot post, nor would I expect anybody else to do the same. I would have just hoped that others of the "intelligent" community could see eye-to-eye and argue on a fair platform rather than -1'ing me to obscurity. Just goes to show that Sturgeons Law is true, even when talking about people.
I do appreciate it when you do understand my (not very well explained) point. Thank you.
It's known as a recto-cranial inversion. What, do you have your head up your ass or something?
I've worked in a place where Xerox did all the printing and I'm pretty sure everything was billed to the department with a page count.
They did all the printers, all the copiers and had an on-site copy shop that could handle all your more complex printing and binding needs.
You actually, personally witnessed this?
That's awesome.
The comedian Steve Martin wrote The Cruel Shoes sketch about this, but I figured it was hyperbole.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
Or is that included in the per page price?
Corporate bean counters will quickly catch on if this printer is more expensive to run than the competition.
This will limit the price per page. Free market economy has natural balances.
The truth shall set you free!
.... I can choose between several coporations to sell my soul to.......
You can also choose to become part owner of many corporations. Choose the right one and you might even get rich. On the other hand you could lose your life savings. Your soul should still be OK though. I happened to buy a tiny sliver of Apple just before Steve came back. I figured I could afford to lose a few hundreds dollars when their shares were below $15. Now I wish I had taken a bigger chance and bought more.
Now, with the Internet you can do some research into most corporations and the their top people. Pick the right one and you may become a beneficiary of this "Corporatism". Communism gives nobody such an opportunity to get a piece of the action.
All theory is gray
So this is what they're doing to stop refillers.
This won't stop refills. It just means the refills will be Epson or Cannon instead of HP.
The truth shall set you free!
They currenlty use the "razor" business model where you sell the item at a loss and make the money on the consumables.
There is an alternative.
You sell the item at a profit, and make money on the item. This is called selling stuff. It's been highly profitable for quite a lot of companies. I believe only last week I bought a table based on this innovative concept.
Only on slashdot would poor prints and fucked up printheads be considered a "win". Sometimes you all are too cheap for your own good.
Having a choice to have cheap poor prints is the issue. I buy my black ink at $14 per Pint, not $28 per 28 mL. When the print quality is not noticable after 5 refills, I can chose to put in a new cart. The point being I have a choice.
Screwing up a printer is not an issue. In the above 5 refills example I spent less than $14 instead of $28 * 5. The savings has already paid for the next printer and then some. My last printer failure was not due to refills. It was due to use and age. That printer had over 100 refills run through it. The savings in ink is enough to buy a very nice laptop. I simply wore out the drive belt. Refills are only partialy to blame as I felt free to print more proofs of my work. It was the use of the printer, not the brand of ink that led to the failure.
Some Slashdotters like to choose to plug money pits and stop throwing money in them.
The truth shall set you free!
some huge company comes to them and says "We want to buy the printers so we can depreciate the cost of the physical asset." Of course the cost of replacement parts will be astronomical...
But by that time, they are locked in a 3 year plan with minimum pages per month.
Rental agreements factor out the 'free' in free-market.
music companies owns and sell the fact that you "listen"
now printing companies owns and sell the fact that you "print"
soon, bathroom companies gonna owns and sell the fact that you "shit" ?
People keep saying that but I have yet to see it. On the last two printers I bought (one an Epson and one a Canon), the original cartridge lasted as long as the replacement cartridges. Maybe they only do the 1/2 cartridge trick on the low-end Walmart printers?
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Sorry, you forgot about patents. HP will try to sue any similarly efficient printer. Maybe they win, maybe they lose, but a huge burden anyway. No free enterprise.
"Edgeline technology is said to be so ink-efficient that if HP were to sell these printers, they would never match the money they make from consumables (cartridges etc) now."
Got a link for this? I fail to see how an ink-efficient printer would affect their current business model. If anything it would improve their margins. Let's say the edgeline uses 50% less ink than other printers, simply put 50% less ink in the edgeline cartridges and charge the same price for them, problem solved.
I think we're all aware that current pricing structures for printer cartridges is a joke, it has little or no basis in what the cartridges actually cost to manufacture, so it's not like an edgeline printer would be some disruptive force in the marketplace.
Not really the same at all. HP is going to start selling printing services. They'll still own the printer and charge you for each page you print. It's no different from leasing a car and paying a surcharge on mileage. Music companies, on the other hand, don't lease you equipment. They claim to be selling you something, but then try to tell you what you can and can't do with it after you purchased it.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
Not a new idea, U.S. Robots and Mechanical Men, Inc. for example, did not sell robots, only leased them.
A printer may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A printer must print the jobs given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A printer must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
That reminds me of the Stone of Scone, as related by a Scottish friend:
When the English were pillaging the Scottish countryside, they came across a fierce Scottish clan.
"You can take our wives, rape our women, take our children, burn our lands," they said, "But please don't take the Stone of Scone!"
The English looked up to the top of the hill and saw the massive Stone of Scone. They shouted jubilantly, "The Stone of Scone is ours FTW!" and carted it back to England.
As soon as they were out of sight the clan elders called out, "Quick! Roll up another Stone of Scone!"
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
With the Indigo line of "digital offset" printers?
Not a fan of those. Output was nowhere near true offset. The color was ok (I used the right ICC profiles, CYMK, > 300dpi, InDesign 2 project, etc.) but I have a feeling the service bureau either didn't calibrate the printer correctly or didn't know what they were doing.
I wonder what HP plans to do differently here.
Nothing is inexplicable; only unexplained -Tom Baker, Doctor Who
Now you're stupid if you RTFS.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Technically, under communism, means of production are owned by the workers. I can't help the fact that there has never been a truly communist state. Just like there has never been a truly capitalist state.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
If you buy a printer and pay the per-print costs then clearly HP wants the comsumables to cost more (== more revenue for them) and that is pretty much the business model with cheap inkjets - low selling price, gouge them with ink prices. When HP sells prints, the per-print costs come out of their pocket and they are motivated to reduce those costs. Thus it would not be suprising to see these being ink efficient.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
It is not based on greed.
'Want' is not 'greed'.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Oh, so HP has a patent on printer efficiency now? What are you, a moron? Any legitimate company that is remotely capable of competing in the printer marketplace will have no problem successfully defending themselves in court over such a spurious and utterly unlikely lawsuit. I don't even know why I bother replying to such a brain dead AC-POST*.
Free Enterprise > Capitalism > Communism > You
* Anonymous Coward Piece Of Shit Troll, Patent Pending
+0 Meh
zeroth law.
"A printer may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Overall beautiful city by the Black Sea, but has some of the nastiest people I have ever met (my uncle doesn't live there anymore...)
Wrong. Capitalism gets incorrectly associated with all kinds of nonsense, just like Socialism and Communism. If you actually look into it, most things people think are capitalism are something else entirely. (Usually corporatism)
In capitalism "profit" is an abnormal condition, and only enjoyed temporarily through innovation (market or technology). Why? Because there are other market participants that will put you out of business with a cheaper product it you are charging too much or have shitty quality. People put it down because the rewards go to the innovators. Innovation is hard work, emphasis on the work.
And to answer the obvious rebuttal:
No. That is monopoly or oligarchy, which are characteristics of corporatism. There are very few examples of capitalism in history, and none today larger than a neighborhood scope.
Pessimists.net - as if life wasn't depressing enough.
Yeah, my Samsung came with a starter cartridge like that, but the 'real' cartridge -- the one reportedly good for at least 3k pages -- didn't cost more than a brand-name ink refill for my old piece of shit Lexmark IJ. I'd have to go back and figure out exactly what I paid, but it was definitely under $50, purchased online.
So I agree you should factor the cost of a new toner into the purchase of any of those inexpensive printers, but since you get so many more pages out of a single toner cartridge, it's not quite the "razors and blades" business model that they've been doing with ink; or at least it's at a much, much slower rate.
Fifty bucks every few years (I rarely do more than a thousand pages a year, and probably not even close to that, a few hundred usually) is nothing compared to what I used to spend on ink (mostly because the damn cartridges would dry up and I'd have to replace them before they were spent whenever I wanted to print something). I was getting a new cartridge every six - nine months or so with the Lexmark.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
You should try being a printer technician some time. The number of clogged print heads due to non-brand ink was enormous.(1) I rarely saw a warrented printer with our ink clogged.* There's a reason the ink is cheap, and it's not just because it doesn't have our name on it.
*Usually it was something else, including simply not maintaining the printer (yes printers need to be maintained, just like everything else).
(1) There was also the mess it made on the platen as well.
You lease the thing, and they fix it when it breaks. Because you need it. Then,
they take it away when you're done with it. Perhaps they upgrade it to a newer
version during the contract when they stop supporting that model. Biz as usual.
More like HP wants to take on Xerox.
The only thing I care about is if this means I won't be seeing a print driver for my Photosmart 7350 for Vista 32 or 64 bit. As it stands I use a workaround but the workaround denies me the user of the card readers that are built into the printer. -_-
If you were offended by anything I said... No, I'm not sorry. Please lighten up.
So, you pay per page, much as you do now when you lease a copier.
And since the summary was wrong about HP stopping the sale of printers, this is really a non event.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The number of clogged print heads due to non-brand ink was enormous.(1) I rarely saw a warrented printer with our ink clogged.*
To tell the truth, I have limited my refills to printers with integrated printheads such as the HP722c and the HP950. I have heard the horror stories and know enough to avoid most of the pitfalls. On of the pitfalls is the HP950 for example remembers the last 2 cartridge serial numbers. Puttin a refilled cart right back in will not reset the estimated ink level. The solution is to rotate a stock of 3 cartridges. Keep 1 new cart on hand in the event one dies or you need a super quality print.
1) There was also the mess it made on the platen as well.
I've never had that problem. That is usualy an issue with overfilled cartridges that drool. HP carts work under a spring driven partial vacuum. I fill them, then draw the air bubble out of the cartridge through the printhead setting the partial vacuum. I've had no issues with printhead drool. It's all related to knowing how they work and knowing what you are doing. Drilling a hole and squirting in some ink is not the way to do it.
The truth shall set you free!
I guess in the same way that 'need' is not 'necessity', sure. I am speaking of want as a base urge; wanting some for pure emotional reasons. Like 'I don't need a new car but I want a new car'. I'm not talking about want as in 'I want to go to the doctor becasue I'm sick'.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Bad drivers across the board. I don't know of another printer company whose drivers want to run as resident programs on your PC.
The most expensive cost per page.
Poor OS X support.
Dumb printer engines that force the rendering be done on the computer.
Lack of postscript engines on all but their very expensive printers.
Inkjet printers that spend more time clogged than printing. Oh, and a cleaning cycle designed to use ink, not clean the printers.
DRM'd printer cartridges that enforce the "no fill" rule.
It's pretty well a given that at one time (more than 10 years ago), HP was the leader. But when Carly and her crew decided that making ink was a better business than making printers, the quality fell into the "suck like a pornstar" category.
Today, technically illiterate people buy them because they heard of the name.
It's like HP computers. So awful that people would actually rather a dell than the crap. HP laptops... where each new generation is worse than the last.
What an amazing company. I'm hoping the chinese will buy them so they can back into a legitimate business.
Anybody at least moderately
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Typical Euro-trash babbling. America is doomed! Doomed I say! Yet America still sustains a minimum of 3-4% GDP growth per year. Far in excess of the 1% in Europe. America also has employment rates that are near full. In fact 11 million illegal migrant workers wouldn't be here if the jobs weren't here. Yet in Europe the age group of 18-30 has unemployment of nearly 20%!! And country wide unemployment near 10-12% depending on which euro-trash country you are looking at. Racial segregation is a dividing force and has led to race riots. Something America hasn't seen since the 1960's. Europe also faces rashes of Islamic terrorism with large minorities of disaffected and unemployed Muslim youth. Whereas in the US the Muslim community is prosperous and nearly fully integrated into the US. France has more debt as a percentage of GDP than the US has, France and Germany both fail to meet the minimum debt/spending standards for the EU every single year.
With climbing unemployment, no growth, stagnant to declining economies, high susceptibility to the effects of global warming and a unrest population with poor integration of immigrants on the footstep of a potentially hostile group of people and inadequate defenses to defend even the home country I'd bet Western Europe bit the dust long before the US ever "collapses" as you put it.
The fact is neither Europe nor the US are going anywhere fast. The US has faced challenges the last few years, in particular because of the current administration but if you think it's going to lead to the collapse of the US, or it's economy, you're an ignorant fool.
The OfficeJet 6310 has SEVEN HUNDRED FIFTY MEGABYTES of support software for it. It installs a DOZEN or more drivers on your machine, some of which appear to PORT SCAN the ENTIRE PORT RANGE OVER AND OVER, with others that will peg your CPU at 100%.
Obviously this new line of HP junk has so much crap associated with it that it can't even fit on a DVD, so they have to sell it as a managed service since no ordinary IT user could possibly control this POS.
I can no longer recommend HP to anyone. Buy Epson, folks. HP is done. Put a fork in it.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
By the time the USA collapses, the EU will be under sharia law. Of course even without this demographic result, the EU wouldn't be around when the USA collapses, since the EU is way ahead of the USA on the road it is following to economic collapse.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
This is pure marketing. HP will start selling the printers after their competitors found out the real effencies and match it with antoher set of technology. Nothing worth WOWing for.
say...for the consumables? or did their market research indicate people would balk at that? seems to me they could offer a couple options... printer free, with service plan; or printer for money, with pricier consumables. that would give the consumer the choice (and, not entirely coincidentally, allow hp to rip the consumer off if they chose the worse of the two options). it's simply a canard about making less money on the ink b/c they make as much profit margin on the ink as customers elect to pay.
From personal experience it looks like HP has hired Intel's "Crack" Marketing Department ...
..
Head up the ass or head in the ground = same result
I'll give this program about 6 months before "other options" are offered. If the printer is so damned efficeint than perhaps charge a bit more for the printer or cartridge as long as the net operating costs are nicely lower than other models / brands.
Next
Its not the years, its the mileage
- We don't sell razors, we sell shaves (but you still have to do it yourself)
- We don't sell cars, we sell transportation (sans chauffeur)
- We don't sell pens, we sell literature
- We don't sell lead balloons, we sell flights
Oh, did I forget the "Profit!!" ?Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
Don't keep the thing on all the time in a small room without ventilation.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Every time I change the cartridge on my HP 712C, it's like it just got overhauled. I paid about 100 dollars for this guy about four computers ago, and it still works excellently. As long as I can get parts, I will keep it!
Goddamned kids! Get off my lawn!
I use to work in that group 7-8 years ago when they were just beginning that project.
The likely reason it's something that you cannot buy is that it takes a massive amount of power, much more than a typical 20A/120V circuit can supply. So it's not something you can simply plug into your regular office/home power outlet.
During the previous product cycle, we worked with print heads that were 2" wide. The four print heads required drew 10-15 amps, IIRC. So let's do some conservative calculations:
Assuming they want this printer to do relatively large format printing, let's presume they can print up to "poster size," or 17" wide by 22" tall. With overprint, assume they need 18" wide print heads.
Using the conservative estimate of 10A/120V for 4 2" printheads, this printer will require at least 9X (18" / 2") the amperage to operate. They mentioned that a hydrophilic ("having a strong affinity for water") bonding agent is fixed to the paper, and this is likely applied with a fifth print-head [that's what they were planning when I was there]. So I'll do a rough calculation assuming five print-heads:
20A * 9 * (5/4) = 225A
So this puppy needs a power circuit that can provide [at surge] 225A at 120V, when printing full color, heavy saturation docs.
Your house probly doesn't even have that much to provide!