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Cold Fusion Gets a Boost From the US Navy

Tjeerd writes in to alert us to the publication in a highly respected, peer-reviewed journal of results indicative of table-top fusion. The US Navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center in San Diego, CA (called Spawar) has apparently been conducting research on "cold fusion" since the days of the discredited report of Pons and Fleischmann. They are reporting on the reproducible detection of highly energetic charged particles from a wire coated in palladium-deuterium and subjected to either an electric or a magnetic field. Their paper was published in February in the journal Naturwissenschaften (which has published work by Einstein, Heisenberg, and Lorenz). New Scientist also has a note about the fusion work but it is available only to subscribers.

168 comments

  1. Figures by DrMrLordX · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You can bet the Navy is interested in any portable, high-power energy source that could exceed the efficiency of fission reactors. Those rail guns they're pimping probably take a lot of power to operate.

    More power to em (literally and figuratively).

    1. Re:Figures by Da+Fokka · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's a huge difference between mere fusion reactions and an actual fusion reactor that will sustainably produce power. From what I've read, this is about the former, so I'm not keeping my fingers crossed just yet. However, it's still good to see that fusion research is being carried out along several different approaches.

    2. Re:Figures by MancDiceman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Talk about xenophobic racism.

      Read the post. That journal is one of the best journals in the World - look at the previous contributors mentioned in the post and tell me it's not a decent journal. Just because it's German, it doesn't mean it's "sub-par". Your post should be modded down for trolling, but unfortunately I expect it'll bubble up as "Informative".

      Also, most US/British journals would refuse to publish not because they doubted the ability of the scientists to produce good quality data, but because they have a knee-jerk reaction that cold fusion is junk science.

      Well done to this journal for actually taking it on.

    3. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I for one, do not welcome our Metal Gear RAY overlords..

    4. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't the whole point of winning energy out of fusion the heat it generates? So that you can drive those turbines?

      I suppose cold fusion is very useful if you want that special atom, but I don't the how it can power the net.

    5. Re:Figures by ShooterNeo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You might be interested to know that this isn't actually the case. A few hundred kilowatts of generating capacity is sufficient to fire rail guns. Why? Calculate the total energy content of 2 tons of explosives. That's how much kinetic energy a rail-gun shot might yield, and it isn't actually very much energy. (just released all at once : is why the rail-gun power supply would need to have massive accumulators of some type)

    6. Re:Figures by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Please note that if cold fusion really exists, it will probably not bear the same amount of energy. After all, the first occurrence of hot fusion was in the Hydrogen Bomb and the first occurrence of cold fusion was a bottle making bubbles.
      Still interesting to power my laptop battery but maybe not enough for my jetpack.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    7. Re:Figures by DrMrLordX · · Score: 1

      Yes, but how often can you fire your guns with that kind of generating capacity, and how many can you fire? Plus, I'm sure the Navy will eventually be interested in firing rail guns that can achieve a higher velocity projectile and/or higher-mass projectiles.

      Considering the fact that traditional naval guns have relied on chemical energy to propel projectiles, the amount of power generation capacity needed on a warship to fire old-school guns is/was likely much lower than that required to fire rail guns.

    8. Re:Figures by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

      You would think that. But it actually isn't the issue. And, in any case, if power generation were the main limit, the navy could always install a fission reactor in a rail-gun packing destroyer.

    9. Re:Figures by smilindog2000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Cold" fusion means cold relative to the temperature of the Sun (hot enough to fuse hydrogen). "Cold" fusion in theory could potentially boil water, and drive the turbines. However, a basic quantum physics result is that there is basically no way in heck that cold fusion will ever work, unless there is some new unknown physics taking place. While possible, it's unlikely, which is why most respected journals shy away from it, in addition to the large number of quacks the field has attracted. I put more hope in the Polywell stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    10. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      With a ISI Impact factor of ~1.2, it really is not one of the best journals in the world. It is also featured principally as a "Biomedical and Life Sciences" journal, so it would seem strange that the authors would publish a physics related article in this journal.

      Also, note that the list of previous famous contributors to the journal does not cite any *current* researcher. Maybe this used to be a great journal, but it's clearly no longer the case.

    11. Re:Figures by smittyoneeach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      xenophobic racism
      xenophobia: an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.
      racism: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

      You might also consider
      hyperbole: obvious and intentional exaggeration.
      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    12. Re:Figures by fritsd · · Score: 4, Informative
      Yeah, and Forbes used to be a respected business magazine.

      I agree with gp, in that the journal can have a brilliant reputation, but it's probably been a while since Einstein and Heisenberg wrote articles for it.

      The contents page of the issues of 2007 seems to deal more in zoology, biochemistry, ecology and palaeontology than materials science or quantum chemistry. Why was this article not published in "US military journal of applied physics" (surely there must be something like this)?

      Also, I didn't read gp as being derogatory of a journal because it's in German; that would just be silly.

      --
      To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
    13. Re:Figures by maxwell+demon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How else could the sentence "Why was it published in a German journal?" interpreted? He didn't ask "Why was it published in a low-impact journal?" or "Why wasn't it published in a journal with better reputation?".

      Of course, otherwise the question is valid. If you had proof of cold fusion, the first place you'd submit it to would normally be Physical Review Letters. Not because it's American, but because it's simply the most reputed magazine in physics.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    14. Re:Figures by timmarhy · · Score: 1
      "how often can you fire your guns with that kind of generating capacity, and how many can you fire? "

      compared to the equivalent from traditional gun powder? it's probably about the same.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    15. Re:Figures by timmarhy · · Score: 0, Troll
      "Also, most US/British journals would refuse to publish not because they doubted the ability of the scientists to produce good quality data, but because they have a knee-jerk reaction that cold fusion is junk science."

      and they would be right. please alt+F4 yourself NOW.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    16. Re:Figures by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      the first occurrence of cold fusion was a bottle making bubbles.

      Not so. The first occurence (the discovery itself) was caused by a fire in the lab where the experiment was housed; the starting point of the fire was the closet that contained the cooler with the heavy water.

      Several years later, probably the first replication of the effect was marked by a fire in the Palo Alto Lab containing the experiment. (To this day, both Stanford and the City of Palo Alto deny there was such a fire, but the local newspapers including the SF Chronicle carried the story.)

      So, yes "cold" fusion can provide a source of heat. Obviously.

    17. Re:Figures by celticryan · · Score: 1

      So many things about this make me a little curious:

      1. Why choose this Journal?
            -It is almost completely dominated by biological sciences. This makes me wonder about the credentials of the reviewers and therefore the credentials of the paper.
            -Why not PRC? Or if it is that great of a result- Science or Nature?
      2. Why short communication rather than a full article?
            -Is it really such a prolific article that they wanted to get a short comm. out immediately
      3. They specifically mention CR-39 detectors which are well established and well understood detectors.
            -Lends some credibility to results by minimizing some of their errors.
      4. Reproduction of the results.
            -They claim to be able to reproduce their results, which tells me they understand very well the production of their electrodes.

      I will have to wait until Monday to read the original paper.

    18. Re:Figures by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 1

      Damn, I hate to correct my own syntax in a post, but I feel I must before some eagle-eyed /.-er siezes on my error:

      I should have written (in the first sentence) "The first occurence (the experiment itself) was discovered when a fire in the lab was investigated;......." rather than what I wrote, which might be misunderstood to reverse cause and effect. Sorry.

      Love, Anna.

    19. Re:Figures by pallmall1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why choose this Journal?
      From wikipedia

      In 1991, Eugene Mallove who was the chief science writer with the MIT News office, said that he believes the negative report issued by MIT's Plasma Fusion Center in 1989, which was highly influential in the controversy, was fraudulent because "data was shifted" without explanation, and as a consequence, this action obscured a possible positive excess heat result at MIT. In protest of MIT's failure to discuss and acknowledge the significance of this data shift, he resigned from his post of chief science writer at the MIT News office on June 7, 1991. He maintained that the data shift was biased to both support the conventional belief in the nonexistence of the cold fusion effect as well as to protect the financial interests of the plasma fusion center's research in hot fusion. Also in 1991, Nobel Laureate Julian Schwinger said that he had experienced "the pressure for conformity in editor's rejection of submitted papers, based on venomous criticism of anonymous reviewers. The replacement of impartial reviewing by censorship will be the death of science". He resigned as Member and Fellow of the American Physical Society, in protest of its peer review practice on cold fusion.
      --bold added
      --
      3 things about computers: they're alive, they're self-aware, and they hate your guts.
    20. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Talk about racism!! Probably where Mengele published too!

    21. Re:Figures by gvc · · Score: 4, Informative

      I read the paper. As you note, it is a short communication documenting some observations from an experiment. It does not purport to be a breakthrough, although it does claim that the observations must be due to a nuclear reaction. The discussion clearly states that they have no theory as to the physical mechanism that might account for the observations.

      As an editor or a reviewer, I might well choose to publish a paper -- especially a short paper -- that documented some experimental results, even if the mechanism behind those results was unclear. Maybe there's a future paper forthcoming that either contradicts the results, or offers an explanation, nuclear or not. It makes sense to me to document the alleged evidence in the archival literature.

      I want to repeat that the conclusions of the paper are very weak. The outrageous claims have been added later by the popular press. And the argument that "Einstein published there 100 years ago, so it must be true" is unworthy of repetition or rebuttal.

    22. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow. I am guess that you are NOT in the science world. First, for a chemistry degree, you must have several years of college level German. Why? Because to this day, the bulk of top-end chemistry is written up in German. Does that mean that ALL of it is in German? No. But in general, most of my old chem profs sent their papers into German journals. As to other sciences, each field has their relative top journals and yes, many are in english. But in particular, the older sciences are in traditional languages. Physics has a large number of German journals.

    23. Re:Figures by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Well, presumably the US Navy consists primarily of English speakers. Also, the bulk of the people who ought to be interested in work by the US Navy, an arm of the US government, are English speakers. So, it would seem that the US Navy should publish their work (at least, that which is publishable) in a English-language journal. The fact that this was not done might suggest that it was not possible; no English language journal would accept their work. There might be other explanations, but this is the most obvious one, and it is certainly plausible.

      Add to that the fact that, since WWII, English has become the de facto language of the physics community, and it looks suspicious again.

      Thus, we see that the question "Why was it published in a German journal?" is quite likely the result of a thought process similar to that outlined above, rather than "xenophobic racism".

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    24. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You say that "a basic quantum physics result is that there is basically no way in heck that cold fusion will ever work" but this is untrue. Long before the Pons and Fleischmann, muon-catalysed fusion experiments had been successfully conducted and neutrons detected. The basic idea is to replace the electron in a hydrogen atom with a muon, which is 207 times heavier. This allows formation of a 'muonic atom' which makes a regular chemical bond with another atom, but with the nuclei much closer together. The nuclei are close enough that a (low probability) tunneling effect can allow the nuclei to fuse. The chief problems with the scheme are 1) muons don't hang around that long and 2) nobody has ever tried to produce them in the large quantities needed to make a productive reactor.
      Fusion is easy, the trick is always making an energy producing reactor with it.

    25. Re:Figures by mvdwege · · Score: 2, Informative

      Incidentally, guns on ships as an offensive weapon have been pretty much obsolete since Pearl Harbour, the occasional shore bombardment mission notwithstanding. The primary naval offensive platform is the aircraft carrier, seconded by the ballistic missile carrying submarine and the guided missile armed cruiser. The old battleship is a distant fourth, if in service at all, and even the use of guns as fleet defense is being phased out in favour of destroyers and frigates armed with guided missiles.

      Mart
      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    26. Re:Figures by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's published as a means of trying to get an explanation for the mechanism. Sort of like saying, "OK, we see this, and we can't think of any other reason why this might be happening, but we're scratching our heads bald, so anyone with an idea, please speak up."

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    27. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I work in biology and I associate Naturwissenschaften with bio articles. The journal now, however, publishes in English. It is a curious choice for a paper that may be widely important.

    28. Re:Figures by shaitand · · Score: 1

      'Why was this article not published in "US military journal of applied physics" (surely there must be something like this)?'

      That seems pretty obvious. Cold Fusion is considered junk science in the US and even credible labs releasing credible and reproducible results can't get anything related to Cold Fusion published in a US journal.

      Just look at this thread, this is obviously a credible scientific journal and people are already looking for excuses to disregard it.

    29. Re:Figures by shaitand · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Lets stop tiptoeing around it. This is a credible journal but not the first choice because the most obvious choices refused to publish an article on cold fusion no matter how credible the source.

    30. Re:Figures by tc9 · · Score: 1

      Why was this article not published in "US military journal of applied physics" (surely there must be something like this)?

      No there isn't, because the US is not about government the way much of the old world is. While in an Old World country, such a journal would have extra oomph, here a military reasearcher would feel dispapinted if he couldn't publish in a real journal.

      Possible Exception: NASA does run some lightweight journals more akin to a hard core Popular Mechanics than to scientific journals. But then, there goal is to disseminate technology rather than to publish science.

    31. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the first place you'd submit it to would normally be Physical Review Letters

      This might be true under normal circumstances, but the way cold fusion was introduced to the world created an exceptional condition. It could be that the submitters of this paper feel that the world is still in the 'catch' pathway of the exception that P&F had 'thrown'. It seems pretty obvious that Naturwissenschaften was chosen partly because it creates an association between cold fusion and proven theories that have rocked the foundations of scientific communities.

      We've seen a little bit published on why P&F took their findings to a media circus rather than a refereed journal. Something I've never seen discussed is that their press conference announcement of cold fusion assured that it would get so much instant wide publicity that neither government nor big business would be able to suppress it. So maybe this was a good way to break the news. But combined with the difficulties of repeatability in CF experiments and possibly several smear campaigns to discredit P&F, anyone attempting to publish legitimate work in CF now faces an abnormal publishing environment.

      Next month it won't matter very much where the current work was published; what will be important is whether other laboratories have been able to reproduce the results as claimed. I'm guessing that sufficient reproducibility will be found to raise serious doubts about a wide range of postulates that we have been taking for granted:

      If cold fusion is demonstrated, then

      • supernovae might not be the only natural mechanism for producing heavy elements, which would introduce major doubt about some basic theories of cosmology
      • there might be an explanation for galactic organization, etc, does not require esoteric dark energy or dark matter
      • currently there are only 4 recognized sources of natural energy in the global ecosystem:
        1. solar
        2. fission
        3. residual heat from planetary formation
        4. tidal effects and other mechanical energy derived from lunar orbital degradation
        CF introduces a possible 5th source of energy, independent of the above. This could, for instance, be involved with the heat of the earth's interior. Current theories in geology and ecology might need to be modified.
      • paleontology dating techniques based on isotope decay may need to account for isotopes produced by naturally occuring CF processes
      • Since CF occurs within biological parameters, it might be a player in biology itself. I haven't had to work with Kreb's Cycle for much more than a decade, but AIR there are some unexplained details in the "magical" electron transfers, etc, where a little CF might get rid of some those black magic veils

      Basically, demonstrating CF would have a much bigger impact on our culture than the rail guns, decentralized non-polluting power grids, or affordable flying cars that practical CF promises. All those technologies are implied by CF, but its greater impact will be on theories, not technologies.

    32. Re:Figures by qrad · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Perhaps the authors chose this journal for its historical significance. In 1938 Naturwissenshaften reported the work of Hahn and Meitner which was later referenced in establishing the existence of fission.

      qrad
      Ph.D. Student in Nuclear Science and Engineering
      MIT

    33. Re:Figures by shaitand · · Score: 1

      except that you don't have the stored chemical energy, you have to get the power for each shot from the ship generators.

    34. Re:Figures by yesteraeon · · Score: 1

      I know nothing about this journal and you're quite possibly right, but it's worth noting that ISI impact factors are not without controversy and certainly aren't the be all and end all for determining the importance of a journal. For one thing you'd have to know the trend of impact factors of journals in the specific field you're looking at. Differences in citation patterns can cause whole fields to have generally higher (or lower) impact factors than other fields, but this doesn't necessarily reflect a meaningful difference between the fields or the journals involved.

    35. Re:Figures by drgonzo59 · · Score: 1
      Talk about idiotic exageration.

      I corrected you post the way you should have written it.

      Read the post. That journal MIGHT HAVE BEEN one of the best journals in the World - looking at the previous contributors mentioned in the post I CAN tell you that it MIGHT HAVE BEEN one of the best journals. Just because it's German and the ONLY THING IT HAS TO SHOW IS THAT EINSTEIN published in it 80 years ago, it DOES mean it is "sub-par". Your post should be modded down for trolling, but unfortunately I expect it'll bubble up as "INTERESTING".

      Let's see, US Navy does some supposedly "amazing" research: tabletop fusion. (Tell me that is not an amazing discovery). What's the firs thing they do? They say: "let's publish it in a German/Chilean/Chinese/Algerian/etc. journal that nobody has heard of", right? -- Wrong! They submit their stuff to journals like Nature and such. They probably got rejected. Then they start searching for _a_ journal that will publish their stuff.

      You have obviously never published anything an have no idea how this works. Yet because you throw around words like xenophobia and racism ( do you even know what they mean?) you get modded as "Interesting" -- Yes, interesting indeed.

    36. Re:Figures by evanbd · · Score: 2, Informative

      The energy content of 2 tons of TNT is about 8 gigajoules. That's rather a lot of energy. A kinetic projectile at 10,000 m/s -- mach 30 -- has 50 megajoules per kilogram. You'd need a 160 kg of projectile to reach 8 GJ. Seems possible for a shipboard system, but I bet the first applications are much smaller. Anyway, for something that size you'd want much more than a few hundred kw of generator -- even at 1MW, that's over 2 hours between shots with no inefficiencies anywhere. My personal guess is that the first deployed railguns will be moderate velocity ( 10 kps) moderate weight projectiles (a couple kg) intended basically for tank-killing and use against light ships. And even so, they'll be power-hungry, because they'll want to fire several times a minute.

    37. Re:Figures by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I stand corrected. Muon-catalyzed fusion has been feasible for a long time. To bad I don't own a good mine for digging up muons :-) I assume the Navy research is talking about cold fusion between regular deuterium atoms, which if I understand correctly, is mathematically very unlikely assuming normal states of matter, due to the heavy electric repulsion between the nuclei, which muons get around by reducing the size of a neutrally charged atom to small enough to allow strong forces to kick in. If the result is repeatable it points to something very strange going on.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    38. Re:Figures by Caffeinate · · Score: 1

      Love, Anna. You do realize that by posting that a) you've just blown the minds of several people who just came to the startling realization that there are women on /. and b) they're now convinced that you love them and are messaging their friends and telling them they have a girlfriend.

      (I kid, but it is fun to stereotype sometimes).
      --
      Godless heathen.
    39. Re:Figures by radtea · · Score: 1

      It does not purport to be a breakthrough, although it does claim that the observations must be due to a nuclear reaction.

      As I have no access to the paper it is hard to judge the results, but from this and other comments it appears that their work substantially contradicts P&F's observations, which could not possibly have been due to any fusion reaction that produced energetic charged particles, because there is no way at all for a sufficiently high-energy charged particle to move through a palladium lattice without knocking neutrons off palladium nuclei in the process.

      This is an interesting result due to its reproducibility, which has been notably lacking in the cold fusion community. Fusion cross-sections for deuterium particularly are very sensitive to the details of the nuclear wavefunction, and it is by no means impossible that there is something going on that could produce some fusion in the lattice. But it is certainly not what P&F saw, because anyone with a Geiger counter could have detected the residual radioactivity that would have come from the neutron burst generated with their apparatus burned up.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    40. Re:Figures by DrVomact · · Score: 1
      You paid $35 for the paper? You're more dedicated than I...or is there some legal way to get the article for free?

      Not wanting to spend the money, I have to content myself with the (presumably non-restricted) abstract:

      Almost two decades ago, Fleischmann and Pons reported excess enthalpy generation in the negatively polarized Pd/D-D2O system, which they attributed to nuclear reactions. In the months and years that followed, other manifestations of nuclear activities in this system were observed, viz. tritium and helium production and transmutation of elements. In this report, we present additional evidence, namely, the emission of highly energetic charged particles emitted from the Pd/D electrode when this system is placed in either an external electrostatic or magnetostatic field. The density of tracks registered by a CR-39 detector was found to be of a magnitude that provides undisputable evidence of their nuclear origin. The experiments were reproducible. A model based upon electron capture is proposed to explain the reaction products observed in the Pd/D-D2O system.

      Damn, that sounds pretty break-throughish to me...or is the abstract itself hyperbole?

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    41. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Have you read the crazy performance numbers they are projecting for a big railgun? They are talking about hundreds of miles of range, with projectiles that have active guidance (with movable fins).

      Thus, a new weapons platform that can do many jobs that would currently require a missile, but the cost would be much less. And you can have a whole cargo hold full of warheads; missiles take up more room. And the kinetic punch of the warhead does the damage, so there isn't any explosive payload on the warhead; so if the ship takes a hit in the magazine, the railgun ammo can't explode.

      So, guns are on the way out... but this is something new.

    42. Re:Figures by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 1

      Yes, peeps do keep hitting on me online.

      Clue: I am NOT a woman.

      Say my complete name out loud and you will get it.

      Love, Anna.

    43. Re:Figures by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Depends on how you want to generate the pulse you need, and how much of a pulse you're using. High-end railguns can get some truly phenomenal energies, but they're prone to arc-welding the sabot to the rails instead of firing. At this point, you must reconstruct everything except the pulse mechanism, and you might have to service that depending on tolerances.

      Below that you have stable railguns which do not weld instead of shooting, but still must be serviced after each shot to repair damage done to the rails from friction.

      By the time you hit railguns that can be fired over and over again without ill effect, you've lost the ability to replace missiles as the Navy was looking into, and you instead have a viable antimissile system. You can now shoot targets out of the sky with impunity, but you need to put back your ballistic missiles. Hell, you could probably replace SAMs with them too.

      The last problem is that they need to be on very stable platforms. Unlike a missile, which generates it's energy through a chemical reaction upon reaching the target, railguns fire sabots. All the energy this 2.2 kg piece of tungsten is going to have is generated at the ship, and a loose railgun can be ripped from it's bolts and thrown across the deck by the recoil.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    44. Re:Figures by gvc · · Score: 2, Informative

      My library has a subscription.

      Here's a freely available article that apparently explains the theory. It is cited in an erratum to the original paper.

    45. Re:Figures by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      Basically, demonstrating CF would have a much bigger impact on our culture than the rail guns, decentralized non-polluting power grids, or affordable flying cars that practical CF promises. I wouldn't be so sure of that. If I've learned anything from playing FPS games, it's that you can't underestimate the effect of rail guns.
    46. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was under the impression that this was all the result of the drive twords hybrid gas electric destoyers. I have not heard that the battleship was ever thought of as the rail gun platform.

    47. Re:Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I might add that xenophobia is just fear of the unknown in general.

    48. Re:Figures by salec · · Score: 2, Informative

      If cold fusion is demonstrated, then

              * supernovae might not be the only natural mechanism for producing heavy elements, which would introduce major doubt about some basic theories of cosmology
              * there might be an explanation for galactic organization, etc, does not require esoteric dark energy or dark matter
              * currently there are only 4 recognized sources of natural energy in the global ecosystem:
                        1. solar
                        2. fission
                        3. residual heat from planetary formation
                        4. tidal effects and other mechanical energy derived from lunar orbital degradation
                  CF introduces a possible 5th source of energy, independent of the above. This could, for instance, be involved with the heat of the earth's interior. Current theories in geology and ecology might need to be modified.
              * paleontology dating techniques based on isotope decay may need to account for isotopes produced by naturally occuring CF processes
              * Since CF occurs within biological parameters, it might be a player in biology itself. I haven't had to work with Kreb's Cycle for much more than a decade, but AIR there are some unexplained details in the "magical" electron transfers, etc, where a little CF might get rid of some those black magic veils

      Basically, demonstrating CF would have a much bigger impact on our culture than the rail guns, decentralized non-polluting power grids, or affordable flying cars that practical CF promises. All those technologies are implied by CF, but its greater impact will be on theories, not technologies.

      You are stretching it to far... fusion is fusion, cold or hot. The main problem with it is overcoming Coloumb forces between the nuclei so that strong interaction can kick in and merge them, releasing residual energy surplus of course.

      Disclaimer: IANANP and what follows is gross oversimplification.

      Now, basically, with "hot" fusion, we try to give so much kinetic (thermal) energy to nuclei as well as cram a lot of them into confined space (raise pressure) so that statistically they have good enough chance of colliding.

      With "cold" fusion, however, we are trying to take advantage of an unique property of hydrogen - because it is the smallest of atoms, it can enter inside the crystal grid of some metals, notably palladium or copper, in small space between the atoms making the grid. When it happens, hydrogen, or preferably, deuterium is well crammed into very confined space and then the probability of it running into other fusion-fuel brethen nuclei is allegedly much higher then in the open. It is quite a cunning trick and obviously very little energy is wasted compared to "thermal" method - therefore the "cold" fusion.

      So, there you go, it is not that esoteric and mystical after all.
    49. Re:Figures by cbacba · · Score: 1

      1938 was an interesting year. AIP has an online index and reprints. It seems that Bethe and Alfven published serious work along with Feynman (not collaborative), including the CNO cycle of 2ndary solar fusion - a scant 8 yrs after the discovery of the neutron and the fission of U238/235.

      As for this, it looks like there is now a reproduceable way for verifying nuclear reactions going on, something that pons and fleichman had serious trouble with but considering that D and Pd are being used, pehaps indicates they were on some sort of track not too far from success (of verifying a reaction). Another navy supported fusion project is that one with the vacuum tube and funny name - that evidently in some incarnation reached the point of being a commercial neutron generator.

      I'm not sure either of these have been thought to have produced measureable energy, nevermind the notion of starting towards break-
      even. Whether they are 5 months or 5 centuries away (if ever) from useful products, perhaps the releasing of the information is intended to try to reduce that time by a de facto 'contest' like the x-prize - without the commitment to providing money.

    50. Re:Figures by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      You point out the definitions of xenophobia and racism, though I can't see why. Those aren't mutually exclusive beliefs, you know. I would argue many people are xenophobic racists... their xenophobia is simply fueled by racism. ie: I fear strangers/foreigners because their inherent inferiority makes them dangerous.

      In fact, I'd say this fits the view of many Americans.

    51. Re:Figures by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      The point was that, given their actual definitions, I felt that using them in the context of noting that the journal was German was an example of hyperbole, the third definition given.
      Sure, it fits the view of many Americans. And Germans. And Japanese. And Brits. And Russians. And Pakistanis.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    52. Re:Figures by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Informative

      except that you don't have the stored chemical energy, you have to get the power for each shot from the ship generators.

      Which they already have. Really, really big ones; it takes a crapload of energy to push a ship through the water quickly, too, and in order to do it, the Navy (and its contractors) have gotten good at extracting a lot of energy from either nuclear reactions or petrochemicals in short order.

      A current-generation Aegis frigate has two GE LM2500 gas turbines, each producing 33,600 shaft HP, which is about 25MW. So that's 50MW right there, without any exotic technology; even accounting for the conversion to electricity, that's far more than you'd need for a railgun's accumulators.

      The reason we don't have railguns on battleships right now (aside from the fact that we don't really have any battleships in service) are that there's no demand. Yeah, it would be cool to fire a tungsten slug at some ridiculous speed over the horizon, but then again you can do the same thing with a missile right now and not have to deal with Congress getting their panties in a bunch over how much money you're spending.

      There are a whole lot of defense/military projects that are probably technically feasible, if anyone (anyone with a lot of money and resources, that is) wanted to build one -- but there hasn't been a whole lot driving military innovation since the end of the Cold War. There's just no reason to spend the money without any enemy that's close to developing the same thing.

      Now, maybe in ten or fifteen years, the situation might be different, if the Chinese start spending a lot of money on advanced weapons programs. The U.S. military, historically, tends to be reluctant to change what it perceives to be a 'good thing,' right up until they are clearly shown to be behind the times, following which there's a massive rush to update everything. (Cf. naval aviation vs battleships, the Zero vs the Wildcat, long rifles vs submachine guns as personal weapons, or any number of other disputes.)

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    53. Re:Figures by tsdw · · Score: 1

      this explanation doesn't use actual math but from a layman's perspective it seems correct. fusion occurs when some 'force' is broken down (strong nuc, weak nuc, or something) This occurs naturally under tremendous heat and/or pressure Thus far nothing we have found will break down or neutralize this force except for extreme heat, further the 'math' indicates that only these extreme temperatures can do it. So so-called 'cold fusion' isn't possible, we need to be looking at a way to generate and contain the extreme temps, not try to find a way to use colder temps.

  2. curious by User+956 · · Score: 5, Funny

    The US Navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center in San Diego, CA (called Spawar) has apparently been conducting research on "cold fusion"

    I wonder why they chose that over ASP .NET or J2EE.

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:curious by Bender_ · · Score: 2, Funny


      Computer geek vs. science geek battle alert!

      I will take the science side any time! Web technology fads come and go, science will stay.

    2. Re:curious by Jessta · · Score: 4, Funny

      Because Myspace proved that you can make a solid, easy to use, and efficient website with it. :P

      --
      ...and that is all I have to say about that.
      http://jessta.id.au
    3. Re:curious by XMyth · · Score: 1

      Myspace is transitioning to ASP.NET though ... :)

    4. Re:curious by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Like how quantum theory is so very stable? or how the Earth is the center of the universe and also flat? Science fads seem to last longer but is that really better? I'd rather that science advanced as quickly as web technology.... would be nice to see this new science Cold Fusion come out of Alpha by next year so I could deploy my beta home CF Reactor and get off the grid.... like how I can now use an off the shelf OS CMS to run my own website without paying a million bucks for a dev company to build one from scratch (they did that for those prices less than 5 years ago).

      Seems like there's more productivity gains in Web tech than science to me. I'll bet my ready money on web tech for the near term and put steady but small incremental investments in science for the long hold to offset my riskier web tech losses and squirrel some away for retirement.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    5. Re:curious by f1055man · · Score: 1

      cartman: social cripple fight!!!

  3. Far more exciting by ab8ten · · Score: 5, Interesting

    is the work (also funded by the navy) undertaken by Dr. Bussard (of interstellar spaceship fame). His design for an electrostatic inertial confinement machine shows more promise than the heavy, expensive tokamak prefered by the internatinal ITER project, and has been built and tested in the lab, but not yet to an energy-return scale. The work was kept secret due to the source of funding, for the last 12 years, so it is only now that we're hearing aboutu it. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846 673788606 - Lecture given by Bussard at google, giving an overview of the project. 1:30 long, so if you don't have time, read: http://www.askmar.com/ConferenceNotes/2006-9%20IAC %20Paper.pdf - Summary paper, outlining the research and results so far. The real research paper is yet to be published, but that's what he's working on now.

    --
    I have no .sig
    1. Re:Far more exciting by WarJolt · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Last I heard richard bussard is still looking for funding. I bet even if he was being funded we probably wouldn't hear anything about it anyway. It's rediculous that no one would fund $200 million to create a working fusion reactor. Relatively thats not much money and if we could put it into our powerplants we would reduce the need for oil.

    2. Re:Far more exciting by VoidCrow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      On the contrary, I'd suggest that the LENR work is far more exciting because we don't have a theoretical framework which describes it. New physics, anyone?

    3. Re:Far more exciting by spankey51 · · Score: 1

      Ok... I watched the WHOLE DAMN VIDEO... and read everything I could find about the Polywell fusor, and it seems universally deemed to be the proven method of fusion; decades ahead of, and orders of magnitude more realistic than ITER.
      The resounding story seems to be that Bussard can't raise a simple $200 million after touring the world with his idea and freely presenting his (patented) design for the IEC Polywell fusor to every conceivable entity, from Google Co. to China and the US NAVY.

      The articles I read (Eg. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2584496&C=a merica) claim that the funding he requested from the Navy was denied because the IEC concept is a direct threat to the Navy's other fusion baby: ITER.

      So why is the Navy funding this other cold fusion technology?
      And what is it about Bussard's research that makes it so dismissable?

      --
      -ubuntu others as you would have others ubuntu you.
    4. Re:Far more exciting by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Who has $200 million AND actually wants to reduce the need for oil? Are you one of those who actually believes our dependence upon oil has something to do with a lack of other technology?

    5. Re:Far more exciting by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      You could express the opinion that since tokamak fusion requires huge amounts of engineering and is a multi-billion dollar industry in itself that the military industrial complex (emphasis on the industrial) has discouraged spending on alternatives that may produce a demonstrable over-unity reactor at a fraction of the $4.8 billion dollars (2002 dollars at that) that the DoE estimates ITER will cost.

      Bussard estimates that he could complete one by 2011, ITER is slated to finish in 2013. I'd imagine that a lot of people involved in ITER would be terrified that IEC would be a viable approach ; a lot of people would look politically silly (and of course, in modern politics, your career isn't allowed to survive honest mistakes.), a lot of money might be at risk - lets face it, even if ITER remains on time and on budget, you're looking at at least a billion. If like most government projects, it runs wildly over budget and over time (lets say double), you'd be looking at losing a figure around 20 times what Bussard proposes to spend.

    6. Re:Far more exciting by b00tang · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There have been a couple posts like this already so I'll take the bait and ask:
      where has the polywell fusor been "universally deemed to be the proven method of fusion". If you want to learn more about people who currently are doing IEC research and are in fact funded by the DOE to do so (the Navy doesn't fund ITER to my knowledge things like that go through the DOE), then check out the website from at University of Madison:
      http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/iec/ftisite1.htm

      It should give at least a brief introduction to what people who have funding tend to use IEC for (neutron generation and maybe someday energy through the D-He3 reaction if we had He3).

      I can't tell you exactly why the Navy isn't funding Bussard but I can ask a question that I bet the Navy asked. Bussard wants $200 million dollars to scale up his fusor based on the few results he found before the fusor broke. Why not apply for a grant to rebuild the device and actually demonstrate results? If thats not good enough why not scale it up slightly before going for the whole $200 million dollar large scale system? There are hundreds (thousands?) of small research companies with great ideas all competing to have their ideas funded and those companies often only ask for $100,000 (approximately an average phase I grant). Is it worth gambling $200 million on something that hasn't demonstrated results when that money could go to so many other ideas that have? I'm not sure how big the grant for this cold fusion research was but I am willing to be its pretty small.

      I won't even go into all the side benefits of ITER (large scale international collaboration, developing new technology on U.S. soil, wide spread support from the majority of fusion scientists), but I will say that all these conspiracy theories that no money goes to anything but ITER should google "innovative confinement concepts"

      Sorry I guess this was pretty off-topic, but really, look at my karma, how much worse could things get? ...

    7. Re:Far more exciting by WarJolt · · Score: 1

      I completely understand why the oil industry wants to hold onto its monopoly. Just wish people didn't argue the politics incessantly without offering solutions. Thats how get stuff like ethanol which isn't much better than the oil industry.

      If enough people are pissed off and know about the solutions then once in a while we can get something done as a community. I for one am a proud citizen of the United States, but I'm not a fan of the oil companies. I think most Americans wouldn't mind funding a feasible alternative to oil.

    8. Re:Far more exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What lack?

      There wasn't have one....except through irrational and unjustified fear.
      If we'd had the backbone to shout down the fear-mongers over the nuclear issue 50 years ago, then large-scale (and cheap, and non-polluting from a GHG standpoint) energy production would have already been settled long ago.
      I, for one, am rapidly becoming tired of alarmists shouting about questionable causes and demanding ill-thought solutions that (in the long run) don't work and create even more of a mess.....and all because not enough study was done on the solution in the rush of the "urgency".
      The worst part is the same players pop up for the next self-made "crisis", screaming for yet another ill-thought solution, with nary a word about it having been their fault in the first place.
      We need to start holding them accountable for their actions in some real and personal way.

      Dr Bussards work is for large scale energy production....it would replace coal, since we don't burn oil for electricity.
      You know, the same niche nuclear would have had.
      Now, it might replace oil for home heating, in that electricity would come down in price and be a viability everywhere.
      And it might replace oil for cars, if we're willing to switch the entire market to electric...and live with the limitations of the current (and near future) crop of EVs.

    9. Re:Far more exciting by shaitand · · Score: 1

      'If enough people are pissed off and know about the solutions then once in a while we can get something done as a community.'

      I'm pretty sure that fantasy was dispelled during Vietnam and again in Iraq. Once, long ago, the people had a measure of power because the citizenry was armed. Now, the people have been disarmed (except maybe the gangs) and the government has centralized its power. If the government isn't kind enough to respect the wishes of the people, the peoples only recourse is to ask again nicely in another political process. You could counter with voting but I guarantee you will only see major party candidates and they have no interest in alternative power succeeding. The left will pay it lip service but will only pass token bills and use them to bury more bought and paid for legislation from the copyright regimes.

      'Just wish people didn't argue the politics incessantly without offering solutions.'

      Our forefathers could tell you and recognized in the second amendment. There is only one solution and people have neither the power nor the stomach for it anymore. We will give up all our freedoms and let corporate interests enslave us completely before we have the grit for a civil war here.

    10. Re:Far more exciting by Mr.+Mikey · · Score: 1

      The idea that private gun ownership is what stands between us and tyranny is a fantasy brought on by too many viewings of "Red Dawn." If this is all you can imagine as being an effective instantiation of "we can get things done as a community", then it would appear that your imagination died and you simply failed to notice.

      On second thought, you said "There is only one solution...", which pretty much proves you have no imagination worth mentioning...

      What stands between us and tyranny is an informed, aware, politically involved populace. If you don't have that, shotguns and pistols aren't going to magically solve your problem.

      --
      wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
    11. Re:Far more exciting by Taco+Meat · · Score: 1

      Wow. Nothing you say makes any sense. Stop. It. Now.

      --
      It's not narcissicism if it's true!
  4. Why keep working on Cold Fusion? by El+Icaro · · Score: 0

    This is completely useless and a waste of time. Everyone knows if they need it they have Naquadah Generators at their disposal!

    1. Re:Why keep working on Cold Fusion? by mochan_s · · Score: 1

      This is completely useless and a waste of time. Everyone knows if they need it they have Naquadah Generators at their disposal!

      Get with the times. ZPM is the energy source of choice now. Naquadah is backup.

    2. Re:Why keep working on Cold Fusion? by doktorjayd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      y'see!

      its useless drivel like this that makes wikipedia look like a comedic joke. ( aside from the politicians pumping their own ( or opponents ) entries... thats just comedy )

      when i want to find shit out, i like to search wikipedia. when it comes up with 'naquadah generators' it makes you think the thing is driven by a bunch of high school trekkies with far too much time on their hands.

      sorry for the rant jimbo, but please keep this shit out of wikia or whatever the wikipedia #2 is called.

    3. Re:Why keep working on Cold Fusion? by Dadoo · · Score: 1

      its useless drivel like this that makes wikipedia look like a comedic joke.

      Oh, stop. Like it or not, Stargate is part of our culture, now. If "naquadah generators" don't belong on WikiPedia, neither do things like kryptonite or "the silver bullet", and I'm pretty sure most people will argue that with you.

      --
      Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
    4. Re:Why keep working on Cold Fusion? by doktorjayd · · Score: 1

      you know its a fucking tv show right?

      with both a small and dwindling viewership at that?

      if this stuff belongs anywhere in wikipedia, its all under a single entry for that particular show. not a full title for some fictional device.

      whack an a name="#" anchor in there if its really important.

      even better, referring browser to a sci-fi dedicated wiki for this shit when stargate comes up.

      something like http://wiki.ihavenolifeoranychanceofmeaningfulrela tionshipwithoppositesex.com/stargate.php

    5. Re:Why keep working on Cold Fusion? by Quietly+Amused · · Score: 1

      Strange...... I'm 34, very happily married, a medical Doctor and an British Army officer with the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.....and I also quite like Stargate. Sorry, hadn't realised that I had to be a complete failure in my life to like Sci Fi.....I'll just go out and buy a cheap mac and flash at some pensioners now, since that's apparently what I have to do....

  5. LERN by Skrynkelberg · · Score: 5, Funny

    "... low energy nuclear reaction (LERN)" Someone needs to LERN to abbreviate correctly. (-:

    1. Re:LERN by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Don't poke fun at the members of the ASD (American Dyslexic Society).

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    2. Re:LERN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "... low energy nuclear reaction (LERN)" Someone needs to LERN to abbreviate correctly. (-:
      . ...and also the difference between abbreviations and acronyms.

  6. I hope this means ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... that one day I'll be able to use the melted ice in my 'Cold Fusion' brand beer cooler to recharge my laptop and my iPod ... or even my TV remote.

  7. Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by Eukariote · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The "Cold Fusion" field has seen many more experimental successes: detection of neutrons, tritium, helium, transmutations of heavier elements, non-natural-abundance isotope ratios, detection of ionizing radiation. The best place to visit for an overview of the field is http://www.lenr-canr.org/.

    Though the experiments are remarkable, no concensus on the theory has emerged yet. Nuclear reactions are clearly happening, but it is doubtful that it is conventional fusion, that is, nuclei moving fast enough to surmount their mutual Coulombic repulsion. Something seems to be screening or catalysing the reactions.

    1. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by ResidntGeek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Shit... "nuclear catalyst" - there's a phrase to put fear into the heart of anyone who knows what a catalyst is.

      --
      ResidntGeek
    2. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by KitsuneSoftware · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Nuclear catalyst" the most sensible phrase, given the theory (false or not) is that palladium can be used as a nuclear equivalent to a chemical catalyst (i.e. not used up in the reaction it assists). This "misue" of catalyst is also found in other approaches to fusion, such muon-catalyzed fusion and antimatter catalyzed nuclear pulse propulsion.

    3. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by evilviper · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "nuclear catalyst" - there's a phrase to put fear into the heart of anyone who knows what a catalyst is.
      ...but doesn't know what "nuclear" actually means.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    4. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, it's still quite scary. though probably not for the reason the gp intended..

      For instance, in addition to the sub-critical nuclear terrorism angle, nuclear catalysts could cause a bit of a stir in isotopic dating.

      If such a catalyst exists, geology should give us some clues: We should look for minerals composed of reaction products, but in concentrations that shouldn't exist.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    5. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by evilviper · · Score: 2, Funny

      nuclear catalysts could cause a bit of a stir in isotopic dating.

      Yes, that could be an issue... But that's absolutely, positively, NOT SCARY, in any way, shape, or form.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nuclear catalysts could cause a bit of a stir in isotopic dating. Yes, that could be an issue... But that's absolutely, positively, NOT SCARY, in any way, shape, or form.

      Um... actually I find the thought of anything scientific that would give credence to the idea that the Earth is only 6,000 years old to be VERY SCARY.

    7. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by DeadChobi · · Score: 1

      Yes, the catalyst exists. We are all made in His image. You might also be interested to know that He is invisible, and passes through normal matter with ease. Clearly you cannot see past the marinara to the noodles below and understand that this is proof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's existence.

      --
      SRSLY.
    8. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      To get this to go takes quite a lot of preparation, not least getting deuterium concentrated. The effect is not seen with plain hydrogen, so while interesting transmutation have been measured, it is hard to see how this could happen in nature and affect isotopic dating.

      Heck, it is hard to see how this could happen at all. The deuteron having integer spin seems like the only thread to pull on....

    9. Re:Low Energy Nuclear Reactions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because that would mean those people who were scared of anything scientific that would give credence to the idea that the Earth is OLDER than that were right?

  8. Either way its the Air Force that has them... by Cyno01 · · Score: 1

    Not the Navy.

    --
    "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
  9. Video by Eukariote · · Score: 3, Informative

    For an video/documentary outlining the status of the "Cold Fusion" field, see the following over on Google video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6426393169 641611451&q=COLD+FUSION&hl=en

  10. I won't believe it for real until... by Glowing+Fish · · Score: 4, Funny

    I won't believe the Navy has really discovered anything until they commission The Village People to write a song about it.

    --
    Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
    1. Re:I won't believe it for real until... by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      ...L - E - N - R! It's fun to play with some L - E - N - R...

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    2. Re:I won't believe it for real until... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      The Navy didn't commission The Village People, they just tried to get the rights to use their song after it became popular. As payment, they provided the use of a ship and some sailors for filming the video, which caused a PR backlash.

      Also, to address the sibling poster, this guy played the sailor, this guy played the construction worker, and neither of them appear to be dead.

      Sorry for letting facts get in the way of an otherwise good joke though.

    3. Re:I won't believe it for real until... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Oops, he said the Policeman. Still, he wasn't the sailor, and he's not dead.

  11. Perhaps the navy has incentive.. by j-stroy · · Score: 1

    After all, obscenely noisey, light emitting shrimp bubbles have been jamming their sonar.. Someone finally went hmmmm...

    Oh yeah, something similar proposed to kick off supernovae and detected in solar reactions

    Anyhow, seems like sound waves might make a plasma confinement field and also pump energy into it, rather than using magnets and lasers etc. Some other thread Definition of Sonoluminescence
    PS If the universe is electrical and acoustic, it must be a giant stereo!

    1. Re:Perhaps the navy has incentive.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> "PS If the universe is electrical and acoustic ..." ... it must be a giant guitar!

  12. Cold fusion by Oshkoshjohn · · Score: 2, Funny

    The experiment would probably work better if they built the prototype in a cup of tea!

    --
    Goddamned kids! Get off my lawn!
    1. Re:Cold fusion by kilodelta · · Score: 1

      Add a rubber band and a little improbability and well, you know the rest.

    2. Re:Cold Fusion by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      Surely everyone who's ever seen it wants to improve MySpace?

  13. LENR-CANR by mdsolar · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yup, Low Energy Nuclear Reactions or Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reaction. There is quite a lot that is published here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/. The SPAWARS work is quite impressive, with more links to it at http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm.
    --
    Get fusion now: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  14. Call me ignorant (but considerate) by xerxesVII · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So maybe I've had a few tonight, but I'm thoughtful enough to not go texting people at this hour. I'll just bug all of you instead.

    I feel like I've been reading about cold fusion for as long as I've been old enough to read about science. I can't shake the feeling that cold fusion research is the modern equivalent of alchemy. That is to say that it's kind of a dead end in itself, but the amount of work being done to that end is yielding all kinds of results that will be beneficial to other scientists at some other point.

    As to why I just had to come on here and spew this, I will refer you to my colleague, Professor Daniels.

    --
    "We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
  15. I work in the wrong department by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damnit, I work for SPAWAR but didn't even know we were messing around with cold fusion. You learn something new everyday on /.

    1. Re:I work in the wrong department by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I work for SPAWAR

      There's a government department just to handle warfare in spas? No wonder our taxes are so high!

    2. Re:I work in the wrong department by WED+Fan · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Pssst...Hey, we are working on some black ops there as well, mud packs and all. Plus the Spooks of SPAWAR are trying to pit the Swedish Spas against the Korean Spas, and we are going to use Japanese Spas as a proxy against the Tuscans.

      But, whatever you do, don't tell the folks in Santa Fe, we have really big plans for them.

      --
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
  16. Boiling water by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    I think I remeber that some of the references in this review http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinnewphys ica.pdf to the "heat after death" effect described buckets of water evaporating. For most experiments they try to keep delta T low because they are trying to get an accurate energy measurement using flow calorimeters.
    --
    Mr. Fusion on your roof: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  17. Cold Fusion by NotFamousYet · · Score: 3, Funny

    When I saw the title I thought it was about ColdFusion and started wondering why the hell would the Navy want to improve MySpace :)

  18. That Depends by mdsolar · · Score: 4, Informative

    The energy produced per fusion event pretty much has to be the same, but the rate at which the fusion occurs is controled differently. If this can be harnessed for energy production, it may end up as distributed power generation rather than centralized power generation envisioned for hot fusion. There does seem to be sufficient palladium available to make significant levels of power.
    --
    Hot fusion now with no installation cost: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  19. Method by mdsolar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The method of recording nuclear tracks is a solid is an old one but it has the advantage that the recording material can be placed very close to the reaction. This has lead to the discovery of very short lived particles that might be long sought axions in a recent accelerator experiment: http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0954-3899/34/1/009. The plastic detectors used in the SPAWARS experiment can be placed close to the electrode so that background is a smaller part of the overall signal. Their method of electrode fabrication is also impressive. It seems to work just about every time.
    --
    Get solar power for what you pay your utility now: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  20. Obligitory... by bronzey214 · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...Yvan Eht Nioj

  21. Not for them to say by fatphil · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    "The experiments were reproducible."

    That's for other scientists to say.

    Loons tend to tell you their results are reproducable. Scientists tend to tell you to see for yourself.

    --
    Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    1. Re:Not for them to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm... The sentence you quote is from the abstract of the published article from the German scientific journal. Perhaps you should consider publishing something yourself also and get a career in science like these scientists.

    2. Re:Not for them to say by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      absolutely incorrect. It is perfectly valid, in science and almost any other field, to clarify that your results are reproducible. In fact, in science and nearly any other field, if you can't reproduce the results yourself, people don't want to know about it.

      In this particular field, it is in fact important to clarify such a thing. It could be that you only saw signs that you stumbled upon, not quite understanding them, but they looked like fusion took place. Others might still want to look at your lab notes, your results, what you were doing...in an effort to see if they can stumble upon it as well.

      When a loon tells me they were able to fly, but only once, I'm substantially less interested than I am in the loon (esp if it's a huge gov organization like the Navy...) that says he knows how to fly, and can show me.

    3. Re:Not for them to say by fatphil · · Score: 1

      But the results of a fabricator hold no more credibility because he says that he can reproduce his results. N*0=0.

      Therefore there is absolutely no point at all in claiming that one can repeat ones results. Don't make useless claims - just show me the error bars. Of course, if one says one can't reproduce ones results, then one's a different type of loon. The only validation occurs when _others_ reproduce the results.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    4. Re:Not for them to say by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      Actually, in a field where sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, reporting being able to get it to work consistently is progress. As you point out others would validate, but this is more like saying you're out of alpha and into beta. It is a little more than that, too. If they can do it over an over again, if someone else cannot, then it is more likely to be a problem with the other set up than a fluke in the original. It also means they are ready to share their skill (beta rather than alpha again).

    5. Re:Not for them to say by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      Did you even read what I wrote? If you see some results and can't reproduce them, especially on this particular topic, people will still be interested. If you can reproduce them, then that's an even bigger deal. I covered both of those. It's fairly simple as to the whys involved.

      There's a lot of cutting-edge science that is very hit-and-miss, and for those topics, good lab notes are almost as good as reproducible results, to those who examine what you've seen.

    6. Re:Not for them to say by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Yes I did read what you said.

      Everything that's needed is in the _data_, in the error bars. Commentary like "and we're not lying, honest" is unnecessary. But I've said that twice already...

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  22. Article excerpts by gvc · · Score: 4, Informative
    New Scientist:

    Could it really be true that nuclear fusion can be coaxed into action at room temperature, using only simple lab equipment? Most nuclear physicists don't think so, and dismiss Gordon's pitted piece of plastic as nothing more than the result of a badly conceived experiment.
    Naturwissenschaften article, last sentence:

    from a physicist's point of view, the theoretical arguments offered in this communication are pure speculation. It is hoped that future investigations will undoubtedly provide a clearer picture of the nuclear events taking place in the polarized Pd/D-D2O system.
  23. ohhhh.... THAT Cold Fusion.... by doktorjayd · · Score: 1

    *wipes brow*

    the other one needs to just go away.

  24. As with Fission... by SixFactor · · Score: 1

    ...it's all about probabilities.

    For my fellow nukes out there, remember cross-sections ? [Note to self: Wikipedia is like the duct tape of encyclopedias; there's nothing it can't do, but do use with caution]. If the experimenters can improve the probability of the reaction's occurrence, then sure, fusion can result. I mean, who would have thought that less than 100 years ago, setting up a pile of graphite bricks with bits of U metal at Stagg Field would have spawned an entire industry for energy and war. More power to these folks who test the boundaries... just try not to create black holes that sink to the center of the earth and consume it . :-D

    --
    Science never settles, never rests.
  25. energy from a wire and magnetic field? Brilliant by Locutus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's called Ampere's Law(http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mag netic/magcur.html ).
    Your tax dollars at work. ;-)

    I didn't bother with the article due to the subject matter being of little interest other than to show how money and minds are being wasted. IMO.

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  26. Doubtful by IvyKing · · Score: 3, Interesting
    About ten years ago, I met a couple of guys at NRAD (Navy Research And Development) in San Diego who were doubtful of the work being done on cold fusion. One of the them was making comments about dadiation being detected with some ancient technology (e.g. electroscopes) but not with more modern radiation detectors.


    The most amusing comment was that they were able to recreate Fleischman and Pons 'excess energy' - but pointed out that the palladium electrodes became more resistive when absorbing hydrogen and that they were using constant current power supplies (hint: Fleischman and Pons weren't monitoring the power supply voltage).

    1. Re:Doubtful by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      Yep, that was amusing. Now I'm interested in how poorly-monitored power supplies can produce measureable quantities of tritium.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    2. Re:Doubtful by IvyKing · · Score: 1
      I'd believe they're creating fusion if they produce measurable amounts of 3He. At low energies, D(D,n)3He is about as likely as D(D,p)T - in other words, they should be producing shitloads of neutrons.


      Tritium is found in most sources of water. Just about any process used for enriching deuterium will also likely be equally as good for enriching tritium.

  27. Linked article = lies, damn lies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now, I am certainly not a nuclear physicist. But the link from the headline was just plain wrong. The paper titled
    "Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles"
    As linked from slashdot only goes to an erratum for the paper:
    "Evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd lattice"

    I hope nobody actually paid $32 for the former, which is a 1-page mention of an overlooked reference to the latter. The latter paper, which properly comes from "Volume 92, Number 8 / August, 2005" of the same journal, is 4 pages long.

    I wish an editor would have caught that one. Its rather silly to get excited about an erratum rather than the actual paper.

  28. Re:energy from a wire and magnetic field? Brillian by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    Really? I don't recall the part of Ampere's Law that mentions the production of energetic subatomic particles. That's what this story is about. They aren't claiming excess energy production. That was in the SUMMARY.

  29. Theory by Darth+Cider · · Score: 3, Informative

    Pons and Fleischmann didn't begin with lab experiments but with a theory, that protons packed together under intense pressure would have a quantum probability of fusing, similar to the way that electrons tunnel. Palladium soaks up hydrogen (that's why it is used) and inside a palladium electrode, the hydrogen is forced by electric charge to be highly pressurized. Lab experiments have verified that funny things happen, resembling nuclear fusion, but to say there is no plausible theory as to why is just plain wrong.

  30. in case you were wondering the Navy's connection.. by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

    right now China has made us look like asses by very effectively using very old tech (diesel-run subs) to sneak up on US carrier groups a couple times. They charge up massive batteries with the diesel engines, then can run for a while completely silent, and at the same temp as their environment.

    We were brainiacs and went to nuclear power for many of our more important subs, which run very *hot*, even if they are silent. They can be seen easily due to their thermal footprint.

    Cold fusion, therefore, would be a way to have the diesel benefits, without having to surface frequently to recharge. A completely silent sub that can stay down for very long periods of time, with no thermal footprint...what, other than cold fusion, could possibly provide such a thing? Unless they could train some whales, and make some harnesses...

  31. Not unexpected. by Entropius · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Keep in mind that the purpose of military R&D isn't to develop working products; it's to get funding to continue work. This is especially true for the pseudoprivate military contractors like Boeing and Raytheon, but also partly true for groups like Spawar... who tend to be less greedy but also less concerned with actually making something that works. Military R&D labs and contractors don't manufacture products; they manufacture grants.

    Saying "They must be on to something, because they're still doing the research" isn't valid, because they're only still doing the research because they can get money for it.

    I had an engineering professor who once worked on Reagan's Star Wars program. He admitted that everyone in his team knew for a fact, based on sound science, that what they were doing would never work ... but they kept at it, because they were getting paid to do it by people unconcerned with whether or not it *would* work.

  32. The sailor died by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    so they can't, sorry. BTW, the sailor was also the policeman.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  33. Key: Output Energy Exceeds Input Energy by reporter · · Score: 1
    The key for this experiment is whether the output energy is greater than the input energy. If the former exceeds the latter, then some experimentation may harness the excess energy.

    Does anyone know how the output energy compares to the input energy for this military experiment?

  34. It MUST be true, they have a PICTURE... by dpbsmith · · Score: 1

    ...of the very piece of CR-39 plastic that detected the atomic particles. And it even has a genuine Roosevelt dime next to it. What more proof could you want?

    No, wait, it's only a piece of CR-39 plastic like the one that detected the atomic particles. Never mind.

  35. Budget by mdsolar · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, the budget that funded this paper was a few thousand dollars a year of discretionary funds http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm#ee. One of the main contributions of Navy labs to this field is metalurgical skills. There has been actual funding from time to time but for the most part people work on this on their own time.
    --
    Go solar sooner: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  36. Re:Key: Output Energy Exceeds Input Energy by mdsolar · · Score: 4, Informative

    At this point, they are not aiming for net energy production. Their two main advances are to 1) use codeposition to get deutrium loading from the beginning and 2) using a detector that can fit within the experiment. The first advance means that the effects are seen just about every time, and the second means that the background has less of an effect on detection, particularly if charged particles are involved since these have trouble escaping the experimental setup owing to Compton losses. Getting more power out than in is not really the basic measure though. The power out so far is heat, so you want quite an excess before you can turn that back into something usable.
    --
    Energy out from the Sun: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  37. POLYWELL IS COLD FUSION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry to break it to you, after you gave us all those sources on why cold fusion can't work, but the polywell is cold fusion too.

    1. Re:POLYWELL IS COLD FUSION by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, it's not.

      Polywell operates by creating a converging potential well of tens of thousands of volts and dropping ions into it. At roughly 11,000 degrees kelvin per electron volt that's one HELL of a hot spot.

      Tens of kilovolts, on the other hand, are easy to handle - in a near vacuum. The trick is to achieve sufficient DENSITY in that near vacuum and keep the particles at that temperature and pressure for enough TIME to end up with more fusion energy harvested than you put in to set uop the system.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  38. Theory exists by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Correction: We don't have an accepted theoretical framework. I've certainly heard talks where such a framework is proposed, and the codeposition particle sizes in the present experiment are anticipated by theory, but it is still much too soon to say if one theory or another is correct, or if any existing theories are adequate. But, I think you are right that this is a more exciting area to dig in.
    --
    Hot fusion now! http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

    1. Re:Theory exists by VoidCrow · · Score: 1

      Thank you... can you provide some links?

    2. Re:Theory exists by PermanentMarker · · Score: 1

      Well that would probaply in string theory :))
      I mean there are so many versions of it, no one understands it but it exists, amazingly i think.

      So you put a string made of paladium into water..

      --
      I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
    3. Re:Theory exists by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      Sure: http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html has mostly experimental links but you might look at things by S. Chubb (NRL) or P.L. Hagelstein (MIT) who are kind of rivals. Chubb's work tends to be towards coherence in the presence of boundy conditions looking especially at a low branching ratio D+D->He4 symetric reation while Hagelstein tends to take a quantum tunneling approach.

  39. Re:Key: Output Energy Exceeds Input Energy by h2g2bob · · Score: 1

    The key for this experiment is whether the output energy is greater than the input energy.
    No it's not. This is an unexpected result, according to the standard models. The key to the experiment is improving those models, and hence our understanding of the world.
  40. Re:energy from a wire and magnetic field? Brillian by Locutus · · Score: 1

    They are reporting on the reproducible detection of highly energetic charged particles from a wire coated in palladium-deuterium and subjected to either an electric or a magnetic field.


    As stated, I didn't bother to read the article and so I'm only commenting on the /. summary. I also thought that electron flow was the movement of electrons and electrons were part of an atom( sub-atomic maybe ) and had a charge. THAT lead me to the comment regarding Ampere's Law of electron flow in a wire induced by a changing magnetic field because it sounds like "energetic charged particles" to me. ;-)

    LoB
    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  41. Article Erratum by gvc · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Naturwissenschaften authors published an erratum in a later issue stating that the effect they had observed was explained by the following paper, of which they were unaware: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces

  42. Per Bussard's video given at google campus... by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 1

    His test rigs were 1/8th scale, and he did not have enough power and or other elements
    for 'steady state' operation. Doing the work without steady operation is tedious and
    possibly missing some key elements of the process.

    The Hirsch-Farnsworth device held the record for its energy levels for a long while,
    Bussard's exceeded this by quite a bit and shows great promise.

    The video is long, and he can be a bit monotone at times, but his brilliance
    is undeniable and verifiable thru the video and elsewhere.

    DARPA funded the project for a good many years til it got visibility,
    then ppl working the ITER's got wind of it and had its funding killed.

    Some of the ppl working on ITER who have homes and families no doubt will
    post here against Bussard in the interest of protecting their families
    and homes, and lives.

    I can't say I blame them, but perhaps they should look at the big picture
    of what it would do for the entire world if this came to fruition.

    Grid based IEC devices like wisconsin's are limited due to the grid,
    he discusses the theory of this in the video, and shows that he
    managed a visible "wiffle ball" as he calls it in one of his experiments.

    I can't say he will succeed beyond a shadow of a doubt, but his peers
    have a great deal of respect for his ability and progress thus far.

    In fact the navy allowed him to take all the equipment they purchsed for
    him over the years and donate it to private corporation of his choice.

    It just happens to be the same ppl that built Spaceship One.

    --
    google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
  43. Science Journalism by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

    Science journalism has some... problems. It's unfortunate really, because their often ludicrous claims, contrasted with the steady, gradual, cumulative nature of real research, creates an impression in the public mind that scientists have no goddam idea what they're doing.

  44. He quoted as far as he can extrapolate. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Basically, he's saying "I think I know enough to budget a commercially interesting fusion power source". That's a big claim. But there's a smaller phase 1 if you only want to fund that; he doesn't need $200M to push the frontiers of science.

    He doesn't want to rebuild exactly what broke last time - if nothing else, he'd like to fix it so it won't break!

    But $100K isn't going to be enough to learn anything.

    The fact that the fusor generates fusion is no mystery to anyone; this isn't like cold fusion. The question is, can it be scaled up and can the losses be kept down to tolerable levels. That's why there's a minimum scale required to be interesting.

    And I do seem to recall from the presentation that he needs a good-sized vacuum chamber that won't mess up the magnetic fields too much. The fusion happens in the middle of the cuboctahedron, but the particles circulate in and out. (The need to make the magnet's surfaces exactly parallel to the magnetic field lines so the plasma doesn't hit them and cool is the big discovery he made.)

    So it's not quite tabletop equipment we're talking about.

  45. Energy, Temperature and "cold" fusion. by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

    What many people don't seem to realise (and indeed something I missed myself when I was playing around with a copputer simulation of Stimulated Raman Scattering in inertial confinement fusion as part of my undergraduate degree) is that temperture is not just the average of the kinetic energy of the particles involved. Consider what woudl happen if you fire a bullet at a very high speed. The average kinetic energy of the particles in the bullet is quite high, but seen from the rest frame of the bullet they only move due to thermal vibrations. It is the velocity of hydrogen nuclei relative to one another that matters. In a plasma these velocities are due to the high temperature, and it is therefore very hot. However, there isn't any particular reason why you couldn't carefully fire the nuclei against one another in a particle accelerator. In such a case, you could accelerate all the nuclei to pretty much the same velocity, and it wouldn't be "hot" in the thermal sense. If you do it with a fusion reaction that doesn't produce neutrons you can even extract the kinetic energy of the resulting particles directly, circumventing the carnot limit of efficiency because you don't let the energy get converted into heat. In practice there are all kinds of reasons why such a scheme is not practical, and a hot plasma confined in a magnetic field is the most promising way to generate power, but it is far from the only plausible way ( at least from a theoretical point of view). As for the polywell scheme it is nonsense. If you are to confine a plasma using a magnetic field you will need a very strong field to avoid heat losses, period. You can confine a plasma fairly easily ( a flourescent light tube manages just fine ) but to be useful as a power source it has to do so at a sufficiently high density, and more importantly, with low energy losses to the surroundings. If you try to use a weak magnetic field your plasma will end up with a lowe density and large surface area, meaning it will rapidly lose energy to the surroundings. Furthermore, even if you manage to confine it ( as modern reactors do ) that is only the start of your problems. Once the reaction actually gets going you will see your vessel exposed to neutron radiation even stronger than what you have in the core of a traditional nuclear powerplant. Now in a traditional nuclear reactor this is not a [show stopping] problem because the coolant, moderator, nuclear fuel, and controll rods all soak up a whole lot of neutrons. In a fusion reactor you have a fairly empety vacume chamber, and your reactor vessel, magnets, hydrogen injection system, divertor, temperature sensors etc are all directly exposed to the hottest plasma in the solar system ( yes that includes the core of the sun ). The polywell scheme hasn't even managed to achieve fusion rates similar to those used in traditional tabletop devices ( yes they exists ) that the Oil industry use for prospecting. Even if he could get his scheme to confine the plasma, he has not proposed any way to get the fusion products out of the plasma, how to deal with the neutron radiation, nor how to make it produce enough excess power to be useful as a powerplant. In sumary, it goes. "I think this might work, but I can't give details as to why, I think I saw 3 neutrons (there are 10^23 nuclei in 1 gram of hydrogen ) but I can't show you how I did it because my device is broken. Please give me some money." Tabletop fusion is easy ( easy enough that teenagres do it in their basements ) making a practical power source out of it is a completely different thing.

    1. Re:Energy, Temperature and "cold" fusion. by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      Hey, it's really nice to find someone knowledgeable about fusion. I agree that the engineering challenges are likely very difficult or impossible to overcome, far from what Bussard is saying. For example, I have no idea how the magnets are suppose to survive for any reasonable length of time when only 1.5m away from a 100 megawatt fusion source, with nothing but empty space in between. I would want to hear about potential solutions to those kinds of engineering problems before putting up $200M, even though $200M is relatively cheap. I'm a total noob at fusion - I watched the Google video, so now I'm an expert :-P - so please correct me.

      Some of your statements confuse me. The polywell device isn't based on magnetic inertial confinement. Magnetism isn't the force used to trap ions - an electric field is used instead. It's inertial electrostatic confinement fusion (IEC), just like a Farnsworth table-top fusor, where the ions are accelerated to high speeds and collided in the middle. It's much more like the ideal case you stated where particles are accelerated against each other, and Bussard also wants to use the boron reaction you refer to which doesn't generate neutrons directly, and where we could use electrified grids to stop the fusion products, directly converting their momentum to electricity. The main difference from a Farnsworth fusor is that the grid is removed as an obstacle, so you don't have ion losses due to collisions with the grid. The ions are electrically attracted to oscillate through the center tens of thousands of times before a collision. They don't hit the magnets because their oscillation radius is less than the distance from the center of the machine to the magnets. The magnetic field has nothing to do with containing the ions, but are instead there to contain the high energy electrons which are there to attract the oscillating ions. Without ion losses to the grid like a Farnsworth fusor, are there any theoretical reasons a high ratio of power out to power in can't be achieved? From my poorly informed point of view, it seems that engineering problems dominate. If I'm ill-informed, I'd love to hear about it, and I'd love to hear why "in practice there are all kinds of reasons why such a scheme is not practical." Thanks!

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    2. Re:Energy, Temperature and "cold" fusion. by dch24 · · Score: 1
      Standard disclaimer. IANA Particle Physicist, so you may be more credentialed than me. But Bussard's work answers your questions.

      As for the polywell scheme it is nonsense.
      Your argument breaks down into two claims:

      (1) confinement and losses:

      If you are to confine a plasma using a magnetic field you will need a very strong field to avoid heat losses, period.

      (2) neutron / gamma ray secondary effects on the reactor:

      vessel exposed to neutron radiation even stronger than what you have in the core of a traditional nuclear powerplant

      I believe Bussard addresses both points in his Google Tech Talk. The overall organization of the talk is to point out how his team found a way to improve the yield of the reactor to the point that the confinement is efficient and the losses don't outweigh the energy output.

      And Bussard specifically identifies the yield using P-11B fusion. He did D-D fusion in the prototype, but P-11B fusion solves the problem with high-energy neutrons.

      Even if he could get his scheme to confine the plasma, he has not proposed any way to get the fusion products out of the plasma, how to deal with the neutron radiation, nor how to make it produce enough excess power to be useful as a powerplant.
      The helium coming out of the D-D fusion is removed by an external filtration process (centrifuge). He talks about it in the Google Tech Talk. The same would seem to apply in a P-11B reactor, although he doesn't explicitly state how he would design that type of reactor. The confinement and potential for excess power generation is the focus of the talk.

      In summary, I'd like to go into the specifics with you. Can you please post a follow-up?
    3. Re:Energy, Temperature and "cold" fusion. by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      It would be really nice to go into specifics, if he'll reply. However, I think you're answers are basically correct. He listed the common objects I've read on the Internet that are posted by those who have not actually listened to the Google talk. I would be very interested in hearing more about specific problems that either were poorly addressed in the talk, or additional problems not mentioned. For example, how the heck do you put super conducting magnets 1.5m away from a tiny spot that's generating 100MW of fusion power, without the thing melting away in seconds? There can be nothing between the magnets and the core but vacuum, and SFAIK reaction products fly out way to fast to deflect and randomly in all directions. Do the helium nuclei simply fly through the magnets without causing damage or disruption? Also, how many volts are we talking about needing to stop the ions? Will these grids make the machine smaller or larger than a football field, and does it all have to be in a vacuum? How will the arcing between the containment walls and the reactor be stopped? My own intuition is that any set of electrified grids that can stop microscopic amounts of ions per second yet generate 100MW while doing so is: that grid will have to be unreasonably huge and apply totally insane voltages. So, is fusion power just a nice theory, or are there practical solutions to these engineering problems?

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
  46. Re:in case you were wondering the Navy's connectio by BCW2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Have you ever served on a sub? I question your knowledge. The way you detect a nuclear sub is still by noise, normally the cooling pumps for the reactor. Cold fusion would eliminate those pumps and the noise that goes with it. A diesel electric has always been the quitest boat under the sea and anyone can sneak up on a surface task force. We used to joke about the skimmers pinging away like they could find something with active sonar, what a joke! We could hear them pinging over 50 miles away, with that kind of head start did they stand a chance of finding us? Hell NO!. Every exercise with a USN task force or RN ended with us inside the screen and execise shots passing under the flagship. Nobody ever tracked us thermally because it mixes with the surrounding water to fast. Now a P3 with a MAD unit (magnetic anomally detector) was a bitch to get away from! That was the only thing that could ever find us when we didn't want to be found. The Soviets were always 3 generations behind in quieting and sonar.
    signed - a cold war sub sailor

    --
    Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  47. They still have to come up for air... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, diesel subs are typically quieter than our lovely US nuclear models, but have the limitation of needing to surface/come to PD to charge batteries and air flasks. The nuke boats have the distinct advantage of being able to stay submerged until they run out of food - or, more importantly, coffee.

  48. There is in fact a theoretical framework for LENRs by lewisglarsen · · Score: 1

    Contrary to most of the existing "cold fusion" scientists, our privately held company, Lattice Energy LLC, believes that certain well-established anomalous experimental results (e.g. He-4 production, excess heat, transmutations) that have frequently been reported by researchers in the field since 1989 are best explained by invoking the weak interaction, not strong interaction fusion or fission. Our theoretical model of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions is outlined in four readily available papers listed below: "Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces" Eur. Phys. J. C 46, 107-111 (2006) "Absorption of Nuclear Gamma Radiation by Heavy Electrons on Metallic Hydride Surfaces" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0509269 "Nuclear Abundances in Metallic Hydride Electrodes of Electrolytic Chemical Cells" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0602472 "Theoretical standard model rates of proton to neutron conversions near metallic hydride surfaces" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/nucl-th/0608059 Importantly, no "new physics" is involved here, merely an extension of collective effects to electroweak theory within the context of the Standard Model. Thus, the phenomenon is not strong interaction "cold fusion" and never was! More papers are in preparation and will be uploaded to the Cornell physics arXiv server when they are ready. More recently, a short article by veteran science reporter Jon Van titled, "Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power," published in the Chicago Tribune last Monday, April 16. It can be found on the web at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140 065apr16,0,1831279.story?coll=chi-business-hed L. Larsen, CEO of Lattice Energy LLC and Prof. A. Widom, Dept. of Physics, Northeastern University

  49. New Scientist Article by drewski3420 · · Score: 1

    HEADLINE: Cold fusion rides again;
    Physicists scoff, but enthusiasts say they now have hard evidence that proves room temperature fusion is real. Bennett Daviss takes a closer look

    BYLINE: Bennett Daviss.

    Bennett Daviss is a science writer in New Hampshire

    BODY:

    FROM a distance, the plastic wafer Frank Gordon is proudly displaying looks like an ordinary microscope slide. Yet to Gordon it is hugely more significant than that. If he is to be believed, the pattern of pits embedded in this unassuming sliver of polymer provides confirmation for the idea that nuclear fusion reactions can be made to happen at room temperature, using simple lab equipment. It's a dramatic claim, because nuclear fusion promises virtually limitless energy.

    Gordon's plastic wafer is the product of the latest in a long line of "cold fusion" experiments conducted at the US navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center in San Diego, California. What makes this one stand out is that it has been published in the respected peer-reviewed journal Naturwissenschaften , which counts Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg and Konrad Lorenz among its eminent past authors (DOI: 10.1007/s00114-007-0221-7). Could it really be true that nuclear fusion can be coaxed into action at room temperature, using only simple lab equipment? Most nuclear physicists don't think so, and dismiss Gordon's pitted piece of plastic as nothing more than the result of a badly conceived experiment. So who is right?

    The notion that cold fusion might be possible burst onto the scene in March 1989. That's when chemists Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, working at the University of Utah, announced that they had run a table-top electrolysis experiment in which a fusion reaction took place, producing more energy than it consumed. A world of endless, virtually free fuel seemed to be in the offing - but not for long. Fleischmann and Pons's results quickly proved elusive in other research labs. The hapless pair were laughed out of mainstream science, and most nuclear physicists since have refused to give the slightest credence to the idea.

    Not everyone gave up on cold fusion, however. Electrochemists Pamela Mosier-Boss and Stanislaw Szpak at the San Diego centre's navigation and applied sciences department were intrigued. Fortunately, so was Gordon, their boss, who provided limited funding for experiments. Mosier-Boss and Szpak have now run hundreds of tests at weekends and during their spare moments, and have published more than a dozen papers in various peer-reviewed journals (New Scientist , 29 March 2003, p 36).

    Typically, these table-top experiments have involved lowering an electrode made of the precious metal palladium into a solution of an inert salt dissolved in "heavy water" - in which a large proportion of the hydrogen atoms are of the element's heavy isotope deuterium. In deuterium, the atomic nucleus contains a neutron in addition to the usual single proton.

    When an electric current is passed through the solution, deuterium atoms start to pack into spaces in the palladium's lattice-like atomic framework. Eventually, after a period of days or weeks, there is approximately one deuterium atom for each palladium atom, at which point things start to happen.

    Quite what happens or why isn't clear. Whatever it is appears to release more energy, as heat, than the experiment consumes. Proponents of cold fusion claim that the excess energy comes from a nuclear fusion reaction involving the deuterium nuclei.

    To get a fusion reaction going normally requires temperatures of millions of degrees, to give the nuclei enough energy to overcome the repulsion between the positive charges of their protons. The result is that two deuterium nuclei combine to produce either tritium - an even heavier hydrogen isotope - plus a free proton, or an atom of helium-3 and a free neutron. Either way the reaction also liberates a large amount of energy.

    There is, however, no consensus for how cold fusion might work, and with researc

  50. There is in fact a theoretical framework for LENRs by lewisglarsen · · Score: 1

    Contrary to most of the existing "cold fusion" scientists, our privately held company, Lattice Energy LLC, believes that certain well-established anomalous experimental results (e.g. He-4 production, excess heat, transmutations) that have frequently been reported by researchers in the field since 1989 are best explained by invoking the weak interaction, not strong interaction fusion or fission. Our theoretical model of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions is outlined in four readily available papers listed as follows: "Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces" Eur. Phys. J. C 46, 107-111 (2006) "Absorption of Nuclear Gamma Radiation by Heavy Electrons on Metallic Hydride Surfaces" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0509269 [arxiv.org] "Nuclear Abundances in Metallic Hydride Electrodes of Electrolytic Chemical Cells" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0602472 [arxiv.org] "Theoretical standard model rates of proton to neutron conversions near metallic hydride surfaces" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/nucl-th/0608059 [arxiv.org] Importantly, no "new physics" is involved here, merely an extension of collective effects to electroweak theory within the context of the Standard Model. Thus, the phenomenon is not strong interaction "cold fusion" and never was! More papers are in preparation and will be uploaded to the Cornell physics arXiv server when they are ready. More recently, a short article by veteran science reporter Jon Van titled, "Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power," published in the Chicago Tribune on Monday, April 16. It can be found on the web at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140 065apr16,0,1831279.story?coll=chi-business-hed [chicagotribune.com] L. Larsen, CEO of Lattice Energy LLC and Prof. A. Widom, Dept. of Physics, Northeastern University

  51. There is in fact a theoretical framework for LENRs by lewisglarsen · · Score: 1

    Contrary to most of the existing "cold fusion" scientists, our privately held company, Lattice Energy LLC, believes that certain well-established anomalous experimental results (e.g. He-4 production, excess heat, transmutations) that have frequently been reported by researchers in the field since 1989 are best explained by invoking the weak interaction, not strong interaction fusion or fission. Our theoretical model of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions is outlined in four readily available papers listed as follows: "Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces" Eur. Phys. J. C 46, 107-111 (2006) "Absorption of Nuclear Gamma Radiation by Heavy Electrons on Metallic Hydride Surfaces" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0509269 [arxiv.org] "Nuclear Abundances in Metallic Hydride Electrodes of Electrolytic Chemical Cells" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0602472 [arxiv.org] "Theoretical standard model rates of proton to neutron conversions near metallic hydride surfaces" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/nucl-th/0608059 [arxiv.org] Importantly, no "new physics" is involved here, merely an extension of collective effects to electroweak theory within the context of the Standard Model. Thus, the phenomenon is not strong interaction "cold fusion" and never was! More papers are in preparation and will be uploaded to the Cornell physics arXiv server when they are ready. More recently, a short article by veteran science reporter Jon Van titled, "Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power," published in the Chicago Tribune on Monday, April 16. It can be found on the web at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140 065apr16,0,1831279.story?coll=chi-business-hed [chicagotribune.com] L. Larsen, CEO of Lattice Energy LLC and Prof. A. Widom, Dept. of Physics, Northeastern University

  52. There is in fact a theoretical framework for LENRs by lewisglarsen · · Score: 1

    Contrary to most of the existing "cold fusion" scientists, our privately held company, Lattice Energy LLC, believes that certain well-established anomalous experimental results (e.g. He-4 production, excess heat, transmutations) that have frequently been reported by researchers in the field since 1989 are best explained by invoking the weak interaction, not strong interaction fusion or fission. Our theoretical model of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions is outlined in four readily available papers listed as follows: "Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces" Eur. Phys. J. C 46, 107-111 (2006) "Absorption of Nuclear Gamma Radiation by Heavy Electrons on Metallic Hydride Surfaces" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0509269 [arxiv.org] [arxiv.org] "Nuclear Abundances in Metallic Hydride Electrodes of Electrolytic Chemical Cells" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0602472 [arxiv.org] [arxiv.org] "Theoretical standard model rates of proton to neutron conversions near metallic hydride surfaces" http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/nucl-th/0608059 [arxiv.org] [arxiv.org] Importantly, no "new physics" is involved here, merely an extension of collective effects to electroweak theory within the context of the Standard Model. Thus, the phenomenon is not strong interaction "cold fusion" and never was! More papers are in preparation and will be uploaded to the Cornell physics arXiv server when they are ready. More recently, a short article by veteran science reporter Jon Van titled, "Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power," published in the Chicago Tribune on Monday, April 16. It can be found on the web at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140 [chicagotribune.com] 065apr16,0,1831279.story?coll=chi-business-hed [chicagotribune.com] L. Larsen, CEO of Lattice Energy LLC and Prof. A. Widom, Dept. of Physics, Northeastern University

  53. Re:in case you were wondering the Navy's connectio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Snorkeling subs are pretty loud, and they have to charge for many hours typically, and even then battery lifetime is limited. Subs like the Gotaland are really difficult for convoy groups to detect when not snorkelling, but that particular design is really meant for the Baltic Sea, and is not at all suitable for blue water operations of any sort.

    Much more interesting are the Siemens polymer fuel cell submarines -- the Germans have built shaped LOX/LH tanks on the outside of the pressure hull for safety reasons (there are also some anti-mine properties), but still manage full gas flow to the fuel cells, so there is no real need to carry conventional batteries at all, leading to a substantial weight and space savings. Operating durations are on the order of weeks, although there is scope for at-sea refuelling in forthcoming designs, as well as better ducting and jetting of the drive, greater use of non-ferrous components and flatter external surfaces.

    Depending on how much of this finds its way into the forthcoming French and British SSBNs, the various European NATO countries will have astonishingly quiet, manoeuvrable, long-range and fast underwater platforms they can stuff to the gills with a variety of missiles (cruise and ballistic) and park anywhere they want.

    We could hear them pinging over 50 miles away, with that kind of head start did they stand a chance of finding us?


    The point was probably to keep you 51 nm away... it's a bit of a placebo though, not actual area denial.
  54. Just a little bit of background to add by sbkrivit · · Score: 1

    Bennett Daviss' article in New Scientist on May 3 is a follow-up piece to the in-depth article on the SPAWAR San Diego research by Steven Krivit and Daviss published in New Energy Times in November.

    Apparently, New Scientist chose to neglect the term "low energy nuclear reactions," which those of us observing, and working in the field have now adopted.

    The term "cold fusion" was never chosen by Fleischmann and Pons; it was wished on them by the press. It was and is a poor descriptor for the phenomenon. The concept of fusion remains highly speculative, a variety of phenomena are clearly not fusion, and then there is the Widom-Larsen not-fusion theory. (http://www.newenergytimes.com/wltheory)

    Related New Energy Times stories: Report on the 2006 Naval Science and Technology Partnership Conference (Sept. 10, 2006) (http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET18.htm#FRO M... Extraordinary Evidence (Nov. 10, 2006) (http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm#ee) Extraordinary Courage: Report on Some LENR Presentations at the 2007 American Physical Society Meeting (March 16, 2007) (http://newenergytimes.com/news/2007/NET21.htm#aps r... Charged Particles for Dummies: A Conversation With Lawrence P.G. Forsley (May 10, 2007) (http://newenergytimes.com/news/2007/NET22.htm)

    Steven Krivit Editor, New Energy Times

  55. Re:in case you were wondering the Navy's connectio by BCW2 · · Score: 1

    "The point was probably to keep you 51 nm away... it's a bit of a placebo though, not actual area denial."

    We got inside the screen every time. Whether against a U.S. Task Group, NATO group, or Soviet, didn't matter. They couldn't find us if we didn't want to be found. We had to install a noisemaker for exercises, played tapes of Red boats through a 500W Mcintosh amp and still got inside the screen. When the Kiev first left the Black Sea and came into the Med, we went underneath and did a hull survey, photographed every square inch. She was only escorted by 5 Destroyers, 2 Cruisers and 3 subs. We did not get caught!

    --
    Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.