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No Wine for Dell Ubuntu Users, Says Shuttleworth
yuna49 writes "News from last week, but still worth noting: Mark Shuttleworth told eWeek in a May 3rd interview that Dell will not include open-source software such as Wine with the PCs it plans to bundle with Ubuntu Linux. Says Shuttleworth: 'I do not want to position Ubuntu and Linux as a cheap alternative to Windows ... While Linux is an alternative to Windows, it is not cheap Windows. Linux has its own strengths, and users should want it because of those strengths and not because it's a cheap copy of Windows ... Often we see proprietary software companies just completely fail to understand not only the motivations of the Linux community, but also the processes. It's very practical, there's a way to get things done, and it's different. The VMware guys have really engaged with us completely and worked to the agenda set by the Linux community, which is not an ideological agenda but a practical one.' Does that mean Wine won't even be listed in the package manager?"
Linux has its own strengths, and users should want it because of those strengths and not because it's a cheap copy of Windows
And one of those strengths is that you can still install WINE after you buy the computer despite the decisions made by a large company or single individual.
Um.. so it's not included? Big deal..
apt-get install wine
done...
What's the problem?
----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
Every time I read something about Mark Shuttleworth, I become just a little bit more of a fan.
While I have nothing against WINE—indeed, I use it myself for several things—I have to agree that it's just not right for distribution by a company like Dell. There's an art to getting it set up and configured, and while it's good, there are still a lot of applications that either don't work at all or don't quite work right in it.
This is a massive problem, and could seriously backfire on Ubuntu. If people buy a Dell machine with Ubuntu and WINE installed thinking that it will run Windows software, when something doesn't work right (and there will be things that don't work right), the average consumers will get mad at the wrong people: Ubuntu and WINE, not Microsoft. The focus will be on how Ubuntu sucks at running Windows software, not on how Ubuntu rocks at running Linux software.
I see here a golden opportunity for desktop Linux to make major inroads with the public and take a significant step towards advancing free open source software. I also see here a golden opportunity to destroy the reputation of desktop Linux as a viable alternative to Windows and give people the impression that free open source software really sucks. Don't you think for a second that Microsoft is going to be trying their damned best to see that Linux on Dell machines gives people a bad taste for open source software.
I have to give Mark Shuttleworth a pat on the back for seeing the big picture, for sacrificing trying to please everyone for the sake of making sure that this is done right, and that the software that people get is great, not just "it works good enough with a few hours of tweaking."
It's their choice, and I'm ok with it. Other distros also add or remove support for certain packages based on ideological positions (non free software, no binaries, stuff like that), so ubuntu and Dell can very well agree to do this to promote that way of considering GNU/Linux.
And besides, it's still ubuntu, so nothing prevents those who MUST have wine to add a rep to their sources.list and get it somewhere else.
"Luck is my middle name," said Rincewind, indistinctly. "Mind you, my first name is Bad." -- Terry Pratchett
In order for them to control what apps are available, this makes me wonder if they are going to do a respository fork. So when you apt-get install it's not coming from ubuntu.com but ubuntu.dell.com or something like that. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
It's built on wine, they feed back into wine, and it allows me to run the few remaining software apps I need to that are only available for Windows. I also still run Microsoft Office under Crossover but am almost always now using OpenOffice instead. Using Crossover, I hardly ever boot into Windows any more (yeah, I am set up dual boot still...).
No, he probably didn't want to include WINE because it will make Ubuntu bad because WINE is too hard for most novice users or a beginner to get working properly...if you make promises that it can run windows software to people, then you have to be able to be able to deliver on that.
In a world of acronyms, the words are the real victims.
Any Linuzzz distro can be obtained for free, so just, download the packages you need and... done.
It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think we need a rule: "No Wine for Ubuntu users." That might make them less likely to think up names like "Breezy Badger" and "Dapper Drake". Although perhaps extend the rule to Beer, Liquor, and perhaps Shrooms as well?
Apology to Ubuntu forum.
I haven't installed MS software on my computer for about seven years now. People ask me if I got MS Office working on it; it is the first thing they try when they install linux.
...
"I haven't tried it."
People find that awkward.
Also people often say that 'app X does not work the same as commercial product X'.
Sure, intercompatability is pushed from the open side because of demand. But
LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS!
People find that hard to understand.
I think this step by DELL + Ubuntu is a step in the right direction of bringing that understanding.
If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
it's because you haven't faced up to the reality: Wine isn't very good.
Sure you can make some programs work, sometimes. And sometimes when applications do work under Wine they act horribly, weird, strange, lots of font issues. It's not that the wine developers havent tried, it's just that emulating a Piece of Shit like Windows is nearly fucking impossible.. nobody can emulate the development hysteria that went into building windows. I don't fault the Wine devs, they tried mimic microsofts bullshit, but failed...
It's a work in progress, I know... but now Vista is out now.. and microsoft will release another POS of OS soon enough... they have no chance to keep up with the Redmond madness.
I've seen for a decade in my LUG what people go through when they try to use Linux as a 1:1 replacement for Windows. It's miserable. Linux should not be positioned as "like Windows but cheaper." (Especially since Dell's OEM deal with MS and crapware vendors means that a Linux system from Dell will probably cost exactly as much as a Windows system.) Mark S. is doing exactly the right thing here.
That said, I have the feeling that these things won't sell well at all. (Not that adding Wine would make much of a difference.) Be honest: what does Linux offer the average user that Windows doesn't? The main one is "won't get infected with crap."* That's great, but that's not enough. People have put up with crappy Windows systems for so long that they think it's normal to reinstall Windows periodically, or pay a neighborhood kid or local shop $50-150 to clean off the spyware every few months (if they even bother at all), and to buy a new computer every couple years when the one the old one gets slow. People are used to Windows. They fear change. "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't." We love Linux, but we know what's involved, and we understand what the million little differences are and why they're there. The rest of the world just thinks "this isn't working right." The result of all this is, Joe User will NOT be buying Ubuntu machines from Dell. Dell will sell a few, but not many, and there's a very good chance this program will be axed within 6-12 months.
* OS X offers this same benefit, plus it has the great iLife suite, gorgeous hardware, and unbeatable hardware/software integration. Not perfect, but miles ahead of anything else. That is a compelling reason to change, and I've seen a few people go from Windows to Mac, but even so, Windows has 90%+ share and will continue to dominate for quite a while.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
WINE isn't even in a default Ubuntu install. With or without Dell, Ubuntu does not ship with WINE. It never has. I hope it never does.
One gripe I have with the community is that we tend to oversell WINE. Even though the WINE team have made a lot of progress lately, I still find WINE to be an imperfect solution, at best. Knowledgeable users know this. But the community insists on preaching WINE to every Windows convert. This is counterproductive.
Rabid WINE advocacy builds unreasonably high expectations of 100% compatibility. This is not yet possible, and it is debatable whether this will ever be possible. New users don't appreciate the difficulty in the project, though. All they know is that NIFTY.EXE won't run. They resent the fact that they've been given "Broken Windows," rather than a "real OS."
This is not to say that I'm against the WINE project at all. Quite the contrary: the compatibility layer gives the Linux community an extra tool. But I cringe every time I see people treating WINE as some sort of panacea, rather than using it correctly as a tool of last resort.
Ahh, a package manager douche. I should do that to my machine every now and again. I know I leave some dependencies sitting out there when I remove some packages. Could be good for the old hard drive :-)
My Babylon
I completely agree with their decision. If you want Windows, buy Windows.
Linux needs to stand on its own merits. Running Linux to use your Windows apps would make Dell and Linux look bad by giving a bad user experience.
Wine as a Windows replacement is hard to set up, largely incompatible and the wrong solution for more than one or two applications.
Let Linux have a fair chance on the desktop without false expectations of running Windows applications. If that's not enough, then Linux isn't ready for mass market adoption.
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison
Good. Windows compatibility is one of the things that killed OS/2.
I've been running Ubuntu for some time now, I have even "spread the word" my installing it on a few poor students laptops when there windows installation has died and I couldn't be bothered to find the windows drivers for the laptops hardware. Most of the people I have installed Ubuntu for are happy with it right out of the box, once i've added Medibuntu so that it can play DVD's ofc.
However I personally like to play a few Windows games like Half-Life 2, World of Warcraft and Counter Strike and in order to do so i've had to "apt-get install wine". So I don't see how dell not including wine on the machines is a big deal, as it doesn't make there distribution any different from "plain" Ubuntu.
Dell are quite right not to install wine out of the box, as a user who can not "apt-get install wine" or if they have there own partial Dellbuntu mirror, adding the real Ubuntu software sources to apt, will have pretty limited luck getting it working anyway.
What I would find interesting is dell including a way to play copy protected dvd's out of the box, as to be that seems to be the one real problem with a default Ubuntu installation that people are likely to notice.
No wine for Dell users is actually a good Open-Source move so people wouldn't think they moved to Linux just as a replacement.
I have a dream! I have a dream, that one day, Linux users will be more then 50% of the people who use computers
I have a dream that people will not use Linux as a user-friendly OS, but actually use it's command-line, and learn how to use it to improve their performance.
I have a dream, that every new Windows user that had moved to Linux, would not connect to X as ROOT, and actually use the multi-user management like Linux was designed (unix-based).
I have many dreams though, with your help, it's possible. I know I do try to get more people to install Linux and use it correctly.
Spread the dreams!
Read and Comment at my BLOG
!!!
Imagine average joe user calling Dell because [insert Windows app] doesn't work in wine. Dell doesn't want that.
Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
Linux users prefer beer.
Some settling may occur during posting.
WINE isn't very good at running the latest and greatest (bloated) version of AutoCAD, but it runs most small applications very well. For example, I just installed a new version of a small concrete and masonry design app last week. Straight from the installer, everything worked, from the calculations, right down to the correct menu items being placed and all of the reports printing. I agree with Mark Shuttleworth about not making WINE part of the default install, but don't say the project is worthless. For people who need a to run small, packaged windows applications it's great.
I am an ex-windows-power-user, using exclusively Ubuntu on the desktop for about 6 months now for academic, home, and media center purposes. I might be in the market for a new Dell laptop with Ubuntu- except Ubuntu runs great on my old Pentium M laptop. Even compiz runs great on an intel 915. The only app I have ever successfully run under wine is Picasa, and someone else did all the work to make that fairly painless. It still sucks (colors, themes, file paths...)- Linux is not windows and should not try to be windows. With Ubuntu all the apps I've needed are there under System -> Administration -> Synaptic Package Manager: OpenOffice, Bibus, Inkscape, Scribus GIMP, Gnumeric, R... it all works and it is so refreshingly free of crass commercialism. No free trial versions with upgrade-offer popups, no ads, no need for spyware/virus software, my printer/camera/scanner software doesn't interrupt presentations asking for upgrades anymore. I can plug in an external hard drive and not wait while windows scans the whole thing for media files. The user is in control and that is the way it should be.
The reason to buy a Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed is not Windows related at all. It's all about hardware. A Dell desktop or notebook PC with Ubuntu pre-installed should work out of the box. The stuff we fight with any Linux distro, wireless drivers (although that's gotten much better with Feisty), suspend / hibernate not working, etc should not be an issue with the Dells.
My wife's XP box is 6+ years old, so I'm expecting it to die soon. She doesn't do anything on it that requires Windows, so her next computer will have Ubuntu on it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the Dells. The market for these (at least initially) is not newbies looking for their first Linux box, it's people that are already at least a little Linux savvy that want a new box with minimum hassle involved.
Pretty sure this is just Dell covering their ass, so as not to piss off Microsoft causing them to yank their licensing deals.
I think this is sorta like saying, effectively, that the new Dells won't ship with memory maxed out.... This doesn't preclude the consumer from maxing out memory after purchase, but Dell won't put the extra memory in there.
(crud... ignore the [ stuff in brackets ] )
The Admin and the Engineer
I have to agree with Mark on this one.
..... teaching a cat to bark will ultimately be a disappointing exercise. If your heart is dead set on something that barks, go and buy a dog. If you go for a cat, appreciate it for its felinity. Embrace the fact that it's not a dog, and enjoy how it can do things dogs can't do. It's really quite rare for anyone actually to need a cat with the ability to bark; most of the time you could get by with not barking, or borrow a real dog.
WINE isn't always easy to configure. I tried it once, didn't get very far, thought "sod it" and looked to native Linux applications instead. And I have to say, they've improved with every version I've tried. (In all probability, so has WINE, so you may have a better experience than I did).
The thing is
Also, what we tend to think of as "native Linux applications" can usually be persuaded to compile and run under Windows precisely because they are Open Source. (Windows applications probably could be got to compile and run under Linux -- if we only had the Source Code. But you don't very often see an Open Source project that started development on Windows and got ported to Mac and Linux -- usually, they start out being developed on Linux or BSD and get ported to Windows. I think that speaks volumes about the mentality of Windows developers.) Firefox/Thunderbird, OpenOffice.org, Gaim and Audacity probably would meet the requirements of 90% of Dell's customers, and of course are potentially available on both platforms. But Microsoft won't be happy at the thought of something taking marketshare from Outlook and Office; and I'm not sure the various advert-pushing IM networks are entirely thrilled about Gaim.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Well, the PC Decrapifyer makes short shrift of it: http://www.yorkspace.com/2006/08/62
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
One key comment that Mark makes in the interview is that he is for free software. By this I assume he means obtaining software development services for free (as opposed to support). I think all these debates about open source vs proprietary fail to see the big picture in sufficient detail. Let's think about this. The laws of economics and jurisprudence have not changed. What does a desire for free software really mean then? From a developer's standpoint, one implication is that a software developer's services have little value. Or perhaps it means the specific software under discussion has little value. Hmmm...that's definitely something to ponder. If it has little value then why bother with it anyway? But he was talking about software in a general sense so could that mean he's aiming for a situation in which all software has little value? Clearly software has value, particularly in new areas. Unfortunately technology by its very definition means change and while certain groups of developers are slapping themselves on the back for a job well done, the carpet is shifting as I type to a different direction.
So what exactly does he mean? We're in the software development business which requires defining things a bit more precisely kinda like in mathematics or law. Perhaps he means there is value in software and a developer's services, but the person who created it or provided those services will not be compensated. That's ok if that's what the provider intended. If not, it's unfair. If that's what the provider intended, then let's look into that provider with the added assumption that Shuttleworth is trying to create a top system. The individual provider of software development services is saying I am a software developer and I am giving away value for free. Then where is that value coming from? Perhaps someone is paying him or her for those services rendered elsewhere in sufficient amounts to allow him or her some downtime to give away software services of value. Or perhaps software development is just a hobby for the provider and he or she earns a living doing something else. That's all ok unless the developer's main employer isn't being shortchanged which is unfair. Perhaps he or she really believes there is little value in his or her software developing skills, which is a sad case. But how can that mode of working produce this top system on par with systems in which the developers are giving their all day in and day out? Software development regardless of open source or not can be hard to do and can take a lot of time to do right, especially when defining standards. Defining technology standards involves the subject of how humans with differing objectives communicate with each other at a basic level and that has not changed so we'll leave that to a different discussion. Suffice to say that time and time again folks who concentrate power have used this point splendidly. In fact, my prediction is that in the future all this massive communication mishaps occuring these days will quite naturally lead to the creation of a technology monopoly with an even stronger hold than Microsoft (maybe even an off-shoot of Microsoft like those feisty Standard Oil offshoots that are still shouting today, who knows). But, like I said, let's leave that discussion to a different day.
We can go on and on with this kind of analysis, but at the end I feel the conclusion from his goal is that (a) either software of inferior sustainable value is produced, (b) there has been too much value assigned to that particular line of software development in the marketplace, or (c) there is such massive altruism in the developer community to give so much software development value away for free. Let's leave (c) to a different discussion - I wish it's true but I'm not convinced of its sustainability. In (a) the system will not succeed in the market and we see this clearly on the desktop. The PC is basically a mass communication device and unless Ubuntu works very well with Microsoft file formats then forget it no matter how much it is d
Wine is one of the most important projects for Linux. The fact that a small project like Wine can run a big number of Windows software is just amazing. However, Wine has a bad reputation among Linux geeks who really don't understand how the world of the end user works.
I have used Linux for more than 10 years. I have never used anything else as a server. I am working at a company that produces software for Windows. That's what we do because our clients have always used Windows. However, we've been also keeping our options open by trying to tie our software as little as possible to Windows. So, a Linux version is possible. It's hard work but it's possible. It could be made in a few months, when the time is ripe.
We have 4000 clients who use Windows and only a few who ask for a Linux version. The demand is not high enough to warrant a native Linux version. Instead of porting, we concentrate on other features our clients want. There can't be more demand for a Linux version as our customers can't use Linux. They really DO need our software. There are NO alternatives whatsoever. There can't be other alternatives as it's not economically viable.
Our situation is not unique. There are hundreds of thousands of small software companies who only have Windows versions of their products. And tens of millions of people who depend on them every day.
What Wine brings is a possibility to even consider using Linux. We've started supporting Wine with our software. Thanks to that a few clients have started using LTSP. They are happy with the solution and that will slowly increate the usage of Linux among our customers. And when there are enough users, we'll have a possibility to start support a native Linux-version. But until then, Wine keeps our customers happy.
Bottom line is: Native Linux-versions of software is important but they can only be done when there is enough demand for Linux software.
Yep it's listed in there. What he meant of course is that you shouldn't market Linux as "Windows Lite", it's a Windows replacement in a sense yes, but don't market it that it can run Windows programs too. Wine is pretty good and it's list of compatible apps is always growing, but there are tweaks needed for many things and there are a lot of things it can't run. Definitely don't market to n00blets that it will run their Windows apps, that would be very unwise, but you might mention that Wine for Linux can run SOME Windows applications.
Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
Honestly, I think that the decision to not include WINE in the Dell-packaged Ubuntu install is a great idea. As many pointed out already, WINE is really a crapshoot application (at least in my experience). Some applications will work wonderfully (like Internet Explorer or Winamp), while others will not work at all (Microsoft Office, Photoshop, etc). I'm sure that if the application were more mature and had support for most applications, then it would be valuable to include it (and charge for it as well).
Plus, it's not like the option to install it disappears when you get a Linuxed Dell. There are still repos and other outlets that will make the software available, so it's really just up to the user as to whether he wants to try it or not. Then again, in a couple of months or years time when more people unfamiliar to the Linux platform start purchasing these laptops, there is a very small possibility that they would have an interest in using it as supposed to, say, VMWare (free).
On top of THAT, Ubuntu doesn't even install WINE by default so this is a non-issue to begin with.
That sales in France won't be as high as usual. ;-)
I have been saying this about Wine for a couple years now. That and Cedega. Not to diminish the ability of the people who write this stuff, but it seems like a time sink project to me.
The average person is going to say "Well I need Office on Windows." Some Linux zealot will say "Just install WINE!" The average person will blink twice and go "Or I could save myself some fucking time and use Windows."
Even if they did switch they STILL use MS Office, which some zealots I know (casually thankfully) seem ok with, but yet bash MS.
Also, consider this. You install Linux but intend on using Windows apps. Ideally you have a Linux native app. However you just bought a Windows native one, which tells that company there is no market for Linux native apps. How does it that further "the cause?"
Why not write software that fills the gaps that keep people on Linux. That's what will make MS shit themselves.
No sig for you!!
Fast-forward 24 months and Linux sales will be good for institutional sales,
Since some of the local schools have started using Linux, I've seen an increase in requests to install Linux on old Windows machines. Parents see it being used in the school and don't want their kids to fall behind.
Finally, what concerns me most is we're now getting into a speeds-and-feeds business mentality where there will be good market research quantifying Linux-based OS penetration. This will simultaneously thin the distro herd, and give Microsoft's investors the information to force Microsoft to halt the spread of Linux-based OS distros that threaten their monopoly.
I'm not sure how Linux-based OS penetration will lead to a thinning of the distro herd, or provide Microsoft the ability to halt the spread of Linux-based OS distros. If someone wants to fill a niche with their own distribution, Linux market penetration isn't going to stop them. As for Microsoft, Microsoft will compete with Linux, OSX, Solaris, and any other competing product. They already do. Competition is a good thing. Linux can stand on it's own.
Request a Linux Shockwave player here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
Obviously techies can just apt-get WINE, and semi-techies can just go to the website and download it. The only people this would seem to HURT are non-techies who can't even manage that much. Can you imagine even explaining the situation to those people?
...NO CARRIER.
SLASHDOTTER: Bad news, Grandma. That new Linux Dell you're getting won't come with WINE.
GRANDMA: Wine? Like, alcohol?
S: No, no. It's a program CALLED "WINE."
G: Why's it called that?
S: It's an acronym.
G: What for?
S: Um, "WINE is not an emulator."
G: It's in its own acronym?
S: Well, yeah, it's recursive. I think it's kind of a joke.
G: Okay, well, what does it do?
S: It emulates Windows so you can...
G: I thought you just said it's NOT an emulator.
S: Well, right.
G: It's in the name of the program.
S: Yeah. So technically it's an interpreter, I think, but EFFECTIVELY what it does is let you run Windows programs in Linux.
G: But didn't you say that Windows programs are buggy and full of viruses?
S: Well, yeah.
G: And that's why you're making me learn this Linux thing instead of just running Windows in the first place?
S: Yeah.
G: So why would I WANT to run Windows programs?
S:
G: Oh my stars, not again.