Slashdot Mirror
Russia Accused of Cyber-War Against Estonia
earthlingpink writes about the ongoing DDoSing of Estonia. The Guardian is reporting that Russia stands accused of engaging in a three-week-long series of cyber-attacks. Government, banking, and media websites have been targeted. It is unclear whether the attacks are sanctioned or initiated by the Russian Government, but Estonian authorities believe that to be the case. NATO has sent security experts to Tallinn to help beef up defenses. The Estonian defense minister said, "At present, NATO does not define cyber-attacks as a clear military action. This means that the provisions of... collective self-defense, will not automatically be extended to the attacked country... this matter needs to be resolved in the near future."
In Soviet Russia, government cyber-attacks you.
As an American-Estonian (1/3 Estonian on my Mother's side), I can confirm that Russia has been attacking my programming project, making it impossible to debug. And THAT boss is why the project isn't done yet! What can I do when all of Russia is against me?
Where did I hear about this attack? Uh.. slashd... an on-line news source specializing in technical news of course!
One could argue that the entire world is in a constant state of cyber-war.
Bearded Dragon
No, just slashdot.
"Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
"At present, NATO does not define cyber-attacks as a clear military action"
They need to - we've been under attack from China for years and they're getting away with it.
It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
What...the fuck are you talking about? Please show me where they said this or even implied this or does being a feminist give you megical powers to find discrimination where there isn't any.
Mt. Dew, Snickers, Doritos, etc.
Just a group of people on slashdot.
"Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
Are they accusing the Russian government of perpetrating this attack, or are they stating that this attack is coming from Russian soil?
What?
Paragraph and line number, please. It appears to me as though you've invented your accusation out of whole cloth.
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
Shh.... you shouldn't piss off the makers of our cheap plastic Happy Meal toys and inexpensive flat-screen TV's. I'm sure they're just searching for information on our networks that would enable them to get the price of a DVD player in Wal-Mart below $20.
It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This isn't actually a quote from the article.
By now, most of the sites under attack have been blocked to the outside traffic. That by itself means the attacks have been successful, information from Estonian government stays in the country.
How would you you fight a DDoS attack and make sure all non-bot users have access?
Yeah, like the leftist Guardian would insert that in there. Maybe you're reading the Daily Mail's article?
There is only reason I even know where Estonia is. It's the first level in the original Command and Conquer. GG American Public Education System >.
Wow, the naïvete of Slashdot moderators continues to amaze me. This is perhaps the most obvious troll I have ever seen(because the quote is a complete fabrication and feminism is fairly unpopular on Slashdot), obviously posted in a hurry to get first post, and it's moderated Insightful?
the Hainan Island incident
before 9/11 in early 2001, a chinese jet fighter bumped a us spy plane it was trying to harass away. the chinese fighter crashed and the pilot was never found, and the spy plane was forced to make an emergency landing on hainan island, where the chinese stripped the plane of equipment and then returned the crew to the usa
what happened for a few tense weeks was a lot of nationalistic chest thumping by chinese and american hackers: chinese hackers defacing poorly patched american servers, everything from small businesses to government systems, and american hackers defacing chinese servers: schools and government (i remember this well as i had a box that was hacked: my home page was replaced with a chinese flag and a "fuck usa", heh)
the point is, it's probably not official, it's probably by an independent group of weakly organized russian hackers upset due to nationalistic pride
the trigger for them is that statue that estonia got rid of in tallinn, which russians probably view as thousands of dead soldiers in the defense of estonia from the nazis, and estonia being ungrateful, and estonians viewing as an example of soviet domination, and a symbol of the past cold war era, and russians trying to retain their dominance
regardless, i expect some pissed off estonian hackers soon to plaster "in soviet russia, estonia hackers hack you!" all over pravda.ru, or something
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
And do we really want our tax money buying cyber prostitutes to give our cyber soldiers computer viruses?
Feeling left behind in the new propaganda wars, the US military is working hard to catch up. I already thought the Air Force mission required the domination of cyber space, but it seems that's not enough. A newly minted "war czar" is going to expand and unite the mission for all branches. Czar? how fitting for this conversation. I'd prefer the title "war lord of mind fuck".
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The summary doesn't mention that the attacks started after Estonia began excavating graves of Soviet troops killed during the World War II and vandalized the memorial devoted to them. Estonia is seen as a neo-fascist regime by Russia, and in my opinion, rightly so: you can't deny over 30% of your population [estimate of Russian population in Estonia] the most basic rights, including citizenship and education for children, based on their nationality, and be seen otherwise. Of course, Europe and the United States ignore this issue.
"Russian."
(pointedly) "Estonian."
(smirk) "Russian."
(glare) "_We_ don't think so."
Fuck Slashdot
You haven't got a clue.
A DDOS attack is basically an attempt to saturate the capacity of the target. The "distributed" part means that it is difficult to screen out the attackers because the machines are on so many different subnets. The flaws that a DDOS relies on are not in the attacked systems, but in the attacking ones which have been compromised and have had software installed that makes them a "bot". A network of these "bots" are then coordinated by the attacker.
And if you think that shutting down the websites of pretty much every government institution, bank and commercial enterprise in a highly connected country like Estonia amounts to "a few eggs thrown over the fence" then just think what it would do your nations economy.
the point is, it's probably not official, it's probably by an independent group of weakly organized russian hackers upset due to nationalistic pride
Given that it is now Putin's Russia, I'm not so sure. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some winking and nodding coming from the Russian security apparatus.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Wow, that's an incredibly naive point of view.
Always depends on bugs? Well, that's sometimes true, but you make it sound like a piece of cake to eliminate bugs. We've had computers around for a good number of years now, and that hasn't happened yet! Even a project like OpenBSD has had several SEVERE flaws over its lifespan in the core software--not counting flaws in typical addon software. (This is not meant to attack OpenBSD because I think frankly it's the best we've got! I use it on my firewall..)
Not to mention, an "attack" can be so much more than those things. Trojans. Physical security breaches. Social engineering.
Look, if this stuff was easy, then there would be no one hack attacks, no ddos attacks, etc, EVER. There clearly are, so it's clearly not easy.
This reminds me of 2001 Chinese hackers said Tuesday they have begun to hit American computer networks with denial-of-service attacks, and also claim to have placed mass-attack tools into four large American computer networks. A new alert from the FBI-led National Infrastructure Protection Center (NIPC) confirms that hackers have been particularly active over the past two days. The distributed-denial-of-service attacks on the Department of the Interior's National Business Center, the U.S. Geological Survey's site and Pacific Bell Internet Services are among the largest so far. (Is This World Cyber War I).
Economics will eventually take a big hit in the future with regards to cyberwarfare. A lot of times I'll read articles and comments with "so what better computers then people". Often those commenting don't think about the repercussions that come from a collapsed economy... That will lead to a shoddier quality of life, more crime and eventually more violence. Isn't this the case for the gaming community with so called "Gold Farmers" from China waging off-line attacks now... Meaning people actually escalating a scenario to non Internet mediums...
Infiltrated dot Net
I agree that DDoS attaks depend on flaws in the network... but that network is Internet... and you cant just say "everyone c'mon... buy new routers!"
What if Iran would take down all US banks, newssites (includeing this one) and goverment pages... thats what basically happened in estonia. It is not a direct act of war (by laws, yet) but it definately isnt compareable to throwing eggs over fence
They should make this an act of war. There is no excuse for stuff like this: http://curio.us/q2
General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, we must not allow a Cyber-War gap!
Seriously though, the US should have allowed the commie bastards join NATO when they wanted, instead of creating the ideal conditions for starting WW3.
davecb5620@gmail.com
I think it GP is Andy666. He/she has been posting about sexism lately.
I know - off topic.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
The problem is the flaws that are being attacked aren't necessarily resident on the machines being attacked - as you know, since you mention zombie computers.
But that doesn't make cyber attack bullshit. That's like saying that land invasions are a made up boogeyman because they depend on flaws like "not having a giant impregnable wall surrounding your country." DDoS attacks, in particular, are problematic. A given target has no way to prevent zombied machines from participating in the attack.
Besides which, a DDoS attack is just a bandwidth race. If my home PC were to be attacked like this, there's nothing I, personally, can do about it. My router won't pass any of the packets to my machine, but if there's 6 Mbps worth of incoming traffic, even if I drop it at the router, I still can't get much legit traffic through. I can call my provider, and see if they can stop it upstream, but then it's just a comparison of the bandwidth at the DSLAM to the bandwidth of the attacker. The only thing to hope for is that, somewhere up the chain, you can reach a node with enough bandwidth that the attacker can't overwhelm it. When you start getting up into backbone territory, this isn't a problem.
But - if we hypothesize for the moment an actual planned assault by a country - odds are pretty good that the US DoD, for example, has more bandwidth than Iran.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=16570 2&cid=13822614
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
in mother russia, paper looks good on communism!
Only in the movies do the bad guys cut off the electricity and phone (communications blackout) before breaking in with guns ablazing.
Only by submitting this story through my Estonian proxy on the 16th, did it get rejected for this one submitted on the 17th.
It's funny, laugh. Better yet, moderate me funny damnit!
Deleted
"Without naming Russia, the Nato official said: "I won't point fingers. But these were not things done by a few individuals."
;) ).
I see no reason why this could not have been done by one person, one man and a dial up connection can have alot of fun (once they find a few vulnerable servers on T1
Just what evidence does this nato official base his claims on? Political power seems to be inversely proportional to technical knowledge in the case of anyone with any political influence
The Guardian article is not correct, in stating "the first known incidence of such an assault on a state". James Adams published an article entitled "Virtual Defense" from Foreign Affairs, May/June 2001 that details a number of cyber-attacks on a massive scale, against the United States. Specifically the Pentagon, NASA, as well as private universities and research laboratories, and a number of military defense contractors were targeted and the security breaches were enourmous, with highly sensitive documents vulnerable. Here is a link to the article (brief preview, then they make it available for purchase - sorry) http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20010501faessay4771/ james-adams/virtual-defense.html
According to Foreign Affairs:
The U.S. government now believes that more than 30
nations have developed aggressive computer-warfare programs. The list includes
Russia and China, volatile governments such as Iran and Iraq, and U.S. allies
such as Israel and France...The hackers have built "back doors" through which they can re-enter the infiltrated systems at will and steal further data; they have also left behind tools that reroute specific network traffic through Russia. [end of excerpt]
The danger here is very high, especially for small businesses, who certainly do not have the technical resources of the US military (and even that was breached). Many small businesses have military contracts, etc. In short, this is a genuine act of war, and the potential for breaches of security across small businesses in the US (or really anywhere) is very high.
however, i like my tea to be polonium 210 free
ehem, cough
whistling nonchalantly, strolling away...
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The Russian minority living in Estonia is discriminated against, so this does not surprise me in the least. Teens with botnets, DOSing hated government sites... Estonian government can only blame themselves for not allowing the russian minority to work and for the many discriminatory laws against them. What is laughable is crying for NATO to deal with script kiddies' botnets.
The world does not evolve around America kiddy wink!
The politics section originally started out I believe a year or two ago to cover the election and resulting aftermath of "ZOMG BUSH GOT LESS VOTES!" type story. It has since become a more rounded section and carries stories from all over the world under it's banner, because you know "Stuff that matters" is quite often political.
I mean when people start having wars via the Internet (as this rather implies is happening in some twisted form) it starts to effect us geeks as well. So we discuss it on Slashdot and because it's political based they used the politics banner.
I feel sorry for you if you can't see that the FAQ maybe outdated and this has been this way for a good few months (maybe 12+) now, so decide to grind your axe on a stone that's been here longer than you probably have (Anoncow has no ID so I can't tell from your number, but I have to assume you're new if you don't understand the politics section).
I like muppets.
dude.. u need t spend more time with ur girlfriend
nice neuromancer ref
And what kind of rations do you feed a cyber soldier, anyway?
High doses of caffeine, of course. Or what kind of person do you think would be a soldier in that war, huh?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
i would like to open this nationalistic chest thumping thread with an exhortation from the rest of us here at slashdot: please be extremely hysterical and hot-headed and entertaining
please be accusing each other's mothers of various acts of bestiality and extreme promiscuity, and do not go lightly on the creative threats of violence, including skewering the eyes with pokers, and the twisting of testicles in various farm machinery. proper english grammar is optional, in fact, it is better if your english grammar is nonexistent
ok, my popcorn is ready, any russian want to respond to the above estonian?
go!
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
So we have an Estonian government that is playing the ethnic card and that in the process probably has caused hundreds of Russians to emigrate. And now we are asked to see that government as a victim because some Russian script kiddies got angry with them?
Just watch out for that black ice, man, or you might find yourself with half a face getting shot down in Finland.
There it is, clear as day, no wiggle room whatsover. I win, you lose.
It has only become more "rounded" because trolls like kdawson and zonk use this section as their own soapbox.
Bottom line, slashdot shouldn't try to cover world politics, they are nitwits at that sort of thing.
Computer attacks rely heavily on human mistakes. Security is a minimum game of what the system(s) involved can and what the user(s) in front of them can. And the fun part about defending a computer is that ALL those parts have to be tight. Like defending a castle. Doesn't help jack if one side of your defense is made of solid rock when the other one is made of cardboard.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I read on-line news sources specializing in technical news too.
-Your boss
i am not vouching for the authenticity of one view or another, i am merely stating that there are two different views, a russian one, and an estonian one. obviously, both sides are very emotional about it
bu if you ask you me anyways, my personal attitude is that you poor poles, lithuanians, latvians and estonians have been the battleground of the power struggle between berlin and moscow for centuries. i champion the underdog and the little guy, and that's obviously estonia in this case, so i'm with you:
fuck the russians (and the germans). it's easy to pick on your small neighbors isn't it, you fucking autocratic assholes
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Cyber war, famine and death - lets say in something like Second life - is considerably preferable to actually killing people in real life. (ask an Iraqi which he'd prefer)
If this is the future of warfare, then that's progress. Though, real peace and cyber peace would be the Utopian dream.
If Americans have got conquered by the Russians during WW II and remain like that until 10 years ago, and now you would be in government, would you like to keep the statues they would have erected in your country honouring the Russian soldiers that died killing the American soldiers and civilians during the invasion of your country?
This is not playing anything, this is stating their independence ... I wonder if Israel did the something similar you would say that they were playing ethnic cards against Germany (and Germany actually regrets what they have done ... the Russians still think they had every reason to do so and never apologise to the Estonians and every other country in the former URSS block).
Great, then next we could overstate everything until we completely lose our senses.
What people don't seem to understand is that this is happening in all the former URSS block, but Estonia is getting the worst part because they are such a small nation, the country only has 1.5 Million people and so the Russian keep coming with the argument that they are 1/3 of the population.
But Russians, wake up, this is not Stalin time anymore! The Estonians go a long way to make Russians have the same opportunities, mostly everything is translated to Russian, and there are Russians schools ... but you should start realising that Estonia doesn't belong to you anymore ... if you don't like it go back to Russia and stop complaining, because after what you have done to Estonians in the past, they are playing really nice with you guys, so start to appreciate and be thankful !
Shut the fuck up bitch! And get me a beer!
So I guess the USA doesn't have to pay any attention to NATO policy?
Don't know about you but my address bar shows it.slashdot.org, not politics.slashdot.org. Therefore, the politics tag does not imply that a given story is in the politics section.
More Twoson than Cupertino
For the love of freedom, just patch the boxes and shut up!
You just don't get it do you? A DDOS is not indicative of a flaw in the systems under attack, it is using the regular means of access to the systems (HTTP requests mostly) but doing it on a massive scale from machines around the world taht have been compromised. Or are you suggesting that Estonian sysadmins perform the impossible and patch all these lousy Windows boxes on various ISP accounts around the world?
Unless you've experienced a large scale DDOS or read the detailed summary of how one was handled then all I can suggest is looking at some descriptions of what a DDOS is. Wikipedia is a good start. Our Payment Service Provider received a blackmail threat a couple of years ago, and then experienced a massive ten day long DDOS attack. Once it was over they provided us with a very detailed account of the attack. What impressed me was the sheer number of machines used in the attack and how evenly spread around the world they were. Trying to contact the relevant sysadmins or ISPs for these machines was simply not feasible.
one is russia reasserting its dominance on its smaller neighbors. the other is ingratitutde at world war ii era sacrifices
i think the former is far more important than the latter, because the former is current, and the latter is dim and fading history (albeit emotional)
and yes, i think the usa would be raising an outcry if france were moving the cemetaries of its war dead. however, i also think that vichy france doesn't represent all of french attitude at the time, nor do i think that the usa is currently engaging in the hostile and imperialistic undermining of france, nor do i think 1/4 of france's population is composed of nationalistic americans
the issue front and center is that although the soviet empire is dead, russia is waking up again and flexing its muscles, and becoming increasingly nationalistic dictatorial authoritarian and bullying to its little neighbors, and that's orders of magnitude more important than echoes of world war ii
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I've said this again, but until Russia (and other Eastern bloc countries) start taking cybercrime seriously, it should just be cut off the net entirely.
Most of the botnets in the world are controlled by Russian mafia. The rest of the world is spending an insane amount of time, money and effort defending against these attacks that orginate 90% from one part of the world. It's like criminally created welfare program, and we're all paying.
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
"Too young to remember the war, aren't you, Case?" Armitage ran a
large hand back through his cropped brown hair. A heavy gold bracelet
flashed on his wrist. "Leningrad, Kiev, Siberia. We invented you in Siberia,
Case."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"Screaming Fist, Case. You've heard the name."
"Some kind of run, wasn't it? Tried to burn this Russian nexus
with virus programs. Yeah, I heard about it. And nobody got out."
He sensed abrupt tension. Armitagc walkcd to the window and looked out
over Tokyo Bay. "That isn't true. One unit made it back to Helsinki,
Case."
668: Neighbour of the Beast
if estonians were so superior and above all this lowly nationalistic nonsense, they wouldn't have cared about removing the statue. the truth is of course that estonians are deeply insulted by the statue, and it is a point of estonian pride to remove it
fine, i don't have a problem with that. remove the staute, go ahead. i don't side with the russians, i side with the estonians, the little guys in this fight
but don't think for a moment think you sit high in your ivory tower completely clean and unlike the actions of the russians. you are down in the mud, playing their same game: nationalistic pride
so don't be a hypocrite, or maybe i'll find the russian position more attractive, because the russians at least aren't pretending to be above it all, they know they are playing the chest thumping game of tribalism. the same game you are playing, but won't admit to
be honest with yourself and what motivates you, or find that you have less friends on the international stage, because you think raindows and sunlight shine from estonian assholes. they smell just as bad as a russian assholes
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
There's been a sexism troll making the rounds lately.
To stop those trolls 1-2-3
Here's a fresh new way that's trouble free
It's got Paul Anka's guarantee...
(Guarantee void in Tennessee)
Just don't look!
Just don't look!
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Programmer: an ingenious device that converts caffeine into code.
One could argue there is no such thing as an American, only Earthlings.
But just to invalidate your point. America is a continent, to be born there makes you American, the common American-usage is someone from the United states of America. But either way, believing or not believing in Evolution is not something needed for an American passport, nor American citizenship, which would be two very big features of being American.
I like muppets.
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Ohhh, I see, they want Russian people that actually live in Estonia since they were born to actually know how to speak basic Estonian in case they want a state job ... oh the shame ... you are right, they are racist persons them all !
You know what? I think Mexico should make a DoS against California as well ... stupid racist people wanting Mexicans to actually know English in order to work in their state !
"Or are you suggesting that Estonian sysadmins perform the impossible and patch all these lousy Windows boxes on various ISP accounts around the world?"
As a matter of fact, yes, I am suggesting that. More or less, I would either like everyone in the world to patch the systems OR see MS take responsibility for the giant macro-economic mess they've created. I shouldn't have to suffer whatever problems the US has in store becasue Gates & Co. can't get their act together.
Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
...same as the Cold War.
Murdering dissidents and instigating unrest in various parts of the world.
The question is how we'll finance our side of the war this time around what with Baby Boomers getting ready to suck the federal tit dry and a feckless Congress that can't stick to a war when the going gets tough.
Maybe they can just feed out of a bit bucket?
Rock on, except grandparent is 100% correct, and somehow you got the +5 and he got the -1? Machines these days (even when there is an entire botnet after you) don't have the power to simply "flood" an opponent's pipe. In any DoS or DDoS, you need to find the minimum amount of traffic you need to send out to tax one of the opponents' critical resources (cpu, memory, connect queue, whatever). Often times attackers will take advantage if a flaw in some server code to do this. More often, however, people just resort to the syn flood, since the protocol itself is pretty weak.
I also believe the reference to "a few eggs thrown over the fence" wasn't a claim that these attacks are insignificant, just that they are common, and there plenty of ways to mitigate them. I will agree that if the Russian government is actually to blame for this, that is pretty lame.
So the nice humanitarian Russians entered Estonia just to free them?...Yeah, the nice humanitarian Russians that started the war on Hitler side.
Russian entered Estonia because it was the opportune time to invade it with the excuse that they were fighting the Nazis, when in fact what they really wanted was to capture Estonia in order to have a very profitable and strategically important sea route to the Baltic...and if you know so much you probably know that but choose to leave it out.
Second, the Americans left Belgium and France after sending the Nazis out ... so don't try to compare the 50 years or Russian occupation, pillage and killing to that.
Third and the worst of all you said is simply a very lame way of manipulating the date, because ALL the Nazi occupied countries collaborated in the extermination of Jews, because they were occupied and couldn't go that much against it, so don't try to make it look that they were in the side of the Nazis willingly, cause it simply isn't true by any perspective.
Russia didn't make any sacrifice during WW II, just just did what they always do, they played the side and role that would give them the most profit out of the situation!
they could have picked a better time to do it
but they didn't
because estonians are proud people
and they have every right to be
look, i am on estonia's side on this issue, but please stop pretending nationalistic pride is only something that fuels the russians. it fuels the estonians as well
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
When I worked for a large financial institution "getting websites shut down" would be the least of our worries during a serious DDOS attack (though that is straight from TFA). The folks in the data centers would get a bit testy though. I'm sure it's the same for government institutions as well.
"getting websites shutdown" is straight from the article though.
Does anyone really believe we're talking about websites here?
What do they teach in news reporter school?
Operator, give me the number for 911!
All the signs are there for a renewal in an expansionist Russian foreign policy. Putin has made himself the second most powerful man in Russian history, I think it is approaching the time when he will begin wielding that power abroad a lot more explicitly than polonium-laced tea. I have little doubt that we will see a pro-Russian coup in Estonia and several other countries within the next few years, and we will see many countries which have been looking towards the US and EU to redirect their gaze to Moscow.
Russia is going down the road it has been down before. Putin is well know for messing with elections in ways Bush could only wish to do. Now they are fucking with the same States that they used to rule. Teenagers are doing this? Yah sure guys, just like it is teenagers making cyber attacks on America's network systems from China, right?
It is a damn good thing that Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia are part of the EU.
Because this is not only happening in Estonia, the reason Estonia is more in the news, is because it's a very small country with only 1.5 million people and so we keep hearing the argument, that 1/3 of the population is Russian and they feel discriminated (when actually Estonia goes a great deal to provide education in Russian language and practically everything is translated ... but still Russians feel that although they live in Estonia since they are born, is too much to ask from them to actually learn Estonian in order to get a state Job).
But the thing is that Estonia and Latvia are the major routes of Russian goods to Europe and so the Russian government keeps exerting a great deal of pressure into submission the Estonian and Latvian state to a non completely free statues in order to keep controlling those routes, and now that most of the former URSS block countries are finally stating without doubts that Russia doesn't have any power left there anymore, Russia, like always does in this cases is recurring to force to make their point stand. After all we all know that Russia is not really a democratic country, and that they have no problems in going out of the law to keep the press under control and to keep their secrets inside.
So, yes, NATO should start to consider DoS attacks as a minor aggression, cause the reason the Russians used it was simply because it was the only way to circumvent the treaties Estonia as with NATO and EU without getting any sanction ... and like Russia will willingly do this without any problem again in the future, so will any country in similar situation.
The russians are very good at telling others what to do but they're not very good at being told themselves and then they start complaining and acting like spoilt school children if they have to do something they don't like (you know , like learning the native language of the country they're living in).
If the russians want to make a big deal out of those statues the estonians moved , perhaps the estonians should ask the russians - where are the statues for the estonians your government deported to siberia??
...you can't deny over 30% of your populationAnd there are plenty of Estonian nationals which are ethnically russian. What Estonian government is trying to do is to make sure that its citizens can
(a) speak the language of the country they want to be citizens of (no, it ain't russkiy), and
(b) that the future Estonian citizens will have loyalty to their country first, and not to the former eastern overlord.
I would hardly call Estonia a neo-fascist regime. I for one feel that it is the only way for them to break away from the former colonial ruler and set the course towards a modern society. And they are getting there at a good pace too. I wish that more Eastern European nations that broke away form Mother Russia (Ukraine, for one) would have the guts to do the same.
Personally, the black ICE doesn't concern me. Slamhounds, on the other hand...
Fill in your four or five-letter word of wisdom here _ _ _ _ _.
Good post.
English and Polish are actually more closely related than Russian and Estonian. Russian, Polish, and English are all Indo-European languages, and are genetically related to each other.
Estonian is a member of the Finno-Ugric group of Uralic language family, (specifically in the Balto-Finnic subgroup). Like Finnish (to which it's closely related), Estonian is unrelated to the surrounding languages - it's more similar to Hungarian (though it's a distiant relationship, at best) and some of the languages of Central Asia.
Of course not. Real Americans don't believe in evolution.
:)
Which is why unfortunately the GP was wrong, and the world is evolving around America.
The enemies of Democracy are
a lot of estonians were racist nazi assholes
a lot of germans were too (duh)
but we can talk to germans nowadays without thinking of them as nazis, and i think we can do that with estonians too, right?
however, today, right now, russians are getting rather imperialistic over their little neighbors
do you think the crimes of russia from today are excused by crimes of estonians from yesterday?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
being that nationalistic pride is a fault of every single country that currently exists and ever has existed, i think you need to readjust your blind spot on the "incorruptibility" of estonia
there is nothing wrong with supporting estonian nationalism in the face of russian nationalism
there is everything wrong thinking estonian nationalism doesn't exist
russians are nationalistic and estonians aren't? bullshit
nationalistic pride is an equal opportunity idiocy, it does not discriminate based on race or religion or country of birth. nationalism, ethnocentrism, and bigotry are crimes of every nation on the planet
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
to the russians
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
While I agree with you, there was (and still is) a lot of antisemitism in central/eastern Europe, or at least here in Poland. I bet most of collaboration with nazis came from genuine jew haters. It's easy to blame just some faceless nazi-machine but the truth is, a lot of people are guilty.
Hello, this is reality calling.
World is not just black and white, as I said I refuse to believe that national pride would be the only motivation. All decisions, especially political ones are combination of several factors and several motivations.
You are accusing me of having blind spot, while on the same time you are focusing only one motivation.
You are free to concentrate on a single aspect of the issue all you like, but please don't make the intellectual folly of assuming that world is as simple as you would like it to be.
I see when the CIA pays street thugs to protest against a legitimate election and get it overturned its called an Orange revolution. Maybe Orange is for the color of the Euro notes handed out by CIA operatives to fund it. But when people protest the removal of war memorials commemorating millions of soldiers who died fighting the Nazis and protecting Estonia its Russian agents? How would you react if somehow a Latino president comes to power and orders the demolition of the Alamo as it represents Yankee colonialization of traditional Mexican lands?
**Life is too short to be serious**
In both Finland and Canada when they became independent, the minorities both Swedish and French had been there for relatively long and they were well integrated to the majority. In Estonia the case is very different, most of the Russians were transported there to colonize the Estonia and transform it to be a part of Russia. In Estonia minority wasn't well integrated to majority, majority was by force tried to integrate to minority.
PS. In Finland there has been much discussion about making Finnish the only national language and giving Swedish official minority language status. Times change, statistics change and needs change. In Estonia there is need to support the Estonian language and culture after 50 years of oppression. For this it's only natural that Estonia's only official language is Estonian. Luckily for you Russians, Estonians have been tolerant and not banned Russian language, they have assured same right to all, they have given education to all even in Russian. So shut the fuck up, and fix first problems in Russia.
Survey research tool for commercial and scientific use
Off-topic? What the hell? Jeebus, I thought it was a requirement to have read Neuromancer at least once before being allowed to post in Slashdot...
It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
"methinks the lady doth protest too much"
why does the idea bother you so much? why do you have trouble admitting estonian nationalism?
the issue is not that i press nationalism as a motivation over the tallinn statue, the issue is that you fail to admit it
why not just admit that estonian nationalism exists and is part of the motivation?
unless you believe that estonian nationalism doesn't exist, or is in someway beyond reproach
all you have to do is admit it exists as a motivating factor, and i have no argument with you
why is that difficult for you? it is something all nations suffer from, why do you think it is bad to admit that estonia is like every other country on the planet in this respect? are estonians human beings? or are they gods above us all in some teutonic superior plane of existence?
to not admit a simple human weakness we all suffer from is to reveal a colossla arrogance on your part, and perhaps the worst kind of nationalist arrogance of all
the fact you can't admit a simple human foible speaks volumes to me about a flaw in your character: you think your shit smells like roses. you are above it all. hubris, arrogance, hypocrisy
makes me wonder. maybe i should side with the russians
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Finnish company Container finance is building cargo terminal in Kronstadt in Russia.
And now couple weeks after Estonian incident st Petersburg city decided that the land is immediately ceded to Rosstroi dam works as storage area.
Of course this is breach of all contracts and serious breach of international contract law. So something really strange is going on in Russia
More info:
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/St+Petersburg+cal ls+off+extension+of+Finnish+cargo+port+/1135226958 211
And why don't you read posts before you reply to them?
I have already said following in two previous posts
"as I said I refuse to believe that national pride would be the only motivation"
Notice the word only, it means that I do agree that national part is a part of the motivation. But it is not the only one.
Some reading comprehension would help, if you don't want to look like total dolt in conversation.
you should be a lawyer. you have a wonderful way of manipulating the words that are written and suddenly deliver a meaning that did not exist in the previous context
and i probably am a dolt. better a dolt than a closet nationalist
i'm not the one who seems to be so so bothered by my insistence on the existence of estonian nationalism
and i need no quote to support that assertion. i merely need to point out your continued existence this deep in this thread
if the idea i am presenting to you didn't bother you, you wouldn't respond. since you respond, my point has been made, loud and clear:
"methinks the lady doth protest too much"
so keep arguing, keep making my point
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I thought Estonia and Estonians were only a fictional place and people in Dilbert Comics.
I give up.
It does not matter whether I agree or disagree with you. You just keep repeating the same song all over.
You truly are able to see only your own words. I hope that you grow up some day.
Here's another Estonian perspective, to complement the "official" line above:
- The memory of WW2 is, hopefully obviously for most Slashdotters, very very important for all Russians wherever they may live.
- The monument in question was the prime memorial spot, primarily for the Russian population, to commemorate the war and the victory, in the country.
- The monument in question - quite inoffensive statue of a mourning soldier in Soviet uniform - had stood at its spot for 60 years, including all of Estonia's reindependence, with respect and dignity, without any problems, or almost anyone associating it with Communism.
- Some hardcore nationalists (some of whom could be considered neo-nazis) apparently disagreed, and had staged some earlier acts of vandalism against the monument, which in context, made it all the more dearer for those who held it dear for the local Russians.
- After another provocation on the 9th of May last year, the government basically simply assumed the so far ultranationalist stance, protesting not the provokers, or people who might be using the memory of WW2 for propaganda, but claiming that the *monument*, which had stood there just fine for many decades, had somehow, overnight, turned into a horrible symbol of Soviet repression, removal of which is supposedly a matter of honor and principle. Basically, very foolishly and irresponsibly, pitting the respect of WW2 against the respect for the country.
- Transferring a statue from one place to another might not seem to be such a big deal, but it's all about the context. The government basically agreed to the same stance the few neo-nazis in the country had, yet didn't make the slightest attempt to address the concerns of those (mainly Russians) who legitimately saw it as a symbol of defeat over Nazism, and had done so for decades. On the contrary, the honorers of the monument were smeared in the media and portrayed as drunks who use the war as an excuse to drunkenly dance on graves and to glorify the Soviet power. This ignorance and disrespect towards things the Russians hold dear, resonated deeply with other political issues, and the local Russians' feelings of inequality and guilt-tripping for things Stalin did before most of them were even born.
- As the government would *still* go on with the oh-so-inconsequential plan of transferring that sad statue to its new place, somehow figuring that using riot police and tear gas on the thousands protesters was justified... in order to appease a nationalist frenzy the government themselves had spun up. Rioting, looting and vandalism ensued. Not because of the statue, not because of the history, but out of hate for the government which, by removing the monument, the presumptions, excuses and justifications for doing so, demonstrated utter contempt and disregard towards the local Russian community, which then essentially responded with "f..k you".
Anyway, what I wanted to say as far as Slashdot is concerned:
Great majority of Russians are GENUINELY p...ed off against Estonia, not because of history, not because of the statue, but because of the hateful, spiteful attitude the government has displayed and keeps displaying towards its Russian countrymen, and which the removal of the statue, despite countless pleas, debates, warnings for the whole year, was a glaring testament of. According to the latest polls, only 6% of Russians on either side of the border agreed with the Estonian government's actions, and a whole lot more people are more upset than that.
Hence, it is more than likely that the DDOS attacks are in fact spontaneous activism, and not sponsored by Kremlin, which has different and less obvious means at its disposal.
I think a lot of people here are making a lot of judgements based on a very narrow and incomplete knowledge of the problem. Why would Estonia make the decision to remove the monument to the Soviet unknown soldier? After all, the Soviet army liberated Estonia from Nazi Germany in 1942. But it's an uncomfortable truth for Estonians that they collaborated very readily with their Nazi occupiers, and contributed to the many crimes perpetrated against Jews, Russians and other Slavs, etc. So the Russian minority (a sizable minority - on the order of 1/3 of the population of Estonia is Russian), feeling already discriminated against on a linguistic basis, is additionally frustrated by the Estonian political elite's attempt to rewrite history, treating the Soviet occupation as an enslavement, and the Nazi one as something akin to a liberation. Furthermore, there is simply no evidence that this response is orchestrated by the Russian government. In fact, they have much more effective and painful measures of retribution (such as shutting off the gas valves), which makes one wonder why they would bother with something so petty as DDoS. This is much more likely a spontaneous reaction by Russian hackers sympathising with their Estonian compatriots, but more to the point, it's an illustrative example of what kind of reactions are produced when you deny a minority the means to determine their lives through democratic processes. A useful example in how sometimes, the little guy is not necessarily the good guy.
The all-volunteer Estnische SS-Legion was created in 1942. The unit, ultimately called 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian), finished its way in May 1945 in Czechoslovakia. The division's soldiers carried stripes with the Estonian national colors and images of three lions[1].
Russia didn't make any sacrifice during WW IIMillions of Russian (and other post-USSR countries) veterans would disagree.
They should leave the momument where it is or at least build a resonable memorial and instead push for Russia to admit the crimes committed during the occupation and maybe a memorial to that.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
NATO is paying Russian bot-herders (the media calls them "hackers") to DDoS Esthonia in order for Esthonia to ask the help of NATO. The rest of easy to think of.
Are you serious? "Estonian political elite's attempt to rewrite history, treating the Soviet occupation as an enslavement, and the Nazi one as something akin to a liberation." Is this some kind of joke? Sure they messed up by going with the Nazi's, but after getting crapped on the the Russians for so long what were they to do being a small country? And what do you mean by saying "treating the Soviet occupation as an enslavement,"? That is just crazy. It was enslavement. That is what Stalin did you know. He was IMO more evil than Hitler, and in some historians opinion, killed more people than Hitler too. Where do you get off talking such trash?
You should update your historical resources, not only read Soviet propaganda (and use heavily edited Wikipedia articles from Soviet-and-glory-past-of-Russia-lovin editors who claims that everything else they don't agree with is nazi propoganda and should be banned as references - read Talk pages for your referenced pages). SS-Legion WASN'T voluntary at all, Nazi wanted to look it so, but all their documents - and oral histories from legionnaires - claims different picture. They didn't had choice - be in SS-Legion or be gone, literally. Also already in aftermath all legal institutions involved in judging SS-Legions claimed that they weren't voluntary and that they didn't act in any of shootings of Jews (you could avoid a spin about that and could point out that lot of Eastern Europeans shot Jews, including some several hundred very Nazi thinking people from Estonia, then I could agree with you in that. But you should also point out that it was all arranged and coordinated by Hilter guys themselves).
Soviet Union, as far as I have seen reading after all sources, didn't leave them much choice, because it is no hyperbole that occupation of Baltic States where called Year of Horrors - you should read more about that. What your nice "daddy" Stalin did to us, and in fact also lot of Russians, left with no choice for Estonians than fight in SS-Legions against Soviet army and trying to avoid second occupation. Two armed-to-teeth, nutty, murderious nations and you and your nation between them - guess what kind of choice it is.
In fact, that you utilize "red flag" syndrome using SS brand without quite understanding what it actually means leaves me little doubt that you just trying to push your agenda here.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
I'd like to throw this out there. How would, say, an African country like Chad or Somalia deal with an DDOS attack? Hmm...they would shrug their shoulders and continue on like we have been communicating for the last 100,000 years. We all have our comfort blinders on here. There's a very simple solution for people to get to Government info instead of the web. Call the embassy! If a website for a store goes down, get off your lazy ass and go to the store! That's why I don't think that this should be considered an "act of war". It's like saying that your mom grounding you for 2 weeks with no TV is an act of war. Silly...
Since you consider Wikipedia Soviet apologist propoganda:
Monument to Estonian SS Veterans put up and removed
Simon Wiesenthal war crimes campaign in Baltics
Report on the Holocaust in the Baltics
I'm done. Take care
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
hilarious!
The reason for this DDoS against Estonia was Soviet Soldier-liberator monument dismantle, the common US-Estonian provocation against Russia. It seems the american US Military Evil Empire decided that Yogoslavia and Iraq intervention is not enough, now they build US antimissile defense in Europe(hey wtf?) near Russia and help Georgia and Estonia invoke provocations against Russia. It seems that yankee want World War III.
You obviously aren't from Estonia.
If you are talking solely about Estonian history then yes Nazi troops were nothing compared to soviet terror when about 10% of the population was deported, families torn, culture destroyed, people arrested, killed, houses pillaged by Russian soldiers etc. Read up:_ Republics o ns_en.pdf
The problem with this bronze soldier issue is thathttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Baltic
http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/pdf/conclusi
1) Estonians hate their soviet occupation period and want NOTHING to remind them of it. Especially red flags appearing every year (9th of May) in the city center by the Bronze Soldier (now moved to cemetery) provoking both sides and creating more hate.
2) Russia has great pride and thinks of themselves as the leaders of all. And also they think of them as saviors of the world of Nazis. This all makes this monument important to them.
There is truth to both sides.
The thing is this all should actually have nothing to do with Russia and it is unfortunate how they keep shitting on their small neighbors.
About all the oppression talk: you can get Estonian citizenship really easily. I think there is zero oppression of the Russian minority in Estonia. They have had 20 years to learn Estonian, exams are easy as hell, all the biggest newspapers, internet sites, tv news are translated. The second biggest political party is very Russian friendly.
Also I have many friends that are Russian and they are doing exceptionally well in their field of business here (btw they all have learned our language) and they think Estonia to be their fatherland. Damn, I had a Russian girlfriend :)
Stop messing with our country, Russia.
That's ridiculous. The statue in question is clearly for people who died fighting Fascists. I am pretty sure that it even has a label to state that. It's not for NKVD or for Stalin or for Beria (chief of NKVD - the secret police who executed the deportation). The comparison to Sadam does not make any sense at all either. First of all nobody is erecting a new statue. Secondly and most importantly this statue was not for some dictator. It was for people who liberated Estonia from Fascism. The fact that Estonia was not a free country is correct, but it has nothing to do with this sculpture. Nobody would've complained if Estonia removed the status for Stalin. This is just a resurrection of fascism in Estonia plain and simple. Trying to create wrong analogies is just not going to hide that.
When russians occupied Estonia then they blew up all of Estonian monuments and now when estonians move one monument to a slightly different place where it belongs they start crying and saying that estonians do bad thing to russians all the time. Maybe we estonians should apologize to russians because taking thousands of people thousands of kilometres away from home was really exhausting not to mention blowing up monuments and making estonians learn russian. And sorry that everyone has to learn estonian when they want to be citizens of Estonia, i know it doesn't make any sense:D
This is a one sided history lesson. Interesting, but wrong and off-the topic. The fact is that Estonian population embraced Nazis, happily run concentration caps and helped execute thousands of civilians. It is the rebirth of Fascism that drove the removal of this monument. It has nothing to do with "Soviet occupation" or anything else. I quoted occupation because Estonian helped to install Soviet rule in Russia. If they felt that it was good for Russia, why was not it good for them? This monument was not for Stalin, it was not for NKVD (secret police) Chief Beria, not for NKVD soldiers. It had nothing to do with occupation. It was for people who gave their live to go west and liberate people from concentration caps. It might not be understandable for some. When you run concentration camp it's hard to see how troops which came to open it up are liberating anybody, but trust me for people who where inside it was indeed a liberation. For these who were scheduled to be gazed, tortured and killed it was the liberation. Try to talk to these people who were in concentration camps and you will understand. Do you really want to say that that Jewish medic lady who died pulling soldiers from the battle was buried under this monument died while trying to occupy Estonia? What a bunch of gibberish, really. It's the rebirth of fascism in Estonia, plain and simple.
Great write. Some Estonians (definitely not all) try to twist the history. Sure Soviet rule caused them harm, but lets not forget that they helped to install Soviet rule in Soviet Union to begin with (supporting red army against white armies who were pro Tsar armies). They complained that they were not liberated, while forgetting that unlike for instance Poles they did not fight Nazis, they helped them. If Estonia wanted to be independed so much, why didn't they fight Nazis? This one sided view helps them justify current actions of Estonian government. The problem is that in real historical content it's obvious that there is that clear rebirth of fascism in Estonia. Trying to find external enemies might help them hide this fact for some time, but truth will always come out at the end.
..net/tech/security story and as such is relevant. It might also turn into a good MS versus Linux bashfest, if we can determine what all the poor servers are running and what the attackers are using for their zombots.
When you are talking about the net, there are no national boundaries of any importance. They get *ignored* for the most part by most everyone who uses the net.
Anti-semitism in Estonia is ... what anti-semitism? First of all, hate needs passion and that is the metric most of estonians completely lack of :) Other reason is that jews, apart of many soviets (note that I don't use word russians), are generally really intelligent people not infected by "great motherland" syndrome so they learn the language and extremely respected for that(Estonians due to the really small population and decades of russinification really love their funny language). Russia of course sees it otherwise, I bet none of their propaganda channels, oops national TV channels, reported recent Shimon Peres visit to the Estonia where he showed solidarity with Estonia and also gave positive judgement to the relocation of the Bronze Soldier.
Estonia should be held responsible for it's behavior. Baltic countries (including Estonia) played a big role in establishing the Soviet rule in Soviet Union (see Latvian Strelki for the best example, but Estonian fought as well). The Soviet rule that killed millions of Russian, Ukrainians, Poles and many others all around the Europe. They conveniently forget their help and instead twist it around as if they were against Soviets, while history clearly shows otherwise. Many of them were collaborated with Nazis and helped run concentration camps. They could talk all day as running a concentration camp is some kind of show of independence. Now instead of dealing with rebirth of fascism, they try to hide it by finding and loudly fighting imaginable foes from outside. It's a sad situation when a nation can see it's past as only pro-Nazis, and tries to emphasize it's independence by attempting to destroy monument for people who fought against fascism That Jewish medic lady who is buried under that monument were not fighting to "occupy" anybody.
Well, I wasn't saying that there is antisemitism in Estonia today but it's a fair guesstimate to say that there were some of those sentiments at that time. It was pretty widespread in Europe back then.
Well tough shit: You do. Deal with it and face the realities of security, or your ideas will never be relevant.
Just to let you know Mexican who were born in US but do not know English are US citizens. And so are people of any background who were born in US. Surprised? US is not Estonia. US does not discriminates against their own people, so please stop comparing. It's very insulting. If you think that discrimination is part of proud history of Estonian nation that's fine, but leave US alone. Next time you want to compare Estonia, please choose something more appropriate (maybe Iraq during Saddam rule, he also divided people of Iraq into 'good' deserving citizenship and 'bad' who he gazed?) that way you'll make a good point.
You won't receive any reasonable answer to the discrimination question from russians. I've tried that so many times and in the end it comes down to (if it comes down) "why do we need to speak Estonian to gain citizenship" or "if I was born on estonian soil, why isn't citizenship automatically granted for me". Or in some rare cases it is "I don't feel respected here".
That I agree. I also don't think 100% pure of heart estonians of that time. I'm sure there were collaborators. But I would not put two great bads, Nazism and Stalinism to the balance. Both were extremely evil reigns and if one defeated another it doesn't make either of them better somehow. It's like having two robbers first fight with each other so that the winner can rob you and say "look, I saved you from the REALLY bad guy".
I think your point about "zero oppression of the Russian minority" is mistaken. If I were to say, there is no oppression of the African-American minority in the States, after all there are black politicians, black business leaders, I even had a black boyfriend, or whatever, that is missing the point.
Clearly there is institutional and systemic discrimination against Russians in Estonia. Just as a for instance, not a single member of PM Ansip's cabinet is an ethnic Russian. It would be unimaginable for a Canadian cabinet to contain no French Canadians, even though they compose a smaller proportion of the Canadian population than Russians do in Estonia. In fact, it's a furthering of this uncomortable truth that Estonia's political class is composed largely of the descendants of various Nazi collaborators who were driven out by the Soviets in 1942, but who continued fostering their ideas in exile, then returned in full force once independence was achieved. Of course this last thing was not so uncommon in the entire Eastern bloc, but was more heavily scrutinised by the West in some countries (Croatia) than in others (Estonia).
Finally, let's not forget the realpolitik of this situation - Estonia cannot possibly hope to take such a historical-revisionist view of its neighbour with impunity. If some small Central American nation were to erect a monument to Castro or something, you can bet the American reaction would be swift and decisive. Russia's small neighbours , as you call them, cannot seriously expect to take overtly anti-Russian actions and then complain about the inevitable backlash.
Please don't misconstrue this as my endorsement of Russia's heavy-handed foreign policy approach. I just feel like the Estonian side has been well represented in the Western media, and Russia's not at all.
Statement like that really deserve second version of Barat: Barat 2: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Estonia Seriously if you want to understand how people can live without discrimination I highly recommend visiting (or at least reading about) US. In Los Angeles people are not discriminated based on which language they speak, and many US citizens are indeed citizens despite the fact that they do not speak English. They can vote and they can work. And guess what? US is doing just fine. To believe that country must discriminate to be independed is more then silly, it just ...
Rurmo with statements like that you can easily come up up with scenario for Barat 2 (change running of Jews with Running of Russian and so on)...
While I agree with you that people can be scum no matter the nationality, I would like to point out that mr Wiesenthal isn't the most reliable source when it comes to Estonia. He made a lot of noise here but then he got one veteran to the court, he lost. Latter he has constantly spread the lie that estonian authorities rejected to collaborate with him on this matter i.e. he rarely (if ever) mentioned that he lost the court case.
Dude, that's not even feminist. It's saying women aren't technicall [sic] able. It's just a really stupid troll.
The problem is that in real historical content it's obvious that there is that clear rebirth of fascism in Estonia.
Hello, there, brigadnik. I can't say I welcome you, though. Link, please? Please to somewhere other than .fsb.ru?
Isn't this propaganda point rather dated? I mean, it's not like Russia is Communist anymore. Now that Russia is fascist, shouldn't you be talking about the gathering Commie shadow instead?
Wooo, some Russian 5kr1ptk1dd13 clogged up both of Estonia's phone lines?
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Mention not such unworthy imitations. Pirogy is what you are thinking of, the pride of Slavs.
This Russia-related discussion forum at "The Washington Post" is unusual because the forum has an obssessed, anonymous person who has tirelessly collected and posted Russia-related information from reputable Western sources across the Web. This anonymous person calls herself "Atheist", and none of the Russian KGB agents has been able to locate her and to "terminate" her.
There's a TRIVIAL way to rearchitect a network to stop DDoS cold. At a major backbones would be located simple logon scripts that only route packets that come from verified users of the website in question. To become a verified user, the user might have to answer a captcha or something simple, just enough to make a bot army attack impractical. Only users that pass this test would have their packets routed farther in. A physical wall is different. No matter what materials are used, weapons exist that could cut through it. A digital wall can be absolutely impregnable.
Are you saying there were concentration camps in Estonia? Can you please provide proof for that claim? And how many civilians did the USSR execute, by the way? I hear it's in the millions.
That said, I'm happy that Finland "embraced" the Nazi Germany and thus managed to defend itself against the soviet oppressors who would have raped this land as they did Estonia. Germany wasn't all bad, and USSR wouldn't have been any better. Are you accusing Finland of nazi sympathies too?
Open your eyes, man. Liberation is a nice word for propaganda, but that's never what really happens in a war. What happens in war is death and the best thing you can do in war is kill. There's no glory whatsoever in sending unprepared troops to die as USSR did. Never in history have the soviets actually cared about their soldiers.
Stop yelling fascism and stop to think for a moment. Try for a short moment to think how Finnish or Estonian feel about USSR and why.
The only perspective you'll ever find in any of this is here: it is a statue, a trivial amount of stone and metal. Oppressing a piece of metal is not exactly great fascism.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but no.
Implementing web site captchas at the backbone level would be anything but trivial, for one thing. For another, adding some kind of login script overhead to every packet a backbone router handles would practically be a denial-of-service attack. I really don't think it's "trivial" for Level3, say, to replace all their networking equipment to implement login scripts for every web site that comes across their network.
Now, maybe when you say "backbones" you don't mean what people commonly refer to as the internet backbone, and you're thinking of implementing this closer to the edge. That makes implementation feasible, but it won't solve the problem. Once you start getting closer to the edge - close enough that the people trying to defend themselves have the ability to implement this solution - you'll be vulnerable again. Sure, your routers may not route the bad packets, but your routers have to look at the packets to determine they shouldn't be routed. That eats up bandwidth.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
Food: pizza, hotpockets, Chinese, etc. Drink: Bawls, Jolt, cappuccino, etc.
you insensitive clods
There are two types of people in the world: 1) those that can extrapolate from incomplete data.