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Classified US Intel Budget Revealed Via Powerpoint

Atario writes "In a holdover from the Cold War when the number really did matter to national security, the size of the US national intelligence budget remains one of the government's most closely guarded secrets. The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the highest intelligence agency in the country that oversees all federal intelligence agencies, appears to have inadvertently released the keys to that number in an unclassified PowerPoint presentation now posted on the website of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). By reverse engineering the numbers in an underlying data element embedded in the presentation, it seems that the total budget of the 16 US intelligence agencies in fiscal year 2005 was $60 billion, almost 25% higher than previously believed."

364 comments

  1. Old Jedi Mind Trick by ReidMaynard · · Score: 5, Funny

    These are not the budget numbers you are looking for..

    --
    -- www.globaltics.net

    Political discussion for a new world

    1. Re:Old Jedi Mind Trick by Floydius · · Score: 1

      What do you think you are, some kind of Jedi? Mind tricks do not work on me, only money. Wait... this is money? Crap.

    2. Re:Old Jedi Mind Trick by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "You didn't really think they spent six hundred dollars on a hammer, did you?"

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  2. Guess the DoD changed their security policy by jeffs72 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is good proof that security through obscurity doesn't work.

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    1. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by dave1791 · · Score: 2, Informative

      From TFA, it soundly like somebody forgot to strip the hidden data.

      It's been taken down though, slashdotted before the first post even...

    2. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by dattaway · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Yes sir! Their policy is their mission statement:

      Committed to Excellence in Defense of The Nation

      Notice its "The Nation" and not "Our Nation."

    3. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would rather say that somebody had no idea how to import image of spreadsheet into Powerpoint not a whole spreadsheet.
      The more powerful people are, the more stupid they are. Look at Bush ;)

    4. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From TFA, it soundly like somebody forgot to strip the hidden data.

      This right here is proof as far as I'm concerned that anybody who seriously thinks that the US Government staged 9/11, shot down TWA 800, killed JFK or faked the Apollo landings really needs to have their head examined.

      Seriously. This seems like the third or forth story along these lines in as many weeks. Recall the Coalition Provisional Authority leaks because somebody couldn't disable the previous versions feature of word. And now this?

      I'm sorry, but our Government is too incompetent to manage any of the things above. I kinda wish they were in a way... then maybe Iraq wouldn't be such a mess, Katrina would have been handled correctly and 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    5. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by suspectqa · · Score: 0

      test

    6. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is good proof that security through obscurity doesn't work.

      No it isn't. The concept of "security through obscurity" has nothing to do with this, this was not an attempt to hide the actual figure in a haystack and hope no one would find it. What's going on here is called stupidity. Whoever put the slides together didn't think through what actual information was embedded in the PowerPoint, didn't understand how PowerPoint works. This has *nothing* to do with attempting to hide something, it has to do with no understand that the something was there in the first place.

      Please drop the tired cliché

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    7. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      "The nation" and "our nation" is and can be the same thing. It really depend on who is speaking and what nation they are in.

    8. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by mgblst · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This right here is proof as far as I'm concerned that anybody who seriously thinks that the US Government staged 9/11, shot down TWA 800, killed JFK or faked the Apollo landings really needs to have their head examined.
       
      Except that the "mistakes" like these are done by the government, so that you would think exactly that. You have just fallen into their trap!

      Not really, but your logic makes about as much sense as the conspiracy theorists. Just because one idiot who works for the government screwed up, doesn't imply anything about other people, and other agencies? Why would it? Just like saying someone working for one company screwed up, so all companies must be incompetent, and have been for 40 years? Do you not think that sounds screwy as well?

    9. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm left wondering if a flashy power point presentation was really needed or if the "I know how to use office" on the resume got someone looking to jazz things up and get a promotion.

      I'm also wondering it this would have been the same problem with any version of powerpoint or is something equivalent to MS power point could have avoided it all together.

      It seems to me that we have had quite a few leaks revolving around MS products, the insistence on using them, and under-qualified people using them to do the job.

    10. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by turing_m · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Obviously you've never heard of Operation Mincemeat then. You know, the one where the Allies put fake landing plans on a dead guy left to wash up on a Spanish beach.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat

      If they can successfully go to those lengths, how hard is it to accidentally-on-purpose leave some bogus figures in a Powerpoint presentation?

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    11. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The point is that most conspiracies would require a huge amount of people spread amongst many agencies, yet somehow they all remained silent and no one made a mistake. The odds of any group of people that size pulling that off once is astronomical, numerous times it inconceivable. Hell, with the moon landing people all over the world cooperated, key monitoring stations were civilians were manned by Australian civilian scientists.

      Yet somehow the government is also incompetent and inept.

    12. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by oldbusiness · · Score: 1

      "Data" wants to flow. Our artifacts facilitate this. It is up to thinking humans to build and control the dams.

    13. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by cyphercell · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that the "mistakes" like these are done by the government, so that you would think exactly that.

      I know you're joking, but it's really called misinformation and could easily be used to discourage from people estimating the real number. Maybe earlier estimates were dead on, and the DIA got a little sketched. Bottom line, intelligence like this is very weak because your main source is also your target, god only knows what they're lying and what kind of paranoid off the wall scheme they are going to come up with next.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    14. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1
      kquote>I'm left wondering if a flashy power point presentation was really needed or if the "I know how to use office" on the resume got someone looking to jazz things up and get a promotion...

      People *do not* put "I know how to use office" on their resume unless they are high school students. College students and anyone already in the work-force are assumed to know how to use Office.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    15. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This right here is proof as far as I'm concerned that anybody who seriously thinks that the US Government staged 9/11, shot down TWA 800, killed JFK or faked the Apollo landings really needs to have their head examined.

      Quite the opposite, actually.

      On 9/10/01, Rumsfeld publicly stated that the DoD cannot account for $2.3 trillion. It would have been absolutely huge news, if it had been released on any other day. Regardless, do you think that any of that unaccounted-for $2.3 trillion goes to off-the-record Intel programs? I think the number given in this article is severely underestimated, by a couple orders of magnitude.

      It proves the file exposed data that some clerk didn't intend to reveal. It doesn't prove anything about whether the input was fudged in the first place.
    16. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't use PowerPoint so I wonder. Is there a command to "strip the hidden data"?
      Do you have to go into a binary editor and see the data?
      Seems to me that this shows the dangers of a proprietary file format.
      Will the US Government now have to comb through nasty binary formats to check what data is retained and what data isn't?
      It would be nice if these file formats where open and documented wouldn't? Sure would make doing security checks on the files a lot simpler.
      Just some food for thought.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    17. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's right, group it together with fake conspiracies to avoid people exploring the physical data regarding 9-11.

      Ignore the numerous reports of people killed and injured in blasts in the basements of the WTC buildings, the work done weeks before by the security company owned by a close relative of Bush the new owner hired after buying the money loosing building, (who has made a financial windfall on the collapses).

      And above all, ---especially with this being SLASHDOT--- IGNORE the PYSICAL EVIDENCE including:

      * Magnitudes more heat in the crater than accounted for by everything in the building and all the aircraft fuel burning.

      * Rate of collapse being too high. Pancake collapses are elastic collisions.

      * Building 7 collapsed - the 3rd supposed steel frame skyscraper in history to allegedly collapse due to fire, 1st and 2nd were buildings 1 & 2. Yes, the fire-department DID recover nearly all the fuel in the emergency generator tanks.

    18. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by lessthan · · Score: 1, Informative

      You are going too deep. PowerPoint provides a tool in which you enter the data into an Excel spreadsheet (contained in PowerPoint) and PowerPoint generates a pretty graph. The spreadsheet is hidden after you finish with it, both in display mode and in edit mode. It remains though, accessible to a user for editing. The only way around leaving the data behind is taking a screenshot and using that in the actual presentation and posting for all the world to see. Otherwise, a quick double click and all you data is exposed.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    19. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by arieswind · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you might think this.. but in the company i work at, we have to have training sessions every few months because people forget how to use word over time if they arent continuously retaught (these are all people that are 25-50)

    20. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      Training classes? Do people actually forget the basics? If you need more, buy a reference book. Jesus.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    21. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Sounds like one shouldn't post PowerPoint files on the Internet.
      Sounds like they would have been safe if they had printed it to a PDF or converted it to HTML.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    22. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by jZnat · · Score: 1

      It's most likely buried in the options somewhere in Powerpoint.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    23. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I don't know. I have seen a lot of job ads that say MS office skills a must. It would seem if they didn't put it in the resume, the employer wouldn't know if you had them.

    24. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by robotkid · · Score: 1
      Not really, but your logic makes about as much sense as the conspiracy theorists. Just because one idiot who works for the government screwed up, doesn't imply anything about other people, and other agencies? Why would it?

      Although I agree the logic of the argument doesn't work, the poster's point was more subtle. Yes, everyone agrees when circumstances are right the "government" would rather pull a fast one on us instead of look bad. However, the sheer scale and intricacy of many proposed conspiracy theories require entire civilian agencies to work like so many well-oiled, evil organizations from a James Bond movie rather than the behemoths of bureaucratic inefficiency that they actually are. Not to mention, *every* single employee of said organizations involved in such conspiracies (which by sheer scale alone require tens of thousands of highly technically proficient personnel to pull off) would have to be prevented from intentionally or inadvertently leaking any the juicy details for the last 40 years. I mean, a military of paramilitary organization might have a chance at keeping a big secret, but we're talking about agencies like NASA here.
      If you want to have a good laugh, screen the movie "capricorn one" with a bunch of NASA employees (it involves a vast NASA conspiracy complete with armed thugs and a secret sound-state in the desert, starring O.J. Simpson as an astronaut!!!) Amusingly, the latter is slightly more believable than the former if you've ever dealt with the NASA bureaucracy.

    25. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by plague3106 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This right here is proof as far as I'm concerned that anybody who seriously thinks that the US Government staged 9/11, shot down TWA 800, killed JFK or faked the Apollo landings really needs to have their head examined.

      Right... because some office worker is dumb (or simply didn't know the need to strip the data), it then follows that EVERYONE in the government is just as dumb / incompetent.

      Very good logic there.

    26. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Just like saying someone working for one company screwed up, so all companies must be incompetent, and have been for 40 years? Do you not think that sounds screwy as well?"

      Yes, it does sound screwy. But it is also true.

      Do you really think that it was "part of the plan" that the "Big 3" major American automakers got eclipsed by Toyota? Or that we're slowly but surely getting our clocks cleaned by the Chinese in almost every other manufacturing industry? Or that American companies haven't really got a toehold in Asia after trying to break in for over 20 years?

      Most big American companies are incompetent, for the same reason that the American government is incompetent -- and it's not because of "someone working for one company".

      Big business in America, like America's government, have set the bar so low on competence and performance in the interests of helping their friends and allies that we've got a generation (or more) of leaders out there who have absolutely no idea what they're doing. These same leaders then hire people who they have the most affinity too -- bright, shiney, but incompetent synchophants who stay alive by obscuring their failures with re-definitions of success, reorganizations and the occasional leveraged buyout (where they are the buyee).

      If they'd just converted the damn PowerPoint to a PDF they wouldn't have lost the secret data! Of course, I guess that's too much to ask of a legacy from Yale or Harvard.

    27. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

      Hate to disappoint you, but plenty of adminstrative people put that on their resumes. I know Electrical Engineers who still seem to think it's valid too despite having a decade of real experience. If you really think nobody puts it on their resumes, you haven't been hiring many people lately.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    28. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by ericlondaits · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, it's not a problem with office programs, it's a problem with the idea that "What you see is all there is". I remember a while back someone attempted to blank out portions of a PDF document by giving lines of black text a black background... which of course didn't remove the confidential data from the file, just prevented naive users from seeing it.

      --
      As a Slashdot discussion grows longer, the probability of an analogy involving cars approaches one.
    29. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by paganizer · · Score: 1

      OK. Here is how my version of the conspiracy goes.
      Haliburton and friends nned something to assure profits and continued dominance; they contact their insiders at the various intelligence agencies, and see what sort of investigations are going on.
      after sorting through the various threats available, they come across a relatively promising one, some guys planning to hijack some planes & use them as weapons.
      They sign off on the op, and direct their intel agents to make sure that the people of this group are left alone; no support, just losing documentation on the group, making sure any agents working on them are reassigned elewhere, etc.
      they keep their controlled agents looking at things, so they know what is going down and when, in general. If anyone gets curious, they tell them that the group is low threat, or that they don't have enough evidence yet.
      when they find out that there is a date set for the terrorist, and what the target is, they go ahead and let only their most trustworthy friends know; some of them probably make use of the information to make a fortune on the stock market, others make sure they don't lose anything. Other, more high profile types, make sure they have optimum propaganda plans in effect.
      Maybe, someone goes in and plants thermite packets on the internal supports of the building. can't be proved or disproved, but it goes along with the theory well.
      Everyone makes out like a bandit. of the 10-70 people who are "in the know", they know better than to say anything, life will be destroyed for themselves and their loved ones if they talk.

      --
      Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
    30. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by h2g2bob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Depends what you mean - MS Office and OpenOffice have some pretty advanced features like spreadsheet formulas, cross references, tracking revisions of documents, using special characters, breaks and nonbreaking spaces, and integrating with external data (eg mail merge). I don't think it's easy at all.

    31. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, this is "insecurity through incompetence".

    32. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not kidding. They're social events. All the excited 40+ administrators gather in a computer lab and laugh, play and work for their lunch hour. I'd consider it pitiful - if it didn't work. But it does. Then they go back and are able to do every-other-page-except-for-the-first-page page numbering without blinking twice.

    33. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by skintigh2 · · Score: 1

      I agree with most of what you are saying but I'm not sure I agree with your logic.

      If you were to argue that it is impossible for an organization as large as the government to have 0% mistake rate in keeping secrets, I wouldn't disagree. Or the idea that not a single non-US government entity ever trained their RADAR on the Apollo missions is ridiculous, for example, I would not disagree.

      But your argument that 1 person making a mistake in MS Office = teh government is incompetent... seems like you've traded one meme for another. I recall FEMA being extremely efficient handling hurricanes and even evacuating car-less people before major hurricanes in Florida. FEMA was so efficient at handling emergencies and natural disasters like the California earthquake that Japan based their earthquake response on FEMA, but this was before a certain administration took over. An administration from a party that insists big government doesn't work, and seems dead set to prove it every time they are in charge...

    34. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by kalirion · · Score: 1

      If 24 has taught us anything it's that just because the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, doesn't mean that there's no phantom arm pulling the strings.

    35. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by random0xff · · Score: 0

      That's what they want you to believe.

      Seriously, we could do this all day, but remember the one about malice vs. stupidity? The world is not a James Bond movie...

    36. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I always feel like the CIA is the stupid cover agency for the "real" agency that is effective. To some extent, this is sort of true via the NSA vs CIA.

      I also think the real purpose of a lot of our financial aid is to keep nations in africa and other places balkanized and ineffectual.

      But I'm just paranoid.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    37. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't do the hireing, but I've assumed that people who put that on their resume lack real stuff to put there. Guess I'm wrong. I'll have to put it back on my resume.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    38. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Ok, the moon landing would be a giant conspiracy, but how many people would it take to conspire to kill JFK? Five? How about taking down the WTC towers and WTC7 with explosive after Bin Laden's planes hit them? In other words, how big is a buildings demolition team? Forty people?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    39. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 1

      A great many people can't even be bothered to use the dictionary. What makes you think they will consult a reference book on software?

    40. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that I think it's a good thing though. Personally I agree, this is stuff you only put on your resume if you need fodder or if it's directly applicable to your expected duties (such as for admin types).

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    41. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by boyko.at.netqos · · Score: 1

      Ever notice that whenever some great disaster happens in the U.S. that is exacerbated by lack of government response, it almost never effects - and is usually good for - the Bush Administration and their supporters?

      --
      I used to work for NetQoS. I no longer do, but want to keep the excellent karma attached to this account.
    42. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Tucan · · Score: 1
      The world is not a James Bond movie...

      , but The World Is Not Enough.

    43. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by A+non-mouse+Coward · · Score: 1

      Riiiight.
      Because the old strategy of "throwing a dog a bone" doesn't apply to politics??? I think that mass-conspiracies are just as unlikely as the next guy (and I'm willing to agree that this doesn't look well for the Gov't), but how does one logically get from Step 1 "they're out to get me" to Step 2 "they're bumbling idiots that cannot do anything right". Ever stop to think that maybe they wanted that number leaked?

      --
      libertarian: (n) socially liberal, financially conservative; neither left, nor right.
    44. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Darby · · Score: 2, Funny

      This right here is proof as far as I'm concerned that anybody who seriously thinks that the US Government ... faked the Apollo landings really needs to have their head examined.

      Ok, Mr Smart Guy.
      If the US government didn't fake the Apollo landings, then *who did* fake the Apollo landings, hmmmmmmmmmm?

    45. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by flooey · · Score: 1

      No, it's not a problem with office programs, it's a problem with the idea that "What you see is all there is". I remember a while back someone attempted to blank out portions of a PDF document by giving lines of black text a black background... which of course didn't remove the confidential data from the file, just prevented naive users from seeing it.

      This is why when the NSA releases redacted classified documents, they do it by printing out the document, going over it with a black marker, and then scanning the result back in and releasing the page images (nowadays, in PDF). Some people see that and think they're idiots, but really, they're just guaranteeing that what you see is all you get.

    46. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you've never heard of Operation Mincemeat then. You know, the one where the Allies put fake landing plans on a dead guy left to wash up on a Spanish beach.

      A) Consider the times. Communications were a *lot* more rudimentary back then. Overseas calls were probably strictly controlled via trusted operators (no automatic call routing back then). Radio signals would've been noticed. I doubt there was regular mail service between the UK and the occupied continent.

      B) Operation Mincemeat used a minimum number of players to make it happen. In glancing through the Wikipedia article, I think we're talking a number well south of 100. On the sub itself, probably a number under a dozen (the captain + officers) who knew the story.

      C) Consider the timing. From conception to execution, probably a few months. And it only needed to stay secret for 2-3 more months (I believe the attacks were launched in June/July 1943). After that point (i.e. after the war) I'm not sure how long it took for the story to be published.

    47. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Quato · · Score: 0

      DoD? Did you read the Wiki you linked? Sounds like a lot of Brits were involved, didn't see the good ol' USA mentioned much.

    48. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Your.Master · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It isn't just a building's demolitions team that would have to be in on it anymore than it's just the few people who have walked on the moon who would have to be lying. You have to add all the civil engineers who are insisting that the alleged interior explosives were entirely unnecessary to cause the fall of the WTC towers. And all the security in those buildings that should have stopped such demolitions, and all the people involved in hiring and finding those 40 people, and... I mean, if it were that easy, wouldn't Al Qaeda have just sent the demolitions people themselves rather than mucking about with airplanes? Unless Al Qaeda wasn't really involved, in which case, the scope of the conspiracy has just grown further.

    49. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Johnny5000 · · Score: 1

      Committed to Excellence in Defense of The Nation
      Wow, they really take the First Amendment seriously!

      --
      The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
    50. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      And, mgblst, the other other logical failure on the above post is the suggestion that there were no screwups on 9/11/01 and with the other events. (The moon landing wasn't fake, BTW!)

      The disrepancies of the Warren Commission "investigation" (Gee, imagine having a commission where half the people on it were fired by the victim: JFK, and the individual who is used to typecast the "assassin" as a nut job [General Walker] was fired - with prejudice - by the victim: JFK!!!!) along with the crash of Flight 93 - but I'm sure there will be many who accept the official story on Flight 800 even though 4 military pilot witnesses along with hundreds of others, suggest otherwise......

    51. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by sgt_doom · · Score: 0, Troll

      Please ignore the post below yours (the one signed Your Master) as this clown obviously has no real life experience. The number for the 9/11/01 attacks: roughly 17 to 25 total - along with clueless support personnel. As to why we haven't heard from those clueless (as in innocent parties) support personnel - show some unAmerican initiative and do some research on the passenger lists of the four commercial airliners that day.......

    52. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Boronx · · Score: 1

      I agree with you WRT the moon landings, but what massive bureaucracy did Al Qaeda utilize for the 9/11 attacks? Why did the JFK assassination required a massive conspiracy when a small one would have, and probably did, do the trick?

      Let's also make no mistake about it: these were conspiracies. The only question is who was in on them. How many people think Jack Ruby acted out of grief, or that the Saudi and Pakistani intelligence services were never tipped off about 9/11?

    53. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      You have to add all the civil engineers who are insisting that the alleged interior explosives were entirely unnecessary to cause the fall of the WTC towers. I don't think they have to be "in" on it. They just have to believe in the official story, just like most everyone else in the country. That, and anyone seriously questioning the collapse of the tower looks like a conspiracy nut and gets fired from their job.

      And all the security in those buildings that should have stopped such demolitions, I think this can be a case for social engineering. If you have Bush's brother in charge of security for the towers, and you have '''construction'' going on at the various floors, who is going to think twice about construction buys carrying equipment in? Not the security guards at the desks, who got the word from their boss that there would be construction at various floors.

      and all the people involved in hiring and finding those 40 people, and... They would be existing military demolitions black-ops people, who have no problem assassinating people or blowing things up. Read about how G. Gordon Liddy had plotted to kill journalist Jack Anderson when Nixon told him "we need to get rid of this Anderson guy".

      I mean, if it were that easy, wouldn't Al Qaeda have just sent the demolitions people themselves rather than mucking about with airplanes? I'm not saying it would be easy to blow the towers and WTC7 up with explosives. I'm just saying you could do it with a small number of people. It's much easier to fly planes into buildings. But if the buildings collapse in a terrorist attack, rather than just suffer minor damange, you can get the patriot act passed, go to war to re-shape the middle east and carve up the oil reserves for the multinational oil conglomerates, and collect millions of dollars of insurance money.
      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    54. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      Finally, someone who understands the intel craft, Good Citizen turing_m.

      Many years ago, when I was in the US military during the draft, they were routinely sending teams out to pick up jettisoned satellite spy film from space ---- even though they were in actuality transmitted said data directly from the satellite to ground stations - they just wanted the Sovs to think they still weren't capable of direct transmission. That, and who knows how many other cutout-type ops they were doing, and continue to do......and to support your point - who knows how much shadow ops monies are going into TIA and future 9/11/01s (I'd keep a close eye on the ports, if I was curious.....)....

    55. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by angst_ridden_hipster · · Score: 1

      remember the one about malice vs. stupidity

      I've always phrased it slightly differently: never attribute to malice or stupidity that which can be explained by malice *and* stupidity.

      --
      Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
      www.fogbound.net
    56. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by J'raxis · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Really faulty logic there. Just because a government is capable of making incredibly mind-boggling mistakes, does not mean the same government is not capable of conducting other activities extremely well. Let's remember that the US government:

      • has to track, in order to collect taxes, the incomes of over a million Americans down to the nearest dollar,
      • is responsible for running the biggest military system in the world,
      • is apparently able to wiretap many if not all Internet users in the country,
      • has the largest prison system in the world (2.2 million Americans in prison),
      • has a law enforcement apparatus to enforce the war on drugs worth about $40 billion,
      • and has an intelligence-gathering infrastructure worth $60 billion dollars according to this very story.

      Those are just a few data points to get you thinking about what they can do. Yes, the system is rife with corruption and inefficiency at all levels, but it works. If your government can do all of the above, on a yearly basis, what makes you think that coordinating a single strike on three buildings with three airplanes would be impossible?

      [Footnote: I don't think the US government is "behind" 2001-09-11. My own theory is that they intentionally let it happen, but that's beside the point. My point here is that they are clearly capable of committing such an action.]

    57. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by dbIII · · Score: 1

      That implies a level of competancy that is not consistant with the actions of the current administration.

    58. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I don't use PowerPoint so I wonder. Is there a command to "strip the hidden data"?

      There's "strings" which can run on a lot of platforms and used to be the way I would read all those two line word attachments people used to send when they were learning how to use email.

    59. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by tjstork · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying it would be easy to blow the towers and WTC7 up with explosives. I'm just saying you could do it with a small number of people.

      Plus, with their secret mind control rays, the government could easily keep a small number of people's actions protected from a larger crowd. See "Operation Jedi Mind Trick". Lucky you had your metal reflection system mounted on your cranium, to disrupt those beams and get the truth to us!

      --
      This is my sig.
    60. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Hubbell · · Score: 1

      JFK is thought to have been assassinated by people within the government/banking industry for trying to bring back the gold standard iirc, either that or removing the federal reserve. Can't be assed to look it up for sure at the moment, but it was one of those two things.

    61. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Yes, remember that you need a tin-foil hat. Only tin foil blocks the rays. Aluminum foil actually focuses them, right into your brain!

      Now isn't it suspicious that you can only find aluminum foil in the stores these days? Hm!

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    62. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by tjstork · · Score: 1

      Even worse, but everyone knows that drinking a small amount of mercury will render your blood immune to the effects of these rays, but the government conspiracy has already declared that mercury is a poison that makes you insane, in order to keep people mentally controlled.

      --
      This is my sig.
    63. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Oh really? I had heard that the government was putting mercury in the vaccinations to make your whole body more metallic, and thus a better receiver of the mind control rays.

      Let the battle of the conspiracies begin!

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    64. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      The CIA is a very strange agency. Because of their policies regarding Secret and Top Secret information, no one knows what their role is except so far as is necessary for their performance. In effect, this makes the CIA a bunch of agencies kind of sort of working together toward the presidentially mandated goals.

      This level of secrecy from each other makes pulling off a conspiracy a cinch, once a person has reached the sufficient level of influence. Even if thousands of people are needed to pull one off, only a handful of people in the right places have to know about it.

      This is why conspiracy theorists love/hate the CIA. The Agency is designed to obfuscate their agenda while still reaching their goal.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    65. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by turing_m · · Score: 1

      "The world is not a James Bond movie..."

      No, it's not. But there are segments of it that bear more than a passing similarity to "The Good Shepherd".

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    66. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Burntfinger · · Score: 1

      There's a reason people consider government workers dolts - they have to deal with them! Everything from the day long wait to get a driver's license renewed to three week waiting times for an urgent care appointment at the VA to the bundle of brains who paves seven (7)miles of road and then decides to put in culverts is more rhan enough to convince most people that we're dealing with a large collection of village idiots.

    67. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by asninn · · Score: 1

      "The odds of any group of people that size pulling that off once is astronomical, numerous times it inconceivable."

      That's an ad hoc assertion for which you provide no evidence whatsoever. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories myself, but I think you should refute them based on actual evidence/proof that they're incorrect, not simply brush them aside with snide remarks or unsubstantiated claims.

      --
      butter the donkey
    68. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by asninn · · Score: 1

      You're not really all that paranoid, I think. "Divide and conquer" has long been an effective strategy; of course, these days, the "conquer" part wouldn't really be all that popular, but you can still do "divide and control" or at least "divide and influence" (which will be done depends on many factors - how rich the countries in question are, how large they are, how close they are to you culturally, and so on).

      Politics *are* a dirty game, especially behind closed doors; people who think otherwise are simply naive.

      --
      butter the donkey
    69. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by turing_m · · Score: 1

      And somehow the good ol' US of A spends $60 billion dollars on intelligence services and none of that will buy enough competence, somewhere, to get three people together:
      a) Someone to come up with the scheme.
      b) Someone who is to give a presentation with supposed secret figures embedded in it made to look like an accident.
      c) Another person who is to either "discover" this information or leak it to someone else to "discover" it?

      You'd have to be an Ayn Rand cultist whose only contact with anyone in government, anywhere, has been with clerical schlubs in the DMV to believe that of the millions of people in government service, every single one is incompetent simply by virtue of who is writing the checks. Or that there are so few competent and trustworthy individuals that they can't be assembled to make a competent team who will keep their mouths shut.

      And for an actual example of successful US disinformation, ever heard of SDI?

      http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/experience/sp ies/spy.files/disinformation/starwars.html

      How about the effort to kill Yamamoto in the Pacific? America used disinformation successfully to cover up the fact that they had broken the JN25 code used by the Japanese Navy.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    70. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Eivind · · Score: 1

      There are other examples like that, particularily in WW-II there was a lot of cat-and-mouse.

      For example, the Allies where capable of reading most of the german encrypted transmissions, but wanted the germans to keep thinking these where secure, otherwise they migth change encryption-system to another more difficult to crack one.

      This lead to a lot of operations that must've seemed silly to everyone involved that didn't know or suspect the truth.

      Observation-planes where sent to locations where it was *known* that german boats where, with orders saying essentially: "circle close enough that the germans spot you, then return home", so that the germans would believe they where spotted by the planes, rather than the reality -- that the broken codes had told the Allies their precise location and heading

      Code-books where *deliberatedly* "lost", in atleast one case officers (who'd been taugth that the code-books where literally life-and-death important not to lose) where forced at gunpoint to "lose" code-books. The reason ? Trough listening in on Enigma-encrypted communications, the allies knew that the germans could already read a certain code. So they wanted an "excuse" to stop using that code. The lost code-books gave that excuse, while giving the germans nothing they didn't already have.

    71. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      Dude wait.

      Unless, like, they deliberately leaked this so that we'd *think* they were incompetent. It's like X-Files, man. They cover the truth by leaking small bits of it and making the whistle blowers look crazy.

      Here, try these brownies, man.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    72. Re:Guess the DoD changed their security policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey asshat did it occur to you yet that maybe some of us here are old enough to be yer goddamn father? Maybe the guy did and maybe he didn't but either way I don't think he was BS'ing.

  3. I knew it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    I have always been saying that MS products have no place in government. This is a glaring example of why.

    1. Re:I knew it by Marcion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Funnily enough for the first few seconds I read it as Intel computers, bit of a bad choice of abbreviation for a Tech website, next story will be "EU bans AMD", referring to acid mine drainage no doubt.

    2. Re:I knew it by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have always been saying that MS products have no place in government

      Yes, because this is all Microsoft's fault. It has nothing to do whatsoever with the incompetence of the person/people who created this Powerpoint show and left classified data in the version that was released to the public.

      If only the Feds were using an open-source solution. An open-source slide show program would have been smart enough to realize that they left classified data in the document and would have alerted them prior to the document being released to the public.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:I knew it by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe not, but an OSS program would have allowed them to modify the source so "invisible" classified data CANNOT be included in a report that leaves the system. Ya know, they do have pretty good proggers...

      MS is notorious for leaving too much information in the document without being visible to the plain eye.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:I knew it by Random+BedHead+Ed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have always been saying that MS products have no place in government. This is a glaring example of why.

      No, while I'd usually agree with you, this is a glaring example of why more people in government should use MS products. Can we get PowerPoint installed on more desktops in the Justice Department?

    5. Re:I knew it by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      MS is notorious for leaving too much information in the document without being visible to the plain eye.

      Yes they are and it's more then fair to say that. It's not fair however to make a blanket statement of "MS products have no place in government. This is a glaring example of why."

      The only thing that this is a "glaring example" of is of ID10T users that can't follow proper procedure for handling classified information. One would suspect that heads will probably roll over this -- even though it wasn't that serious of a leak.

      Some users in Government take classified data home with them to work on it even though that is specifically against procedure. Is that also Microsoft's fault?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:I knew it by aslate · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is a plain, simple and well-known feature of MS Office that frankly is very useful. If you copy a spreadsheet graph across, the data also gets copied across so you are able to modify it later.

      So what would the advantage of OSS software give? They could modify the program so that this data doesn't get released? Great. So we have a program that magically knows what data is classified, or we have a classified flag that can be added (or forgotten to be added by clerical staff). Would you allow classified data to be used to create a graph? Probably not.

      As far as i remember OOo implements graph and data copying between various OOo applications in exactly the same way too. This is simply the poor sod that had to make the slideshow either not realising or forgetting that this happens.

      This is why documents like this PowerPoint should be distributed in some format like a PDF, there is no reason to be able to modify the slideshow publically or see the source behind any of the graphics, charts or diagrams.

    7. Re:I knew it by toleraen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's funny, because I can open up PowerPoint and select "Remove Hidden Data", which coincidentally enough is a feature I pulled from Microsoft's site. It does a fantastic job of removing all that hidden data, too. This is pure user error in not using this function; it has absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft versus OSS.

    8. Re:I knew it by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      If only the Feds were using an open-source solution. An open-source slide show program would have been smart enough to realize that they left classified data in the document and would have alerted them prior to the document being released to the public.

      How hard would it be to add a feature where hidden text, and graph data off the currently-shown scales, caused the program to throw up a big red warning box whenever the document was saved?

      Seems that would be trivial for the US intelligence services to add to OpenOffice.org, what with their $60 billion to spend on it.~~ Might be harder and costlier for them to get Microsoft to add it, especially if that meant they would need to upgrade all computers to Office 2007.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    9. Re:I knew it by wolfgang_spangler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does it really do it though? I'm not saying that it doesn't, but past experience would not lead me to trust that it would work as advertised.

    10. Re:I knew it by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      How hard would it be for you to add a warning box that pops up when you try to save, warning you that "hidden data exists, are you sure you want so save with it?"

      Would it be easier for you to add that, say by next Tuesday, in Microsoft PowerPoint or an alternative solution?

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    11. Re:I knew it by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      How about a simple solution: When the document is saved to a place labeled "unclassified" all the invisible data is stripped automatically.

      Sometimes there is actually a technical solution.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:I knew it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah... it's not like using PDFs have ever revealed anything that was 'marked out'.... :rolleyes:

    13. Re:I knew it by toleraen · · Score: 1

      You must not work with Office files much. If I had to click through a warning every time I saved (hint: every 5 minutes or so), I'd immediately start writing a program that disables that warning.

    14. Re:I knew it by Atario · · Score: 1

      Funnily enough for the first few seconds I read it as Intel computers, bit of a bad choice of abbreviation for a Tech website


      I hit the length limit for Slashdot headlines. Complain to Taco, not me!

      next story will be "EU bans AMD", referring to acid mine drainage no doubt.


      And you thought it was tough working in a salt mine...
      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    15. Re:I knew it by dcam · · Score: 1

      ...which coincidentally enough is a feature I pulled from Microsoft's site...

      But not installed by default.

      --
      meh
    16. Re:I knew it by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      If you worked with classified documents, you'd end up in jail if you wrote such a program.

      Maybe instead the DoD should add a 1/2" red banner at the top of the window that warns "Hidden data exists". Again, much simpler to implement in any open source application than in Windows, especially if the machines cannot run the latest Office.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    17. Re:I knew it by toleraen · · Score: 1

      Depends on how you define "simpler to implement." Getting approval to install an open source program with the latest warning advisory to view your top secret documents on a top secret desktop wouldn't exactly be a walk in the park. Actually you wouldn't be walking anywhere, because you'd get your knee caps broken for installing it anyway.

    18. Re:I knew it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither is Office, is it genius?

    19. Re:I knew it by WiPEOUT · · Score: 1

      So who is at fault:

      1. The user, for not knowing that the black-box implementation of Office documents can and does leave underlying data and previously-deleted information within documents, when there is nothing in the application UI to point this out?

      2. Microsoft for building their software to silently include such information?

      Your typical user will have no idea this is occurring, much less that they can search for "remove hidden data" in the Microsoft technical support knowledge base to find a tool that allows documents to be purged of unnecessary information.

    20. Re:I knew it by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Duh, I'm assuming that the Powers That Be decide everyone will now use this special, internal version of OpenOffice, then lock down the machines so nothing else can be installed. That's likely no different that now, except now they use Office and the Powers That Be have to go beg at Microsoft for changes.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  4. Stargate by d3ac0n · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well, they have to fund the Stargate program SOMEHOW don't they? Why not take the money from an agency that nobody would suspect of being involved? :)

    --
    Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    1. Re:Stargate by Aranykai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No no, your all wrong. They funded SG project with all the money they siphoned from NASA when they faked the moon landings. Any REAL nerd would know that...

      --
      If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
    2. Re:Stargate by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Don't they fund the SG project through patents on alien technology held by shell companies?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:Stargate by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Oh c'mon, don't you watch your MiB? They fund all those alien programs with patents gained from alien technology.

      Why the hell do you think they're so head over heels with the protection of intellectual property? Because of some industries? Oh c'mon...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Stargate by fm6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I thought the Stargate program pays for itself (indeed, even turns a profit) by selling off all the technology they brought back.

      I've always been amused by the premise of this franchise. It comes from one a (supposedly) non-fiction book called The Stargate Conspiracy, which claims that a secret cabal is bringing back alien technology through a portal dug up in Egypt, and trading it for money and power. The amusing thing is that the TV show makes the same people who were the evil conspirators in the book into the good guys!

    5. Re:Stargate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you actually checked, you would discover that the book came out after the film (and a couple years after the TV series began), so evidently the author literally took their conspiracy theory right off of a science fiction show.

    6. Re:Stargate by Malakusen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The amusing thing is that the TV show makes the same people who were the evil conspirators in the book into the good guys!


      Well, if you were behind the evil conspiracy revealed in that book, wouldn't something like this be the ideal way to defuse the book and its accusations?

      Duh
      --
      Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to conviction
    7. Re:Stargate by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      If you actually checked, you would discover that the book came out after the film (and a couple years after the TV series began), so evidently the author literally took their conspiracy theory right off of a science fiction show.

      Did it? Did it indeed? Maybe it did, and maybe it didn't.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    8. Re:Stargate by Mathness · · Score: 1
      If you are thinking SG is a TV show you are under the secret cabals evil mind control, better check your tin foil hat. Additionally I got some good and bad news for you. And even horrible news...

      The Stargate Conspiracy is real (bad) and when you think you are watching SG, you are actually remembering an OP you were on (good). If you get a non SG fan to tell you what you are actually watching, they will tell you it is Barbie the doll animated adventures (horrible).

      :P

      --
      Carbon based humanoid in training.
    9. Re:Stargate by TranscendentalAnarch · · Score: 1

      Just take the money from the Spanish Inquisition, nobody expects that.

    10. Re:Stargate by fm6 · · Score: 1

      No self-respecting Evil Cabal would stoop to such a wimpy strategy. The only way to deal with somebody who's trying to out you is to have them discretely murdered (or at least confined in an insane asylum) and have every copy of their book destroyed.

    11. Re:Stargate by afidel · · Score: 1

      They really fund it through a lucrative TV series and spinoffs based on their actual mission reports =)

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    12. Re:Stargate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      SGC funding is under congressional oversight, with operations under multi-national review... I don't think tech out of Area 51 funds the program.

  5. In the Words of Nelson: by thesupermikey · · Score: 1, Funny

    HA! HA!

    take that classified info!

    --
    Mikey
    I've always been the kinda guy to fall for the girl dressed like an eskimo.
    1. Re:In the Words of Nelson: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought Nelson's words were: "Kiss me, Hardy"?

    2. Re:In the Words of Nelson: by Speedracer1870 · · Score: 1

      ...and they spend all this money investigating your past for a clearance. Maybe they should investigate a person's stupidity level instead. "Here are 4 shapes. Put each in the correct hole."

    3. Re:In the Words of Nelson: by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I would bet that only a small percentage of that goes into investigating your past. I would also bet that those type of investigations are only done when you do certain things apply for a passport, get caught up talking to suspected terrorist and so on.

    4. Re:In the Words of Nelson: by hazem · · Score: 1

      For Army Top Secret clearances, it's almost entirely investigating your past. While waiting to be questioned for mine, I was on a detail that spent entire days shredding old reports that were made investigating people.

      The funny thing is this. They don't seem to care too much if you have been a bad person - stealing, doing drugs, assaulting people. They really only care if you admitted to it or not.

      I once requested my dossier and it was just pages and pages of an officer's report saying "Went to place ___. They had nothing negative to report about the subject." I'm sure all that foot-work costs quite a bit.

    5. Re:In the Words of Nelson: by geekboy642 · · Score: 1

      As somebody who was turned down for a top secret clearance, I can say that they go VERY in depth. First step was pulling all the federal records...credit report, medical, arrest record(yay.)
      Then they talked to my parents, every one of the five references I gave, and my neighbors. Then they put all that together in a file and interrogated me for half an hour under polygraph. Then they went out and talked to every person that my neighbors and references and parents talked about as being associated with me.

      --
      Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
    6. Re:In the Words of Nelson: by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

      You'd be wrong. Well, partly anyway. Most of the money is spent on the manpower involved in actually putting a live person out there to talk to neighbors, friends, and relatives, etc. (It does happen, even when you haven't done anything noteworthy in your past) And on the beaurocracy involved in any kind of large undertaking overseen by an even larger organization.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
  6. Link to the actual PowerPoint slideshow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
  7. Important information from the article... by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The intelligence community is so large and diverse, that it is literally quite possible that the government itself didn't know how much money was spent on "intelligence".

    Not because of incompetence, corruption, waste, or secrecy - though all those are certainly elements to varying degrees - but in reality because of the wide variety of agencies and activities that fall under the guise of "intelligence".

    The article itself notes, correctly:

    This top line $60 billion figure is 25% above the estimated $48 billion budget for FY 08. It is quite probable that this total figure was not even known by the government until recently. Greater control and oversight of the Intelligence Community budget was a hallmark of the Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 that created the position of the Director of National Intelligence and gave it the mandate to get an overview of the entire amount spent on intelligence government-wide. To this end, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has recently gathered all parts of the previously fragmented Intelligence Community budget together for the first time as part of its Intelligence Resource Information System (IRIS). In the report from the Select Senate Committee on Intelligence released last Thursday, the committee praised the Office of the Director of Intelligence for creating a "single budget system called the Intelligence Resource Information System." It also recognizes their efforts in helping create what "will be used for further inquiry by the Committee's budget and audit staffs and will be a baseline that allows the Congress and DNI to derive trend data from future reports."

    Earlier, lower estimates were most likely only included what fell directly under the Director of Central Intelligence and which would have omitted parts of NSA, NRO. A total Intelligence Community number, with the Intelligence Community as defined by 50 U.S.C. 401a(4), would also now include the various military intelligence services (e.g. Army Intel, Navy Intel, etc.), each with its respective weapon technology intelligence exploitation shop. A total budget would also include a large portion of the budget of the Department of Homeland Security which was previously fragment across multiple government agencies. A $60 billion government-wide Intelligence Community budget is not at all out of line with the post 9/11 organizational reality. It seems that the Office of the Director of National Intelligence is just now getting a clear picture of the fragmented intelligence community budget.


    When you're dealing with sixteen separate agencies, including elements from the Department of Defense, to say something like "intelligence budget" is almost meaningless. What's pure intelligence? What's national defense? What is a mix? In fact, it often comes down to what some particular task or program is "anointed" by management. Different areas get reorganized and shuffled into different organizational structures. To say nothing of the fact that the addition of DHS to the Intelligence Community was the largest government reorganization in over a half-century, since the creation of the Department of Defense and CIA by the National Security Act of 1947.

    Shuffle more, and you can probably make the "intelligence" budget appear lower. But the truth is that "it seems that the Office of the Director of National Intelligence is just now getting a clear picture of the fragmented intelligence community budget."

    And that should be a good thing.

    On a different note, revealing classified or sensitive information by improper handling of technology solutions is a perennial problem, and it still floors me that the vetting and release process doesn't properly capture things like this (though they've gotten MUCH better).

    1. Re:Important information from the article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      "Military Intelligence" : my all time favourite oxymoron.

    2. Re:Important information from the article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Question is, does it include the recent trend of outsourcing intelligence work ?
      I'm thinking of Vanity Fair's interesting article about SAIC.

      http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/0 3/spyagency200703?printable=true&currentPage=all

    3. Re:Important information from the article... by rwhamann · · Score: 1

      Isn't everyone tired of this joke by now?

      --
      seg fault
    4. Re:Important information from the article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "On a different note, revealing classified or sensitive information by improper handling of technology solutions is a perennial problem, and it still floors me that the vetting and release process doesn't properly capture things like this (though they've gotten MUCH better)."

      We can only dream, sir, we can only dream.

      Perhaps one day, in the distant future, all government operations will be kept a strictly guarded secret, without leaks nor defections, and (for the benefit of the citizens, of course) the office-holders and lobbyists will assume their rightful crown at the peak of humanity.

      For now, we are condemned to a Hell of embarrassing revelations. Why cannot the citizenry accept that we are their just Lords and Protectors, assigned by God to watch over them (in exchange for a meager 30% of their lifetime earnings)? No, they insist on probing and peeking, ferreting out information that only the ruling class deserves to know.

    5. Re:Important information from the article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. :)

    6. Re:Important information from the article... by daveschroeder · · Score: 3, Informative

      Question is, does it include the recent trend of outsourcing intelligence work ?

      Um, yes, that's what this entire issue is about.

      The blog that contains this article is called "The Spy Who Billed Me: Outsourcing the War on Terror", and the presentation itself is titled "Procuring the Future", and is entirely dedicated to contractors and contract acquisition, and the fact that the IC couldn't function or do its job without the variety of speciality contractors and services. The way the IC budget was "deduced" was by seeing dollars spent on contractors, and the knowledge that constituted "70%" of spending.

      Yeah, the contract issue in general is one of concern, but, like all things, it's not simply "good" or "bad"; it has benefits, drawbacks, advantages, and problems, and the key is proper management of such resources. Keep in mind that all contractor issues aren't "outsourcing" in the way some like to think: it includes all manner of acquisition of capabilities and services, which also necessarily includes labor.

    7. Re:Important information from the article... by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

      Isn't everyone tired of this joke by now?
      The longer you've been around/associated with the military, the funnier it gets... 'cause it's true.
      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    8. Re:Important information from the article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks. For some reason I couldn't access TFA. Seems to be working now though. //GP

    9. Re:Important information from the article... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      ""Military Intelligence" : my all time favourite oxymoron."

      Nah...I prefer either Jumbo Shrimp, or Rap Music.

      :-)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    10. Re:Important information from the article... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Well yeah, if by "Military," you mean, "Congress"

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    11. Re:Important information from the article... by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

      "This top line $60 billion figure is 25% above the estimated $48 billion budget for FY 08. It is quite probable that this total figure was not even known by the government until recently. Greater control and oversight of the Intelligence Community budget was a hallmark of the Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 that created the position of the Director of National Intelligence and gave it the mandate to get an overview of the entire amount spent on intelligence government-wide. To this end, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has recently gathered all parts of the previously fragmented Intelligence Community budget together for the first time as part of its Intelligence Resource Information System (IRIS). In the report from the Select Senate Committee on Intelligence released last Thursday, the committee praised the Office of the Director of Intelligence for creating a "single budget system called the Intelligence Resource Information System." It also recognizes their efforts in helping create what "will be used for further inquiry by the Committee's budget and audit staffs and will be a baseline that allows the Congress and DNI to derive trend data from future reports."

      And the great eye is born. Now we're really screwed.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    12. Re:Important information from the article... by onkelonkel · · Score: 1

      I would think that in these here parts "Microsoft Works" would be the oxymoron of choice.

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    13. Re:Important information from the article... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Considering that some of these contrators are actually public relations companies I consider it a serious worry. The faked French mined uranium ore from Niger to Iraq story is in the press at the moment as an example. Personally I see some of these things as examples of corruption and it is worth seeing how much money goes into various pockets for what purposes. Political advertising is not really what I would see as a valid use for a national defence budget - but I'm not from the USA and may see things differently.

  8. Compared to? by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

    60 billion huh?

    Does anyone know how much that budget was back in 2000?

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

    1. Re:Compared to? by FredDC · · Score: 1

      Got any old powerpoint presentations lying around somewhere?

      --
      09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63
    2. Re:Compared to? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends if you include what they spent planning & executing the attacks on 11/9

    3. Re:Compared to? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "It depends if you include what they spent planning & executing the attacks on 11/9"

      And exactly WHAT happened November 9th?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:Compared to? by treeves · · Score: 1

      2004 - Mozilla Firefox 1.0 released.

      An attack from Microsoft's perspective? Conspiracy theorists, have at it!

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  9. With security this awesome... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With security this awesome we'll soon be reading their classified email courtesy of phf.cgi ...

  10. At least, insescurity works for the little guy by astrashe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I sort of feel like this is telling us stuff we ought to know anyway.

    1. Re:At least, insescurity works for the little guy by ak3ldama · · Score: 1

      I sort of feel like this is telling us stuff we ought to know anyway.
      That is what I thought, especially with an organization(s) that has such awesome potential to become corrupted. Though it is entirely likely they already are ... $60 Billion, are you kidding me?

      --
      "but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
    2. Re:At least, insescurity works for the little guy by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You knew this already, all the money is money already spent and accounted for in the budgets. What you didn't know is what is now considered earmarked for inteligence. A lot of the time, different programs inside different agencies get this distinction and count towards this total but the funding was approved with the budget for the agency.

      So what they are telling you isn't that we are spending hidden or new money. What the number represent is what amount of the money we already are spending, is spent on this.

    3. Re:At least, insescurity works for the little guy by click2005 · · Score: 1

      That is exactly why they need $60 billion. When they have that much money, its nearly impossible to find anyone to bribe.

      --
      I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
    4. Re:At least, insescurity works for the little guy by Lunar_Lamp · · Score: 1

      I'm not from the USA, so obviously don't have my finger on the pulse of your affairs too closely, but I was shocked by how low the figure was, not how high.

  11. Outdated link by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yeah, that's no longer there.

    It's now been posted by the Federation of American Scientists.

    There are, however, a number of other contracting briefs and presentations posted here

    1. Re:Outdated link by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Why would it be posted at a federation of scientist? Since when are scientists political entities vested with showing government secretes?

    2. Re:Outdated link by d474 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It took 110 hours to complete this PowerPoint presentation, according to the stats in properties. That's almost 14 days at 8 hours a day. No wonder their budget is so fucking high. I'd hate to see how long it takes for them to actually DO something.

      --
      Authority questions you. Return the favor.
    3. Re:Outdated link by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Federation of American Scientists was formed during the early atomic era, in the belief that scientists had a social responsibility to participate in the political process. It was apparently founded by scientists who participated in the Manhattan Project.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    4. Re:Outdated link by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I will keep that in mind whenever anything cones from science and has some political connection to it.

    5. Re:Outdated link by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      The alternative answer is that, as you could discover in the museum of creationism, scientists are the bad guys. They promote bad things like 'Reason' and 'Common sense' over 'Dogmas' and 'keeping the truth away from the people'. The Metallica song 'sad but true' comes to mind here.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    6. Re:Outdated link by JonathanR · · Score: 2, Informative

      The reason why the editing time is so high (and probably why so much interesting data embedded) is because people never start from a fresh template copy. They pick up from the last job and hack it to suit the next.

      This happens all the time, and in badly checked documents, you can often find whole paragraphs that are entirely unrelated to the subject. I see it all the time in purchase specifications and requisitions that get created in the industry that I work in.

      A good reason to abandon formatted word-processing documents and return to plain text files.

    7. Re:Outdated link by nametaken · · Score: 1

      My question is, where in the budget do they detail how much they're paying the mope who made this awful, animated mess of a ppt?!

      I mean, Director of National Intelligence? Shouldn't they have guys almost making feature films with rotating, interactive, wireframe maps for their presentations?

      TV is bullshit!

  12. Quote from ID4 by u-bend · · Score: 4, Funny
    --
    u-bend
    1. Re:Quote from ID4 by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't actually think they spend $20,000.00 on a hammer, $30,000.00 on a toilet seat do you?

      Well, yeah, they actually probably do, but only in no-bid contracts awarded to whatever company the Director of the Federal agency requesting the contract worked for previously. ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Quote from ID4 by u-bend · · Score: 4, Informative

      Couple of points on your post:
      1. How right you are about the no-bid, money-wasting thing--it's happening right now in Iraq, where millions have been wasted and in many cases, little reconstruction to show for it (sorry about the Coastal Post link--it was in major news publications a couple of weeks ago, but this is the most relevant recent hit in a Google News "Bechtel Iraq" search).
      2. Isn't it sad that you have to say "probably," because in so many cases, it seems like these huge taxpayer decisions are made without anyone knowing about them?

      --
      u-bend
    3. Re:Quote from ID4 by Krinsath · · Score: 1

      Actually I read something about this myth, and it really boils down to contractor billing laziness. Back "in the day" contractors used to sell things as a unit, and the cost of the unit would be distributed amongst all the components equally, so lets say we're discussing a $100 million jet. If there are say, 2500 components that go into said jet they would bill each component as $40,000...even if one of the components was something as seemingly trivial as the flight stick. Of course, this ignored that it also affected the super-high-end items as well, so those giant jet engines were also $40,000 as was the avionics system and everything else that would typically be millions of dollars.

      Of course, the media gets a hold of the story that they paid $40,000 for a flight stick and report only this, leaving out the rest of the story that actually allows these actions to make some sort of sense. That's not to say that contractors didn't overcharge for things, but it wasn't nearly to the scale that the media reported at the time which has since spiraled into its own myths about government spending. Supposedly as a result of their rather...sensationalist journalism, contractors are no longer allowed to bill in that fashion, which is an arguable good move (more transparency but increased overhead and cost as a result).

      Just remember though, the media has a primary interest in selling advertising space...not in reporting the truth. Been that way for a long time, longer than anyone posting to /. has been alive mostly likely, but people never seem to realize it.

    4. Re:Quote from ID4 by Miseph · · Score: 2

      really, Bechtel wasting money? Who'd have thought that the company that did all the Big Dig work would turn out to be corrupt, wasteful, incompetent and outright fraudulent? I know I'm shocked.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    5. Re:Quote from ID4 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because I'm paranoid, I'm posting this as AC.

      Keep in mind that there are government organizations out there that don't technically exist, yet still need funding.

      I work for s small biotech company that works with the company In-Q-Tel, which basically serves as a mask for various government agencies. Multiple times, I've heard them mention their "customers" that don't actually exist. We even had one great meeting where three of the attendees were presented by names such as Dave, Steve, and Mike. No last names, titles, backgrounds, etc. were given.

      These groups need to get funding somehow, and "clerical errors" or inflated billings seems like a good way to hide the money. Of course that part is just speculation.

    6. Re:Quote from ID4 by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I had heard this as well.

      The cost for the air craft carrier was going to be 1.2 billion with fuzzy accounting or 1.3 billion with accurate accounting. Having occasional $600 screws and $20,000 toilets actually made the entire project cheaper.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    7. Re:Quote from ID4 by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1
      From their front page:

      Our mission is to deliver leading-edge technologies to the CIA and the Intelligence community. It ain't exactly a secret. The About us page mentions the CIA about a dozen times.
    8. Re:Quote from ID4 by dbIII · · Score: 1

      1. How right you are about the no-bid, money-wasting thing--it's happening right now in Iraq, where millions have been wasted

      It's funny that most of the administrators sent to Iraq are less educated, younger and probably even have less experience delegating work than the average Slashdot reader. Young political appointees from anti-intellectual "think tanks" are not the right people for the job so you get expensive results and a lack of accountability. Remember that this is costing lives as well as dollars and there is very little to stop them behaving like young tinpot dictators.

  13. Obligatory by Silver+Sloth · · Score: 2, Funny

    And what's happened to their AMD budget?

    --
    init 11 - for when you need that edge.
  14. Reverse Engineered? by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

    I'd hardly call this reverse engineering. The unclassified document was made so by simply removing the scale from a graph.

    This is even worse than declassifying documents by putting a box on top of text in a PDF. How can people be so stupid?

    1. Re:Reverse Engineered? by Himring · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because government people are still people and they, and you and I -- and everyone -- are stupid.... I try to be careful in my old age anymore with judging, blaming and thinking others are stupider. I've got waaay too many screwups on my record to talk. It is simply a matter of time before you (or me) has our next big stupid moment in finances, love, work, etc. Just because they work for the government doesn't mean they are different or better or worse. Probably one of the best arguments against vast and complex conspiracies is simply that: that people in any conspiracy are just stupid people like me and you.

      To quote Bullet Tooth Tony:

      "Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...."

      --
      "All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
  15. Followup by daveschroeder · · Score: 1

    To follow up on this comment a bit, it's not like these aren't all elements that weren't already being paid for out of some budget. They were. It's just that a lot of the pieces in the past were probably considered part of the "defense" budget as opposed to the "intelligence" budget. It's a semantic distinction when it comes to the dollars, but I'll agree it is interesting for people to know from an organizational perspective, especially since the Intelligence Community budget has traditionally been officially secret.

    The "intelligence budget" is just a matter of definitions.

  16. No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1, Troll

    Heckuva job, Negroponte and McConnell.

    Or, should I say, Bush has shown his contempt for intelligence once again, and will yet again when he doesn't fire anyone for this serious secrecy breach. Of course, Bush will continue to keep more secrets than all previous American governments combined, and illegally invade Americans' privacy all day with wiretaps and the datamining that Orwell described. America serves at the president's pleasure.

    I guess terrorists must have infiltrated the government's Powerpoint training program, because they're always the culprits, and Bush's divine right is never wrong.

    --

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    make install -not war

    1. Re:No One Will Be Fired by daveschroeder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      *Sigh*.

      So, the Director of National Intelligence should be fired because a PowerPoint presentation reveals something that is so broad and vague, given the that fact that the "intelligence" budget is "secret" has been a joke for the last decade?

      The reason the intelligence budget has been secret has been so adversaries can't see how much you're spending on any one agency, which can imply underlying operations or technologies and techniques depending on how granular budget breakdowns were. It's never been that the total number has been "secret"; it's been that many of the constituent elements have been correctly kept secret, which necessarily means that the total amount can't be known exactly.

      What is or isn't "intelligence" is a matter of definition, and as the article notes, it's just a matter of the fact that the DNI is now getting ahold of the fragmented budgets of the thousands of fragmented components and programs in the sixteen Intelligence Community components, many of which are in DOD, that currently fall under the operational guise of "intelligence", including massive chunks of NSA and entire agencies managing assets in space, like NRO.

      Even this number doesn't likely accurately represent the "intelligence" budget, since so many areas are a mix of other disciplines, especially national security.

      (Way to get in an off-topic post that manages to rant about conspiracy theories, Orwell (can we have a Godwin's Law for Orwell references at some point?), religion, and Hurricane Katrina all in one, though. America does not "serve at the president's pleasure" (nice US Attorney firing reference, though! Bravo!), no one thinks terrorism is to blame for everything or even most things (except for the things for which it is to blame, and some choose willful ignorance about the scope and nature of the problem), and Bush himself routinely has said that he has made mistakes and bad decisions, and no one except complete idiots would think anyone of any political stripe is "never wrong". And Katrina. Ugh. Fastest federal response ever to a disaster of that size and scope, and the local and state agencies knew about this for several, several days, and DID have the capability to do a lot more, and didn't. So, what, you want more federal control over states and localities? Maybe a law to allow domestic use of the military in natural disasters? Oh, wait...that is really Bush's secret attempt to declare martial law, right? I can't keep up.)

    2. Re:No One Will Be Fired by CompCons · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bush may do alot of things wrong... but are you really trying to blame him for some low level moron releasing a powerpoint presentation? This is not an offense that requires big heads to roll. This is a problem that requires (possibly) one or two grunts to be fired. Shit happens, you can't stop every mistake. The important thing is how it's handled and frankly, I don't think it SHOULD be a matter of public knowledge how this is handled. Maybe the guy gets a mark on his record, maybe he gets fired, maybe they change the clearing policy. Either way... please drop your Bush is responsible for every little thing that goes wrong. Ultimately yes, the buck stops at his door, but lets be realistic... I'm sure someone is going to get hammered for this... lets make sure it's the person that ACTUALLY screwed up.

    3. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I didn't say the DNI should be fired. I just said that no one will be fired. Your rumsfeldian denial of the extreme opposite is exactly the kind of Republican nonsense that protects everyone doing all these important government activities wrong.

      And all you can do is "sigh".

      The budget is secret. Publishing it is a crime. The total number has indeed been secret, and the conventional estimates have been $15B, 25%, too low. Which means that even in just 2005, the "Intelligence" operations were over 30% larger than previously believed.

      I guess you sigh over the big deal everyone makes about the Bush gang exposing a secret CIA agent, Valerie Plame, who worked to keep Iraq and Iran from going nuclear, to protect Bush/Cheney lies about nukes to send us to war in those countries. You'll probably claim that she wasn't covert, that the Bush gang didn't expose her, that they didn't know, that mistakes were made, that Bush will fire anyone involved in the leak... Spare me your horrendous BS.

      Only denial junkies can appear to think your way though keeping separate massive administration failures like Katrina, exposed intel secrets, and Bush's failed, faithy government. Your massive coincidence theory doesn't fool anyone. You (dwindling) Republican apologists do indeed insist that terrorists are the reason Bush's government does anything wrong. You Bush worshippers don't even need to hear Bush say "I made a mistake" - "mistakes were made" is enough, and no one gets fired.

      You've even got the insanity to defend Bush's Katrina response. You are too sick to try to cure with facts and overwhelming evidence. I'm replying only because it's so easy, and because there are indeed still others who can be fooled by your shoddy lies and denial.

      --

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      make install -not war

    4. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      The fool who published the PPT is responsible, and should be fired. The fools who trained and managed them, after all the damaging Office exposures so public the past several years, should probably be fired, responsible for the performance of the fool. The responsibility for continuing this incompetence does run all the way to the National Intelligence Director, who is responsible for their office, so they should take a hit of some kind. And of course Bush is responsible for managing the DNI - he's "The Decider".

      But no one will get fired. Except maybe in the office that mismanaged the PR spin. For a guide to the standard pattern, just watch Gonzales "take responsibility" for the "mishandling" of his US Attorney purge, by admitting he failed to spin it properly.

      This is not a little thing. I didn't say Bush should be fired for this. But now that you mention "every little thing that goes wrong": so many things, mostly big, have "gone wrong" under Bush that he clearly is responsible. That's what leaders do: take responsibility. But he won't. No one in his crony gang will. No one will be fired, except either a scapegoat or, if there really is public pressure, at best a fall guy.

      Nothing has ever changed, even over bigger "mistakes" like this, even recently. How can you possibly act like this is acceptable performance from such an important organization as the US Executive Branch, while we're at war on multiple fronts, with intelligence at the core of every problem, and needed in every solution?

      --

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      make install -not war

    5. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Pojut · · Score: 1

      You do realize that so baltently holding to one side or the other (ie the left or the right) that you are no better than the very people you hate?

      When the fuck will people realize that we are all on the same team here? Last time I checked, America was ONE country, not two.

      Indivisable, anyone?

      Frankly, I don't care whose "side" you are on. To me, you are the exact thing that is wrong with America. Not because you follow one belief or another, but because you think that YOU and ONLY YOU can possibly be right.

      You know, Hitler thought that same way too.

    6. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      Man, you must be new here.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    7. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      What does "the Left" have to do with this stupid, costly screwup? The entire government was run by a Republican monopoly until this January. The DNI responsible for this was chosen by Bush, and confirmed before Democrats even had procedural control of the process (not to mention their bare majority including two non-Democrats, one of whom is Lieberman, totally Republican on matters like this). Bush is responsible for the government he controls.

      What ideology am I pushing? What's "Left" or "Right" about demanding accountability? In fact, the Right has claimed monopoly on "personal responsiblity" to get power, which it then dispenses irresponsibly and unaccountably.

      And how am I excluding the possibility that I could be wrong, or that someone else could be right? Convince me in debate, and I'll concede, and take up your point with the same vigor as my own. It is you who is saying that only your supposedly "nonpartisan" point can be correct, and that I cannot possibly be right. That's extremely hypocritical, and consistent with the denial in your post that I've already described.

      It is in fact people like you who deny the partisan essence of so many government wrongdoings who perpetuate them. The party system is a plague, and I belong to no party, nor define my self by choosing a side. But denying that I am in the minority, that the government is in fact controlled by partisans, and this event was produced by one party in control, is to ignore that problem.

      BTW, your Hitler analogy is stupid, Godwin or no. Hitler would probably have thought you an idiot - what difference does that make?

      --

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      make install -not war

    8. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Oh yeah, you're a "Libertarian", right?

      Just because you disagreed with Rumsfeld evidently doesn't make you immune to his rhetorical ploys. Then you get all spooked by "colorful language" - just because it paints you accurately as a liar.

      Thank you for sticking to the Republican lies about Plame sending Wilson to Niger, when that's been disproven across the board. And since Wilson brought back the truth that dispelled Cheney and Bush's lies about Iraqi Niger uranium, what difference does it make who sent him, even if though it was completely without conflict?

      You are so sick that all you've got is Rush Limbo's newsletter, and even more rumsfeldian hyperbolic denial of strawman extremes. You're the one thinking binary to deny the one you say I am. The one insisting only one person can be right categorically, to accuse me of that without grounds. The fact is that Bush and his gang lied us into war, keep us there losing badly with stunts like this latest intel exposure, and tens of millions of Americans like you are complicit in spinning his lies for him.

      You're a worthless troll. Goodbye.

      --

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      make install -not war

    9. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      60 Billion/year and they have yet to find any intelligence in the US government

    10. Re:No One Will Be Fired by daveschroeder · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Oh yeah, you're a "Libertarian", right?

      Nope. Sorry.

      I voted about 70-75% for Democratic candidates in the last several local and national elections. Unlike you, I consider individual ideas and policies as appropriate for local, state, and national issues, and don't simply regurgitate the ridiculous party line accusatory bullshit that is all you seem capable of.

      Also, I don't like Rush Limbaugh, and don't listen to him (or any other talk radio). The fact that you see no problem with Plame's husband doing the African factfinding speaks utter volumes.

      Goodbye indeed.

    11. Re:No One Will Be Fired by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Your rumsfeldian denial of the extreme opposite is exactly the kind of Republican nonsense that protects everyone doing all these important government activities wrong.

      And you believe this? The extremes of either or any side generally tends to be wrong too. Denying the extreme opposite is a safe bet in most cases.

      and I don't think this has anything to do with republican verses democrat. I don't remember anyone getting fired over the Chinese getting our missile and nuclear technology during the Clinton years when the las alomos labs learned a lesson on firewalls. But then again, the chinese was supposedly funneling campaign contribution to Clinton so maybe that is an entirely different scenario. Could I conclude your failure to include that and make it a republican only problem as confirmation as you seeing that scenario differently then an inteligence leak? BTW, this is just as much of a technology breakdown as anything else.

      I guess you sigh over the big deal everyone makes about the Bush gang exposing a secret CIA agent, Valerie Plame, who worked to keep Iraq and Iran from going nuclear, to protect Bush/Cheney lies about nukes to send us to war in those countries. You'll probably claim that she wasn't covert, that the Bush gang didn't expose her, that they didn't know, that mistakes were made, that Bush will fire anyone involved in the leak... Spare me your horrendous BS.

      Actually it was a drunken democrat who made the leak at a party while talking to a reporter. This has been known for quite a while now. I don't understand why people are still blaming this on Bush, cheney or anyone other then Richard Armatage. I hope this isn't a situation were someone refuses to accept any reality other then the one they made u0p in their mind.

      Only denial junkies can appear to think your way though keeping separate massive administration failures like Katrina, exposed intel secrets, and Bush's failed, faithy government. Your massive coincidence theory doesn't fool anyone. You (dwindling) Republican apologists do indeed insist that terrorists are the reason Bush's government does anything wrong. You Bush worshippers don't even need to hear Bush say "I made a mistake" - "mistakes were made" is enough, and no one gets fired.

      Oh no. I think it might be one of those blinded by your own hatred things. I am willing to bet your state of mind isn't consistent with the truth or the facts supporting the truth. I will touch on a few things but not go into detail, Latrina was the fault of local and state governments not the feds. The only reason the Feds seemed disorganized is because by the time the state gave them the ability to do something the objective had changed and they needed to rework the infrastructure and operation. As for Intel-secretes, this is hardly anything isolated to this administration. Now seeing how this administration has a pack or haters following him and looking for their demise means that more people will be doing it on purpose if they think it will help take him down. But that hardly seems to be a republican fault.

      Only denial junkies can appear to think your way though keeping separate massive administration failures like Katrina, exposed intel secrets, and Bush's failed, faithy government. Your massive coincidence theory doesn't fool anyone. You (dwindling) Republican apologists do indeed insist that terrorists are the reason Bush's government does anything wrong. You Bush worshippers don't even need to hear Bush say "I made a mistake" - "mistakes were made" is enough, and no one gets fired.

      is denial the only problem? or could it be the spouting of extreme and untrue facts that are causing the denials and the appearance of a problem? I would like you to define a Bush worshipper for me too. Does it mean someone who worships bush or is it anyone who thinks your extreme views are wacked and refuses to support them?

    12. Re:No One Will Be Fired by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      The fact that you see no problem with Plame's husband doing the African factfinding speaks utter volumes.

      Sorry to butt in, but I gotta ask - what does this have to do with Plame's outing? Are there not internal procedures to deal with potential conflicts of interest? Or was the administration's only recourse to out a covert agent?

    13. Re:No One Will Be Fired by daveschroeder · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I didn't say that was right, either. I said it was playing politics. And the two points aren't mutually exclusive.

      And, to answer your question, it has EVERYTHING to do with Plame's outing. A lot of people think it was just a vindictive act to "get back" at Wilson. That was actually incidental (again, NOT saying it was right). The reason she was "outed" was in response to Wilson's editorial, saying, hey, this guy AND his wife have kind of a conflict of interest here. Like, the whole reason Wilson even has this pulpit for criticizing the administration is because he was sent "by his wife"[1] to Africa, and his wife and Wilson have clear political opinions on the administration's general positions on military action against Iraq.

      While there may be internal procedures to deal with things like this, 1.) they obviously didn't work, since Wilson was sent, and 2.) Wilson was given an avenue to speak against administration policies because of his wife's position. "Outing" her (and again, I don't agree with it) was playing politics just as much as she, but especially Wilson, was. Oh, but what she did was "less" bad? I disagree. Using a position that isn't supposed to be political for political posturing from a position of secrecy is worse than a politician playing politics. Neither should have been done, and both were wrong, and arguing which is "worse" is academic.

      [1] He wasn't really sent "by his wife"; but her team within CIA absolutely was involved in making the decision, and should have known better. And she should have almost insisted he not be sent because of this. This is why we have the notion of conflicts of interest and appearances of impropriety: judges recuse themselves from cases even if they don't have an actual conflict, but just an appearance of one. I think that Wilson being sent and then using what was an official, non-political governmental factfinding capacity to turn around and chastise the administration on the editorial pages of the New York Times (hint: that's not the role of someone in that position) was just as bad as floating the whole reason he was doing this factfinding in the first place.

    14. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Lars+T. · · Score: 1
      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    15. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      Heckuva job, Negroponte and McConnell.

      Or, should I say, Bush has shown his contempt for intelligence once again, and will yet again when he doesn't fire anyone for this serious secrecy breach. Instead he will pay some very special company a billion to make sure this never happens again.
      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    16. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is or isn't "intelligence" is a matter of definition,
      As you would know if you had a job in intelligence, the detailed definition of what matters are currently officially considered to be "intelligence" related for budget purposes is a secret. This forum is not an appropriate place to discuss that definition. In principle, the exact annual total "intelligence" expenditure can be calculated by reference to the (secret) definition of "intelligence" matters.

      I'd be more careful how you write because you have contradicted yourself. In "the fact that the 'intelligence' budget is 'secret' has been a joke for the last decade", you imply the secrecy has been ineffective, and in "The reason the intelligence budget has been secret has been so adversaries can't see", you imply the secrecy has been effective. The fact is that the total expenditure has been and is still intentionally secret from the public and from most US senators and congressional representatives too.

      Even this number doesn't likely accurately represent the "intelligence" budget, since so many areas are a mix of other disciplines, especially national security.
      Since the definition of "intelligence" matters is secret, everybody in this forum including you cannot know how accurate the alleged total is. In the absence of that definition being made public, any debate here about the accuracy is misleading.

    17. Re:No One Will Be Fired by CompCons · · Score: 1

      There was another reply to you original post which was more eloquent than mine. Mistakes happen. This WAS a relatively minor mistake. Calling for people's heads every time a mistake is made has only one conclusion. Everyone stops doing anything. If you aren't doing anything you can't make a mistake. Mistakes must be tolerated and learned from. "The punishment should fit the crime". I doubt this was a deliberate act to harm the country. Maybe the guy should be stripped of his top secret clearance becuase MAYBE he's proven he's not capable of handling it, But calling for the directors resignation or firing is absurd. Maybe this was deliberate mis-information. There's renewed tensions between the US and russia... maybe we're warming up the cold war again... maybe we're trying to make the russians...or the chinese increase thier intelligence budgets... Of course thats not really probable...but it is certainly possible. The democrats keep calling the bush administration on procedural matters. You claim that Bush and his "cronies" have made so many mistakes... but when it comes down to it the democrats were all there too... Bad Iraq intelligence? Hmmmm the democrats all had a chance to read that report before they VOTED TO GIVE HIM AUTHORITY. But they didn't...THEY DIDN'T EVEN READ IT...becuase apparently that wasn't important. Who was in charge on the ground during katrina? Democrats... Democratic Mayor...Democratic Govenor... They had plenty of warning and plenty of chance to make a real difference on the ground but they didn't. But thats ok... Mayor Ray Nagan will get his "chocolate city" back soon enough...

    18. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Anonymous Coward doesn't even bother to back up their nonsensical denial that the White House, Senate and House were all controlled by a lockstep Republican majority until January. All it's got is some stupid attempted insult. These are the people who elected Bush twice, and want more.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    19. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Every single time I've had to wade through one of your Bush apologist replies, all that I really have to do to explain how worthless they are is to cite your userID: somedumass.

      But just because some less dumb than you might be distracted by your Limbo echo:

      The leak came from the White House, as was proven in Libby's case, and everyone knows it's Cheney. None of those people are Democrats, but they could be drunk all the time: who could tell the difference?

      Your post says all over it that you explicitly aren't interested in the facts, but instead just want to bet on some kind of gradeschool philosophy that your preconceived notions are correct. While my "views", far from extreme, simply cite some representative examples of the overwhelming evidence of the criminal government Bush is running. Why shouldn't I hate that? I'm neither as dumb nor as crazy-evil as you are.

      You're not my brother, and you don't believe it when you say it. You're a dumbass, full of lies.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    20. Re:No One Will Be Fired by sgt_doom · · Score: 1

      God Bless you, Great Citizen, Doc Ruby, Good Bless you (OK, so I'm an atheist, but one can still hope, after all...). And you saved me so much typing....

    21. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      "They hate our freedoms, so let's round up thousands of random people who might look like some of them, and invade a country that had nothing to do with them, and kill as many of them as we can for as long as we can."

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    22. Re:No One Will Be Fired by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Moderation -2
          50% Troll
          50% Overrated

      TrollMods think I'm a terrorist, because they can debate as well as Bush can fight terrorism.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    23. Re:No One Will Be Fired by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Every single time I've had to wade through one of your Bush apologist replies, all that I really have to do to explain how worthless they are is to cite your userID: somedumass.

      You know, I don't appologize for Bush. I don't have to. All I do is make sure the facts are straight. there seems to be an enormous of blatant lie-ing coming from your side and people like you. Half the time everything you are spouting falls to part when one little detail is reveled to be wrong. I'm sure that when you are seeing this so often that you are calling people apologist now, that maybe there is a trend developing. And in case your wondering were I am going, the trend is that you are WRONG quite a bit of the time. You use your HATE to justify it. Well, you name isn't Alice and this isn't wonderland. Step back and take a good look at it or just get ready.

      The leak came from the White House, as was proven in Libby's case, and everyone knows it's Cheney. None of those people are Democrats, but they could be drunk all the time: who could tell the difference?

      The leak came from Richard Armatage(a registered democrat), the reporter who got the leak and done the story has admitted this much. More over, the special prosecutor and the FBI along with some members of congress knew this before the special prosecutor had an investigation. How is this possible, this is because Armatage told them he might be the person who leaked it.

      The libbey case had nothing to do with the leak. It was about him lieing to the investigators about when and who he spoke to about it. This was all after the leak occurred. Nobody but you haters who want to totally ignore the facts suggest this is proof of anything other then Libby didn't tell the truth when asked. His entire case revolved around not remembering talking to someone before talking to someone else and then he claimed he talked to someone who denies having the conversation. Nothing about the source of the leak, nothing about were it comes from and nothing about anything in it.

      People like you are simply amazing. All you have to do is pick up a damn newspaper and read it and you will have all the information you need. Watch a little news on the TV or even frequent a news site that doesn't filter everything into how you believe and then only tell you slanted interpretations of it. I dare you to present anything with the libby trial that says the leak came from Cheney or the white house. And I don't mean some obscure slanted news report. I mean any statements from the judge or prosecutor, transcripts of the trial or anything. You won't be able to do it because you are flat out lieing on this.

      Your post says all over it that you explicitly aren't interested in the facts, but instead just want to bet on some kind of gradeschool philosophy that your preconceived notions are correct. While my "views", far from extreme, simply cite some representative examples of the overwhelming evidence of the criminal government Bush is running. Why shouldn't I hate that? I'm neither as dumb nor as crazy-evil as you are.

      MY post are always showing you were you get the facts wrong. That is why you hate them. Every time we converse I end up showing you to be full of shit. This is yet another example. I don't have a problem with anyone who doesn't like Bush. I have a problem with people willing to make shit up to perpetuate that line. Your little falacy of a reality is a sham and you need to take a good look at it. Maybe write down what you think is real and then search form some news sites that support it. When this becomes too difficult of a task, you can give up and wonder why. but anyways, it would have done the rest of the world a deal of good because it will have occupied you for a good length of time. And the longer the internet is without made up and out right lieing from you, the better it is.

      You're not my brother, and you don't believe it when you s

    24. Re:No One Will Be Fired by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      ...and don't constantly vilify every single thing that Bush or anyone else who is Republican/conservative simply because they are.

      Dood, you are like a total clown. For shooooor....

      Bush ain't no conservative -- he is pure neofeudalist/regressive at best - although in pure truth, he is actually the imbecilic face for a criminal organization which has taken over this country and is bleeding it dry. Your bullcrapola on NOC Valerie Plame is simpleton talking points through and through - try to come up with something original...something denoting a least minimal thinking skills....there be no excuse whatsoever for excusing the treasonous disclosure of an active CIA agent - and simultaneously blowing the cover of a counter proliferation op (i.e., Brewster Jennings) --- people died because of this. Period. No excuses. No BS. Time you, and your soulmate I. "Scotty" Libby went to the front lines of Iraq and hugged a few IEDs.....

    25. Re:No One Will Be Fired by mjpaci · · Score: 1

      Thank you.

    26. Re:No One Will Be Fired by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      I just don't see the politics in Wilson's position though. He was given a task, carried it out, and then spoke up when he heard that his research was being misrepresented. No one denies that he was qualified.

      While the perception of impropriety should be avoided, just because the perception was there doesn't mean the impropriety was. This really just strikes me as "Hey - know anyone who would be good at X?", "Yes, my husband is qualified, and is in a position to carry that out".

      Obviously without a recorded history, this is all speculation, but I simply don't see any evidence of actual wrongdoing on Wilson's/Plame's part.

      But I think my main reason for siding on the Plame/Wilson side is that Wilson was speaking out to spread the truth, while the administration was trying to discredit the man trying to spread the truth. That just rubs me the wrong way.

  17. Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trying to be optimistic here .... I hope they are spending the money well. That kind of cash could solve a lot of school budget problems where I come from.

  18. Here's something to consider... by tkrotchko · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The only people this was a secret from was the American people.

    Every government on earth (and the "bad guys" as well), knew the size of the budget. Or did someone think Putin was going to look at this powerpoint, smack his forehead with his hand and say "ah ha! now I know!"?

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    1. Re:Here's something to consider... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like that. The USA Govt is too incompetent to keep secrets. NASA can't even keep backups, let alone secrets. It's pathetic. Say what you want about Stalin-era Soviet Union, but their secrets were kept tight. Even if Bush wanted a totalitarian regime over the US population, nobody would be at all afraid since the secret police wouldn't even be secret. You'd just see Word documents whizzing about via exploited Exchange servers saying "illK mithS ohnJ".

    2. Re:Here's something to consider... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, do you think Putin would start fuming over the waste of money?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Here's something to consider... by daveschroeder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No. The US government's budget, as a whole, was never a secret. People have been deducing and estimating, rather accurately, the entirety of the "intelligence budget" for decades.

      What was secret was the budget for individual pieces of the intelligence community, which can imply underlying specific operations, programs, and technologies on which a nation may be spending money. And that should be secret. This, however, necessarily means that the total exact amount spent on intelligence programs is also secret. So we have a situation where we don't know something like:

      1 + 4 + 2 + 4 + 6 + 9 + 1 + 3 + 7 = 37

      but do know:

      A + B + C + D + E + X + ??? = 37 (approximately)

      This has always been the case, will continue to be the case, as it should be, and is still the case even though this broad and vague number of how much is spent on "contractors", coupled with a percentage of total spent on contractors, is known.

      And even this number isn't likely accurate, because what is or isn't "intelligence" is a matter of definitions and organization. All of these items are being paid for regardless. This is like saying what the "defense" budget is. Sure, we can throw out a huge number under the umbrella of DOD. But some of that money is also part of the "intelligence" budget. In fact, a huge chunk is. So which is it? Defense? Intelligence? Both?

      And yes, a lot of this information about granular budgets of individual agencies and programs has been successfully kept from adversaries. It's not like we want to keep a total of ALL intelligence spending secret; the Soviet Union didn't even really care about that when it existed, and could deduce it accurately enough if it cared. What it WOULD care about is things like NRO's budget, or the budgets of the cryptanalysis components of the services, or NGA's budget, or line items in those budgets, etc. THAT is why the "intelligence budget" has properly been "secret".

      It's not like it's a mystery how much we're paying in taxes.

    4. Re:Here's something to consider... by Ernesto+Alvarez · · Score: 1

      Say what you want about Stalin-era Soviet Union, but their secrets were kept tight.

      Well, not THAT tight.
  19. Name that quote by Snowgen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "...a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time."

    1. Re:Name that quote by pla · · Score: 5, Funny

      Name that quote

      Ooh, ooh, I know!

      Part of the "decorative pattern" on Bush's private toilet-paper.

      I think the silly, meaningless sentence you quoted comes from the first roll, ninth sheet. ;-)

    2. Re:Name that quote by Bearpaw · · Score: 5, Funny
      The Communist Manifesto? Mao's Little Red Book?

      Surely no government of a free and democratic country would be based on such a radical ideal. Give people information like that and next thing you know they'll want some voice in how that money gets spent, and that way lies anarchy.

    3. Re:Name that quote by asninn · · Score: 1

      Well, "never" matches "from time to time", just like wanting to make copyright last "forever less one day" by perpetually expanding it whenever some works' protection threatens to expire matches "securing for limited Times".

      Yeah, it's perverted, but you can be sure that there are people who'll seriously argue this way - at least after they stopped screaming "zOMGterrorists!!111".

      --
      butter the donkey
  20. That's it?!? by hanshotfirst · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Only $60B ???!!!

    Personally, I'd rather see us spend $120B on intelligence and get it RIGHT than only spend $60B and get it WRONG and end up going to war based on that faulty intelligence at a price tag of $82B up-front and more annually!

    Politics and loss of life aside, it's just better economics!

    --
    Why, oh why, didn't I take the Blue Pill?
    1. Re:That's it?!? by spellraiser · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Personally, I'd rather see us spend $120B on intelligence and get it RIGHT than only spend $60B and get it WRONG and end up going to war based on that faulty intelligence at a price tag of $82B up-front and more annually!

      It's been said before, but I guess I need to say it again: There was absolutely nothing wrong with the intelligence. The Bush administration just didn't care whether Iraq had WDMs or not (nor whether they had any links with Al-Qaida, etc.); they decided to invade, and so they did. All the 'intelligence' they submitted to justify their decision beforehand was stuff that the intelligence agencies had rejected as false or inaccurate again and again. That they say that the intelligence was bad afterwards is only adding insult to injury.

      --
      I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
    2. Re:That's it?!? by ErikZ · · Score: 1


      Throwing more money at the Government makes it bigger, not better.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    3. Re:That's it?!? by turing_m · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

      -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

      Of course, a Powerpoint presentation on WMD rarely goes astray.

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    4. Re:That's it?!? by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Dude you went to war on information that your intel guys NEW was bogus.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    5. Re:That's it?!? by Sciros · · Score: 2, Funny

      Maybe some did, but most probably had KNOW idea what was going on to begin with.

      --
      I like basketball!!1!
    6. Re:That's it?!? by toddhisattva · · Score: 1

      going to war based on that faulty intelligence Regime change in Iraq was a foregone conclusion.

      In other words, even if the intel had been more up-to-date, Saddam was a goner.

      And *anything* the United States government said or did was going to be called into question by the Saddamites.

      Which means that even if the intel had been more up-to-date, we would be exactly where we are today: Saddam gone and his allies griping about it.
    7. Re:That's it?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intelligence isn't why we couldn't tell Saddam from Osama, it's deliberate.

    8. Re:That's it?!? by Britz · · Score: 1

      Most likely you would have gotten better results if you would have spent less, alas have better acountability. If you would have spent $120B my guess is that you would have another war like Iraq at the same time, because all that money needs to be spent. And if not on spying on a new enemy on what else? And that new enemy has to be fought as well. After all you have to justify that huge budget.

    9. Re:That's it?!? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      I'd rather see us spend $120B on intelligence and get it RIGHT than only spend $60B and get it WRONG

            In reality however, you'd spend $120B and STILL get it wrong... if the whole thing is messed up, throwing more money at it won't suddenly make it work.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    10. Re:That's it?!? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Lol.. No the intel guy didn't know was bogus. They thought it was real less then a decade before and you can see this by various speeches for the leaders in power at the time.

      It wasn't until Bush attempted to use them as justification were they faulty or known to be wrong. And this has as much to do with politics as it does on the what we went to war on.

    11. Re:That's it?!? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Anyone see a patern here? Spedning more money on inteligence isn't as important as having accountability for the money spent. I wish this could be applied to everything else in government. Maybe then we wouldn't have school systems that are producing illiterate graduates and people screaming to throw more good money after bad. We wouldn't have medicare getting all fucked up ad we wouldn't have a lot of things that are wrong with the government and ideologies that are present today.

    12. Re:That's it?!? by dcam · · Score: 1

      Spending more money doesn't necessarily mean better intelligence.

      --
      meh
  21. Misinformation by Aaron+England · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whenever the government gives us information, we assume deception. Whenever we "discover" information, we assume truth. Perhaps I'm the only individual who realizes this, and no one would ever betray the public's trust by purposefully planting misinformation which would lead the public to believe they have uncovered truth. Or perhaps not.

    1. Re:Misinformation by magores · · Score: 1

      Plausible theory, scarily enough.

    2. Re:Misinformation by delt0r · · Score: 1

      Sun Tze talks about it. Its been documented in the past, and would be considered a pretty starndard "intel" method. Its in countless books (The Patrician in the Discworld series for example needed weaker encryption so that others could "crack" his messages from the clacks.... ). However I really doubt it in this case. Simply because I really don't think the information is all that informative or usefull.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    3. Re:Misinformation by Bo'Bob'O · · Score: 1

      Yes, but they don't know that we know that they know what we already don't know so we know it has to be what we already know.

    4. Re:Misinformation by asninn · · Score: 1

      Good point... but how can you prove to us that you're not secretly an agent of the government engaging in damage control now by making us distrust the leaked numbers even though the leak's genuine and even though they ARE real? ;)

      --
      butter the donkey
  22. Megatrends: Cold War Era - 21st Century by Proudrooster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    On Slide #6, "Megatrends" and how that the "old hotness" for "non-core functions" was "in-house" but now that we are in the 21st century, the new hotness is "OUTSOURCED"! I wonder if they outsourced the making of this presentation :) Also, if you note the "Work Environemnt" row, you will see the transition from "Dedicated" to "Virtual, Telecommuting" which means more DIA laptops will be floating around, getting ripped off, and exposing the DIA to even more leaks. With this DIA strategy and demonstrated incomptence, China's expanded cyberweapons programs will have the information in hand before the President/Congress get to hear it in their briefings. Security is an illusion.

  23. Great Budget by tehwebguy · · Score: 3, Funny

    I guess there weren't any basic tutorials on computer security in that budget

    --
    -- lol pwned
    1. Re:Great Budget by Ernesto+Alvarez · · Score: 1

      I guess there weren't any basic tutorials on computer security in that budget

      Actually, there are a lot of them. The third counting upwards from the last one is definitely relevant, if adapted from word to powerpoint.
  24. How can people be so stupid? by nbritton · · Score: 1

    "This is even worse than declassifying documents by putting a box on top of text in a PDF. How can people be so stupid?"

    Umm... That's classified.

  25. Ho Hum by fm6 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Back in the 60s there was a popular story (probably an urban legend, but still a good story) about a realtor in McLean, VA, who needed to do a report on how many people worked in the area. That would include CIA headquarters. The CIA refused to release any figures — it's a national secret! So the guy called up the Soviet embassy, which was happy to provide the data he needed.

    Secrecy, often as not, is less about keeping the bad guys in the dark than about avoiding public scrutiny.

    1. Re:Ho Hum by daveschroeder · · Score: 1
      Back in the 60s there was a popular story (probably an urban legend, but still a good story) about a realtor in McLean, VA, who needed to do a report on how many people worked in the area. That would include CIA headquarters. The CIA refused to release any figures -- it's a national secret! So the guy called up the Soviet embassy, which was happy to provide the data he needed.

      You're right. That is an urban legend. Designed to be funny, and designed to make a point that isn't really accurate, or at best is massively oversimplified.

      Secrecy, often as not, is less about keeping the bad guys in the dark than about avoiding public scrutiny.

      ...says a cynic. Secrecy in free societies with freely elected governments is almost always about keeping the bad guys in the dark.[1] The fact that "public scrutiny" (which is supposed to happen by proxy with Congressional oversight, by the way) is simultaneously hindered is incidental.

      [1] No, really. I know there are a lot of people out there who think a lot of what the defense or intelligence community does is corrupt, underhanded, evil, designed to subvert freedom (of our own people), line pockets of the rich, etc., but believe it or not, nearly all of what the US defense and intelligence infrastructure does day-in, day-out is focused on protecting the people of the United States. There might be disagreement on how and when to best do that, but that's a public policy and political issue, not one of defense or intelligence.

    2. Re:Ho Hum by DeepHurtn! · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ...nearly all of what the US defense and intelligence infrastructure does day-in, day-out is focused on protecting the people of the United States

      ...says somebody exposed to a lifetime of US militaristic and jingoistic propaganda? I wonder how anyone can *assume* the good-nature of the army. Didn't the Kent State Massacre wake people up to attitudes like that?

    3. Re:Ho Hum by daveschroeder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So the best example you can come up with is an isolated event almost four decades ago where state national guardsmen acting (inappropriately, some might say) in a police capacity killed four people, and that's an indictment of all and all operations of the entire defense and intelligence infrastructure for all time?

      And yes, I realize we can all come up with more examples of fraud, abuse, illegal or questionable activities, etc. and so on, but it has nothing to do with militarism or jingoism, sorry to say. The statement that "nearly all of what the US defense and intelligence infrastructure does day-in, day-out is focused on protecting the people of the United States" is an accurate one, even including all the negatives.

      If all you can see is the bad acts (or in some cases not "bad", but just those you personally disagree with) of any entity, and can't separate individual mistakes or bad acts from the larger roles, you're in a far deeper slumber than the ones you'd accuse others of not waking from.

    4. Re:Ho Hum by dlapine · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Perhaps that's the way it was a decade ago.
      When I worked for the USAF during the cold war, spying on americans was illegal. Evidently, those in charge now believe that spying on Americans is acceptable now.

      Currently, the US intelligence infrastructure seems to have new missions.

      It gathers intelligence from and about the American people.
      It makes justifications for actions of the current administration.
      I thinking that we should a lot more information about the amount of our taxes that are being used for these purposes, don't you?

      --
      The Internet has no garbage collection
    5. Re:Ho Hum by fm6 · · Score: 1

      As they say in Wikitruthland, "attribution needed." On what do you base your insight into the motives of the secrecy labelers? The fact that we're a "free and open" society? That increases the need to keep stuff secret, because public scrutiny increases the chance that you'll be seen doing something you'd rather not be seen doing.

      And I'm not arguing this because of any preconceived notions about the character of people who work in defense or intelligence. Any large bureaucratic organization fosters a CYA attitude.

      Also, need I remind you that the top echelon of the defense/intelligences agencies consists not of stalwart soldiers or intrepid spies, but of plain old-fashioned politicians — a profession for which manipulating smoke and mirrors comes as naturally as breathing.

    6. Re:Ho Hum by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      but believe it or not, nearly all of what the US defense and intelligence infrastructure does day-in, day-out is focused on protecting the people of the United States.

      When Microsoft says that they are totally focussed on security, they mean *financial* security for MS and its shareholders.

      When the government says they are focussed on protecting the people, they mean the people who provide financial security to election campaigns.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    7. Re:Ho Hum by asninn · · Score: 1

      Rule #1 from Politics 101... the sheeple will not be educated. :/

      --
      butter the donkey
  26. Google Link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  27. C'mon, you should know better than that by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    If you only watched politics for a few years, you know that it's better to spend 60b bucks to get it wrong than to spend 120b bucks to get it wrong. Getting it right is almost never an option, no matter how much money you pour into it.

    Not trying to bash our government officials, but you rarely if ever get the "good" people to work there. A lot of people working there do it for a comfortable job with almost infallable job security. There's also rarely any kind of reward for putting more effort into a fed job than necessary to work to spec. Actually, self initiative is rarely encouraged and can even lead to severe problems, since you may intrude into someone elses field.

    So why bother doing more than you're told to do?

    Whether you spend more money on that doesn't matter to quality. Quality doesn't increase if bureaucracy, infighting and jealous watchfulness (that people don't overstep their boundaries and hunt in "my" turf) keep it in check. No matter how much money you pump into it.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:C'mon, you should know better than that by hanshotfirst · · Score: 1

      you know that it's better to spend 60b bucks to get it wrong than to spend 120b bucks to get it wrong.
      No argument there. Unfortunately there is no way to calculate the amount of spending required to get it "right", so the 120B could be as "the same", "better", or "worse" than 60B. So, while I wish there was a magic spending number that brought perfect knowledge, there isn't. We're left with gathering a reasonable amount of data, analyzing as best as humanly possible (considering the "good enough" work ethic and policy constraints).
      --
      Why, oh why, didn't I take the Blue Pill?
    2. Re:C'mon, you should know better than that by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You can't buy my knowledge. You can't buy me to do what is against anything I believe in. You can't pay enough to make me develop a DRM scheme that works.

      Ok, that's like refusing money to develop a perpetuum mobile, but I guess you get the idea.

      The problem is that it seems there are only two kinds of "clued" people. Those that refuse to do unethic work and thus don't work for the feds, and those that are criminals anyway and don't do it for obvious reasons. If either group does actually work for the government, they will do anything but make it "right", either out of moral issues or out of the idea that it's easier to break something you implemented with built in flaws.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  28. RTFA ! by alexhs · · Score: 4, Informative

    70 % of the budget from FY95 to FY06 (up to August 31), in tens of millions of dollars,
    third column for 100% :

    95 1850 2643
    96 1950 2786
    97 1800 2571
    98 1775 2536
    99 2150 3071
    00 1754 2506
    01 2170 3100
    02 3140 4486
    03 4203 6004
    04 4049 5784
    05 4200 6000
    06 3964 5663

    So, from 1995 to 2005, an increase of 227%, correspondig to an annual increase of 8,5%.
    And, from 2000 to 2005, an increase of 239%, corresponding to an annual increase of 19,1%.

    --
    I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    1. Re:RTFA ! by Scrameustache · · Score: 4, Interesting

      70 % of the budget from FY95 to FY06 (up to August 31), in tens of millions of dollars,
      third column for 100% : So, between 25 to 30 before 9-11, and then between 55 and 60 after.

      Basically, their budget doubled as a result.
      Thanks for RTFA and giving me the bit I wanted :)
      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    2. Re:RTFA ! by daveschroeder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The talk of massive "increases" is a bit deceptive. The reason there appears to be more "intelligence" spending is that a lot more things are considered "intelligence" activities now.

      TFA speaks to this exact point. The biggest increase didn't happen between "1995 and 2005" or "2000 and 2005", but between 2001-2003, when the largest government restructuring in nearly sixty years - since the creation of DOD and CIA with the National Security Act of 1947 - added a whole slew of capabilities and entities to the "intelligence" infrastructure of the United States, with the addition of DHS to the IC and the creation of the position and office of DNI.

      It's all about organizational structure and what elements are considered intelligence. For example, a lot of elements now considered part of the "intelligence" budget are also part of the "defense" budget. And then you put the "intelligence" and "defense" budgets next to each other and they look really large, don't they? Except they're not additive. Nearly all of the "increase" comes from now including many defense activities and domestic security components under the guise of "intelligence".

      Sure, we've increased intelligence spending. But intelligence spending still only around 2.5% of the total US budget. Defense spending is less than 20% (not anywhere near the "over half" some people like to say). We've also increased the number and types of programs that fall under the high-level, broad "intelligence" umbrella.

      As an aside, for people concerned about outsourcing and contractors, the IC is considering that issue as well, but the fact is that the IC couldn't function without the array of products, services, and capabilities it obtains via specialty contractors.

  29. The solution is clear by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ladies and gentlemen, for the good of our nation, for our security..we must outlaws Powerpoint. Then, only criminals will use it in order to bore each other to tears. Two birds with one stone!

    --
    I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
    1. Re:The solution is clear by jZnat · · Score: 1

      But what about other presentation software like Lotus, OpenOffice, KOffice, SunOffice, Keynote, etc.? We must ban all presentation software in order to prevent leaks like this from ever happening!

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    2. Re:The solution is clear by AdamThor · · Score: 1

      we must outlaws Powerpoint

      as in "Iz in yer wh1th0us3, outlawsing yer fr33d0ms!"

      ?

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
  30. 9 women cannot make a baby in 1 month by Gary+W.+Longsine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Your argument assumes that the widely publicised "intelligence failures" in the United States can be solved by supplying additional funds. Since some of the most important "failures", those with the greatest consequences, were actually the result of policy failures (or perhaps worse, manipulation of the evidence at a policy level), and were not failures in data collection or analysis, I suspect that doubling the funds might actually be dangerous. Perhaps we could spend half as much money, and the consequences of "failure" would be reduced. Impossible to build a solid case for this argument without at least some amount of detailed data about how the money is spent of course, but worth pondering.

    --
    If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
    1. Re:9 women cannot make a baby in 1 month by wes33 · · Score: 1

      9 women cannot make a baby in 1 month
      of course they can ... on average.
      It just takes a while to ramp up production :)
  31. Mattered how? by nagora · · Score: 2, Funny
    In a holdover from the Cold War when the number really did matter to national security,

    The number never mattered except to hide it from the electorate. An itemised list of what it was spent on, now, that would have been an issue of national security.

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    1. Re:Mattered how? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      One of the prevailing theories of how the Cold War was fought by the US was that Reagan forced the USSR into a spending race, and caused the USSR to bankrupt themselves.

      By that theory, yes, keeping the amount secret would, in fact, be a good thing to do.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    2. Re:Mattered how? by nagora · · Score: 1
      One of the prevailing theories of how the Cold War was fought by the US was that Reagan forced the USSR into a spending race, and caused the USSR to bankrupt themselves.

      Yeah, that's believable. Regan was an incompetant old duffer who happened to be sitting under the tree when the apple fell. It's true that part of the reason it collapsed was the decades of wasting time and money worrying about threats from America, but really the Soviet Union collapsed because it was shite and utterly inefficient. Regan got lucky and claimed the credit.

      TWW

      --
      "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    3. Re:Mattered how? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      This is, of course, the other prevailing theory.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    4. Re:Mattered how? by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      but really the Soviet Union collapsed because it was shite and utterly inefficient

      Yes, that is the basic principle behind forcing them into a spending race they can't win.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  32. It's a deliberate leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Note all the photos of the Whitehouse draped in snow - it's to subliminaly make us think Global Warming is a myth by showing us snow when we're all fired up thinking we're reading secret stuff. Sneaky guys those polticians.

  33. running the numbers by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only people this was a secret from was the American people.

    It's important to remember that $60BN doesn't spend itself, and it doesn't spend itself in small numbers. A whole lot of Americans knew that a whole lot of money was being spent on (essentially) nothing. It's also important to remember that this money mostly goes to defense contractors, and most of that goes to the upper management. Make no mistake: the rich don't spend in proportion to their income. They hoard. This money is being turned into silver spoons for a whole lot of terrorism-profiteers.

    Fun trivia: $60BN is enough to give *every* child and adult in the US $200; about half a week's wages for people working minimum wage (before the roughly 1/3rd that goes to taxes, of course.)

    It's enough to employ (are you sitting down?) one point two MILLION people in $50k/year jobs.

    Now sit there and explain to me why New Orleans is still a disaster area, why 10 million kids in the US don't get enough food to eat, ~1% of the population (3.5 million people) is homeless (third of those are children), and why poor residents living in New England have their federal assistance for home heating cut.

    This nation's spending priorities are so out of whack it is abhorrent.

    1. Re:running the numbers by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fun trivia: $60BN is enough to give *every* child and adult in the US $200; about half a week's wages for people working minimum wage (before the roughly 1/3rd that goes to taxes, of course.) ... Now sit there and explain to me why New Orleans is still a disaster area, why 10 million kids in the US don't get enough food to eat ...

      Because, sir, if you give a man $200, you feed him for half a week. If you keep up the hegemony status of that man's nation, and use a successful war to spur on the economy (as successful wars always do), you feed him for a lifetime. Remember that although there may be poverty in America, there is nothing resembling an actual humanitarian crisis due to an outright failure of the economy to sell food where it's needed - and there will never be one, so long as America remains the superpower.

      As a Louisiana resident, I know the Katrina disaster response was woefully inadequate and an embarrassment to our nation. But that isn't to say that the federal government should have any role in the long-term rebuilding of the city. The worst thing New Orleans, or in fact anywhere, could have is handouts. All they do is provide a source of capital that nobody can compete with, and therefore nobody bothers to work towards restoring an economy.

    2. Re:running the numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember that although there may be poverty in America, there is nothing resembling an actual humanitarian crisis due to an outright failure of the economy to sell food where it's needed - and there will never be one, so long as America remains the superpower.
      This condition is neither sufficient nor necessary. The USSR was a superpower for a long time and had many such humanitarian crises. Being a superpower doesn't protect you in any way from internal mismanagement. You might only be claiming that the US will never succumb to such mismanagement as long as it's a superpower, but I'd need more proof than that before I believe it.
    3. Re:running the numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something you are forgetting is that this money came FROM these people in the first place.

      On average, every man, woman and child is paying $200 to these guys.

    4. Re:running the numbers by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because, sir, if you give a man $200, you feed him for half a week.

      WTF are you eating? I spend $80 a week at the grocery store, and split that with my SO. That's including meat every night, and 2 or 3 6 packs of nice beer. You really need to re-examine your eating habits.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:running the numbers by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

      The worst thing New Orleans, or in fact anywhere, could have is handouts. All they do is provide a source of capital that nobody can compete with, and therefore nobody bothers to work towards restoring an economy.

      In case anybody wants to see evidence to support this claim, look at pretty much any country the World Bank/IMF has dealt with. Or, for example, Jamaica, where farmers can't make a living because overflow produce from the US is sent there at prices even Jamaican farmers can't beat.

      - RG>
      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    6. Re:running the numbers by bagsc · · Score: 1

      It seems you've never dealt with HR issues. An employee who takes $50,000 from you in salary usually costs about $100,000 per year because of payroll taxes, insurance, and administrative costs. Based on unclassified figures of similar government agencies, I would expect that payroll is about 30% of the cost, which would mean 180,000 people get jobs throughout the dozens, if not hundreds, of organizations. Most of those are probably double counted in the military.

      It seems you've never dealt with government contractors, because the problem with paying them to do something isn't that they make excessive profits, it's that they don't care about controlling costs. Waste is waste, but laziness and incompetence is far more common than evil.

      It seems you've never dealt with other people's money, because rich people "hoard" by investing in things like start-ups and government debt from overspending. Don't get me wrong, after you've got a million in the bank, I don't think you need to cry about paying more than your share of taxes.

      While probably a quarter of America agrees with you that there are better ways to spend that $60 billion, probably half of America thinks there's no better thing for the government to do than spend on intelligence to make the country safer. You need to accept the fact that if you want the right to complain, you need to take the responsibility of respecting the democratic mechanisms. If you abhor this system for its inefficiency, there are always positions open in the government for well qualified individuals with a passion for doing the right thing.

      --
      http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
    7. Re:running the numbers by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Fun trivia: $60BN is enough to give *every* child and adult in the US $200; about half a week's wages for people working minimum wage (before the roughly 1/3rd that goes to taxes, of course.)

      Fun trivia: People working minimum wage typically have a negative tax burden. Besides, name one recurring cost below $200/yr. $4/wk. It's pocket change, even for people working minimum wage.

      It's enough to employ (are you sitting down?) one point two MILLION people in $50k/year jobs.

      Actually, it's enough to employ about half that when you factor in overhead. Employees cost more than the sum of their salary to employ. Roughly twice as much, as it turns out. So 600k people. But raw numbers are sort of meaningless.. that's .002% of the population. And then you've got to factor in all the expensive spy equipment, secure facilities, background investigations (yeah, it turns out you need a clearance to work in intelligence), training, R&D, etc, and the budget really isn't that unexpected.

      Here's a more telling figure. (Are you sitting down?) $60bn was 0.004% (or 1 / 22,033th for you fraction lovers) of the GDP in 2006. Staggering, I know.

    8. Re:running the numbers by goobenet · · Score: 1

      Because, sir, if you give a man $200, you feed him for half a week. If you keep up the hegemony status of that man's nation, and use a successful war to spur on the economy (as successful wars always do), you feed him for a lifetime. This also takes into consideration that we would use the WHOLE $60BN to do so, leaving national intel with nothing.

      This would also require this war to be successful. Right now we're about breaking even... and with the upcoming influx of troops, i would have to say we're starting to lose. (day late, dollar short... pardon the pun) This does NOT help the economy. $60BN on intel? Seems like it really should be more... look at what type of "spy" satellites have become declassified in the past 10 years... They have cameras that can tell you your balding from 40 miles up! You mean to tell me those were cheap? I don't think so.
    9. Re:running the numbers by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      Because, sir, if you give a man $200, you feed him for half a week.

      WTF are you eating? I spend $80 a week at the grocery store


      Yeah, I didn't phrase that too well. $200 is half a week's cost of living (food, housing, etc.), according to the person that I replied to, but I was trying to adapt the "Give a man a fish..." proverb, which only refers to food.

    10. Re:running the numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actualy it is employing people, someone has got to build the bombs and guns. Im sure alot more of it is lining some fat cat pockets tho.

    11. Re:running the numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just some facts from the US Census about the poor in america:

      * 38 percent of the persons whom the Census Bureau identifies as "poor" own their own homes with a median value of $39,200.

      * 62 percent of "poor" households own a car; 14 percent own two or more cars.

      * Nearly half of all "poor" households have air-conditioning; 31 percent have microwave ovens.

      * Nationwide, some 22,000 "poor" households have heated swimming pools or Jacuzzis.

      "Poor" Americans today are better housed, better fed, and own more property than did the average U.S. citizen throughout much of the 20th Century. In 1988, the per capita expenditures of the lowest income fifth of the U.S. population exceeded the per capita expenditures of the median American household in 1955, after adjusting for inflation.

      Better Off Than Europeans, Japanese
      The average "poor" American lives in a larger house or apartment than does the average West European (This is the average West European, not poor West Europeans). Poor Americans eat far more meat, are more likely to own cars and dishwashers, and are more likely to have basic modern amenities such as indoor toilets than is the general West European population.

      http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/BG791.cfm

    12. Re:running the numbers by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

      "This nation's spending priorities are so out of whack it is abhorrent."

      You're right. We shouldnt be spending anything on this at all.

      "explain to me why New Orleans is still a disaster area, why 10 million kids in the US don't get enough food to eat, ~1% of the population (3.5 million people) is homeless (third of those are children), and why poor residents living in New England have their federal assistance for home heating cut."

      Because being broke and being poor are not one in the same. Being broke is a financial situation. Being pool is a mental status.

      In this country every able bodied indvidual can make a living, and even those who are not able bodied.

      --
      Libertas in infinitum
  34. undo history by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    This is just as good as releasing redacted data in the undo history of an MS-Office file. I would laugh if it weren't my government doing this.

    1. Re:undo history by jallen02 · · Score: 1

      It is actually worse. Undo data is at least hidden and not a more expected feature of Office. Graph data is not even something that "Remove Hidden Data" would get rid of.

  35. Billions here, billions there... by dmccarty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    News organizations constantly report million and billion dollar budgets without providing context. On the radio and on TV, for example, the announcer usually takes exceptional care to pause, then spit out the word as if it's a death-defying number: billion.

    No one even *knows* what a billion is. Can you conceptualize one billion things? I don't know what a billion is. I can't even fathom it. Anyone who tells you they can is lying. All we know is that a billion is more than a million and less than a trillion.

    So, for context, that $60,000,000,000 dollars that was mentioned was for the USA 2005 budget, which was about $2,400,000,000,000.* That's only 2.5% of the budget, and if you're a citizen of the US you'd better hope and pray that your country is spending at least 2% of the budget on intelligence in these times.

    * See, you had to think about it for a second to figure out how big that number is. (In newsspeak, that's $2.4 TRILLLLLIIIIONNNN)

    --
    Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
    1. Re:Billions here, billions there... by JackSpratts · · Score: 1

      Can you conceptualize one billion things? I don't know what a billion is. I can't even fathom it. Anyone who tells you they can is lying.

      well, i can help shed a little light on this...without lying if you don't mind:

      counting continuously to a million - one second at a time - will take you about 11 days.

      counting to a billion will take you about 32 years.

      pretty clear difference that.

      - js.

    2. Re:Billions here, billions there... by mbourgon · · Score: 1

      to paraphrase Dennis Miller: "to put it in perspective... if there were one guy, he would have to pay one BILLLLLLION dollars."

      --
      "Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
    3. Re:Billions here, billions there... by AVee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's only 2.5% of the budget, and if you're a citizen of the US you'd better hope and pray that your country is spending at least 2% of the budget on intelligence in these times.

      Why exactly if i may ask? To be assured of oil? To be assured your next president is an moron as well? To be sure this $DEFENSE_CORP gets it's bonus? To be sure the US will have a enemy available when it needs one?

      I think it's a lot of money to put into organisation of which the effect is disputable and limited. I bet you'd save far more lifes spending that money on trafic safety, health care and old fashioned crime prevention. Or perhaps use it to actually achieve at least a little bit of those 'millenium goals'. That might just stop some terrorists along the line as well.

    4. Re:Billions here, billions there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      No one even *knows* what a billion is. Can you conceptualize one billion things?

      Oh, please. I'm sure there are tons of people who can easily conceptualize a billion.

      (1) Any DRAM designer wouldn't have much of a problem conceptualizing a billion things - a 1Gb DRAM chip isn't unreasonable at all; I believe Samsung actually ships one today.

      (2) Again using Samsung as an example, their operations teams wouldn't have any trouble conceptualizing a billion, as they are 29% market share in the $25B DRAM industry.

      $10B of that industry goes into PCs (desktop + notebook); thus the largest accounts (HP, Dell, etc.) probably drive $1B a year in memory sales. (3) Think the sales VP responsible for those accounts at any large DRAM maker can't concieve of a billion?

      (4) The US Treasury minted 8 billion pennies last year. But of course, no one at the treasurey could ever concieve of billions.

      I could go on, but it's not worth the effort.

    5. Re:Billions here, billions there... by zx75 · · Score: 1

      Of course I can conceptualize what a billion is, but the way to do it isn't to think of a billion distinct objects and try to count them in your mind. You have to group them and relate them to things that you can conceptualize easily.

      For example: $60 billion can build 400,000 4 person homes where I live (where the average price is about $150,000). That means $60 billion could provide shelter for close to 1.6 million people.

      And in the case of my city of 670,000 people, that means with that much money you could rebuild homes for the entire population 2.39 times over.

      I have a firm concept of how large my city is, what kind of area it covers and can thus grasp the scale of how much money $60 billion actually is.

      That is a hell of a lot of money.

      --
      This is not a sig.
    6. Re:Billions here, billions there... by MostAwesomeDude · · Score: 1

      Well, I am posting this from a Core 2 Duo 2.0 GHz, with 1 GB of RAM and 120 GB of hard drive space...

      --
      ~ C.
    7. Re:Billions here, billions there... by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      How does that translate to football fields? How many football fields can I buy for $60 bn? Or how many libraries of congress can I fill with books? Oh god, don't leave me in the dark here! I have to know!

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    8. Re:Billions here, billions there... by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Maybe they should print it out in $100 bills and stack it on a palate, that would help me conceptualize it, especially if they ship it off to corrupt kleptomaniacs with no accountability.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    9. Re:Billions here, billions there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > No one even *knows* what a billion is. Can you conceptualize one billion things? I don't know what a billion is. I can't even fathom it. Anyone who tells you they can is lying. All we know is that a billion is more than a million and less than a trillion.

      You're wrong about that. If you try to hold them one at a time, yes, you'll go crazy because, counting one item per second would, it take you 11 days to hit 1 million. You have to go up by factors of 10 each time.

      Close your eyes, imagine one point of light on each finger tip so that you have 10 (if you're missing fingers, or have extra, I'm sorry, just make sure you get 10 lights in a row). This 10 is very important, because you need to be able to expand things along 10 object rows.

      Now take those 10 and form a grid of 10 by 10 with all the spaces filled in. That's 100. It's pretty easy to imagine. Next, you form 10 sheets of that, evenly spaced, into a cube of 1,000.

      Shrink the cube, because you need a row of 10 of these. That's right, 10,000 now. Then a flat sheet of them for 100,000, just like when you had 100. Then a cube for 1 million. Almost there!

      Repeat that as many times as you like, just don't lose the structure of your cubes when you shrink them. It's not hard to get to a billion, and it's not hard to go past that once you have a bit of practice.

      So yes, you CAN imagine a billion (or more!), it just takes practice and effort.

    10. Re:Billions here, billions there... by BenVis · · Score: 1

      This comment reminded me of a wonderful book I had when I was little: How Much is a Million? by David M. Schwartz. The book takes big numbers and presents examples of what a $BIG_NUMBER of something would look like, such as how big a fish bowl would be to hold that many goldfish. In the case of a billion, you'd need a fish bowl the size of a stadium to hold that many goldfish. I remember that in the back of the book were calculations justifying the conclusions, but I don't think I ever read that part. I'll have to go back and have a look.

      --
      "Preceded by itself yields falsehood" preceded by itself yields falsehood.
    11. Re:Billions here, billions there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about in pennies?

      FWIW, one billion in hundred dollar bills would be a stack about 1km high. That's around 10 cubic metres, which would make a pretty impressive pile in your living room, although it might break the floor since it would weigh several tons.

    12. Re:Billions here, billions there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way I can wrap my head around that much money is to convert the figure into stadiums, specifically Safeco Field. Safeco Field cost about $500,000,000.00, I believe. So that's about 120 Safeco Fields! Glad to help!

    13. Re:Billions here, billions there... by khallow · · Score: 1

      I think it's a lot of money to put into organisation of which the effect is disputable and limited. I bet you'd save far more lifes spending that money on trafic safety, health care and old fashioned crime prevention. Or perhaps use it to actually achieve at least a little bit of those 'millenium goals'. That might just stop some terrorists along the line as well.

      Traffic safety is already quite adequate in the US. Health care is overfunded and throwing more money at it isn't the solution. I could see a reasonable case for more spending on crim prevention. But I don't see that 60 billion dollars is needed for any of these things. OTOH, knowing what's going on in the world is clearly worth 60 billion USD.
    14. Re:Billions here, billions there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How the budget compares amongst disciplines:
      Engineer: 6.0000E10 Dollars. This is enough to purchase 4.0003E8 copies of AutoCAD 2007.
      Physicist: 60 gigadollars. At a dollar a mile, that's like 1% of a lightyear.
      Network Engineer: 60 billion bucks. That's like a dollar for every email sent each day.
      Economist: 60 billion 2007 US Dollars, or 0.45% of the US economy.

    15. Re:Billions here, billions there... by asninn · · Score: 1

      It's very easy to visualise a billion, actually. Just imagine you've got a bunch of small cubes of 1x1x1mm (small, but certainly imaginable), and then use those to build a large cube of 1x1x1m (large, but certainly imaginable). Voilà - that's 1 billion small cubes you used.

      --
      butter the donkey
    16. Re:Billions here, billions there... by kuhneng · · Score: 1

      I've always thought that in the context of governments, big numbers should be reported on / discussed in per-capita dollars.

      $60Bn / year is $200 per capita. All things being equal (they're not), I spend two weeks worth of grocery money on national intelligence every year.

      Per capita numbers are great because they work at all levels of government. If your city proposes spending $10m to repair a few local roads, you can evaluate the $50 per capita that represents against projects at other levels of government.

  36. Right... by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Because spending more money always makes things better and not worse.

    --
    Deleted
  37. It's all part of the plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't let them fool you! They did it on purpose so that we would believe exactly that.

  38. Now... by neckjonez · · Score: 2, Funny

    That is a hell of a lot of bake sales!

  39. haha? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    where's the *fine* haha tag when you need it?

  40. Conceptualize by oyenstikker · · Score: 1

    Sure you can, you just have to put it in the right context.

    A million bytes is (approximately) a Megabyte. A billion bytes is (approximately) a Gigabyte.

    --
    The masses are the crack whores of religion.
  41. conceptualization by rodentia · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Can you conceptualize one billion things?

    A billion things is a thousand millions of things. The decimal orders of magnitude, scientific notation and other notation systems have been developed precisely to represent such large numbers. This is sufficient to allow for some pretty significant conclusions to be drawn about a billion in relation to other numbers.

    When you say conceptualize, I think you mean count.

    --
    illegitimii non ingravare
  42. Didn't happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They would need a lot of money to fake all those events.

  43. VoWiFi FUD by mach1980 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The article mentions VoWiFi quality as poor, which makes me believe that the writer is handling the truth somewhat irresponsibly.

    I work for one leading VoWiFi company that currently installs a lot of systems at US hospitals. Do you think the hospital administrations should accept anything than perfect performance?

    A MOS of 4.2 using ETSI's own measurements and seamless handover is what we are talking about. Not FUD about dropped calls etc. Our i75 passed Cisco's own certification program before their own product and has won a number of prices for best product.

    Y.T.

    --
    Break the sound barrier - bring the noise.
  44. Not really by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Informative

    the good way to hide something that will be spotted s to purposely obscure it with all sorts of mis-information. Think about it. There is no way to encrypt a movie or a picture. But if you hide it in a bunch of mis-information, then it is possible to keep it hidden. Al Qaeda has long ago given up using human carriers or encrytion. They embed their information in various files all over. Then they use human carriers to say which set of files to look at. This is called Steganography.

    That is also how the DOD, CIA, and NSA works. There is so much information, that it is impossible to hide it all. This is no different than the "slip-up" that occured in the 80's concerning project aurora. It never was. But it kept the USSR and our free press (it was relatively free back than; now it is censored.) looking for it, rather than at our space birds.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Not really by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      the "slip-up" that occured in the 80's concerning project aurora

      That "slip-up" consisted merely of a budget line item known only as "Aurora". All that proves is that, at some point in the 1980's, there was some secret project code-named Aurora that received a certain amount of money. That's not very enlightening--we all already knew that there were secret government projects, and we could probably surmise that they had code names. The fact that, to this date, we still have no fucking idea what that money actually went to is more of a testament to government secrecy (reports of hypersonic, windowless spy planes have never been substantiated).

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    2. Re:Not really by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Aurora was intended to be "slipped". From a contact that I trust, It never received a cent (and the money was never spent). That is not to say that somethings are not happening, but aurora was a direct fake.

      This budget report is the same. The feds will have checked this over many times to make sure that this info did not "slip" out. It is just meant to send a message to a group (either China or Al Qaeda). While somethings slip out, when it is this high-level, than it was not a slip up.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Not really by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      Possible theory, but the "high-level" parts of the government are far from infallible, and Al-Qaeda didn't exist in 1985 when the "Aurora" line-item slipped out. Other sources I've read indicate that "Aurora" was the codename for spending on the B-2 stealth bomber, and not the Mach 5 spyplane we always hear about--not that the spyplane doesn't exist, mind you.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    4. Re:Not really by poopdeville · · Score: 1
      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    5. Re:Not really by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      The slipping of aurora was for USSR. The B-2 was already on its way when the aurora slip occurred.

      The slipping of today's budget is either for China or Al Qaeda (I would guess china). No doubt that this particular admin is one of the most inept that we have had. But this was far too easy of "slip". CIA, and NSA have processes in place to prevent just this. And yes, they review these documents to prevent just this.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  45. (OffTopic) Re:Stargate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The amusing thing is that the TV show makes the same people who were the evil conspirators in the book into the good guys!
    I've seen that with The Basketball Diaries. The movie ends with a reformed protagonist. The book ends with a desperate addict. Using same words.
  46. Never underestimate the by daninaustin · · Score: 1

    Never underestimate the stupidity of government.

  47. How do you *know* it removed that data? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously? How do you know?

    Unless you have access to the source code, and know how the app interprets data, you CAN'T know that.

    1. Re:How do you *know* it removed that data? by Nullav · · Score: 1

      I know you're just trolling, but that's like saying we can't know Word actually deletes characters when you hit backspace, rather than simply storing and not rendering them.

      --
      I just read Slashdot for the articles.
    2. Re:How do you *know* it removed that data? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is exactly what word does, assuming you saved the document before hitting backspace. All it does after the first save is to store a diff of the original save and the current document. I think there is a way to disable that feature though.

  48. Screwy as hell! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Just like saying someone working for one company screwed up, so all companies must be incompetent, and have been for 40 years? Do you not think that sounds screwy as well?

    No kidding! It's been that way for way more than 40 years...

    (On a more serious note, the larger the team, the more incompetent people there will be in it. Just one incompetent person is enough to screw up any given conspiracy. Given the number of people required for any of the big conspiracies, it is beyond belief that no one has leaked the details.)

  49. All that money by darjen · · Score: 1

    And we still aren't safe from terrorists. I really wonder how anyone could argue that this isn't a massive waste of money?

  50. What a load of blissfully ignorant *SHIT* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's important to remember that $60BN doesn't spend itself, and it doesn't spend itself in small numbers. A whole lot of Americans knew that a whole lot of money was being spent on (essentially) nothing. It's also important to remember that this money mostly goes to defense contractors, and most of that goes to the upper management. And you know this HOW? You pulled it out of your ass, or someone else as deluded as you TOLD it to you, and you credulously swallowed the whole fish tale?

    I think someone turned off the oxygen to your space suit that you're wearing - your brain is hallucinating...

    Make no mistake: the rich don't spend in proportion to their income. Yeah, they don't invest it, either. Rich people's money just utterly disappears.

    Now sit there and explain to me why New Orleans is still a disaster area Ray Nagin and the dumbasses who elected and RE-ELECTED him.

    Why aren't southern Mississippi and southern Alabama still disaster areas?

    why 10 million kids in the US don't get enough food to eat Fatuous stupidity. How many people are actually starving in the US? Why does the UN use separate standards for "hunger" in the US when compared to the rest of the world?

    I well remember the calls that changed from "feed the starving" to "fight malnutrition". Now twits like you can't decide whether to bash the US for being fat or for having too much hunger.

    ~1% of the population (3.5 million people) is homeless (third of those are children) Once again, why do I have the nagging suspicion that statistic originates in a region inside Uranus?

    This nation's spending priorities are so out of whack it is abhorrent. You're entitled to your opinion.

    But you support it like you've been bukkaked with stupid.
    1. Re:What a load of blissfully ignorant *SHIT* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well done, but ...

      > ~1% of the population (3.5 million people) is homeless (third of those are children)

      Mental health mostly. Due to do-gooders it is almost impossible to commit anyone in the US or make them take their medication. Now championing the rights of the mentally ill sounds good in the abstract, the truth is that these people can't make informed intelligent decisions because ... wait for it ... they are mentally ill. They are fucking nuts baby! Sure if they took their meds they could be productive members of society, but since we can't make them take their meds ... they are fucking nuts and can't function. They can't function. They loose their jobs. They lose their homes.

      So, why do we have so many homeless?
      Because the Democrats worked to make it that way!
      The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

      .

      .
      And now a word from our sponsor ...

      'Homeless' Humbug
      Hey, did you know that last week was "National Homeless Persons' Memorial Day"? The Associated Press reported Wednesday from Honolulu:

              For the first time, Honolulu joined cities across the country Tuesday in remembering the thousands who died homeless in 2004. A record 125 cities--25 more than last year--are holding events this week to observe National Homeless Persons' Memorial Day.

              "The memorial day is a way to make sure no one's life goes unnoticed," said Michael Stoops of the Washington-based National Coalition of Homeless.

              The homeless coalition estimates there are more than 3.5 million homeless Americans nationwide. An estimated 3,000 died last year, and the homeless coalition expects that figure to rise this year. The No. 1 cause of death was natural causes, followed by homicide, suicide and hypothermia, Stoops said.


      Presumably the hypothermia cases weren't concentrated in Honolulu. In any case, let's look at those numbers:

      The coalition claims that 3,000 out of 3.5 million homeless people died last year. That's a death rate of 0.86 per thousand. According to the CIA World Factbook, the overall annual death rate for Americans is 8.34 per thousand. That means that if the coalition's numbers are on the level, the average American is 9.7 times as likely to die in a given year as the average homeless person--this notwithstanding the sky-high rates of substance abuse and severe mental illness among the "homeless."

      Is the secret of long life to live in a cardboard box? Or are the Coalition of Homeless's numbers simply bogus?

      Homelessness Rediscovery Imitates the Onion

      "If George W. Bush becomes president, the armies of the homeless, hundreds of thousands strong, will once again be used to illustrate the opposition's arguments about welfare, the economy, and taxation."--Mark Helprin, Oct. 31, 2000

      "A bipartisan Congressional initiative passed Monday promises that relief, in the form of a national, 12-cent bottle-and-can refund, will soon come to the nation's estimated 600,000 homeless."--the Onion, Dec. 15, 2004

      "For some of the estimated 36,900 homeless people in New York City, empty cans and bottles are better than no cans and bottles at all. . . . Advocates for the homeless complain that New York enforces 'quality-of-life' laws 'selectively,' punishing the poor and homeless for activities, like gathering empty cans, that others are allowed to do."--Village Voice, Dec. 17, 2004

  51. O/T: your sig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who the f*** decided that sentences on the Internet shall no longer be formatted with two spaces after a period?!
    French spacing has always been hotly debated. The internet has little to do with it.
    1. Re:O/T: your sig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Who the f*** decided that sentences on the Internet shall no longer be formatted with two spaces after a period?!

      French spacing [wikipedia.org] has always been hotly debated. The internet has little to do with it.

      Yo, asshole, I decided it. Satisfied? Now sit down and shut the fuck up with your miserable, irrelevant mewling.

      Jesus, is this really the most important thing in your silly, little life?

  52. AND... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is this important to post on SD? Oh thats right, undermining.

  53. In the Words of Napoleon by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1

    I've always had more of a chuckle over what Napoleon told his bigwig Talleyrand: Vous êtes de la merde dans un bas de soie!

    ...laura

  54. WARRING GATSE ABOVE!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nice trick... none the less.

  55. $60billion almost 25% higher than expected... by handmedowns · · Score: 1

    and yet.. its still only HALF of what we've been spending annually on the war in Iraq.

    --
    The road between democracy and tyranny is paved with secrecy in the name of security.
    1. Re:$60billion almost 25% higher than expected... by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      And less than one TENTH of what we spend on needless social programs

  56. Assumption being that the Cold War is indeed over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Washington idiocy aside, the worst assumption that this story makes is that the Cold War is over... http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pasta nalysis/main.html. Read up. There is a world chess game going on and Americans are not paying attention.

  57. And what about... by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    ...instead of burying a "Remove Hidden Data" option somewhere in a menu as a CYA move (so that when users inevitably fail to use them, you can comfortably refuse to admit your responsibility by citing an obscure feature of your program designed precisely to allow you to disclaim responsibility), what about engineering the product so that the file format only keeps the information actually displayed in the document? You know, as in, engineering the program so as to make it possible to use the way the document is visually represented in the screen as a source of inferences about what information will be revealed to document recipients or concealed from them.

    This isn't rocket science, you know. It's just standard user interface design. With WYSIWYG, the UI is inviting people to use paper documents as a metaphors for understanding the screen display. If something isn't showing in a paper document, then the paper document simply doesn't contain that information; the paper is only surface. The idea that when you send somebody a document, it may contain more information than what you can see, is in contradiction with the WYSIWYG principle the software's UI was designed to make us use. Have you even sat down to think how to solve this problem?

    There's another obstacle: most software's handling of files is not built around a distinction between "master" files (used to edit the document, and which may legitimately need to contain more information than what is displayed in any one view) and "distribution" files (used to hand out to people who only need to read the document). Master files potentially do need to include information that should not be revealed in the corresponding distribution files; distribution files do not need to support editing of their main content. So, design the UI to support users' reasoning about this problem. Use a metaphor of a "workspace" where you assemble "scraps" of information from many sources to produce a "finished" document, which is the thing you send to a recipient, and respects the assumption that its information content is transparent from how it looks.

    That is, instead of building the whole UI around the metaphor of a finished document (WYSIWYG), build it around the metaphor of creating a document, which involves elements and tasks that are not visible in the finished outcome.

    But most important of all, stop blaming the user for not knowing how to use badly designed software, and stop shirking off design flaws by putting in stopgap CYA features into software. Take responsibility for the fact that your software isn't as easy to use as it might be, and that it makes it easy to do many bad things.

    1. Re:And what about... by toleraen · · Score: 1

      ...instead of burying a "Remove Hidden Data" option...what about engineering the product so that the file format only keeps the information actually displayed in the document?

      Just because you might not use the hidden data doesn't mean others don't. I know I'm treading on MS fanboy status saying this (don't worry, I'm typing this from a fedora core 4 laptop), but I actually like and use the the 'hidden' data. If a document I create gets handed around the office, I want people to be able to find out that I created it if they have other questions. If I'm sending a document around for review, I want people to see the different revisions, what changes have been made, who made them, etc. Think "Content Management". If I ever send a document to another business area, I simply remove the data.

      That said, I do think there should be the option to stop saving that type of data though. I wouldn't want that as the default though, for the above reasons. And for your obstacle, simply open a document and 'print' it to PDF. Simple enough.

  58. There's something creepy by nightfire-unique · · Score: 2, Interesting

    .. about granting the state the right to keep secrets from taxpayers.

    Can you imagine if your employees were allowed (and encouraged) to keep business secrets from you, their boss? Imagine if you hired a contractor and he refused to give you a breakdown, line by line, of his expenses. You'd fire him in a heartbeat, right?

    --
    A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    1. Re:There's something creepy by KillerBob · · Score: 1

      Yah, but there probably aren't other contractors out there who'd kill to get their hands on the blueprints for your house so they could plan a break-in and steal your TV. Or worse, to kill you.

      It's not a question of hiding the information from you, it's a question of hiding the information from the Bad Guys (tm). If the wrong information comes into the hands of the wrong people, then some of the right people can get killed over it. And the sad reality is that this kind of information, at least when the US was more actively involved in a war of espionage against the Russkies (I'm not naive enough to think that it's stopped, but it is nowhere near as intense as it was 30 years ago), was enough to get an idea of the kind of numbers the US epsionage establishment kept on the roster. And that kind of information could be used to plan a counterstrike.

      --
      If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
    2. Re:There's something creepy by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Imagine if you hired a contractor and he refused to give you a breakdown, line by line, of his expenses. You'd fire him in a heartbeat, right?

      That depends. If I'm hiring a contractor to destroy countries, assassinate my enemies, kill people, find out other people's secrets, and so forth, I would probably understand if he didn't want to share his methods with me.

      Of course, a better analogy is this: we, the taxpayers, are like shareholders of a corporation. Do corporate officers keep secrets from the shareholders who own the company they are simply hired to manage? The answer is yes! One part of a company will even keep secrets from another (try getting a job at an Apple Store and just see if you get to read the source code to iTunes, or learn about the planned features of Mac OS X 10.6).

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  59. 50 percent wasted on Powerpoint presentations by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    And the rest down a black hole where it does no good, anyway.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  60. It actually does make sense by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    The government is just made up of, get this, people and they do fuck up from time to time, even on important shit. Well, for many of these conspiracies, you are talking about a whole shitload of people that would have to be involved. I mean think about the whole 9/11 thing. Think about the number of people it would take to quickly, covertly, plant explosives in the towers, direct a missile (no idea why they think it is a missile) at the Pentagon and then do all the subsequent coverup necessary is staggering. So you have all these people that need to be involved, and you have a very small pool that you can draw from. These people need to be ones that you can trust absolutely, and they also need to have essentially no morals at all. So it isn't like you get to be choosy and select only the very best in the world.

    Given all that, it seems real likely that someone, somewhere along the line is going to fuck up and it is going to get noticed. It's not that the government is incompetent, it is that the government is made of people, and those people can and do fuck up. Thus it really stretches belief that they could successfully execute a conspiracy on the scale that is talked about and not have a single fuckup that reveals it.

    This is precisely why the government works so hard to compartmentalize information and keep it on a "need to know" basis. It's not that people at that level aren't trusted, they have to be (or they wouldn't have clearance), it is that you want to keep fuckups to a minimum. Much better chance something stays secret if only 6 people know about it than if 60,000 do.

    1. Re:It actually does make sense by kickdown · · Score: 1

      The government is just made up of, get this, people and they do fuck up from time to time, even on important shit. Well, for many of these conspiracies, you are talking about a whole shitload of people that would have to be involved. I mean think about the whole 9/11 thing. Think about the number of people it would take to quickly, covertly, plant explosives in the towers, direct a missile (no idea why they think it is a missile) at the Pentagon and then do all the subsequent coverup necessary is staggering. So you have all these people that need to be involved, and you have a very small pool that you can draw from. These people need to be ones that you can trust absolutely, and they also need to have essentially no morals at all. So it isn't like you get to be choosy and select only the very best in the world. Well no, actually it takes just two men: Bush meeting his old friend Osama, saying "You know, I really wouldn't mind if, say, the WTC was blown up by an 'accident' of yours." Job done, and looks perfectly real - because it is. Not that I believe in any of this shit, but it's kinda nice to stir up new conspiracy theories :-)
      --
      Continuous positive slashdot karma since... uh, maybe next year.
    2. Re:It actually does make sense by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Even if that was the way it went down, takes WAY more than two people. It's not like Bin Laden is just going to walk in to the US, or Bush fly over on the sly to see him. Many people have to be involved to work out a meeting like that. Then of course there's the question of actual execution, if the government were to provide material support more people still would be involved.

      However the main point is that's not how the 9/11 conspiracy theories go. They say the airlines didn't cause it, that explosives did, a controlled per-floor demolition that our government planted. It boggles the mind to think about the number of people you'd need to install all those in buildings as large as the twin towers and to do so in a timeframe where they weren't discovered.

    3. Re:It actually does make sense by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      Bravo, Good Citizen kickdown, bravo!!

      The poster you are responding to, Sky something-or-other-crap, obviously has little to no real-world experience and just keeps repeating that same old talking point: it only takes 19 Arabs but requires hundreds or thousands of Americans (one hears the same lame neocon-neofeudalist-regressive talking point about illegal immigration - "We can't find any Americans who are capable (for H1-Bs) or willing to do the work (for illegals)." Gooollly, I guess those Arabs and Mexicans are just two SUPER RACES after all (no offense intended to either group).

      In a well-thought out operation - which, after all, didn't work perfectly (review Flight 93 situation, please) they would use cutouts (that would be Osama's chums) and support personnel who would be taken care of later (for any ignoramuses out there, please do a thorough and detailed research into the backgrounds of the passengers aboard those four jets - remember, no actual criminal investigation was ever performed).

    4. Re:It actually does make sense by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Well no, actually it takes just two men: Bush meeting his old friend Osama, saying "You know, I really wouldn't mind if, say, the WTC was blown up by an 'accident' of yours." Job done, and looks perfectly real - because it is. Not that I believe in any of this shit, but it's kinda nice to stir up new conspiracy theories :-) Well, if Osama really hated Bush he could've released a tape saying they did exactly that. It wouldn't be enough evidence for impeachment, but it'd certainly help the Bush-bashers and give them another thing to drone on about.
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
  61. Yeah, right. by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    Maybe not, but an OSS program would have allowed them to modify the source so "invisible" classified data CANNOT be included in a report that leaves the system.

    Yes, because OSS programs are all infinitely malleable, so that with very little effort, you can revise design and architectural decisions that influence the whole codebase, and modify the program to do something its creators never envisioned, while keeping its pristinely clean code just as clean as it was when you received it. Yeah, right.

    OSS does not remove the problems of software engineering.

    1. Re:Yeah, right. by Mariner28 · · Score: 1

      OSS does not remove the problems of software engineering.

      Microsoft does that way better than OSS. They skip the software engineering step entirely and just begin coding! :)

      --
      "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
  62. Counter-intel by dino213b · · Score: 1

    Consider the remote possibility that they revealed those numbers deliberately and that they routinely do that sort of thing to throw off foreign elements. Don't forget our D-Day counter-intel. Think about it - it's the perfect mechanism for slipping bits and pieces out that whoever looks at them might consider 100% genuine. Perfect distribution mechanism! No need to slip spies into organizations, just turn on track changes and "lose" USB keys every so often.

    Of course my personal view is that they accidentally let information slip out more often than not.

  63. Um, did you read my comment? by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1
    I quote myself, from the comment you just replied to:

    There's another obstacle: most software's handling of files is not built around a distinction between "master" files (used to edit the document, and which may legitimately need to contain more information than what is displayed in any one view) and "distribution" files (used to hand out to people who only need to read the document). Master files potentially do need to include information that should not be revealed in the corresponding distribution files; distribution files do not need to support editing of their main content. So, design the UI to support users' reasoning about this problem.
    1. Re:Um, did you read my comment? by toleraen · · Score: 1
      I quote myself, from the comment you just replied to:

      And for your obstacle, simply open a document and 'print' it to PDF. Simple enough. You're basically suggesting that files be saved twice. My response to that was to have a "Master" copy (the original doc), and a "distribution" copy (the exported PDF). Where's the confusion here? If you want it done from within Word, open the "Master" copy, do a file --> remove hidden data. Save it to originalfilename_distro.doc, and automatically remove the data. Then do a tools --> protect document. You could probably write a macro within word to do this with a simple keystroke.

      If you want this done automatically, then you'll be constantly saving to multiple files. Writing to a file share over a slow network link is painful enough as is, I don't need twice the overhead. Then there's the space requirements of having two files saved. Multiple that by a few hundred users, and your IT department is going to get a little irritated.

      If your complaint is that it isn't user friendly, then your users need training. Especially if you have employees sending documents to someone outside the company. Then it's their JOB to know how to use Office. Pack 'em all in a room, pull up Word on an projector, and get it done with. Send 'em back to their desks with a handout with directions.

    2. Re:Um, did you read my comment? by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      And for your obstacle, simply open a document and 'print' it to PDF. Simple enough.

      Oh, yeah, that's really simple. (Ignore the non-computerfolk people in the crowd asking "What's PDF?")

      You're basically suggesting that files be saved twice.

      No, I'm not. What I'm suggesting differs in two regards:

      1. In each "save," it wouldn't be "the same file," because the application would be built in such a way that the difference between them is obvious. There's the concept of sharing the raw materials that go into making a document, and there's the concept of the finished product. If you want to collaborate on authorship, you need to share the first; if you just want to give somebody the end result, you give them the latter.
      2. I'm not thinking about it in terms of "saving" "files"; these are the terms of the traditional paradigm, and they are part of the problem:
        • You shouldn't have to "save" the work area for your documents at all. The computer should make sure that your work is never lost unless you specifcally ask to delete it. The whole concept of having to "save" your work is broken, and we need new tools and paradigms for organizing and deleting work in computers.
        • In the read-only copies, the operation wouldn't be to "save" to a file. It would be to prepare a finished version of your work for somebody.

      As I said: "design the UI to support users' reasoning about this problem."

      Especially if you have employees sending documents to someone outside the company. Then it's their JOB to know how to use Office. Pack 'em all in a room, pull up Word on an projector, and get it done with. Send 'em back to their desks with a handout with directions.

      I don't disagree with training people to do their job better. What bothers me is the fact that the computer industry systematically fails to own up to its own responsibility to design usable software, and uses a combination of blame-the-user and CYA features like "Delete Hidden Content." We're building solutions that are way more complex to use than they need to be, and require users to constantly pay attention to all sorts of hard-to-guess little details. For example as whether the way the application stores data into files in a primitive filesystem is appropriate for sending the file to untrusted recipients.

    3. Re:Um, did you read my comment? by Arterion · · Score: 1

      I do this a lot: -Copy text from word. -Paste to notepad. -Copy from notepad. -Paste back to new word document. Also, PDF -is- really easy. You just print to it as a printer. And if not, every Windows machine with office should have the Microsoft Office Document Image Writer you can print to as part of the package. And if not, there's the XPS document writer you get with some update off windows update.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
  64. Re:running the numbers (What planet do you live on by SrJsignal · · Score: 1

    It's enough to employ (are you sitting down?) one point two MILLION people in $50k/year jobs. Um, no not on this planet, or any other planet. You think that a company that employs someone at a $50k/year job for a true cost of $50k/year, try a true cost for that person closer to $100k, so that already halves your number. The other thing is, you have NO (that's zero, nadda) proof to back up your assertion that "most goes to upper management". 1. The 60billion employs LOTS of Americans (that's true citizens by the way, being intelligence and all). 2. You can't expect the government to feed every last person (I believe the word for that is communism, we'll all work, we'll all eat) If you don't spend US government dollars on intelligence, soon they'll be no US to provide all of the things that you're asking the government to provide (and you better brush up on your Islamic teachings, or your Stalinism, or Marxism, choose your conquerer).
  65. Security is easy by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

    Just change the font color to white on white.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  66. 2% ??? I want 60% by Jeff+Molby · · Score: 1

    Of course, I'd do that by slashing the total budget at an even greater rate than I'd slash the Minipax budget.

    Show some love for Ron Paul.

  67. I apologize in advance if I am wrong by chitselb · · Score: 1

    Maybe this is a conspiracy theory, maybe not...

    But this article links to thespywhobilledme.com which in turn has a link to Amazon where you can buy the thriller "Outsourced" which (coincidence or correlation? you decide) will be released TOMORROW! So it might just be a shameless plug. Maybe RJ Hillhouse (if that's her *real* name) discovered Taco's password (which probably isn't 'password') and posted the story on Slashdot's front page herself (if indeed she's really a woman). To recap:

    1) write spy novel
    2) get published
    3) get slashdotted
    4) click click click
    5) profit!

    --
    never ask a question you don't want to know the answer to
  68. Your tax dollars at work. by oddaddresstrap · · Score: 1

    Have a nice day.

  69. Do you know how they spend that money? by tyrr · · Score: 1

    They bought Albania.

  70. Re:running the numbers (What planet do you live on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah that guy has his numbers wrong.

    1.2 mil is nothing.

    The metropolitan area, which includes Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties, with a combined population of more than 5.4 million people

    Which is where I live. So what's the purpose in having out for that many people? So you leave about 75% in the dark, support 25%, and in the end those people become accustomed to handouts and become a burden. Screw that.

    In addition 50k does not include retirement benefits, health insurance etc. True cost of an employee is usually much higher than their annual wage.

    I hate ignorant ppl.

  71. And they still can't find Osama by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1

    $60 billion not enough, George?

    Here's my standard deal.

    You pay me $1 billion in advance and I'll deliver Osama bin Laden to you dead or alive - your choice! But dead is easier - in ninety days.

    Such a deal I offer you! How much have you spent - or not spent - so far on this little project?

    And I'll probably make a nine hundred million dollar profit on the deal - which is my motivation.

    Better take me up on it - before someone else offers me the same deal. Because I don't care who pays me.

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
    1. Re:And they still can't find Osama by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      um it was never about getting bin Ladin.

    2. Re:And they still can't find Osama by dbIII · · Score: 1

      They found him at Tora Bora but then the troops were redeployed for the distraction in Iraq. In hindsight I think it was a combination of an honest mistake in thinking that less troops were necessary once they had found him and the staggeringly stupid idea that it would be better PR if a combination of local forces of dubious loyalty and the amataur military in the CIA captured him. He simply walked out during the mismanaged chaos of what was incorrectly seen as an easy operation and the rest is history. It's no wonder the conspiracy theorists are having a feild day, but incompetance and counterproductive political interferance can produce more dramatic results then some huge imagined conspiracy.

  72. Maybe by Aleksej · · Score: 1

    If it's secret, they may have changed the numbers proportionally or however they wanted.

  73. Typo ! by alexhs · · Score: 1

    Oops, sorry, I meant an increase of 127% and 139% : 2005 budget is 227% of 1995 budget, that's a 127% increase. Idem for 2000 to 2005 budget.

    --
    I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
  74. GOOD! by Elsan · · Score: 1

    I don't understand how a "democratic" country can not leave these numbers into the citizens's hands.

  75. A full accounting (forensically, that is) by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
    ..it's happening right now in Iraq, where millions have been wasted and in many cases...

    Seriously, u-bend, it's billions upon billions, I believe, with $12 billion in hard currency which disappeared a few years back with another $8.8 billion unaccounted for (total = $20.8 billion). Gee, do you think that 10-year, no-bid contract to Halliburton, and those single-source, no-bid contracts (over 4,000 total) for Hurrican Katrina clean up are part of the problem???

    Sorry to be the one to break this to you guys, but democracy is dead and a criminal organization is running (make that bleeding) the ole US of A....(And what about that $2.3 trillion that's unaccounted for over at the Penta(costal)gon????

  76. But what about... by sgt_doom · · Score: 1

    Heeeyyy, there's no T.I.A. on that post of yours - sooo that explains that $60 billion.....

  77. All of that money...and so little to show for it by dtjohnson · · Score: 1

    $60 billion is an unbelievably large amount of money to give to the ding-dongs who run our intelligence services. There is little or no accountability or oversight for a lot of that money because everything is 'secret' but undoubtedly a lot of the money is going to enrich a relative few through slush funds and special contracts. Some of the graft and corruption could be forgiven if there were actually some results to show for all of that spending but the overall effectiveness of the US intelligence agencies is the worst among the G8 and probably also behind China, Russia, Ukraine, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Vietnam, etc. The result is that Congress and the executive branch know less about what is really happening in the world than any other comparable group anywhere, even though our spending is probably orders of magnitude more. One wonders where the CIA gets the money to fly their victims around the world to the secret prisons for torture and now we know...it just comes out of the slush fund and the amont spent on stuff like the torture flights is probably so small relative to the money being spent to fly friends and family around the world to swank resorts that no one even notices.

  78. Is DoIT the best place to work evar?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the fourth thread today where I've seen a detailed posting from you. You're going to think this is a troll, but you're my hero. I would need pictures of my boss screwing a farm animal to be able to put all my workplace info in my slashdot profile and leave a trail basically showing I spend all day on slashdot commenting extensively about my hobbies without immediately being fired. As it is, I'm forced to post fanmail like this one anonymously for fear of retribution ;) If you tell me all IT jobs are like this in academia, I'm leaving corporate America tomorrow! Seriously, I could commute to Madison from here...do you have any openings?

  79. They've told us, now they have to kill us by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

    Oh fuck!!

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  80. Not from that book by lennier · · Score: 1

    "I've always been amused by the premise of this franchise. It comes from one a (supposedly) non-fiction book called The Stargate Conspiracy, which claims that a secret cabal is bringing back alien technology through a portal dug up in Egypt, and trading it for money and power."

    Sorry, no. _Stargate_ the film was released in 1994. _The Stargate Conspiracy_ is a 2001 book. There is no way the book influenced the film unless the authors also invented time travel.

    However, the general premise of aliens influencing ancient civilisations certainly did come at least indirectly from other speculative 'nonfiction' books in the astroarcheology genre. Erich von Daniken's _Chariots of the Gods_ (1968) and Zechariah Sitchin's _The 12th Planet_ (1976) and their numerous sequels and imitators. It's now a fertile subgenre with modern writers such as Graham Hancock. Whether there's any truth in it is another issue.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    1. Re:Not from that book by fm6 · · Score: 1

      You've been to Amazon, haven't you? 2001 is when the paperback came out. The hardcover edition came out in 1999.

      But you're still right, of course. The movie came first. All the same, those "chariots of the gods" bozos you mention don't posit a conspiracy with a magic portal dug up by archaeologists. EvD had the aliens arriving in plain old space ships. ZS talked about evil hominids who live on a dark planet that comes back every few thousand years.

      I cannot escape the conclusion that "The Stargate Conspiracy" is a ripoff of the TV show! Is nothing sacred???!!!

  81. In other words: by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    "I think like a computer guy, and I don't see anything wrong with the way the computer demands that I interact with it."

  82. Re:All of that money...and so little to show for i by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    oh come on now, it's not cheap to fly people to syria so they can be tortured while screaming at your own people how evil teh syrianz are is it?

  83. The Powerpoint File by recordsquest · · Score: 1

    The file can be found at RecordsQuest.org

  84. On the subject of open-source... by Akonas · · Score: 1

    Perhaps it's a good thing that the government's so resistant to open source formats. This way, the public gets to know what they're doing, without them even having to release it!

  85. If it's an honest mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    then it is a criminally negligent mistake.

    Moved far too few troops in to Afghanistan for the job (and know to be too low because both the UK and Russians had found out how many troops are needed for that theatre) and then decided that moving most out halfway through and putting MORE troops than they bothered with the afghan problem in to invading Iraq (after their mar machine had been decimated earlier) shows either that they had no intent of winning in afghanistan or that they are criminally incompetent.

  86. The Truth is Out There...? by NateCoz · · Score: 1

    I have one, simple question regarding this powerpoint presentation:

    Why should I believe that the source is valid?

    Any one of us could come up with a realistic looking presentation, complete with spy-like obfuscated data... why should I believe that this is the real thing? Is there any additional, hard evidence (such as paper documentation) to back up the facts presented? Furthermore, what is the track record of the authors of "thespywhobilledme.com" regarding their factual, impartial representation of factual data? What are their sources, and are they credible?

    1. Re:The Truth is Out There...? by AlexCrawMan · · Score: 1

      The source is a senior procurement officer in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. That office has responded to Hillhouse's numbers, but did not deny it was their presentation. The PowerPoint was on the Defense Intelligence Agency's website. It's legit. The Spy Who Billed Me has been in the MSM. God knows what their sources are, given it's about spies. I don't think they broadcast this, but there do seem to be several ex-CIA who comment there and none are challenging what's written.

  87. Re: one space after period by joel.neely · · Score: 1

    Read any good book on professional typography, such as The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst.

    The 'Net is no longer in high school typing class. ;-)

  88. Print and scan the document by Vr6dub · · Score: 1

    The only sure fire way to prep a document like this is to print it out and rescan into pdf.