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Dell Refuses to Sell Ubuntu to Business
An anonymous reader writes "I had a surreal experience with Dell today.
My boss asked me to order a new computer for our small, non-profit business. Wanting to support Dell in their decision to sell computers with Ubuntu installed, I decided to order one.
First, I talked to a small business representative, who informed me that I could not order one of the Ubuntu-based computers through the small business department. I had to go through the "home and home office" department.
I called the Home office department. I asked the representative if I could buy one of the ubuntu computers for my company. She said (and I quote), "these Dell computers are designed for personal use only, as long as you use it for personal use, you can purchase one."
So I lied and said I would....
Next, I tried to buy it on our business credit card. They would have none of that. She told me that I had to buy it through a personal card. Now, as a non-profit, our business does not pay sales tax (10% in Tennessee). Had I bought it with my own card, I would have had to pay tax (~$90), which my company would not have reimbursed me for. So.....no Dell today."
...take your business, literally, elsewhere?
Why not purchase as an employee gift. I would not buy from Dell myself but if I did that is what I would do.
"Its Mary's 30th year with the organization, we want to do something special for her."
The GPL, for those that truely understand.
Dell has been selling systems through the business end with FreeDos for a while now. Purchase one of those and install Ubuntu yourself. It really isn't that hard and you can actually customize the install to what components you actually need. Or you could purchase one and install any free distro you want.
I can list the millions of reasons why they only want to sell it as "personal use". Remember, Dell (and any other PC company) is still a business designed to make money and if they cannot please everyone all of the time, oh well.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
They probably have a system in place that allows only businesses to buy business PCs, irrespective of whether its running Linux or not. And they probably see Ubuntu as only being appropriate for personal work, hence ..
Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence. Doesn't make this any less annoying though !
Businesses AREN'T SUPPOSED to have opinions on the likes of SOFTWARE! Only GEEKS do that...
~~~hsl~~~
I can see why they might want to sell different products in their different "channels", presumably they have different support staff for each one and not all are trained for all products.
I can't see why they won't accept a business card for an item purchased in the "home / home office" section though.
ccalam - acoustic versions of new songs.
Dell segments its business based on how customers are perceived to use their systems. This is why a consumer can't purchase a Latitude notebook, yet Small Business customers can. Support is also divided along these lines for the most part. You can purchase Gold Support "highly recommended" on business machines but not so on the consumer machines. Ubuntu Linux, as far as I can tell, is being offered as a consumer grade operating system at this time.
I would wager if you talked to the Small Business sales rep again you could still purchase an nSeries system with FreeDOS on it or you can purchase a Precision Workstation with Red Hat Linux. Simply go to www.dell.com/nseries.
Customer: "I would like a Dell and Ubuntu without Ubuntu on it."
Dell: "You can't have it."
Customer: "Why not?"
Dell: "Well it wouldn't be a Dell with Ubuntu now wou'it?..."
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
As it would appear that they sell LINUX computers so that they can get positive mindshare from the Slashdot types, but they don't want to make it TOO available to people like businesses so that they don't get Micro$soft too angry when they go to re-negotiate their OEM agreement.
What this basically means is that LINUX is no further ahead at the end of the day.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
Umm, and you didn't hang up and call them back and get another salesperson who doesn't give a crap?
Thats the tactic I use. You always run into stubborn people in the service industry, but 9 times out of 10, the next person you reach won't care either way and will process your transaction just fine.
Dell wants to sell computers with Linux on them, (or, even better, SAY that they do) they just don't want to have to support computers with Linux on them.
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
Nice Try. But Dell's not just selling you Ubuntu, its also selling you the computer on which you're running it. And they *can* place additional restrictions on the hardware.
I was interested in supporting Dell and it's Ubuntu decision. I'm not traditionally an Ubunutu user. I've SuSE/openSuse on my 3 year old Dell laptop since I got it years (didn't have any hardware compatibility issues and auto-detected everything important) and otherwise use CentOS and Debian but thought it would be worth buying one just to ease hardware selection since laptop hardware changes so much.
I looked at the specs for the Ubuntu laptop. 6 pounds! Holy crap, no way in hell I'm lugging that around. My current Dell laptop is under 3lbs. I brought up the page for Dells smallest laptop and wanted to compare the hardware to their Ubuntu one. I buy under government/higher-ed. Guess what...no mention of Ubuntu as an OS option in that category. Looks like it's only available in the Home section.
Ho hum, back to the old fashioned way. Checked for wifi support before I bought the littlest one, paid the MS tax, and kept my fingers crossed.
Dell's Ubuntu option is a nice idea, but restricting it to a single Laptop isn't all that engaging.
I had the same experience with HP a couple of years back when it decided to offer PCs with Mandrake. They were not available through the business channel and that was it.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Yet another big company that looks like it's doing a good thing, that only turns out it's performing some lame marketing stunt. My guess is that these Ubuntu machines will be short lived in their product line-up. This on top of the story (last week?) about Dell also not providing a warranty on these machines? At least their servers are all right. I'd never be caught with one of their PCs.
> American Consumers are DUMB!
Yes. Along with pretty much any nationality you can think of. We're all dumb.
If Dell won't sell one particular configuration through one particular channel, there'll be a reason for it. More likely than not, it's not profitable for them to do so - it'll cost them more to do you a special than they'll make back in profit.
If that's the case, they don't want your money - they may just as well mail you a check/cheque for the difference and call it quits. They're hardly likely to do that now are they?
I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who complain when a company won't take their cash. If they won't take it, they don't want it and your complaining isn't going to do anything about it.
Anyway, allow me to climb down off my hobby-horse. If you want to make Dell pay, buy a normal Windows-ified PC and claim the money back as per the EULA.
So, don't complain - you have no right to complain. However, what you do have is a choice. Use it.
It's not about that. Dell makes "Business computers" they have whole lines of "business" computers, very specific models; Optiplex, Precision, PowerEdge. They come with a limited number of OS choices...which includes Redhat Enterprise and SUSE Enterprise.
You can't buy Ubuntu on one of those, and you can't buy windows xp either. Clearly Dell views Ubuntu as "not ready for the server" and is unwilling to put it on a server class machine. You can still buy the machine with no OS, and add Ubuntu yourself.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
No, consumers in general are dumb. If they weren't, they would be customers.
Thus I feel vaguely insulted every time someone calls me a consumer.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Why is it somehow bad to call out a company for a stupid business decision?
I mean, I don't have to buy for them, but I sure as hell don't have to hold back my "they're stupid monkey fucking gutter slut" comments, either.
Plus, it's nice to know for the rest of us. It's nice to know what businesses to avoid if the situation ever comes up.
It's pretty pathetic that you complain about the right to free speech. American Consumers are dumb? I'd say the idiot who bitches about free speech is dumb. But hey, far be it from me to stop you. Even retards are allowed to get their say in. Freedom of speech and all.
That would be why they offer redhat support and SuSE support as well.
The full list of supported linux can be found here. Just because one guy wants to buy one machine that doesn't come with Ubuntu, everyone is up in arms. Dell never claimed that they were going to offer it on every machine. They're damn careful what they offer for business machines in general, and you can always get a business class machine with no OS.
Buncha fricking sheep. Dell's making a good effort on linux.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
http://system76.com/ Great laptops, reasonable prices, Ubuntu ships on the beasts. What more could you ask for?
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
This habit of jerking customers around is why they're going to follow Gateway down the drain. Good for HP and Apple, sucks for Dell's customers and shareholders.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Look, I'm no DELL fanboy but it's obvious that in an organization as large as Dell it's going to take time for the whole company to be on the same track. There could be any of a number of LEGITIMATE reasons for what you encountered. I'm just going to guess, but one reason COULD BE that they are not yet ready to support biz fully and that they are starting off with personal use first and will soon add biz support as soon as the contracts are signed, people are trained, testing and evaluation, etc.
Just because Dell says we will support LINUX today does not mean tomorrow morning everything will be good to go. BTW...the prior sentence uses exaggerations to make a point. If you don't get it you don't get it.
"Nice Try. But Dell's not just selling you Ubuntu, its also selling you the computer on which you're running it. And they *can* place additional restrictions on the hardware."
No they can't. It has nothing to do with the gpl, and everything to do with consumer protection laws (even business purchases are covered in many jurisdictions by the implied warranty of fitness for use). Unless the hardware comes with a per-seat or per-user license, which is not the case here, they cannot tell you how to use it. All they can do is refuse warranty support if its been abused. That is their SOLE option/recourse.
Buy the damn thing and get a refund on the Windows license. The instructions have been posted on the net, including here on slashdot, often enough ... (and tag another $100 onto your claim, for wasted time, since they refused to sell you one without a Windows license, and take them to small claims court for the extra $100).
I know, the subject is simply not true. But this the perception out there nonetheless...
My recent surreal experience went like that (talking to sysadmins in a giant financial company, with thousands of Unix-servers):
How do you like that?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
My wife was gaped at when she asked "Is this the queue for the till?" in a supermarket. It's "is this the line for the checkout?" here.
Most Americans are not cosmopolitan...
That sounds like a match made in hell. You get to enjoy all the disadvantages of Linux *and* all the disadvantages of Windows at the same time. Your Windows services and kernel are still exposed to malware, you have all the DRM fun of the Windows world, and you have more overhead when running the UNIX applications you bought the computer for.
Bah. You're just trying to cheat at 'Scrabble'!
Microsoft's per-processor licensing survives, but in the form of per-model licensing. I'm sure that Michael Dell had to personally kiss Steve Ballmer's pinky ring in order to provide Ubuntu without having Microsoft double their Windows licensing fees. Part of the agreement being to keep it out of their business computers. Total speculation on my part, but there must have been some seriously tough negotiating at the highest levels of management in both MS and Dell to make this happen.
I am pretty impressed with Dell for doing this - it is worth it to live with a home PC even though the support sucks and it is harder to purchase.
I am right now trying to get two desktops from Dell, for a training program next week. I ordered them last week, and paid for overnight shipping. When they didn't arrive as anticipated, I looked up the status, and found that they were to ship -next- wednesday, the last day of the training. Hm-m-m-m.
When I called the nice lady in India, she informed me that "Overnight shipping sijmply means that, when we ship the computer, it arrices the next day." Oh, really? It was beyond her understanding that the reason that people pay for overnight shipping is that they are hoping to receive the good promptly, and that perhaps customers might not understand the value proposition for overnight shipping taking place two weeks in the future.
I used to be a big fan of Dell.
I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
I know that Dell has been marketing the Ubuntu systems as intended for "Home and Home Office". And I know that they play LOTS of games with their prices, selling the same system to different market segments for surprisingly different prices.
:-)
For example, compare the specs of the $699 Home Inspiron 1501 to the $549 Small Business 1501! The latter costs $150 less but has the EXACT SAME SPECS except for a smaller battery (a $30 upgrade). So you can basically get a 20% discount by buying the small biz version... Then again, sometimes the promotions for the home systems are better. The deals and discounts are CONSTANTLY changing, so I go to edealinfo.com, which does a good job keeping track of them.
The thing is, in my experience Dell doesn't care if individuals buy Small Business systems or vice versa. Heck, they don't even care if some random person buys a computer through their Employee and Affiliate Program. For example, a few weeks ago I got a really good deal on a new Inspiron 1501 by buying it through the affiliate program... I just gave them my home CC number and mailing address, and sure enough the computer arrived a week later.
I think the difference might be ordering online vs. ordering over the phone! When you order online, there appears to be absolutely zero verification of whether your home/business/affiliate purchase is going to the right place... but over the phone there may be some stupid bureaucracy in your way. To the OP, I suggest trying to do your order again online!
My bicyles
The quality of support they provide in the business division assumes a level of competence on the customer end that is not safe to assume with Linux, which could cause them to lose their shirts as well-meaning newbies stumble through transitioning hand-held and paid for by Dell.
Ubuntu is pretty straight-forward and I've been using various flavors of Linux for a decade, but if I had a support line to call the first few days I was trying it out for the first time, I would have burned through the price of a cheap laptop in no time trying to get a few of my odder doo-dads to connect. I mean, honestly, when was the last time their support department had to tell a Windows customer "please apply these five patches to your kernel source v.xyz and recompile?"
Nonsense.
GPL section 5 (emphasis added): "You are not required to accept this License, since you have not signed it. However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or distribute the Program or its derivative works."
GPL section 0 (ditto) : "The act of running the Program is not restricted."
The SCO lawsuit makes me wish my company were in Utah. We need a new building.
... Is Dell trying to avoid supporting these machines in a corporate environment? That's half-assed support, and Dell should be held accountable for it. Either stand behind your product, with the disclaimer that Linux-based may not work for everyone, or don't sell the damn things at all ...
Dell is doing exactly what you recommend, they do not want to offer half-assed support to businesses so they do not sell it to businesses. Keep in mind that Dell has completely different support teams for home and business. The business side will take a much longer time to train up on Linux than the home side, more variations and usage patterns. Also keep in mind that the economics/profitability of Linux is entirely different for home vs business. Home is probably more likely to just go with a canned configuration, business more likely to customize the Linux installation. Ubuntu should have been a clue that this was home centric.
The article is misleading. Dell will sell businesses workstations and even servers with Linux on it, but not Ubuntu Linux. If you go to www.dell.com/linux, you can see that all the Linux-based business hardware is, in fact, RedHat.
It is quite obvious that Dell has a contractual agreement with RedHat that the only Linux that Dell will sell to business customers is RedHat, probably in exchange for RedHat kicking in support for those systems. They legally could NOT sell Ubuntu to this guy as a business, because it would have been a breach of contract with RedHat.
Don't want to pay the Microsoft tax and support Dell in its efforts to support Linux? Great! Buy a RedHat-based Linux workstation instead, then do what you want with it.
The
...and charging rediculous prices too.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I doubt it. For one thing, there's this little area called antitrust law, under which I'm fairly sure Microsoft aren't allowed to pull that kind of stunt any more. For another thing, for a software company that is (relatively speaking) in big trouble to antagonise a hardware company that is (relatively speaking) one of its major routes to the business market is probably not a smart business move, either.
Besides, even if Dell start shipping Linux boxes to business, it's hardly likely that this will undermine Microsoft's dominant position on business desktops. It might even work in their favour to encourage this now: things like Linux GUIs and big name products like OpenOffice aren't ready to take on Microsoft in the business world yet. If a few big businesses try to make the switch now and find the OSS-based alternatives aren't good enough, word will get around (no pun intended!) and Microsoft are probably safe for another few years. Try the same experiment in another two or three years, though, and if current rates of progress are anything to go by in OSS world, Microsoft might find themselves with a much more permanent shift taking place that really would damage them seriously.
In other words, Microsoft probably isn't anywhere close to the bargaining power required to pull this off, and even if it were, it's probably illegal, and even if it were legal, it's probably shortsighted.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
>Due to an extremely silly incident involving a support contract a server running an Oracle instance, I've avoided DeLL for years
Did they insist on you shutting down a production server to run their stupid diagnostics tool when you called in a bad disk?
They did this to us a few years ago. They kept on refusing to send a replacement disk, insisting on *proof* that the disk was indeed bad. The diagnostics software they wanted us to use required us to shut down the server, which would have been extremely disruptive. Eventually we just said forget it, called back, and got a different rep who eventually finally caved and sent us the disk.
Granted, this was years ago, and their service has since improved, but that was a pretty brain-dead policy to have even back then.
-Z
For example: http://system76.com/
We really have no idea how much OS X adds to the cost of the machine, but I think we can say with absolute certainty that it is more than $0. I'd venture to guess that it's even more than $129.
1) The build the cost of OSX into the price of the machine.
2) Apple PC's use the same hard drives as Dell, IBM, HP, and home built computers
3) Businesses that standardize on Windows don't want Apple PC's. They don't want to dual boot user workstations, and they don't want to deal with the extra complexity. They also don't want to pay those prices for the name Apple, like consumers do. The Apple notebooks aren't as overpriced as the Mac Pro, but they aren't an inexpensive option.
4) Dell's business support is pretty good.
5) He wants to buy a machine, with a free OS, without the big fuss. A Mac + BootCamp + Ubuntu + unsupported = Not What He Wants.
Macintoshes aren't always the solution. Get over it.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Even though pricing out two similar systems with one being more expensive you have to remember that not all systems are created equally.
Dig down and compare things like chipsets and things like measured memory performance before you decide that two systems are actually comparable (even two systems with the same major chipsets can have different performance characteristics). Also, make sure you are getting the same number and type of expansion slots (for Desktops anyway).
I avoid places like Dell because you can't control which motherboard you are getting (you get some unnamed Dell-branded one with no detailed technical specs) which has a big impact on system performance.
And finally, consider the value of your dollar based on it's influence in the market. "I'm going to buy from your competitor" has different market impact than "well, I'll buy from you to save $100 even though I don't like it".
I can't vouch for System76 as I have never used them but I sure like the idea and would strongly consider supporting them if I was in the market (however, I would rather get a new Apple laptop to replace my old G4 PowerBook, I've been using BSD-based systems for nearly 25 years). And again, I look at total value, not just price -- but even then, when I price out laptops to be truly similar to the Apple's I don't find any significant price difference. (Don't forget to include battery-life, screen resolution, brightness, contrast, overall quality, firewire support, etc when comparing laptops).
I don't know what the hell people in this discussion are smoking. Dell most definitely supports linux on many of their configurations for small/large business and government divisions. They don't sell SuSE on most of the laptops or desktops, but the higher-end workstation ones do have them as options. They sell RHEL service contracts on the servers, and even go through the trouble of making the configurators hide options that different OSs don't support. And they will never tell you that you voided your warranty because you installed a different OS (no matter what it is).
Home/Home Office is the shitty, loss-leader part of Dell. Don't deal with them. Ever.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I think the reason dell does this is fairly obvious. Small business sales at dell have different service policies than home sales. For example they get US tech support rather than tech support outsourced to India. They have different on-site repair policies. The computer selection is different too. And of course they probably have greater risks in case of negligence with businesses. So they presumably want to dry run the linux model in the consumer market before investing in the infrastructure to support it in business. e.g. easier to temporarily hire an outsource crew that can do Linux support than to retrain your US staff.
Now as for why not accept the business credit card on the consumer web site. Well that has nothing to do with this being a linux machine. That's just their policy in general. I'm sure they'd love to make an exception for linux machines, except that the market is so tiny why bother to have policy exceptions. People would exploit them and pretty soon you'd have businesses buying the $399 consumer entry-level dells rather than the business class machines then turning around and getting angry when they get outsourced tech support.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.