Privacy and the "Nothing To Hide" Argument

privacyprof writes "One of the most common responses of those unconcerned about government surveillance or privacy invasions is 'I've got nothing to hide.' According to the 'nothing to hide' argument, there is no threat to privacy unless the government uncovers unlawful activity, in which case a person has no legitimate justification to claim that it remain private. The 'nothing to hide' argument is quite prevalent. Is there a way to respond to this argument that would really register with people in the general public? In a short essay, 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy, Professor Daniel Solove takes on the 'nothing to hide' argument and exposes its faulty underpinnings." At the base of the fallacy, as Bruce Schneier has noted, is the "faulty premise that privacy is about hiding a wrong."

Comments

Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[thesolo]

Wired has already answered this question extremely well.

A few examples (first three are a bit tongue-in-cheek):

• If I'm not doing anything wrong, then you have no cause to watch me.
• Because the government gets to define what's wrong, and they keep changing the definition.
• Because you might do something wrong with my information.
• Who watches the watchers?
• Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Or, perhaps a bit more plainly, "Privacy protects us from abuses by those in power, even if we're doing nothing wrong at the time of surveillance.".

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Normal Dan]

Because the government gets to define what's wrong, and they keep changing the definition. I think this is a very good argument. You might not have something to hide now, but in the future you might. The government changes and one day you might not like the change. By then it may be too late. Suppose they raise taxes to 90%. What can you do? Protest? Suppose they declare protesting to be a terrorist act? You might argue they cannot do that due to the constitution, but terrorists are not protected by the constitution. Etc.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[mdm-adph]

Or, perhaps a bit more plainly, "Privacy protects us from abuses by those in power..." It's very hard to convince someone of this, though, when it's their party in power.

Especially when they think their elected leader was largely chosen by God.

I hope I'm not being too specific here.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Jack9]

Privacy protects us from being abused by not just government, but other people (and organizations).

How many Senators have available social security numbers, cell phone numbers, daily date planners, daughter's after school program schedules, etc. It's not just about government, when there's so many more people likely to take advantage of private information.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Bearpaw]

Or, perhaps a bit more plainly, "Privacy protects us from abuses by those in power..."

It's very hard to convince someone of this, though, when it's their party in power. Especially when they think their elected leader was largely chosen by God.

And given that their selected leader was chosen by God, then any abuses by those in power are conveniently justified -- especially any abuses necessary to keep them in power.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Blue Stone]

The one I like: "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged." - Cardinal Richelieu

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[CrazyJim1]

Because the government gets to define what's wrong, and they keep changing the definition.

I'm in the minority because I like the Bush administration, but I do have to say that Ashcroft pissed me off when they imprisoned Tommy Chong. For the longest time anyone could buy drug paraphernalia in head shops. There was no law against it. Then suddenly Tommy Chong gets arrested ex post facto. They changed the interpretation of anti-drug laws on the fly so they imprisoned a man who did nothing illegal, and had no chance to stop doing it once they declared it illegal. If I lived in California, I woulda been out every day of his imprisonment holding up a protest sign. I'm sure a lot of people would have been there too, but then the government would have just cracked down on them hard because they'd assume they were drug users. The people knew this and never showed up for a rally.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Anonymous Cowpat]

Also, if they spot you doing something today which is not illegal and then make it illegal. They can't (in theory) prosecute you for it, but they could, say;

• arrest you because you have a history of doing it and they can now probably pin it on you
• get some big men in dark suits to accost you in the street and remind you that what you did on the 22nd March last year is now illegal
• Flag you for extra surveillance involving 24 hour watching on CCTV and a camera strategically positioned in your bathroom
• Put around the story that you did it before it was illegal and sociopathic perverts like you can't help themselves from doing it again now that it is illegal

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to catch up on Big Brother

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[nine-times]

Though it's true that there are good reasons for privacy even if you have nothing to hide, I also wonder if we might want privacy even for those who have something to hide.

I mean, often the whole thing gets framed around issues like terrorism or murder or child porn, and in those cases it's easy to let your emotions carry you away and think that perhaps the ends justify the means. Obviously, we want those crimes to be exposed and the perpetrator to be caught. On the other hand, we've all done something wrong at some point. We all have skeletons in our closets. Maybe there are some young people reading this who think, "I don't have any secrets!" Well wait. Sooner or later, something will happen in your life that you'll end up being ashamed of, you'll commit some act that saddens you to think about, or you'll do something that you just don't want people to know about.

These things might not be crimes. They might be that you have some dirty little fetish, that you cheated on your spouse, or that you screwed-over one of your friends when he/she really needed you. It might just be that you've been a bit greedy or harsh to people who didn't deserve it. Or it might even be that you were in a difficult situation, didn't do anything wrong, but the facts taken out of context could be twisted to make you look bad.

There are plenty of things that are legal that can ruin reputations, destroy relationships, embarrass people publicly, and generally ruin lives. Often, there's no positive purpose in bringing these things to light.

People sometimes fail to realize that civilization runs on forgiveness, forgetfulness, and ignorance. If everyone's skeletons were suddenly dragged into the light, it'd be very difficult to maintain work relationships and personal relationships. If everyone were suddenly punished for everything they'd done wrong, no one would escape a whipping. The way our system works is that a crime must be noticeable, someone must be hurt, and the police and prosecutors need to believe that punishing the offense is worthy of time, effort, money, and perhaps other risks. It's for the best. A perfect judicial system which punished all offenders fully would catch everyone at some point. We'd all be offenders, criminals, and subject to public ridicule at various points in our lives.

In the end, such a system would be harmful and oppressive to our society, while the whole point of the judicial system is to help our society maintain stability by reducing the need for vigilante justice/vengence. I'm afraid that, as strange as it may seem, it's better that some of the guilty are not found or prosecuted, and that some crimes go pretty well unnoticed. There's a reason why courts find people "not guilty" of a particular crime, rather than "innocent" in general. It's far better that many of our bad decisions, indiscretions, and unfortunate situations can be stowed away from prying eyes. We ought to maintain an attitude of faith in men, that all men should be treated as innocent until proven otherwise, in spite of the fact that no one is truly innocent.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[TheCarp]

Ahem. This all makes it sound very rhetorical or academic.

"Oh, if we give them power, they might be corrupt"... you sound paranoid, you sound like you might be hiding something. Try this...

This is not about what they "might do", its about what they HAVE DONE.

It is well known fact that before the requirement that warrants be issued and that there was review of wiretaps, that the FBI wiretapped none other than the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. Are we to believe that the good reverend, one of the heroic leaders of the civil rights movement was a dangerous criminal and needed to be watched?

Forget the theoretical, we need not look far to find real tangible cases of abuse of power. It is not the ability of power to be abused, it is the fact that it has been abused. The watchers have already been proven untrustworthy. There is more than ample real indisputable evidence.

Sure we can understand why a person in power in the 60s would have felt the need to watch the good reverend doctor. However, doesn't that make all the more certain the case that it is folly to allow their whims to direct such powers without real oversight?

-Steve

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[StikyPad]

Except that's ridiculous. He doesn't even define line length, so we'll assume length is unimportant:

01 The number 1
02 The number 2
03 The number 3
04 The number 4
05 I eat babies
06 The number 6

Oh shit..

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[fyngyrz]

It's a somewhat higher hurdle to jump, in that it requires a constitutional amendment to remove the prohibition against ex post facto laws

No such hurdle exists. The government makes ex post facto laws, and the supreme court approves them when it gets to see them, regardless of the prohibitions of the constitution. Two examples come readily to mind. One is the prohibition on felons from owning firearms, though the law did not exist at the time of the felon's sentencing and the judge did not declare that a prohibition of owning firearms was a specific part of the punishment to be meted out. I know of no government excuse for this. The other is the registering of "sexual offenders" (Pee on a bush lately? Date someone a year too young on the wrong side of an age line?) where again, the registration was not ordered by a judge and no such law existed at the time, but the law applies retroactively to offenders, thereby increasing the punishment applied by the government. There is an excuse for this one, the argument is that "registration is not punishment, it is just a government function, and therefore this is not ex post facto." The argument is clearly specious, but that doesn't stop them from employing it. See how you feel if you imagine they put your name on such a list. That'll tell you if it is punishment, or just a triviality like listing you as a property owner.

Similarly, the inversion of the commerce clause has been used to create an excuse for the feds to (for example) use the legal system to attack users, growers and vendors of medical marijuana in California. The argument is that the pot, grown in California, distributed in California, used in California, "could" (cough) have been interstate commerce, and so the feds declare they have jurisdiction. The constitution clearly says they have jurisdiction in interstate commerce, not intrastate commerce, and again, we see the government doing anything it wants, regardless of what the constitution says.

I could go on for quite a while, pointing out broad and obvious constitutional violations in the areas of free speech, gun ownership, religion, warrants, article 10 and 14 violations... the point is, though, that the government is completely out of hand and what the constitution says they can or cannot do has long been either a non-issue or one that will crawl through the courts and then ruled into oblivion as have the exd post facto issues.

The constitution offers the means to make changes; but this is not convenient enough, and so we are faced on all sides with unconstitutional law, and told that it'll all be worked out in court if necessary, and in the meantime, comply or face the music.

For your reference: Ex post facto law as the term applies to the constitution, Calder v Bull (3 US 386 [1798]), in the opinion of Justice Chase:

1: Every law that makes an action done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action. 2: Every law that aggravates a crime, or makes it greater than it was, when committed. 3: Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed. 4: Every law that alters the legal rules of evidence, and receives less, or different, testimony, than the law required at the time of the commission of the offense, in order to convict the offender.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Bluesman]

"I'm in the minority because I like the Bush administration"

So YOU'RE the one. :-)

But honestly, for the life of me, I can't think of a reason any group has not to dislike what Bush has done. Liberals hate him by default, he's no conservative, he's done nothing for the libertarians...and he went to war without planning for the inevitable eventuality that the spineless half of the country would stab him in the back when the going got tough.

I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's a well-intentioned person who's just a bit too optimistic, and that screws things up for him.

But given that, what is there to like? Are you a recently expatriated Iraqi in the U.S. with a Mexican illegal immigrant employer who suddenly needed a Medicare prescription drug plan?

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[speculatrix]

if someone says that "if you have nothing to hide", simply ask them two questions:
1/ how much do you earn?
2/ how often do you have sex or masturbate?

it is inevitable they will take offense. Point out to them that their salary can be estimated from their job and their lifestyle, and their sex life is surely perfectly normal and the same as everyone else so if they won't answer they must be doing something illegal or immoral!

in both cases most people would be willing to answer the questions in specific circumstances, in the first case to their tax or pension advisor, in the second to their doctor... but in both cases they would expect the conversation to be kept private.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Chris Burke]

It's very hard to convince someone of this, though, when it's their party in power.

Especially when they think their elected leader was largely chosen by God.

I hope I'm not being too specific here.

Hehe. But there's a good way to get around it -- point out the possibility of the other party being in power in the future!

That's what Republican Senator Larry Craig did on the Rush Limbaugh show. Craig was promoting a bill to add more civil rights safeguards and actual oversight into the USAPATRIOT Act. Rush was asking why such a thing was necessary, and was Craig claiming that civil liberties had been violated by George Bush's administration, and did he have any proof that it had happened. Rather than delving into that trap of pre-prepared talking point responses, Larry Craig pulled a wonderful switch. He said no, he thought Bush was doing a great job respecting liberties, but what if Hillary Clinton became the next President?!

Like magic, Rush was stopped in his tracks. He couldn't possibly argue that Hillary Clinton, Card-Carrying-Commie could be trusted to respect civil liberties based simply on her word! Coming from Rush, that'd practically be like an endorsement for her candidacy! No, suddenly the terrible spectre of a dictatorial Executive run amok with too much power was palpable.

This was a while ago, when the probability of Democratic president didn't seem quite so high. Now I think it should be relatively easy to get the my-party-is-fine-your-party-is-evil Republican types to see the danger. I should hope the same people on the Democrat side should be able to see the truth of the argument quite clearly already. But to actually get results, they'd both have to agree at the same time, and I'm not sure that will happen.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[The_Wilschon]

Actually, MLK Jr. was a criminal, according to the laws on the books at the time. That was kind of the whole point of civil disobedience. Most people today believe that what he did was morally right, but legally it most assuredly was not.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Tackhead]

>> "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged."
>> - Cardinal Richelieu
>
> He doesn't even define line length, so we'll assume length is unimportant:
>
> 01 The number 1
> 02 The number 2
> 03 The number 3
> 04 The number 4
> 05 I eat babies
> 06 The number 6
>
> Oh shit..

See? He uses a programming language with line numbers. Hangin's too good for 'im! But at least he kept his line length below 80 colum--oh shit.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[PopeRatzo]

I think it's pretty hard to disagree with both these arguments, but it begs another question:

Who among us thinks the government should be able to secretly spy on us without either permission or reporting to a court? As we've learned in the last few days, as far as the government is concerned, there is no record of secret wiretaps because, hey, they're secret. So the subject of the surveillance is never allowed to see whether or not they have been watched/recorded/wiretapped (this is exactly the argument made by the Bush Administration in Federal Court).

There's this bit in the Constitution about anybody who is accused having the right to face their accuser and the evidence against them in open court. Who among us does not believe this is a good thing? And if the government says that the citizen that was wiretapped is a terrorist, but doesn't have to show any evidence that the target is a terrorist, even to a secret court, is there any way secret wiretapping or surveillance can ever be Constitutional? Is it even important to pay attention to the Constitution any more in an age of a "terrorist threat"?

There are those here who proclaim support of the Bush Administration's secret wiretapping program, so I'd like to hear their answers to these questions. Since the users of Slashdot are mainly people who work very specifically with the technology that is used and is affected by these issues, it's important for us to have this discussion. Many of us will, in the coming years, directly deal with this issue from one side or the other.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[StewedSquirrel]

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

Another example may be the retroactive increases to the statute of limitations.

There was a man tried and convicted due to recorded confessions he made AFTER the statute of limitations had run out. Because of his confessions, the legislator moved to increase the statute of limitations RETROACTIVELY, and therefore, he was arrested, and convicted of the crime he admitted to having committed.

I heard a number of people cheering this action, but I couldn't help but see yet another erosion in the freedoms that made the US an example to the world.

Stewed

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[blitziod]

how many people REALLY are affected by murder, terror, and child porn? I mean outside of the lost freedoms. Sure WTC was a tragedy BUT in terms of other wars, we are relatively safe. Nobody thinks Benlain is going to invade the USA and round us all up into camps. Murder is rarely (esp murder by strangers not spouse, relative, crime partner)committed against the GENERAL public. Cameras at stop lights are not gonna stop gang hits OR spousal murder. The gangs will just break the camera's 1st ( or avoid them somehow) and the spouse will likely kill his/her spouse inside. Child porn, according to reliable statistics is not all that common. Commercial child porn even less so. I study in teh 90's showed most widely distributed child porn ( used in prosicutions) to have been produced LEGALLY in sweden before the laws went into effect banning it. They are busting guys for trading the same old images from th 70's. Those children are my age now...Serial pedophiles( the ones who molest strange children, not relitives ) are fairly rare also. As is stranger child murder or abduction. Do not get me wrong, all the things are bad, shocking horrible acts. They are just also rare and not worth spending resources to go after to the degree that we would be with cameras and such. The impact will be too low and the cost in freedom too great

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[jafac]

You can go back to the wiretapping of Dr. King.
Or you can go back to Nixon's abuses; the reason why the rubber-stamp FISA court was created (that Bush ignores).

Or you can listen to the rhetoric from the right that; people arguing against wiretapping, etc. are guilty of "pre-9/11 thinking". To wit: those people are guilty of pre-1776 thinking. Uncontrolled government surveillance was one of King George III's specialties. No, he didn't have anything like listening devices, or special recording switches sitting at internet routing offices. He had gangs of thugs, called "redcoats" who could enter your home, and take whatever they liked, and charge you with treason if you were friends with guys like Ben Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, et. al. No trial was necessary, and you couldn't demand to see the evidence against you in order to contest it. Frankly, it's why we have a Declaration of Independence, a Constitution, and a Bill of Rights (particularly the 4th Amendment) in the first place. Anyone who forgets these lessons, really ought not be talking about how to best govern this country. They're free to do so; which is a good thing, because those of us who ARE familliar with American history, can readily identify the morons as soon as they open their mouths.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[yankeessuck]

See McCarthyism for an concrete example of prosecution/persecution after the fact. The next witchhunt is always potentially around the corner and one can never be sure what it'll be about.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[hey!]

Solove.. Solove... I remember this guy.

A few years ago, he proposed a pretty damned good set of statutory reforms that would make it possible for private individuals to sue when their privacy was violated. Basically he proposed setting modest standard dollar figure on damages from improper disclosures that lead to things like ID theft. Prior to that, you couldn't sue to recover costs from the rigamarole these data flubs put you through because although clearly they damage you, nobody could put a dollar figure on the amount of that damage. Without that "per se" damage figure, none of your other costs were recoverable.

This was a pretty good idea, because the basic stance of US law since the 1970s is that it is not up to the Government to fix things if somebody violates your privacy, except in a few egregious special cases. The explicit philosophy since the 1973 HEW Report on data privacy is that it's up to you to bring the malefactors to account, and the only way to do that is by suing. Since you can't sue if the initial crime doesn't have dollars attached to it, you're SOL.

This guy is worth listening to, I think.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, if everything and everyone is totally and unequivocally exposed, society itself may eventually adjust for the better. Such mass exposure may cause people to reevaluate their presumptions of what is acceptable and what is not. Confronting issues in the open is how they get resolved. Of course, the problem is that there will be not be any equal and unqualified exposure. Everything will be filtered through a comparatively small group of people in charge and the information will be used as they see fit.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[nine-times]

I'm not sure if you think you're disagreeing with me, but that was included in my thinking. It's easy to get a skewed perspective when you imagine extreme crimes, but extreme crimes are rare. Also, if the crimes are extreme enough (murders, rapists, terrorists) then the crimes are probably going to get attention by law enforcement anyway, even without ubiquitous surveillance. If some kind of "all-seeing eye" run by the government would catch criminals and wrong-doers, it would mostly catch people doing things that are minor and perhaps even innocuous. People would be caught peeing on the sidewalk late at night, speeding, downloading copyrighted material and breaking the DMCA. They'd get caught for sodomy in the places where sodomy is still illegal. An 18 year old is having sex with a 17 year old in a jurisdiction where that's illegal. You'd catch some kids shoplifting.

Other that that, you'd probably get quite a lot of good blackmail material. This guy is cheating on this woman while she's the one who poops on the floor at work. Some other guy picks his nose and eats it, and some rich woman spends all her money on herself while her estranged husband and kids have very little. There might be lots of information to lord over people, and a lot of ammunition to use against political opponents. Someone might want to run for office or stage political protest to fight injustice, only to find their credibility ruined because once, 20 years ago, he told a racist joke or said something sympathetic to communists. It might not be so damaging except that his opponent is a powerful government official who was able to hunt down an actual recording and leak it to the press.

Maybe you think all this information is good to have stored somewhere, but I think it's better to just let these facts slide out of history and be forgotten.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[steveb3210]

O'Rly?
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?c ourt=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=01-1757

Held: A law enacted after expiration of a previously applicable limitations period violates the Ex Post Facto Clause when it is applied to revive a previously time-barred prosecution.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[netruner]

While this does illustrate an example of a criminal gaming the system, it also lends itself to another point:

If they can do it to a scumbag, they can do it to you too.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[AncientPC]

Because the government gets to define what's wrong, and they keep changing the definition. In the 1920 the US census added a harmless new field: nationality. Two decades later this information was used to round up citizens into German and Japanese internment camps during WW2.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[cduffy]

That's not the same as making it illegal to have done something and then charging someone for having done it. It would be ex post facto if they passed that law and then sent a felon up for having owned a gun last week. That's just a change in the law.

Smoking is no longer permitted in restaurants in California. It's the same kind of thing. People don't get to do that anymore. Felons don't get to own guns anymore.

How is passing a law to the effect that members of the set of people who have at some time committed a given class of crime are to be deprived of some right or privilege not effectively increasing, after the fact, the punishment associated with that crime? You may frame the issue differently -- but it is nonetheless effectively additional punishment for a previously-committed crime.

To take an extreme, consider a law which prohibits those guilty of computer crimes from using the Internet. By no means is it unheard of for avoiding Internet use to be a probation term for those convicted of such crimes -- but to legislatively extend such a prohibition to all of those who have committed such crimes regardless of whether they have completed that probationary period is effectively to indefinitely extend the period of their sentences, every much so as it would be an ex post facto imposition of house arrest for the legislature to craft a law which (on a forward-looking basis) makes it illegal for those who previously committed a given class of crimes to leave their homes.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[ravenshrike]

The problem with the felons not owning guns thing is that there are many felonies which should have no impact on the matter. Unless you have committed a violent felony is there really any reason to take your ability to defend yourself away?

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[slashqwerty]

Smoking is no longer permitted in restaurants in California. It's the same kind of thing. People don't get to do that anymore. Felons don't get to own guns anymore.

So congress passes a law saying anyone who has ever been convicted of j-walking can't assemble at a protest. It's the same kind of thing. Felons don't get to own guns any more. And j-walkers don't get to protest. Never mind that such a penalty did not exist at the time they committed the offense or that they have a constitutional right to protest!

Felons can argue that it's a violation of their rights, but I don't think you can reasonably call that ex post facto.

The parent post ends with a definition of ex post facto. The definition was written just a few years prior to the constitution. Clause three of the definition:

3: Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[dryeo]

You make a good point.
An even better question is about taking away their right to vote, especially considering that some felonies could easily be considered political crimes, eg smoking a joint in the privacy of your home. Once convicted you can never vote to change the possibly unjust law.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[rock_climbing_guy]

Similarly, the inversion of the commerce clause has been used to create an excuse for the feds to (for example) use the legal system to attack users, growers and vendors of medical marijuana in California. The argument is that the pot, grown in California, distributed in California, used in California, "could" (cough) have been interstate commerce, and so the feds declare they have jurisdiction. The constitution clearly says they have jurisdiction in interstate commerce, not intrastate commerce, and again, we see the government doing anything it wants, regardless of what the constitution says.

Excellent point. The precedent for this actually goes back to President Franklin Roosevelt's "New Deal" programs that dramatically increased the power of the federal government. You may enjoy learning about the hoops he jumped through to get what he wanted. Some historians refer to him as the 'father' of 'big government.'

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[PopeRatzo]

Supporters of secret wiretapping aren't the sorts of people to be reading /., so I doubt that you will get a response.

Oh, they're reading. We've all seen them here, complaining about us dirty hippies who think the Bush Administration may have crossed the line with their extra-Constitutional claims and assertions of the power of the "Unitary Executive".

Whether they'll respond is a different question, though. It's tough to support secret wiretapping, even when a mighty, courageous war-president is doing the wiretapping.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[cduffy]

A few years back, we had another simpering wimp... He was so focused on being a "man of peace", that it became a weapon that was used against him and the entire US.

I'll thank you to back up that assertion. Prior to 9/11, Bush was doing less to combat terrorism than Clinton had before him -- despite Clinton warning him at the exit interview that he considered al-Qaida to be the most serious national security threat facing the county at that time.

Do you really want to be represented by a brawling frat boy? Frat boys make enemies unnecessarily -- but hatreds between distant peoples are not so easily healed as those between individuals, and a mistake made now can result in a country which is still our foe fifty years later. Far better to absorb some blows and mete out a measured and effective response than to flail around wildly, trampling over one's stated values and destroying a reputation which has taken centuries to build.

Roosevelt had it right -- walk softly, and carry a big stick. Walking softly in the world of international politics is something done by a statesman, not a frat boy; deciding wisely when to wield the stick, the same.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Mattcelt]

O'Rly?
No, O'Reilly. (Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)

Here's something I wrote for my site a while ago. I also posted it to a similar discussion on /. previously.

Quoth below:
["If you haven't done anything wrong, what do you have to hide?"

Ever heard that one? I work in information security, so I have heard it more than my fair share. I've always hated that reasoning, because I am a little bit paranoid by nature, something which serves me very well in my profession. So my standard response to people who have asked that question near me has been "because I'm paranoid." But that doesn't usually help, since most people who would ask that question see paranoia as a bad thing to begin with. So for a long time I've been trying to come up with a valid, reasoned, and intelligent answer which shoots the holes in the flawed logic that need to be there.

And someone unknowingly provided me with just that answer today. In a conversation about hunting, somebody posted this about prey animals and hunters:
"Yeah! Hunters don't kill the *innocent* animals - they look for the shifty-eyed ones that are probably the criminal element of their species!"
but in a brilliant (and very funny) retort, someone else said:
"If the're not guilty, why are they running?"

Suddenly it made sense, that nagging thing in the back of my head. The logical reason why a reasonable dose of paranoia is healthy. Because it's one thing to be afraid of the TRUTH. People who commit murder or otherwise deprive others of their Natural Rights are afraid of the TRUTH, because it is the light of TRUTH that will help bring them to justice.

But it's another thing entirely to be afraid of hunters. And all too often, the hunters are the ones proclaiming to be looking for TRUTH. But they are more concerned with removing any obstactles to finding the TRUTH, even when that means bulldozing over people's rights (the right to privacy, the right to anonymity) in their quest for it. And sadly, these people often cannot tell the difference between the appearance of TRUTH and TRUTH itself. And these, the ones who are so convinced they have found the TRUTH that they stop looking for it, are some of the worst oppressors of Natural Rights the world has ever known.

They are the hunters, and it is right and good for the prey to be afraid of the hunters, and to run away from them. Do not be fooled when a hunter says "why are you running from me if you have nothing to hide?" Because having something to hide is not the only reason to be hiding something.]

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[ShieldW0lf]

Privacy is only a way to protect you IF THE DATA ISN'T COLLECTED AT ALL.

Having the government keep it under wraps doesn't mean you have privacy.

It means that you are easily isolated.

If everyone is smoking pot, and the government knows through their surveillance who is smoking pot, but for reasons of privacy they do not disclose what they know to the general population, then any time they want to take you in, they can just grab you up, and you will stand alone.

That's what this is all about.

1) Make so many laws that everyone is guilty of something.
2) Convince everyone that it's better to keep things private.
3) Keep watching all the people and correlating data, but keep what you find secret.
4) Now everyone is isolated with their guilt, just like everyone else.
5) Now you can then selectively enforce the laws against those who threaten your power.


This is how totalitarian states are assembled.

Now, you may be a believer in privacy. Personally, I am not.

But if you are going to support privacy, be practical about it. Demand that the data not be collected at all in those cases where it hasn't already being collected, and demand enough transparency of process that you can know absolutely that it never is.

Don't, however, be idealistic about it and let the governments and corporations keep all the secrets they've already collected.

If you've already been caught doing something that is technically illegal, and the proof is in some government database somewhere, which would you rather?

a) Over 50% of the population is also technically guilty of the same thing that you're being judged for doing, but no one outside government offices knows that.

b) Over 50% of the population is also technically guilty of the same thing that you're being judged for doing, and everyone knows that.

Be specific about what you support, and don't be led to think that keeping it as a government secret now that it's too little too late is actually giving you any privacy or security. Because it isn't.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[darjen]

If they can do it to a scumbag, they can do it to you too.

In a similar vein, I sure hope the people who profess the "nothing to hide" argument never get wrongfully accused some day.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[flewp]

Around the corner? I'd say it is already here, and instead of witches or communists, the target is terrorists and others deemed "anti-American" or "unpatriotic".

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[senatorpjt]

hen they're tracking a suspect by looking at credit card purchase activity, should they have to send an agent over to the card center to go through a paper file, or should they be able to subpoena that info and get it instantly in electronic format? The harder it is for them to get the records, the less likely they are to do it for frivolous reasons.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[WhiplashII]

To me, this is the only acceptable reason for privacy. It is the same reason that individuals have unalienable rights to own guns. If we ever get to where we can't destroy the government by force, then government will drift towards dictatorship. If we have guns, we can take the government back when it goes to far - but without privacy, those guns cannot organize an effective resistance.

So we need privacy just like we need guns, to keep the government honest. It is expensive, in lives lost to criminals and similar, just like gun ownership. But it is the only reason the government will not become a dictatorship.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Danse]

Say what you want, but if you are corresponding with a suspected terrorist, then you have no right to expect any privacy. Maybe not, but we do have a right to expect the President of the United States to respect the Constitution and get a warrant. He's not above the law anymore than anyone else is. Or at least he shouldn't be. Oh yeah, and could someone remind me again why we give presidents the power to pardon convicted criminals? Or at least why they don't have to recuse themselves from pardoning those whom they have some relationship with? I can't seem to come up with any good reason for that.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Thing 1]

That's what this is all about.

1) Make so many laws that everyone is guilty of something.

Here begins one of my favorite quotes:

"You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against -- then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. Your fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers -- and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system...that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be easier to deal with."

- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

She wrote that in the 50s. It's so relevant today. You know it took a Constitutional Amendment to outlaw alcohol? Yet today we have so many more substances that are illegal, with far worse penalties than alcohol possession or distribution gave in the 20s! And no amendments were passed in order to outlaw them. Does that seem rational?

Be specific about what you support, and don't be led to think that keeping it as a government secret now that it's too little too late is actually giving you any privacy or security. Because it isn't.

Also, the government is very good at "losing" laptops containing these databases...

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[TempeTerra]

I admire your sentiment, but I doubt that private gun ownership is keeping your government honest. For one thing, I don't think a citizens' militia would have a hope in hell without the support of the military. For another, is your government honest to start with? Speaking as a citizen of another first world country, you guys sure have it rough these days.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Lavene]

So we need privacy just like we need guns, to keep the government honest. It is expensive, in lives lost to criminals and similar, just like gun ownership. But it is the only reason the government will not become a dictatorship. Uh... Are you sure about that? I mean, your (I guess you're American) government does not exactly come through as an honest group that fear the people even though the people do have guns.

I'm living in Europe where we don't have guns but still we have mostly honest governments that respect, and to some extent even fear, the people. Guns kill people, they don't create democracies. One should think you people (Americans) had learned that by now...

A government should fear the people, not because the people might kill them, but because the people have the power to remove them. If the government has to be removed with guns you already live in a dictatorship.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[dryeo]

Federally cannabis is a schedule 1 drug like heroin, worse then Cocaine. While generally the feds won't bust you for a joint they have been known to. Timothy Leary IIRC was busted for 3 seeds in the carpeting of his car. If you are like I used to be, growing a years supply at a time you can easily be arrested for trafficking and if the prosecution plays its cards right you can get life. Up till recently (Reagen era) being a drug kingpin could mean death. Also some states also had the death penalty for things like smoking around children.
Article on the history of marijuana laws in the States, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_history_of_mari juana_in_the_United_States
The controlled substances act http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/csa.html
Now I'm not sure about the dividing line in the USA between misdemeanors and felonies but according to this http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/csa/844.htm#a for a first offence you get a year, second offence 2 years and 3rd offence 3 years max plus a fine in all cases. Seems any crime that can put you in prison for 3 years would be a felony.
Of course if you happened to grow a pound or so so you don't have to deal with dealers etc the penalties get much worst.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[coaxial]

No such hurdle exists. The government makes ex post facto laws, and the supreme court approves them when it gets to see them, regardless of the prohibitions of the constitution. Two examples come readily to mind. One is the prohibition on felons from owning firearms, though the law did not exist at the time of the felon's sentencing and the judge did not declare that a prohibition of owning firearms was a specific part of the punishment to be meted out. Your example shows that you not only have a fundamental misunderstanding of what an ex post facto law is, but also how an ex post facto law would be enforced, and what criminal punishments are.

You're example is not an ex post facto law, because it is not a criminal punishment. It is a licensing requirement. The only possible ex post facto situation would be if you already were a felon and a legal gun owner, and then they passed the law saying "no felons can own guns." Even then, that still wouldn't be ex post facto situation because after the date the law went into effect you couldn't own a gun, and if you transfered ownership of them prior to the law's enaction then you wouldn't be involation of the law. (Laws rarely go into effect the moment they are signed. Especially laws that require time to become into complience with them.) The only ex post facto part would be if the government cross checked the felon records with the gun ownership records, and then arrested you for posessing a gun that you no longer owned because you sold it three years prior to the law coming into effect. But that's not what's going on in your example, because that's not what goes on in real life, and you're intent on indicting the real life situation.

You want to cloud the issue by using the term "punishment," and say that that since the effect is arguably the same as changing the criminal sentencing guidelines after the fact, that they these laws are unconstitutional because the constitution forbids a specific legal mechanism. Of course, it's an inconvient truth, that the forbidden legal mechanism isn't being employed in these case, and so shame be upon anyone driving a truck through this hole in your cleverly crafted arguement.

Your argument makes just as much sense as: "Your newly passed a law saying I have to be licensed to practice medicine is infringing on my right to free expression, and I used to do that, so this is ex post facto!" The only reason your post has been pushed up to +5 is because no one has called you on the fact that convicted felons are subject to regulatory laws just like everyone else.

Furthermore, you're trying to argue that the employed legal mechanism that is moot, but it should be declared unconsitutional on mechanicistic grounds. I wish you would make up your mind if the legal mechanism is moot or not. I understand your delima. I really do. If it's moot, then you can claim the moral high ground by trying use mechanistic argument against it because mechanisms are irrelevant, but if isn't moot, then you have to yield that it isn't an ex post facto criminal law. Oh fuck! You're screwed either way! Do you know what that means?

Your argument has catastrophically collapsed due to being based on a logical fallacy.

I know of no government excuse for this. Bullshit. You provided the "excuse" in your post, promptly calling it "specious" because it has the unfortunate characteristic of actually having the facts on it's side.

Your argument is crap. You have no understanding of the legal issues involved. Well that's not entirely true. You know what they are, but you don't want them to be true, so you'll just declare it as being prima facie bankrupt, and hope that no one will call your bluff.

Too bad. I call.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Yer Mom]

Not with government. They can just do it anyway, and raise taxes to cover the extra costs. It's not like you can say "these prices are too high, I'll shop elsewhere" unless you emigrate...

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[pegr]

If they can do it to a scumbag, they can do it to you too.
 
I am a scumbag, you insensitive clod!

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[XxtraLarGe]

So your argument is, "No fair! He got away with committing a crime?" I never understood the argument for a the statue of limitations. What? It's only a crime if you can't avoid indictment for x years? There's no ex post facto here! He violated the law at the time he committed the crime. Case closed. Either we live under the rule of law, or we don't. If the law states that there's a statute of limitations, then the law must be respected by those who made the law and those who enforce the law. It may indeed be true that a statute of limitations is a bad idea, or that it is too short, but that doesn't mean that we arbitrarily change it simply because we don't like the fact that somebody exploited the law.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Gabrill]

It pains me to say this (because I wholeheartedly disagree with the ideas of slavery), but the US Civil War marked the last feasible attempt to counter the US government with force of arms. There will never be another chance. No matter how many registered hand guns, hunting rifles, or even National Guard armories a state's militia may have, it will never be able to stand toe to toe with the federal military forces. The states' counterbalance to the federal government as proscribed in the 2nd Amendment is gone. Yes I do interpret the 2nd amendment as referring to the 50 states individually.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

I never understood the argument for the statue of limitations.

The evidence you might want to use to defend yourself in a trial might no longer be available after a "long" time.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[DuckDodgers]

I'm living in Europe where we don't have guns but still we have mostly honest governments that respect, and to some extent even fear, the people

US spending on the military, even excluding Iraq and Afghanistan, dwarfs the spending of any other nation. We also have colossal intelligence gathering agencies. Our government is in a much stronger position relative to the average citizens than yours - and our current leaders keep reaching for more power, and encountering just token resistance from most of the populace.

America. Leading the rest of the world in the race to 1984.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[BgJonson79]

What's to stop the government from removing the power of the people to remove them?

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[downhole]

Based on what I have heard about it, I do support it. The threat of terrorism is ridiculed a lot around here, but the fact is that there are terrorists out there who do want to kill us. You can't not know this if you pay any attention at all to the news. If you want the Government to have a shot at stopping them, they need to have some surveillance/intelligence abilities.

Most of the outrage here strikes me as political posturing. I.E. whenever a Republican is in power, Democrats argue against everything he does with any halfway plausible argument they can think up, but you never hear them saying what exactly you want him to do, and then approving when he does that, complete with all of the unintended consequences that result. And of course, Republicans do the same thing when a Democrat is in power. Just more of the same. A terrorist attack happens, and it's "Why didn't you stop it, you moron!". Then they increase surveillance and such to try to stop the next one, and it's "Don't you dare invade my privacy, you bastard!"

If you want to convince me that you really do oppose any kind of similar surveillance on ideological grounds (not just knee-jerk Bush bashing), what I want to hear you say is that when another terrorist attack happens, or even in regard to 9/11, that the Government can't be expected to stop it. That you prefer that they be limited in their ability to stop it if it means that you get more privacy. That you look at the blood of dozens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of your countrymen dead and say that it's too bad, but you'd rather have more privacy. These are the consequences of taking such positions in the real world. It's easy to argue for such things on an internet board, but it's much harder to implement them in the real world and deal with the consequences that you didn't think about or take seriously.

Don't mistake the above for a strawman attack - personally, I'd like to see more of that attitude. I'd rather see more people take responsibility for keeping themselves safe then cry to the Government for more protection every time some people get killed. I'd rather see us hitting terrorists and their support structure overseas then trying to crack down on everything and everyone here at home. But I'm sure some of you posting here - you know who you are - have argued for stop the terrorist attacks + don't send the military to attack anyone + don't spy on me. I'd love to live in the perfect fantasy world where that was possible, but it just doesn't exist. There really are people out there who want to hurt you, and if you don't stop them one way or another, they will succeed eventually.

Re:Wired: The Eternal Value of Privacy

[Littleman_TAMU]

"Guns kill people, they don't create democracies."

They gave us the ability to create ours (USA). Oh, and guns don't kill people, that's the person holding the gun and pulling the trigger or the person who fails to teach their children about gun safety.

"A government should fear the people, not because the people might kill them, but because the people have the power to remove them. If the government has to be removed with guns you already live in a dictatorship."

You just made the argument for gun ownership. Governments should fear us for our right to remove them. If you don't have guns and it comes to the point where having them is the only way to remove the government, then you're screwed. It's true that, at that point, you probably are in a dictatorship, but that's when you need guns most. Giving them up early on, just because you're not in a dictatorship now makes no sense. As the saying goes, "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -- Ed Howdershelt

OK...

[Anonymous Coward]

...so what's Bruce got to hide?!

Re:OK...

[hawkinspeter]

He's got many secrets http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/726

Way to respond to this argument

[Anonymous Coward]

Pull down your pants.

Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness

[jshriverWVU]

IF you enjoy your privacy with "nothing to hide" but generally just like being a hermit of sorts, or just living your life without a bunch of statistics attached to you, that should be reason enough. As an American isn't it a right not to be forced into situations that would divulge information about ourselves? Not because "there's something to hide" just that a person man want to live a peaceful life without numbers, statistics, and data mining attacking your personal peace.

Re:Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness

[shaitand]

'Even if it's benign'

Thats just it, we don't all agree on what is benign. I don't trust the government to decide for me and quite frankly don't consider the government to be benign. I'm not merely afraid of a change in colors in the future, the decision making government of today is stocked almost exclusively with dirty, corrupt, lying, weasels.

Bargaining

[LeadSongDog]

Would you want the used car salesman to know what's in your bank account?

Re:Bargaining

[jjh37997]

Sure... as long as I can know the history and stats of all the cars he's trying to sell me.

Punish after conviction

[Blnky]

I have always taken the stance of: "If I have done nothing wrong why do I not deserve the right of privacy?"

Take it to the logical extreme

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about anyone else here, but you could take it to the logical extreme. "If you have nothing to hide, then you're undoubtedly okay with letting the government install cameras in your bedroom, or bathroom." That usually works well to quiet that argument....

lol at article

[CrazyJim1]

One of his arguments is: "Show me yours and I'll show you mine." I could just imagine someone saying this to a cop.

just ask...

[locust]

the jews. They had nothing to hide at all.

Re:just ask...

[Anonymous Coward]

And not too long afterwards they also had nowhere to hide.

Re:just ask...

[ScrewMaster]

Just ask the jews. They had nothing to hide at all.

And not too long afterwards they also had nowhere to hide.

I'm not Jewish, as it happens ... but those two lines ought to give anyone pause. Especially if you're in the "I've nothing to hide so I'm safe" camp.

Re:just ask...

[erroneus]

Indeed. I cannot agree more. When people people who make the rules, change the rules, ANYONE can be a criminal.

Re:just ask...

[ScrewMaster]

They don't need to change the rules any longer. They haven't had to for over a hundred years. So many human activities have been classified as criminal in our society the government (any government, Federal, State, local) can nail you any time they choose, if they want to make the effort. Just being targeted, even if you ultimately win in court (assuming you have your day in court) is punitive for most people, given the cost of justice today. If we ever want to return to something resembling a "free" country, we're going to have to toss out reams of law.

Truly a sad state of affairs. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if my comments here on Slashdot are eventually used against me in some way. A lot of us have posted stuff on this site that might be considered "subversive" in some context, particularly the anti-intellectual-property rants that pop up regularly.

new definition of "short essay"

[Gospodin]

It's a 23-page PDF. I read up to the table of contents and gave up.

Proper response?

[oskay]

"So why are you wearing clothes?"

Re:Proper response?

[SnowNinja]

So why are you wearing clothes? I'm not ;)

illegal vs ethical

[bluprint]

Off-hand, the main problem with that argument is that it assumes that legal behavior and ethical/moral behavior are exactly the same.

If the government is watching, they are obviously looking for anything they don't like. This could be generally illegal behavior, or behavior that is threatening to the continued operation of that institution.

In either case, if you accept monitoring because "you have nothing to hide" you assume that the standards of what should be allowed and whether the institution should continue to exist should rest with the government. To put it another way, you assume they have perfect judgement in regard to what should be happening in regard to monitored behavior of citizens.

So (for example), maybe the government should be overthrown (because it does some badness such that it deserves to be disolved). Obviously any existing government that needs to be overthrown isn't going to support that notion. By targeting the government's ability to monitor, we better allow for the possibility that a government that is no longer serving the needs of its people might get overthrown (I'm assuming, for the purposes of this example, that "being overthrown" is probably necessary on some regular basis).

Re:illegal vs ethical

[Mr. Underbridge]

Off-hand, the main problem with that argument is that it assumes that legal behavior and ethical/moral behavior are exactly the same.

You're still giving them too much credit. The argument also assumes that perfectly *legal, ethical and moral* behavior/characteristics could never be used to harm their owner. Counterexamples of things I wouldn't want my government/employer/friends/insurance to know about me that break no ethical, moral, or legal bounds:

The types of sex toys I use with my wife

Medical conditions I suffer from

The fact that I occasionally pick my nose

My affinity for Jane Austen movies

Whether I'm currently looking for a job

My love of midget porn

How often I masturbate

I could go on, but I think you get the point. ;)

whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

All attractive people *should* be legally required to stay naked on warm days because they have nothing to hide.

Re:whatever

[shaitand]

Contrary to what most homosexuals would have you believe, it is possible to both find male on male relations disgusting AND be confident in your own sexuality.

Personally, I couldn't care less about what others with hormone deficiencies do. But I don't especially enjoy seeing male forms clothed let alone nude. There are comparable views. A greasy pile of feces, slugs, cockroaches, etc. I'd rather not surround myself with these unappealing things.

Any power given to the good cops...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is given to the bad cops too.

The Useful Idiot

[Sitnalta]

Who says you have to be doing something illegal to be persecuted? So to answer the question "I've got nothing to hide" my response would be "Don't worry, they'll find something."

Cut the cutsie sayings

[loteck]

Here's a real cute 'saying', and it's the only one that matters:

"The right of the people to be secure in their person, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

In the US, this is the foundation of privacy. It is a mandate to those who govern from the people who allow them to govern. If you really need to ask why, your ignorance of history is so staggeringly complete that it can only be attributed to being negligently willful.

Re:Cut the cutsie sayings

[secPM_MS]

But this says nothing about monitoring a person's movements in public - where and when you go anywhere. Something that anybody in a public space can see is public. The lack of privacy in small towns is legendary - and not necesarily all bad. This issue is being framed as a governmental monitoring issue alone. This is an oversight. What if all the monitoring were publically available (say on the local cable network) so that you had to assume that everybody - the police, your family, your friends, and your minister could know where you went and what you did in public? Would that be better or worse? In some respects, that is what living in a small town still is. And a small town in Utah even more.

Re:Cut the cutsie sayings

[Anonymous Coward]

"The right of the people to be secure in their person, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

That's their loophole right there in bold face. They just continually dilute the definition of "unreasonable". Search warrents were to burdensome, so the patriot act gives us NSLs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Le tter) which require no judicial oversight. Similarly for wiretaps. If you question it, then you're the enemy. You support the terrorists. Which, of course, is now grounds to wiretap you as well.

The statements I've made in this post are probably more then enough to justify an NSL to my ISP & /. to figure out just who this AC really is. I clearly need to be watched.

My from-the-hip response to "nothing to hide"

[Todd Knarr]

My response to people who say "You've got nothing to hide, what's the problem?" is this:

Well then, you'll have no objection to having the transaction register of your checking account and credit cards published daily in the newspaper, will you. Nor a record of your phone calls, incoming and outgoing. Or having all your e-mail, personal as well as work, automatically copied to your boss, co-workers and spouse. After all, you've got nothing to hide, right?

It's not a matter of having nothing to hide. Even people with nothing to hide nonetheless have a lot of things that they don't want broadcast to the world. It's called one's personal business. A really good example is buying your wife an anniversary gift. There's absolutely nothing to hide there, but you still don't want her finding out about it until you give it to her. There's many things in life that're nothing to hide in the sense the "nothing to hide" crowd is using the phrase, but that nonetheless you want to keep private (at least from all but a selected few).

Privacy is dead. Get over it.

[mcrbids]

Privacy is dead. Get over it.

A famous quote by a powerful man. I don't think I need to cite source.

But it's true, and pretending otherwise is just more head-in-the-sand thinking. What's important is what we actually DO about it. How can we prevent the bad stuff with lack of privacy from happening? Nearly 10 years ago, an insightful author at then-amazing Wired answered this question in a way I've not seen matched or beaten anywhere else.

It's not the fact of being private or not, it's what's done about it and why. If we keep pretending we have something we don't, we'll be hurt by things we didn't know were there. We couldn't deal with slavery until we acknowledged that it existed and was a problem. A smoker in denial will remain a smoker until he/she can acknowledge his/her status as a smoker.

I, for one, find it far more effective to deal with what is than what I'd prefer there was to work on, and the reality is that privacy is dead.

Re:Privacy is dead. Get over it.

[NickFortune]

A famous quote by a powerful man. I don't think I need to cite source.

Why that's right. I expect everyone here knows that the quote is attributed to Scott McNealy, then CEO of Sun Microsystems. According to a reporter for Wired he was speaking at the launch of Sun's Jini technology in 1999. It's just that by saying so up front, you can avoid sounding like an insecure thirteen year old putting on a pose to try and hide the fact that he's too lazy to type three words into Google.

Again according to Wired, McNealy was commenting in response to Intel's recent U-turn regarding placing unique identifiers in each of their chips. So it more likely that McNealy's comment was self-serving, rather than indicative of his being a fount of Ethical Truth. Although in fairness, his comments do have a measure of truth in a networking context - you can't do much without leaving your IP behind you. But then again, this was also before the use of NAT gateways and dynamic IPs became quite so widespread, so even then, he doesn't have too much credibility.

Incidentally the correct quote would seem to be "you have zero privacy anyway, get over it". This at least is to McNealy's credit, since "privacy is dead" is a profoundly stupid thing to say. Privacy cannot be dead, because it was never alive. Privacy is some fragile, endangered creature that can be slain by a terrorist bomb, or by an uncaring government. Privacy is a courtesy we offer to one another. And if groups, be they government departments or struggling computer companies, should choose to withdraw this courtesy it is by their choice that they do so.

Nearly 10 years ago, an insightful author at then-amazing Wired answered this question

That would be David Brin, well known writer of science fiction. I suppose that when you say that, he loses some of the gravitas that might otherwise attach to "an insightful author". Perhaps that's why you shied away from citing Mr.McNealy as well.

That said, I have to admit that have some sympathy for Brin's views on this matter, at least as he went on to develop them in Earth. He seems to think that the problem with lack of privacy is not the lack itself, but the asymmetry of the arrangement. Various groups are allowed to know all they like about me, but I am not allowed to know anything about them. The trouble I have there is that I didn't find the picture of society in Earth particularly appealing, and I'm not at all convinced that it would work as advertised. It did make for an interesting novel, though.

I, for one, find it far more effective to deal with what is than what I'd prefer there was to work on, and the reality is that privacy is dead.

Well, I still don't think it's especially useful to anthropomorphise abstract concepts, especially ones founded in courtesy and dignity. On the other hand, if you really believe that, perhaps you'd like to show us the way forward. You could start by posting your real name, email address, age, racial background, social security number, marital status, any major illnesses, any history of family illness. Just for a start. I'm sure once we see well you fare in a post privacy world, we'll all be eager to join you.

Why does the government have something to hide?

[bigtrike]

If the government has not done any illegal spying on US citizens, why must the records remain sealed?

Re:Why does the government have something to hide?

[mkosmo]

The people are stupid. Why would you tell them anything?

Flip Side

[Cytlid]

I think the biggest argument *for* "I've got nothing to hide" is the fact that plenty of people will partake in illegal activity if they think noone is watching. I hate to say it, but I think it's a minor part of human nature.

I call it the halo effect. Watch it, next time your driving. People cut you off, don't use their turn signals, speed, basically drive like idiots. Place a patrol car in the mix, (in fact the second it comes into sight of any of the aforementioned asshole drivers) and suddenly, without warning, little halos appear over every car and everyone is just a cute little perfect driver doing what they're supposed to.

I love making the analogy of drivers to general society because it allows you to observe people acting privately in a public place. The isolation of the driver from everyone else (aka no real communication) gives this sense of "tunnel vision" where basically people drive as if they're the only ones on the road at all, and somehow the other cars are not really people but automatons just getting in the way.

So the major premise of the "I've got nothing to hide" crowd, is that plenty of people do, and the ones that squirm in their seats are usually the ones who just might ...

I'm all for privacy, and don't want too much of my rights eroded away, but honestly, I really don't have anything to hide. I think it's the level of monitoring or whatnot that scares people.

I didn't read the essay. But I can imagine the guy is outraged at people's nonchalance. "I've got nothing to hide" may generally be perceived as "I don't care", and that's what the author is most likely trying to avoid.

Give me the middle ground ... I do care if you monitor me too much, but I also do care if you do the things like drive like an asshole when you think noone is looking. With the proper checks and balances, neither side will get overconfident.

Re:Flip Side

[Red Flayer]

I think there are two parts to the "halo effect", and they likely operate in different proportions in different people. First is the fear of punishment -- most of the people you refer to do not feel that their actions are really wrong (or else they wouldn't do them) -- they fear the consequences of getting caught. The second is that the patrol car may remind them of their behavior, which they actually do feel is wrong, but "forgot" about that -- the external moral compass of the patrol car awakens their internal moral compass. You may observe this when the patrol car turns off, and a portion of the speeders do not resume their terrifying race.

Why is this relevant to privacy? Because among the people doing immoral things out there, some may come to the realization that their behavior is "wrong" in some sense because they are forced to come to terms with the risks of getting caught. In other words, some people are in denial about (or are just ignoring) the immorality of their actions.

All that said, I still believe invading somone's privacy is a piss-poor way to help them see their actions for what they are. Also, I think the people who respond in this fashion are a small minority; the fear of punishment is a much bigger motivator for most people to cease immoral actions.

One last comment on this topic, and it has to do with people who believe that moral codes are handed down from $AUTHORITY -- these are often the people who would act immorally if they were not told what action was moral or not. It's sad to say that most of our lawmakers, IMO, are of this breed -- which is why morality is legislated in the US.

Just follow them around recording them...

[TWX]

...and play back the tape on prime time TV. Or, just cut to the things that they really don't want, like picking wedgies, adjusting bra fitment, picking noses, kissing and getting touchy-feely, or parts where they did something mildly unethical, lewd, crass, rude, or some other behavior that would embarass them. Or just zoom in on women's low-cut tops and cleavage, or butts and "whale tail" thong sightings...

I guarantee that nearly everyone who saw such footage of themselves would be horrified beyond belief. When I was in high school I did a presentation on why video surveillance of innocent people was wrong. I hid a camera (which was very hard given the size of the average camcorder in 1995) in the classroom where it recorded, from a side vantage, my presentation and the class receiving the presentation unawares. I had the instructor's permission so that someone was aware of what I was doing. To underscore my point, to end my presentation I walked over, exposed the camera for the class, stopped the tape, took it out, and put it in the VCR, to play it for the class for a few minutes. The students, by and large, were irate. Even (maybe especially) those who were defending the position that surveillance was okay were mad. The principal received at least four telephone calls from angry parents, and several students complained quite angrily or tearfully to the teacher how what I did was wrong. There was no punitive action taken upon me (the Principal was very cool about some of this sort of thing), and the students learned a valuable lesson in privacy.

If you've got nothing to hide...

[ReverendLoki]

If you've got nothing to hide, then you won't mind taking off your clothes for me.

Don't know about how well it works in a realm of debate and discourse, but so far it hasn't gotten me anything but slapped in the singles bars.

Just because...

[lordvalrole]

you have nothing to hide doesn't mean something can't get used against you in the future. People who say that "they have nothing to hide" either they are lying or don't think about what they are saying. Laws can change and laws are different in every state, in every country, and in every situation. Just saying that you have nothing to hide doesn't mean that it can't be used against you 40 years from now. Take a look at celebs and politicians. People dig and dig until they find something that is controversial and that can be used against them even though they did it 10-20+ years ago.

I am sorry but the least people know about me the better. I don't want people knowing everything I do or don't do. I don't want the government to use whatever data mining they have gathered about me and use that later. We can't stop terrorists by data mining. We can't stop terrorism because it is abstract. Start taking away any more freedoms in America it will start pissing more people off and homebrew terrorism will start happening.

Unless we can make the government completely crystal clear and see exactly what they do behind closed doors...they aren't welcomed into mine.

Who knew that minority report could feel so real these days. Americans could care less about these topics. As long as they have American Idol and entertainment...they could care less about our government and our freedoms. One of the best quotes from a movie and it holds true today.

Gracchus: Fear and wonder, a powerful combination.
Gaius: You really think people are going to be seduced by that?
Gracchus: I think he knows what Rome is. Rome is the mob. Conjure magic for them and they'll be distracted. Take away their freedom and still they'll roar. The beating heart of Rome is not the marble of the senate, it's the sand of the coliseum. He'll bring them death - and they will love him for it.
-gladiator

Easy Answer:

[raehl]

Identity Theft. EVERYONE has something to hide. The fewer people that have access to your private information, the harder it is for people to steal from you.

The more people, even people working for the government, that have access to your information, the easier it is for you to be turned into a victim. And in the case of things like identity theft, the less you THINK you have to hide, the more attractive of a target you probably are. (Upstanding citizens probably have good credit to exploit.)

Re:Easy Answer:

[demachina]

"The fewer people that have access to your private information, the harder it is for people to steal from you."

True. The problem we have with identity theft, at least in the U.S., is the mechanism we use to identify ourselves dates to a 1936, a nine digit number which, when tied to your name opens nearly all doors to identity thieves. The key problem with it is it used to identify you which means you CAN'T keep it secret because you have to use it everytime you need to identify yourselves for employment, banks, credit cards and assorted other purposes. We got away with it back in the age where everything was on paper and moved from point A to point B by hand, and the paper was locked up in buildings, but in the computer and network age it is pure insanity that we still rely on this archaic system for identification. It is an engraved invitation for hackers to get rich, especially when combined with the online use of credit cards and banks. The staggering losses to identify theft are going to just continue to explode and amazingly no one is doing anything about it.

The solution is well known and wouldn't be that hard to implement. The social security administration urgently needs create a public key digital signature repository and allow people to go to a Social Security office, prove their identity and register their digital signature. Then everything which requires electornic identification needs to require a person use their digital signature and private key to prove their identity. If you don't create a digital signature then you continue with the current system and are extremely vulnerable to identity theft. If you have a digital signature then you have some confidence that when you bank, or use your credit card online that there is a system at work that doesn't date back to before the computer age. You could even go in and change your digital signature once in a while, something you can't easily do with your name and social security number.

It's not just the government

[FranTaylor]

The government outsources everything now. They (or one of the companies they hire) could collect up all of your email and web surfing logs and send it to credit agencies, insurance companies, even your employer.

What if you emailed your friend that you had a crummy day at work, and the next day, your employer waves a copy of it in your face and says "you're fired".

What if you surfed around looking for alternatives to your current insurance, and your carrier decides to drop you because you're not a loyal customer?

They could do it all in the name of 'maximizing shareholder value'.

Lame article ...

[Syncerus]

Well, I downloaded the PDF and waded my way through the turgid prose. The sad truth is that the subject is very interesting and timely. Unfortunately, the author really has nothing insightful to say on the subject. The 25 pages of text are clunky and directly focused on academic publication. He writes a great deal, but doesn't SAY anything. How can he say so little with so many words?

The only thing that I took from his publication is that he doesn't like the Bush Administration. That's fine with me; everyone is entitled to his own opinion. My problem is that this issue as such is far greater than any current administration. It's one of the fundamental questions about the relationship between the individual and the state, and deserves to be treated as an issue of profound significance.

If this is the best justification of our right to privacy, then we're in serious trouble.

Re:Lame article ...

[DerekLyons]

Well, I downloaded the PDF and waded my way through the turgid prose. The sad truth is that the subject is very interesting and timely. Unfortunately, the author really has nothing insightful to say on the subject. The 25 pages of text are clunky and directly focused on academic publication. He writes a great deal, but doesn't SAY anything. How can he say so little with so many words?

Precisely. The article summary claims that Solove's essay "exposes the faulty underpinnings of the "I have nothing to hide" arguement", for my money it singularly fails to do so. (Except in the context of the complex and opaque theoretical philosophical universe he creates in the paper.) He misses the point (to my mind) by a country mile - there are no 'underpinnings' to the argument. It is a (if I may borrow a term) Platonic arguement. He weakens how own case by diving off into the philosophical and theoretical rather than adressing the issue head on.
 
 

The only thing that I took from his publication is that he doesn't like the Bush Administration. That's fine with me; everyone is entitled to his own opinion. My problem is that this issue as such is far greater than any current administration. It's one of the fundamental questions about the relationship between the individual and the state, and deserves to be treated as an issue of profound significance.

Both Solove and Schneier have both allowed their political dogma to become the dominant force in their writings. You see the same thing here in many of the Slashdot replies - most of them hare off into tinfoil hat conspiracy land, and few analyzing the quality of the thinking. (Mostly because this kind of essay preaches to the Slashdot choir, largely an uncritical lot so long as you agree with the Hivemind.)

And the number one reason...

[rumblin'rabbit]

To articulate what you just said...

I consider the most important reason for privacy to be simple human dignity.

We all deserve a chance to live our lives with self-respect, and that is impossible when we cannot conduct our personal affairs with discretion. Being forced to disclose every detail of one's life is degrading to almost any human being.

Robert H. Jackson, RIP

[Tackhead]

> I'm in the minority because I like the Bush administration, but I do have to say that Ashcroft pissed me off when they imprisoned Tommy Chong. For the longest time anyone could buy drug paraphernalia in head shops. There was no law against it. Then suddenly Tommy Chong gets arrested ex post facto. They changed the interpretation of anti-drug laws on the fly so they imprisoned a man who did nothing illegal, and had no chance to stop doing it once they declared it illegal.

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens' What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, 1957

And for those who don't like Rand, how about this quote, from a guy who preceded Rand by 17 years, and just might have been qualified to have an opinion on jurisprudence, seeing as how it was his entire career and stuff.

"With the law books filled with a great assortment of crimes, a prosecutor stands a fair chance of finding at least a technical violation of some act on the part of almost anyone. In such a case, it is not a question of discovering the commission of a crime and then looking for the man who has committed it, it is a question of picking the man and then searching the law books, or putting investigators to work, to pin some offense on him."

- Robert H. Jackson, Attorney General (1940-1941), Supreme Court Justice (1948-1954), from a speech given in 1940

Technology driven ethics?

[ClosedSource]

If a right of privacy is obsolete because technology allows listening from a distance, than a right to life was made obsolete years ago because high-powered rifles can kill you from a distance.

It would be very foolish to abandon a right every time a technology makes it more difficult to protect.

Re:Technology driven ethics?

[jfclavette]

Like copyright ?

Re:Technology driven ethics?

[Dun Malg]

Like copyright ? Despite what the name may lead you to believe, copyright isn't a right, it's a restriction of rights.

Re:Technology driven ethics?

[mr_matticus]

No it's not. Copyright is for the creator (as, logically, it should be, since it's their private property and copyright is one of a number of tools designed to get people to share their property with society [not their contemporaries, but society itself, so immediate benefits are not meant to be realized]). It's a restriction (and a partial, temporary one) on the other half. All laws restrict someone from something. If they didn't, what would they accomplish?

Re:Technology driven ethics?

[mr_matticus]

Shakespeare had a tumultuous history with money. He died broke. In any case, artists in the classical sense sold their works once. Only the wealthiest of wealthy people could afford to commission them, and they were kept in private collections. Government got into the game in the 1700s to bring art to the people, by spreading the enormous cost of a custom piece of art across many people buying prints of it (or copies of a phonographic recording, or DVDs, or what have you). That system is largely successful, evidenced by the fact that you aren't apparently aware that original works by "legendary" artists cost the equivalent of millions (plural) of dollars in some cases (and that artists living today are often paid millions for their work as well--authors, actors, sculptors, painters, playwrights. Copyright protections allow for a "art co-op" to form so that normal people can enjoy it in their homes without spending more than they spent on their car (or possibly their home, in some cases).

You already get access to the work for dirt cheap. A DVD even at $50 would still be an insanely good deal to commissioning your own film, even with 300 of your best friends. Asking for lower prices is one thing, but asking to have it for free is just as greedy and immoral as the RIAA.

Re:It's hardly a "fallacy"

[moeinvt]

"Privacy is a responsibility... viewing it as a right only puts you at a disadvantage"

When we talk about our "Rights" in terms of those inalienable freedoms that our Constitutional Republic is founded on, we are specifically talking about prohibitions on the GOVERNMENT. Technology does not render our Rights "obsolete". Just because the government "can" spy on us doesn't mean that we have to give them permission to do it.

"Privacy" is my responsibility in the sense that I need to take certain precautions to protect things like my personal financial information, or trade secrets that I don't want to share with competitors. Privacy is my RIGHT, in the sense that I should NOT need to protect myself against unwarranted government snooping.

My take

[TheDarkener]

I've heard the "I have nothing to hide" response many times. Look at it from outside the box:

It all comes down to WHO has this information (and for what purposes). EXAMPLE: I, for one, have a big problem with public security cameras. Why? I really don't give a sh*t if everyone watches me walk/drive/ride my bike down the street. The problem I have is that EVERYBODY can't watch me, as I could them. A few "privileged" people can. That gives them a certain power over the general public, which is bad (IMHO).

But why? Who cares if some guy/gal can watch me and others can't? Well, the thing is, we're all human. We all have the same fallacies, including when we're given a certain amount of power over others, we tend to want to use it. Some might just laugh at people picking their nose at a stoplight, others might start noting when certain people go certain places. This creates a very dangerous situation. Certain people will have a lot of information about other peoples' lives, which makes me, anyway, very uncomfortable. What if I have an argument with someone in another car at a stoplight? What if that person is the security monitor's friend? What if that person asks the security monitor to find out where I go after 5:00pm every day, so he can meet me there to put a bullet in my head? That gives them unfair advantage, because I cannot do the same thing. They are monitoring my life, but I can't monitor theirs. It's unbalanced, and unfair.

I believe Google is a GOOD company. They collect information about EVERYONE and EVERYTHING available on the web and beyond - and they allow EVERYONE access to it, not just a few people who might get power trips and use the information to their advantage.

I have no problem with having cameras IN MY HOME, as long as EVERYONE ELSE does too, and it's all available online for anyone to view - no special privileges, no "Access denied", and let's take it a step further and allow you to see who's viewed your cam and at what time. That's not 1984, that's just using technology in a fair manner.

I also have a problem with Myspace and "Private" profiles. That is completely counter-productive for a social networking site. The point is to meet other people, find out about them, etc...but if their profile is set to private, you can't see but their default pic and their headline. That just makes other people want to retreat into "security" mode because it makes them think they should hide their information, too. Now, you don't have a social networking site - you have a bunch of people who have advantage over others, because they can see your info but you can't see theirs in exchange.

I have a Youtube profile (link in my sig). I upload vlogs about my personal beliefs, things in my life, etc. because I saw others who were open with themselves and felt like I could benefit from doing the same thing. And I did. I feel so good about being able to put myself up where ANYONE can see and hear me speak my mind - it's made me a much stronger (and open) person. It creates a stronger community, based on openness and equal power over information. I can watch other peoples' vlogs/videos, and see what kind of person they are too. I've made many friends over YT, and I encourage everyone here to consider vlogging.

Now if YT made people start paying for the privilege of uploading videos, that creates separation too. Not everyone has 20 bucks (or even 5 bucks) a month to spend on something like vlogging. It would allow a certain subset of "privileged" folks to express themselves, and others not. That's bad.

It's the same with software. We *all* know open-sourced software is good because it allows anyone to see how it ticks, and modify it for themselves. But take what Microsoft did with the BSD TCP/IP stack (under the BSD license) - they took the code for free, and made billions off of it, giving nothing back (AFAIK). It creates imbalance, and imbalance is bad.

You give what you take, and that makes the world thrive.

Re:It's hardly a "fallacy"

[UncleTogie]

When high-powered directional mics can discern from half a mile away conversations held inside unshielded brick buildings, is it your right to prohibit interception of your leaked signals?
Depends... Is WiFi theft illegal in many areas? Why?

Third definition

[phorm]

Actually, the third one is a good point. There are a lot of abuses of personal information, and the more that is available the more abuses there will be:

Because you might do something wrong with my information.

All the companies that "lose" your credit card info and others seem to get slaps on the wrist. Having your credit ruined can ruin your life. Now how about if somebody gets access to your more personal info. Suddenly you're an even better target for stalking, extortion, and more. *NOT* good.

Even if the government wasn't going to abuse this information (and they will), security leaks and hacking would lead to it being available to those that would have no problem abusing it.

Privacy and the Bush Administration

[RNLockwood]

So, let's see if I understand the privacy argument. One don't deserve privacy if one has something to hide and one shouldn't care about loss of privacy if one has nothing to hide. Is that right?

Therefor the Bush Administration's refusal to allow staffers to testify to congress regarding the Justice Department purge proves that they do have something to hide.

I have nothing to hide if ...

[wytcld]

I have nothing to hide if every member and employee of the government is entirely faithful to the laws and to reasonable ethical norms, and would never abuse the powers of justice for political ends. Given the recent thorough abuse of the Department of Justice for political ends, coupled with my reasonable belief that high members of our current government most likely are literally guilty of treason, and will be without restraint in avoiding just consequences for their treasons ... yeah, I have nothing to hide. There's no reason they would accuse anyone politically like me of "siding with the terrorists" now, is there?

Re:It's hardly a "fallacy"

[miskatonic alumnus]

The entire concept of privacy is based around concealing "wrongs"

Like fucking, for instance. Everyone knows that fucking is wrong, yet we keep doing it. We damned sure don't want our children to know about fucking; and we do what we can to conceal it from them. We ought to plant cameras in everyone's homes to make sure that they don't fuck. All these fucking people should be shot --- evil, sinning bastards.

There's a difference

[Dancindan84]

There's a difference between having nothing to hide and having nothing illegal to hide. I'm a fairly law abiding citizen, but there's still legal things I do that I don't want people to know about. Should the government be able to subpoena my cable company to find out I watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer?... I hope not.

Quite simple: Who said laws stay the same?

[Opportunist]

You have nothing to hide. Yet. You sure that your sexual preference will be legal forever? Are you sure that the information you're freely sharing with your friends has not been patented and thus you're infringing? Can you be certain that laws won't change and suddenly what you've been doing forever is suddenly "illegal"?

Find out their hobby and start constructing around it.

They like fishing? So, are you sure your lure isn't found to be "cruel to animals", or that the sink you use isn't going to be seen as environmentally threatening? Or that fishing isn't outlawed altogether because your enjoyment doesn't matter concerning how cruel it is to the fish?

It's model trains? Say, are you aware that the information you love to download about those tracks belong to the company that made them, and that they can come after you for infringing their copyright? And the buildings you use for your almost-like-real miniature towns, they look incredibly well suited as a three dimensional map for a terror attack. You sure that "model train club" isn't just a front?

They're into traveling? So you don't mind the feds to know where you go, that's fine... but you're aware that the political climate can change in many parts of this world quickly, right? Say, you traveled a lot to Gernericstan, and they just recently turned into another Afghanistan... care to tell us what exactly you did every time you went there?

At the very least the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" attitude can get you into a lot of unpleasant situations. Laws change, and not to the "better". They're more and more constricting, less and less freedom to do what you please is left, and sooner or later there will be a law that makes you a target, because what you used to do is suddenly very illegal. Smoking is on the verge of being outlawed in some countries. Would you like to be known as a heavy smoker? It's quite addictive, so the feds will KNOW that you don't simply quit, or that it's very, very hard to. They will want to watch you, just in case you fall back into your old habit.

And this can happen in many ways. Nobody just lives to work, people have their pastimes and hobbies. It can happen that your hobby is suddenly outlawed.

And, just to get Godwin into this posting somehow, the first (that I know about) to come up with the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" spin was Joseph Goebbels. If you don't know the guy, look him up. And ponder for a moment what this means.

If complete surveillance is in place, there is no chance to overthrow an oppressive regime. Any kind of dissent will be immediately identified and eliminated. By allowing it to happen, you throw yourself to the whims of the state. Essentially, you're giving up your liberty. If you trust your country and your government, most of all, if you trust it not to change in a way you wouldn't enjoy, it's no problem.

For me it is a problem. I cannot predict the future.

Re:It's hardly a "fallacy"

[fastest fascist]

Technology does not render our Rights "obsolete". Just because the government "can" spy on us doesn't mean that we have to give them permission to do it. No, but do you expect them to stop doing it if you ask them to? Our societies are very much hierarchical, we DO have a clear ruling class, and they do things as they please. Your chances at having privacy are directly dictated by your ability to make it difficult or impossible to watch your actions. Governments can't be trusted not to use technology available to them - they have well-established branches whose very job is precisely to conduct surveillance in secret, and if you think the distinction between foreign and domestic threats to their power makes any difference to them, think a bit harder.

Re:Bogus

[fyngyrz]

He explains privacy well

No, he really doesn't. He doesn't even understand it. For instance, he says "If you shove me, you are not leaving me alone. You may be harming me, but it is not a problem of privacy." It is a problem of privacy; one person's right to shove another is strictly limited by the idea of permission, that is, the existence of an inherent boundary, and the permission - or lack thereof - to cross that boundary. This is the same concept as putting a letter in an envelope. There is an inherent boundary there, and you do not have permission to cross it. These boundaries, existing in many social, legal, financial and physical circumstances, are all direct manifestations of privacy. The constitution brings the concept to the table in unflinching fashion: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures." There it is again. Boundaries. Personal, property, records, possessions. Privacy is a facet of liberty; the real problem here is that as far as the government concerned, liberty is just a quaint old word and the constitution an annoyance at most.

In hiding

[fm6]

At the base of the fallacy, as Bruce Schneier has noted, is the "faulty premise that privacy is about hiding a wrong."

Or put it another way: locking the bathroom door is not an admission of guilt!

Another way to circumvent protected privacy

[AltEnergy_try_Sunrei]

A very recent example from CNN. Doctors apparently do not break the patients privacy when they remain anonymous: "The prognosis is not good and he is not likely to survive," a member of the medical team that treated him at the Royal Alexandra Hospital near Glasgow said on condition of anonymity because details about patients' condition are not to be made public." This is of course the media twisting the patients right to privacy...

Re:Wired: Emaculate Election

[nschubach]

... if that is true... God's got a wicked sense of humor...

God made Woman, right? I'd say that's about as wicked as someone could get.

This article is embarassing

[The Only Druid]

The article makes a simple, fundamental pair of mistakes that renders it pointless and redundant: (a) there is a difference between complaining about the transparency of so-called invasions of privacy and complaining about the actual invasions (he does only the former); and (b) there is a difference between keeping information private from the government as opposed to keeping it private from private individuals.

By neglecting these points, he just engages in intellectual puffery. He hasn't argued at all against the "I have nothing to hide" argument, because he hasn't even addressed it. Chicanery.

Geese ... Gander

[brian_d_w]

Shouldn't the same logic apply to the government? Why is it ok for the feds to make everything secret? They must be doing illegal things to justify their instance on secrecy for official proceedings. If I have no right to privacy, why do they?

Re:It's hardly a "fallacy"

[harrkev]

I wish I had mod points right now. Someone mod parent Insightful, please?

OK. I just did.

Things get simpler

[hey!]

if you have a definition of privacy. But the definition of privacy is very, very tricky. In practice, privacy gathers together a wide variety of things that seem to be connected, but no in an obvious way.

It could be people listening in on your phone calls.

It could be people working to ruin your reputation or to spoil a relationship you have with somebody, by selectively chosen but roughly true stories (false light).

It could be somebody secretly watching you.

It could be somebody openly dogging you as you go from public place to public place.

It could be somebody looking over your shoulder as you conduct a bank transaction.

It could be your neighbor's spotlight shining in your bedroom window at 3AM.

It could be somebody failing to uphold a responsibility they have to treat information they hold about you in confidence.

After years of thinking about this, I have come to this conclusion: all these things are in one way or another crimes against autonomy. Even the neighbor's spotlight it a crime against your right to direct your own attention. As a result, I came up with this definition (which I describe further in a blog entry):

Privacy is the right of an individual or group to be free from unreasonable interference in the conduct of their affairs or in their thoughts.

This covers an important point: privacy is not just about being "left alone". It is about being able to engage with others without third parties (like the government, your boss, or your next door neighbor) sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong.

So, the idea behind "You have nothing to hide" is really much, much more sinister than it sounds. It implies, in effect, that you are nobody, at least when it comes to making decisions for yourself. It is not for anybody else to decide what you should or should not hide.

Re:It's hardly a "fallacy"

[dgatwood]

The entire concept of privacy is based around concealing "wrongs"; that is to say, keeping from public view what would be embarrassing, damaging or otherwise socially unacceptable.

If this were not so, there would be no need for privacy.

What's the URL to the webcam in your bathroom? Oh, yeah. That lecherous 80-year-old down the street called. He'd like your teenage daughter's school schedule. If you don't want telemarketers calling you at three in the morning, then why did you buy a telephone? Oh, and would you please email your updated bank account information to i0wn3djoo@myreallysleazybusiness.com; they can't seem to get at your bank account since you changed the account number. By the way, you can't work here because you have a history of carpal tunnel syndrome; I downloaded your medical records from the Internet. Oh, and I borrowed your car. I took the liberty of writing down the code number and making my own set of keys. Hope you don't mind me having that number.

Yes, some of those things you can protect yourself, but it is often necessary to provide that information to other people. Your babysitter might need your daughter's schedule to know when to pick her up. You might have to give out your phone number so others can reach you. (You do have friends, right?) You might need to give the bank account number for direct deposit of your paycheck. You might need to release your medical history to an insurance company or to another doctor when your previous doctor retires. You might even need to give that code number to the car dealer because you lost a set of car keys.

We can't always control our private information, and it is for that reason that we have privacy laws---not to be a complete safeguard against people stupidly failing to protect their private information, but to provide reasonable limitations on businesses and government when that information must be provided to them for some legitimate purpose. To claim that privacy laws are no longer useful is naive even for a Slashdot troll.

Best.Essay.Ever on the value of privacy

[geekotourist]

What I think is the Best Essay Ever on Privacy comes from the former privacy commissioner of Canada. In his 2003 overview to his privacy report to Canada he writes why privacy is a fundamental human right, and he warns Canada not to give away rights now eroded or gone in the U.S., especially if it's at the U.S. government's request. It's a short sharp essay, well-worth the reading.

Sad part is that 4 years on Canadians have been forced to adopt what he warned about, and the US has gotten worse. Thing about the proverbial frog in the stovetop bath is that everyone thinks that if you know about the frog in the pot, you can't possibly be the frog in the pot.

A few extracts:
"In the months immediately following September 11, I was in fact quite optimistic that, with regard to privacy, the Government was on the whole being balanced and thoughtful in its response. But now the floodgates appear to have burst. Now "September 11" is invoked as a kind of magic incantation to stifle debate, disparage critical analysis and persuade us that we live in a suddenly new world where the old rules cannot apply. If Parliament and the public at large have been slow to react, it is probably because for most people, most of the time, privacy is a pretty abstract concept. Like our health, it's something we tend not to think about until we lose it - and then discover that our lives have been very unpleasantly, and perhaps irretrievably, altered. But though we tend to take it for granted, privacy - the right to control access to ourselves and to personal information about us - is at the very core of our lives. It is a fundamental human right precisely because it is an innate human need, an essential condition of our freedom, our dignity and our sense of well-being.

"The truth is that we all do have something to hide, not because it's criminal or even shameful, but simply because it's private. We carefully calibrate what we reveal about ourselves to others. Most of us are only willing to have a few things known about us by a stranger, more by an acquaintance, and the most by a very close friend or a romantic partner. The right not to be known against our will - indeed, the right to be anonymous except when we choose to identify ourselves - is at the very core of human dignity, autonomy and freedom.

..If we allow the state to sweep away the normal walls of privacy that protect the details of our lives, we will consign ourselves psychologically to living in a fishbowl. Even if we suffered no other specific harm as a result, that alone would profoundly change how we feel. Anyone who has lived in a totalitarian society can attest that what often felt most oppressive was precisely the lack of privacy.

But there also will be tangible, specific harm. [..Examples given...]

If information that is actually about someone else is wrongly applied to us, if wrong facts make it appear that we've done things we haven't, if perfectly innocent behavior is misinterpreted... we will be at risk of finding ourselves in trouble in a society where everyone is regarded as a suspect. By the time we clear our names and establish our innocence, we may have suffered irreparable financial or social harm...If we have to live our lives weighing every action, every communication, every human contact, wondering what agents of the state might find out about it, analyze it, judge it, possibly misconstrue it, and somehow use it to our detriment, we are not truly free..."

" One of the clearest lessons of history is that the greatest threats to liberty come not when times are tranquil and all is well, but in times of turmoil, when fidelity to values and principle seems an extravagance we can ill afford. History also teaches us that whenever we have given in to that kind of thinking, we have lived to regret it. At the time, the loss of freedom might seem small, trivial even, when place

Everyone has something to hide

[maspatra]

Seriously, everyone has something to hide. Even if you don't think you do, you do.

As TFA says, maybe that something isn't something illegal, per se. But who out there doesn't have something personal and private about their lives that they would be upset or embarrassed if it was known to the public at large, or even just a few random strangers? I don't think I've ever committed any crime in my life worse than jaywalking and I still don't want other people reading my email or listening in on my phone conversations; it's none of their goddamn business. Show me someone that's comfortable with anything and everything about their lives being aired to the public and I'll show you someone with serious psychological issues.

This more than anything else is why privacy laws are so important--in fact I'd go as far to say that if that means that some people pull off crimes or whatever that they might not have gotten away with sans privacy, that's just the price to pay. I'd be willing to take the chance that something awful might happen to me or a loved one because quite frankly, without privacy life would suck.

sexual offender registry

[falconwolf]

See how you feel if you imagine they put your name on such a list.

A few year back or so this teenager was put on a sexual offender registry in, I believe it was Gainsville, FL, something about him "exposing himself indecently" or some such and because the hassazment he went through he eventually killed himself.

The constitution offers the means to make changes; but this is not convenient enough, and so we are faced on all sides with unconstitutional law, and told that it'll all be worked out in court if necessary, and in the meantime, comply or face the music.

Ah but a couple of those methods used in court, Fully Informed Jury and jury nullification, the courts try to prevent. Even though they were used by Founding Fathers of the USA. Jurors are told they can't look up or investigate themself and if they do they can be disqualified from the jury. And judges tell jurors they must just make a ruling on the facts of the case, they're not supposed to decide if a law is unconstitutional nor are they able to follow their conciousness. Personally I've been called for jury duty twice, hoping to get selected as a juror for a drug trial, so I could vote "not guilty" saying drug laws are unconstitutional. However neither tyme was I even called up for questioning.

Falcon

parable from usenet 1993

[Flunitrazepam]

Newsgroups: alt.privacy.clipper,sci.crypt
Subject: A Parable.
References: <1993Apr20.013747.4122@cs.sfu.ca> <1993Apr21.210353.15305@microsoft.com>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Partnership for an America Free Drug

scottmi@microsoft.com (Scott Miller (TechCom)) writes:
>Stikes me that all this concern over the government's ability
>to eavesdrop is a little overblown... what can't they do today?
>My understanding is that they already can tap, listen, get access
>exc. to our phone lines, bank records, etc. etc again.

Well, they can't listen in on much of mine, since I already use
cryptography for much of my electronic mail, and will start using it
for my telephony as soon as practical.

However, allow me to tell a parable.

There was once a far away land called Ruritania, and in Ruritania
there was a strange phenonmenon -- all the trees that grew in
Ruritainia were transparent. Now, in the days when people had lived in
mud huts, this had not been a problem, but now high-tech wood
technology had been developed, and in the new age of wood, everyone in
Ruritania found that their homes were all 100% see through. Now, until
this point, no one ever thought of allowing the police to spy on
someone's home, but the new technology made this tempting. This being
a civilized country, however, warrants were required to use binoculars
and watch someone in their home. The police, taking advantage of this,
would get warrants to use binoculars and peer in to see what was going
on. Occassionally, they would use binoculars without a warrant, but
everyone pretended that this didn't happen.

One day, a smart man invented paint -- and if you painted your house,
suddenly the police couldn't watch all your actions at will. Things
would go back to the way they were in the old age -- completely
private.

Indignant, the state decided to try to require that all homes have
video cameras installed in every nook and cranny. "After all", they
said, "with this new development crime could run rampant. Installing
video cameras doesn't mean that the police get any new capability --
they are just keeping the old one."

A wise man pointed out that citizens were not obligated to make the
lives of the police easy, that the police had survived all through the
mud hut age without being able to watch the citizens at will, and that
Ruritania was a civilized country where not everything that was
expedient was permitted. For instance, in a neighboring country, it
had been discovered that torture was an extremely effective way to
solve crimes. Ruritania had banned this practice in spite of its
expedience. Indeed, "why have warrants at all", he asked, "if we are
interested only in expedience?"

A famous paint technologist, Dorothy Quisling, intervened however. She
noted that people might take photographs of children masturbating
should the new paint technology be widely deployed without safeguards,
and the law was passed.

Soon it was discovered that some citizens would cover their mouths
while speaking to each other, thus preventing the police from reading
their lips through the video cameras. This had to be prevented, the
police said. After all, it was preventing them from conducting their
lawful surveilance. The wise man pointed out that the police had never
before been allowed to listen in on people's homes, but Dorothy
Quisling pointed out that people might use this new invention of
covering their mouths with veils to discuss the kidnapping and
mutilation of children. No one in the legislature wanted to be accused
of being in favor of mutilating children, but then again, no one
wanted to interfere in people's rights to wear what they liked, so a
compromise was reached whereby all homes were installed with
microphones in each room to accompany the video cameras. The wise man
lamented few if any child mutilations had ever been solv

"God's" work?

[falconwolf]

I honestly do disagree. While many of his underlings don't share his beliefs, Bush is a zealot who really does think he's doing God's work. His religious convictions can't really legitimately be called "Christian", except in the term's broadest sense, but he thinks every bomb he has dropped, every bullet he has fired, is part of a pure and noble cause.

Whatever happened to "Thou shalt not kill"? Many more have been killed under Bush's orders than all of those killed from bin Ladin's orders. And didn't he stand up in front of the world claiming Saddam had WMDs? Despite waiting I have yet to see the first WMD.

Falcon

Have you ever played that game...

[element-o.p.]

...where you take what someone says, apply their words to a slightly different context, then make something that was said in innocence into something that is socially embarrassing? I've played both sides of that game from the time I was a teenager, and when you are just goofing off with friends, it's all in fun. Someone turns red and gets flustered, then everything they say to clear up what they really meant only digs the hole deeper.

We've all played that game, and we all know how easy it can be to string someone up with their own words when the context has been subtlety altered. Now imagine that it's not your friends trying to embarrass you for fun, but it's a prosecutor and he's trying to send you to the deepest, darkest hole he can find. What you said and what you did that got recorded in some computer database may be perfectly innocent, but that doesn't mean someone sufficiently motivated -- or paranoid -- can't twist your actions into something that appears very sinister to twelve of your peers. *That's* why privacy is important.

Give me six lines in a man's own hand ...

[TapestryDude]

... and I can have that man executed for treason. I can't remember where this quote comes from, but the gist is that if you set out to prove someone guilty, and your system has no proper checks and balances (fifth amendment, habeas corpus, etc.) then it's quite easy. We saw this happen with the Starr investigation of Clinton: every roadblock that indicated a lack of wrongdoing was interpreted as an ever greater conspiracy and ever greater guilt. Remember that amenesty international was started around a case of two men simply toasting "to freedom"; they were imprisoned for treason.

Re:Give me six lines in a man's own hand ...

[TapestryDude]

Found the quote:

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if_you_give_me_six _lines_written_by_the_hand_of/188939.html

Re:Give me six lines in a man's own hand ...

[timmarhy]

"We saw this happen with the Starr investigation of Clinton: every roadblock that indicated a lack of wrongdoing was interpreted as an ever greater conspiracy and ever greater guilt"

OH FUCKING GIVE ME A BREAK! Clinton was guilty as hell and you know it. hence all the road blocking. that's a really poor example as it deals with white house interference in the exact checks and balances you talk about

The Best Privacy Test.....

[IHC Navistar]

Being a Republican, I believe in a smaller government, and outright REFUSE to let someone compromise my rights to life, liberty, privacy, property, and pursuit of happiness. However, their are SOME "Republicans" who tend to think that being a Republican means a bigger Big Brother, and are starting to act in complete contradiction to what it truly means to be a Republican. Bush is a PRIME example.

SO, whenever someone counters my 'right to privacy' argument with "Well, what do YOU have to hide?", I always say:

"Absolutely nothing. Just because I don't want someone knowing everything about me and my habits doesn't mean that I have anything to hide.". Then I ask, "I'd like to look through your credit card statements, FasTrack statements, telephone records, bank records, internet records, computer hard drive, your house, your dresser, and the dog house. Will you let me?"

The response has ALWAYS been "No way. Why should I?"

To which I reply, "Well, what do YOU have to hide?"

I always get an irritated look after the final line. But it proves a point: Just because someone doesn't want you snooping through their life doesn't mean that they are hiding things.

It's the people doing the snooping that have things to hide.

The best Response of All

[mombodog]

"I have nothing to Hide, but Everything to Protect"

Big Brother loves you...

[Dragoon235]

The Thought Police only arrest those devious perpetrators of thoughtcrime. Therefore you have nothing to worry about. Those guilty of thoughtcrime will be rehabilitated in room 101.

Doubleplusgood duckspeaking:

        * WAR IS PEACE
        * FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
        * IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

And now for something completely different: Big brother comedy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYQKDqjCEBQ

Every bit collected makes you closer to jail

[MikePlacid]

You are missing one point I think. US has a precedent-based court system. So a law on the book need not be changed to make you a criminal overnight. Just a new case can be tried in your local court and "clarify" a statute a bit.

Actually I am amazed how anyone can say that he/she is doing nothing wrong. To state such a thing you should:

1. Know all the facts. There are statutory crimes. Prosecution does not need to prove that you knew that a girl you've privately written in your diary about - is age of consent minus one day old. If she is - you are guilty. No such thing as "she said she is 21" is relevant.
2. Know all law in the book. Finished law school already? Do you know how many paragraphs are in your state's Vehicle Code? Make a guess. Then check. Got it? Look at this one - it was not RETROACTIVELY changed. It is there from 1888...
3. Research all interpretation of the law given by the courts. Do you own any money to the state of Califronia? I am not talking about people not paying California sale taxes while shopping on Internet. They know they have something to hide. No mercy for them. Not here. But let's suppose you are doing consulting work via your own company in Connecticut. Strictly in Connecticut. Do you own CA taxes? Law on the book says: only if you are doing business in California. Problem is - court decisions have already clarified this "doing business" extensively. You can't just read the statute and say: nothing to hide, no taxes past due. Suppose collected data says: you transferred in LAX on the trip to Hawaii and used your laptop to pay your company bill. Paying your company bill has already been clarified as "doing business" by some court decision. You were on CA soil while doing business in 2002 - you owe this state $800 tax plus $700 fee for non-filing in time. Regardless of your company profits. And next year too - it's easy to start doing business in the Golden state, but to terminate you need to pay money and file proper paperwork. Not filed? that's five years in taxes not paid. (I am a bit exagerating here, but based on my own real life experience).

And, if such a case law clarification what "doing business" means is made after your data is recorded - it is NOT A RETROACTIVE change. It's just a clarification...

Basically, you should hire a lawyer just to answer this question: have you done anything wrong. 10 lawyers, even better. And they will not give you a definite answer. They will spent a year (at least) to study you monthly activity and research applicable case law. And you will get an estimate: you will be acquitted with 0.99999 probability. Based on the facts presented. Have you missed something? Are you sure this girl was 21? Have you mentioned that bill paid while in the airport?

Well, OK. Five nines. Good enough? But next month is also collected. Probability goes to square of five nines that is 0.99998. Then next month is also collected... Got the picture?

Every bit collected by the government gets you one step closer to jail. Yes, you. Never volunteer any information.

(excuse my English)

Re:Every bit collected makes you closer to jail

[computational super]

Are you sure this girl was 21?

Although you make some valid points, remember your audience - you're talking to Slashdot here. If there haven't been any, it's easy to be sure of their ages.

Finally Someone Said It

[sherriw]

Every time I express indignation about the latest blow to our privacy by the US and/or Canadian government, nearly ALL my friends and family have that exact argument: "I'm not worried about it, I have nothing to hide."

It drives me crazy because it's NOT about whether you have some dirty little secret you want to hide. It's about freedom. That's what privacy really is. Freedom that we are supposed to be guaranteed under the Charter/Bill of Rights.

Given the track records of both the Canadian and American governments, do you really trust them with the power that this information gives them over your lives? It's not just about terrorists. In Canada, the health care system is publicly funded. So, what happens if data mining turns up some unhealthy habits- like say you order takeout every night, or that you engage in dangerous sports.

How many people make minor upgrades to their house or property without the proper permits? Underage drinking, failing to file 100% of your online or out of state/country purchases on your tax return, etc. Most people do some kind of softly-illegal thing that the government would love to know about. And since the MPAA has the government wrapped around their finger, how about they peak into your life too.

It may seem paranoid to list these things- but forget for a minute that the government can be corrupt sometimes. Imagine we have a perfect government. You still don't want them knowing everything about you- for the same reason that you don't live in a house with glass walls, and for the same reason you don't want your portable phone being picked up by your neighbour's baby-monitor. Privacy is important and precious. It deserves more than the apathetic attitude of "I have nothing to hide"... because anyone who says that is a fool or a liar.

It has probably been said...

[gorfie]

I think it's highly obvious. Let's say you break no laws at all... ever. You go the speed limit, you pay your taxes, you buy all of your music / movies, and you never jaywalk. So you have no problem if a governing authority has complete knowledge of everything you do. Some may argue that you might pick your nose and someone would know, but the obvious retort is that there is so much data that no individual would know unless you did something wrong. Everythings's fine and dandy.

Fast forward 10 years later. The government has full access to your life - cameras everywhere, you have a tracking mechanism embedded in your arm, all your actions are logged, etc.. It has been this way for years. Now the government starts to limit your freedoms further to ensure your safety/wellbeing and the safety/wellbeing of your fellow citizens. You MUST brush your teeth three times a day. You can't consume salt, suger, alcohol, or red meat. You can't have more than one child. You and your family MUST attend government mandated education sessions from 6:00pm to 7:00pm every night - after you work your government mandated 9 hour shift doing what the government deems you are best at. The government has made so many laws that you are guaranteed to be breaking some law - and the government knows and they arrest you for it at their convenience.

This is an illustration of why we need to protect our privacy. You might have nothing to fear now, but if you give the government too much power you might not be able to stop them once you have something to fear. Or something like that...

If the government has nothing to hide...

[Yfrwlf]

...shouldn't we be able to spy on it too?

Isn't this just the logical result, anyway?

[argStyopa]

My question is, isn't the whole 'government intrusiveness' issue a logical result of the nanny state?

I mean, to put it in more pedestrian terms: if I can't make my house payment (or food, or car lease, or whatever) and so I have to beg you for money to keep me going, don't you logically have a vested interest in my activities? If you're lending me $ so my kids can eat, but then you see me drinking a beer and smoking a cigarette (or having a satellite dish installed), aren't you justifiably going to be a little pissed off?

Every time we hand power over the daily conduct of our lives to the government, we EMPOWER them to surveil, intrude, and legislate our activities. If we ask the government to ban smoking, we SIMULTANEOUSLY are asking the government to keep an eye in every public space to make sure there's no smoking.

To extrapolate further (and onto thinner ice, I'm well aware), if we hand over the complete responsibility for our personal safety to the government (say, by banning personal firearms), aren't we simultaneously giving them a perfect justification for watching us at every moment, so as to keep us safe?

Since the New Deal, we've had a populace which has WELCOMED government involvement in everything: who you can hire, who you can fire, where you can smoke, what you can smoke ... many of the rules made for the best of reasons. But the Founding Fathers (whom I respect for their foresight more every year) anticipated this, and laid out a government whose powers were STRICTLY circumscribed to a fairly small number of responsibilities. Sadly, Roosevelt's "Good Intentions" paved right over those limits while building the road to the current situation.

Slashdotters love to quote the old saying "People who give up an essential liberty for a little security deserve neither" when talking about the Bush Administration's efforts against global terrorism. What they don't seem to realize is that SAME aphorism applies to their government-backed college loan, or the laws that prevent employers firing them because they're gay. Personally, I don't think many of the people 'demanding' liberty could really handle the consequences of liberty for everyone - read Second Life's "The War of the Jessie Wall" (http://secondlife.com/notes/2003_07_07_archive.ph p) (Parts 1-5) & http://secondlife.com/notes/2003_07_14_archive.php ) (Parts 6-10). It's an eye-opening illustration of what happens when utopian ideals of freedom are applied generally, unfortunately Linden Labs chose to play God instead of seeing how this would eventually resolve itself.

Simply put: We can't have our cake and eat it, too. If you want to get rid of the overreaching Federal government sticking its nose into everything, then you have to also get rid of the Federal government that requires handicapped access, enforces affirmative action, supplies welfare, medicaid, and (allegedly administers) social security, sets educational & medical standards, and whole host of other things that people consider beneficial because they are in fact two sides of the same coin.

Better way:

[freeweed]

No, you pull down THEIR pants.

This whole question to me can be summed up in a single 15 minute debate I had in an ethics class years ago. One of the (female) students was arguing that surveillance cameras all over public places were a very good thing, because they could help prevent (or at least prosecute) rape/assault.

When I pointed out to her that she is many more times as likely to be assaulted/raped by her boyfriend/husband, and then asked her if it wouldn't make more sense to put a camera in her bedroom. I then asked if we should have the police monitoring her daughter 24/7, especially in their beds and in the bathroom, because again, they're far more likely to be abused by a family member (and in such private places as that) ... at this point she stopped arguing.

"Mistake" vs. "Malice"

[The Angry Mick]

One of the biggest problems I have with the idea of "total" enforcement via total surveillance is that there is no distinction made between actions that are minor, or mistakes, and actions that are unadulterated acts of malice.

How many times in life have we done something that we later learned was against the law? Jaywalking; making a right on red when a sign says not to; parking outside the posted acceptable hours; ignoring the crosswalk lights; changing lanes without a signal; going five miles an hour over the speed limit; spitting on the sidewalk; playing a radio too loud; protesting outside of a "free speech zone"; wearing white after Labor day?

All of these are minor infractions and, in most cases, not worthy of police attention. Under a total surveillance society, all of these will become punishable events that can stay on an individual's record. The lists of "known criminals" will increase, along with the reasons for government to exclude someone's participation in Democracy. Employer's will deny jobs, or reduce wages, to those with long lists of minor offenses. Insurance companies will deny coverage, or will drastically increase rates to known "criminal risks".

Total surveillance is not Democracy; it is closer to KGB. And for something like this to come from a country that hated communism with the white heat of a holy crusade, is a sad irony indeed.

Preaching to the choir...

[PAH_III]

Seems like the slashdot community is all in agreement on this one. But I have another approach to offer that I think everyone here can appreciate: What if I'm in the middle of developing the next big thing (sliced bread, fire, the wheel, iPhone:-P)? Then I absolutely want to protect my privacy from others who would steal it and call it their own (especially the gov't). You're damn right I'd have something to hide, and it wouldn't have to mean that what I'm hiding is illegal.

A democracy that was "created" by guns

[benhocking]

First off, a disclaimer: I don't own a gun, I don't hunt, and I'm even a vegetarian.

Guns kill people, they don't create democracies. One should think you people (Americans) had learned that by now...

One thing you need to understand about Americans is that our democracy was largely created by guns. We wouldn't have had a democracy in the 18th century if it hadn't been for our guns.

If the government has to be removed with guns you already live in a dictatorship.

Absolutely. But if you're not allowed to have guns when living in a democracy, then how are you going to get the guns to overthrow that dictatorship if/when it comes?

I'm not saying the gun argument is completely valid (we would need the support of at least some of the military as well if it came to overthrowing the government) - I'm just pointing out that it's not as invalid as you seem to think.