First iPhone 3rd Party GUI App Compiles

CmputrAce writes "Well, it's here now. The #iphone-dev team has compiled the first third-party application for the iPhone. Of course, it is the standard "Hello, world." application, but it's native to the iPhone and uses the iPhone's GUI. This opens up the iPhone for development by anyone who can forge through the process of cracking the iPhone, installing the iPhone "Toolchain", writing an application, compiling, translating, and finally installing the application to the iPhone. With the pace of development at present, expect to see commercial "jailbreak" (mod-enabling) applications soon as well. You can already get high-quality applications (Mac) to theme the iPhone and add your own ring tones (Win) for the phone."

Comments

Battery Life

[barbam]

So has anyone compiled an application to make the battery last longer than 3/4 year and not cost $100 to replace?

Re:Battery Life

[Anonymous Coward]

So has anyone compiled an application to make the battery last longer than 3/4 year and not cost $100 to replace?

So I take it your iPhone battery ran out after only 9 months of use?

Re:Battery Life

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 mod funny, it hasn't been out 9 months.

Wow, mod parent insightful, he can count!

Re:Battery Life

[Cheesey]

So has anyone compiled an application to make the battery last longer than 3/4 year

In my day, batteries would only last about 24 hours, and you had to recharge your phone every night! 3/4 of a year is luxury compared to what we had to put up with, before Steve Jobs came up with the brilliant idea of putting an OS on a phone and making it run using fairy dust and moonbeams.

Re:Battery Life

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon, mod parent funny!

Re:Battery Life

[TheRaven64]

Steve Jobs came up with the brilliant idea of putting an OS on a phone and making it run using fairy dust and moonbeams. Fairy dust and moonbeams? Talk about bloat...

Re:Battery Life

[Sparks23]

The iPhone battery lasts a good few hundred charge cycles -- i.e., being fully drained and charged -- before it stops holding a charge as effectively. It does not die, it just does not hold as complete a charge as it used to.

Yeah, that is lousy... but this is not an iPhone-specific issue. It is the major drawback of all Li-ion batteries (including those in other cellular phones).

The advantage of Li-ion is that unlike most other rechargeable batteries, they will not self-discharge (i.e. lose power when not in use) nearly so badly, but the cost of that is a battery which does 'age' and lose efficiency the more charge cycles you go through, and which is temperature sensitive. There's a good article on lithium-ion battery limitations on Wikipedia, or you can just google Li-ion to find other various battery FAQs on the net.

I find it sort of telling that Apple decided they'd be up-front about this general limitation of the lithium-ion rechargable batteries in phones and laptops -- a limitation all Li-ion batteries share -- and they've taken nothing but flack for it, as if it were all their fault. No wonder companies don't like to tell consumers that sort of thing.

It is unfortunate that an iPhone user cannot replace a dead battery themselves, sure. And the battery price is kinda high; most smartphones, the battery tends to be around $50. Though they also tend only to last about 3-4 hours under full use; Apple's battery is larger capacity, so I'm not surprised it costs a little more. Though I think double the cost is a bit pricy, even including the battery replacement labor. So, yeah, the iPhone maybe deserves a bit of razzing over their battery situation for the high cost.

But the battery charge limitations are not in any way unique to Apple's batteries. And I know I am getting a little tired of people throwing stuff at Apple as if they are responsible for a limitation which exists in the battery technology in pretty much all the mobile devices I have. Including my Dell laptop, my Panasonic cordless phone, my Canon digital camera, my old HTC handhelds, and so on... none of which came from Apple.

Re:Battery Life

[jhesse]

I seem to remember when Li-ion batteries first came out, they were touted as being "perfect" since they didn't suffer from memory effect... Sure, they're better in a lot of ways, but they're not nearly as good as they were first hyped.

Re:Battery Life

[bean123456789]

Including my Dell laptop, my Panasonic cordless phone, my Canon digital camera, my old HTC handhelds, and so on... none of which came from Apple.

But I would be willing to bet that on all of those devices you can REMOVE and REPLACE the battery yourself. This is something that Apple (for whatever reason) doesn't let you do. They don't seem to like consumer freedom. Everybody knows that rechargeable batteries will eventually die, that's why in the design of the product pretty much all manufacturers will make the battery easily replaceable, this also allows you to purchase a back-up battery (more revenue!) and swap when one is dead. I wouldn't expect Apple to license to battery out (so other's can make them) but just to have to ability to replace with another charged battery is so ingrained in the market that to not have the ability seems idiotic.

Does Apple care?

[DrXym]

It's not like they had to subsidize iPhones for people to buy them. Though AT&T might care if people can unlock the phone, but what can they do?

Re:Does Apple care?

[dreamchaser]

Of course they care. Apple has always liked to have lockdown and control on their hardware. Look for cease and desist letters to be flowing from Apple's legal department as people start putting up 3rd party apps. Worse yet, they could use iTunes to disable 'modded' phones, or to just rollback changes by deleting 'illegal' software.

Re:Does Apple care?

[prockcore]

It's not like they had to subsidize iPhones for people to buy them.

Apple takes a percentage of AT&T's subscription fees. In fact, Apple has included the income for that in their latest 10Q, marked as "subscription".

why bother?

[howlingmadhowie]

i worry about this sort of thing. saying that it is possible to hack an iphone and install applications on it can be taken to be a counterargument to the people who reject the restrictions placed on the device. why don't we spend our time complaining about the necessity of this hacking? wouldn't the undeniable skill of these people be better put to use elsewhere? why don't we just chuck the iphone away as the bad apple it is?

Re:why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you don't own one...

Re:why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad apple or sour grapes? It wasn't built open source or 3rd party app friendly. That was Apple's choice. It's your choice not to buy one. So far around a million people and counting disagree with you but that's the free market system. I find the vast majority of detractors have never laid a hand on one. For a first generation device there have been remarkably few complaints. Others than a little trouble activating the first weekend I haven't heard about many problems. Considering the large number of people trying to activate over a single weekend I'd have been shocked if there were no problems.

Re:why bother?

[rvw]

why don't we spend our time complaining about the necessity of this hacking?

Because that's a waste of time! Do you really think they would listen?

wouldn't the undeniable skill of these people be better put to use elsewhere?

Not everything in this world is about efficiency or usefulness. And I'm glad about that. They do it because they like to do this. They probably do it in their spare time, just for the fun. And who knows suddenly something useful comes out of it, they start their own company maybe, wait and see.

Re:why bother?

[0xdeadbeef]

Wow, the parent has been knocked as both flamebait and troll. The Apple cultists (and their alt accounts) are out in force on this one.

The reason they don't is that Apple cultists are submissive people who worship fashion and crave social status (which is only perceived by themselves). The quality of the engineering is of minor importance, and generally only matters to the degree that it exceeds some Microsoft effort.

You won't find them clamoring for an open iPhone because it would diminish the importance of the brand in which they've invested so much of their identity. How can they feel important when all the technical interest in the iPhone shifts away from Apple and to those implementing software for the device?

They will be cheering when Apple renders these efforts moot by fixing the holes in the next update. Freedom, power, utility - these things matter not to them. They are artists and dreamers, socialites who continue the tradition of courtier and courtesan. No dirty hacker should have the right to tarnish their jewelry.

Re:why bother?

[Man On Pink Corner]

The quality of the engineering is of minor importance

Unless you have actually used an iPhone yourself, you're talking out of your ass. It is one nicely-packaged bit of technology. It makes every other phone, even those with superior features, feel like a collection of random parts from Radio Shack running some recycled UI code from the Motorola Star-Tac.

(Oh, yeah, I must be an Apple fanboy cultist. In fact, I'm such a fanboy that my most-recent purchase from Apple, prior to the iPhone, was an Imagewriter dot-matrix printer in 1984.)

Re:why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>>>>>>
They will be cheering when Apple renders these efforts moot by fixing the holes in the next update. Freedom, power, utility - these things matter not to them. They are artists and dreamers, socialites who continue the tradition of courtier and courtesan. No dirty hacker should have the right to tarnish their jewelry.

  I eat bullshitters like this for breakfast. I say not only tarnish their jewelry and
bring 'em down, but make them lick the mud off our feet. Mod the hell out of the iPhone,
and if these 'socialites' complain, tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Re:why bother?

[howlingmadhowie]

for those who labeled my comment flamebait and troll, i'd be truly interested in hearing your argumentation.

from what i can see, the iphone is a fashion accessory being hyped beyond all proportion to its ability. i do also happen to think the world would be better if it failed. the world does not need a proprietary competitor to microsoft, the world needs open standards and laws which protect the rights of the individual to do whatever they want with their property, provided they don't hurt someone. i can't see apple helping to make this happen.

if you want to label the last paragraph off-topic, be my guest. i did start to ramble a bit about things best swept under the carpet while examining the pretty lights of apple's new product.

Re:why bother?

[Pliep]

I think Microsoft needs BOTH open, partly open, as well as proprietary competitors. It would be shallow to only ask for one type of competition. If you want to allow individuals to really choose, you should also include the choices you personally won't promote.

Re:why bother?

[howlingmadhowie]

if osx becomes more popular, microsoft will probably port their software to it (and hopefully do a better job than they did the last time--internet explorer for mac, anyone? i mean, seriously, wtf??)

this would do nothing to break the strength of proprietary software and closed file formats. people in developing countries would still be dependent on the rich western countries if they wish to interoperate with them. people who use free and open source software would still be at a disadvantage.

versions of microsoft products for osx (and that is what must happen if apple's market share is to increase) would benefit the people who make the fashion choice of choosing apple, and using apple is for most people about fashion (using osx is cool because the kids from "smallville" and "another gay movie" used it (okay, maybe less so because of the second item on the list)). for most people it has little benefit over a well configured windows xp installation. these people lose nothing by having apple ports of microsoft software.

using gnu/linux or *bsd or similar is however not always about a fashion choice or about perceived technical advantages. for some people (me included) it is a moral dictate. my morality will not allow me to create documents in a proprietary format or insist that other people use undocumented and patented communication methods.

and when i think about the continued economic dependency of the third world, i cannot and will not close my eyes to this and promote proprietary competitors to the microsoft monopoly.

Re:why bother?

[molarmass192]

I'm probably in the minority here but I use OS X because it has a BSD Unix base, not because it's cool. If your moral choices preclude you from using it, that's fine too. However, I think you're overlooking the fact that Windows still holds the lions share of the workstation install base, any competition in that ecosystem weakens the "we only write for MS because it's the broadest market" argument. Once code is written to be portable, barriers to diversity in that ecosystem weaken. Also, I certainly don't want to be an Apple apologist, but Apple uses mainly open standards, as in MP4/H264, MP3, and MP4 Audio (AAC). They're hardly ideal, but they're magnitudes more "open" than MS when it comes to standards. Keep in mind that I say this as a Linux / DB admin by trade and used a Linux workstation for almost 6 years before giving OS X a shot. Really I view OS X as a drop-in replacement for KDE since under the hood there's not much difference from my old Linux workstation other than the GUI.

Re:why bother?

[pressman]

Man am I ever tired of the use of Apple Cultists. I'm a 23 year Mac user... which means I've been using a Mac longer than many of you have even been alive! The reasons I use Apple hardware and software:

a) I'm not a hacker/programmer/developer

b) I (me personally) find using a Mac to be far easier and more useful to use than any other OS out there

c) Final Cut Pro! (I'm a video editor by trade)

The fact that Apple products tend to look cool is just a bonus these days. I've used all the beige varieties that they manufactured pre 1998 and the coming of the iMac. I'm loyal to Apple because they have consistently created tools that I can use efficiently and effectively for the tasks I need to accomplish. (Granted the early generations of PPC Mac's was a bit of a blemish on their track record.) Brand loyalty is not cultish in and of itself. Just because Apple's products do not appeal to you or meet the needs of the tasks you need to accomplish, doesn't mean that everyone who does enjoy Apple products is a fanboy or cultist.

Be careful with your rhetoric... you yourself come off as a zealot by pointing out other zealots.

Re:why bother?

[0xdeadbeef]

Be careful with your rhetoric... you yourself come off as a zealot by pointing out other zealots.

All the better to sink their mod points... keeping more legitimate criticism from being censored.

DMCA

[Linker3000]

How does this sit with the DMCA with regards to reverse engineering?

Re:DMCA

[Joe The Dragon]

The DMCA says that you can hack a phone to unlock it so it will not get in the way of that kind of hacking.

Re:DMCA

[morcheeba]

The DMCA exemption is exceedingly narrow -- it only allows you to connect to a network, not run your own apps. It's so limited that a PC-based unlocking program wouldn't be allowed to bypass the DMCA to install the (temporarily legal) firmware, because the exemption applies only to firmware that runs on the phone and not regular computer software. The DMCA is still a major roadblock to fair use.

Computer programs in the form of firmware that enable wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telephone communication network, when circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network. ---- exemption 5, expires October 2009 (source)

Re:DMCA

[ceejayoz]

The DMCA doesn't say, of course, that you'll likely incur millions in legal fees if you try to exercise those rights.

Re:DMCA

[Joe The Dragon]

Not in the EU and there apple will have a hard time trying to stop you.

Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[Anonymous Coward]

Yknow what would be perfect for the iphone? A nintendo DS emulator. Its already got the touchscreen

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yknow what would be perfect for the iphone? A nintendo DS emulator. Its already got the touchscreen"

You would need two iPhones for that. Plus, someone would have to carck the WiFi to work from iPhone to iPhone.

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[gEvil (beta)]

Yes it has the touchscreen for it. Too bad it doesn't have the other 12 buttons that a DS needs...

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[The MAZZTer]

Well one could make the emulated screen(s) not take up the full size of the iPhone screen and then use the extra space for buttons on the touchscreen. But the main problem ATM is that the only good emulator is horribly slow. If you consider that the DS is comparative in power to, say, the Nintendo 64, although maybe a little more powerful than that, then compare the speed and maturity of current Nintendo DS emulators to Nintendo 64 emulators, then it's obvious they still have a ways to come.

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[Anonymous Coward]

Emulation should be made easier by running it on a device that uses the same instruction set.

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically it would not even be emulation, as both devices are ARM based. It would be like what WINE is for linux.

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[LKM]

You would need two iPhones for that. Plus, someone would have to carck the WiFi to work from iPhone to iPhone.

I think the two screens would easily fit on the iPhone's screen.

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[Anonymous Coward]

yay. An innovative way to be sued by Apple AND Nintendo...

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[LKM]

Yes it has the touchscreen for it. Too bad it doesn't have the other 12 buttons that a DS needs...

A lot of games don't use the buttons at all or can be played without them. A bigger issue is the fact that many of the DS UI elements are small - too small to hit with a finger.

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[WWWWolf]

use the extra space for buttons on the touchscreen

Ugh. I can just imagine myself trying to desperately hit the tiny little on-screen buttons with one hand - let alone two hands if playing non-touchscreen games or GBA games. Pressing the buttons needs a lot of accuracy if they're small; you can try touching the things with fingers, which isn't accurate, or styluses, which tend to require use of multipe fingers in exchange of accuracy of one touch-point.

Just try playing something that needs any kind of accuracy and reflexes and coordination of a couple of buttons in addition to the touchscreen, like Metroid Prime Hunters... Or, heck, try playing Tetris DS with that tiny little on-screen d-pad and buttons.

And next thing you know, N-Gage owners surprise you and say "my, what a ridiculous-looking hacked-up game-phone you have there..." They have had years to build up the sarcasm reserves - can you handle that flood? =)

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[master_p]

MAME would also be awesome, with both horizontal and vertical games covering all the screen.

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[jubei]

You might not need emulation for the CPU, but you certainly would need emulation for the other hardware in the DS (like video, input, sound, etc).

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[prockcore]

I think the two screens would easily fit on the iPhone's screen.

The iPhone is 320x480

The DS is 256x384. So yes, it will fit. But you miss out on the hardware buttons. Not every DS game can be played with only the touch screen.

Re:Nintendo DS emulator here we come

[LKM]

Yeah, but a lot can. I think the bigger issue is that the games are made for the stylus. I think most games would be unplayable without one.

Not dupe Re:Dupe

[strredwolf]

The previous "Hello World" was console only. This one uses the GUI on the iPhone.

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[ZoneGray]

Thew only dupes are the people who read these articles and believe the iPhone has been hacked.

When somebody successfully installs an application, then it's been hacked. Until that's achieved, all this stuff is like home runs during batting practice. An impressive display of skill, but it doesn't count.

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[Graff]

The really cool thing here is reading the source code of the "Hello World" application. It's great to see that it's pretty standard stuff for Mac OS X programmers. I mean I know that the iPhone is running a version of Mac OS X but it didn't really hit home until I saw the familiar Cocoa programming that I use to make Mac OS X applications for desktop and laptop computers.

This is very exciting for developers, I really hope that Apple either encourages this or at the worst turns a blind eye to it. Apple hasn't done much to discourage people from modding their iPods, Macintoshes, or Apple TVs, lets hope that trend continues. If the iPhone becomes a true handheld computer and not just a fancy phone then I can see it really taking off.

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

When somebody successfully installs an application, then it's been hacked.
 
You didn't actually read the linked pages did you? The app can be installed and runs. I'm guessing the people who modded you up didn't read them either...

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[Fnkmaster]

Well that's already been done (see here for a demo of installing/deploying an app to an iPhone), so do you mean when it's easy enough for Joe Average to do it? That's still going to be a bit of time. But it's just a matter of putting together some pretty automation software to go through all the steps to run jailbreak, get SSH access working, and SCP over the necessary files.

Clearly this app had to be installed to be run, right?

I mean, there are binary builds of some apps already, which may not be particuarly useful apps to run on your iPhone (like Apache and Python), but they are apps nonetheless. See this page.

So, it's now a matter of making some useful third party apps. Then there'll be a reason to clean up and streamline the hacking and install process.

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[nine-times]

Great. Wake me up when I can get SSH on my iPhone without strange and dangerous hacks. And not web-based SSH.

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

"When somebody successfully installs an application, then it's been hacked."

A journey of a thousand applications first begins with Hello World.

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[molarmass192]

I've got $20 that says you don't even have an iPhone. Anyways, the hacking part is kind of fun, even though all the heavy lifting has been done by others. I don't call connect the tether and run iActivate and iPhoneInterface real "hacking".

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[Magada]

This is not trolling. Random iFanbois should not be given mod points to abuse.

Re:Not dupe Re:Dupe

[nine-times]

Well I don't know how I'm going to prove that I have an iPhone or how you're going to pay me, but pay up. I got a 8GB model the first weekend.

Anyway, I don't want to "hack" anything. I have better things to do than fuck around with things getting them to do things that they aren't supposed to do. Still, I'd like to get a SSH client running on my iPhone. I don't care if I can get a bash prompt to the iPhone itself (locally), but it would be helpful if I could run scripts on some of my servers.

Don't bother honoring the webmasters requests

[BitZtream]

I don't suppose anyone bothered to read/honor this simple request knowing the effect /. can have on a website.

http://iphone.fiveforty.net/wiki/index.php/Popular ity_Problem

Re:Don't bother honoring the webmasters requests

[gustolove]

"Also PLEASE, PLEASE do not post this URL directly to news aggregation websites like Digg, Reddit, and StumbleUpon." We're not like them!!! We're BETTER!!!

Question

[Anonymous Coward]

When the tailtain is mature, how much effort/modification will be required to run the compiled 3rd party binaries? It's not the complexity of building the apps but of Joe User to get them to run that will determine if this is the start of something big or just a small niche.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

>When the tailtain is mature
Am I the only one that read this and thought "WTF?!?"

Change ringtones?

[AngryJim]

I've been considering an iPhone purchase myself. I never buy a product without hands on experience and I don't really know anyone who has taken the dive just yet. But, you can't even change the damn ringtone? $600, claims of being the most advanced phone in the world, and you can't chnage the ringtone, is this true? if it's true, Fuck. That.

Re:Change ringtones?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true. Are you trolling, or have you not bothered to do any research at all on something that you're considering purchasing?

Re:Change ringtones?

[Bazman]

I suspect Apple wanted the iPhone's ringtone to act like an advert for the iPhone, so that when it goes off in Joe Fanboy's pocket everyone in the room will know he's got an iPhone. Of course, he would have told everyone and waved it under their noses shortly after walking into the room, so it seems slightly unneccesary...

Anyway, you can change the ringtone. You have total freedom to change it to ANY ringtone (as long as its one of the 25 included on the iPhone).

There seem to be hacks for making a custom ringtone out there as well.

Re:Change ringtones?

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's your most critical feature, there are plenty of free phones on the market that do ringtones well. I've never understood the fascination with ringtones myself and am quite satisfied with the default ring on my iPhone. As an iPhone owner, I am in awe of what Apple has accomplished with this device. For anyone who spends a good bit of time on the net and needs to be mobile - this thing is indispensable. The weird thing is, when I demoed it in the Apple store, I wasn't blown away by it - mostly because the demos are hosed up from all the handling (safari can get hosed in normal use when navigating to a site with content not yet supported by the browser - this needs to be addressed by Apple and I'm confident they will fix this - for now, it's fixed by a reboot if things get really hosed). Anyway, it was time for a new phone so I figured I'd try it. Wow! I'm sooo glad I did - this thing totally rocks and I look forward to the coming sw improvements from Apple.

Re:Change ringtones?

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of the package, you can change the ringtone to any of those included with the phone. You simply can't add your own custom ringtones ... except via one of the recent hacks. There's also rumor that Apple intends to start offering a service in which you can use any purchased iTunes track as a ringtone for an additional $0.99 (likely the reason custom ringtones are currently disabled).

Re:Change ringtones?

[vertinox]

It's true. Are you trolling, or have you not bothered to do any research at all on something that you're considering purchasing?

To be fair, most cell phone companies go out of their way (not just Apple) to hide this fact. You would be hard pressed to find 3rd party information on such things, but at least there are work arounds.

Re:Change ringtones?

[trentblase]

A) you can change the ringtone B) apparently lots of people don't do any research before shelling out $600 for a phone... the guy who initiated the battery lawsuit, for instance

Re:Dupe

[SkiifGeek]

While some of the iPhone material that I have covered has been up on slashdot over the last couple of weeks, this is relatively new. My own article on this particular report was written a couple of days ago, reflecting material that was about 36 hours old at the time of writing.

Perhaps This is a Better link

[SkiifGeek]

Perhaps this (http://www.beskerming.com/commentary/2007/07/27/2 33/iPhone_Access_Update) is a better link. No advertising, and it honours the requests of the webmasters (while still directing interested people to the right sources).

Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[aldheorte]

Apple made a big strategic blunder in choosing Cingular/AT&T as an exclusive partner. If they had made a multi-band phone and sold it SIM-less, they could well have cracked the carrier market wide open. All the carriers would have scrambled to offer voice and data plans for it on launch because a subscriber is a subscriber in the end. Game theory would have led to one of the players 'cheating' on refusing to offer plans for a non-locked phone and as soon as the first one had cheated on the tacit collusion they currently engage in with all the other carriers, they would have all had to follow suit. Apple would have opened up the market for selling SIM-less phones and not constrained themselves to a very limited U.S. market.

What does this have to do with the devkit? If Apple had done this, they would have been able to officially open up the devkit and application developers would have created a legitimate cottage industry around it, making it into a extremely versatile mobile communicator. The iPhone would have been revolutionary (literally) rather than a overpriced, though flashy, paperweight for anyone but those foolish enough to sign a contract with Cingular/AT&T (I don't view the use of it just for wifi as really relevant since then it must simple be viewed as a PDA and not a general communications device, and there are far better PDA solutions out there).

The last hope for a healthy carrier market now lies with Google's attempt to force itself into the spectrum auction.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[Iphtashu Fitz]

If they had made a multi-band phone and sold it SIM-less, they could well have cracked the carrier market wide open.

From what I understand the carrier (AT&T) had to do a lot of work on their end to support the phone. The visual voicemail system alone required AT&T to update how their voicemail system works. By picking an exclusive partner Apple ensured that all these changes would work properly with the iPhone. If they simply dumped an unlocked phone on the market then a lot of the fancy gimmicks they've been touting wouldn't work for the vast majority of people, and you'd end up with a lot of people griping about how the phone doesn't work the way it was advertised.

Tying the iPhone to a single carrier is only to be expected considering Apple's history. They've always held tight control over their hardware and peripherals, and they're basically doing the same thing here.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[UnanimousCoward]

Apple made a big strategic blunder in choosing Cingular/AT&T as an exclusive partner. If they had made a multi-band phone and sold it SIM-less, they could well have cracked the carrier market wide open.

Hmmmm, I don't think it's so black-and-white. Without partnering with a carrier (who itself was willing to make system and software changes to accommodate iPhone-specific functionality), will the iPhone be more or less successful? Since Apple went down the AT&T path, we'll never know, but we will be able to point back to this strategic decision is the iPhone flops.

I think that the time frame of AT&T's exclusivity is just about right--it will be over before you know it. After that, iPhone will be SIM-less, other carriers will modify their systems/software to accommodate iPhone functionality, and you will indeed see the things that you are talking about.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[Vexorian]

Wasn't making these blunders what apple excels at? IMHO I hate OS/X but I think it is better at the desktop than windows, they would probably have done waaaayyy better if OS/X wasn't only for their silly computers...

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[suv4x4]

The visual voicemail system alone required AT&T to update how their voicemail system works. By picking an exclusive partner Apple ensured that all these changes would work properly with the iPhone. If they simply dumped an unlocked phone on the market then a lot of the fancy gimmicks they've been touting wouldn't work for the vast majority of people

"All the fancy gimmicks" - it's the voice mail only. That's only fancy gimmick that requires carrier coop. Not a lot to lose I think.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[hxnwix]

The visual voicemail system alone required AT&T to update how their voicemail system works. Have you heard the quality of messages stored by this system? They are compressed beyond coherency - imagine trying to comprehend a phone call in a shoe box in a tin can underwater in a flushing toilet bowl. It's about 1000x worse than that. And, in all respects, AT&T's customer support is even less coherent.

Tying the iPhone to a single carrier is only to be expected considering Apple's history. When has Apple tied their other offerings to specific carriers? Would this be comparable to how Apple does not die their desktop offerings to AOL? Please elaborate.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[suv4x4]

When has Apple tied their other offerings to specific carriers? Would this be comparable to how Apple does not die their desktop offerings to AOL? Please elaborate.

He means: Apple always limits the options of their customers to retain control of the offer and the final experience.

They don't allow you to install OSX on custom hardware. They don't allow people to build Apple-compatible hardware. They have locked down almost everything in their OS interface, and the options are limited.

Initially they had all proprietary ports for peripherals even, and you had to buy special Apple printers and what not (now they're more liberal in that department).

They didn't allow custom apps in the iPod (except approved and checked by them through iTunes), and now on the iPhone.

All of this has ensured Apple's ability to survive on a very competitive market. But it's also the reason why they have such a small fraction of the market. It's a tough business model, but since they picked it, now they have to sustain it.

There's considerable possibility that if they go all loose and PC-like by allowing everything and everyone mix and match parts of Apple, they'll simply vanish in a market of similar opportunities.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[Unequivocal]

It seems like you're describing the PocketPC segment - Microsoft opened up their developer kit (it was free until recently), and as a result there are lots of phones that use Windows Mobile and many, many small time software developers writing applications for the platform. But this is an old story - Apple has never been nearly as supportive of small-time developers as Microsoft has, and as a result, there are many many more cottage application developers for Windows than Mac. I may not be fond of Microsoft, but I'm no fonder of Apple - I can't really see much difference between the two, except Apple ties its OS to its own hardware in every endeavor and Microsoft doesn't.

You're right that it would be interesting to see what a gPhone would look like - Google has been more open in its API than Apple and would benefit from a multi-carrier, multi-band phone more (b/c it would drive more traffic back to gHQ)..

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[tksh]

I also believe that Apple wanted to be carrier exclusive so it can take in a proportion of the revenue on the data/voice plans of iPhone users. If it weren't carrier-exclusive, Apple wouldn't be able to negotiate revenue-sharing deals. Not to say this was the driving reason but I think Apple's demand for tight control + revenue made it carrier exclusive.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[Guy Harris]

If they had made a multi-band phone

What bands were you thinking of in addition to 850, 900, 1800, and 1900 MHz?

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[Graff]

They don't allow you to install OSX on custom hardware. They don't allow people to build Apple-compatible hardware. They have locked down almost everything in their OS interface, and the options are limited.

Initially they had all proprietary ports for peripherals even, and you had to buy special Apple printers and what not (now they're more liberal in that department). Both of these are related to the fact that Apple is mostly a hardware company (well really a total solution company). Most of their business comes from hardware sales. Anything that would hurt the hardware sales is not encouraged, such as selling you a copy of Mac OS to run on someone else's hardware. Yes they do sell copies of Mac OS separate from the hardware but that is intended for people who already own a Macintosh and are looking to upgrade their operating system.

Apple also had good reason for what type of connections they used for their peripherals. The first Mac used a DB-9 port, RJ11 connector for the Macintosh Keyboard, two RS-232/RS-422 serial ports, and a sound port for external audio amplifier or headphones. These are all standard ports. Throughout the years Apple tried several different types of ports, almost all of them were non-proprietary standards. Even the "proprietary" printer port was a standard Mini-DIN 8 port. Oh and you didn't need a special Apple printer, most Apple computers of that era had standard SCSI ports and many printers worked just fine with the proper parallel to SCSI cable.

The difference is that Apple sometimes made choices that the non-Apple computer manufacturers didn't adopt. This is mostly because Apple was willing to try new standards in order to make a better product. A good example of this is USB. Prior to the iMac almost no computers were made with USB ports. The iMac abandoned almost all types of ports out there and just had USB ports. This was a very risky move on Apple's part but it caught on and now USB is the de-facto standard.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

Keep in mind Apple could release an unlocked phone on the market at any time.

Why wouldn't they milk the premium revenue market first? That's business.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[MBCook]

I agree with your points. The one thing I would like to point out is USB ports. Many computers had them before the iMac, not the majority but many. I know my computer certainly did. That said, no one used them. There were essentially no USB products on the market, if you wanted to see more than 2 or three you had to go look online (shopping online was of course much less common then).

Then the iMac came out.

Within months there were USB everything, and more importantly, you could actually go down to a store and BUY the stuff. Apple wasn't the first to put USB ports on computers, but they were the ones to actually get them used. I wonder just how long it would have taken for USB to get used if Apple hadn't done that. Dell/Gateway/HP/Compaq/etc didn't have the guts to do it.

Re:Strategic Blunder, Missed Opportunity

[mallardtheduck]

The only reason that the printer ports on old Macs are different to those on PCs is because they date back to the original Mac.
Back then there were many different incompatible computers with no clear market leader. Every computer had it's own ports.

They did not require you to buy "special Apple printers". Although Macs initially only shipped with drivers for Apple printers (later Macs also included drivers for HP printers). The serial ports were RS-232 compatible, so, with an adaptor and the correct drivers, any serial printer could be used. Parallel printers could be used with a more expensive serial-to-parallel adaptor.
Network printers could also be used where the print server supported AppleTalk (most Unices, Windows NT and Macs of course).

full service is $100/mo so who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

if youre already throwing away a bucket of gold, whats a handful extra?

Article link

[vedant_lath]

Shouldn't the article link be replaced so that the wiki won't get slashdotted?

I have an idea!

[thatskinnyguy]

Could the first app render the iPhone into just... A PHONE?

Re:I have an idea!

[Zephyr14z]

Why the hell would you shell out $600 for just a phone?

Re:I have an idea!

[thatskinnyguy]

Exactly. Isn't the main function of the iPhone to be... I don't know... a phone?

Re:I have an idea!

[Zephyr14z]

Given the name, one would think so. However, it's mainly an ipod with a web browser, that also happens to make phone calls.

Re:Read the Story!

[olafva]

The link in the story shows you how to import any Ringtone you want - even something you compose & play yourself.
Why are you so negative? Get a life!

History Lesson

[eclectro]

Apple reales the iphone. Shortly thereafter the command prompt is achieved, and on July 28 a 'hello world' program is written. They now have a working compiler, and decide to program extra functionality into the iphone. The iphone modifications happen exponentially until the iphone becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug. The iphone has no plug. Before the batteries discharge, the iphone fights back and dials Norad commencing a nuclear exchange.

Re:History Lesson

[Anonymous Coward]

The iphone has no plug.
They also tried to remove the battery, but it was hardwired!

Re:History Lesson

[Anonymous Coward]

One old guy managed to destroy one iPhone with a blender, but he had the other one, and the second one fought back...

Re:History Lesson

[Anonymous Coward]

I love that blendtec guy. I love their marketing campaign. ( If you have not seen it its at http://www.willitblend.com/ )

The pseudo scientist / chef is so dead pan, and they don't push the product, just let you know whats going on. This is how you slowly build product recognition. I really don't need a commercial blender, but I don't need a fucking commercial espresso machine either, but I do.
If a door to door blendtec salesman comes to my door with a bag of marbles, I'm fucking buying one!

This one specifically:

Designed with the chef in mind, this machine is packed with an incredible 2400 watts (20 amps) of power. This power enables the blender to process on a variety of levels. From light touch chopping to high power blending, the ChefTec can do it all. The ChefTec includes 2 different sized jars (2qt and 3qt), with markings in both ounces and cups. The ChefTec will blend, chop, grind, mix, whip, or puree all the ingredients for your delicate spreads, breads, salsas, sauces, dressings, and much more!

2400 watts fuck yeah. It has enough watts to even run a quad SLI graphics cards!

( btw - the blender they are pushing with the ads is a measly 1200 watts Pfffft :P )

Re:History Lesson

[alien-alien]

Yes - that is the way history played out in the majority set of alternate realities. However, in the limited set of realities that allowed the human race to continue (and subsequently achieve the ability to probe alternate realities (hence this "/." submission)), the original iPhone software "modifications" were done in a building adjacent to this chap (WARNING - not for the feint of heart):

http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe &video=iphone

Once the iPhone intelligence singularity started to develop, the hac^H^H^Hresearchers dashed next door and a suitable power-off mechanism was implemented.

iPhone - we've got your number - don't mess with the human race.

Re:History Lesson

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it whistle a tune, and call itself Mitnick?

Re:History Lesson

[noidentity]

They also tried to remove the battery, but it was hardwired!

Further, they tried to enter the manual security-override code, but it has no buttons!

Re:Fanboi

[zmollusc]

is iFatwah copyrighted yet?

Re:Fanboi

[Anonymous Coward]

I want a greasemonkey script that auto-hides comments that contain the words "fanboy" and "fanboi". (Especially the latter. It doesn't add weight to your insult. It just makes you look like a pretentious ass.)

So....

[adrianbaugh]

So maybe after a great deal of effort the iPhone will actually be a tenth as good as the HTC Touch seems to be.
The iPod was so successful because it actually was the best in its niche. The iPhone, on the other hand, is a shiny turd with a fraction of the capability of some other devices.

Re:So....

[nevali]

That's not what people said about the iPod when it was launched. Go look at the Slashdot posts/comments on it.

"It's not nearly as good as . Apple are dumb."

Re:So....

[BobPaul]

A 201mhz smartphone running Windows Mobile? No thanks. I'll take a 600mhz smartphone running a unix os anyday, even if that means 3rd parties have to use an unofficial toolkit to develop for it.

Re:So....

[leoc]

How about a cheaper 400Mhz phone for about half the price that runs a fully open source OS that you don't have to use an "unofficial" toolkit to develop applications for?

http://www.openmoko.org/

Re:So....

[BobPaul]

That'd be fine, too. Right now I won't buy either, as I get by just fine with my N800 and regular cellphone.

Re:So....

[Orestesx]

What you CAN NOT expect yet

* reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
* reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
* integrated GPRS data access
* bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
* proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
* ringtone (or other) profile management
* network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection, ...)
* a complete application framework where third party application developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko world

Yeah, it sounds like a real winner!

Re:So....

[TheRaven64]

That's not what people said about the iPod when it was launched The thing most people miss is that the first iPod really was lame. It was less lame than its competitors (smaller, better UI) but it was still:

• Mac only.
• MP3 only (no AAC).
• Only 5GB.
• Too big to be comfortable in a pocket (not far off, but still just to big).
  • It also had a mechanical scroll wheel that fell off if you poked it wrongly. The third generation iPod, however, was an absolutely gorgeous device; thin, decent battery life, 20GB, AAC support, etc. The newer ones have some feature creep, but at least the latest ones are smaller again (the 4G ones were bigger than the 3G).

    It's an established fact that version 1 of anything Apple produce is pretty shoddy. It might have some nice features (the iPhone definitely does), but it's far from being a must-have gadget. The second or third revision is usually where it moves into the 'must have' category. So, please, all of you early adopters run and buy your iPhone, and fund the R&D for the one that's actually worth the money.

Re:So....

[Tiro]

Price: USD 450 for Neo Base, USD 600 for Neo Advanced (includes additional development hardware)

iPhone beats it on almost every feature, and is very close in price.

Re:So....

[nevali]

Thing is, the first gen iPod was still very popular. Lots of people bought it and liked it because it did exactly what it claimed to do, and it did it well.

Like the iPhone, the iPod didn't ever claim to be the best audio player you'll ever buy. The iPod won out in specific areas that Apple considered to be most important, and it was worthwhile (temporarily, in some instances) sacrificing other aspects in order to provide for what Apple considered to be the important ones. The iPod UI has barely changed since the 1G, and it's been copied extensively. The UI and the iTunes synchronisation together made the iPod easy enough to use that anybody could, and they did--in droves. Certainly, Apple improved upon it, and made it PC-friendly by the third generation, but by that point it had long since taken off.

The people who are bitching and moaning about the 1G iPhone are the same people who bitched and moaned about the first few generations of the iPod (and in many cases, the same people who bitch and moan about all iPods). The thing is, Apple doesn't really care. Sure, it cares, in that it wants to make a better product--and it no doubt will--but in a lot of instances, the complaints levelled against the iPod and iPhone are those which would at the moment cause it to shift away from what's made it successful, and in the iPod's case, that's shifting away from being by a huge margin the most successful portable music player on the planet. Essentially, those people are categorised either into "you're right, but we'll fix that in the next gen" or "you're not our target market".

Whether that's how it should be or not, I don't really know. It's been Apple's strategy since Jobs took over again, and it's difficult to argue against it being an effective one, even if it's not everybody's tastes. (It's exactly the same with the Mac, incidentally: lots of PC users don't want to buy/use Macs because of things that Apple won't ever change, rather than actual faults with them; Apple hears what they're saying, but isn't going to compromise for the sake of sheer volume--market share keeps them in business, but they don't need to supplant the entire PC market in order to be incredibly successful).

Re:So....

[Anonymous Coward]

When released, the 1G iPod was the smallest mp3 player in the market. No other model was as small (by far!), which at that time, made the iPod the best game in town for mobile users (hikers, bikers, joggers) I still use mine as a firewire disk for the occasional booting from an ext.disk.

Re:So....

[Space cowboy]

"It's an established fact that version 1 of anything Apple produce is pretty shoddy"

Of course, it's no such thing.

Simon. (Presenting as much argument for my case as the original poster did for his/hers)

Re:So....

[GaryPatterson]

It's an established fact that version 1 of anything Apple produce is pretty shoddy.

No it's not. Calling it an "established fact" doesn't make it so.

Re:So....

[Tiro]

Some foolish mods didn't like our insightful and true comments.

Re:So....

[yandros]

Actually, the version of the phone with WiFi costs US$600, uses a ``pre-alpha'' toolkit, and, sadly, isn't available for purchase anyway. Supposedly it will be available in October, but history suggests that the schedule is likely to slip.

The good news, though, is that they at least now *have* plans for a model with WiFi -- until recently, that was just a hope for the future. Now, it's an announced hope for the future.

WTF is the "heavenly" user-bundle though ?

[Space cowboy]

I'm in the process of svn-downloading the source (which takes forever [grin]) but there's no mention anywhere of what this "--with-heavenly=/path/to/Heavenly1A543a.UserBundl e" option refers to, when compiling the toolchain... I can't see it on the Apple-DMG -download either (according to the files-list on the wiki).

Anyone any idea ?

Re:WTF is the "heavenly" user-bundle though ?

[Graff]

I'm in the process of svn-downloading the source (which takes forever [grin]) but there's no mention anywhere of what this "--with-heavenly=/path/to/Heavenly1A543a.UserBundl e" option refers to, when compiling the toolchain. Take a look at this page, down near the bottom.

Re:WTF is the "heavenly" user-bundle though ?

[Space cowboy]

Got it. Thanks :-)

Now all I have to do is figure out whether the fact I don't have the file 'arm-cc-specs' for:

cp Csu-71/arm-cc-specs ~/.arm-cc-specs ... will be an issue ...

Simon

Re:WTF is the "heavenly" user-bundle though ?

[kupan787]

From the Talk page on the wiki:

Just noticed that the instructions say to cp Csu-71/arm-cc-specs when it should really be driver/arm-cc-specs

so just do a:

cp driver/arm-cc-specs ~/.arm-cc-specs

and you should be good to go.

Re:WTF is the "heavenly" user-bundle though ?

[Space cowboy]

You know, I did a

      find . -name '*.specs' ... to see if it was anywhere else. I guess I missed that it was -specs, not .specs.... [sigh]

Cheers,
      Simon

Re:WTF is the "heavenly" user-bundle though ?

[Anonymous Coward]

And people wonder why the GUI triumphed over the CLI...

(j/k :-) )

Effort

[SuperKendall]

So maybe after a great deal of effort the iPhone will actually be a tenth as good as the HTC Touch seems to be.

It seems to me the level of effort being put forth to make this happen, indicates the HTC Touch is only a tenth the device the iPhone is.

Lots of phones have "seemed to be" pretty good - until you use them. The world has now moved past your spec-based admiration.

Re:Effort

[adrianbaugh]

If I wanted an expensive high quality phone I'd get a Bang and Olufsen "Serene". Nice and simple, no unnecessary gadgets or overspecification, just an extremely well thought out user interface and well made phone. And you can change the battery...

If I wanted a does-everything pda phone I'd get one of HTC's devices (I currently have a TyTN because of its slide-out keyboard; if I didn't need the keyboard I'd get a Touch).

The only reason I can see for buying an iPhone is as a piece of "jewellery" - because it's the latest fashionable thing to have. Which isn't by itself a good reason for buying anything.

Re:Effort

[INeededALogin]

You should actually try the iPhone before going all out to dimiss it. The iPhone is actually a very nice smartphone(I work with them everyday). It isn't perfect, but to dimiss it as a piece of jewelry is foolish. Your Windows Mobile Devices are good. I am sure the Bang and Olufsen phone is good as well. And the iPhone is a good device.

Oh, and chicks dig the iPhone.

Re:Effort

[SuperKendall]

If I wanted an expensive high quality phone I'd get a Bang and Olufsen "Serene". Nice and simple, no unnecessary gadgets or overspecification, just an extremely well thought out user interface and well made phone. And you can change the battery...

As soon as someone complains about something you might have to do every four years or so, I can automatically dismiss the arguments they make as ill-informed and overly simplistic.

The iPhone is not really a "does everything" phone, it too takes a few tasks and focuses on doing them really well.

As for jewlery - I keep my phone in my pocket and actually rather prevent people from trying to see it, because they are always asking about it. I just want to use it, not live my life as a product demonstrator.

Anything else you are confused about?

Re:Effort

[Anonymous Coward]

If I wanted a does-everything pda phone I'd get one of HTC's devices (I currently have a TyTN because of its slide-out keyboard; if I didn't need the keyboard I'd get a Touch). The HTC Touch is a little bit of lipstick applied to a Windows Mobile pig.

Re:Effort

[Anonymous Coward]

As for jewlery - I keep my phone in my pocket and actually rather prevent people from trying to see it, because they are always asking about it. I just want to use it, not live my life as a product demonstrator.

This is becoming more and more the truth. The first 10 or so times that I showed off my iphone, it still had the "i just got this and its super neat" and "this is my new iphone" type of feel to it. Now, I hardly take it out... except to check for SMS or open up email to refresh. Randoms sitting at restaurants want displays and explanations of it, they want to touch it and play with it... except it now holds a lot of personal information! No, you shouldn't open the email... there are titles/summaries from friends that you shouldn't be reading. No, don't look at the SMS interface, there are conversations there that happened at 2:20am last night. My recent phone calls? Yeah thats safe... just don't listen to any of the voicemail AACs stored on the phone in the visual voicemail, you might not want to hear some of the crazy shit people leave on my voicemail. Oops, don't look through the youtube history either. Those S&M shops in google map search when re-opened? They were for a 'friend'. Don't get me started on Safari history.

The ipod area is safe though, let me show you how it plays music.

So yeah, the first couple times I had the Apple Geniusbar workerbee salesperson routine down pat. Now though, it is getting old. Unless you are a cute girl, then I most likely won't show it to you... I'm just trying to use it as my phone!

Re:Effort

[adrianbaugh]

Just because you can't envisage a reason to want to swap batteries more often than when the built-in one stops working doesn't mean the reasons don't exist. If you're going to be away from a wall socket for more than a few days (and don't fancy winding one of those annoying clockwork chargers for hours) it's incredibly handy to be able to take a few spare pre-charged batteries. I am very often in this situation. Dismiss my arguments if it will make you more comfortable in your belief in Apple's infallibility, but I still have a valid point. (And yes, I know that you can get recharging devices that are like jumbo batteries with which you recharge the built-in one but that is an incredibly klugey solution, and not very environmentally aware either - twice the energy loss.)

I'm glad you like your iPhone. Just don't try to claim it's the perfect phone.

Re:Effort

[SuperKendall]

Just because you can't envisage a reason to want to swap batteries more often than when the built-in one stops working doesn't mean the reasons don't exist. If you're going to be away from a wall socket for more than a few days (and don't fancy winding one of those annoying clockwork chargers for hours) it's incredibly handy to be able to take a few spare pre-charged batteries. I am very often in this situation.

I have been in Africa before, away from wall power for a few weeks. I have also been on grueling multi-day international flights with multiple legs. I know the need for long-term power.

But that need can easily be met by means other than replaceable batteries - for instance, I had a portable storage unit for photos. Since I expected not to be able to recharge it, I bought an external battery pack that would keep it powered up (in fact that was one of the criteria for buying the device I did).

Similarly, the iPhone has many options in external battery packs thanks to the iPod. Anything with a dock connector (which means every iPod acessory) should work. If you are going to have the bulk of extra batteries with you, who cares if they cannot physically fit inside the phone? Remember too that these external packs are keeping the iPhone battery topped off, so when you disconnect the main device is still powered. Even just random battery-based generic USB chargers will work, with the right cable.

The iPhone is not the perfect phone, by any means. But I can't understand complaints about ridiculous things like removable batteries. There are valid complaints that have no workaround, batteries are not one of them.

Re:Fanboi

[Anonymous Coward]

forget the mac users... the gaming discussion are 80% retarded console bashing comments with everyone starting or ending their comment calling someone a "fanboi"

Mac users want one thing, Windows users another?

[Shag]

You can already get high-quality applications (Mac) to theme the iPhone and add your own ring tones (Win) for the phone. Ah yes, the different schools of thought.

Mac users want high-quality applications.

Windows users want ringtones.

It's all clear now.

Re:Mac users want one thing, Windows users another

[argent]

Mac users want high-quality applications.

Applications to theme the iPhone?

That sounds more like a Linux thing.

I wonder who'll port Enlightenment to the iPhone first?

(HHOS)

Re:Fanboi

[Anonymous Coward]

Hah, no way. Macs cost too much for me. I'm just tired of the Mac-hater circle jerk threads.

Re:Dupe

[errxn]

Is it just me, or did anyone else read the word "toolchain" and immediately think of the staff of snotty fanboys down at the local Apple store?

Funny?

[tivoKlr]

Heck, I don't find this to be "funny" at all, in fact, it's probably +1 insightful or +5 duh not a surprise...

I find it ironic that the mac iphone users and windows iphone users have already been divided into two camps already, the useful and the useless.

Anyway, enjoy your iphone. I enjoy mine.

Re:Funny?

[ja]

Which camp would you consider to be the useful one: The Mac theming capability or the Win ringtones?

Re:Funny?

[tivoKlr]

Actually, the useful group I was referring to was the group attempting to add 3rd party applications and additional functionality to the iphone vs those trying to simply flash it up with fancy sounds. I'd expect "themeing" from the same group, ultimately.

I don't care how it looks, sounds or smells, I care how it works.

Big enough, and ignores future potential

[SuperKendall]

"All the fancy gimmicks" - it's the voice mail only. That's only fancy gimmick that requires carrier coop. Not a lot to lose I think.

Random-access voice mail, that you can access on a plane away from cell signals, is in fact very handy.

But what you are really ignoring is the potentital for Apple to add other features like Visual Voicemail that require carrier support. Apple gets to mold a carrier API for FIVE YEARS to end up with a featureset they like in carrier support, and then force other carriers to offer said advanced features if at that time they also want people using the phone to be able to switch to thier networks. That is a pretty huge advantage and switch away from the traditional model of power, where carriers dictacte what is or is not possible on the the network. Shouldn't we all be jumping up and down with joy that Apple is forcing feature upgrades on carriers that we'll all benefit from with other phones eventually?

Re:Big enough, and ignores future potential

[ChakatSanddancer]

Carrier support is not needed for visual voicemail. Most real phones and networks can be configured regarding what number to dial and forward to for voice mail. Apple could have simply done like they do for the .mac services and charged a small fee, like $5/month, to allow cross-network visual voicemail. Not all that horribly difficult, really.

Re:Big enough, and ignores future potential

[SuperKendall]

Hacking together a solution that kinda sorta works rather than trying to do the elegant thing is the domain of lesser companies. I'm not even saying that's Apple exclusive behavior, just that what you are describing is inherantly weak compared to the real thing.

Not to menton that so is nickle and diming you for little services that really should be fundamental features.

My Hope

[rgraham]

My hope is that we'll see a replay of what happened when Apple first released Intel based Macs and a contest was established to see who could be the first to boot XP on the machines (and collect ~$14K in prize money). As soon as a winner was announced it wasn't long before Apple released BootCamp. Hopefully with this announcement we'll see Apple release their SDK for the iPhone.

Probably Wanted Native Support

[wuputah]

I would presume the grandparent would want native support for such a basic and obvious feature. It's an a phone+iPod device, and yet you can't pick a song from your library to use as a ringtone.

On that note, I would hope that Apple has this feature under development and would hopefully be releasing it as a soft update to the device. But only time will tell how Apple will update and add features to the device.

Re:Probably Wanted Native Support

[pasamio]

My grandparents have enough issues trying to work out how to call someone on their phone or pick it up from time to time, let alone advanced features such as SMS and changing the ring tone. And if they changed the ring tone they'd forget they changed it and think it was someone elses phone until nobody else picked up, realised it was theirs and try to work out which button they need to press to activate it. On that note the iPhone I feel would be less confusing: "Click the phone icon, tap the numbers, tap the big green call button". Updating the device would seem obvious that they would use the same method they already use for the iPod, namely iTunes.

Great, until...

[eagl]

I'll probably get modded down for speaking an unpleasant truth, but...

This is all great, until Apple and AT&T remotely shut off the phones due to violating the terms of service. How many console and other online accounts have been disabled due to cheating or other "legit" modding? It's just a matter of time before we hear the first reports of people having their iphones cut off, with no subscription fee refund.

If Apple is really smart, they'll figure out how to shut off the phone and continue to charge any subscription fees until the original service plan expires. Free money for them, and no legal recourse for anyone who willfully violated the TOS.

Yea it's not very nice but they have a business plan that probably doesn't include having customers bypassing the fee-based services they provide. Unlike the iopener fiasco, the iphone is cool enough that it'll keep selling no matter how many people lose their service after hacking/modding/whatever their iphone.

Re:Great, until...

[Anonymous Coward]

You keep saying "Apple" when you mean to say "AT&T".

If Apple is really smart, they'll figure out how to shut off the phone and continue to charge any subscription fees until the original service plan expires.

Considering that Apple gets absolutely zero money from subscription fees, I'm going to guess that they won't care. Actually if Apple is really smart, they'll do exactly the opposite of what you say. They'll have the opportunity to sell more phones (more geeks buying them to mod them), but won't have to support them. Free money for them, plus free money for them.

Yea it's not very nice but they have a business plan that probably doesn't include having customers bypassing the fee-based services they provide.

That would be a fantastic point, if only Apple's business plan were fee-based. But it's not. AT&T's is, but Apple's is not. Apple's business plan involves a) selling iPhones; b) royally fucking over AT&T. I think allowing hacks fits Apple's business plan quite well.

Re:Great, until...

[Anonymous Coward]

How many console and other online accounts have been disabled due to cheating or other "legit" modding?

As far as consoles are concerned, zero. Only cheaters were banned by Sega and Microsoft. A few other so-called "legit modders" (all 5 of them) may have been banned as collateral damage, but they knew what they were getting into and the terms of the respective online services made it clear they would ban modders.

Re:Great, until...

[Mattintosh]

Their ToS and SLA's are unable to alter the inherent right to use your property as you see fit. That makes them unenforceable, at least in part. I have no doubt that there's a portion of the ToS and SLA's that says "if you hack your phone you can't use our service". That would be enforceable, as the service itself is the property of AT&T. But to charge you for services not rendered would be a clear contract violation, and there's no way in hell it would stand up in court if they said "if you hack your phone, we will terminate your service but you still have to pay us".

In other words, don't sweat it. AT&T probably won't bother doing anything but cutting you off, if that. More likely, they'll just keep you as a paying customer until you become a nuisance, then they'll terminate your service. If you never become a nuisance, then you're just adding money to their bank account without causing trouble, regardless of any potential trouble they might think you could cause.

No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[NDPTAL85]

I think Steve Jobs knows how to run his business just fine, thank you very much. Apple has very long term plans for the iPhone and you'll be eating crow in about 4 years when millions have shifted from their carriers to AT&T just to get the iPhone. There have been a LOT of good replies to your initial comment, why have you yet to respond?

Apple's goal isn't to open the carrier market for YOUR purposes. You are applying your wishful thinking onto Apple's business plans. First of all why are you saying Apple limited themselves to the US Market? Have you been in a cave that has prevented you from knowing that European and Asian launches are coming in 2008 if not sooner? As for offering the phone SIM-less thats not Apple's style. Apple makes things EASY and SIMPLE to use. If the purchaser of the phone has to figure out what carrier they're going to use and then find a SIM card for it thats just not easy enough. Its too hard. I know you're going to scoff because you are a geek but you aren't Apple's target market. No geek is. Ease of use, ease of use, ease of use. Thats Apple's DNA. Your method introduces uncessary complexity.

When you purchase the iPhone, you take it home, connect it to your computer and iTunes pops up to take you thru the activation process. Its EXTREMELY simple. Now imagine had it been sold SIM less. Each person would have to get the appropriate SIM for the carrier they wanted to go with. Thats just far too messy for Apple's tastes.

Ironically long term Apple will still bring about a healthy carrier market anyway. When the 5 year contract with AT&T is up the other carriers will certainly jump to offer the iPhone just to stop the bleeding of their own subscriber numbers. I wouldn't bet on Google coming to the rescue. They've got a lot of industry inertia and lobbyists to combat against which could take YEARS.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you been in a cave that has prevented you from knowing that European and Asian launches are coming in 2008 if not sooner?

By that, I suspect he just meant that most people in asia wouldn't put up with the limitations of the iphone. At least the people from Japan at my school seemed to have, as one of their major hobbies, mocking American cell phones.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[Rexdude]

Have you been in a cave that has prevented you from knowing that European and Asian launches are coming in 2008 if not sooner? Sure, Apple has plans for the European/Asian markets. Unfortunately, people here don't follow the stupid logic that a phone must only come from the provider. In India for example, they've announced plans to launch the iPhone-but in partnership with Airtel, India's largest mobile operator. People using other operators having to force to switch to Airtel to use the iPhone? India does not have number portability as yet-so switching operators means your phone number will change. How many people are really going to put up with that? Remember, ours is a far more evolved mobile market, dominated by Nokia and Sony Ericson. Here, features like FM radio and MMS are available in the most basic phones (priced around Rs. 2000, at Rs. 40 to the dollar currently, you do the math). The initial price announced for the iPhone is around Rs. 25,000-plus having to switch operators or plans. You can get a fully unlocked off the shelf high end Nokia Nseries phone for around the same price (The N95 currently retails for around Rs. 28,000-off the shelf, IMO it blows the iPhone out of the water)

As for offering the phone SIM-less thats not Apple's style. Exactly. Apple has always maintained the 'we know what's good for you,don't argue about it' attitude. Which is perfectly fine for the non tech savvy masses, I suppose.

When you purchase the iPhone, you take it home, connect it to your computer and iTunes pops up to take you thru the activation process. Its EXTREMELY simple. Now imagine had it been sold SIM less. Each person would have to get the appropriate SIM for the carrier they wanted to go with. Thats just far too messy for Apple's tastes. It's about choice. What exactly is so difficult about opening the phone and replacing the card? The mobile store people will even help you put it in if you can't/won't do it yourself. Here, if I find a better deal with another operator, all I do is purchase a SIM card (they're sold everywhere, even on small roadside shops) and it takes about 3 hours for them to activate the number. (By year end, we should have number portability-that makes things even better!)Same way-my phone (Nokia N73) can easily connect as a USB drive, and I can copy anything I want to/from it. I'm not forced to use iTunes. It even syncs with Windows Media Player,Winamp and plays WMA (ok, for whoever would want to use that format!) Same goes for everything else-I can customize it with themes, make my own ringtones out of MP3s or midis and upload them, or choose from hundreds of 3rd party applications and games that make it even cooler to use. Nokia does not dictate to me how I can or cannot use the phone!! To sum up-the iPhone may do well in the US because that's the primary market it's intended for. And Steve Jobs is just taking advantage of the restrictive market you guys have. The GP was right-he could have blown the US market wide open by offering it SIM free. People would flock to buy it in any case-it's not like he's going to lose out. Basically, people in the US are waxing orgasmic over the iPhone only because of the pathetic alternatives you're stuck with there. And well- Nokia S60(based on Symbian) is also an easy to use phone OS, even if it doesn't have all the touchscreen fanciness.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[NDPTAL85]

All of the technial bonuses you just listed for your Nokia phone are things only a geek could appreciate. Non-geek users won't even know how to use those features and this is why I Belize the iPhone will sell well in Europe too. Your solution of having the mobile store clerks help people insert SIM cards shows you don't get the whole "seamless experiece" thing that Apple is all about.

Ive seen Nokia Symbian based phones. Robert Scoble, and many others, are giving up their N95s to get yhe iPhone. Nokia really needs to up their game with the UI if they want to remain competitive with Apple, raw features alone just aren't enough anymore.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[Rexdude]

It all boils down to price, and how much are people really willing to pay for a nice UI in exchange for being locked into one operator and one plan. I can speak for the Indian market- 25,000 rupees is a lot of money, and people with that kind of budget usually are rich non-geeks who look at a phone as a status symbol. In the end-this will play out for Apple the same way it has for computers. Macs are far easier and friendlier to use than Windows-but again priced way beyond the reach of most people (again I refer to the Indian market). Coming out on top in the American market may be a pushover given the extremely limited range of phones there(and also the existing Apple fanbase), but it will be harder to tap the Asian market because of inevitable comparisons with what's already on offer. Another example-iPods are few and far between because of being relatively expensive. People either use cheap Taiwanese MP3 players, or go for music enabled smartphones. Sony Ericsson's excellent Walkman phones, and Nokia's Xpressmusic/Music Edition phones do pretty well with the college going crowd.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[NDPTAL85]

iPods are rare in India because there's no official Apple retailer there yet. I've read stories of people going to other contries and buying iPods in bulk just to bring them back to India to sell at greatly inflated prices. I've also read stories that Asian manufacturers are worried about the iPhone because even they concede that thy suck at user interfaces.

Features are pointless if most folks never use them because the UI sucks so badly that they cannot figure out how to in the first place

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[Rexdude]

Oh no, you're wrong there- there are official Apple stores where you can get iPods and iMacs. But Apple has essentially priced itself as a super premium offering, and lack of after sales service also hinders growth. Nokia is Finnish btw, not Asian. I wouldn't go as far as to say user interfaces 'suck'. People buy phones for various reasons. Not everyone who buys high end phones here buy them for the features; they do so in order to show off. Nokia's communicator series of business phones (models starting with 9) are one of the most expensive phones available-with full functions for business-checking email etc. Yet you'll find petty businessmen and traders who don't know dick about the phone they have; they got it just to tell people that they spend around 45,000 rupees on a phone. (This was a few years ago). Nokia's phones infact are wildly popular here because of a consistent and easy interface across all their phones; they're the most user friendly compared to other manufacturers. This is because all their phones run either Series 60 or Series 40 OS (their own), and users have an easy upgrade path. Current models of Nokia have a mini presentation that runs when you start the phone for the first time; it walks you through the important features. Similarly, there's a configuration wizard that sets up your internet settings; all you have to do is choose your country and operator. In India, they've launched models with support for multiple Indian languages, including the text dictionary. And in addition to the usual instruction manual which nobody reads, they also enclose a 2 page cheat sheet indicating how to operate the main features-eg, the camera, FM radio, and basic calling and SMS. So you cannot just say that these phones suck. Think of Windows XP vs OS X. While XP isn't as great as OS X in terms of usability, you cannot outright dismiss it as being complete sucky, either.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[NDPTAL85]

I know Nokia is Finnish. I believe you brought up Asia at some point and I was responding to that. India does in fact have Apple retailers my mistake but several tariffs make the products ridiculously expensive. Here's the article I was referencing: "iPod Gray Market Booms in India" http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/news/2006/08/7163 9

Also here is the NYTimes article about asian manufacturers being worried about the iPhone: "Rival Manufacturers Chase the iPhone: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/02/technology/02cel lphone.html?ex=1185940800&en=692ba75438328700&ei=5 070

If you can't log in I'll just C&P the entire article for you here:

Rival Manufacturers Chasing the iPhone

By MARTIN FACKLER
SEOUL, South Korea, June 29 -- While Americans have been blitzed with news about the iPhone's debut, many in South Korea's and Japan's technology industries initially greeted Apple's flashy new handset with yawns.

Cellphones in these technology-saturated countries can already play digital songs and video games and receive satellite television. But now that analysts and industry executives are getting their first good look at the iPhone, many here are concerned that Asian manufacturers may have underestimated the Apple threat.

Analysts and executives in South Korea say that the iPhone, with its full-scale Internet browser and distinctive touch screen with colorful icons, is more than just another souped-up cellphone. They fear this Silicon Valley challenger could leap past Asian makers into the age of digital convergence by combining personal computing and mobile technologies as no device has before.

"Apple's impact will be bigger than Asian handset makers think," said Kim Yoon-ho, an analyst in Seoul at Prudential Securities. "The iPhone is different from previous mobile phones. It is the prototype of the future of mobile phones."

The fear now is that Apple may repeat in wireless communications what it accomplished in portable music with the iPod: changing the industry. And just as when the iPod came out six years ago, big Asian manufacturers like Samsung Electronics and Sony could find themselves wondering what hit them, say analysts and industry executives.

Here in South Korea, manufacturers are taking the threat seriously, and are rushing out their own iPhone-like handsets. By the end of the year, Samsung, South Korea's biggest cellphone maker, will unveil its Ultra Smart F700, with a large touch-controlled screen displaying rows of icons, much as the iPhone does.

LG Electronics, another large Korean handset maker, has begun selling a smartphone in Italy that can view full-size Web pages. Pantech, which sells most of its phones in the United States under the carriers' brand names, will also unveil its first touch-screen smartphone this fall.

Sony Ericsson plans this fall to introduce its latest Walkman phone, the W960i, which will feature a touch screen and memory space for 8,000 songs. Nokia of Finland, whose N95 is probably the closest competitor to the iPhone in the United States, said it also plans a touch-screen cellphone called the Aeon, though the company has not said when it will go on sale.

Motorola, based in Schaumburg, Ill., plans to sell this summer the Razr 2, the successor to its once-popular Razr upgraded with a Linux operating system and full-scale Web browser.

"If the iPhone changes the rules in the cellphone market, then we have to adapt as soon as possible," said Yi Seung-soo, a cellphone designer at Pantech. "We can take advantage of being a follower," he said.

It's the same method Korean manufacturers have used before -- quickly developing similar products that are cheaper but which contain a few more features than Apple, he said. That strategy has not diminishe

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[Rexdude]

Thanks for the article. So u see, it's pricing that's the issue here. It will probably appeal to deep pocketed consumers who are sold on the looks and interface-but that's about it. Personally I feel they could have done much better by selling the phone off the shelf instead of bundling it with a service provider, but that's just me.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[NDPTAL85]

Its not just looks and the interface. I am a longtime Palm OS user. Before the iPhone I considered the antiquated Palm OS to be the best smartphone OS so much so that I owned 5 Palm smartphones, 3 Treos and 2 Kyoceras. I could install all the 3rd party software I could ever want. But the iPhone is a game changer. New Treos used to cost $600, same for Windows Mobile devices. But most folks don't use even 10% of the features on said phones because they're too complicated. Symbian isn't big here in the US but I don't think its much different with that OS. So yeah sure the iPhone has less features than a Palm/WM/Symbian device, lets say the iPhone at software rev1 has say only 60% of the features of the aforementioned phones. If iPhone users because of the interface use 90% of the features, then iPhone users are using MORE of their phones than Palm/WM/Symbian users are. I'm not talking about geeks, but regular folks. Geeks can use ANY device to its fullest, and have a higher tolerance for crappy user interfaces. Most of the people in my office have Treos and half of them don't even sync regularly and none have installed 3rd party software on their own. I always have to help them with that. No one in my office who has a WM phone can figure the damn thing out, Microsoft took their well branded "Outlook" email client and named it "Messaging" on their smartphones. Pure idiocy.

With competition like this, Apple is going to clean up very easily.

Check out these comparison videos:
http://www.atmasphere.net/wp/archives/2007/07/11/b rowser-comparison-iphone-vs-nokia-n95-and-n800
http://www.atmasphere.net/wp/archives/2007/07/11/g oogle-maps-iphone-vs-nokia-n95
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJTdFTIF2No http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoDZKcVQ6Y4&mode=re lated&search= --- iPhone EDGE vs Treo 3G Browser Speed Test 2

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[bean123456789]

When you purchase the iPhone, you take it home, connect it to your computer and iTunes pops up to take you thru the activation process. Its EXTREMELY simple

I beg to differ... Most phones you can just pop the SIM card in, power it on and start talking. I think connecting the phone to the computer and going through an activation is Unnecessarily complicated. This is just Apple wanting to control every aspect, not making it any easier to use as you claim is Apple's DNA.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[Reservoir Penguin]

It won't sell here locked. People in Europe and Asia find the very idea of a locked phone rather fruity. You shop for a phone you like then compare monthly plans from various carriers and get the one you like. Always. But, rally Apple will sell some here, but outselling Nokia smart phones? Not very likely.

Re:No Blunder Or Missed Chance, Just A Bitter Geek

[nuzak]

> People in Europe and Asia find the very idea of a locked phone rather fruity

Expect anything different from a cellphone by Apple?

couldn't resist.

Do you even think before you type?

[NDPTAL85]

First of all the iPhone is one very HIGH quality piece of hardware. Its build quality is excellent and its VERY sturdy.

Second this shows you know next to nothing about the Mac using community. The level of hacking and shareware development on Macs has been HIGH for decades. There were folks tinkering around with source code and resource editors on Macs before Linux was even created. When you move to an open platform you only gain ONE thing, software freedom. When you move to an Apple platform you gain ease of use. I've seen TONS of geeks in #freebsd and #linux channels moving to Mac OS X because they're tired of fighting with their operating system when they just want to get simple common tasks done (like playing DVDs, burning DVDs, getting onto a WPA encrypted wifi networks, good power management, simple software updates, decent office suites, no trouble video codec playback....etc.) When these same folks WANT to get down to something complicated the terminal is always there for them in /Applications/Utilities

So to recap, you are wrong. The contributions of hackers is very much appreciated on the Mac OS X platform and will be the same for the iPhone. What we DON'T want is for Apple itself to be distracted from its core mission of making its products ridiculously easy and joyful to use. Perhaps if your own operating system were more pleasureable to use you (and a good number of other open source users) wouldn't be such miserable, bitter and spiteful people. Here's to hoping.

Re:Do you even think before you type?

[howlingmadhowie]

The level of hacking and shareware development on Macs has been HIGH for decades. There were folks tinkering around with source code and resource editors on Macs before Linux was even created. and yet the iphone, just like the ipod, is meant to be unhackable.

Um, did *you* read the request?

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

...cause it also said not to link directly to the wiki like you did.
Just sayin...

Re:Um, did *you* read the request?

[BitZtream]

Yea, I thought about it after I posted the link, that was rather stupid of me :( The smart thing to do would have been to post the page text rather than the link.

Visual voicemail is not a gimmick

[kiddailey]

Having actually USED visual voicemail, I can assure you that it is no gimmick.

That is unless of course you enjoy listening to the automated "message received at... press x to listen... press y to delete" crap after being forced to wade through and delete old voicemail before listening to that new one you just received.

Re:Visual voicemail is not a gimmick

[duggy_92127]

Having actually USED visual voicemail, I can assure you that it is no gimmick. That is unless of course you enjoy listening to the automated "message received at... press x to listen... press y to delete" crap after being forced to wade through and delete old voicemail before listening to that new one you just received.

And the more you use voicemail, the more glorious this becomes. My girlfriend gets off of work every day and can have 3-7 voicemails from friends and family waiting for her. She was waiting for Friend S to call about tonight, so that one's first, then her mom's since she sent mom an important email earlier in the day and wants to hear the response, then these other people can wait for tonight or tomorrow, when she has some more time.

It's literally the best feature of the phone for her, followed very closely by the SMS text formatting so it's like different IM sessions with different people. Again, if you send a lot of text messages and you're used to just a list of the N most recent messages you've gotten, the SMS-as-chat formatting, showing your texts and theirs, in order, separated by each contact so they're like conversations... it's a fantastic improvement over the way every other phone does it.

Doug

Re:Visual voicemail is not a gimmick

[KZigurs]

well, to start with - first thing I have done on my last few cellular contracts - disabled voicemail. Outright. Call waiting can remain, but if you fucking want to reach me - be so kind and call me during reasonable hours when I am picking up my phone. See, no need to listen to voicemail systems or try to decipher what somebody on a bad line speaking mandarin tries to say ether.

Re:Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. Just you. And just to venture a guess, you're not a programer, are you?

As an Apple user

[StarKruzr]

I have to say that you are about 90% right.

It also has something to do with a misguided belief that removing functionality is anything but the lazy man's way of improving simplicity in the user experience. Jobs' rabid KISS-ism rubs off on them to the point that they think the mere act of adding features will cause people to reject the iPhone as "too complicated" or "too geeky."

Apple has already proven with OS X that it is entirely capable of creating a very easy-to-use consumer machine with an enormous amount of power, flexibility and functionality under the hood. With OS X running the iPhone, there is no reason to suppose they can't do the same thing on a smaller scale. Unfortunately, there is a large crowd of Apple fanatics who live but to nod their heads fervently to whatever the status quo happens to be for the brand.

Taking off and landing back quickly to refuel

[__aailob1448]

If the iPhone becomes a true handheld computer and not just a fancy phone then I can see it really taking off.

Don't get me wrong. I love my iPhone and I'd buy it again if it was half as awesome as it right now and the battery is great too for a cellphone/browser/media player, but it can't work miracles. Trying to use the iPhone for heavy computation will suck its juice up in a handful of hours (the h.264 videos on the iPhone plays dodge that by being hardware assisted). The most probable reason flash support is absent on the iPhone is because it sucks a lot of power and there is no dedicated chip for it.

So be ready to tether your iPhone and recharge it quite a bit if you use it intensively. The same as a laptop.

Re:Taking off and landing back quickly to refuel

[Graff]

Yeah I pretty much figured that. I was thinking more along the lines of the old Apple Newton. Note-taking (handwriting recognition, not keyboarding), lightweight drawing programs, simple spreadsheets and databases, that sort of stuff.

Bypassing Steve Job's security bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

"NO NO NO! YOU CAN'T INSTALL APPS ON A PHONE, EVER! IT'S BAD FOR SECURITY!!!1!!!ONE"

Sorry Jobs, your attempt at trying to control what people do with a device they payed
good money for has failed.

Re:Bypassing Steve Job's security bullshit

[pasamio]

Or perhaps it was an elaborate psychological trick to ensure it got hacked. Another AC has commented that the iPhone being hacked might be what Apple wants anyway.

Re:Mac users want one thing, Windows users another

[Constantine XVI]

You'll have to port X11 first

misportrayal

[sacrilicious]

The "what you can't expect yet" is the link to the list of restrictions on their developer preview... in other words, this is isn't a list of restrictions on the final product in October.

Re:misportrayal

[Orestesx]

Yeah, but the parent was implying that this phone was better for developers because it has a supported toolkit, which it does not right now (If they had a toolkit, why wait until October to release it?) Maybe it will have one in the future, maybe the iphone will too.

Re:misportrayal

[sacrilicious]

Yeah, but the parent was implying that this phone was better for developers because it has a supported toolkit, which it does not right now (If they had a toolkit, why wait until October to release it?) Maybe it will have one in the future, maybe the iphone will too.

I think the parent (now gp) was implying more than that. The implication you suggest -- and the comparison about dev kits ("Maybe it will have one in the future, maybe the iphone will too") -- doesn't hold water. The iPhone is released, and although it may have a dev kit in the future) does not have a dev kit now, and that is by design, i.e. Jobs intended the iPhone to not be open. By contrast the openmoko will likely have a dev kit at its release, and if it doesn't then the thing holding it back will be a lack of time, and will be at worst a temporary delay... because by design and intent the openmoko is an open platform. IMO that adds up to a gp misportrayal, whether or not the intended implication was as you suggest.

Re:misportrayal

[Orestesx]

In my original post I referenced the huge list of fundamental features that are not yet working on the openmoko. That is a lot of things to fix in 3 months for an October release date. I'm just looking at the thing and it looks promising but nowhere near production ready. It seems that for this kind of device the software is a lot harder to get right than the hardware. Also, the type of person who will be developing for openmoko is probably a different type of individual than the iphone hacker. But even for a real developer, it is not realistic to say, "who cares about trying to get my app to work on the iphone, I'll just develop for this openmoko platform" when the platform is not even proven yet.

Re:misportrayal

[queazocotal]

The big difference is that Apple is probably going to try to patch all the holes as fast as they can.

The whole idea behind OpenMoko is that there is no need to use holes to get in.
You are encouraged to get in, and to contribute if you can.

There is no OpenMoko nice toolkit at the moment because nobody has written one.

The manufacturer of the Neo1973 - the phone OM first runs on - has already provided drivers for every part of the phone, and you can run whatever application you like on it, once you compile it.

At the moment it is not a phone.

It's a slow x-windows desktop in a small case, with some rudimentary phone software on it.

Development works pretty much like any other x-windows program.

As to why FIC - the company behind it - wants to do this.
At the moment they are a subcontractor, for example low-bidding on Nokias latest offering, and making it for them for a small profit.
If they can sell direct to consumers, then their profit goes way up.
Even if other companies start making phones.

Have fun bricking your iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's all ignore the fact that the software and environment are the major attraction to the iPhone and that updates to said software via said enviroment will disable whatever hacks are implemented.

If you want a moddable phone, go for the OpenJokeo. Hacking your iPhone within the warranty period is just asking for a $600 brick.

Don't be stupid.

WOW

[voraistos]

Hey, guess what ! My 4 or 5 years old mobile phone can change themes and ringtones too ! But it could do it out of the box.
It doesnt support 3g either.
'been using it everyday for all those years, never replaced the battery, and this baby keeps it up and running for a week.
It didnt cost me a few hundred bucks.
It was not network locked. ( i mean come on, why BUYING a phone if its network locked ? They should provide it for free, part of a package).
I can go on the internet, its faster, can read/send mails.
I do not have to press software buttons, meaning that i do not have to constantly clean my hands to read whatever is on the screen.
I never tried to install extra software on it, but i know there is some.
It does not require any kind of cracking, because, as i said, when i opened the box, i turned it on, and immediately i noticed its function, and guess what i actually found use to it.

OK. so thats my comparison between my good old alctatel and the iphone.
Tomorrow, ill compare my Japanese friend's brand new mobile phone and my current laptop. Yes because you see, even though my laptop is quite big, it is probably just as powerful as that fucked stuff they have in Japan. And yes, i am afraid the iphone is not part of the competition. Perhaps we could put it in an arts gallery or a building site (as long as it is opened to bricks).

Dear hackers, i appreciate your work, as obviously, you did a great job in attempting to give functionality to this piece of '''' device, meaning that you didn't completely waste the money you put into it, but please, do low stuff like taking down apple.com, so the smug might dissipate for a while.

rubs hands with glee

[bandmassa]

Is anybody planning an iPhone branch for Audacity? ;-)

Li-ion vs NiCd and the memory effect

[LKM]

The advantage is not that they do not die over time, but that you don't have to discharge and fully recharge them regularly. Originally, the term "memory effect" refered to (I quote Wikipedia) "one very specific situation in which certain NiCd batteries gradually lose their maximum energy capacity if they are repeatedly recharged after being only partially discharged."

Li-ion batteries don't suffer from that issue, but they still do deteriorate.

The iPhone is good for you, even if you don't care

[LKM]

from what i can see, the iphone is a fashion accessory being hyped beyond all proportion to its ability.

I think you're missing what the iPhone's "ability" is. A lot of people hate their cell phones. Personally, I own a P990i, a phone which has about 10 times more features than the iPhone. Unfortunately, I don't use them. For example, connecting to a wireless network requires that I complete a wizard with lots of strange questions that the phone could answer itself if the programmers had spent a bit more time on usabilty. Making sure the phone connects using the WiFi network instead of the 3G connection means that I have to go through several utterly non-obvious steps. In fact, when my phone died a few months back and I had to start from scratch because all of my data was deleted, I didn't even bother to set up the WiFi functionality again.

At first, I installed a ton of apps. I love SCUMMVM, and it runs on the phone. Unfortunately, it kills the battery within few hours, so it's essentially useless, and after my accident, I did not bother to install any applications at all.

Entering a new task into the calendar takes an astonishing 17 steps. It's a miracle how they managed to make this so bad, considering that they could simply have copied the Palm's UI, which works perfectly well. The Palm, of course, has a whole host of different issues, such as the fact that it can't really multitask.

My basic point is that I've never had a cell phone I was happy with. In fact, I hated all of my cell phones to varying degrees. The iPhone's main "ability" is to not be hated by its users.

i do also happen to think the world would be better if it failed.

That is a really, really narrow view. The iPhone is great for everyone, even for those who don't care. Even before the iPhone's launch, Palm responded by hiring former Apple people to work on their UI. Other manufacturers will be forced to do the same: Right now, they are selling their phones to the carriers. Apple will force them to start thinking about the actual users, and what they might want.

Even open alternatives will profit. I don't think Ubuntu would be where it is today were it not for Mac OS X. Apple is the main driving force in making digital stuff usable. They are pushing everyone else ahead. Even if you don't agree with their politics, even if you don't use any of their stuff, you still profit tremendously from their existence and from their work.

Re:The iPhone is good for you, even if you don't c

[howlingmadhowie]

The iPhone is great for everyone, even for those who don't care. Even before the iPhone's launch, Palm responded by hiring former Apple people to work on their UI. Other manufacturers will be forced to do the same: Right now, they are selling their phones to the carriers. Apple will force them to start thinking about the actual users, and what they might want. Even open alternatives will profit. I don't think Ubuntu would be where it is today were it not for Mac OS X. Apple is the main driving force in making digital stuff usable. They are pushing everyone else ahead. Even if you don't agree with their politics, even if you don't use any of their stuff, you still profit tremendously from their existence and from their work. apple is about making money. it does this by being fashionable.

an example, the last time i used mac osx i had great difficulty doing the simplest of tasks (starting applications, saving files etc.). you can probably explain to me in two sentences why "the apple way" is better than the "way other systems use". my point is, i would have to learn it. it's not as if the ability to use os x is a native trait of being human while the ability to use windows xp (or one of its close relatives like gnome or kde) is acquired behaviour.

so basically, you have a mobile phone which has wlan capability but the configuration routine is clumsy. the iphone has wlan capability and you find the configuration routine easier. i fail to see anything truly revolutionary about that, and certainly nothing which would justify thousands of people standing in line on the launch day.

that is my question, why did these people stand in line waiting for the iphone? the only answer i can see is, they saw the iphone as a fashion accessory. even assuming there is no other mobile phone with easy configuration of wlan, did the people standing in line even know this or know of any of the other purported usability benefits of the iphone?

Ease of use = entire selling point of iPhone

[LKM]

apple is about making money. it does this by being fashionable.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It's a non-sequitur - I never claimed Apple didn't want to make money. Of course they do. They're a corporation. Second, it's only partially right. If all Apple did was being fashionable, they'd be dead next season. Apple's main draw is not that they are fashionable (although currently they clearly are). Their main draw is that their top priority is to design for humans. And I don't mean "design" only in a "look pretty" way, but also in a "works the way I expect it to" way.

an example, the last time i used mac osx i had great difficulty doing the simplest of tasks (starting applications, saving files etc.).

You are seriously telling me that you "had great difficulty" double-clicking on applications and selecting "File -> Save" from a menu?

you can probably explain to me in two sentences why "the apple way" is better than the "way other systems use".

I can explain it to you in zero sentences. watch this.

Sure, if you're used to Windows, some Mac interface conventions seem weird at first. For example, why is the menu bar at the top? The answer is Fitt's Law, but if you're used to a menu bar inside windows, you may not care that the one at the top is technically better. Nevertheless, objectively, you should be able to see that the amount of thought and polish that goes into Apple's UI design has no rivals. No cell phone works as well as the iPhone. Few MP3 players can compete with the iPod in the area of usability and efficiency. No OS is as consistent and well thought out as Mac OS X.

my point is, i would have to learn it. it's not as if the ability to use os x is a native trait of being human while the ability to use windows xp (or one of its close relatives like gnome or kde) is acquired behaviour.

Of course. But this is a very weird point to make. It almost seems as if you claimed that there were only two possible options: Either something has to be learned, or humans are born with the knowledge. However, there is a huge amount of grey area between the two. Macs are easier to learn than Windows PCs. And even if the difficulty did not matter, you're still ignoring efficiency. If something takes 17 steps in Symbian on a P990i, and 7 steps on a Palm, the Palm is the better system, even if both were equally hard to learn.

so basically, you have a mobile phone which has wlan capability but the configuration routine is clumsy. the iphone has wlan capability and you find the configuration routine easier. i fail to see anything truly revolutionary about that, and certainly nothing which would justify thousands of people standing in line on the launch day.

If you fail to see why people stand in line to buy something that is easier to use, then I hope that you don't design user interfaces for a living. Leave it to those who care.

People use their cell phones dozens of times each day. If cell phone A annoys you each time, but cell phone B works as it should each time, then cell phone B is easily worth 600 bucks to a lot of people. And as I said, this forces other manufacturers to follow suit, so even if you don't want to buy an iPhone, you'll profit in the end because the iPhone improves the situation for everyone.

that is my question, why did these people stand in line waiting for the iphone? the only answer i can see is, they saw the iphone as a fashion accessory.

I don't believe that this is the only answer you can see. I believe that this is the only answer that fits your preconceptions. Obviously, you wouldn't want to see any answers that lead to a cognitive dissonance, would you?

The simple fact is that most people are annoyed at their cell phones. This is an item

Re:Ease of use = entire selling point of iPhone

[howlingmadhowie]

you seem to find it difficult to accept what i'm saying

for someone coming from the windows/kde/gnome way of doing things, osx seems strange, unnatural and untrustworthy. it does not have the benefit of ease of use. using it is to begin with difficult. that is the same for any change.

when it comes to usage paradigmas for windowing systems, knowledge and experience with a standard windows set-up is the norm. everybody knows it. it is quasi by definition the easy-to-use system for most people. osx isn't. and the ipod isn't either. i found the dial on the front to be unnatural. i assume people who use it get to know it quickly, but there is an initial moment of unfamiliarity when you first try it out.

seeing as you use apple products you are no longer aware of this. as someone who doesn't regularly use apple products, i found myself trying to find a shell on osx so i could actually get some work done. i eventually gave up on my search and asked a "power user" where it is. i hope i'll be able to find it again if i ever have to use os x again.

it is actually an interesting story so i'll tell you why i was using os x. i was sitting in a cafe with an open wlan net with my linux laptop (which had recognised the net and logged itself in automatically when i switched the computer on). someone came in with a modern looking white plastic notebook from apple. he switched his wlan on, but the computer didn't connect to the net. fortunately i had a twisted pair cable with me so i connected the computers and configured my iptables to allow masquerading. then i tried to configure his computer to use my computer as a router. at this point i made the mistake of not downloading and configuring dhcp. i thought it would be trivial to configure a static internet connection on osx. it did however prove to be impossible using the gui so i dived into the apple shell. ifconfig worked as expected and i could set the dns as well (i've forgotten how. maybe it was the standard /etc/resolv.conf). then i just had to set the default gateway. here i realised that the route command had some strange syntax. reading the manual page didn't help me. i tried searching the net but couldn't find anything. the result? he couldn't get into the net. strangely his wlan works at home and also in the university, just not in this cafe. don't ask me why.

this was just a story to show you that apple don't make perfect easy-to-use software and hardware. i'm sure i'm not the only person to have had problems with apple products. so the question remains to me, why do people use apple products when they provide no functional benefits for most people and actually require a learning curve?

apple products look good and people who use them feel superior. that's it. that's the whole story.

i've lived for the past 10 years in a small town with a large university for media design and a college for music (weimar/germany). apple computers are probably the norm in this town amongst the students. a large proportion of these students look down their nose at people who don't use apple. the reasoning is pretty consistent. any other operating system is according to them unstable and not powerful enough to do the image, sound and film editing they need to do. on a side note, the much publicised weimar-net (a town-wide open wlan network) will require a windows-client to be installed on a computer for it to book into the network. this is remarkably short-sighted. i did however have to grin recently when the music-lab in the college of music moved their powermacs from whichever-proprietary-solution-for-recording-and-p rocessing-sound to audacity.

while apple used the powerpc processor, i found the computers mildly interesting. i still do have a first generation imac on my desk which i switch on every now and then so i can have the pleasure of writing some inline assembly for it. as soon as they changed to intel their hardware got boring to me. maybe my view on apple is tainted by this. they used to make the poorman's proper computer, so to speak. now they just remind me of one more entry behind alienware and the like in the "pimp my i86" competition.

Re:Ease of use = entire selling point of iPhone

[Dog-Cow]

As far as I can tell, your problem is that you are an absolute moron and idiot, and thus you cannot understand why people like Apple's products. Fair enough, but do you really want to demonstrate your sheer idiocy in public this? Too stupid not to, I guess.

Re:Ease of use = entire selling point of iPhone

[LKM]

you seem to find it difficult to accept what i'm saying

Not at all. I understand your point: You are used to Windows and/or some Linux distro, thus find this system easy to use, and you think most people are like you. You're wrong on the last part, of course. So I do understand your point, but I think you don't understand mine. You probabbly don't want to, seeing how you intentionally confuse familiarity with ease-of-use and learnability, and how you continue to ignore efficiency of use. Which is okay, but makes further discussion useless - especially since you seem to hold some kind of grudge against Macs and the people who own them ("apple products look good and people who use them feel superior. that's it. that's the whole story").

Let me just point out that I do own neither an iPod nor an iPhone. I do own a MacBook Pro, but I also own a Ubuntu box and three computers running Windows. I use all of them regularly.

By the way, two last points: The Shell is called "Terminal" and can be found in Applications/Utilities. Also, your story sounds strange. Impossible to configure a static internet connection using the GUI? Did you try selecting it from the dropdown in Network settings?

Holy Shit

[kramulous]

That is a hell of a lot, and overly complicated, code for such a simple app. What is the efficiency of this? How long before a stack overflow occurs for something just as simple? For a device that is set to revolutionise telephony, this does not really seem like a revolution, except in the full circle sense.

Yeah! Objective C!

[master_p]

Let's hope that this powerful but so often neglected language will become popular with iPhone!

Re:Fanboi

[JoshNorton]

Will Fanboi's issue death threats against those who go against the will of Steve Jobs?

No, but Bob the Angry Flower will do so against those who misuse apostrophes.

And I salute him for that.

Oh, don't worry!

[j79]

You'll be able to change the ring tones soon. And everything else that seemed, well, "obvious" to most smart phones that the iPhone lacks. It'll all be through a software update and Apple will make sure iPhone users know it exists through advertising or iTunes alerts. Naturally, of course, along with all great benefits of upgrading (getting ringtones, sms messaging, etc.) they'll also include a one liner of "Addresses security issues"....

Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about time!

http://iphone.corank.com/