Slashdot Mirror


DSS/HIPPA/SOX Unalterable Audit Logs?

analogrithems writes "Recently I was asked by one of the suits in my company to come up with a method to comply with the new PCI DSS policy that requires companies to have write once, read many logs. In short the requirement is for a secure method to make sure that once a log is written it can never be deleted or changed. So far I've only been able to find commercial and hardware-based solutions. I would prefer to use an open source solution. I know this policy is already part of HIPPA and soon to be part of SOX. It seems like there ought to be a way to do this with cryptography and checksums to ensure authenticity. Has anyone seen or developed such a solution? Or how have you made compliance?"

381 comments

  1. Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Optical media are great for write once, read many.

    1. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by arivanov · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not quite.

      They are not very good at tasks which involve writing a lot in small increments like a log. The sector size is quite big so if you guarantee that each log entry has finished physically on disc without caching till the sector is full the disc will be eaten in no time.

      You probably need a custom writer/reader (most normal ones cannot alter sector size) and custom formatted media along with something different from isofs. Not rocket science really, but definitely beyond the scope of DIY.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    2. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by //rhi · · Score: 4, Funny

      I always thought that WORM stood for "Write Once, Read Maybe"
      //rhi - Enjoy the American Dream - You have to be asleep to believe it.

      --
      //rhi /.15411./
    3. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by jabuzz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Or you could just use a DLT/lTO drive with WORM media. Works just fine for appending, no special software needed. Admitedly the drives are not cheap, but it is an easy solution. In fact the WORM media for DLT/LTO where developed specifically for this sort of application.

    4. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They are not very good at tasks which involve writing a lot in small increments like a log. The sector size is quite big so if you guarantee that each log entry has finished physically on disc without caching till the sector is full the disc will be eaten in no time. I seem to recall that DVD+R was designed to work around that problem. The thinking at the time was that people would used DVD+R media like they used VHS tapes, to record tv with the ability to pause and or stop/restart recording frequently. They wanted to avoid the inefficiency of CD-R and DVD-R which are very wasteful on start/stop record operations as you indicated.

      I really can't dig up the link, it was years ago that I read this and google ain't cooperating right now, but I recall that whereas a recording pause could waste up to an entire track (once around the disc) with DVD-R, a DVD+R recorder would waste at most one sector (one the order of a few Kbytes).
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    5. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "They are not very good at tasks which involve writing a lot in small increments like a log."

      Append multisession, anyone? I think that technology's been out for awhile for writing accumulating data to a write-once optical disc. Nero and deepburner have supported this for a while, I'm sure an open-source solution is available.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    6. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Is the physical device capable of writing less than a sector in one go?
      As for the FS, you dont need one, just a raw stream of data.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    7. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      Can you write a small quantity (less than 100 bytes) per session without using ten times that due to how the file clustering works? Can a file span sessions? Is there a limit to the number of sessions and if so what is it? What about the overhead used in session management?

      I don't know all the answers, but I suspect it's not quite as simple as you suggest.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    8. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by ajs · · Score: 5, Informative
      Optical is the right choice here, but you need to understand the PCI requirements and their most common interpretation VERY clearly. What you will probably end up with is something like this:
      • Logs are written over the network (e.g. syslog)
      • Logging host, which is locked down, and has no access from the infrastructure that it's performing logging for other than the incoming log data itself.
      • Logging host writes the logs locally to files which are marked as append-only by the OS (Linux can do this)
      • The logs are then written periodically (e.g. once per hour) to optical media.
      • Add redundant logging hosts to taste (3 is a nice number for validation purposes).

    9. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I think the Flintstones got it right by hiring monkeys to chisel out logs in stone.

    10. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by arivanov · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. In fact it is even worse. In most optical media the session resolution is a track. Not even a sector. While you can leave the session open and write sequentially this means that the disk is not fixated. I am not sure for how long and to what extent you can do that. Even in that case you are working at a sector resolution which in ISOFS is 2048 bytes. That exceeds by far the size of most log entries. Overall, writing to optical media for applications like this is a can of WORMs (pun intended) which you just do not want to open.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    11. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by netglen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What about the old school method of dumping the log directly to a line printer?

    12. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

      Too much trouble and it's too easy to work around.

      If I want to alter records all I need to do is rip the DVD, edit it on my HD, and burn it to a new DVD+R, abd destroy the old one.

    13. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by itwerx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wish there was a way to mod an entire thread Offtopic.

      From TFA:
            "So far I've only been able to find commercial and hardware-based solutions. I would prefer to use an open source solution."
      FP:
            Write them to a DVD jukebox

            Hmm, yeah, I'm sure there's dozens of open source hardware designs for DVD jukeboxes - I'll have that Googled by the time my soldering iron heats up!
            Only on Slashdot can the First Post get modded to +5 for a reply which is so completely Offtopic it's Funny, obviously written by somebody who didn't RTFA, followed by dozens of posts debating the merits of the "answer" without noticing that it's not what the submitter is looking for!!
            And we wonder why the rest of the world thinks IT people can't communicate...

    14. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Informative

      I remember working with VHS tapes. We had to lay down a "control track" by recording a continuous stream over the entire disc before using it. Maybe it's just because my highschool had bad video editing hardware, but I remember that this control track was important if you wanted the editing machines to be able to properly align with single frames when editing, and for the time and frame number to be consistent.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    15. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by asc99c · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I believe you're thinking of DVD-RAM which is always rewritable, with no write-once version.

    16. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      I actually do admin work on a machine that still does this (it's a financials machine, so it has triple log redundancy). God help you if you ever need to check the hardcopy log, because no one else will. There is no easy way to audit it, the physical storage requirements are obscene, and anyone with the right level of access can probably just turn off the terminal echo for a minute or two, or hell, even just turn off the printer.

      It was the thing a few decades ago, but these days, no way.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    17. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by ThinkingInBinary · · Score: 2, Informative

      If I want to alter records all I need to do is rip the DVD, edit it on my HD, and burn it to a new DVD+R, abd destroy the old one.

      Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't that be possible with unsigned data on any media? If you can obtain the media and a writer, and the data isn't authenticated somehow, you can always simply write a new version and toss the old. Unalterable does not mean impossible to destroy, just impossible to modify once written. Cryptographically signing data before writing it to any write-once medium (like DVD+R) would seem to solve this problem, because you'd need the signing key to "modify" it as you suggest.

    18. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by alcourt · · Score: 5, Informative

      Append only files have not been required in my experience. What is required is that there be no ability to overwrite a previously written file by the team that is sending the log data. This can be done a number of ways, but the easiest method is to transmit the data in a way that the server chooses the filename, not the client. Add a date string into the filename and you can (with a few other details I've worked at but am here waving a wand at) avoid the problem.

      syslog works for most data, but not all. Linux is one of the only Unix based systems that puts sulog through syslog. The failed logins log is much more difficult, as is the wtmp data. wtmp data is especially annoying as it is one of the only ways to semi-reliably record both login and logout regardless of login type (including ssh), and can't really handle real time data streaming. The other annoying item is the command line history of all commands with EUID 0. I'm hoping to hear some news soon on a solution to that problem, but it is really difficult, especially since a lot of SAs become root via `sudo -s` or `su` (as opposed to `su -`, which would not modify their HISTFILE variable. Many root shells do not support direct sending of HISTFILE over the network.

      As to writing periodically to a optical media, I wouldn't worry quite so much about that. I would instead worry more about the encrypting all that security data while in network transit. (Sorry, can't recall if that is a firm requirement of PCIDSS 1.1 or not). Unfortunately, this makes use of syslog a less trivial solution. Authenticity is also an issue to be concerned with. How do you know that the event that got inserted into the log really came from that box, and not some random other server? Traditionally, syslog has not concerned itself with such issues, but a PCI system may care a great deal.

      Once the data is on the central logging host, it is already in a state that the author of the data (the SAs for the PCI impacted box) cannot modify it. That eliminates at least in the interpretation of PCI I've been working on, the need for writing to optical media. Immutable is not so much immutable by anyone, but immutable by the server in question.

      The point of the central copy of the logs is so that modification on either side can be readily detected and investigated. But if you cannot trust your central log host to have an accurate copy of the logs because you are receiving log data from anyone who chooses to pretend they are your PCI impacted server, then your central log host does not give you as much value as it may seem. The audit requirements aren't just for making lives miserable, they usually have a valid point behind them.

      When working with PCI, know which DSS you are on, 1.0 or 1.1. (I don't know the release schedule for the next PCIDSS.) The requirements do differ, as do even the interpretations. Reference https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/ for the information.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    19. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      directly to a line printer?

      surprised no one has suggested stenography in naked photos posted to usenet?
    20. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by anilg · · Score: 1

      Welcome to slashdot!

      --
      http://dilemma.gulecha.org - My philospohical short film.
    21. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by ajs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Append only files have not been required in my experience. What is required is that there be no ability to overwrite a previously written file by the team that is sending the log data. The one is a way to get the other... at least partially. Physical and electronic security and partitioning of roles gets you the rest of the way.

      This can be done a number of ways, but the easiest method is to transmit the data in a way that the server chooses the filename, not the client. I'm not sure how filenames enter into it, since you don't give the application people access to the log host anyway.

      syslog works for most data, but not all. Linux is one of the only Unix based systems that puts sulog through syslog. The failed logins log is much more difficult, as is the wtmp data. There is a "syslog Working Group" that's working on that and other problems. I don't know if syslogng supports any of their proposals yet, though.

      As to writing periodically to a optical media, I wouldn't worry quite so much about that. It's very important to be able to talk about your risk exposure profile. When you can say that the exposure to electronic subversion of the logs (regardless of how hard you make that, via electronic security) ends when the data is written to optical disk, you can make a much stronger case for the data being functionally write-once.

      I would instead worry more about the encrypting all that security data while in network transit. That would only be necessary if you transmit sensitive data in the logs. For example, if a healthcare company wrote client data to their in-house application server's logs, then the logs would have to be subject to the same security constraints as every other piece of sensitive data. This is as far as I know, but my PCI exposure is tangential, and I haven't read the requirements first-hand.

      Authenticity is also an issue to be concerned with. How do you know that the event that got inserted into the log really came from that box, and not some random other server? Typically, you don't care (as long as you have the valid entries, any invalid ones are typically just noise), sometimes you do. I'm not aware of any PCI requirement for authentication in general, but for some purposes that may be there. I do think that syslogng might provide a means of minimal authentication, but I'm not certain about that.

      When working with PCI, know which DSS you are on, 1.0 or 1.1. A fair point.
    22. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there's dozens of open source hardware designs for DVD jukeboxes

      Well, your going to have to store on some kind of hardware at some point, that hardware is either not going to be enterprise grade, AND completely GPL'd firmware/schematics.

      Correct saying using a DVD, is not a opensource solution in it's self. However using ZFS, and simply doing a "zfs export" on a volume containing all your logs, and zfs history turned on, and dump that export to a dvd, would give a opensource solution. Thats all assuming that the poster is logging less than a DVD's worth of data in a reasonable amount of time.

      so, ya I would go in steps:

      STEP 1: will managing this data on DVD's work for you? start a thread exploring how to do it on a DVD.

      STEP 1: will it work to a printer? start a thread using a printer.

      STEP 1: will it work to a separate PC using a network solution, and read/write media? start a thread on that.

    23. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Lesrahpem · · Score: 1

      If you want to be able to ship log messages between servers reliably, securely, and with the ability to verify integrity I recommend setting up a silc server on your network and using it to handle that. Silc uses public key authentication and encryption, and has the option to sign messages (and check message signatures) to verify authenticity. Granted, silc is meant to be a chat protocol, but I see no reason it can't be used this way.

    24. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by atamido · · Score: 1

      But if you cannot trust your central log host to have an accurate copy of the logs because you are receiving log data from anyone who chooses to pretend they are your PCI impacted server

      Why not just have the logging server log into the servers to be logged, and continually monitor all of their logs for changes? Certificates would ensure that each computer is who they say they are, and you don't have to worry about streaming data if it is just being read. Also, you could put the logging server behind a NAT firewall, which is next to impossible to "hack" through (as it will only forward requested data).

    25. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 1

      uh...what if there are no good os solutions ?
      uh...what if the poster didn't really know what to ask ?
      uh.. what if the hundreds of years of experience in the/. community has a better answer then what the posoter wanted ?

      uh..what if strict but stupid grammar nazis take other people to task....

    26. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 1

      Unless you encrypt the information, or at the very least do a checksum (and store it elsewhere), you're pretty much hosed if someone is able to remove the original physical media.

    27. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How did this troll get modded insightful. I guess that the processor, motherboard, firmware, cd, dvd, controllers and everything else has to be open source. Linux can talk to a dvd jukebox, write your app on top of that.

    28. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by dfsteen · · Score: 1

      I would instead worry more about the encrypting all that security data while in network transit. (Sorry, can't recall if that is a firm requirement of PCIDSS 1.1 or not). Unfortunately, this makes use of syslog a less trivial solution. Authenticity is also an issue to be concerned with. Using an ssh tunnel you could get both easily.

    29. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other annoying item is the command line history of all commands with EUID 0.


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudosh and lock down everything else: sudo -s is disabled in the sudoers, and the root password is in a sealed envelope (or disable root completely except via console or use RBAC).
    30. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by ccandreva · · Score: 1

      This was my idea too

      Mod me rudundant. I meant to mod the parrent insightful, but slipped, and the stupid AJAX wouldn't let me take it back. So this reply is to negate my moderation. Sorry.

    31. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by leonem · · Score: 1

      Yup, VHS tapes have to be 'blacked' if you want a consistent timecode. So called because one often 'zeroed' the audio and video tracks to black/silent while laying down the timecode track, rather than having them as static (not sure if that actually helped when recording, but it was a good way to tell if you had a timecode). I wasn't aware that it had an effect on single-frame operations, but then I always worked on blacked tapes when I did that. The deck we had could fine-tune to less than a frame's length of tape, so it may have been a moot point.

      Anyone noticed their regular VHS deck occasionally jumping from one time to another? I found it quite useful for working out where different episodes started on the tape, and some decks have a 'search' function which I guess is based on that principle.

    32. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by beckerist · · Score: 2, Informative

      ^^not related to the parent, but not off-topic^^

      It's HIPAA, not HIPPA, though we in the medical biz do refer to it as the giant hippo on our back!

      Don't get me wrong, patient privacy is important, but these regulations are incredibly strict! If I receive an email containing just ONE identifiable record for a medical patient, I'm to report it and the sender is to be cited. This includes birthdays, phone numbers or billing IDs (which are completely internal to the facility!)

      Two citations and you're canned... Yeah, that's right, send me an email containing a patients phone number and birthday and you are fired, no questions asked.

    33. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by nmx · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's right, send me an email containing a patients phone number and birthday and you are fired, no questions asked.

      Good! Email is not secure.

      --
      "Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try."
    34. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by alcourt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Append only files have not been required in my experience. What is required is that there be no ability to overwrite a previously written file by the team that is sending the log data.

      The one is a way to get the other... at least partially. Physical and electronic security and partitioning of roles gets you the rest of the way.

      Agreed. I just find that the lack of support for append only files makes it hard to use as a solution on most platforms.

      This can be done a number of ways, but the easiest method is to transmit the data in a way that the server chooses the filename, not the client.

      I'm not sure how filenames enter into it, since you don't give the application people access to the log host anyway.

      The solution I'm familiar with receives a datastream and writes to a file. If I allowed the sender to select a filename to write, they could hypothetically corrupt or worse, delete log data. It's a little easier to set up than most solutions to transmit the data securely.

      syslog works for most data, but not all. Linux is one of the only Unix based systems that puts sulog through syslog. The failed logins log is much more difficult, as is the wtmp data.

      There is a "syslog Working Group" that's working on that and other problems. I don't know if syslogng supports any of their proposals yet, though.

      I don't see how this can help. The issue isn't so much how to handle data that has gone into the syslog stream, but how to grab critical log data that doesn't normally enter into the syslog mechanism in the first place. Maybe I am missing something? I am however interested in hearing more about the working group, especially if they are likely to be able to update the standards so that the commercial Unix vendors will be able to seriously implement an improved syslog. Sun's comment on why Solaris 10 didn't have a better syslog was they wanted to, but they felt bound by POSIX. True or not, there is at least the impression by some of the vendors that they aren't allowed to use a better syslog by default. Replacing every single box's syslog would be problematic in larger shops.

      As to writing periodically to a optical media, I wouldn't worry quite so much about that.

      It's very important to be able to talk about your risk exposure profile. When you can say that the exposure to electronic subversion of the logs (regardless of how hard you make that, via electronic security) ends when the data is written to optical disk, you can make a much stronger case for the data being functionally write-once.

      I wouldn't say the risk ends, just that the risk for modification effectively ends. But I very much agree, one needs to look at the threat profile.

      I would instead worry more about the encrypting all that security data while in network transit.

      That would only be necessary if you transmit sensitive data in the logs. For example, if a healthcare company wrote client data to their in-house application server's logs, then the logs would have to be subject to the same security constraints as every other piece of sensitive data. This is as far as I know, but my PCI exposure is tangential, and I haven't read the requirements first-hand.

      Since the logs in question are security logs, my inclination is to always encrypt them just in case sensitive data does enter it. It need not be true credit card data, it could be other items that increase attack exposure. Knee-jerk? Maybe. One thing to think about though, the security logs of one box may not be critical enough to justify encrypting, but the security logs of lots of systems together may be that sensitive.

      Authenticity is also an issue to be concerned with. How do you know that the event that got inserted into the log really came from that box, and not some ra

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    35. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by alcourt · · Score: 1

      sudosh logs all output, and all keystrokes, not a permissible option because if the user for some reason types or views a password or payment card number, that data MUST be encrypted while on disk (sorry, don't recall the section number in the 1.1 PCIDSS offhand). RBAC is for limiting commands, but not for logging. Putting the root password in a sealed envelope is also not a realistic option for many locations considering geographic scattering which means the SAs are rarely in the same city, nevermind building as each other or the boxes. Virtual envelope systems that work have yet to be proven out to me.

      When looking at PCI requirements, one cannot simply ignore the inconvenient items. A reliable method of capturing EUID 0 command history is a difficult problem. I won't say impossible because there are a few ways to do it, but they usually rely on an attestation of the SA that they are not trying to subvert their HISTFILE or some similar method. Capturing too much data is actually worse than capturing too little in some ways.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    36. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by einhverfr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Append only files have not been required in my experience. What is required is that there be no ability to overwrite a previously written file by the team that is sending the log data. This can be done a number of ways, but the easiest method is to transmit the data in a way that the server chooses the filename, not the client. Add a date string into the filename and you can (with a few other details I've worked at but am here waving a wand at) avoid the problem.

      Sure, and append-only is not foolproof. It is just one step in the right direction. Defense in depth.

      syslog works for most data, but not all. Linux is one of the only Unix based systems that puts sulog through syslog. The failed logins log is much more difficult, as is the wtmp data. wtmp data is especially annoying as it is one of the only ways to semi-reliably record both login and logout regardless of login type (including ssh), and can't really handle real time data streaming. The other annoying item is the command line history of all commands with EUID 0. I'm hoping to hear some news soon on a solution to that problem, but it is really difficult, especially since a lot of SAs become root via `sudo -s` or `su` (as opposed to `su -`, which would not modify their HISTFILE variable. Many root shells do not support direct sending of HISTFILE over the network.

      Allowing multiple people to log in as root (through su or otherwise) violates the PCI-DSS requirements according to my reading. In my view the *only* acceptable option is to either limit root to one person (for small environments) or require that everyone use sudo exclusively for executing root commands.

      As to writing periodically to a optical media, I wouldn't worry quite so much about that. I would instead worry more about the encrypting all that security data while in network transit. (Sorry, can't recall if that is a firm requirement of PCIDSS 1.1 or not). Unfortunately, this makes use of syslog a less trivial solution. Authenticity is also an issue to be concerned with. How do you know that the event that got inserted into the log really came from that box, and not some random other server? Traditionally, syslog has not concerned itself with such issues, but a PCI system may care a great deal.

      PCI-DSS only requires that certain information (useful in creating credit card transactions) is encrypted in transit and that this information may *not* be stored in the logs. So logs are not considered to be sensitive enough to require encryption. However, if you need to do this, there are a number of options including IPSec (which will give you the host-based security controls).

      Once the data is on the central logging host, it is already in a state that the author of the data (the SAs for the PCI impacted box) cannot modify it. That eliminates at least in the interpretation of PCI I've been working on, the need for writing to optical media. Immutable is not so much immutable by anyone, but immutable by the server in question.

      Agreed. The main purpose is to prevent an attacker from covering his tracks by screwing with the logs. The PCI-DSS is largely a standard to ensure that people who are processing credit card transactions are not storing overly sensitive data, are using encryption appropriately for somewhat sensitive data that they must retain, and are generally following industry-accepted best security practices.

      The point of the central copy of the logs is so that modification on either side can be readily detected and investigated. But if you cannot trust your central log host to have an accurate copy of the logs because you are receiving log data from anyone who chooses to pretend they are your PCI impacted server, then your central log host does not give you as much value as it may seem. The audit requirements aren't just for making lives miserable, they usually have a valid point behind them.

      When working with PCI, know which DSS you are o

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    37. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by SuperJames_74 · · Score: 1
      I believe you're referring to SMPTE timecode (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers).

      It's actually an industry standard.

      --

      @sshatrack

    38. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by beckerist · · Score: 1

      Oh don't get me wrong, there are some tards out there that will post entire HL7 messages to public boards, completely exposing medical record numbers, social security numbers, even things like allergies, diagnosis and food preferences! In cases like that, I'm glad they get the can. Could you imagine being told you had contracted HIV or some other insidious disease, and suddenly the entire world knows simply because some retard in the hospital's IT decided to share the logs for whatever reason?

      HIPAA is a step in the right direction, and I certainly care enough about my job AND my own privacy to respect that of others... My point is that it's just very easy to violate it, and it can even be the tiniest (seemingly insignificant) thing!

    39. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      I honestly was thinking the same thing. Why "stream" your logs when you can store and forward once they get to a resonable size?

      --
      How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
    40. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Sancho · · Score: 1

      SSH tunnels are probably not the best choice for this. Check out stunnel, though. It was virtually made for this kind of thing.

      Of course, you have to send the logs over TCP, but in practice, that's not a big deal.

    41. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is the physical device capable of writing less than a sector in one go?

      The issue isn't writing less than a sector at a time, it's being able to re-write the sector.

      On a hard drive, you can update the sector, so writing four blocks "ABCD" to an 8-block sector "ABCD----", you can later append "WXYZ" by updating it to "ABCDWXYZ," whereas on an optical disk you'd be stuck with "ABCD----" "WXYZ----"

    42. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a story along those lines - in the very early days of HIV, I was working at SF General Hospital (where it was all happening and causing panic at the time) and got in an elevator with a couple machines Mac SEs (?) a guy gets in and has some hospital papers in his hand and someone has written "AIDS" (they still called it that back then) with a red pen/sharpie in the upper right corner where it was easy for anyone/everyone to see and circled it. It looked like the guy had just gotten the news and was headed to his next appointment, I am sure he had to carry that paper around for days going from appt to appt (and knowing he was going to die soon from something that no on understood and because no understood it, people with AIDS were treated like lepers). Those were strange and horrible times, thanks to compassionate conservatism (Ronnie Raygun thought gay cancer/AIDS was god's revenge against gays and withheld funding while giving billions to defense contractors who built nothing)...

      That said, one fundamental problem with HIPAA is that it was designed by politicians and Big 7-type management consultants, two groups that probably know the least about getting actual work done - they should have included system people, billing people and medical records library/storage/research people in order to attempt to create something that protects patient info but allows people to work for the patient. They can't ever really protect a patient's privacy without extreme measures - for instance, most people in a hospital could tell you what condition you have solely by the name of the doctors you have seen. And, yes I knew a doctor who saw patients, women mostly, for undifferentiated vaginal pain.

    43. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by nuzak · · Score: 1

      > This includes birthdays, phone numbers or billing IDs (which are completely internal to the facility!)

      Asking in all seriousness then: how do you resolve billing issues?

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    44. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HORRAY!
      I pushed for and got exactly what I wanted. Privacy.

    45. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DVD+RW also has finer-grained sector addressing, while -RW has to rewrite larger chunks. However, for pausing live TV, it's definitely DVD-RAM that he's thinking of.

    46. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only on Slashdot can the First Post get modded to +5 for a reply which is so completely Offtopic it's Funny, obviously written by somebody who didn't RTFA, followed by dozens of posts debating the merits of the "answer" without noticing that it's not what the submitter is looking for!!

      Or maybe the FP was just trying to stimulate discussion on why this is not an appropriate solution, getting it out of the way by suggesting it right up front?

      Mod GP "-1, debatebait"

    47. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by columbus · · Score: 1

      I was the primary point of contact with a PCI DSS auditor in my previous job. In my experience, these kinds of compliance issues always came down to a human judgment that was made by the auditor.

      In our case, the following setup was deemed to be compliant:
      * The production server writes logs to a log server using syslogng
      * The log server is located in a geographiclly distant location
      * The permissions on the log files resident on the log server were locked down such that only root could read them
      * We ran AIDE on the log server & configured it to monitor the logs such that it could detect any changes to the logs after they were at rest.
      * We monitored the AIDE logs daily to look for signs of alteration of the production server logs. (Running AIDE against logs generated a lot of noise but it was tolerable)
      * We retained the log records from the production server for a year.

      I am sure that readers will note that our configuration did not truly guarantee that the logs were unalterable. However, it was enough to pass the interpretation of 'unalterable' that we received from our auditor, and that was really what mattered.

      Everything was done Linux & open source.
      Hope this helps.

      --
      friends don't let friends teleport drunk
    48. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      I pushed for and got exactly what I wanted. Privacy.

      --- Anonymous Coward


      Sir, you seem to have accidentally clicked the "Post Anonymously" checkbox, abusing something meant for whistleblowers. I trust you will reply to this with your name.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    49. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      No, it's definitely DVD+R I am thinking of. Part of the reasoning back then was that the DVD+R standard took longer to complete, and thus came to market later than the DVD-R standard in part because of the requirements for more sophisticated recording functionality like efficient pausing.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    50. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by Captain+Cabron · · Score: 1

      Most modern CD/DVD writers implement some form of buffer-underrun protection. Like you note, a custom writer might be needed, but not extremely customized with "custom formatted media."

      Nuclear power plants used to pay in the high hundreds of thousands of dollars for WORM drives with the capacity of a DVD. I'm actually surprised there aren't any OS projects utilizing buffer-underrun protection to turn a DVD?R into a poor man's WORM-like drive.

    51. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by macdaddy · · Score: 1

      A medical business resolve billing issues? That's the funniest damn thing I've heard this month!

    52. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by try_anything · · Score: 1

      Just for your benefity probably since you're the only one who will see it.

      Draconian policies like this are used to protect against people who refuse to change when policies change. At higher pay grades this is not as much of a problem, unless you're dealing with academics, but at low pay grades there are many people who take personal offense every time a policy changes. "I've been doing this job for five years, who do they think they are telling me how to do my job, blah blah blah" and after much threatening and cajoling they start implementing the new policy... but a year later you find out that they followed the new policy for three months and then went back to the old policy, nobody reported them, and now you have nine months of misfiled information, missing and unrecoverable financial data, illegal accounting, or in your case, infringements of HIPAA that result in who-knows-how-much liability for the organization.

      If this sounds weird, let me assure you that it isn't. It's evidently a completely natural reaction for a nontrivial portion of the population, especially after a certain age. Some people feel so pushed around and humiliated by policy changes that they will fight them tooth and nail, endure disciplinary action against them, ignore warnings of termination, and finally end up canned. They'll do this for something as trivial as the way invoices are numbered or the way records are filed. They can't see it in terms of regulatory compliance or consistency across an organization. To them, it's just bullying. The only way to keep the organization out of serious legal trouble is to fire them.

    53. Re:Write them to a DVD jukebox by try_anything · · Score: 1

      Oh, and another thing, when a company comes under scrutiny for infractions committed by employees, there's often no way to distinguish between rogue employees operating under management radar and employees who have been given a wink and a nod by management. Companies should be held responsible for long-term policies systematically implemented by employees, even if they contradict official policy. Ideally, companies would be able to detect systematic noncompliance by their own employees, but for most things, it's only possible to be hypervigilant for a short period and then revert to trusting employees to police themselves and each other.

  2. Syslog by cerberusss · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Good old syslog comes to the rescue. Besides logging locally to disk, also add a line to /etc/syslog.conf to log to a remote machine. That's probably enough read-only for you.

    Don't thank me until you've seen the bill.

    --
    8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    1. Re:Syslog by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Besides logging locally to disk, also add a line to /etc/syslog.conf to log to a remote machine.

      If syslog can write to a remote machine, then a compromised syslog can overwrite a file on a remote machine. I suspect thats not even remotely close to enough read-only.

      As others have suggested, print your logs on a line printer.

      --
      There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    2. Re:Syslog by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 1

      Good old syslog comes to the rescue. Besides logging locally to disk, also add a line to /etc/syslog.conf to log to a remote machine. That's probably enough read-only for you.

      That actually may not be enough.

      The systems I've worked with take it a bit further.

      Once the syslog gets to the remote machine, it is then frequently dumped to an enclave machine behind the remote machine where it is dumped into a database for analysis and the raw logs are burned to cd or dvd on an autochanger.

      The only proprietary piece of the system I saw was the software used to pipe the Windows systems' logs to the syslog server, but there may be open solutions available.

      The rest could be handled by GNU/Linux/BSD and postgres (if you want to do the database part). The system I worked with ran on Solaris.

      --
      A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    3. Re:Syslog by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As others have suggested, print your logs on a line printer.

      But that doesn't really scale very well, and then you have the problem of dealing with retention/storage requirements.

      --
      A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    4. Re:Syslog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm using that approach, but just for myself - I'm not being bothered by river horse and dirty laundry requirements. I wonder if it will be read-only enough when some external party mandates the read-onlyness of the logging.

      I'm not logging to a specific machine BTW: my logs are being broadcast, so I can have my logging machine anywhere on the network segment, or I can have more than one. I suppose this reduces the risk of attempts to break into the logging machine to go change the logs there.

    5. Re:Syslog by a_n_d_e_r_s · · Score: 1

      The remote machine should preferable save the syslog on a WORM device - for example a CD-R.

      Its very hard to tamper with a write once CD-ROM.

      Also it cheaper than the paper fed into a line printer option some people proposed in other threads.

      --
      Just saying it like it are.
    6. Re:Syslog by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 1

      I'm not logging to a specific machine BTW: my logs are being broadcast, so I can have my logging machine anywhere on the network segment, or I can have more than one. I suppose this reduces the risk of attempts to break into the logging machine to go change the logs there.

      Broadcasting your syslogs across a production network is probably not a very good idea.

      Ideally, you have a back-side management network that is separate from your front-side production network. All of your logging/IDS management/network management happens on the management network and none of the sensitive traffic is ever visible on the production network.

      --
      A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    7. Re:Syslog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sure. but what keeps you from making a copy of the CD-ROM with certain info deleted or altered, and putting that in the archives instead of the original?

    8. Re:Syslog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... leaving a clear sign of his breaking in, and the logs up to that point, probably showing his IP and how he got in. Which is what he wanted to get rid of in the first place, I suppose.

    9. Re:Syslog by Boricle · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Probably the same thing that stops you from making scanning in the old print out, modifying, printing it out again and putting it in the stack.

      i.e. Nothing really.

      However, if you have the CD or tapes signed and dated by the ops staff, then shipped to off site security, you've made it harder to falsify.

      The interesting issue is that if you are organized enough, what's to stop you from intercepting the messages on the way to the printer / CDR?

      The only way I could see around this is some kind of trusted computing style initiative.

    10. Re:Syslog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      a compromised syslog can overwrite a file on a remote machine

      Not with a properly configured syslog. You're not supposed to just use a remote logfile, but a remote logging daemon (RFC 3164). That way you can add entries to a remote log, but not change or delete any (unless you make the logfile directly accessible over the network, which I wouldn't recommend).
    11. Re:Syslog by cerberusss · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If syslog can write to a remote machine, then a compromised syslog can overwrite a file on a remote machine.
      I don't think so; the receiving syslog machine will be "add-only" and won't have rights to overwrite files. Of course, you can print your logs and that would be a good second defense. But searching through printed logs manually is a pain in the butt.
      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    12. Re:Syslog by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      Yes, someone could do that. But of course, all sorts of measures should be taken to mitigate that risk. I'm thinking Nagios or Zabbix installations that guard the fact that logging should come in. Hardened machines, firewalls, Tripwire, et cetera.

      But of course, nothing beats a printout on paper.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    13. Re:Syslog by dkf · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're not supposed to just use a remote logfile, but a remote logging daemon. Another thing you can do is to send the logging messages over a non-IP connection (e.g. a serial line) so that even a standard network failure won't disrupt the logging and a hacked machine will continue to generate a track-able log. And the last I heard, you can't unsend bits sent down a serial line.
      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    14. Re:Syslog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And the last I heard, you can't unsend bits sent down a serial line." You can, as long as they haven't been seen at the other side. Just send a masking signal. If a human is listening at the other side, it need not even travel faster than the original signal Backward masking can mask signals with signals send later.

    15. Re:Syslog by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      If syslog can write to a remote machine, then a compromised syslog can overwrite a file on a remote machine.

      Not if you're using some sort of data escrow service like OpenAccess

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    16. Re:Syslog by fbartho · · Score: 1

      not if it's in a input stream only capacity... I admittedly don't know the details of syslog.conf and it's capabilities, but once you can send data to another computer, that other computer can control delete access. The uncompromised computer can just act as an append only log storage facility. I don't know quite how syslog.conf ensures that the logging isn't simply stopped or the source falsified. Maybe someone else can weigh in with answers

      --
      Gravity Sucks
    17. Re:Syslog by fbartho · · Score: 1

      So... what a special vpn for logging? or a totally separate wired network?

      --
      Gravity Sucks
    18. Re:Syslog by mpe · · Score: 1

      Good old syslog comes to the rescue. Besides logging locally to disk, also add a line to /etc/syslog.conf to log to a remote machine. That's probably enough read-only for you.

      A simpler (and older solution) would be to have the syslog file be a printer or paper tape punch. Even have /dev/console be a teletype.

    19. Re:Syslog by arivanov · · Score: 1

      This is actually the standard approach recommended in places like "Building Internet Firewalls" and such. It does nicely with the write-once requirement provided that you have also secured the machine from tampering. Unfortunately it does not do very well with the "read many".

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    20. Re:Syslog by the+unbeliever · · Score: 1

      Commonly known as a backnet, yes.

      Some of my company's bigger customers have their own private backend network for internal data (db queries, backups, etc) and only pass necessary data over their public internet pipe. Not a virtual private network, but a truly private network.

    21. Re:Syslog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or a private VLAN.

    22. Re:Syslog by cerberusss · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hmyeah I agree a line printer is good as an addition, however paper is hardly searchable. I bet one of the requirements would be to have an auditing interface searchable by user, date, et cetera.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    23. Re:Syslog by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 1

      So... what a special vpn for logging? or a totally separate wired network?
      If you have the physical capacity, a separately wired network is more secure, but a vlan or vpn is often more practical. That's always the trade-off, security vs. practicality. The management network is usually a much simpler topology than the production network, so it isn't as bad as it sounds, and it is pretty effective against physical security issues.
      --
      A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    24. Re:Syslog by arth1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why, just tee it with one copy going to the remote syslogd on the remote secured machine, and the other copy being stored locally for easy access. Use the local insecure copy for day-to-day read-many access, and the remote secure copy for archival and legal purposes.

      Yes, this will be write-twice, read-many, but that's much easier to implement than true WORM.

    25. Re:Syslog by karmatic · · Score: 1

      It does nicely with the write-once requirement provided that you have also secured the machine from tampering. Unfortunately it does not do very well with the "read many".


      So burn it to CD-Rs (cheap, they have robotic arms for large-scale stuff) when you have enough logs to bother.
    26. Re:Syslog by kars · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's easy; feed the paper coming out of the printer through some sort of OCR machine.

      --
      Take life easy: one bit at a time.
    27. Re:Syslog by GuldKalle · · Score: 1

      There's nothing to stop you from keeping an electronic copy for searching. It could even include page number references

      --
      What?
    28. Re:Syslog by jrumney · · Score: 1

      If syslog can write to a remote machine, then a compromised syslog can overwrite a file on a remote machine.

      How do you figure that? There is no provision in the syslog protocol for random file access. It's very simple, you can only log messages.

    29. Re:Syslog by SEWilco · · Score: 1

      A dedicated Ethernet cable is also a serial line. Using TCP/IP on it helps ensure the data gets to the other end of the wire. Whether you use direct cabling or a logging-only LAN depends upon your needs, but I rather doubt you have so much logging traffic that it floods a LAN devoted to logging.

    30. Re:Syslog by fimbulvetr · · Score: 1

      Agreed, it's rather stupid, actually. Someone sniffing plain text on the network could see failed logins, successful logins (and infer the times of the day logins are allowed) they type of logins (AD, local machine, ssh, console).

      The commands they ran and infer the software on the machine, the network layout and machine names and thousands of other things that could be used to gather the information needed to compromise the machines.

      Did I mention it's incredibly stupid to broadcast logs?

    31. Re:Syslog by Albanach · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure. but what keeps you from making a copy of the CD-ROM with certain info deleted or altered, and putting that in the archives instead of the original?
      You miss the point. The submitter is not asking for a way to produce a secure write once logging system, he's asking for a way to make a write once logging system that is compliant with the legislation he is operating under.

      While we may be able to see endless faults with any proposed solution that doesn't matter. He just needs to implement one that covers him and the suits above him should they be audited.
    32. Re:Syslog by profplump · · Score: 1

      The remote syslog would have to be compromised for what you suggest; there's no way to seek using the syslog wire protocol -- it's append-only.

      But in a more general sense, if you can't trust the log generator and the log host, there's no way to construct this system at all, even with the line printer you suggest. If we're accounting for a compromised syslog on the remote logging host, then it could simply alter or supress the logs in-flight to the printer; a compromised local syslog could do something similar. Or the program generating logs could be altered to not supply certain logging messages.

      There's no practical defense against any of those attacks other than trying to ensure general system integrity, and printing to paper doesn't buy you anything you wouldn't get with a generic linear media drive with seek disabled, or (if you can stand the buffering for big sectors) optical write-once media.

    33. Re:Syslog by dysk · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The syslog protocol only allows you to write to send data.

    34. Re:Syslog by Nos. · · Score: 2, Informative

      I recently attended a SANS Summit on Logging. Its not about making it impossible to overwrite logs... there's basically no way to do that. Every suggestion here pretty much has a reply to it about how to get around it. Its not a technical problem to solve, its a policy one.

      Given a non-tiny operation, its fairly simple to reach compliance (IANAL). The group that runs the payment gateway is NOT the group that runs the centralized logging system. Use syslog-ng to send the logs to a central server. The payment gateway guys don't get access to the centralized logging server, at least not write access. If you want, store the logs in a DB, and give them read access. They'll still have local logs for troubleshooting and such anyways, so they don't really need it, unless they need to go farther back then the local server logs are stored. Backup the centralized logs regularly to tape, or whatever your backup setup is. If you're paranoid, store checksums in a separate area, email them out, whatever.

      You can't make the logs unalterable. What you do is put policies in place to make sure that they are secure if the infrastructure you are logging is compromised, internally or externally. For example, the systems you are trying to protect don't need full access to your logging servers, port 514 (or whatever you pick) is enough.

    35. Re:Syslog by grimwell · · Score: 1

      I've used NTSyslog with success to pipe Windows event logs to a syslog daemon on a unix box.

      --
      If the govt becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites man to become his own law, it invites anarchy
    36. Re:Syslog by NevarMore · · Score: 1

      I misread that as OCD, but it still fits.

    37. Re:Syslog by alcourt · · Score: 1

      For the most part I agree with you, but I don't want to downplay that there are some real technical hurdles in the PCIDSS requirements that do require actual creativity or money to solve at this time. To me, the hardest problem to solve is the "command line history of all commands executed as root". Keystroke loggers log too much, as do screen scrape loggers.

      One nice thing to see would be a modification of the shell that will log to a specified logfile the command history if the effective UID is the targeted entry, not just the login name. Setting it in an auditable file also allows one to detect when it is bypassed (running a different shell, etc.)

      But yes, most of the compliance points in PCI-DSS and in SOX boil down to "follow good security practice" and "have sane policy", making compliance easy if your management is willing to ensure that security is a concern and policy reflects a realistic approach.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    38. Re:Syslog by Nos. · · Score: 1

      To me, the hardest problem to solve is the "command line history of all commands executed as root".

      Don't allow any logins as root, period. No keys, the password should be unusable. Then you can log everything done via sudo just as you do with your normal logs.

    39. Re:Syslog by alcourt · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about logging in as root? You need to capture the data even if they log in as themselves and do a `sudo -s` or `su` so that they can do the types of SA work that is rather difficult in single sudo commands, the kind of thing I do literally all the time.

      sudo is a good tool, but it has definite limitations.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    40. Re:Syslog by Nos. · · Score: 1

      At no time should anyone be logged in as root, via a key, password, su -, etc.Yes, it can be a PITA at times, but it makes everything trackable. That's the price you have to pay for due diligence.

    41. Re:Syslog by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      True, they are getting cheaper too. Infact you can set up one hell of a home piracy operation for 40K, and the only thing tipping people off would be that the Staples van keeps coming to your house and droping off spindles which when empty stack out of your recycling bin.

      Not that I'd know for sure or anything....

      --
      How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
    42. Re:Syslog by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      How in the hell do you get a comprimised syslog?

      Just curious, not that I know anything about it, but it seems that that machine could only be compromised by physical access.

      --
      How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
  3. Question... What's to stop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's to stop someone from reading in one of the WORM tapes, modifying the log file data and then writing it back to another blank WORM tape and claiming it's the unaltered tape?

    Do all logs have to be encrypted and signed with a seperate super sekret key/cert before being recorded?

    1. Re:Question... What's to stop by beyondkaoru · · Score: 2, Insightful

      i don't know much about the laws/regulations in question here, but yes, there isn't anything stopping someone from making a new 'worm' storage device and claiming it to be new unless there's a third party who will remember identifying information on the data.

      if i really wanted to make sure my archives weren't tampered with, i'd bring my data (in whatever medium, the 'worm' thing wouldn't be necessary to ensure non-tampering, though it'd be good for storage purposes) to a trustworthy and hopefully vaguely computer savvy notary. then, i and the notary would hash the data, write up a form that says "i, name here, declare that on this date data with this hash value, some hexadecimal, was filed. signed, signature".

      storage aside, this means that for someone to tamper with it they'd have to either bribe/coerce/kill people who saw this form (difficult) or reverse a cryptographic hash (even more difficult). so, pick a good notary (or submit the hash value to the gov maybe?) and a good hash function (like a larger sha or whirlpool) and i think you're tamperproof.

      of course, i don't know the regulation so i don't know if this matches the needs of the article.

      --
      the privacy of one's mind is important.
      you do have something to hide.
    2. Re:Question... What's to stop by Barny · · Score: 1

      Hrmm, tfa sounded more like he wanted something that was tamper proof, rather than tamper evident (although evident with knowledge of who changed it would at least give the company a scapegoat).

      Best bet imho is dump it all to a large DVD storage machine (pioneer used to make these, not sure if they still do) and replace the load of DVDs when it gets full, choose good quality DVDs, they degrade over time remember :)

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    3. Re:Question... What's to stop by beyondkaoru · · Score: 2, Insightful

      well, by being 'tamper evident' as you say, you are in fact tamper proof, so long as the data is well stored (and tape drives, cd or dvd jukeboxes, etc can do a good job of this). an iron-clad 'tamper-proof' box is not, in fact, tamper proof if one can simply substitute another iron-clad box in its place. this is the reason that only having a dvd jukebox wouldn't be secure (though again, i don't know what the regulation's requirements are). a nefarious company could simply juxtapose dvd's. remember that the ones who would be interested in tampering with the data are also the same folks who are storing and maintaining it.

      --
      the privacy of one's mind is important.
      you do have something to hide.
    4. Re:Question... What's to stop by Propaganda13 · · Score: 1

      WORM devices are fine if you're talking about external compromise. Even paper documents are vulnerable to internal compromise. I've seen falsified paper documents. To guard against internal compromise, you usually look at remote data storage companies that you can only get a copy of the data if you need it back.

    5. Re:Question... What's to stop by More_Cowbell · · Score: 3, Funny

      /kill people who saw this form (difficult) or reverse a cryptographic hash (even more difficult).

      So you find it easier to kill people than to run computer programs... Remind me not to get on your shit list. :p

      --
      Experience teaches only the teachable. -AH
    6. Re:Question... What's to stop by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      Actually any system you create, can be said to be tamper able by you, even when you go to the extent of providing a simultaneous non repeatable externally derived and verifiable analogue recording (based upon today's technology) combined with digital data to be stored.

      Other than that the only legal way is for you to outsource a certified solution provide by an independent company who is them legally liable for the failure of legally bound write once correctly read many times correctly storage medium.

      It is more of a legal solution rather than a technological solution. Besides if you are the person in the company certifying its reliability you then become legally liable for it (I hope your professional indemnity insurance is fully paid up).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    7. Re:Question... What's to stop by (negative+video) · · Score: 1

      What's to stop someone from reading in one of the WORM tapes, modifying the log file data and then writing it back to another blank WORM tape and claiming it's the unaltered tape?

      The cryptographic checksums escrowed elsewhere, perhaps even printed in a newspaper classified for good measure.

    8. Re:Question... What's to stop by HateBreeder · · Score: 1

      Technically, it's harder to reverse a (good) cryptographic hash function than to kill an individual.

      --
      Sigs are for the weak.
    9. Re:Question... What's to stop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't need to be encrypted. You could use a third-party time-stamping service (e.g. Verisign's). You send them a hash of your data, they attach the current time, sign it, and send it back to you. If you subsequently alter the logs then the hash won't match. Or you can create a new timestamp but the time will be plainly wrong.

    10. Re:Question... What's to stop by Tassach · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as "tamper proof". The best you can ever hope for is "tamper evident" and "tamper resistant". Nothing in the world can protect you against a corrupt system administrator. Even a "two man rule" won't help you if they're working together to beat the system. If you're serious about information security, read The Orange Book .

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
    11. Re:Question... What's to stop by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      Wish I had mod points to throw at you +1 insightful. As long as you showed due dillegence in researching your vendor, you would get sued, then sue them to cover damages if they did'nt protect you. It's all a can of worms though, Data that is intended to be viewed (or created...) is possible to view. It's like your house. There is a privacy lock, and a deadbolt. The deadbolt is to keep people from kicking your door in, but it does nothing to stop them from walking through your glass door in the back of the house. The privacy lock is just to keep the neighborhood kids from coming in while your sleeping w/ the girl next door.

      --
      How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
    12. Re:Question... What's to stop by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Killing people is a well-understood problem space, with a multitude of solutions. Almost anyone can implement onesuch solution in linear time, though frequently with unintended side effects.

      Attacking a strong secure hash function is a poorly-understood problem space, for a sufficiently restricted definition of "strong secure hash function". "[R]un[ning] [a] computer program" isn't so much the issue; writing a computer program which will finish execution with a useful result before the end of the universe is the trick.

  4. use a line printer by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Connect a line printer to mirror the log file as it's created. Use continuous fanfold paper. Get staff to sign and date first and last page.

    Lawyers love paper. (A magistate once asked me if a printout I presented in a case was an "original email". I said it was as close as you could get.) In all likelihood, no one will ever refer to it, so don't worry about that it might take 10 minutes to find a page. Once a month, ship it to a secure storage. For real paranoia, have two printers making two simultaneous copies.

    1. Re:use a line printer by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Wouldn't work in Australia, compliance penalties apply if you can't dredge up the data within a specified period of time. YMMV but it'd be worth checking what the regs actually require. A good reference is this little PDF I found http://www.ironport.com/pdf/ironport_email_complia nce_guide.pdf/

      Personally I'd think about a hardware solution, block replication off-site to a third party registry. When you're talking compliance (especially fiduciary compliance) it's usually easy to come up with the bucks, so dream up something right and propose it.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    2. Re:use a line printer by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Wouldn't work in Australia, compliance penalties apply if you can't dredge up the data within a specified period of time.

      Within a day at most, I'd think. Anyway, you'd have your "ordinary" file copies to make reference to immediately, you'd only have to dig up the papr record to verify it.

      How often would that actually occur? Only in case of company meltdown, a la Enron?

    3. Re:use a line printer by Zadaz · · Score: 1

      How often would that actually occur?


      Once would be enough.
    4. Re:use a line printer by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1

      I was going to post exactly this, the use of continuous paper.

      But please, do make sure to select as small a typeface as technically possible.

      This not only "saves trees", but also costs associated with handling and storing the logs after the fact. Paper piles quickly get both large and heavy! If you can save 15% by running 7pt instead of 10pt, it pays off in terms of square footage in the archive.

    5. Re:use a line printer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Australia, and I was once asked to perform a task on some data for a court case. The data was to be converted from a Microsoft Access database into comma separated values, and then was to have all the linefeeds stripped out and then printed out onto hardcopy, and that was how the data was to be presented.

      I wondered about this for a while, if the court has asked for the data, can you be considered to have provided it if you show up with a shipping container full of hardcopy data and say "there it is", or are you legally required to be a bit less petty than that? I guess SOX has its own set of rules again so there probably isn't a comparison here.

    6. Re:use a line printer by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      Instead, save the files to disk but get the md5 sum of the file and print out the md5 sum. Then you can prove that the logs haven't been tampered with.

    7. Re:use a line printer by ovideon · · Score: 0

      Why is this funny? We used this at my old work, and it worked great.

      The only real concerns are ease of sabotage (although normally the printer will be behind a locked door), equipment failure and fire - and the last ones are relevant for any logging system.

    8. Re:use a line printer by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      I did that once for a court case - not SOX etc. related.

      I sent about 5000 pages through a courier with cash on delivery (Paper, Toner, etc. isn't cheap). I got my money and they got their data, in unusuable form.

    9. Re:use a line printer by Eivind · · Score: 1

      Better yet. Don't print the logs. Print every (hour|day) a single line:

      At (time) the sha1sum of [file] was [sha1sum] signed: .....

      Then proceed to store [file] however you please, make sure to have good backups. There's a problem offcourse, there's nothing stopping you from replacing the paper in the future. Since you produced it once, you can certainly produce a valid-looking similar copy.

      This problem can be solved by having an external, trustworthy, keep or publish a fact. For example, if you published the sha1sum of your logfile as a ad in the NYT, you'd never be able to change it after-the-fact.

      But that's overkill. A (digitally) signed statement would suffice: "We, the [trustworthy-institution] attest to having been presented with the string [sha1sum] by [your-company] at [date] [our-signature]"

      Such a scheme would make it impossible for you to tamper with the logs unless you had either subverted sha1, broken the digital-signature algorithm, or somehow gotten hold of the secret-key of trustworthy-institution. All of which should be significantly more difficult than exchanging one piece of paper for another.

      As it happens, Thawte and others offers such "timestamp signing" where you send them a fingerprint of a file, and they send you back a digitally signed copy of the fingerprint, with a timetstamp for their reception added. (in effect, "we Thawte received [fingerprint] on [date:time] [signature]")

    10. Re:use a line printer by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Once would be enough.

      So if it's only likely to be needed once, why is it a problem to take a few hours to rerieve it? We're talking about accouting records of years gone by, not Jack-Bauer-lives-at-stake urgency.

    11. Re:use a line printer by pla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wouldn't work in Australia, compliance penalties apply if you can't dredge up the data within a specified period of time.

      The hardcopy just "proves" that no one has tampered with the normal (and searcheable) logs. You would never actually use the hardcopy, you would just have it in storage somewhere. You would still use the standard system (or application) logs for day-to-day auditing.

      And if/when you find yourself in court, answering the question "can you prove this as the real logged data?", you can confidently say "yes" and have the dumptruck full of printouts pull up in front of the courthouse.


      Though, personally, I don't see the problem with using a non-rewriteable DVD. Yes, each log entry would take up a full sector, but that still gives you, per disc, 2.3 million log entries of up to 2k each. That should last at least a few days (more likely, a few months) at any company small enough to balk at the cost of an OEM solution.

    12. Re:use a line printer by Mashiara · · Score: 1

      Such a scheme would make it impossible for you to tamper with the logs unless you had either subverted sha1

      Of course one should choose some other hash function, SHA-1 has been broken and while there is no reason to panic yet, using SHA-1 for new applications would not be wise.

    13. Re:use a line printer by The+Mysterious+X · · Score: 2, Informative

      Despite being "broken", in this case, sha1 would be acceptable.

      All SHA1 being broken means is that it is easy to find a collision, or 2 values that match. If you are using it to verify the integrity of a file, then even if a collision is found, it's going to be plainly evident.

      Though it's easy to find a collision, it is *impossible* to choose the content of that collision.

      The importance of SHA1 being broken is when it is used for say, obfuscating passwords. If a system is compromised, and the cracker gets a list of password hashes, they can then generate from that list of password hashes, a list of valid plaintext sequences that would generate that hash.

      So in the former case, the cracker would find a matching set of plaintext to the logfile, but due to the contents of the alternative plaintext probably being a psuedo-random jumble of data, anyone who looks in any detail at the fake log file will instantly see that it is falsified. The cracker may as well create a false logfile, and lie about the hash.

      In the latter, it would allow the cracker to get a list of passwords that could be used to compromise his target systems much more quickly than he could have without them.

    14. Re:use a line printer by amiga500 · · Score: 2, Funny

      The NASD has a requirement that a firm must keep a copy of all email sent and received for three years. We figured the NASD must have the same requirement, so a simple solution would be to forward copies of all our email to the NASD, and let them worry about retaining it. I was proposing solutions for another bank on how they could meet the PCI DSS requirements, and the business users decided it would just be easier if we didn't log anything at all. That we we didn't have to worry about them getting tampered or falling into the wrong hand.

    15. Re:use a line printer by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 1

      Instead, save the files to disk but get the md5 sum of the file and print out the md5 sum. Then you can prove that the logs haven't been tampered with.

      That proves that the logs weren't tampered with, but it doesn't tell you what they were before being altered. That's why you need to print out the full logs anyway.

      Rich.

    16. Re:use a line printer by Eivind · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I know. But the choice of hash is irrelevant for the main point of my suggestion. If you're paranoid you could even include like half a dozen believed-to-be-secure hashes. That way you'd only get to tamper with the logs by finding an alternative string that does not only give meaning as a log-entry *and* hash to the same sha1sum, no, it then also has to hash the same way in all the other hashes.

    17. Re:use a line printer by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1
      Iirc I think you had about four days for any one search. Not just for the rare Enron events, but also for forensic accounting -- auditors with warrants to check for various forms of fraud, in the banking industry at least these sorts of things might happen several times per year. And they kind of have to have the high-end logging capacity, too -- SWIFT entries come in at a rate of several million per day, so DVD's are out. But for smaller firms, botique ISP's etc. they'd probably be just fine.

      There might be a market for people to run little repositories for people -- something like an MQ-Anywhere pipe to your server & disk farm, get MQ installed on your clients machines and get them to dump their logs down the queue to you. Get a few of them and charge appropriately, could be worth a few quid. MQ Series is just a stupid little buffer but it's IBM-robust, runs on pretty much anything and it's trusted by folk. For recall you could give them an enquiry and you write a responder, but it might also be easy enough to just take their request on the web and mail them back a data key. 16GB per key nowdays, add it to their bill.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    18. Re:use a line printer by sjames · · Score: 3, Informative

      Though it's easy to find a collision, it is *impossible* to choose the content of that collision.

      In this case, "easy" means not utterly impossible to accomplish in a lifetime if you have unlimited funds.

      The significance isn't that the new attack is "practical". It's more that given those results, the odds of an even better attack coming along in the next decade or two went up.

      All the same, for a brand new application, why not just use SHA256? That's what Jon Callas meant by "walk, but not run, to the fire exits". No need to panic over data already protected by SHA1 or even to run around replacing all uses of SHA1 this instant, but if you're writing code anyway, why not choose a safer option?

      As you say, you don't get to choose the collision, that's why it's not time to panic.

    19. Re:use a line printer by afidel · · Score: 1

      Quarterly. If it's a control then we have a chance of it being audited by bother internal and external auditors every quarter. We are guaranteed to have every control checked yearly.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    20. Re:use a line printer by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Well also to make it easier every day on your stack of paper place a folder tab with the date on it in the stack so you can search by date easier...
      Also if you are going to print 2 copies you might as well keep the Data file for instant lookup and if it needs to be verified make a program the finds the line of code and how many inches down the stack it is.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    21. Re:use a line printer by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "For real paranoia, have two printers making two simultaneous copies."

      Not paranoid enough - printers in different states.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    22. Re:use a line printer by Mashiara · · Score: 1

      As you say, you don't get to choose the collision, that's why it's not time to panic.

      Actually there was a demonstrated attack (can't remember the URL now) on signing a PostScript document, attacker would make two documents with different content and add non-printing crap to the "innocent" file untill collision then have the innocent document signed and move the signature to the other document, granted this is very different from forging a log line

    23. Re:use a line printer by oliphaunt · · Score: 1

      and ship each copy to a different place...

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    24. Re:use a line printer by rlh100 · · Score: 1

      What a really great idea. No, really. It would be the best way to meet the letter of the law while limiting the intent of the law. 1u3hr is correct, lawyers love paper. You can hold it and read it with the naked eye. But in this application it would severely handicap any fishing expeditions.

      If you are asked for the records and the lawyer doing discovery can pinpoint the time they are looking for, then they will get the evidence they are looking for. But if the lawyer is fishing for some incriminating data, they will have a hard time finding anything. To the lawyer: "And how many shipping containers of records do you want?".

      On the other hand if all of the data is in a machine readable format and they ask for all of the records for the six month period under investigation, then they can use computers to organize and query the data. Slice and dice it into a database, run keyword searches on it, and then query all the related records.

      Even worse is if they ask for specific information. I.e. the records for a particular day, user, or host. If that data is on a tape or disk that has a bunch of other data, other hosts or users on the same day or a complete month of data, then you are giving them fish food to wade through. You have to be careful. I suspect that you can't selectively extract the data you hand over. You have to hand over verifiable chunks, like tapes or disks.

      Paper is great. They want a month of data. Fine that is only half a 40' shipping container. We will send it to the copy shop and have them duplicate it.

      Two cautions though. First, paper can be the only way you store the data. No backup, no archival electronic copies, no support tool stashing the data away, no CDROM in someones desk. If the data is in electronic form, I suspect the requester can demand to get electronic copies. Secondly, paper cuts both ways. If you lawyers are looking for evidence, they will have to wade through the half shipping container of paper.

      What a thought. Paper. Meeting the letter of the law while sidestepping the intent of the law.

      RLH

    25. Re:use a line printer by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Despite being "broken", in this case, sha1 would be acceptable.

      To explain this to a court, you're going to be paying a fortune in legal fees and expert testimony for days of technical argument that will be incomprehensible to the judge and jury, and possibly leave them in doubt as to if this is really guaranteed to be the original data. A printout, signed in ink, leaves much less room to argue, no matter how inelegant. Use your digitally signed data for your internal purposes, the dumb printout for legal.

    26. Re:use a line printer by sjames · · Score: 1

      That's a bit of a special case where you don't get to choose the content of the collision but you can hide it under the rug. It does, however, indicate that it's getting a bit closer to time to "run to the fire exits".

    27. Re:use a line printer by Random832 · · Score: 1

      That proves that the logs weren't tampered with, but it doesn't tell you what they were before being altered. Um... if you have proof the logs were NOT tampered with, then what they were before NOT being altered is the same as what they are now.
      --
      We've secretly replaced Slashdot with new Folgers Crystals - let's see if it notices.
  5. This is a solved problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Write them out to a dot matrix printer.

    No cryptography necessary!

  6. USB Card punch by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 2, Funny

    And you thought there was no use for a USB card punch.

    Hard to change punched cards. Just don't trip with your box of cards.

    1. Re:USB Card punch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I've once seen a car passing me in a highway bend, get unstable, turn over and card boxes dropping on the tarmac out of open doors. The man was in a hurry but I had no urge to collect the cards between highway traffic. There's more to security than data overwritten.

    2. Re:USB Card punch by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it's too easy to swap in a rogue, modified USB card punch. It should be hardware memory mapped into the motherboard. Plug-n-play makes it too easy for someone to 'play' with it.

  7. Tattoos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Start tattooing everyone in the office with data. Encode it in some nice optical way (a la barcodes) for easy reading later.

    Ontop of the obvious benefits, it provides a good deal of job security, if they get fired, they take away some important data, your employees will be thrilled with their newfound sense of security.

  8. Go with commercial hardware solution by jsimon12 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I preface this by saying I know I will get flamed for not recommending Open Source but SOX is a Federal mandate (Federal equals PMITA)

    EMC's Centera is my personal favorite, it isn't cheap but it does exactly what you need and is auditable and recognized by all the third party audit compmaies as well as the Federal government.

    I have worked in IT for 15 years and 5 of those have been for a LARGE financial institution. When it comes to audit and SOX go with something standard, tested and commercial, unless you want to spend the next 6 months explaining to your auditors how your homegrown solution works and then the next 6 months building something new that your auditors do understand (or worse, like losing your job).

    1. Re:Go with commercial hardware solution by feepness · · Score: 5, Funny

      unless you want to spend the next 6 months explaining to your auditors how your homegrown solution works and then the next 6 months building something new that your auditors do understand (or worse, like losing your job). I dunno, I can lose my job WAY faster than 6 months.
    2. Re:Go with commercial hardware solution by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      How about the auditors lose their job, and the Federal government gets back into the business of printing signs for Yellowstone National Park?

      I mean, really.

    3. Re:Go with commercial hardware solution by Unique2 · · Score: 1

      No one has ever been fired for buying IBM^H^H^HEMC.

      --
      No trees were harmed in the posting of this message. However, a great number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
    4. Re:Go with commercial hardware solution by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      I agree with the poster. This is a cost of doing business. Go even a step further. ASK your auditor, or an auditing company how they expect you to do this. Do what they suggest. Get the suggestion in writing so you can refer later if the real auditor doesn't like what you've done. Trying an uncertified or home grown solution is only going to require dozens or hundres of man hours not only to research, set-up, test, and document the process, but another dozen or hundred hours explaining to the auditor how it works. Is a $5000 application not worth all that time wasted?

      If you expect to do this for a Windows system, your basically screwed unless you buy supported software anyway.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    5. Re:Go with commercial hardware solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Centera (CAS in general) is the biggest piece of junk ever. Even the creator of Centera said it's crap and went to start his own company (Caringo). It was built for X-ray images, and for single instancing it hashes at the file level. Makes a lot of sense for X-ray images, but makes no sense for office docs, logs,etc because they have repeatable data within those files, like embedded images. Centera claims it's self healing, internal mirroring, but keeping several copies of the data in place. To back it up...buy another and replicate it, cause it has proprietary APIs to access anything within it. Sounds like EMC's typical ploy to lock you in and push disk.

      The problem with logs is that data has to be verified at a lower level than a file. A log has to be written to several times since data is being appended. You just can't rewrite blocks that have been written to already.

    6. Re:Go with commercial hardware solution by Tenareth · · Score: 1

      Yes they have... when EMC comes in and accidentally deletes a LUN that was active... or you realize that EMC has too many single points of failure, or when you realize that EMC has a horrible support structure.

      --
      This sig is the express property of someone.
    7. Re:Go with commercial hardware solution by Tenareth · · Score: 1

      Agreed, Centera was/is a hack for EMC to make money off of. It's an awful solution in general compared to other players in the game.

      And of course, you have to deal with EMC support.

      --
      This sig is the express property of someone.
  9. How odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It looks like that commercial offering is a piece of hardware with a network API (web service) that you write to which doesn't provide any network APIs for deleting or modifying records. Presumably it has a read-only view of the data.

    Now, assuming that they use harddrives, we all know that someone could extract mount the file system and change records. They could hide their tracks by recalculating cryptographic hashes. So it's simply a lie to say that the only way to modify or indeed delete the data the data is through physically destroying the hardware.

    However having a dedicated hardware for a write-only, read-many system is a good idea, but I can't imagine that this would necessarily be more complex than a locked down box running some web scripting language that appends http post data to a log, or a database.

    If there is more to it then please could someone elabourate on what exactly one must do?

    1. Re:How odd by arivanov · · Score: 2, Informative
      Now, assuming that they use harddrives, we all know that someone could extract mount the file system and change records.

      Not if they have done it properly. If it is designed as an audit solution it is likely to have a hardware crypto module, a device specific key and have all data written out to disks at least signed with it. More likely - encrypted with it. In either case even if the fs is standard you cannot do jack sh*** with it after taking the drives out.

      By the way - implementing the above using OSS is trivial as all free OS-es nowdays provide a TPM API so you can have unique machine keys. In fact you can implement this on top of any Free OS and integrate it with any standard MTA and most applications with minimal effort. The implementation would also most likely pass audit scrutiny as it is trivial. The only sticking point will be the crypto procedures and especially escrow. While proving that the app and the design is compliant is not hard, proving that your CA procedures are solid is a phenomenal pain in the a***. Also, you need to prove that you have an effective escrow and taking a hammer to the log machine does not prevent reading the compliance logs later on. The vendor has already done that and the auditors are happy. Compared to that it will take you on average 4-6 months to get this done with the help of external consluttants. Now, if you have done it anyway for a different project that is an entirely differnet ball game. You always have to prove to auditors that your app does what it says on the tin anyway and the apps are often internal. So one more or one less item is not going to turn the boat if the main sticking points (the CA and the escrow) have already been done.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    2. Re:How odd by Sobrique · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Sort of, but not quite. A Centerra is a Content Addressed Storage thingy. Which basically means it's file identifiers are md5 sums. It's a multi node thingummy too, which replicates stuff about. Is it impossible to tamper with? Well, no, nothing is. But it's pretty hard. Simply because it has implicit 'tamper detection'.

      The API is also geared up so you can choose what 'mode' you want it to operate in. In the most secure mode, the API and OS built in (it's Suse based) won't let you delete anything. Which, basically means you have to pull out the individual drives that 'clip' is stored on, to trash it. Data will be gone, which isn't great, but ... well, pretty much impossible to prevent for any system. Modifying data retroactively though, is much much harder - recreating the right md5sum is a non trivial task. Impossible? Perhaps not, but ... well, EMC have done quite well with 'selling' this product in a 'it will meet your compliance needs' which is considered good enough for our auditors.

      We have 'financial organisation' regulations, for retention of emails, and a Centerra is what we settled on as the solution.

    3. Re:How odd by Sobrique · · Score: 4, Informative
      I should add:

      Centerras don't count as the original post, of a 'cheap solution'. They're not all that expensive by 'enterprise standards' but that's ... well not quite the same as 'affordable for most people'.

      Also, our data centre is under fairly intensive scrutiny and control of physical access. My employer and customer are well aware that physical access means all bets are off, so in order to get physical access you need escorting, and authorization in advance, including documentation of what you're changing, why, and which grid squares in the datacentre you need access to.

      I and the rest of my team are admins on this Centerra don't get access to the datacentre. If we have a need to enter, then we can fill in the paperwork and do so, but ... well, we're based 100 miles away. Most 'hands on' is done by someone else.

      Now, combine that with the fact that each 'clip' (file) is stored 4 times, on 4 separate physical devices (2 of each, on 2 different sites) it would require ... well quite a few people to be complicit to even be able to destroy (or tamper with) data, physically. And a hell of a lot more to do so without leaving great big footprints all over the place screaming to the world what you've done.

      I think you'd need 2 people on each site (one to actually tamper, and one to 'not notice' as he was escorting), plus an admin person offsite to identify which drives need 'doing', on both sites, and to mess with the 'self healing' replication so that one site didn't just restore the other. (You'd have to be fairly quick on the drives too, as soon as one goes down, the healing starts to replicate to other 'spare' drives).

      And then you'd need some other people to mess with the entry logs to site, CCTV footage, change authorization....

      You'd have to be pretty damn serious to pull that off. I mean, it's not even a case of some pointy haired one seeing their career on the line, and demanding immediate sabotage.

    4. Re:How odd by oyenstikker · · Score: 1

      Let's be honest. All you really need to do is pay somebody else enough that you can say, "Look. I spent a lot of money on this. The vendor promised it would work. It isn't our fault."

      --
      The masses are the crack whores of religion.
    5. Re:How odd by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      On a somewhat unrelated point, with regards to SOX in general, this really points out the costs that the current implementation of SOX adds to our costs of doing business. All of this complexity and effort ultimately goes into the cost of the products of a company. Countries that do not implement these types of regulations will have an inherently lower cost of doing business, and production will ultimately flow to those countries.

      I hate the enron debacle as much as anyone, but SOX is a great example of killing a fly with a sledgehammer.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    6. Re:How odd by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      I would be inclined to agree. I couldn't quite give you an exact price tag on how much 'implementing compliance' has cost us, but ... it's pretty horrific how much effort has to be put in to doing that. Just in man-hours alone, before you even factor in the cost of the kit.

      I sort of understand why they did it, but it's just the kind of knee-jerk reaction that's serving to even further increase the competitive advantage that places like China have. Not to mention making my cry and shudder in horror each time I think of it.

    7. Re:How odd by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      There is a certain amount of that, true. I mean, you are paying, to a certain extent, for the fact that the vendor has gone to the effort of 'proving' their kit, and because it's worth a lot of sales to them, they'll actually defend the 'compliant-ness' of it aggressively.

      But as with all such things, auditors seem to care less about what precautions are actually taken, and more that there are precautions, and that there's a paper trail.

    8. Re:How odd by alcourt · · Score: 1

      A lot of SOX compliance boils down to "follow good security practice, have good security policy". Yes, a lot of companies have run into hellish situations, often they are the fault of the company for writing impossible policies (or in some cases, no policy at all), or simply not following what anyone would realistically describe as good practice in security. I've seen many shops that took the view that security was unimportant, they simply built it into their model because the risk was rarely on the company. SOX forces companies to do things correctly for a change. To me, SOX has been the biggest boon in encouraging better security practice by system administrators and management that I've seen in over ten years.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
  10. Is modification detection enough? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    If so, you could use a hardware solution, e.g. a WORM MOD disk rto store periodic crypto-hashes of your logs. Then any changed would be reasily obvious, even if it would not be obvious what was changed.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Is modification detection enough? by Zixia · · Score: 1

      Then any changed would be reasily obvious,

      Good idea, Scoob!

  11. How about by phagstrom · · Score: 0, Redundant

    /dev/null?

    No altering of the data here.

  12. Sometimes, the old ideas are the best by polymath69 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nothing is an unalterable as a line printer which lacks reverse-vertical-paging capability. Just make sure it doesn't run out of ink or paper.

    --

    --
    I don't want to rule the world... I just want to be in charge of mayonnaise.
    1. Re:Sometimes, the old ideas are the best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Paper is easy to delete. They sell the tools at every drug store in I've ever seen. It's called a lighter.

  13. WORM Device by passthecrackpipe · · Score: 2, Informative

    What you need is a Write Once Read Many (WORM) device. Unless EMC started shipping Open Source hardware (hahaha) I don't think you will be able to find this as Open Source. There may be some software solution, but you would most likely need some certification for it anyway ("no, officer, it _really_ is unalterable, trust me....."). Granted, most "hardware" solutions implement WORM through software, but I know from experience that it is impossible to change the data on WORM.

    Technically, a CD-R with some checksumming would work to be compliant - these guys have some more info, but if you need it for formal compliance use, you are better off talking to your friendly neighbourhood storage vendor to save you lots of legal hassle should you ever need the WORM thing for evidence. It is the difference between a lengthy legal process where you have to explain exactly why your homebrew solution is legal and simply saying "talk to NetApp"

    --
    People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
    1. Re:WORM Device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is the difference between a lengthy legal process where you have to explain exactly why your homebrew solution is legal and simply saying "talk to NetApp"
      Buying any premade devices may shield you from some legal problems, but certainly does not absolve you from everything. If you're very unlucky, you will get sued, and can in turn try to sue the manufacturer, who most certainly has excluded any liability exceeding the purchase price in the clickthrough and the shrinkwrap license of the device.
  14. How sure do you need to be? by edashofy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Cryptography, digital signatures, and checksums can only take you so far. They can detect tampering pretty easily. However, crypto can't prevent someone from deleting a file, although by checksumming or signing a whole bunch of files you could at least detect deletion of one of them. Ultimately, if you really want permanence, you need to write it out (as an above poster suggested) to some sort of write-once media. CD-Rs or DVD-Rs would obviously fit the bill here, although one can indeed delete a CD-R by simply throwing it out, of course.

    Another cheap write-only medium is paper; I suppose you could purchase a laser printer (or even a line printer), and have it spit out the logs as they occur. If you kept the printer in a locked transparent box, nobody but people with the keys would have access to the output.

    You could burn the logs onto PROMs as well, that's pretty permanent :)

    Anything on magnetic or flash media can be erased or tampered with somehow, unless the drive controller hardware itself prohibited overwriting existing data. Even then you're relying on someone not being able to replace the drive controller or take the drive apart and diddle the platters/flash chips directly (although I suppose a decent amount of epoxy could thwart this). Any software-based solution can be tampered with in theory. One hacker favorite (which may be a legend or not) is that people used to get root on other people's boxes and then replace their copy of PGP with an instrumented copy. Thus, even the encryption software became compromised.

    For compliance, though, I'm not sure what kind of oversight you have to have. At the end of the day, somebody has to be trusted with these logs, and that person would almost assuredly have the power to destroy them, or at least portions of them.

    1. Re:How sure do you need to be? by JoshHeitzman · · Score: 1

      Anything can be destroyed or altered and as with any security issue this a matter of making the cost of doing so more then anyone is willing to pay.

      All you need to determine if data has been tampered with is a currently unbroken cryptographic hash for the data that has been timestamped and signed by a timestamp authority (or more then one depending on how much you want to tampering to cost).

      Preventing deletion (i.e. total destruction rather then simply deleting entry from a larger file which is merely tampering) of data is matter of having seperate and secure back-ups and the ability to tell when a file has been deleted. This can be handled with cryptographic hash of all of the current signed timestamps for the files so if one goes missing you can tell immediately and retrieve it from the archive.

      --
      Software Inventor
    2. Re:How sure do you need to be? by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      Save data to a hard disk. Put in envelope. Have lawyer time and date envelope. Stick in bank vault with bank time and dating it and not allowing any future access to the device until needed.

    3. Re:How sure do you need to be? by vtcodger · · Score: 1
      CDR? Yeah ... in priniciple

      How long does the data have to be retained? No one seems to know how long CDRs will reliably store data. There seems to be a large gap between user experience with unabused CDRs ... sometimes unreadable after only a year or two ... and manufacturer estimates of many decades.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    4. Re:How sure do you need to be? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Any software-based solution can be tampered with in theory. One hacker favorite (which may be a legend or not) is that people used to get root on other people's boxes and then replace their copy of PGP with an instrumented copy. Thus, even the encryption software became compromised.

      Isn't that what stuff like AIDE is for?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:How sure do you need to be? by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2, Informative

      Anything can be destroyed or altered and as with any security issue this a matter of making the cost of doing so more then anyone is willing to pay.
      Absolutely true in principle, but in practice it can be hard to put a proper dollar value on any small piece of information. Here's an extreme example. Suppose you have a manufacturer that makes widgets that are worth $N. They implement access controls on the doors, so they know who is coming and going. If one employee can carry M widgets, then they can estimate the value of one record at $N*M. Now, let's say that one day an employee comes in during the off hours, kills another employee, then decides to spend $N*Z dollars to remove the record that he was there, where Z >> M.
      The trouble is most times we figure out what the data might be worth to us, not taking into account what it might be worth to the bad guys. The opposite scenario is more likely, where a company spends much more to protect a piece of data than it would ever be worth. In that case they are wasting money that would be better spent doing real work.

      The best thing you can do with your cryptographic hashes is to have copies away from the actual logs. Make sure that the people who have access to the remote hashes are different than the people who have access to the logs. Then it takes at least two people working together to muck things up.
      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    6. Re:How sure do you need to be? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course write once media can be "deleted" too. Millions of AOL CDs have been "deleted" for example.

      The primary advantage to WORM media is that it transfers the problem from the "magical realm" of computers where lawyers and financial types believe they can even have the impossible just by rubbing a lamp to the realm of physical objects with inventory control, locks and key, and other attributes that they understand much better.

    7. Re:How sure do you need to be? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 0

      You could burn the logs onto PROMs as well, that's pretty permanent :)

      Actually it is possible to overwrite the data stored on a PROM. Once a bit has been altered you can't change it back to the original state, but you can set the remaining bits to the same value, thus eliminating any data previously encoded there.

      11111111 - Original state
      01000001 - Data stored ("A")
      00000000 - Data overwritten

      Consequently PROMs are not generally tamper-proof. For that matter I wouldn't stretch their tamper-evidence too far, since it's possible to change e.g. any digit to a zero purely by clearing bits ('0'..'9' -> 0b0110000..0b0111001) -- although you could fix that by adding checksums.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    8. Re:How sure do you need to be? by JoshHeitzman · · Score: 1

      The worth to us is all that matters. No security system is unbreakable, so we can never assume it won't be broken. What we need to be accurate about is how much it will cost us if it's compromised. Many things don't cost very much when compromised so they have minimal to no security around them at all, but they are frequently insured. Insurance, with an appropriate deductable, can be make use of to mitigate the risk of the cost of damages from a major breach from a sufficiently motivated attacker. In your example of the murder, the cost of the breach is only that of the investigation into the missing/altered records (if they are actually noticed) since no widgets were actually stolen. Regarding the original posters issue the cost of the breach is the cost of being out of compliance, which is likely something the companies lawyers would have to estimate.

      --
      Software Inventor
    9. Re:How sure do you need to be? by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      I see your point, but I'm not sure I was clear.

      Insurance and security are both forms of risk management that go hand in hand.
      If you value an asset at $100,000 and apply appropriate risk management, then any attacker that values that asset at less than $100,000 will ignore it. If on the other hand he evalutates it at $1,000,000 then there is a good chance he will have your asset.
      Insurance might pay off, and if it was properly valued, you won't be too far behind. If he burns your business to the ground in the process, you'll probably be behind, because insurance rarely pays full value. (to discourage owners of property from torching their own businesses to get a payoff)

      Odds are your insurance company uses statistics and experience to evaluate the actual risk that your asset will be lost. This will include whether anyone wants to steal your asset, and the likelyhood that an employee will go postal anytime soon. If your insurance bill is way out of line, you need to re-evaluate your security, because they think it's likely to be breached.

      There are assets that are evalutated at infinity, or incalculatable. Among those are most anyone's own life, and things like nuclear secrets. In those cases, we don't look at the cost to produce the asset, or it's resale value, but only the risk that the asset will be lost.

      In the case of your own life, how much you spend on locks, alarm services, and attack dogs, should be a function of how dangerous an area you live and work, rather than your "worth". Your net worth only dictates how much you *can* spend on security, not what you should. (If you should spend more than you can, life will be hard)

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  15. If you use Linux... by TerminaMorte · · Score: 0

    If a linux machine is storing these logs, just use 'chattr +a filename'. This is append-only, so you can still write to the logs but never alter/delete them.

    1. Re:If you use Linux... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never? As in 'chattr -a filename' never?

    2. Re:If you use Linux... by BuR4N · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the point, the problem is to stop people/programs to tamper with the log once its written...

      --
      http://www.intellipool.se/ - Intellipool Network Monitor
  16. Line Printer won't scale by jsimon12 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you only had a single machine or maybe even a couple lightly used boxes a printer might work. But even that would be near impossible to go back and sort through and if you ever ran out of paper or ink you would be SOL. And trust me the last thing you want is to to be SOL when it comes to SOX. If you have the money don't half ass an audit solution.

    1. Re:Line Printer won't scale by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      The real, practical solution to all this is to repeal Sarbanes-Oxley.

    2. Re:Line Printer won't scale by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, so you have a law requiring accountability for companies, most of which break the law constantly and again when they try to cover it up, and it gets to be too much of a burden on these completely dishonest companies, yes lets just repeal the law.

      Moron

    3. Re:Line Printer won't scale by Belacgod · · Score: 1
      Because we have to do something, doesn't mean we have to do that.

      Laws passed because something needs to be done, or because there oughtta be a law, or the like, generally work very poorly.

    4. Re:Line Printer won't scale by fimbulvetr · · Score: 1

      You're able to make suggestions. You were also able to make suggestions when your congressmen drafted it.

    5. Re:Line Printer won't scale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You're able to make suggestions. You were also able to make suggestions when your congressmen drafted it.

      Having had the opportunity to speak to those who actually drafted it, it was never expected to be made into law in its current form. They fully expected its provisions to be weakened and gutted long before approval so the were made stronger & more extreme than thought neccessary; but then Enron appeared and nobody wanted to be the guy weakening fraud legislation in the wake of that. They grabbed the existing bill and rushed it into law.

      Twist of fate and timing.

    6. Re:Line Printer won't scale by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      Not if you don't read every law that gets drafted. I don't know one voting american who has the time to do that asside from his/her non-political real world job.

      --
      How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
    7. Re:Line Printer won't scale by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

      Interesting. What were the intended provisions then?

    8. Re:Line Printer won't scale by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Moral behavior can't be legislated. And Sarbanes-Oxley is just a big federal power grab. The government has no fucking business serving as an auditing agency. After the scandals that 'inspired' it, business could underwrite everything that Sarbanes-Oxley does, and would have to if there wasn't a bunch of government hacks doing so. It was just a big piece of populist bullshit and now is just another layer of government.

    9. Re:Line Printer won't scale by jesboat · · Score: 1

      Store the logs in a standard on-disk format on a highly secured machine ("machines"?) with backups and such. Then, just print hashes of the logfiles on the printer.

  17. Syslog + chattr by ethzer0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I use syslog-ng to relay information from several different datacenters to a centralized and secure location hosting all of the syslog information. Each DC has its own syslog-ng system acting as the local relay, transporting syslog information from local clients using TCP over a VPN to the centralized host. The logs are written on the central syslog sever organized by on date and hostname, and each file that is created is then assigned an 'append-only' bit using chattr. It works really well.

    1. Re:Syslog + chattr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      There's a difference between *you* knowing no-one has altered it and the feds knowing that *you* haven't altered it.

  18. The Linux way by professorfalcon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    tail -f thelog.txt >> /mnt/cdrom/thelog.txt

    1. Re:The Linux way by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      That's not 'Linux.' I was running tail on Solaris and OS/2 boxes before Linux would run on anything but MFM hard drives.

  19. FreeBSD to the rescue by stox · · Score: 3, Insightful

    FeeBSD supports append only files via the chflags command.

    --
    "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    1. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by moosesocks · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, but the tricky thing about this situation is that it's a "who will guard the guards" type of deal.

      If the root user can set that attribute, he can just as easily unset it, modify the data, and clean up after himself before re-setting it.

      Remotely spitting your logs out to a line printer managed by a trusted 3rd party would seem to be a reasonable solution.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    2. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by feargal · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the tricky thing about this situation is that it's a "who will guard the guards" type of deal

      With FreeBSD (and other BSDs) there's a mechanism called "securelevels" which limit the operations which can be performed, depending at what level you are at. The levels can only be increased, not decreased, and at higher levels, flags can not be changed, so once you raise your system to that level, then the kernel will not allow the file to be tampered with. Of course, at boot-time, the attribute can be
      changed, but that's the only window for abuse, and it should be a lot more manageable, especially if you're also replicating logs to remote machines and generating checksums.

      --
      "A goldfish was his muse, eternally amused"
    3. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just two points: 1) modload evilmod 2) /dev/wdxx

    4. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by feargal · · Score: 1

      They're not really points, they're just words.

      securelevel 1 prevents loading or unloading of kernel modules. I'm not sure what your other "point" is.

      --
      "A goldfish was his muse, eternally amused"
    5. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't think securelevels might prevent modules being loaded until after I posted.
      Does it stop access to devices as well? (That's the second point...)

    6. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually, no. The root user cannot unset system immutable flags. They can only be removed by booting the system in single-user mode. It's an extremely cool system and I was surprised nobody recommended it higher up in the comments.

    7. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a point for you, FreeBSD doesn't support my motherboard and Linux does. Now do the local gene pool a favor and fuck off.

    8. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by feargal · · Score: 1

      At level 2 it prevents raw writing to devices, they can still be mounted, but they cannot be unmounted.
      Of course, you also have to protect your start-up scripts and config files, but it's certainly adds another layer of protection.

      No security is ever perfect, the best you can hope for is that it takes just long to get through that the cops turn up in time.

      Corrollory: The cops always turn up seven minutes after the crime has been completed.

      --
      "A goldfish was his muse, eternally amused"
    9. Re:FreeBSD to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're using FreeBSD, then you may as well use the Audit subsystem (an implementation of Sun's BSM API/file format) which can produce much more detailed audit records than syslog normally provides.

  20. write checksums only to RO media by DanMc · · Score: 1
    These ideas are still a hardware based solutions, but cheap and easy. Once every X seconds, write a checksum to a CD-R or DVD+R media. If the logs on your traditional magnetic disk are altered, you'll know. Depending on how much you can afford to lose, make X smaller. (I haven't read the new requirements, but I assume there's a tolerance of some kind) Another very certain method would be to write to a 1-way firewalled magnetic disk. e.g. copies of the magnetically stored logs are shipped (or just checksum packets) to a firewalled server with a hard disk. They're saved, but no traffic whatsoever is allowed out from that log box. Reading the logs requires physical access, and some kind of human oversight. (like launch codes that need 2 or more keys to access).

    Your day to day log checks, like "any errors in last night's backup?" could be done live against the non-firewalled copies. When lawsuits, audits, or questions hit (and at some frequent interval), compare the live logs to the 1-way physically secured ones to make sure your live logs aren't being altered.

  21. One-way data cable by rjh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At USENIX/EVT06 last year a team from the University of Iowa presented a cheap one-way data cable you could make with off-the-shelf parts from Radio Shack. Total cost is about $5 (for bulk, maybe $10 if you're buying single units) and it is provably, auditably, one-way. It was originally developed for electronic voting, to allow for counting computers to communicate with webservers that post election results. An attacker compromising the webserver cannot attack the counting computer, because there is literally no return path.

    It works with very high reliability up to about 9600 baud.

    You may be able to use this to your benefit. Have an isolated system air-gapped from the rest of the network which listens for log events on a one-way data cable. While you're no longer guaranteed to be safe (since if a logging PC is compromised, an attacker could send compromised data to the syslog PC and perhaps cause some sort of mayhem), but the lack of a return path makes interactive attacks infeasible.

    ObDisclosure: I am a graduate student at UI and know the guy who invented the data cable, although I am not associated with the gadget.

    1. Re:One-way data cable by PeterBrett · · Score: 1

      At USENIX/EVT06 last year a team from the University of Iowa presented a cheap one-way data cable you could make with off-the-shelf parts from Radio Shack. Total cost is about $5 (for bulk, maybe $10 if you're buying single units) and it is provably, auditably, one-way. It was originally developed for electronic voting, to allow for counting computers to communicate with webservers that post election results. An attacker compromising the webserver cannot attack the counting computer, because there is literally no return path.

      It works with very high reliability up to about 9600 baud.

      Ah, the old "RS232 cable with the RX conductor snipped" trick. So, how does this help if you've got 20 servers?

    2. Re:One-way data cable by rjh · · Score: 1

      (a) snipping RX doesn't make the cable auditable or provable.
      (b) serial cards are cheap.

    3. Re:One-way data cable by befletch · · Score: 1

      Don't know about any of this HIPPA stuff, but Bellovin mentions snipping the TX line on a network cable (presumably ethernet) in his 1992 paper about attacks on att.com entitled, "There Be Dragons." You can find a PDF off of this page: http://www.deter.com/unix/. Top of page 6. Presumably ethernet would get you a little more bandwidth than serial.

      I also remember reading about some NSA (or similar) machine that someone had to feed data to. It did reply when data was sent, but the only reply it ever gave was some sort of OK packet. Maybe someone else has more details.

      If I had to do some legally mandated logging, I would definitely use something certified for the job. But for just hacking around, there are some interesting ideas out there.

      --
      If you say, "now I'll be modded down because of X", I'll happily oblige.
    4. Re:One-way data cable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Optocoupling RX and physically grounding signal ground, on the other hand, might make the cable a touch more convinving. Physical security is another excercise, though.

    5. Re:One-way data cable by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Funny but I was thinking exactly the same thing.
      For 20 servers? Actually that would be almost as simple.
      Get a bunch of network serial servers. Modify each one so that RX conductor is snipped.
      Attach the servers to a private network to your logging machine.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    6. Re:One-way data cable by PeterBrett · · Score: 1

      (a) snipping RX doesn't make the cable auditable or provable.

      I'm not sure why not. If you make the cables up with a red connector at one end (the server) and a green connector at the other (the logging box), and leave the server's RX conductor physically connected to the shield at one end and floating at the other, that is provably a one way cable!

      Of course, the ultimate provable one-way cable is a piece of coax which is connected to a D connector with the conductor to the TX line. I don't see how you can get any more one-way than that (especially if you opto-couple as the other gentleman suggested).

      (b) serial cards are cheap.

      Relative to what? Last time we evaluated using RS232 for an industrial control application, we found the hardware to be so expensive that we went for the (much more complex and much less expensive) CANbus option.

    7. Re:One-way data cable by rjh · · Score: 1

      It is not a provable one-way data cable unless you can also prove the serial port drivers on both sides aren't doing something hinky to get around the snipped wire. That explodes the amount of trusted code in the system.

      It is also not an auditable one-way data cable unless you build taps into the RS-232 cable, and can somehow prove that those taps truly reflect the contents of the cable as opposed to whatever the system designers want it to reflect.

  22. Write-Only Memory by jmv · · Score: 4, Funny
    1. Re:Write-Only Memory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's all well and good, but have you checked how expensive a quality 8 gigabit WOM chip can be?

    2. Re:Write-Only Memory by karmatic · · Score: 1

      That's all well and good, but have you checked how expensive a quality 8 gigabit WOM chip can be?


      That's why you use a software WOM implementation - /dev/null.
    3. Re:Write-Only Memory by otie · · Score: 1

      I like how the wiki article has /dev/null in external links.

  23. TimeStamps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just my 2 cents ....
    Couldn't you add a timestamp to each log entry issued by a certified (and preferably external) time stamp server?

  24. Tamper evidence not tamper proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At a company I once worked for, we used a scheme whereby every entry in the audit log (database) had a hash of the entry's contents, which also included the previous entry's hash. This made tampering with the audit log evident when the hashes are recalculated--a change in one entry would throw all subsequent entries' hashes out of whack.

    Note that this made the log tamper evident, not tamper proof which is a different ball game entirely.

  25. Why not store it in a version control system by Ptur · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would dump it in GIT or the likes.... any change of it will be recorded ;) Seriously, many version controlling systems already contain the data integrity and authenticity checks that you need

    1. Re:Why not store it in a version control system by Gazzonyx · · Score: 1
      This is in line with what I was going to say - I think git uses MD5, no? I was going to say md5 or sha1 the log after each log write (depending on how frequently it logs, you don't want to DOS yourself when everyone logs on at 9:15 AM) and then if the integrity of the logs is ever questioned, cut the log at the time stamp of a write and md5 or sha1 it again to see if it matches up. Although, trailing '\n's might screw it up if you're not careful.


      Should be fairly easy to script, and no one has to know if they've been detected altering the logs until after you've figured out what they've done. I don't like crackers with an itchy trigger finger to know how much I know, until I want them to.

      --

      If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

    2. Re:Why not store it in a version control system by jimicus · · Score: 1

      How do you guarantee that nobody, no matter how determined, can possibly have interfered with the data that's on the underlying disk (and thus what the version control system returns when queried about a file's history)?

    3. Re:Why not store it in a version control system by MostAwesomeDude · · Score: 1

      Git, at least, was designed with this in mind; every commit into a Git branch depends cryptographically on all prior commits, using a digital signature. Tampering with any one previous commit requires resigning that commit and all that follow; you could verify a branch's integrity with a copy of the list of commit hashes.

      --
      ~ C.
  26. Filesystem level ? by bytesex · · Score: 1

    Are there no modifications possible of standard filesystem code, say ext2, to create an append-only filesystem ? You can pass O_CREAT but not O_TRUNC to a open(2) call, and you cannot do lseek(2) (or you can do lseek, but only to EOF, or you can do lseek, but only to read - as soon as you write, your pointer moves to EOF). It could also be a mount option next to read-only and read-write. Then, once a month, under four eyes only, you copy the lot to a tape/DVD/paper/your mom's forehead, remount in read/write mode and wipe, and remount in append mode.

    --
    Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
  27. SELinux by amorsen · · Score: 1

    People have only mentioned hardware solutions so far (apart from a few useless ones like chattr). You can do this with SELinux, in a way so that it requires a reboot with console access to do anything about it. It may not be enough for you, but it's enough for some people.

    --
    Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    1. Re:SELinux by rpratt · · Score: 1

      Most trusted systems allow you to set up kernel enforced append only files. If you are on Solaris you could use Trusted Extensions or PitBull Foundation. AIX also has a trusted version (PitBull on 5.x). A lot of the other HIPAA requirements are met by features that come along with a trusted OS like SELinux/TS/PitBull. These platform based solutions aren't widely known about, and thus not used very much...but they do work.

  28. This request is impossible. by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Given sufficient resources, time, and dedication, ANY log can be altered.

    If the "unalterable" log is maintained in software, it's a comparatively simple matter of hoisting it up on a VM. Since we're presumably talking about white-collar crime, it's a fair bet they have or can get root access to the machine to install the VM and rootkit to hide it. At that point, the CEO can do anything and the system can't fight back. Capture passwords of people logging in, alter data, you name it.

    A hardware system would be more robust, but still vulnerable. I imagine the most likely attack vector would be Man in the Middle - Just take over the box that guards/drives the logger machine.

    1. Re:This request is impossible. by smallpaul · · Score: 1

      A hardware system would be more robust, but still vulnerable. I imagine the most likely attack vector would be Man in the Middle - Just take over the box that guards/drives the logger machine.

      Why is SSL not sufficient to overcome a man in the middle attack?

    2. Re:This request is impossible. by hazem · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Given sufficient resources, time, and dedication, ANY log can be altered.

      What really matters is if there is any case law that actually interprets the laws and provides standards for due diligence.

      The law might say "unalterable" or "lasting indefinitely" we all know there are practical physical limits - given enough time, anything is alterable and nothing lasts forever. We could come up with outrageous methods like using satellites with lasers to etch logs on the surface of the moon, but there's not much point in going to such expense until the case law suggests that is what is needed to be "due diligence".

      Until you have that case law each organization will simply have to do a cost x risk analysis and determine how much they're willing to risk in order to "do enough" to keep out of trouble with the auditors. Something like:

      chance of being audited x cost of failing an audit vs. cost of maintaining an "unalterable" logging system

      Then you just wait to see what organizations get skewered and adjust your analysis and practices accordingly... and just hope you're not the first to get audited. OR... we can work on a way to etch logs onto spheres of aluminum that are then launched into orbit so they can be read with a telescope. Though that will probably lead to an increase in insurance premiums.

    3. Re:This request is impossible. by pilot1 · · Score: 1

      An SSL certificate has to be signed by a CA, Verisign for example. There's nothing stopping someone from telling the system creating the logs to accept certificates from another CA (yourself), and using this CA to sign the man in the middle's SSL certificate. SSL won't provide any protection when the attacker has access to the software involved.

    4. Re:This request is impossible. by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      Well, the gov -could- provide a signed timestamp service. You send them some text, and they reply with the text + timestamp, digitally signed by their secret key (they can change the key every day [or every few minutes?] if they want).

      Would probably take like 5 minutes, and 20 billion dollars in contracting costs, to setup a CGI script like that.

      In fact, they could have one per agency (with a requirement that you get at least five signatures from different timezones/states).

      You can take all sorts of hashes of your data, and get it signed by the government (with timestamp) every 5 minutes, if you want. Then you cannot alter the data (or it would be very obvious to everyone).

      Obviously that wouldn't prevent someone from just plain deleting the whole lot. But then someone could throw away all the CDs (or `lose' tapes...) anyway. ie: If you actually -do- have data, it would be pretty easy to verify when it was created.

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    5. Re:This request is impossible. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the general goal here is to prevent alteration without access to the hardware, ie. a physical interlock.

    6. Re:This request is impossible. by mysidia · · Score: 1

      What about complete destruction of the log?

      A possible attack model is someone breaking into the vault that houses the logging hardware and burning it.

      I think the best bet is for the system logging an event is to independently log the same encrypted message to multiple geographically diverse logging systems, maintained by separate "logging service" vendors, with no single individual having access to more than one of the systems.

      Presumably no-one can break into all the vaults and destroy the write-once media, because no one person has all the keys, or the ability to order a log system maintainer to quietly let them in the sealed box holding all the completed logging media.

    7. Re:This request is impossible. by smallpaul · · Score: 1

      If we presume that the logging machine is compromised then of course all bets are off. But that's not what the law is about. The point is that if the machine is function as it should then business users should not be able to change data retroactively. Nobody is talking about changing the basic laws of physics and computer science.

    8. Re:This request is impossible. by pilot1 · · Score: 1

      The logging machine doesn't have to be compromised. The machine with the actual logs just has to _think_ that it's sending logs straight to the logging machine, when it is actually sending them to a man in the middle.

  29. Guy Fawkes Protocol by LilBlackKittie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Some of the work I do may require something like this, so I'm considering implementing Guy Fawkes over syslog.

    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/fawkes.pdf

    From the paper:

    6.2 Tamper-evident audit trails

    It is a well known problem that an intruder can often acquire root status by using well known operating system weaknesses, and then alter the audit and log information to remove the evidence of the intrusion. In order to prevent this, some Unix systems require that operations on log and audit data other than reads and appends be carried out from the system console. Others do not, and it could be of value to arrange alternative tamper-evidence mechanisms.

    A first idea might be to simply sign and timestamp the audit trail at regular intervals, but this is not sufficient as a root intruder will be able to obtain the private signing key and retrospectively forge audit records. In addition, the intervals would have to be small (of the order of a second, or even less) and the computation of RSA or DSA signatures at this frequency could impose a noticeable system overhead.

    In this application, the Guy Fawkes protocol appears well suited because of the low computational overhead (two hash function computations per signature) and the fact that all secrets are transient; this second's secret codeword is no use in forging a signature of a second ago.

    1. Re:Guy Fawkes Protocol by mrogers · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell you don't need Guy Fawkes to prevent someone from modifying earlier signatures. Just establish a shared secret in the usual way (eg station to station), and each time you use the secret, hash it and overwrite the old value with the hash. That way even if someone can read the current value of the secret from memory, they can't calculate any of the previous values. (If you're worried about the hash function getting trapped in a cycle you can XOR the secret with a non-wrapping counter before hashing it.)

    2. Re:Guy Fawkes Protocol by LilBlackKittie · · Score: 1

      You're right that creating a hash chain like this can be used to establish a sequence of time, or rather a sequence of chronology -- "this happened before this, which happened before this...". They could be used as secret keys for some private-key cryptosystem (similar to PFS in IPsec), but it won't deliver the nonrepudiation required of an unalterable log.

      The problem is that for an unalterable log being stored on disk, you can't just store ( x1, audit1 ), ( h(x1), audit2 ), ( h(h(h1)), audit3 ), ... Nothing is protecting the data items audit1-audit3. If you can get "root" on the log server, you could change audit2 to whatever you like, and the tampering would be undetectable.

      Guy Fawkes protects the hash-chain and the audit message, and that means if you want to tamper with one message then you have to intercept and modify the hash chain and future messages... forever.

    3. Re:Guy Fawkes Protocol by mrogers · · Score: 1

      I don't believe Guy Fawkes provides long-term nonrepudiation, because all the passwords are eventually revealed, so an attacker can change everything except the first two blocks, which are covered by the initial digital signature. Alice doesn't initially know whether she will be sending "foo bar baz bam" or "foo bar baz quux", so it must be possible to produce valid signature chains for both files using the same initial signature. Only Alice can produce a valid signature chain during the transmission, but anyone can do it after the fact: block i is only nonrepudiable until block i+2 is transmitted, unless I've misunderstood the protocol (which is likely!).

    4. Re:Guy Fawkes Protocol by LilBlackKittie · · Score: 1

      Correct, (nearly) all the secrets get published. But at any point in time, there is still one secret which has not been revealed: the secret which, when hashed, matches the value in the last published message. Because the attacker doesn't know this, they have to intercept the next message sent and modify it ... and because that message will have an unrevealed secret, they will also have to intercept and modify the message after that (and so on).

      If that last not-yet-revealed secret is lost/destroyed, then the chain cannot continue any further. In this eventuality an attacker could go back and try tampering with the audit trail as all secrets up to that point have been revealed.

      Perhaps an approach might be to use GF to build a "signed" log-file, and then after say a day, take the last secret in that chain and commit it to some sort of cryptoprocessor/tamperproof hardware, or maybe N-of-M secret share it and send it to some "trusted" third parties (the last message in the log could be the "forward authentication" of the first entry of the next log file). In the event the logfile's authenticity being questioned, the "last secret" could be reassembled and the last message then validated. By making this an "offline" process, one into which the attacker has presumably not inserted themselves, any cheating will be detected. Now all secrets have indeed become known, and tampering with the past can take place. But I guess if things are at this stage, there must be a hardcopy of the logfile in question, bagged up in an evidence locker somewhere, ready to be united with the documented and witnessed process of its authentication and taken to court. :)

  30. Use a GIT repository by HRogge · · Score: 1

    GIT is the sourcecode management system for the linux kernel and it has a number of advantages for you:
    - GIT use a SHA1 hash for checking the integrity of files, so you can be sure that you got the right file into your repository
    - a GIT "version tag" is a SHA1 has over the whole history of the repository. Noone will be able to change anything below the "version tag" without changing the hash
    - GIT supports signing checkins with PGP signatures, so it's clear who inserted new files into the archive.

    Just burn the GIT repository on a CD or tape every week and keep the SHA1 hash tag for every day at a secure site on paper.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(software)

  31. Clicky by mritunjai · · Score: 2, Informative

    WORM media with HIPPA compliance in mind...

    WORM on wiki

    --
    - mritunjai
    1. Re:Clicky by pankkake · · Score: 1

      Please. Wiki is a technology, not a website. The website you are talking about is named Wikipedia.

      --
      Kill all hipsters.
  32. From Experience by Evets · · Score: 5, Informative

    I honestly don't know about DSS or SOX, but I have had plenty of fun with HIPAA.

    Unalterable logs as a matter of compliance does not mean "absolutely unalterable under any circumstances". There should be no way for an end user to modify audit trails. There should be no preconceived way for an administrator to alter audit trails - i.e. no utilities for doing so. That does not mean that an admin can't go directly into the DB and alter the data from behind the application layer.

    Under every circumstance when I have run into audit logs involving HIPAA compliance, they have been written by an application directly into a SQL database (oracle, ms sql, informix, and one time db2). It used to be that they were written in a fairly easy to decipher format within a single text column on a per record basis - which made for a fairly-difficult-to-alter audit trail because within that easy to decipher format were non-printable characters that you would at least have to know to look for them. With current implimentations, however, the records are stored in a separate table with a many-to-one relationship with the audit-required records, in varchar fields, as plain text - much easier to alter or get rid of single entries. There is still a level of obfuscation as far as table names and column names but thats really a side effect of other things that are going on.

    These systems have been reviewed by auditors and certified as compliant. In the older system, there was no application interface to delete audit records. In the newer system, there is an application interface to delete records in any given application table - and therefore there is one for the audit tables as well. Admin level access is required to delete or alter the records, though.

    Personally, I would expect more as far as HIPAA compliance goes - from both a customer standpoint and an auditor standpoint. My experience (and it is pretty extensive across several high profile enterprises) - is that the customer will demand a better system only when the auditors demand a better system. I haven't run into an auditor yet who has even given more than a casual glance at the 'back door' scenario. I suppose it's because there is no true way to keep things absolutely secure and application level audit log security is only one layer of the onion.

    Before you get too far into an overly complex and potentially expensive solution, talk with your auditors about the requirements for your specific scenarios. They've seen it before and can tell you exactly what they are looking for from an audit compliance standpoint. They are usually pretty easy to work with and open with their knowledge.

    1. Re:From Experience by georgewilliamherbert · · Score: 2, Informative

      Second the "ask the auditors what they are looking for"... not everyone gets audited the same.

      Financial company I know passed audit fine with syslog -> a secure system which the normal sysadmins didn't have access to. The people whose actions were being logged couldn't get to the logs (well, presumably someone could break the system, but it was well secured and had non-overlapping sysadmin staff).

      That was good enough. As long as it took two compromised people to hide any given event, that passed audit.

    2. Re:From Experience by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      Agree 100% from an FDA perspective, too.
      Your bigger worry is going to be the paperwork and audit trail for document versioning control, change control and user accountability. Sure, you may have a system that documents who did what, but if you don't have the "who" and the "what" buttoned down, it's of questionable use.
      Talk to the auditors and find out what they actually *need*. If necessary, pull in a consultant who specialises in your area to help: costs of non-compliance can be *really really bad*.

    3. Re:From Experience by sjames · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unalterable logs as a matter of compliance does not mean "absolutely unalterable under any circumstances". There should be no way for an end user to modify audit trails. There should be no preconceived way for an administrator to alter audit trails - i.e. no utilities for doing so. That does not mean that an admin can't go directly into the DB and alter the data from behind the application layer.

      That's VERY important to keep in mind. A lot of the wailing, hype, and FUD around all of the various auditing and retention laws comes from people who do not understand that fundamentally absolutely ANY audit trail can be altered given sufficient determination and resources. Even if the logs are chiseled into stone slabs it is not absolutely inconceivable that someone might produce a slab thgat is identical in every way except for a changed digit or 2.

      WORM media can be duplicated as well. Whole vaults of WORM media can be duplicated. if you save hashes of the data seperately, the media containing the hashes can be swapped just like the main logs.

      So, making it absolutely impossible to alter data is out of the question, it's really a matter of how hard you can make it without bankrupting the company in the process (cheapest solution is fold the company. No company means no data means no alterations).

      Dumping the lot to a line printer in real time AND storing to a log file is one answer. In some cases, just keeping the logfiles in ext[23] and setting the append only attribute may be enough, at least until enough has accumulated to burn another sector onto a WORM device.

      For a while, I ran a patched kernel that would allow the immutable or append only bits to be set by root but not cleared. Clearing the bits when necessary required booting into another kernel (which would trigger many alarms when the machine went down). Doing so was a regular procedure for maintenance, but that was scheduled and all admins were notified. An unscheduled event would NOT go un-noticed.

      It's also useful to note that most of the requirements are that fraud be merely detectable. That is, the data need not be unalterable so long as the alteration is detectable. It's MUCH easier to detect that data was changed than it is to allow for reconstruction of the original data. One viable scenerio (given that fraud is a rare to non-existant event for the company) is to detect the alteration in the electronic data and then reconstruct the real data by following the paper audit trail.

    4. Re:From Experience by jd · · Score: 1
      I don't see what the fuss is about. If you write audit trails to a write-once medium, you can't alter it. And who cares if a database is alterable if you ensure that all transaction logs are dumped to write-once storage? After that, it's about as effective as saying a wiki can be altered.Sure, but you can also bring up any prior version.

      Same with disks in general. If you copy the journals to a safe place before they get synced in, you can recover any and every intermediate state very rapidly.

      All you need is an autoloader on a DVD writer that can take from a fresh stack and dump written disks to another stack. Once every N weeks, you get a truck and put the DVDs in safe storage.

      This isn't a pure hardware solution - the transfers are all software - and it should be easy to write open source transfer software that handles all of this. We're not talking rocket science here.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    5. Re:From Experience by Akatosh · · Score: 2, Informative

      For a while, I ran a patched kernel that would allow the immutable or append only bits to be set by root but not cleared. Clearing the bits when necessary required booting into another kernel (which would trigger many alarms when the machine went down). FYI you don't need a special kernel for that for linux,

      lcap CAP_LINUX_IMMUTABLE CAP_SYS_RAWIO CAP_SYS_MODULE CAP_MKNOD CAP_SYS_BOOT
      unlink /dev/sda1 (or whatever, after fscking/mounting)

      that will disable the ability to alter immutable bits, access /dev/mem, kmem, etc, load kernel modules, access storage devices directly or reboot the system.

      Now lets put said unalterable log on an encrypted partition that requires a key on a usb dongle to mount, split the key into a few parts and give the parts out to different people.

      Also there are hardware crypto based document storage solutions out there that supposedly make things totally unalterable short of an act of god (embeded in laquer kind of thing). Ncipher makes some stuff like that, google them. (I don't have any vested interest, it's just the only company I know of that makes that sort of thing).
  33. Physical Destruction by unsubscribe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In short the requirement is for a secure method to make sure that once a log is written it can never be deleted or changed.
    Although it is possible to prevent logs from being modified (using write-once media) or undetectably tampered with (using crypto, possibly with a TPM module for the ultra-paranoid), any log can be 'deleted' by physically destroying the device/media on which it is stored.
    1. Re:Physical Destruction by karmatic · · Score: 1

      A system like this cannot function if _everyone_ in the chain is compromised.

      On the other hand, if you have N copies, and no person has access to all, you have in fact made it so it can never be deleted, provided you accept as an assumption that N people will not be compromised simultaneously. This is, of course, a necessary assumption anyway - without it, you can't have a working audit system in the first place.

  34. Dont skimp... by pjr.cc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seriously, when it comes to legal requirements, do not skimp!

    Go for something that is guarentee'd to fulfill your legal compliance requirements.

    Yeah, optical media is great for WORM, but you dont want something your going to have to manage day to day. The legal req's of sox and so forth are beyond that of traditional optical drives in terms of life span in any case. Do not go with optical for compliance unless its something specifically designed for compliance (Again, thats $$$).

    As someone suggested, centera is a good option - but all the storage vendors have good options (from emc, netapp, hds, sun, falconstor, mimosa the list is endless) and they'll all tell you how theirs is better than anyone else (and why). At the end of the day, you want a compliance solution with someone's stamp on it, and a throat you can cut when it goes wrong.

    If your absolutely determined to go the compliance route on OSS - go with ext3cow (www.ext3cow.com) IMHO, a fully versioning COW fs with a non-erasable past and the best OSS solution for the job - backup on to optical if you like, but dont make optical your only option. If it only had policy-based management (i.e. snapshot whenever user X or group y writes a file) rather then crontab'ing its snapshot agent it would almost be perfect for a start-point solution for compliance. It has a big benifit along with it though, you can show users how to get files "from yesterday".

    Keep in mind, WORM means policy-based write-once, not necessarily immutable storage! And almost every compliance worm product out there depends on that fact.

    1. Re:Dont skimp... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      How about a modified tape drive without a rewind capability...
      The logs only need to be written in serial, so a tape would work nicely for this, and tapes usually have huge storage. If you want to reuse the tapes, you can put them into a seperate device to rewind them.

      Also you could chop the logfiles into chunks of a certain size, and print out the md5/sha1 hashes of them, so if the logs are modified there is proof that they were.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  35. fast search as well by martin · · Score: 1

    It's already been said in other posts but to summarise:

    It's not just Read Only (which can be achieved easily with syslog), it's the ability to return requested data quickly that the critical thing with SOX et al.

    If someone says they want to see information on item X, you HAVE to return this imformation in hours not days or weeks.

    This is where the commercial products have spent their time, developing fast search capabilities over the data they collect.

    Certification is also important. Ie product X has been shown to work and works like this..

    1. Re:fast search as well by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Well, you could put your logs into a modified database...
      You only need INSERT and SELECT, no UPDATE or DELETE functions. How hard would it be to modify something like mysql to work in this way?

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  36. It's HIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why can no one spell HIPAA properly?

    1. Re:It's HIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that a HIPAAthetical question?

  37. Don't Build Your Own Device by Interfacer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I work for a big pharma company as a sysadmin, and we have to abide by similar rules and laws. Our data recording and data logging has to be proven to be unalterable.

    Go with a commercial solution unless you want to battle with the QA and Validation departments for haf a year. And even if you would get the go-ahead (unlikely) you'd get in a hell of a lot of trouble during an audit because auditors a) don't know your solution and b) they will quickly see that it is not certified.

    There are specified requirements (don't know the names and numbers by heart) that your solution has to proven to fulfill, and certified by some external party.
    Just saying 'Yeah but I know it cannot be altered because it is syslog / ' will not cut it.

    And non-compliance can eend up costing your company millions if not hundreds of millions.
    Open source or home grown has it's place, but in a regulated environment you go with commercial for certain things because that is the only option where you get certification with your device / software.

    1. Re:Don't Build Your Own Device by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Informative
      "Our data recording and data logging has to be proven to be unalterable."

      no such thing exists. given enough time and a mediocure amount of money, i'm 100% certain i could alter anything your storing your information on and make it look real.

      the toughest system i've ever seen as far as audit trails goes is using cdr's in a machine that makes a hash of the data on the cdr AND reads the serial number on the cd and stores that on a geographically seperate cdr system. it's similar to those automated cd turnstyle things you can buy, only beefy with steel casing and alarms on it and what not.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    2. Re:Don't Build Your Own Device by Lucien+Raven · · Score: 1
      But, if you still want to keep your heart on FOSS, I'd give Linux Capabilities a try. Ever heard of it? You can set a files in 'append-only' mode in a way that even root user can't mess with the data.
      Check this link, a bit old but interesting: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5737
      From the link:

      If your system logs are append-only and your core system utilities immutable (see chattr(3) for details), removing the CAP_LINUX_IMMUTABLE capability will make it virtually impossible for intruders to erase their tracks or install compromised utilities. Traffic sniffers like tcpdump become unusable once CAP_NET_RAW is removed. Remove CAP_SYS_PTRACE and you've turned off program debugging. Such a hostile environment is a script kiddy's worst nightmare, and there is no choice but to disconnect and wait for the intrusion to be discovered.
      Not bullet-proof, but still free and open source.
      Check also those SElinux and, why not, OpenBSD. You might find something that suits you.
    3. Re:Don't Build Your Own Device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about writing to a simple table in a database with a trigger based functional no-op on update and delete (so that only inserts go thru)?

    4. Re:Don't Build Your Own Device by rhs98 · · Score: 0

      A variation on one I have seen is daily logs which are signed, the signature and last ID are inserted in to the top of the next days logs. The signature and last ID were then published publicly (website, newsgroup, etc).

      Altering old logs means that you have to alter all the sub-sequential logs as the signature changes, which obviously chains down the logs. As the signatures / ID's are public it becomes extremely unlikely to go undetected.

      Obviously you could decrease the "rotate" interval.

      I read about this on Stamper at http://www.itconsult.co.uk/stamper/stampinf.htm

  38. Re:Dont skimp... two other things. by pjr.cc · · Score: 3, Informative

    ext3cow was written with compliance in mind (i.e. with an untouchable past), and so its AFAIK the ONLY solution that can fit in compliance (keeping in mind that this only covers part of compliance). svn, git, cvs - im sorry, but thats just a non-solution for compliance. It also gives you no-mess management with a very easy interface to make sure you are being compliant (this is important, and its something YOU dont have to be involved in, your lawyers can "look at the past" to make sure "discovery" is going to be consistent).

    The second thing is, compliance is (ridiculously) complex - the compliance vendors have spent many hours with lawyers getting it together, they know the requirements and they know they fullfill them - this is important. It also means their solutions come with an implicit warranty - "hey, your using netapp worm, we know it works" as apposed to "what software is that? how do you know it works?". At the end of the day a lawyer is going to either go "well i cant argue with the compliance solution" when your with a well-known or "your honor, the defendant is using ... which has never been proven or certified by anyone".

    Compliance is the only time i will say to someone - "get a throat to cut", get a solution you know works, written by people who know what they are doing and its all because compliance req's were written by lawyers for lawyers (i.e. scum) and so their scum is going to make you have to act like scum.

  39. Paper and line printers by jsse · · Score: 1

    A couple of the posts above has already bought up the use of paper printing logs for the purpose. That's really practically used by many companies.

    The solution, however, is hardly cheap. You need an expensive 4000-line per minutes line printer with stackers to re-fold and stack the fan-fold papers as they emerged from the printer. Also, you need monitoring tools to monitor the status of the printer and a room with security staff to prevent physical tampering.

    (Don't bother using a laser printer, the cost of the ink along would drive your company into bankruptcy :)

    I saw one of those system in IBM before, may be you could approach them for advise.

    1. Re:Paper and line printers by xaxa · · Score: 1

      When I was about 16 I shadowed a guy in a chemical R&D place for a week (it's called "work experience" in the UK, it's meant to give you an insight into the working world, and OD you on coffee). They had line printers writing the logs of the pollutants they were emitting from a chimney, I think they were recording the concentrations of gasses every minute. It all depends how much data you have to store.

  40. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  41. How come nobody mentioned this ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Of all the solutions I have the one that would work, and I can't beleave the /. crowd have not mantioned it yet. Email your logs to gmail Have gmail automaticaly fwd your logs to hotmail Have Hotmail automaticaly fwd your logs to Yahoo You want to put more stuff into the mix, ensure your chain of emailing includes anonymous fwding or whatever other features you want. Every account has a password. If any email is disputed, I can log you in another account to prove its correctness. You get them time stamped What else do you want? G

    1. Re:How come nobody mentioned this ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "What else do you want?"

      A solution that wouldn't be laughed out of court.

  42. Technology coming full circle... by MFHFozzy · · Score: 1

    This functionality was built into Netware's NFS, all the way back to 3.x (maybe even 2.x) There was a bit for "Add" and "Edit". Worked just as the article reads.

  43. Some hdd's have read only jumper by bobJandal · · Score: 1

    Flick that, then put the box under lock and key. Email checksums someplace cheap and remote. gmail is a good one - lots of space, and the date is hard to change, unless you break gmail ? (spread the blame ;) Also, some bioses allow read only disk access. Cheap, fast, works :P

  44. we did it ourselves in the end by instantiator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    as it was quickest. writing: 1. append latest entry as plaintext 2. sign [signature of previous entry + plaintext of latest entry], and append as signature of latest entry

  45. This is audit, not perfection by nicolaiplum · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First of all, this is a requirement to satisfy an audit. It would be nice if whatever solution you come up with is actually good, but you only have to satisfy the auditors.
    Auditors want processes and records to raise the barrier to someone doing something wrong or unrecorded. They know systems aren't perfect. Nerds all go "but someone could just make a change some other way so this system is no use". If it raises the barrier high enough, it is useful. All accounting books can be cooked, the point of auditing is to make it harder (and to make it require more people).
    Some write-once methods are more accepted by auditors than others, because they have seen them before. Of course you can rewrite a WORM disc's contents onto another disc and edit the contents on the way, but most auditors think that is sufficiently difficult that they think WORM media is OK. And you can write several copies and send them to different places, then the person wanting to edit the log has to get to all the discs.
    The commercial solutions like those from EMC and Network Appliance aren't foolproof. You could take all the discs and edit the data on the discs if you want. It's harder for you to do that than simply "su root; vi logfile" because you have to work at a lower level. All the EMC or NetApp software is promising the auditors is that it would be hard work to do it undetectably and that is what they are looking for.
    An Open Source solution which has no API to change data once it is written would work the same as the EMC or NetApp, but if you are the first to use it then you have to persuade your auditors (and possibly a court down the line) that it really doesn't have any such API.
    Usually Open Source is good for your business because you have control of it, can change it, and can see how it works.
    Auditable logs are about you not having control of them, not being able to change them.
    The easiest way to get your auditors to agree your logs meet the audit requirements is to use some solution that they have seen before. Buy a Netapp (I won't, personally, recommend EMC) or buy a WORM drive. DVD-R is WORM, it's cheap.

    --
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled"
    1. Re:This is audit, not perfection by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Auditors are not in the business of putting you out of business, though it may seem that way. They are simply responsible for certifying that you have a reasonable system in place. For this problem, having a OSS solution will set you up for some effort in educating the auditors in the details of how you solved the problem, which expense needs to be compared to the costs of a commercial solution. If you had a large amount of data, the OSS solution may be much more economical once you are past the onetime costs of developing the solution and educating the auditors.

      One thought to consider, though. Have you considered the career implications of developing a custom solution? Do you want to be supporting this for the rest of your life with this outfit. A commerical solution comes with a support infrastructure, which means that a new employee can perhaps be more easily trained. There are job quality implications in pursuing the OSS alternative, make sure you want those.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
  46. Use hashing algorithms by sunny256 · · Score: 1

    One method that would prevent tampering of previous written log data, is to use some kind of hash function, for example SHA1+MD5, to generate a signature of the current log chunk. When the next log chunk is to be written, the hash value of the previous chunk is stored in the current log chunk. This way the hash value of the previous chunk is used as salt when the current chunk is going to be calculated, making it impossible to change the log history unnoticed. Using only MD5 (or even SHA1) is probably not a good solution, as there has been some more or less successful attempts to forge the signature, but by combining SHA1 and MD5 along with file size, it should be reasonably impossible to fake old logs.

    No expensive software necessary, it could easily be integrated into programs, or even a small bash/Perl/Python/whatever script could perform the task.

  47. Never say never? (Re:Sometimes, the old...) by kistel · · Score: 0

    Deletion will always be possible. Even if you don't have a nuke at hand, there's always a sysadmin (or two, playing together) who can do it. If the value of "losing" audit logs is high enough, the solution will be found...

    Most of the line printers have escape sequences to set many things. It's nice to use that to set the line feed distance to 0 points :-) [Can you buy a LP today that is dumb enough not to have such features? :-)]

    Also, in most of the cases, you *can* change the logs (video tapes, etc.). Sure, it will be detected. So what? Applying crypto (hashes, HSM signed log entries, etc.) can show you that something was changed, but you'll never know what was the original data. For example: "What IP address did that hacker use, where did he come from? "Well, we don't know, but we do know that it's not what's in the log, as that is corrupt." Cool.

    And yes, I'm being theoretical here. On the positive side, although you cannot say "once a log is written it can never be deleted or changed", you can mitigate the risk that this happens to you, down to a point where you (or SOX) find that acceptable.

  48. Hash-based technique to prevent altered logs by shani · · Score: 1

    I remember reading about this several years ago. It was an active area of work in the 2001 to 2003 timeframe.

    You can read an article about it here:

    http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200112/log_protection. html

    There is also a draft in the IETF on how to do this in a standard way:

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sys log-sign-22.txt

    Good stuff.

  49. DSS/HIPPA/SOX Unalterable Audit Logs? by rs232 · · Score: 1

    Write once thermal magnetic paper tape or digital optical tape

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  50. Distributed blame by BbMaj7 · · Score: 1

    Rather than collecting syslog entries in one place, disseminate them to many collectors. It then becomes a very difficult task for anyone to modify the received logs because they reside in different places under guard by different systems.

    syslog-ng will happily do this.

    Setup UDP transport for syslog to many destinations for the same data. Each destination will receive a copy of each syslog entry and store/guard it independently. The reliability of the data is specified by the reliability of the stores. These can be commercial data storage centres.

    In any dispute, read back all the relevant copies and check for any differences.

    100% trust is not achievable. Settle on an acceptible level of risk.

    --
    -- Rich
  51. Use the Old dnotify utility? by __aajwxe560 · · Score: 1

    As many other posters have suggested, when it comes to federal audit compliance, commercial reliability should be a serious consideration i.e. EMC Centera.
    That being said, you did ask to see if any open source solutions. The only thing I can think of is coming up with some combined use of dnotify (http://linux.die.net/man/1/dnotify), or one of its more modern incarnations such as inotify or I think there is even an lnotify now, and then use that to launch a script to strip user write permissions from a file after it has been created/written in the directory. This would of course be tricky as you would need to be confident the user was done writing to the file before you removed their write permissions, but it is open source and gives you something easy to play with as you evaluate your options.
    Best of luck!

  52. it depends on your preference in delusions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This state of "impossible to alter" is quite clearly not possible to achieve. If you use write-once media, just copy the media minus the incriminating logs. If you're using "WORM disk," AKA regular disks with a fancy box in front of it that will refuse to overwrite files, you just have to learn the filesystem and change the files yourself. The whole thing boils down to choosing in which way you would like to delude yourself into believing the problem is solvable.

    As far as delusions go, like some people have said, probably the best open-source delusional approach is having some kind of DVD writer in place, but of course you'd have to make it impossible to store your logs somewhere else before they hit the DVD (then copying the logs to the write-once media after you've altered them and/or someone asks for them), or to modify them en-route, or to copy the DVD minus the parts that are incriminating, etc. The whole concept is full of holes even if you prove that the information that actually hit your storage hasn't been changed, or simply assume that it can't be changed because some vendor says it can't.

    The absolute best you can hope for is a combination of something technical that is completely breakable (they all are) and administrative controls such as physically signing off on the media, limiting access to the hardware, etc. to make it harder to tamper with things or at least to make it necessary for multiple people to conspire to make a change. In none of the situations I've described is a change impossible, just more difficult.

  53. Re:Major flaw in original design.. by Technician · · Score: 1

    It has plenty of storage space even by todays standards. The word length is a little non-standard in today's 23 bit and 64 bit archatectures. It includes a drain for when it gets full. The bucket under the drain provides little protection to the contents. This is a serious design flaw for data retention.

    "The Signetics Write-Only Memory is a completely interated solid-state device that employs both enhancement and depletion modes. It is organized to store "N" number of words which consist of 9,046 bits each (the term "N" may equal anything to infinity, and then some)"

    If you read the original specs, the cooling requirement is a little agressive.

    "The 25120 is easily cooled by employment of a six-foot fan, 1/2" from the package. If the device fails, you have exceeded the ratings. In such case, more air is recommended."

    If you don't have the catalog from the 1970's, the text without the graphics is here. Enjoy.
    http://www.ariplex.com/tina/tsignet1.htm

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  54. 5 1/4" floppies by failedlogic · · Score: 1

    Use 5 1/4" floppies. Once the data is written to the disk put some tape over the write tab on the side of the disk. If people claim this is inefficient, double the efficiency buy punching a hole on other side of disk and flip it over.

    They want an audit trail, they'll have it. A trail of floppies that no one will ever find the log file for! ;)

    1. Re:5 1/4" floppies by cafucu · · Score: 1

      Alas, I'll bring my OWN floppy hole puncher and h4x0r your logs!!! Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

      --
      :%s:work:/.:g
  55. PCI-DSS: Yank, yank / and SOX (warning: 4am rant) by CropCircleSystems · · Score: 1

    i dont know about hippa/sox but i did recently have the "pleasure" of creating a pci-dss v1.1 compliant system from pretty much the ground up on the freebsd platform and have read all 16 (wow!) pages of the pci-dss 1.1 "spec" (if you can call it that, i put that in quotes because it it doesnt "spec"ify anything. at least it is short read albeit a vague one) the following is a rant. however if you read to the bottom (or skip there) there is a reward of a paragraph actually more directly pertinent to the original ask /. question :)

    it (pci-dss) eerily reminded me of iso 9001. (i have a little experience in qual. assurance of manufacturing.) basically [pci-dss|iso9001], while its advocates will try and trumpet [security|quality], has nothing to do with either, and more to do with documentation and accountability. (ie whos responsible ie who gets fired/resign (after they've already pocketed enough money so that its actually basically a retirement) so that another scapegoat can be brought in to take his place) sure, documenting your process has always been a cornerstone of [security|quality] but anyone worth their weight in horse-sh^H^Hmanure already knew that and already did that.

    [pci-dss|iso9001] seems to me (a small business operator) to mean more about burying the little guy in a mess of paperwork and red tape while letting the big guys pat themselves on the back with another acronym or seal-of-approval that in the end gets so watered down and turns into just another way for fool-hearty consumers/customers to increase their complacency (complacent-fool consumers both a. deserve to be separated from their money quickly and b. are in my opinion one of the major problems w/ american society) rather than study beyond the flashy outter packaging (in a manner of speaking) what they are buying.

    and i dont have much experience with SOX but from the whiff of it based on what some colleagues have told me, is roughly the same thing (swap consumers w/ investors in the above text), despite glowing reviews in a recent usa today article on its 5th birthday. (usa today basically credits SOX for all of the US's economic growth since its inception after the post-enron market bomb, not the fact that the fear of being caught still looms in the air like a stench and so would-be corruptees might just be chilling out for the time being, seeing that 5 years is nothing the grand scheme. however my hypothesis is that they in fact aren't chilling out at all, and are going at it just as strong or stronger, because from what i have seen in business, i would tend to think that: just like there is nothing really stopping a iso9001 certified company from producing sh^H^Hpoor quality products, SOX smells like just a better way to bury the real story in cooked-books that are now just that much deeper. i know, i know, now the board is responsible and not just the CEO, and its a legal crime and they can't claim plausible deniability anymore, all good steps in the right direction, but that only matters if you get caught and my point is that SOX is just more paper to hide under so they dont get caught) (ok please label all flame replies telling me i dont know squat about SOX by keeping SOX in your subject while taking PCI-DSS out of your subject line if it no longer has anything to do with pci-dss, and do please enlighten us)

    back to pci-dss: as consultants first and developers second, we reviewed handfulls of pci-dss compliant "solutions" before resorting to a custom built system. despite trying to scare those like us out of it, with a little patience and attention to detail we little guys could still implement a pci-dss compliant system that was WAY better than many systems i wont go into bashing here, and all for the cost of some lower priced of the pre-cooked "solutions".

    to an experienced developer, the pci-dss "spec" reads like: 1. dont be so stupid, 2. pull yer head out of yer as^H^Hrear-end, 3. dont g

  56. can you move the logs or anything? by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

    If the logs have to be searchable, don't they also have to remain "online" (i.e. can't move to backup?) Won't this just be a huge boon to storage manufacturers?

    --
    stuff |
  57. windows has had this from the dos days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In win xp all you have to do is right click and set the read only bit.

  58. Its spelled H-I-P-A-A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, schmuck.

    1. Re:Its spelled H-I-P-A-A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No Doubt. Fucking retard

  59. Unalterable, or auditable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Several posters here seem confused between the requirements for unalterable records and logs with audit trails.

    For an unalterable record you need a WORM mechanism which provide a permanent record which can be physically destroyed but not edited.

    For an audit requirement, data is logged, access to the logs is restricted, and any change creates an audit trail, ideally indicating who made the change and (typically on paper) who authorised the change.

    Clearly the requirements for the former are much more stringent and are generally met in hardware using WORM systems from vendors like EMC & HDS, or on a smaller scale using two or more WORM drives in a dedicated PC with archival software. While, for the latter an open systems solution is feasible.

    Just my thoughts,

    A.C.

  60. A printer by jafiwam · · Score: 1

    ...and a really big box of paper.

    Just use a small font and expand the margins a bit.

  61. Re:PCI-DSS: Yank, yank / and SOX (warning: 4am ran by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

    Having gone through a few PCI audits what they accept for logging is pretty simple, log to local + remote don't let anybody on the remote with rights to delete or change the copies, use selinux or similar to alert on change and backup regularly and ship the tapes off site. For me this general means the daily or weekly off site tape rotation gets a new class of tapes with 7+ year retention holding the logs generally sever copies of the same log since it's a 90 day local retention on the central server and tape is cheap. This means even if I have to pull back a tape I have a nice paper trail as to who touched it and when locally along with an uninterested vendor's log to the same. If we need to get them reviewed by a third party we can get them the next tape from the off site vendor shipped directly to them. This passes the auditors and legal, PCI is pretty weak compared to SOX or Hippa really it's just a way to push blame to the merchant since PCI is written to be vague and open to interpretation.

    --
    No sir I dont like it.
  62. open source logging tool that signs the logs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AFAIK the only FOSS log analysis tool that does the hashing/signing of all the
    stored logs is ossec: http://www.ossec.net/ .

    We switched from logwatch/logsurfer because of it:

    http://www.ossec.net/wiki/index.php/Know_How:LogSi gn

  63. fundamentally difficult, but possible by v1 · · Score: 1

    There are a lot of fundamental rules in crypto, and one of them is that crypto can only become less secure over time. Time eventually breaks all crypto, and once "the cat's out of the bag" (key compromised etc) it tends to open everything secured with it in the past, assuming you simply kept a copy of it from back when. To lock something from alteration in the future is not a problem that can be solved with crypto. Hardware is about the only way to do it, to write it to a media that cannot be physically altered. I'm sure most of these posts are going to suggest CD-R media, and really that's a good way. Even that fails though, because there is little to prevent someone from reading in the media, altering it, and burning a new copy. Again things like this cannot really be future-proofed.

    The only practial approach would be to digitally sign it, and throw away the private key. Keep the public key, and then you can read the data and verify the signature, but you cannot alter the data without resigning it, which is not possible without the private key.

    Then how to prevent people from changing the data and changing the public key? The solution to this is to create a chain of keys. Lets say we plan for 20 years of recording. Initially roll up 20 x 12 keys, one for each month from now to then. Use the keys intended for future to sign the keys to be used earlier. This creates a chain of trust rooted in the future. So the key for signing records made in March 2008 are signed with the key made to be used in April 2008. Once signed, lock up the future keys and do not remove them from the vault or whatever until you are ready to use them. Be sure to destroy the private keys after their month of use is over.

    In this way, if someone tries to alter a the key for March (which they can do, and just resign everything) then in April when the April key is unlocked, its public key can be used to verify the March key's April signature, which will no longer be correctly signed and you can turn the dogs loose to find out what got altered. Thus the March key cannot be replaced to permit alteration and resigning of older data because it itself cannot be resigned until next month when the key that signed it becomes available.

    There would be a period of time in this example, one month, where data could be altered since the public key is still available. This could be mitigated by lowering the interval time to say, one day instead of one month. Then once data becomes a day old, it is very difficult to forge since the older private keys are no longer available and cannot be replaced.

    For those of you paying attention, it's possible to get around this by changing all the keys below the current one. This is fixed by signing all older keys with all newer keys, instead of merely signing them with the next newer key. Shouldn't be a problem since signatures are not all that large. As long as you can keep the newer unused keys private, it's impossible to alter the logs without being discovered.

    This does not break the rule I started with, the system is still vulnerable to time, but this method allows you to specify the time in the future where it breaks. The last key to be revealed defines the point at which the chain of trust is broken. After that day, ALL prior logs could be altered without detection, since its keys are now exposed. Of course the smart thing would be to never use the last public key, and throw it away the day after it was initially used to sign all the lower keys. Then every 10 years start with a new batch.

    I'm no crypto expert but it's an interest of mine. I invite some real crypto experts to critique my idea. (and maybe tell me about how someone has already implemented it?)

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  64. The "reality" answer by billcopc · · Score: 1

    IANAA (I am not a anything!), but from my own personal experiences, if something is technically infeasible for the average half-brained VB consultant, then it's probably above what little technical understanding any court (or its "expert" witness) would have if such technology were to be used as evidence.

    On one hand, you've got WORM tapes and optical write-once media. If you have to implement some sort of buffering to make these storage mediums happy, then you simply have to do it and that's the end of it.

    The people drafting SOX aren't device driver coders, they're accountants and attorneys and other non-computer folk. If they said you had to tattoo each transaction on a live hamster and shoot them into space, you'd be in the same tight spot. Just like instant WORM logging, it's marginally feasible but terribly impractical using currently available technology.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  65. Open source options by RedPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Big Disclaimer: I'm a snare developer!

    The "Snare Server" software can automatically archive to optical media, and receives data from the snare agents in real time. Unfortunately, it's commercial though.

    However, the agents are open source, and we provide a bunch of open source tools that might help you throw your own custom system together to do something similar. The agents (Windows / Solaris / AIX / Irix / Apache / Squid / ISA / IIS ... and a whole bunch of others) can also write data to a remote syslog server (eg: kiwi syslog, syslog-ng) in real-time.

    Won't mention the company web site - this is a comment rather than an Ad, but the code's on sourceforge if you'd like to go looking.

    Regulatory compliance is a fun process isn't it - whether it's PCI, HIPAA, DCID/DIAM, ACSI33, GLBA, NISPOM... or a whole heap of others that people need to cover these days. ;)

    Red.

  66. Surety by xbytor · · Score: 1

    This isn't FOSS but it is a cryptographically based solution: http://www.surety.com/.

    There are likely other solutions available like this one, I just happened to cross path with some of the engineering staff in a former life which is how I knew about this company.

    -X

  67. But delete is still easy to do by Skapare · · Score: 1

    Delete is still easy to do. I have a 1200 watt CD/DVD bulk delete device in my kitchen.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    1. Re:But delete is still easy to do by fimbulvetr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not about "deleting" the data, it's about trusting the data you have. Just like there's a difference between disinformation and no information - though I admit there should be procedures in place to keep said things away from your super powerful 1200 watt coffee maker.

  68. yes, you're right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems unrelated, but I use PuppyLinux on a rewriteable DVD on a diskless laptop for travel (security of email). I set it up to write some data to DVD each time I exited. The DVD+R (I think don't have it handy at the moment) was much more efficient at writing many small changes to the rewritable DVD. IIRC, the DVD-R rewriteable can handle only a couple hundred rewrites, the +R is almost infinte, until you've filled the disk.

    This might be the simplest solution, even simpler than attaching a serial TTY to a serial port to paper log all network accesses.

  69. Must Be a Hardware Solution by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 1

    If you want something that cannot be deleted then you require a hardware solution. Any software "solution" will in some manner or form permit change and deletion. Now, you can come up with a software only solution to detect changes (that's actually not that hard), but that's not the same as preventing changes.

  70. Compliance is risk-avoidance, don't be cheap. by Bright+Apollo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I work in a regulated industry, and this is an ongoing topic at pharmaceuticals.
    Basically, you weigh the cost of non-compliance versus compliance, figure out
    what that risk is worth to your business, then try to spend as little as possible
    to mitigate the risk until the cost is acceptable.

    There is no such thing as 100% compliance or security. Oracle makes a big deal out
    of their data vault tech, but there's someone out there who can circumvent it. You
    need to figure out your comfort level for the risk, and in big corps, this is a
    financial decision.

    Which leads me to this: there is no "roll your own" compliance software. You do not
    want to assume the responsibility of proving to auditors that your software is correct
    and fully-functional. That is a difficult process to behold, and it will make your
    dev team crazy with paperwork. This is why people buy commercial off-the-shelf (COTS)
    software and then configure it, as they can then point to the COTS vendor and say
    "He vouches for the software". Auditors already versed in the COTS solution will
    then look to see examples of your configuration to see if it's sufficient, then
    move on.

    Sure, it's a nice intellectual exercise and certainly worthy of development, by a
    dedicated team willing to tackle all of the issues around securing the data, providing
    secure authentication and controls, proving non-repudiation and temporal consistency,
    etc, all of which a one-man show cannot achieve, all of which a half-assed token effort
    cannot achieve.

    Really, it boils down to this: you wanna roll the dice on your company being under a
    consent decree from the DoJ because you were too cheap to buy a system? That cost can
    shutter your doors.

    -BA

    1. Re:Compliance is risk-avoidance, don't be cheap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention if they find any flaws in your "home brew" system which can't be fixed to the auditors needs you can and will eventually be marked
      with a material weakness. Material weakness's are then reported to the SEC and your stock tanks.

      I've been through 3 SOX audits in the US and 2 in the UK and believe me you'll be thankful after you have a system in place.

  71. Plan 9's Venti by randolph · · Score: 1

    I think Plan 9's Venti probably does what you want. There is a version which runs on Linux; see Plan 9 From Userspace for details.

  72. Re:PCI-DSS: Yank, yank / and SOX (warning: 4am ran by barbam · · Score: 0

    You obviously don't have much practical experience with PCI-DSS -- There are actual three different docs to look at -- 1. A one-page overview listing the 12 major bullet points to compliance. 2. The 16 page document that you refer to that lists sub-categories under the 12 major bullet-points. 3. The ~50 page auditor guidelines that detail exactly what you need to do. Go read some more, young lad.

  73. What the hell is hiPPa? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you referring to HIPAA -- demon spawn which makes health sciences research an exceedingly nasty proposition?

    You didn't mention your application. For research, for example, the best way to limit your difficulties with HIPAA is to
    get your research subjects to sign away their HIPAA rights for your research data and then to anonymize it as heavily as you can.

  74. News to me by joshv · · Score: 1

    Write once, read many logs are part of HIPAA compliance? That's news to me.

  75. Venti on Plan9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Plan9's venti archival filesystem does this, and supports a number of WORM jukeboxes (mostly from HP). It will easily integrate with Win32 or UN*X on the network, as well.

    -jcw

  76. Good Ol Paper TTY FTW! by Greyfox · · Score: 1
    Just make console a paper TTY and have your 24 hour operators (You have 24 hour operators right?) change ink/paper when necessary. Of course, to insure log continuity, you'd be logging to two.

    Plus when you get that request from legal there's nothing quite like popping down to the warehouse where you store all those things and dumping 6 months of paper logs on someone's desk (Isn't that right, IBM?)

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  77. Monk option by halcyon1234 · · Score: 1
    Rent a huge underground cavern. Preferably one with lots of wallspace, and an underground river. Then, employ a small order of monks. Stick them down in the cavern, then seal it up except for some air vents and pneumatic tubes. Every day, send them down the daily reports via tube, and have them etch it into the wall. All you have to do to maintain the system is send down a weekly supply of rice mush and fish heads, flavoured by the mushrooms that are sure to grow in the dark. Maybe yearly replacements for their hand-crank lights. They can use the report paper for their musings, or TP, or whatever.

    The system is write once, and is permanent. (At least, the cavern walls will be around much longer than your company can ever hope to be). If anyone does manage to sneak in to change a record, the monks will hear them and judo-chop-fu their intruding ass.

    The system is secure, since you control the only input point. You can add layers of security by working out an authentication code with the monks, posting loyal guards around the tube entrance, etc.

    If you did your homework properly and got yourself some of those scrupulous, herb eating monks, the system is reliable has great longevity. Bonus points if you found an co-ed order, because then you have a self-replicating system.

    If you ever need to retrieve the records, just reverse the flow of the tube. If you need a full system audit, blast a hole in the ceiling and lower the auditor in. Just seal up the hole afterwards with plenty of concrete. (Removing the auditor is optional)

  78. Subversion! by DigitAl56K · · Score: 1

    Use a version control system like Subversion. You can actually modify or delete files as much as you like, but the full change history will be available for any URL, as will all committed revisions, so even if somebody deletes something you can just request the revision where it still existed and had not been modified.

    It's a simple solution that does not required any complicated storage setup. Many developers use it every day.

    1. Re:Subversion! by cduffy · · Score: 1

      And anyone who knows what they're doing can subvert it.

      Dump the subversion repository to XML, edit it all you want, rebuild it... there you are, you've changed history.

      Something with chained cryptographic signatures timestamped by a trusted third party digital notary service is more appropriate to the task. That way, there are two components which need to be subverted -- the storage repository, and the notary service.

    2. Re:Subversion! by DigitAl56K · · Score: 1

      If you have that kind of access to a system you can change anything you like. Probably if you're in charge of this system you are also in charge of the signing service also - go set it's clock back, recommit your modified files to the backup, set the clock correctly again, and voila!

      There are no end of ways to work around the system, at some point it has to be "fit for purpose". Automating everything and locking the machines down in a secure location with logs of who accessed that location and when is probably good enough, no? After all, if there is something really damaging that you want to get rid of, "Damn, we had a fire in our storage center" or "Lost in transit" are actually much easier to pull off and leave no recovery method.

    3. Re:Subversion! by cduffy · · Score: 1

      If you have that kind of access to a system you can change anything you like. Probably if you're in charge of this system you are also in charge of the signing service also - go set it's clock back, recommit your modified files to the backup, set the clock correctly again, and voila!
      This is why the signing service should be run by a separate business entity with a reputation to protect. If I had the money, I'd hire Counterpane. "Open source" != "securely implementable in-house".

      There are no end of ways to work around the system, at some point it has to be "fit for purpose". Automating everything and locking the machines down in a secure location with logs of who accessed that location and when is probably good enough, no? After all, if there is something really damaging that you want to get rid of, "Damn, we had a fire in our storage center" or "Lost in transit" are actually much easier to pull off and leave no recovery method.
      Only one storage center and no offsite backup? No offsite backup of the copy you sent by courier? You're probably not SOX compliant.

      (I don't know SOX; I do know HIPAA, but it's considerably more lenient).
  79. It's already been solved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This problem has already been solved: http://www.proofspace.com/

  80. Re:Go with SenSage by GringoGoiano · · Score: 1

    You'll never roll-your-own for cheaper than SenSage/EMC-Centera.

    SenSage is a commercial log storage product/archiver design for Linux clusters and built on open source software (backend: C++/Perl; GUI-client: Java; CLI: Perl; Agents: Perl). Not only can you store gigabytes of log data every day, you can run queries over billions of rows in a minute -- your roll-your-own won't allow that. Any PCI compliance solution must not only store log info but also let you analyze it -- analysis also will lead to better operational monitoring, and better security (if you're worried about being hacked from outside, worry much more about an inside job! -- only archival/analysis will give you proof of past wrongdoing for inside jobs). And when it comes to figuring how best to satisfy specific compliance issues (beyond just storing the log data), they've done all the hard work for you for HIPAA, PCI, SOX, etc. Tracking down and complying with your particular regulations would take a long time on your own.

    Added benefit: the back end archives log data to a huge write-once read-many EMC Centera device. You can keep your log data around for ten+ years.

    SenSage is such a good DB for log archival, it's been incorporated into offerings by EMC, IBM, HP. See, for example the "HP Compliance Log Warehouse appliance" ( http://compliancehome.com/news/FISMA/10902.html ) -- it's HP's version of SenSage.

  81. Mandatory Access Controls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not use something like SElinux, or my preference RSBAC, with which you can make the file appendable only outside of unix access controls, and if the box is compromised the files can not be changed. Try doing that with OpenBSD or anything else.

  82. Previous crypto-related work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You may want to take a look at this paper, my MsC Thesis which builds exactly on the problem you mention:

    Preserving cybercrime evidence:

    http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/views/edoc_download.p hp/2555/pdf/imm2555.pdf

    It is based on a Bruce Schneider paper regarding secure logging and tamper proofing via cryptography.
    Best regards

  83. EMC Ships Centera + Open-Source-based SenSage by GringoGoiano · · Score: 1

    See other comment posted above this one for description of SenSage.

    EMC ships their Centera with a very good software package from SenSage built specifically for log storage/analysis and compliance. While SenSage isn't free, it's a good open-source-based software product. It's incorporated into products from EMC, IBM, HP, etc.

  84. WORM == EMC-Centera (WORM) w/ SenSage(log archive) by GringoGoiano · · Score: 1

    See prior posts about SenSage -- it employs a write-once read-many storage device (EMC Centera) and a commercial but open-source-based log archival/analysis engine (SenSage).

  85. Compliance by ajs318 · · Score: 1

    If you can't even spell HIPAA then how can you possibly hope to be compliant with it?

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  86. Published code to do this in late 1980s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I published a virtual disk driver that emulated a WORM (mostly) on a cryptodisk for this purpose in the late 1980s sometime; look on the VMS SIG tapes. The code implements an encrypted virtual disk, but the device driver, above a "fence" block number, will only write to the container if the container has a predefined magic number all over it. Otherwise the write is not done (I don't recall if it pretended to succeed or not). The trick is to set up a filestructure so the index file and directories are below the "fence" and there were a few mods to filesystem calls within the driver to assist there; the disk driver also disallowed delete and I had to supply some code to generate the disks. Intent was to use it for encrypted logs. The driver checked that it ran from system startup ONLY, and a second version of the driver using same key was built (intent was to run it from a floppy) that could allow setup of the thing. This had to do with key management. The encrypted disk was not to block access, but to make it really obvious if someone tampered with the container file and make it useless to just access the container file to read or mess with logs. It worked fine, allowed normal apps to have encrypted logs by just having them write to files on the device. Someone could tweak the truecrypt program which is free and in source to do basically this trick and have a free solution. It is not 100% perfect but covers a lot of the map particularly when you recall that you can access the container exclusively from your driver associated code, so others have a hard time getting to it. Someone CAN tamper, but they have problems tampering undetected. BTW if someone erases index file etc. you have to use filestructure recovery techniques. Blocking delete or directory moves or overwrite in the driver prevents some of the easier attacks so as long as you can ensure by other methods ("take em out in the back and shoot em") that people leave the startup alone this is not too shabby.
    Glenn Everhart (see www.gce.com for some other stuff of mine.)

  87. SOX and HIPAA compliant audit logs by chonet4444 · · Score: 1

    Novell Sentinel (formerly eSecurity) should meet your needs.

  88. chmod by Tiger+Smile · · Score: 1

    chmod 0000 logfile
    chmod 0200 logfile
    Start syslog
    chmod 0004 logfile

    That might be enough. Make sure you log roller set perms to read only, and never delete. That should get you odd the hook quickly. Follow up with checking the logs into subversion, at least on a nightly bases, or every 60 seconds if you are like me. It also doesn't hurt to log to syslog host that nobody has network access to.

    Enjoy.

    --
    -- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri
    1. Re:chmod by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      These are NOT unalterable logs by any stretch of the imagination! These are logs that people can't casually or accidentally break, which has no relevance for governmental compliance. Consider the fundamental premise behind SOX legislation, and then ask yourself this question:

      Could Bernie Ebbers hire someone to break this system?

      What the OP needs is a truly write-once system. CDROM is marginally acceptable for this purpose, only if the infrastructure around it is regulated and controlled. Systems like NetApp's SnapLock and LockVault are the real answers, but very spendy. Simple commands don't solve the problem. OpenSource solutions won't address the liability issues.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    2. Re:chmod by cduffy · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say that an open source solution is infeasible. Cryptographic protocols for this kind of thing are well-established; I believe Applied Cryptography, 2nd edition included one when I read it a few times back in school. The result is not necessarily write-once -- but it is tamper-evident, which is close enough for horseshoes. (For true write-once, after all, one needs to use WORM media... and how many folks do that?)

      The one that comes to mind is use of a digital notary service which does chained, timestamped signatures (such that each signature also includes the hashes of the documents which were signed before it, such that no documents can be added or removed to the history chain).

      For obvious reasons, this digital notary service should be controlled by a separate, unrelated entity with no interest in the records being archived and a great deal of interest in its reputation. Perhaps Counterpane could be hired for the purpose? They'd also be some of the best folks available to implement it.

    3. Re:chmod by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      Actually, I worded that poorly. OSS isn't inherently an unusable solution for this problem. However, a roll-your-own system is. As I wrote in this post, OSS could be a fine solution as long as there's a disinterested party behind it. Your suggestion of Counterpane makes sense, but I would expect them to come to the table with a solution, rather than me having to decide on the solution and then present it to them. How they implement it and what software they use is (from a legal standpoint) irrelevant, as long as it works, and they're willing to own the liability of the system.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    4. Re:chmod by Tiger+Smile · · Score: 1

      Could he hire anyone to break any system at all? Yes. Your point it a good one, but still almost moot.

      --
      -- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri
    5. Re:chmod by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Could he hire anyone to break any system at all?
      No.

      There are cryptographic protocols which are provably secure (at least within the bounds of current technology). When such protocols are correctly implemented within a real-world system with adequate safeguards, it is entirely possible to set up security mechanisms which hold (for adequately restricted values of "hold" -- such as being tamper-evident rather than tamper-proof) even against attacks by major governments. Such a system needs to be designed to withstand collusion between multiple insiders (who presumably can be bought) -- but such is not impossible, only very difficult.

      Saying that an opponent with resources which, while substantial, are less than those which major governments use to protect or steal each others' secrets could break any system whatsoever is simply giving up.
  89. Use a tenix data diode by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We use a tenix data diode.

    Its a truly one way data communication system so our syslog server runs on a network that can receive syslogs without ANY data flow in the other direction. There is no way of remote hackers logging on or compromising the syslog server to modify the logs to hide their trails. It also has a file copy function so log files can be periodically copied to it(again - no reverse path of information) as a secure log archive. The only way logs can be modified is via local access to the machine, and it is locked away tight!

  90. Destruction Protocol by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    And how about tech and biz processes to destroy all those archives once they're expired?

    The US has gone in the opposite direction of the rest of the modern world, requiring data retention by business, healthcare, telecom (but, not ironically, by government). The rest of the world has data retention laws and practices requiring data be destroyed once the original transaction dependent on it has completed, and after any reasonable auditing latency has expired. These archives are piling up. Not only is storing them a waste of space (virtual and physical) and tracking them adding complexity to management. They are also the stuff that privacy invasion is made of.

    If the IT industry ensures that archive expiration and data "termination" is always part of the process, built into software and business processes to extend "archive/restore" into "archive/restore/delete", we will make our jobs easier. And we will make protecting our privacy that much easier.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  91. PGP/GPG clearsigning by redelm · · Score: 1
    "Clearsigning" is a cryptomethod to verify the authenticity of information without rendering it unreadable. This might meet your requirement if any software can.

    For truly unalterable logs, a hardware solution like a printer in a locked room or signed, registered CDROMs is necessary. But even they can be subverted by sufficiently funded opponents.

    Ultimately, nothing is unalterable.

    1. Re:PGP/GPG clearsigning by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Clearsigning alone isn't enough -- someone can delete a clearsigned file, and you'll never know it went missing.

      You also need to chain them -- have the signed data include the signatures for the last several signed entries -- and have a separately located, controlled, and secured trusted system be responsible for applying those signatures (and maintaining accurate timestamps within them; probably it should be its own Tier 1 time server, which isn't all that expensive with the ubiquity of GPS equipment these days).

    2. Re:PGP/GPG clearsigning by redelm · · Score: 1
      Of course the datetime field is covered by the clearsigning. And a missing file is obvious when the sequence is chronologically fixed.

      However, you have a good point that data retention has to be considered. But the OP only asked for alteration.

    3. Re:PGP/GPG clearsigning by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Of course the datetime field is covered by the clearsigning.
      But who provides the datetime field? Is it part of the data being clearsigned, or part of the signature? If the former, it's inadequate -- the notary service should be able to vouch for the point in time when the signing took place, in a way which can't be subverted by the entity requesting the signature. (I used to know OpenPGP quite well -- tried to do a GnuPG port to PalmOS once -- but that was a long time ago, and memory retention has never been among my strengths).

      And a missing file is obvious when the sequence is chronologically fixed.
      Only if the files can't be copied or renamed without notice. Copy ${RANDOM_GOOD_AUDIT_LOG} over ${BAD_AUDIT_LOG} and it may be noticed if a human looks at it and sees that the timestamps within the data are wrong -- but a typical quick little check-all-the-signatures shell script won't.

      However, you have a good point that data retention has to be considered. But the OP only asked for alteration.
      Adding or removing a file from a sequence of files (or overwriting one file in the sequence with another having an individually valid signature) is alteration, or close as makes no difference. Sure, it's alteration of the sequence, rather than alteration of an individual file, but do you think that makes any difference from a SOX-compliance perspective?

      That said... the HIPAA requirements for what constitutes write-once status (as our HIPAA consultant explained them to us) are laughable. I'm presuming in all of this that SOX is a bit more serious.
  92. Yes, there is one thing by Rudd-O · · Score: 1

    Fire.

    --
    Rudd-O - http://rudd-o.com/
  93. Use a couple of CD-R or DVD-R burners by crovira · · Score: 1

    The logs are permanent, unalterable and accessible to your forensic team.

    Just cycle them between the burners and make sure that they get unmounted and stored safely.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
  94. In addition to write-once, publish signed digests by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Whatever solution you come up with, you should also create a signed hash of the log file and publish it on your web site and in the local paper every day or every week.

    People have been doing that for years. Granted, hash collisions are possible but it makes it all but impossible for someone to tamper with the logs in a way that will do them any good, provided you have reliable backups.

    If you can trust that the logs won't be tampered with between the time they are created and the time the signature is published, you don't even need a write-once solution.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  95. It's HIPAA not HIPPA by opkool · · Score: 2, Informative

    Hi,

    It's HIPAA not HIPPA.

    See Wikipedia, among others:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Insurance_Port ability_and_Accountability_Act.

    Peace

  96. Re:An idea -probably deeply flawed by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

    Neat.

    One thing I'd add: ability to ``restart'' the md5. ie: if someone alters a few records, you don't want that to screw up 99% of the other correct data. Maybe restart your stream every 20 records, and wrap it inside a similar stream?

    --

    "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

  97. Make your Auditors and Legal people happy. by jamcc · · Score: 1

    And if that means you don't cheap out and go OSS, don't worry about it. If you're in a place subject to these woes ^H^H^H^H regulations, then by all means it's probably not your money you're spending on it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of OSS, but when it comes to keeping lawyers and auditors at bay, you take the plunge and buy the real stuff. And you pay the 35% service contract fee too. I had a situation where something we were doing wouldn't pass muster with our SOX auditor. I asked her for if she could tell me what would pass. She could not. Instead, she offered that if I posed the question another way, she could answer. That meant asking "how have you seen other companies meet this or a similar requirement?" And she told me right away a number of things that would work in my particular situation. Applying that logic here, you can't ask an auditor for advice, but they will tell you if you ask the question the correct way. And if they know and have seen Centera, it's a review of the configuration on the frame and you're done. Do you really want to spend all day explaining this custom rig up of Linux syslog server with logfiles on a partition that is mirroring off to CDR drives, how syslog works, how your box is locked down, etc., etc., etc? OSS Fits. But not everything.

  98. WORM media subvertible by redelm · · Score: 1
    If you don't have tight physical security on the the media, how is it unalterable? Just take a disk and burn an identical replacement copy with your desired alterations. You need some way of making sure disks aren't swapped.

    1. Re:WORM media subvertible by jd · · Score: 1
      This depends on how secure you want each disk. For basic security, all you need is for each entry written to disk to be digitally signed. An attack would then require obtaining the correct public key used for the digital signature. If you want to extend this, have a unique public key for each application or driver.

      For more security, have each app sign the stuff and THEN have each server encrypt the data according to their key.

      You may also be able to use something from NIST's list of authenticated encryption modes to add extra security.

      In a case like this, you might even want to get cryptographic hashes of the complete disk, say using Whirlpool and SHA-256, and place those on the next disk. As this becomes part of the content of the next disk, it alters that disk's hashes and is reflected on the disk after, and so on. So to change one disk requires changing ALL subsequent disks - an operation that rapidly becomes more expensive than it is worth.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  99. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! The acid test is... by swordgeek · · Score: 1

    For every option you consider, ask yourself this question:

    Could Bernie Ebbers hire someone to break my system?

    This is one case where I would firmly say stay away from roll-your-own OSS. Buy a commercial product with a contract assigning liability, and get your lawyers to bless it. The company can use OSS if they want, but the responsibility of the system's integrity is NOT something you want to take on. This isn't a technical challenge, it's a legal one. To understand, compare it with backup software.

    Case #1) You have been told to come up with a backup scheme for your company's data. After some research you decide on Amanda, writing disk-to-disk-to-tape, which is stored offsite. You write up the exposure document (i.e. the data centre burns down before the current tape is sent offsite, and you lose 48 hours of data) and the execs sign off on it. If you are confident in your technical choices and skills, then this is a fine solution. When the data centre burns down, you go to the vault and recover the data from the last tape, just like the document says.

    Case #2) You have been told to come up with an unalterable logging scheme for SOX/HIPAA compliance. After some research you decide on some OSS tools. You write up the risk document (in this case, pointing out how the system could be compromised) and the execs sign off on it. Two years later, your CEO gets called in front of a grand jury for fraud charges. You get called as a subject matter expert, and some very belligerent prosecution lawyer says, "prove to me, the judge, and this jury of 12 random people BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that these logs could not have been altered in any way, shape, or form by the CEO or anyone else, including yourself." What if the code is buggy? What if there's a flaw in the logic? What if the jury just doesn't get it, and you aren't given the time to properly explain? It doesn't matter if those logs aren't altered, or even if they're unalterable--what matters is the due diligence, and reasonable belief. If you can say, "We bought this product from NetApp and according to our contract, the federal government certifies this implementation as being unalterable," then your job is done. Your CEO may hang or not, depending partly on his guilt or innocent, but you are off the hook. If you build it yourself, you could end up sharing a cell with the CEO.

    Buy a product. Let someone else take the risk, and do the research.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
  100. Umm, chattr +i ? by Penguinisto · · Score: 1
    Seriously - as soon as the log is full, cron a script to make the file immutable (cmd: chattr +i). Until you issue chattr -i, that fscker is locked, even to root. Any decent Backup/DR app will retain the immutable attribute as well. You can read it all day long, but you'll never write to it... 'course, you'll never be able to delete it either, but you can unlock it after it gets backed-up/transferred.

    It ain't perfect (after all, the sysadmin can still mod the thing back to writeability), but it's an often overlooked means to make sure the file contents don't change, and it's easily scriptable.

    Just a thought.

    /P

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  101. Crypto plus trusted certifying authority by UltraOne · · Score: 1

    To guard against alteration, take your log file (rotated at intervals that are reasonable given resources and your security requirements) and generate a cryptographically secure hash. Send that hash over a secure connection to a trusted certifying authority (CA). The CA appends a timestamp to the hash and digitally signs the message using a public-key cryptosystem. They send the signed, timestamped hash back to you, and also retain their own log of the hashes for added security.

    Multiple CAs can be used for added security, since all would have to be subverted in order for you to alter a the log file without detection.

    Guarding against deletion is simply a backup problem. You must provide physical security for whatever backup media is chosen to the level needed for your specific requirements.

  102. Cryptographic Support for Secure Logs on Untrusted by rmp · · Score: 1

    I'm far from an expert on this, but I'm surprised that no one has pointed out: http://www.schneier.com/paper-secure-logs.html A classic paper on how to do just this. IIRC correctly, it describes a scheme to add a digest to each log record/line which includes the digest of the prior record/line. So, in order to tamper with a record you have to tamper with all the following records/lines as well. Security by induction ;) ~rmp

    --
    ~rmp
  103. Spelling please! by SixDimensionalArray · · Score: 1

    It's spelled HIPAA!!!!!! Sorry, that drives me crazy!

    -6D

  104. PCI-DSS logging and transmission requirements by einhverfr · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ok, I am not saying that one shouldn't encrypt. I think one generally should, but here are the requirements and relevant sections paraphrased:

    3.1: Store only what you must.
    3.2: Do not store sensitive authentication data (CVV, CVV2, magnetic stripe) subsequent to authorization.
    3.3: Mask the credit card number when it must be displayed whenever possible
    3.4: Render PAN (Credit Card account number) unreadible anywhere it is stored. If this is not possible, see appendix B for acceptable compensating controls.

    Note that 3.4 does apply to backup media, logs, etc. The simple approach is don't log credit card numbers. And don't store them in your MySQL database in plain text (as does OSCommerce in at least one configuration).

    4.1, cardholder data must be encripted when transmitted across "open, public networks." Presumably corporate intranets are excluded from this requirement but I would just as soon encrypt everywhere.

    4.2: Never send credit card numbers via email.

    10.1: Establish practices that allow you to track any administrative or root action and associate that with each individual user. In other words, you must be able to show not only what root did, but also which individual did it. I suspect that restricting root to *one* person and giving others access to sudo would be sufficient provided that sudo -s and su are prohibited from being used.

    10.5: Protect audit trails against unauthorized modifications. This does not mean write once. It simply requires that the media be "difficult to alter." However, periodically backing recent logs up to optical disks would likely be a good practice.

    10.7: log data must be retained for at least one year, and at least three months must be available online.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  105. We do this with open source by Sheik+Yerbouti · · Score: 1

    Here's how syslog-ng for centralized logging PHP syslog-ng for a sweet web front end to slice and dice the data when needed. Using syslog-ng filters which are very sophisticated. Send one copy of the data to a mysql DB for php syslog-ng and one to plain old text files. We use dvdtools and to burn the text files once a night to a DVD. you could do so more often if need be we leave the disk as multisession but there seems to be a practical limit of about 99 sessions so we do 90 days. I also have syslog-ng filter setup to send warning and above to a separate file where I parse it with OSSEC HIDS (just on the central log server) for funny business in the logs which get's emailed to a special alert email box I have set up. Also check out campin.net for good open source centralized logging infos

  106. Cryptographic solution: Logcrypt by Boatman · · Score: 1

    Crypto can take you surprisingly far in this case:
    http://lunkwill.org/cv/logcrypt_update.pdf

    Abstract: Logcrypt provides strong cryptographic assurances that data stored by a logging facility before a system compromise cannot be modified after the compromise without detection. We build on prior work by showing how log creation can be separated from log verification, and describing several additional performance and convenience features not previously considered.

    --
    --Just the place for a snark!
  107. HIPAA and you by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

    Yes but Hipaa is pretty generic. Most of the Hippa regs are Already state requirements for many states (though not nearly all...)

    --
    How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
  108. software on beta program by idj1 · · Score: 1

    I work for a software company that has just developed an innovative solution addressing the immutability of logs.

    It is not OSS but we are now going through a beta program and if your company qualifies for it, we could certainly solve your problem.

    Let me know if you are interested,

    Best regards

  109. use md5sums as encryption keys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    take the first day's log and get the md5sum for it. use a starter key to encrypt and zip the logfile.

    the next day, use the md5sum of the previous day's zipped log as the encryption key for the new logfile.

    once this system is in place, and change to any logfile would change the md5sum and then it would be unable to decrypt the next day's log, which means it was tampered with.

    every logfile would have to be re-processed to tamper with one log. if the person doing the tampering doesn't know how the system works, there will be a trail of evidence.

    or something like that.

  110. Re:Go with SenSage by cduffy · · Score: 1

    You'll never roll-your-own for cheaper than SenSage/EMC-Centera.
    Let me correct that:
        You'll never roll-your-own comparable solution for cheaper than SenSage/EMC-Centra.
    There, done.

    Not everyone needs gigabytes of log data every day, or even hundreds of megs. If you're designing something to meet extremely demanding requirements, you're clearly going to make design decisions which involve more development time and expenditure than if you were designing to target less extensive requirements. On the low end, one can keep logs on random-access media (with offsite backup) and contract with a third party digital notary service such as Surety or DigiStamp to make them tamper evident.

    Nearly as capable as the SenSage solution? Of course not. Cheaper? Hell, yes.
  111. /dev/null and /dev/random by corychristison · · Score: 1

    /dev/null would be great! And you could use /dev/random to read it! ;-)

    But in all seriousness, would you not be able to create something like /dev/writeonly and pipe it through a socket into a file. That way you could only feed in data. Pass the socket data to a program/driver/something to write the data to a file in which only that single program can write.

    Just a thought.. I have no idea if it would work as I'm at work in a Windows-freaking-only environment. *sigh*
    P.S. - And no! I will not get back to work! ;-)

  112. I'm a PCI QSA - You've got it all wrong by Riskable · · Score: 3, Informative

    Let me first state that I'm a PCI Qualified Security Assessor. That means I am certified by PCI to perform audits and report back to banks whether or not a company is compliant or not. In other words, consider me authoritative on this matter.

    When dealing with any PCI requirement the most important thing to think about is the INTENT. Is the intent of the logging requirements in section 10 of the PCI DSS to prevent anyone, anywhere, from EVER being able to modify log files? No! The intent is to prevent a compromised system from altering its own log files--hiding the fact that it has been compromised. As long as your logging solution handles this situation effectively you really don't have anything to worry about.

    In my role as auditor I would never fail a syslog host just because it was writing to a standard ext3 volume. I *would* fault a company if their logging solution was poorly configured (insecure: say, running telnetd) or was write-accessible by the same admins that send all their log data to it (unless they were a small company--if you only have one or two admins there's only so much separation of privilege you can get away with). I'd also have problems with a syslog host that wasn't backing itself up on a regular basis (90 days online, 3 year archive).

    If I were you I'd be more concerned with your logging system meeting the other requirements of the PCI DSS. If it is inherently insecure or fails to implement proper access controls (say, shared root account) who cares how the logging solution is configured?

    Remember: Intent is everything. If in doubt, call your acquirer (i.e. your bank). They're the ones who ultimately have to decide whether or not your implementation is good enough anyway. The auditor just writes a report--the bank has to sign off on it.

    --
    -Riskable
    "Those who choose proprietary software will pay for their decision!"
  113. 2 Systems... by ThinkDifferently · · Score: 1

    You have 2 systems, the system you manage and audit, and a second system that someone else manages. You periodically (daily, hourly, minutely) archive your log files to the second system. The second party can easily make it so that you can read anything you've sent there, write a file only once, but not modify it or delete it. They manage it, not you.

    I like to do this in Solaris with syslog files. Those aren't audit files per se, but anything logged by syslogd can easily be sent to a host rather than to a log file, or both. There's nothing that says that other host has to be something you manage. It could easily be a host that your local security officer manages and won't ever let you touch or even get physically near.

    For files that the Basic Security Module (BSM) generates, I haven't quite figured out how to have a WORM system, other than archiving them off of the server daily. Once they are archived by the local backup team, they are out of our hands at least...but there's nothing preventing them, other than ethics, from altering their copies.

    I think the best you can hope for is a good 2 system setup as I describe above, but in order to check & balance both sides, you keep a checksum of the file before you send it and they checksum it after receipt. The checksums should always match on both sides, and neither party should have access to the other party's system.

  114. Unalterable Audit Logs? by Coffeesloth · · Score: 1

    My company writes all of the logs we don't want altered to the database, then uses Crystal Reports to pull the data out for display. For our clients that have purchased Crystal to write their own custom reports they access the tables via a read only database login so there's no issue of altering the data. We also maintain a change history of all table edits and keep track of the locations in the system a user touches for HIPPA reporting.

    If you want to make sure they logs are read only I'd say you need to use a similar route.

  115. UDF on CDR or DVDR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    UDF format for DVDR or CDR allows almost arbitrarily small writes. Unfortunately there is no UDF format support for Linux for CDR or DVDR, only CDRW and DVDRW which have a different blocking structure. Can someone tell me why this is the case? Toast and other packages can do it on commercial operating systems.

  116. Really, a point to all of this? by inaequitas · · Score: 1

    Don't get me wrong, I completely agree some things should be set in stone with respect to audits and what have you, but let's consider the facts: a company that's under pressure from whomever enforces SOX but has quite a large volume of cash on hand will generally find a way to alter some logs were they keen on doing so. Even using some sort of feedback loop encryption/hashing method might be circumvented, albeit harder.

    Smaller companies won't do it, but the big fish can probably bribe the right people when needed.

  117. Bittorrent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you need it kept secret, encrypt it with a really good algorithm. Then seed it through bittorrent/P2P and it won't be possible to change or remove ALL those copies.

    "Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

    It's been 43 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment"

  118. Minor correction by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    PCI-DSS 1.1 requires that cardholder data is encrypted during transport only if the network an open public network (such as the internet or public wireless networks). It also requires that certain information such as the primary account number (cc number) is not stored in a readible format. One may use strong public key encryption, one-way-hashes, and the like. So you can log an md5 hash of the credit card number, but not the number itself.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  119. Re:Go with SenSage by Xenophon+Fenderson, · · Score: 1

    Would someone please mod the parent up? This is the first time I've seen a Slashdot commenter abbreviate "the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act" correctly.

    (What with all this talk about audit logs eating up tons of disk space, I find myself wanting to play "Hungry Hungry HIPAAs"! *rimshot*)

    --
    I'm proud of my Northern Tibetian Heritage
  120. Re:Go with SenSage by mfnickster · · Score: 1

    This is the first time I've seen a Slashdot commenter abbreviate "the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act" correctly.

    That would be the "Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act," or "NAMBLA"..?

    --
    "Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
  121. Re:Go with SenSage by Xenophon+Fenderson, · · Score: 1

    Another correct Slashdot commentor!

    --
    I'm proud of my Northern Tibetian Heritage
  122. Print logs? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    You are joking? Ha, ha, ha, good one.

    What would one do when a machine in the network goes bananas and generates 1000000 alerts you where not anticipating. I hope you have a warehouse big enough for all that paper.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  123. Nonsense. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Paper is not searchable, is cumbersome to handle, expensive, and in any machine with a modicum of activity you'll not have enough of it (lets forego ecological considerations, which we shouldn't).

    I any moderately sized datacentre the proposition of using printed logs is frankly childish.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Nonsense. by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Paper is not searchable, is cumbersome to handle, expensive, ...

      RTFA. The purpose of having a paper record is to satisfy the need for an "unalterable audit log". All the rest can be satified easily and cheaply by standard backup methods. You only need to get out the boxes of fanfold paper if you're called into court, to verify your digital records.

      I any moderately sized datacentre the proposition of using printed logs is frankly childish.

      Courts are going to be hard to convince that any digital logs are "unalterable". Call them childish and see how far it gets you.

  124. Bullshit. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Unless your computing infrastructure is a sole machine doing pretty much nothing, this "solution" is bullshit.

    Once you have a few tens of servers only a mad man would consider this "alternative" seriously.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  125. An internal CA is acceptable.... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    As long as the people administering the CA hosts are not the same administering the log servers and this is demonstrable (password file :-) )

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  126. Good idea. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    There are products out there to secure connections, at the very least one can use an ssh tunnel, but that still leaves the problem of man in the middle attack (there are commercial products that do host authentication by meeans of key repositories, but none free I would know of, although making a key repository should not be beyond the realms of an enterprising Engineering team).

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  127. Yeah, sure. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    And let the crooks run amok again.

    What is needed is sensible controls, many of the provisions are unnecessary, but a law like that is needed to make sure the big wigs behave.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  128. Use GPG by bogomip777 · · Score: 1

    Backup your log files in a suitable time frame and encrypt those backup logs with the public portion of a gpg key. Ensure that the private portion of the key (ability to decrypt / alter the file) is held by someone other than the resource owner (keep it in a safe, etc...) for which the logs are being generated. Keep an unencrypted instance of logs as needed for other tasks. Refer to the master, encrypted logs as needed in the event of forensics. Retain encrypted files on tape other other medium consistent with other requirements. This should work for PCI DSS 1.1 if the frequency of the backup is within 10.5 guidelines.

  129. Unalterable? by phorm · · Score: 1

    What exactly is so unalterable about paper? If you're keeping huge lines of paper with all the tabs unbroken or a single long sheet, maybe. If you're printing out pages, etc, then the easiest way to "alter" a piece of paper would be to just print out a new copy with different data, and replace the old. No, the old copy can't really be changed, but who can tell whether the current copy is in fact the original?

    1. Re:Unalterable? by polymath69 · · Score: 1

      I did say "line printer," so I'm implying fanfold paper. As for security, it's as secure as the room you put it in. Who do you trust to get into that room? Any solution will come down to that question at some point.

      --

      --
      I don't want to rule the world... I just want to be in charge of mayonnaise.
  130. Anything is replaceable (except me of course!) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What exactly is so unalterable about paper? If you're keeping huge lines of paper with all the tabs unbroken or a single long sheet, maybe. If you're printing out pages, etc, then the easiest way to "alter" a piece of paper would be to just print out a new copy with different data, and replace the old. No, the old copy can't really be changed, but who can tell whether the current copy is in fact the original? Your criticism applies equally well to all other forms of data storage and validation.

    Lawyer: "Yer Honor, I have here a cryptographically signed original document that contains the logs in question"

    Me: "I just rerouted DNS and BGP, replaced the CA, set up some cryptostrings, rebuilt the document and backdated my changes. Care to see the new cryptographically signed original logs that say something different?"

    Judge: "Huh?"

    At some point you have to have a human with a viable reputation involved. That human's testimony weighs more than the testimony of a person of unknown moral character. I know dozens of people who can perfectly fake any logging system you like, because they understand how PKI works and where computing technology stands. Essentially, if I build a system, I can subvert it - if not after the fact, then certainly during the buildout. I get tasked with HIPAA stuff because I have a known reputation - I teach Sunday School at the UU Church, I adopt children even though I am fertile, I have been badly beaten by police for refusing to lie, I follow Kant's "categorical imperative", etc. etc. etc... People know I will not be a party to anything dishonorable.