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Network Warrior
Fatty writes "Entry level certifications such as the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA) have become the source of many jokes to people in the industry, largely because of the seemingly inept people that proudly display their certifications. This is made worse by the volume of books geared only to get people through the exam. Network Warrior bills itself as the exact opposite — if the subtitle is to be believed it contains "Everything You Need to Know That Wasn't on the CCNA Exam". With everything from the architecture of the 6500 to layers 8 and 9 of the OSI model (politics and money), it does a pretty good job." Read below for the rest of Sean's views on this book.
Network Warrior: Everything You Need to Know That Wasn't on the CCNA Exam
author
Gary A. Donahue
pages
598
publisher
O'Reilly
rating
9
reviewer
Sean Walberg
ISBN
9780596101510
summary
A practical look at what you really need to know to run a Cisco network
The CCNA exam is supposed to test a candidate's understanding of networking fundamentals. Over the years it has expanded to include more advanced material, and now covers networking theory, switching (including spanning tree and VLANs), and some of the intermediate routing protocols such as EIGRP and OSPF. Despite the breadth of content the exam doesn't (and can't) cover things that many network folk take for granted, even things like what the "demarc" is (short for demarcation point, the the place where the carrier's responsibility ends and yours begins). While the exam's topic list is broad, the level of detail is shallow in most places. Someone may study spanning tree enough for the exam, but have no clue where to place their root bridge when they get into the real world.
It is for this reason that I found Network Warrior to be helpful. It's goal is to point out both the technical areas in which the CCNA falls short, and to teach the reader the non-Cisco aspects of running a network.
Technically I found this book quite sound. There were a few things one might disagree with but nothing that detracted from the rest of the book. In several spots the author was keen to point out behaviors that deviated from the documents, such as in Quality of Service (QoS) and in upgrading certain modules in the 6500 chassis. He also illustrated where the theoretical concepts on network design fall short in the real world.
Routing and switching takes up the first third of the book. The switching section is largely a review of the CCNA material with some notable exceptions. First and foremost is a chapter exclusively on autonegotiation. The CCNA exam may only discuss how to set a port to a fixed speed, but anyone who has worked with a network for more than a few weeks will have run into a speed or duplex mismatch. This chapter explains some of the history behind Ethernet and its relevance to autonegotiation, explains how it works, how it fails, and how to recognize the problem, and finally offers advice on when and where to use autonegotiation.
The second major deviation from the CCNA switching syllabus is in depth coverage of Etherchannel and spanning tree (STP) Both of these protocols are integral parts of network design and operation, but the exam barely touches Etherchannel and doesn't get into the complexities of spanning tree (though this changes with each iteration of the exam.) Network Warrior provides techniques and a demonstration of finding a layer 2 loop. Surprisingly though, there is only mention of standard 802.1d legacy spanning tree and some Cisco extensions such as Per VLAN STP and backbone fast, and no mention of the newer standardized enhancements of 802.1s/w (rapid spanning tree and multiple spanning tree) which have been in common use and have been put on the latest version of the exam (released after this book went to press)
The third deviation is the inclusion of CatOS commands instead of just IOS like the exam. As the author repeatedly points out, CatOS is in use on many 6500 chassis and is still in active development, so there is no reason not to know it. This theme continues throughout the book whenever the 6500 is used as an example, which is often.
The routing chapters are full of new material. The sections on the routing protocols themselves are short and don't add much beyond what the CCNA certification teaches. Redistribution and route-maps, however, are well explained. These two technologies which can be used separately or together can be found on almost any network and are very complex. I thought these sections were well done, as they gave enough details to be practical without getting down into all the different scenarios. Tunnels make an appearance in these chapters, which themselves aren't very complex, but aren't a part of the CCNA blueprint.
At this point, roughly page 180 of 550, the rest of the material isn't found in the CCNA blueprint.
Part 3 of the book is all about multilayer switching, specifically the 3750 and 6500 platforms. In particular the description of the 6500 architecture is much more succinct that can be found by searching on Cisco.com. There is an in depth explanation of how the various backplanes on the chassis works, which leads to an explanation of how to determine which cards are slowing down your switch.
I think the hidden gem of the book is part 4, though, which is all about telecom. In these chapters are an explanation of how carriers operate and how to speak the lingo of telecom techs. Even though networks are moving to Ethernet based services, traditional DS1, DS3, ATM, and frame-relay networks are still commonplace. The book has a solid explanation of how TDM based circuits actually work, the various options available to you, and how to properly order and troubleshoot them. I think back to when I was getting started in this field, and dealing with carriers was difficult.
Quality of Service, the features that let you guarantee and limit bandwidth to different types of traffic, have a section in this book too. The book largely focuses on the simple weighted-fair queuing (WFQ) and the current class-based WFQ with low latency queuing for voice. Configuration instructions can be found on Cisco's site easily enough, but Network Warrior delves into some of the behavioral aspects the documents shy away from such as when the queuing mechanisms actually get used. There is also a solid look at how to make sure the QoS is working as intended.
In the middle of all of this are chapters on the firewall and load balancing modules for the 6500, the PIX firewall, and IOS based load balancing. For someone with an ecommerce slant these might prove helpful, but given that these topics are books in themselves, it's hard to do them justice in a few chapters.
The last part of the book is on network design, which encompasses not only the steps needed to build a network, but also planning IP address allocations and how to pitch your ideas to management. Again, the book is not trying to be the definitive text on the subject, but it manages to impart a few words of wisdom, especially the so-called "GAD's Maxims", and "How not to be a computer jerk".
Well thought out examples were plentiful, along with anecdotes from the author, usually showing the consequences of doing things wrong. The illustrations did a great job of conveying the point at hand. Even though I've been doing this stuff for a while I learned several time saving techniques that I've already been able to put to use.
This is a great book for people just getting into the industry, with their CCNA or without. It offers practical advice rather than dry textbook like explanations which is a welcome change. Even those with a few years of experience under their belt will be happy reading through Network Warrior.
Sean Walberg is a network engineer and author living in Winnipeg, Canada.
You can purchase Network Warrior from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
The CCNA exam is supposed to test a candidate's understanding of networking fundamentals. Over the years it has expanded to include more advanced material, and now covers networking theory, switching (including spanning tree and VLANs), and some of the intermediate routing protocols such as EIGRP and OSPF. Despite the breadth of content the exam doesn't (and can't) cover things that many network folk take for granted, even things like what the "demarc" is (short for demarcation point, the the place where the carrier's responsibility ends and yours begins). While the exam's topic list is broad, the level of detail is shallow in most places. Someone may study spanning tree enough for the exam, but have no clue where to place their root bridge when they get into the real world.
It is for this reason that I found Network Warrior to be helpful. It's goal is to point out both the technical areas in which the CCNA falls short, and to teach the reader the non-Cisco aspects of running a network.
Technically I found this book quite sound. There were a few things one might disagree with but nothing that detracted from the rest of the book. In several spots the author was keen to point out behaviors that deviated from the documents, such as in Quality of Service (QoS) and in upgrading certain modules in the 6500 chassis. He also illustrated where the theoretical concepts on network design fall short in the real world.
Routing and switching takes up the first third of the book. The switching section is largely a review of the CCNA material with some notable exceptions. First and foremost is a chapter exclusively on autonegotiation. The CCNA exam may only discuss how to set a port to a fixed speed, but anyone who has worked with a network for more than a few weeks will have run into a speed or duplex mismatch. This chapter explains some of the history behind Ethernet and its relevance to autonegotiation, explains how it works, how it fails, and how to recognize the problem, and finally offers advice on when and where to use autonegotiation.
The second major deviation from the CCNA switching syllabus is in depth coverage of Etherchannel and spanning tree (STP) Both of these protocols are integral parts of network design and operation, but the exam barely touches Etherchannel and doesn't get into the complexities of spanning tree (though this changes with each iteration of the exam.) Network Warrior provides techniques and a demonstration of finding a layer 2 loop. Surprisingly though, there is only mention of standard 802.1d legacy spanning tree and some Cisco extensions such as Per VLAN STP and backbone fast, and no mention of the newer standardized enhancements of 802.1s/w (rapid spanning tree and multiple spanning tree) which have been in common use and have been put on the latest version of the exam (released after this book went to press)
The third deviation is the inclusion of CatOS commands instead of just IOS like the exam. As the author repeatedly points out, CatOS is in use on many 6500 chassis and is still in active development, so there is no reason not to know it. This theme continues throughout the book whenever the 6500 is used as an example, which is often.
The routing chapters are full of new material. The sections on the routing protocols themselves are short and don't add much beyond what the CCNA certification teaches. Redistribution and route-maps, however, are well explained. These two technologies which can be used separately or together can be found on almost any network and are very complex. I thought these sections were well done, as they gave enough details to be practical without getting down into all the different scenarios. Tunnels make an appearance in these chapters, which themselves aren't very complex, but aren't a part of the CCNA blueprint.
At this point, roughly page 180 of 550, the rest of the material isn't found in the CCNA blueprint.
Part 3 of the book is all about multilayer switching, specifically the 3750 and 6500 platforms. In particular the description of the 6500 architecture is much more succinct that can be found by searching on Cisco.com. There is an in depth explanation of how the various backplanes on the chassis works, which leads to an explanation of how to determine which cards are slowing down your switch.
I think the hidden gem of the book is part 4, though, which is all about telecom. In these chapters are an explanation of how carriers operate and how to speak the lingo of telecom techs. Even though networks are moving to Ethernet based services, traditional DS1, DS3, ATM, and frame-relay networks are still commonplace. The book has a solid explanation of how TDM based circuits actually work, the various options available to you, and how to properly order and troubleshoot them. I think back to when I was getting started in this field, and dealing with carriers was difficult.
Quality of Service, the features that let you guarantee and limit bandwidth to different types of traffic, have a section in this book too. The book largely focuses on the simple weighted-fair queuing (WFQ) and the current class-based WFQ with low latency queuing for voice. Configuration instructions can be found on Cisco's site easily enough, but Network Warrior delves into some of the behavioral aspects the documents shy away from such as when the queuing mechanisms actually get used. There is also a solid look at how to make sure the QoS is working as intended.
In the middle of all of this are chapters on the firewall and load balancing modules for the 6500, the PIX firewall, and IOS based load balancing. For someone with an ecommerce slant these might prove helpful, but given that these topics are books in themselves, it's hard to do them justice in a few chapters.
The last part of the book is on network design, which encompasses not only the steps needed to build a network, but also planning IP address allocations and how to pitch your ideas to management. Again, the book is not trying to be the definitive text on the subject, but it manages to impart a few words of wisdom, especially the so-called "GAD's Maxims", and "How not to be a computer jerk".
Well thought out examples were plentiful, along with anecdotes from the author, usually showing the consequences of doing things wrong. The illustrations did a great job of conveying the point at hand. Even though I've been doing this stuff for a while I learned several time saving techniques that I've already been able to put to use.
This is a great book for people just getting into the industry, with their CCNA or without. It offers practical advice rather than dry textbook like explanations which is a welcome change. Even those with a few years of experience under their belt will be happy reading through Network Warrior.
Sean Walberg is a network engineer and author living in Winnipeg, Canada.
You can purchase Network Warrior from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
Can't geeks do anything network related without pretending to be gladiators? Wardriving, network warrior, DMZ, ...
Anyone have useful opinion on this - please spare me the "they are all paper-certs that used braindumps"
They must serve a good purpose somewhere...
... seriosuly, how does it compare to the W R Stevens books?
Why UNIX?
BTW--what is this 6500? And what is this .... 'OSI model'? Is that a new router or something?
My blog
After moving to a different state, the first interview I went on was with a larger company. After being a Windows/Mac admin (this is in the mid-90s) for a couple years, I was vaguely surprised that I knew the answer to almost none of their very obscure questions. I had been one of three administrators of a medium-sized WAN at my old job, and nothing they asked seemed relevant at all to real-world circumstances. Disappointed at my lack of knowledge (not to mention the fact I didn't get the job), I decided to study for the MCSE, as there was clearly stuff I didn't know.
To my surprise, every single one of their obscure, imaginary-world answers were straight from sample MCSE tests. And after 10 more years working in a mixed environment, those questions still don't apply.
This book is the bible of the new era - a era without hackers, but knightly (ofc cerficated) admins
I find the discussion of this to not be accurate. The CCNA is intended to be an entry level certification for someone with little experience in networking. It is this fact that should not be overlooked when said person has a CCNA and does not know everything there is to know about configuring a router/switch. Also, topics such as multilayer switches and QoS are NOT entry level subjects. These topics are covered in great detail for the CCNP certification, which requires 4 exams to get (on top of a CCNA). Certifications show a certain level of understanding, and for the CCNA, the level of understanding should not be read as anything more than entry-level.
The same goes for anything else. Would you expect someone with a B.S. in computer science to understand advanced research topics in computing that masters and/or phd students work on?
Good one, I wish I could have added that to various exam answers over the years. :-)
Please Do Not Throw Sausage Pizza Away P? M?
I'm in the small to medium business sector and 95% of the MCSE stuff just does not apply. Single domain, single server enviornments can be a mess and still function.
When I have dealt with Enterprise level domains and networks, that knowledge does come into play, but rarely even then.
It's like using a DSL connection for VOIP. Sure, it works and well on the small scale but when you've got 400 users and deciding to use a T-1 (or multiple), is the bandwidth enough? Suddently questions of latency, packet size, backbone provider and QoS become relevant.
The difference between SMB and Enterprise is that when something breaks on the SMB side, I fix it. If I was in the Enterprise, I'd assign it to a specific group to fix it.
Sounds like this book has the CCNP/CCDP level folks in mind.
Sent from your iPad.
I've been in the office machine business for almost 26 years. I've seen techs come & go, and, for the most part, the ones with all their degrees etc, usually can't find their way out of a box. When I teach a class on a new machine, I MAKE them take a written AND practical test. I purposely screw up machines with 4 problems and give them an hour to find the problems. Not off the wall screwy problem you would never see, but, practical problems I've seen in the field. I put "customer screw up" type problems in the machine, along with what I've seen over the years break. Not only do they have to find and fix the bugs, I make them write out the step(s) they took to fix it. They have to write down what the problem is, what steps they took (including the service manuals) to test, and what part(s) they thought were messed up. This is the only way I know they learned what I taught them during the week. I've seen a lot of people who can pass a test easily, but can't fix anything.
Layers 8 and 9 can't be politics and money. As layer 7 is described as the layer closest to the user, I've long asserted that layer 8 _is_ the user. With users learning what id10ts and pebkacs are, "layer 8 error" makes for a subtle and safe alternative ;)
That's exactly the kind of shop you don't want to work for. If they don't understand which questions to ask then they don't understand what it is they need you to do (or say, that you're doing it right). Terrible situation to be stuck trying to work in.
Quack, quack.
Networking can do any thing within reason (but that reason might be dumb), I refuse to buy the logic that Cisco or a Cisco certified moron is the only way to 'tube'.
Cisco is just a brand. To prove this visit a large bookseller and look at the rows (or web pages) of Cisco education books that do the seven osi layers.
Cisco will lose it one day - and a new company will take over, those who know will laugh at all the cisco fools for once upon a time 'nobody got fired for buying ibm' too.
I dunno, the CCNA wasn't easy, and cisco doesn't really recycle thier questions like microsoft does. A CCNA will at least know a thing or 2, while there's no telling what an MSCE knows. At the very least, entry certs is a measure of how serious someone is about getting the job, simply because they go thru the cost and trouble of getting them, rather than a measure of actual knowlegde/skill. Similar to the SATs to get into college.
"to layers 8 and 9 of the OSI model"
WTF? The OSI model is what my grandpa studied in college. Who talks about OSI any more?
OK, I also studied the OSI model way way back in college, but the model has been replaced by the TCP/IP model. Hello!
seriously folks, how hard is this? are we not nerds here?
All they get you is an interview.
If that. Me, I always ask practical and experienced type questions you will not find on the exam. Which is how to separate the people who know what they are doing from those who just read the book. Not hard to do, in 5 minutes I know their level. As you say, weeds 95% out ASAP and doesn't waste my time.
CCNA's and MCSE's are good certifications, it essentially tells me that people know at least how to reboot routers, pull cable, reboot microsoft machines, and apply basic patches. I use these qualifications to find entry level helpdesk people, and provide better training if they cut the mustard after a few months.
Sorry, not on topic, but...
I get tired of hearing this crap about certification X being a joke. Any kind of memorized knowledge is a joke if you can't apply it to real world situations. There are too many people out there getting certifications without the requisite knowledge and experience necessary to actually get something done.
If a company can't interview a candidate properly and gets stuck with someone who has no ability to think for themselves, then it is there own damn fault. Too many companies just want the hiring process to be as easy as reading a list of certifications an applicant has.
I don't know, but you're not a REAL security warrior unless you have your own katana, like RMS does.
but degree != critical thinking so what is your point? I am tired of my HR team sending candidates with a degree but no real experience because "they have an Engineering degree".
Please Do Not Throw Sausage Pizza Away, Per Management
passed it years ago without ever touching a router. next job i did some minor stuff on routers and switches and the commands our WAN people taught me weren't in the CCNA books i had. And neither was our networking gear as the CCNA books had the cheapo routers Cisco sells and not the higher level stuff
So let me guess, you flunked out and now you're bitter against those who could cut it? Seen lots of you on slashdot.
This is a really nicely put together book. It fills a nice niche at Intro to Middle level of the Cisco areas somewhere just after the CCNA and probably touching on some of the CCDA topics. Its not meant as a real cookbook - that's why there is the excellent Cisco IOS cookbook also from O'Reilly which deals with the particular obsure, nutty but damn valuable gems that are out there, from Net engineers who've had the long hours and coffee to hand us great tricks.
How to place this book is like this, so you've finished or are close to your CCNA and would like some sound practical advice to round out the course or maybe to help you revise it, well this is the book for you. If you know more and are in deeper Cisco terrority well you might like this but you'd probably prefer the Cisco IOS cookbook.
Off topic - I also got a copy of Limoncelli et al's revised version of The Practise of System and Network Administration in the same batch, given the first edition was most excellent there is little to say except the second is even better. Common sense and practical knowledge without getting lost in OS or application issues.
I picked this up a couple days ago on a whim of geekyness and read it, I was intrigued by the fact that a network book existed that wasn't A. a basic what is a network B. a product specific advertisement or C. exam cram for some lame cert. It has some good points, it also fails in a few. The VLAN stuff gets glossed over like a Christmas ham, and seriously important areas to real life missing. Overall it is written well, and in a decent conversational tone. I'd say it is an OK add to a network library but it isn't going to be a book you run to for any specific answer or tidbit.
Also, i picked up Zen and the art of security as well and it too would get a 3 1/2 star rating from me. Nothing too great, nothing real bad... except the author seems a little stuck on himself and a bit of a dickwad.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Grammar flames are for those who have nothing actually useful to say, but certainly try too hard to make it seem the opposite. Not only is this all about TYPED WORDS (spell/grammar check doesn't always do you well), but I'd gather most slashdotters best language isn't English. Mine is C++.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Was probably interesting, but;
"... and finally offers advice on when and where to use autonegotiation..."
would undoubtedly be the shortest paragraph in the chapter. A single word would do.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
And I think you're dead-on. It's taken me years to learn that. That and the fact that not only am I replaceable, but so is my employer. It's definitely a two-way street and change isn't alway bad (it's usually opportunity actually, whatever you might chose to make of it).
Quack, quack.
I hope this is sarcasm , the OSI is very relevant in networking today.
"When they invent bitch slaps that can go through a monitor you better f'ing duck" --deft (253558)
I have an engineering degree and have always worked as a developer for companies that make technology products. It always amuses me how my engineering colleagues would complain about how stupid the IT staff was because there didn't have the same level of education as we did. They always assumed that they could do a better job.
The fact is that the two job areas are very different and the typical developer wouldn't last a week working in IT. The same could be said for IT types working as developers, but they'd probably last longer since you can fake it longer as a developer.
On the other hand, I'm not that amused when I type "there" instead of "they".
MSCE/CNA/A+ certificate != degree Not really, an IT certificate "usually" pertains to a technology at a certain point in time. A degree usually teaches to think intuitively and and enhance problem solving. Often why IT has issue's with paper certs.
I went into networking with NO prior experience other than setting up a simple linksys router for home-use. I learned everything I know about networking ON the job. It took me a good 3 months just to get the lingo and basics down, but afterwards I had to start plowing through vlans and the different routing protocols like BGP and OSPF.
My point is had I actually studied for a CCNA before I was hired, I would've hit the ground running most likely would've advanced to my NOC position in 3 - 4 months less time. The CCNA is not a joke. It may not teach you ALL the terminology and EVERYTHING you need to know about EVERYTHING, but it's a hell of a good start.
You're nothing; like me.
"The pro-cert people say that the certs serve as a measuring stick for non-techs who are looking to hire techs"
Fact of the matter is, non-techs (here to mean someone who has no clue) shouldn't be there to hire techs.
Certs are not really good metrics for those who have little computer experience to judge whether a person would excel at a technical role. There are plenty of people who could do "puke learning" quite well, but simply cannot apply what they've "learnt".
Resumes, CVs, etc... are not good media to convince a person whether they're qualified or not. You may say that the applicant suck at writing resume, but how are you going to document every single bit of experience that you have at, say, identifying dead hardware and replacing/reviving a dead box?
The tech-adapt, regardless whether they're certified or not, would be able to tell the difference.
At the risk of defending a "grammar nazi," you don't complain when your C++ compiler yells at you for syntax errors (e.g. forgetting a semicolon, leaving out a comma in a parameter list, misspelling a keyword, etc) so why do you complain when an English "compiler" does? :)
Having just obtained both CCNA and A+ certifications within the last 9 months, even though neither was really necessary for my current job, I feel the need to defend the CCNA exam by contrasting it with the A+ exam.
The A+ exam is a complete joke. It might have been relevant 10 years ago, but isn't anymore. The vast majority of questions were completely irrelevant today, and mostly irrelevant for any computer faster than 500MHz. Most of it was pure memorization, the kind all those cram books are for. There were very few real-world questions -- less than a half-dozen. There were even a few questions that were nonsense -- none of the answers were applicable, much less valid, and in some cases the question didn't even make sense.
The CCNA, however, is a killer. I took mine in May 2007. The first part of the exam is roughly one-third memorization questions, one-third diagram interpretation questions, and one-third real-world questions. Most of the diagram questions are trick questions with multiple realistic-looking answers. (In other words, you can't just look for the "obvious" answer.) This part of the exam is meant to test your grasp of networking concepts.
The second part of the CCNA exam is what really gets you, though. It's all about configuration. Most of it is spent in a simulator. And not just a simulator for one router or switch, but a simulator for an entire network. One of my questions involved configuring 4 different routers and 3 switches. Oh, and they can disable parts of the simulator to make your job harder -- like having to diagnose a connectivity problem without being able to ping or traceroute. And yeah, they like to throw multiple IOS versions at you to make sure you know the different variations of the commands (especially for switches). You cannot cram for these simulator-type problems.
I tend to consider myself a pretty smart guy. I've been working as a network admin for 10+ years, albeit not with Cisco equipment. I aced the classwork for the CCNA courses without putting forth any effort whatsoever. I did homework in class and never had to come in after hours to catch up. And yet, I had ~45 seconds left on the timer when I finished part 2 of the CCNA exam. It's that tough, and they've got it timed down to the last minute. You do not have time to flounder and guess.
If you don't know your stuff backwards and forwards, you are not going to pass the second half of the CCNA exam. It's that simple.
Now, having said all of that, remember: the CCNA is the entry-level exam. It's not meant to certify that you can walk into a company and rewire an international infrastructure by hand. It's meant to certify that if you put me in front of a router or a switch or a small network that is having problems, I can most likely figure out what the problem is. The building-huge-networks stuff is part of the CCNP, not the CCNA. (The first CCNP class is, after all, "Building Scalable Networks".)
I see plenty of haterade about the CCNA exam, but I never seem to see it from people that have taken the tests. And I have to wonder: for all of those exam-crammers with CCNAs that everyone seems to know, when did they get their certs and are they current? I doubt it.
The constant CCNA bashing is lame: CCNA is Cisco's lowest level certification. Instead of complaining that CCNAs don't know anything, they should be looking at CCNPs and CCNEs. The CCNE exam is damn tough: It has a large question bank so it is hard to memorize your way through it. It has scenarios instead of just multiple choice. It uses IRT scoring, and automatically adapts to your knowledge level. This test has a reputation for being really tough.
Perhaps so, but how do you hire a tech person to weed out the "puke learners" if you don't have one already? Unless your company is a pure tech company, you're looking at a "chicken or the egg" situation, where you need a technical person to hire a technical staff but you don't have a technical person to let you know whether you're looking at real technical people or not. That's where paper comes in - it's a quick shorthand to let a non-tech person know that, "Well, they at least took the time to memorize something technical - that has to be encouraging".
I, too, have never understood geek fascination with ninjas and the like - on a side note, it does make for some amusing images at DefCon. I believe my local dr.-phil-trained tele-pop-psychologist would call this "over-compensation." But far be it from me to make such an assertion ;)
-John Mark
Hyperic Community Manager
Phr34k1ng M0r0n?
Hyperic Community Manager
It's "relevant" in that TCP/IP is based on the ideas of the OSI model, and has a similar, layered architecture. In practice though, TCP/IP doesn't follow the OSI model very closely.
For example, in TCP/IP, there's only one layer above the transport layer, which makes OSI layers 5, 6, and 7 all the same. I suppose you could argue that layer 6 never really existed anyway, but that's neither here nor there.
Similarly while there's a technical distinction between layers 1 and 2, in common practice they are too interrelated to speak of as separable layers.
Does it matter!!! Well I can't tell it anymore, having finished CCNA and SCJP 5, hoped to get a job more easily. But not. Before getting certified I'd hear "How do I know you now anything if you're not certified", after certifications "those are just crap, just piece of paper", well that was a surprise, wasn't it??? Now I'm asking my self is it worth to spend more time and money on the certifications, or continue giving the money to Sun, Cisco, Microsoft, blla blla????
a week doesn't go by that I don't categorize a problem by OSI layer. It's still relevant as a logical abstraction, and it's used as such, regardless of actual protocol implementation.
Check out my sysadmin blog!
=snip-A degree usually teaches to think intuitively and and enhance problem solving.-/snip-
I call BULLSHIT. The only thing a degree means is that you had (or could borrow) the money and were content to sit on your ass for years (when you were not partying). I worked in "higher education" for many years, and at many institutions - it is all about seat time, not about learning. Anyone who is self-taught has already learned to "think intuitively and and enhance problem solving" - but "educated" assholes like you hide behind your degree like a shield, and claim that anyone who does not think like you do "does not have enough education". Keep repeating your mantra "I am a degreed -------", but repeat it to yourself - the rest of us don't want to hear your bullshit.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
(not banging on you, mind... but sometimes the grammar nazis tend to be mroe than a bit overbearing and come across as egotistical - something that even my debugger hasn't managed yet).
(of course, that only holds true until some bright soul re-writes GDB to spew "hahahahaha! you suck!" to STDOUT...)
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
I bought what I thought was a CCNA book, from Cisco, that laid out a lot of great details about networking, from LL up to TCP, and filled in plenty of the remaining gaps of my networking understanding. Emboldened by this, I looked into the CCNA exam. And it became rapidly clear to me that the CCNA has nearly nothing to do with networking, and everything to do with using Cisco's arcane, obfuscated interfaces.
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
It has come to the point that these do not help persons if they have them, it can only hurt if they do not. With a nick like mine, one can guess with confidence where I am going with this, so get those CCITT SS5 MF tone decoders ready. 8^)
Submission as evidence constitutes plaintiff and/or prosecutorial misconduct.
A discussion of the political (#8) and financial (#9) layers would be incomplete without mentioning the religious (#10) layer.
the CCNA is an entry level certification. this book covers more advanced topics, not all the topics on the CCNP, but many. the CCNA is much harder than it once was. now if anyone is a CCNA, it really holds a lot more weight. it says they can deal with things that the CCNA covers, which is basic networking. the CCNA used to be so easy (when I took it) you could pass without ever working on a router or switch, now it's pretty much mandatory. and if someone passed without ever touching a router, they're very intellegent, and you probably want them on your team.
what's all this about degrees. some people without degrees can do the job, some can't. someone having a degree isn't going to give you a definitive insight about a potentional employee. what's interesting is the Cisco certifications give you much more insight, although they're not a perfect gage, but i'd say much more so than a degree.
I interviewed with Google earlier this year, and they frowned heavily upon the fact that I couldn't recite the OSI model layers right off the top of my head. I have to be honest - I memorized the layers to pass the test, but honestly - do any of you ever refer to the layers by number beyond 3? I talk layer 2 and layer 3 all the time. I'll mention TCP/UDP (layer 4), ports (layer 5), and services running on those ports (layer 6) but I NEVER refer to them by number or name. I certainly never refer to layer 7 (application layer).
:\ Does it honestly matter?
So....what's the point? I fully understand encapsulation vs decapsulation, which direction it goes up and down the model, but for practical purposes, to this day I couldn't tell you the names of the layers.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
I'm totally "anti-paper" in every way. My interview for anyone techie is very simple - show me what you've done."
CCNA is a great help to people who wanted to change career. as a novice in networking i still didnt know alot of networking jargons and how does a network really works. I know how to connect 200 computers in a LAN and make a crossover and straight-through cables.
I'm not an expert like you guys, but, if you know something or any networking program that can help us(associates) jumpstart our knowlegde in networking and become an expert like you guys better tell it to us.. learning is a gradual process you cannot be an expert overnight.
Bitter much?
How do you get a job in network w/o experience? Seriously. I'd like to get paid to further my skills.
Certs are not really good metrics for those who have little computer experience to judge whether a person would excel at a technical role. There are plenty of people who could do "puke learning" quite well, but simply cannot apply what they've "learnt".
Resumes, CVs, etc... are not good media to convince a person whether they're qualified or not. You may say that the applicant suck at writing resume, but how are you going to document every single bit of experience that you have at, say, identifying dead hardware and replacing/reviving a dead box? Oh, I agree with you. And ideally, the interview process would be handled in the most sensible, logical fashion possible. Unfortunately, the real world has a nasty habit of being the result of ignorance and compromise rather than the product of sound methodology and practice. That still bothers me.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Perhaps so, but how do you hire a tech person to weed out the "puke learners" if you don't have one already?
I see this biting people often. I'm a networking contractor in my spare time so I often get called in by word of mouth to repair something for a company who has no IT guy because the IT guy was a moron and broke stuff and left them with no documentation.
I have seen one manager's test for whether or not the tech guy was nerdy enough for the job though. He asked who the proponent thought would win in a fight - Battlestar Galactica, or The Enterprise, and why.
Funnily enough, it worked pretty well.
Please Do Not Tell Sales People Anything Public Meaningful
Seriously, any data points about this would be appreciated.
Microsoft "truthiness" well Cisco has its own "truthiness" that you ahve to lean the CISCO way i did the CNNA ciscocourse which is much more in depth and the statements on OSI where sometimes biazre MIDI is not a layer 5 protocol - I used to be The UK's Third line interconnect/tester/support for X.400. I also know of someone at BT Labs who did the CCIE cold scored 98% and wrote John Chanbers a personal leter pointing out the mistakes in the CCIE (he had been on of the key inventors of ethernet :-)
You will never get to heaven with an Ak 47... But A Zu 30 is good for Low Flying Cherubim
Trouble a lot of stuff Like DMARCS etc is country specific the phone systems in Europe use different terminology - the wireing regs etc.
One of the oddest things was some comments on badges on hard harts and work ear - its an arcane bit of labor legislation to do with Union badges in the work place.
The Cisco approved courses at the academy for CCNA students do cover a lot more on the physical plant side but more from the POV of you are the commissioning guy and how to design a phisical network check the guys pulling cable are doing it right.
By SEM 4 Cisco expect you to be able to design a small 3-4 site 3-5k user LAN and WAN - this is done as a group project with 3-4 other students.
You will never get to heaven with an Ak 47... But A Zu 30 is good for Low Flying Cherubim
Obligatory Question: How does one get experience at Cisco routing or other cert-centric stuff to begin with? Should I go plop down $1000 for my own personal hardware for home use / study?
I've finally landed a job where I can get all sorts of experience AND can put food on the table, but jobs like mine are so few and far between. What's the expectation of up-and-coming techs, outside of landing a dream job like mine? This board makes it sound like no one in the world is interested in education anymore, and that it's all about money, and "what have you done for me lately" mentality (mostly on behalf of the people who get an education or certs only to beef up their resume).
I see job ads for "Java Ninjas" or "PHP Rock Stars" and the like. Consider common office expressions like: "I dodged a bullet on that one" or "I'm up to my ass in alligators" or "I've been putting out fires all day." People are said to "pirate" software. We "surf" the net.
We compensate for our lives being so pathetic and boring by using all kinds of action/adventure expressions.
I wish I could remember that dilbert quote. Something like: "This day memos will be writen, messages will be faxed, and files will be printed and saved for all eternity."
The motherboard is typically about 3/8" from the case. Maybe he was pointing to the motherboard all along?
I would have given him double or nothing on the location of the power cable. After all, why does he need to know where the motherboard is to say, "Is it plugged in? Is it turned on? What version of Windows do you use?" all day long?
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Why HR are involed To make sure idot employees (hireing managers) don't lay the company open to expensive law suits for one. Hr people in this area should have a grounding in the area so they know there a+ from a CCIE - onfortunetly there often not.
You will never get to heaven with an Ak 47... But A Zu 30 is good for Low Flying Cherubim
Because the average C++ error reporting is so bad that you feel sorry for its own inability to write something useful?
Trick I use to remember...
All People Seem To Need Data Processing =
A)pplication 7
P)resentation 6
S)ession 5
T)ransport 4
N)etwork 3
D)ata-Link 2
P)hysical 1
Now do I get a gold star?
My blog
As a CCIE who's been around a LOT of people studying for and getting the CCNA and CCNP certifications, here's my take: if you REALLY study for the CCNA and understand what you're learning before you take the exam, it serves as a superb foundation for the basics of network engineering. The material, particularly in the latest revisions, is really at the core of what you need to know. If you are looking to get a junior-level network engineering or NOC job and you really understand CCNA level material inside and out, it's going to help a lot. The problem is that it is indeed possible to pass the CCNA and even CCNP level exams without understanding the material. I know one guy who got his CCNP by studying everything backwards and forwards, and he's quite good at intermediate-to-advanced network implementation and troubleshooting--because he understands the material. I know another guy who has a whole boatload of certifications (everything except CCIE, it seems like), but he has trouble configuring (and understanding) static routes or dot1q trunks, because he took the minimal effort, braindump path. I think the value of networking certifications for honest, curious people is to test your knowledge of stuff you should know anyway, and to gauge your breadth and depth in your areas of expertise.
It's really simple to write English correctly. If you can't do it, you're probably a monkey someone taught to code C++, and should probably be exterminated. These are very basic rules. You don't see me whinging about any of the more esoteric English. But it's/its? That's obvious. Get it right, or admit you're a one-trick pony.
Anti-Globalism