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Businesses Spend 20% of IT Budgets on Security

Stony Stevenson writes "Security accounted for 20 percent of technology spending last year and it's expected to rise, according to a report released Tuesday. The Computing Technology Industry Association (CompTIA) surveyed 1,070 organisations and found that on average, they spent one-fifth of their technology budgets on security-related spending in 2006. That's up from the 15 percent of IT budgets spent on security in 2005, and the 12 percent spent in 2004."

141 comments

  1. that's how we roll around here by User+956 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Security accounted for 20 percent of technology spending last year and it's expected to rise, according to a report released Tuesday ... That's up from the 15 percent of IT budgets spent on security in 2005, and the 12 percent spent in 2004.

    That makes sense. I mean, nerf weapons count as a security expense, right?

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:that's how we roll around here by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 4, Funny

      Definitely do. It's the only way I can keep the damn bean counters from getting into mission control!

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    2. Re:that's how we roll around here by damonlab · · Score: 1

      I just pictured myself writing 'USB security device' on a purchase order.

    3. Re:that's how we roll around here by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      You could probably do more damage with firewire.

      (Ok, terrible joke. I know)

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    4. Re:that's how we roll around here by dintech · · Score: 1

      What about stairs? She's going to need some nerf stairs too.

    5. Re:that's how we roll around here by paladin217 · · Score: 1

      It's too early for people to get a Robot Chicken reference. The RC crowd usually wakes up in the afternoon.

    6. Re:that's how we roll around here by rinaazlin · · Score: 1

      It should be higher when microsoft is still in the market. and planning the next vulnerabilities version of microsoft

    7. Re:that's how we roll around here by PushpaVeni(TT076754) · · Score: 1

      Absolutely true....cause i cant control from the buggers cuming into my stuff

    8. Re:that's how we roll around here by rk076200 · · Score: 1

      absolutely...that's the reason why they spend so much for it.

  2. To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have waisted more time making workarounds these "security fixes" then ever just because they
    want to think they are safe but they never really consider the underlining problems with security.
    90% of the Market is using the SAME FREAKING OS! So they work on blocking legit Web Mail so
    Windows Viruses cant get in. Scanning all attachments to make sure there is no VBScript in Office
    For Windows Documents. Trying to block sites that could possible be considered to have Windows Spyware.

    Stop using freaking Windows all the time. Linux/Mac Workstations with VMWare to load Windows for those
    Windows only apps, Stop wasting time with making Windows Console application and focus on Web Based Apps
    Even if it is with .NET on a Windows Server, which you can run the Apps on any other browser, and OS.

    Of course gust going to a different OS isn't the only solution you need good firewalls and such. But...
    The core of the problem is Windows. Get Rid of Windows or reduce it to more bit parts then your companies
    security is so much better.

    Yes PHB MBA wont get it, they are afraid of doing anything differently then the rest. IT people will resist
    too because they don't know Linux or Macs as well as windows and are not willing to learn. But if you need
    to focus on security you need be different then the rest.

    You need to be flexible so If Macs or Linux becomes insecure (One to many features can cause that problem) then
    your custom apps need to be multi-platform or at least cross compilable to move from one system to an other.
    That is the correct direction for security. Not this Block you from getting you work done stuff.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by CaptainPatent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, a linux box in the hands of a clueless user can be just as dangerous if not more so than a windows box in the same hands.

      The real threat is ignorance here. That includes buying unnecessary security equipment, operating and running the system itself, and improperly using software firewall and routing.

      --
      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
    2. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

      Actually, a linux box in the hands of a clueless user can be just as dangerous if not more so than a windows box in the same hands.

      Depends on the distro...I've seen some live CDs that could cause trouble in the hands of a padawan...

      The real threat is ignorance here.

      I'm not so sure. I'm more likely likely to attribute illegal intrusions/Tphtphtph-ware to the weenies engaged in it. I'm not saying it's impossible to accidentally write fast-spreading worms, but I believe it's a wee bit rarer than the intentional sort.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    3. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by Techman83 · · Score: 1

      A clueless Admin hosting something maybe. But by default install of Desktop Linux those services that can be cracked if not correctly setup are not running. A defualt install of Desktop Linux is far more secure and safe then the default install of Windows.

      Lets compare apples to apples peoples!

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    4. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have waisted more time making workarounds these "security fixes" I'm trying to parse this and just can't quite manage. Do you mean the security fixes are something around your belt, they're making you too fat, what? Did you mean "wasted"?

      - A very confused grammar nazi
    5. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As the head of my company's security department, the problem does not lie with Windows.

      I am no fan of Microsoft- after much fighting with my boss over it, I'm the only person in a mid-sized web design company running Linux on his desktop, but the core problem has nothing to do with Windows- at least not solely.

      The problem comes down to several things:

      Incompetence of users: This is the only place the the end OS really makes a difference, but all in all, I'd rather see the morons using Windows than Linux, just because they are already familiar with it. It's pretty tough to convince the uppers to retrain an entire company. That time and effort could in fact be better spent working on virus protection, network monitoring, etc., which any responsible security team still needs to do.

      Pre-existing infrastructure: Companies start small, usually with the IT department consisting of a guy who sort of knows how to build computers. As the company grows, the infrastructure is forced to expand with it. Generally, this invlolves hacks and patching things together until it reaches a breaking point and a real network engineer is brought in. The problem there is that he still needs to keep everything up and running. You can't exactly take down a network, lead/customer management database, external web applications, etc, rebuild them all from scratch, then move everybody over. If the company can't maintain a baseline of functionality, than a security/network overhaul won't do anybody any good.

      Cluelessness of management: Spending money on security rarely affect's the company's bottom end directly. The only way to get them to take security seriously is to show them what it will cost them to not do so. This isn't as hard as it sounds though- if you can convince upper management to participate in creating company security policy, you can start to show them that A) security involves not just confidentiality, but also availability and integrity of assets- two aspects that are far more critical, particularly in upper management's eyes. B) Protection of those assets is the responsibility of management. Hiring a security guy will do no good unless he has support from the top. When something goes wrong, they may have a patsy, but they suddenly won't have that database of customer information.

      It's nice to hear that companies are spending 20% of IT budgets on security, though I don't believe it. Regardless, there is definitely a positive trend. The companies are starting to realize that security isn't something you can pick up for the price of a firewall and a pentest- it's a cyclical process involving constant auditing, defining and refining processes in all aspects of the company (which is why management support is so critical), and most importantly, fixing problems WITHOUT interrupting the normal flow of business.

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    6. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by MindPhlux · · Score: 1

      cross platform web based apps as a bottleneck for security I had never thought of. I am defenitely keeping it in mind for my next development project though!

    7. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      "The real threat is ignorance here."

      When you are talking about Linux, BSD, Solaris, etc, yes, it is.

      When talking about Windows, you have to clear all the way from browsers that execute arbitrary code from the web; files that execute automaticaly and the interface won't let you know beforehand; media that execute automaticaly, virus that spread trough text files, spreadsheets, images, video, etc; dialogs appearing all the time, trainning the user to agree to every one of them; And the list goes on...

    8. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by ancalikorn_pk073892 · · Score: 1

      Compare to other Operating System,Windows mostly use email filtering, antivirus and firewalls. Then the user have the personal costs of running, maintaining and administering these products (such as updating antivirus). We have very little in the way of wireless networks, but if we did, they would be another cost (more administration then anything). So, it probably isn't 20% of the total expenses, but it would have to be close.

    9. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by angus_rg · · Score: 1

      My daddy could kick your daddy's butt. Can't we all just get along? I'm still trying to figure out how a IT budget article turned into Windows is more/less/as secure as Linux argument.

    10. Re:To bad most of it is Stupid Security. by KAzri · · Score: 1

      True. All OS are not safe. They were created by humans with certain functionalities that maybe incompetent in some time in the future (Windows or Linux). There will be always bad people with gifted minds and black hearts who will try to find ways to exploit these incompetencies for their own benefits. And their numbers are increasing. Besides our ignorance, our misconduct and the use of bad programs (besides OS-software applications etc.) can also lead to insecurity.

  3. I call bull by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Funny

    Unless they count a UPS, RAID and tape drives as security, there is no way that security can eat up that much of the budget, except maybe if the surveyed all use Windoze...

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:I call bull by teh+moges · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm not sure about you, but we (Windows mostly) use email filtering, web content filtering, anti virus and firewalls. Then you have the personal costs of running, maintaining and administering these products (such as releasing false positive emails, updating anti virus). Then I suppose you can count the fact we have a server for WSUS as an ongoing cost. We have very little in the way of wireless networks, but if we did, they would be another cost (more administration then anything).

      When I think about it, it probably isn't 20% of the total expenses, but it would have to be close.

    2. Re:I call bull by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      except maybe if the surveyed all use Windoze...
      Sadly, that's usually the case.
    3. Re:I call bull by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

      Unless they count a UPS, RAID and tape drives as security, there is no way that security can eat up that much of the budget, except maybe if the surveyed all use Windoze...

      And why would that surprise you? Like it or not (I certainly don't), windoze is the most common OS in the world - be it desktops, workstations, laptops, file / app / print / web servers ... Which of course leads to it having the largest number of security faults per cost.
      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    4. Re:I call bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unless they count a UPS, RAID and tape drives as security, there is no way that security can eat up that much of the budget, except maybe if the surveyed all use Windoze...

      I've worked in management for several Fortune 500 companies and you would have to include all SOX activities and all your redundancy (including hardware, datacenters and staff) in the "security" to even come close to these numbers.

      A very rough ballpark is that 1/3 is people, 1/3 is depreciation and 1/3 is hardware/software.
      Or sliced differently: 1/3 is ERP, 1/3 is stuff the business is using to do business and 1/3 is infrastructure.

    5. Re:I call bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some are just throwing their money into a hole in the ground. After articles like that, one could believe that many would think 20% sounded cheap.

      Remember the old joke about putting cement into the server and dropping it in the Marianas Trench? Don't be suprised if someone tries to build a server farm there. Sure would hate to get that bill.

    6. Re:I call bull by spykemail · · Score: 2, Funny

      When did IIS become #1? And where is the nearest suicide booth?

    7. Re:I call bull by jonadab · · Score: 3, Informative

      > Unless they count a UPS, RAID and tape drives as security, there is no way that security can eat up
      > that much of the budget, except maybe if the surveyed all use Windoze...

      I'm sure a significant percentage of them use Windows, but what you're probably missing is that a lot of the security stuff that's typically sold to corporations (including, even, firewall solutions) is sold on a subscription basis, so that you have to pay every n (typically, twelve) months just to keep the same level of protection that you already had.

      Most other computer stuff is licensed for an indefinite period of time, so if a given system has a lifespan of five years, you only pay for the hardware, OS, office suite, and so forth every five years, but you pay for the security stuff five times as often. So it could cost 1/20th as much as the rest and still take up 1/5th of the budget.

      For instance, you might buy a workstation for $500, which comes with Windows XP included and a keyboard and mouse. To go along with that you might also buy a $250 LCD and a $650 license for MS Office, and you might use the thing for five years. During that time you might pay for Norton Internet Security every year, at about $70 a pop. Those aren't atypical figures these days, but if you multiply it out, security is one-fifth of the total budget for that workstation over five years.

      It does get a little weirder when line-of-business software is included (you know, stuff in the "let us know you're interested and we'll assign a sales team" price range), because that stuff usually has annually-renewed maintenance contracts on everything, including the hardware. OTOH, security solutions at that kind of level tend to be more expensive as well, e.g., the vendor might roll one of Symantec's enterprise-level security products right into your plan and consider it a required part of the solution.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    8. Re:I call bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most RSA products (SecurId, ClearTrust, Keon, Key Manager...) have annual licence fees that start in the six figure range and easily get into seven digits for Fortune 500 installs on a per user basis. And most Fortune 500 companies have at least one of those products, and it's nearly the last in their portfolio of software and hardware that's budgetted for security.

    9. Re:I call bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      large portion comes with outside security consultants who pitch massive sec pol changes in an audit. Usually involves buying proprietory hardware/software solutions along with expensive support contracts in order to maintain the systems without keeping said consultant on.

      Translation:

      The inhouse IT dept sucks, but has built an infrastructure in which it is difficult to rebuild things without making up some crud about needing to perform a security audit. Then they $$$ pay for magical products in the hopes that their problems will go away.

    10. Re:I call bull by guruevi · · Score: 1, Informative

      You must be having an IT person for every 20-50 users or so to support all that crap.

      E-mail filtering: Just some spamfiltering and clamav so we don't propagate virusses in case somebody decides to forward it
      Web content filtering: A big loss in $$$ since every single one of your employees WILL find a way around it which reduces security to even less since they'll be using less controllable techniques while having to look for it on Warez sites (which do have a lot of issues with random virusses etc.)
      Anti-virus: Sits in my e-mail, otherwise not necessary. Just in case I DO need it, I have ClamAV on stand-by to scan all user directories on my XRAID
      Firewalls: A single firewall cluster in front of my boxes (which all have a PUBLIC IP) will do, thank you, if you decide to have it on each box, see my comment on Web content filtering since they can't run any ol' program (even if it's just a game)
      Administering the products: Send false positives through with a TAG or even MIME-attached, strip the attachment if it contains a virus, SpamAssassin, ClamAV, Amavisd and Postfix CORRECTLY set up will do that for you. So far no false positives though.

      Server for WSUS costs you that much money? Distributing packages doesn't cost me anything and I think an update service like that should come for free as courtesy for buying so much client licenses. I have Mac OS X Software Update (free with Server) and a local repository of relevant Fedora Core and Debian updates on the same server which I also use for developing and other stuff, it also does my tape library and backups at night. Ok, the hardware and license had to be bought and if you have a really large organization (+10,000) you might need a separate server to do that but I see many running really large (100's of GB) public repositories (look at all the Univ entries for any distro) and they run on one or two servers for constant >100MBit loads.

      Wireless networking? Why worry. Rather worry about ANY laptop whether wireless or wired. Make sure the wireless clients don't get on your local network, use WPA with RADIUS (did I mention that's usually free and supported on every cheap or expensive wlan router) and treat them like you would any other VPN connection. What, you don't trust the computers on the VPN either do you? Why would you? Just because they're your laptops doesn't mean the employee's kids don't play with it once he gets home!

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    11. Re:I call bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who said IIS was #1?

    12. Re:I call bull by arivanov · · Score: 2, Informative

      It can.

      AV , Client firewall, Integrity checkers and patch deployment, VPN, Firewall, Compliance, etc in a Windows shop ramp up to somewhere around there. Actually, quite often they are even more.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    13. Re:I call bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I think about it, it probably isn't 20% of the total expenses, but it would have to be close. Let's not forget the cost of rebuilding compromised desktop machines and servers. I know that shouldn't happen if you keep your fortifications up-to-date but with vulnerabilities being available to malware makers before they are even reported to OS and Software manufacturers some of your machines will get compromised. Rebuilding servers in particular is a major pain.
    14. Re:I call bull by spykemail · · Score: 1

      Look at the parent's list.

    15. Re:I call bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Server for WSUS costs you that much money?

      It costs more than it should. You need a windows server edition ($800). The preferred method of install also involves SQL server - I think that's like another $800. You can use the free desktop engine as well though.

    16. Re:I call bull by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      In terms of the public internet, it isn't. In terms of total http server deployments including intranets, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    17. Re:I call bull by rk076200 · · Score: 1

      if u think windows is good enough,then why do people still complain about it? it doesn't make sense right. huh....

  4. pebkac security patch by wizardforce · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wonder how much of that spending went to training their employees that "password", "letmein" and lastly "123" are *NOT* the best passwords.

    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    1. Re:pebkac security patch by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

      Some people, honestly, seem to be untrain-able in that regard. I once had a coworker who not only used 'manager' as his password, but told damn near everyone in the company that was his password.

      You guessed it, even the people he managed new it...

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    2. Re:pebkac security patch by UncleTogie · · Score: 5, Funny

      I wonder how much of that spending went to training their employees that "password", "letmein" and lastly "123" are *NOT* the best passwords.

      Just happened today: The uber-friendly shopkeeper next door asked me to help him void a transaction. When the password prompt came up, he looked at me and simply said, "1-2-3-4-5."

      I couldn't resist. I looked back at him and said, "That's funny. I've got the same combination on my luggage..."

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    3. Re:pebkac security patch by jonadab · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > I wonder how much of that spending went to training their employees

      On average, not nearly enough. Employee training practically always gets shortchanged, and I'm not just talking about computer security, or even just about computer technology generally. It's true across the board in most industries.

      Worse, in a lot of industries, the money that _is_ budgetted for employee training gets mostly wasted on worthless nonsense, not spent on the training the employees could actually *use*.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    4. Re:pebkac security patch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I couldn't resist. I looked back at him and said, "That's funny. I've got the same combination on my luggage..." It's not so funny when you use the same quote at LEAST twice a day, in regards to customer and employee-chosen passwords. During a recent audit, I checked a database of hashes against my rainbow tables, and I shit you not, one in 5 passwords was either 12345 or password.

    5. Re:pebkac security patch by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

      It's not so funny when you use the same quote at LEAST twice a day...

      Oh, believe me, I know. I wasn't using the "amusing" connotation of the word "funny". What tore me up was he blurted out his password QUITE loudly... in front of customers. Thank God I trained myself to keep a straight face when I was younger...

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
  5. And then what part goes to anti-spam? by damn_registrars · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Since we now have a way to track security expenditures, we should have some way to track money spent on anti-spam measures. Considering how well the anti-spam hardware and software sells, I'll venture its a nontrivial expense, as well.

    Even if you're just running some spiffy implementation of spam assasin, it still gets your time at some frequency to update the rules, amongst other things.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:And then what part goes to anti-spam? by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 1

      FTA:

      "The survey results also revealed that for each dollar spent on security, about 42 cents goes toward technology product purchases. In general, 17 cents goes toward security-related processes; 15 cents covers training; 12 cents for assessments; and 9 cents pays for certification. The balance goes to other items."

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    2. Re:And then what part goes to anti-spam? by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

      From that list, anti-spam could be under almost any of them. I'd expect by now we've all seen the hardware spam filters ("technology product purchases"), which of course need updating from time to time ("training"). And pretty much any anti-spam installation needs to be tested to adjust for things like false positives ("assessments"). And then of course there are people who are so obnoxiously proud of their anti-spam installations ("certification").

      But then of course are the realists to know that filtering doesn't accomplish squat for the real problem (we'd place it under "other items") but pursue anti-spam just to appease their users.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  6. "Security" analysts by Da_Biz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At some of my consulting client sites, I've been underwhelmed by the quality of their "security analyst" staff. I've found that staff seemed to be more interested in putting their name on boilerplate "best practices" to pass off to others, rather than taking a hands-on, collaborative approach in working with sysadmins to really verify that their systems are secure.

    Don't even get me started on social engineering and how circumventable many secured entry systems are. It's a sad thought that someone posing as a lowly janitor could have free rein in most data centers.

    P.S. Security policy writers: why not start by giving your employees with access to high-security areas a way to disable their keycards 24 hours a day by phone (including some sort of challenge/response question for them to answer)? Simple, inexpensive and effective compared to a lost or stolen keycard falling into the wrong hands.

    1. Re:"Security" analysts by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      giving your employees with access to high-security areas a way to disable their keycards 24 hours a day by phone

      At my workplace the security people combined the ID card with the RFID access card so now if you lose the RFID card the person who finds it can go directly to our site and walk in.

    2. Re:"Security" analysts by ForestGrump · · Score: 1

      That's why I ran my RFID card through a paper shredder and just call someone to open the door for me whenever I need to get in. If nobody is in the lab, I get security to let me in then. So much more secure!

      --
      Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
    3. Re:"Security" analysts by OriginalArlen · · Score: 1

      Security policy writers: why not start by giving your employees with access to high-security areas a way to disable their keycards 24 hours a day by phone (including some sort of challenge/response question for them to answer)? Simple, inexpensive and effective compared to a lost or stolen keycard falling into the wrong hands. Hi there! I write security policies. Now I can't answer for the situation where you work, but there are two responses to this...
      • One: the art of good security is to spend just enough to make it not worth the attacker's time. A lost or stolen keycard is highly unlikely to be a targeted attack, and a random thief / person who picks a card up in the street (a) doesn't know which company and which address it applies to, and (b) probably doesn't care, as there's no benefit to them from getting into an empty office building. What are they gonna do, steal the desks?
      • Two: if you KNOW of a simple inexepensive and effective way to implement 24h keycard lockout without paying someone to sit in front of the access control system console 24/7/365, I'm all ears.
      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
  7. It is the future daniel-san by deftones_325 · · Score: 0

    Get with it. Security is the way of the future. Lan-Administration is on its way down. Security is on its way up. If I had a dollar for every time a rouge wi-fi access point is set up that compromizes the whole network... and people using default passwords... anyway.. its no wonder companies need to hire 2 security guys to go around to tell everyone not to make thier password thier kids/pets name/birthday..

    --
    "A gentleman never strikes a lady with his hat on." - Fred Allen
    1. Re:It is the future daniel-san by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "rouge wi-fi access point"

      Those red ones should be easy to spot.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  8. lol by spykemail · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's the same thing people always do when they screw something up and don't know how to fix it - throw money at it. I love it when IT companies get paid to implement "security" features (speed bumps) then "service" (disable) them. It would be like funding an invasion of a country then paying for the reconstruction of all the shit you just blew up~

    1. Re:lol by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      It would be like funding an invasion of a country then paying for the reconstruction of all the shit you just blew up~

      You forgot the "oh wait ..."

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  9. necessary precautions though? by evann · · Score: 1

    Do these firms spend these security dollars properly or do they just do as recommended by whichever software/analyst group wants to sell them more software/and or information on holes? How much of the $$$ designated forward security is worth it? Anyone have insight into that aspect?

    1. Re:necessary precautions though? by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do these firms spend these security dollars properly or do they just do as recommended by whichever software/analyst group wants to sell them more software/and or information on holes? How much of the $$$ designated forward security is worth it?

      Insightful question.

      Managers and the clueless (obviously not mutually exclusive sets!) are always looking for a "security product", the silver bullet.

      The reality is that security is a process, not a product. You have to incorporate it into your policies, plans and products from the ground up.

      Security "products" (firewalls, IDS, NMS, etc.) are the icing on the cake, but are pretty much meaningless on their own. This is clearly not what most managers want to hear, they want to spend some money and be done. That's why there is so much money to be made in security snake oil, because the reality of information security is that it is expensive, not in terms of buying stuff, but in terms of an ongoing commitment to incorporating the principles into everything you do.

      Many times this translates into the fact that the easiest path to getting something done is not the best path. That is a difficult reality for management to relate to.

      --
      A house divided against itself cannot stand.
  10. 20%, sure ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    and how much of that goes to the likes of Symantec?

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  11. Thanks, Bill! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Thanks, Microsoft, for innovating the virus industry into existence.

    1. Re:Thanks, Bill! by spykemail · · Score: 1

      Keeping your faulty code as far from the eyes of competent software engineers as possible only leaves black hats to play with it? Who knew!

    2. Re:Thanks, Bill! by Torvaun · · Score: 1
      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    3. Re:Thanks, Bill! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Obviously it does but it's pretty rare. The current danger is bored script kiddies and spammers that want to own as many boxes as possible in a short time. MS Windows is the soft target for these people, paticularly the hobby version and not the server version. While dictionary attacks work on other systems if the box has unfirewalled ssh with bad choices of usernames and passwords (and passwords instead of keys) it is slow even then and hopefully boring. Even when they get in they still need to ecscalate priveleges to root before they can even use it as a portscanner let alone anything else. In the time they take to get a poorly secured *nix box they could have taken over dozens of badly set up MS Windows boxes.

    4. Re:Thanks, Bill! by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      MS Windows is the soft target for these people, paticularly the hobby version and not the server version. This storm virus thingie deliberately avoids infecting MS Windows server edition. I don't think that counts. *Anything* Microsoft is a soft target, as is any networked computer with a clueless admin.
    5. Re:Thanks, Bill! by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      In the time they take to get a poorly secured *nix box they could have taken over dozens of badly set up MS Windows boxes.

      That's to be expected. Given the market share disparity, even if every other factor was equivalent [0], you would still expect to see at least ca. 40:1 "pwnership ratio".

      [0] And they're not. Without even bringing technical aspects into the discussion, Windows is already at a serious disadvantage to Linux in terms of "security" because if its user demographic.

    6. Re:Thanks, Bill! by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 1

      Script kiddies and spammers are easy to deal with, they are the least of your problems. Your biggest problems are the pros, the insiders, your users, God, and Murphy.

      --
      A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    7. Re:Thanks, Bill! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, two of those were in the past four years. One of those couldn't get beyond it's own subnet. The other didn't attack the operating system, but was phpBB, and even then there was a patch for the vulnerability a month before the virus.

      Apart from the one from 2001, all your other examples are from the 1980s. Good to see you've given solid, unassailable examples.

      (Captcha is 'outdated'. How apropos)

    8. Re:Thanks, Bill! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      That's to be expected. Given the market share disparity

      A common misconception but easily corrected by paying attention. The Apache vs Microsoft ISS example where market share is skewed in the opposite direction shows the market share thing is either a feeble excuse or complete and utter marketing bullshit. Furthurmore you HAVE to bring technical aspects into the discussion for it to be anything other than worthless fortunetelling.

    9. Re:Thanks, Bill! by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A common misconception but easily corrected by paying attention.

      Anyone who doesn't think market share is a significant contributor to a product's "security record", is a fool blinded by zealotry. There are so many critical aspects of "security" that are related to market share, it's simply an inescapable factor.

      The Apache vs Microsoft ISS example where market share is skewed in the opposite direction shows the market share thing is either a feeble excuse or complete and utter marketing bullshit.

      Those "paying attention" will notice that a) IIS has had better "security" for some time now and b) IIS and Apache have similar levels of marketshare. Even before then, cherrypicking an atypical example from a tiny subset of the market, does not make for a compelling argument (neither for nor against) in the general case. The plural of anecdote is not data.

      Furthurmore you HAVE to bring technical aspects into the discussion for it to be anything other than worthless fortunetelling.

      From a technical perspective, all the major platforms have been basically equivalent for over half a decade now (and before that, Windows NT was - "technically speaking" - streets ahead of unix variants, ironically refuting the whole "bad design" argument in one fell swoop). Further, the single biggest influence on security - users - is "non-technical".

      Finally, your "marketshare is irrelevant" argument completely misses the point I was making - that even if all else was equal (ie: in any given situation, a Linux machine and a Windows machine had exactly the same probability of being compromised) you still expect to have "dozens" more Windows machines compromised than Linux machines, because they outnumber them ca. 40 to 1. Here, I'll even make a car analogy to emphasise the point; There are 100 identical cars in a garage. Ninety of them are owned by Caucasians, six by Asians, three by Negros and one by an Indian. Which ethnicity do you expect have the largest number of cars stolen from them ? Do you believe this is due to racism or statistics ?

      Or, to put it another way, if you believe Windows - today - should have anything close to as "good" a "security record" as Linux, you fail at basic logic, reasoning and maths.

    10. Re:Thanks, Bill! by jackpot777 · · Score: 1

      I want to know why someone from India isn't already an Asian.

      Or is 'Indian' to be taken in the same context as 'Negro'?

      --
      Shiny. Let's be bad guys...
    11. Re:Thanks, Bill! by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Hey, I accept that Windows has the lion's share of viruses. But the AC I was responding to claimed that viruses were all Bill's fault, and I wanted to disillusion him. Honestly, the viruses from pre-Windows days were the preferred examples for discrediting his claims.

      Personally, I feel that the majority of viruses run on Windows for many reasons, including that it's a bigger target, a softer target, and, by and large, a dumber target. The average Linux user is much more tech-savvy than the average Windows user. If all of those tech-savvy people switched to Windows, they would still not be the people getting viruses. I run Linux on my laptop, and XP on my desktop (for games). I don't get viruses on either of them.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    12. Re:Thanks, Bill! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      and before that, Windows NT was - "technically speaking" - streets ahead of unix variants

      And I'm the one being accused of being a fool blinded by zealotry? Some of us have used it a lot and read hundreds of the MS white papers to get around problems you know, we still use it in situations where it makes sense. It was good enough for what it did because it was a cheap OS running on cheap hardware however only MS marketing people furthur enhanced by drugs would be making that sort of claim in anything other than ignorance.

      Remember that all else is not equal. A simplistic comparison of numbers is hardly going to get you anywhere because the mechanisim is not randomly attacking anything and getting the same sort of success rate for everything. It would be nice is all else was equal and the Microsoft products are steadily improving but they are still the soft target that appears to be chosen by preference - even most of the dictionary attacks via ssh that I see are attempting to log on as "Administrator". Attacks are squarely aimed at MS machines and you can tell because the differences between systems are such that different methods would have to be used. Other systems have other vunerablities and can still be insecure, but malware is a MS Windows problem.

      Back to the ISS and apache thing: "cherrypicking an atypical example from a tiny subset of the market" was the quote above. You do realise that you are reading this on the internet? There are a lot of web servers out there so we are talking about an enormous sample size. When ISS was new it was attacked a lot despite having almost zero market share - it was attacked due to being a soft target in comparison to apache. That should illustrate what I mean about market share being of little relevance in the case of malware and a very simplisitic way of looking at things. Malware would have to be implemented in very different ways to run on other systems. As for the irrelevant and weird race example - please show a little more maturity - trying to make somebody angry to win an argument is really not worth it if that is what you were trying to do and it didn't work anyway.

      The last little insult implying that a simplistic view is is the only approach of the intelligent person and thay I have failed because I consider a more complex model is also rather sad. Some things go beyond "Jim has more apples than Tony has oranges" - you are not going to solve security problems by doing such simplistic and usually irrelevant apple and orange comparisons. Similarly stating that MS Windows has a lot of malware because a lot of people like it is really ignoring the reasons why it is so easy for script kiddies and spammers to use the stuff and even write their own with very little knowlege of how the OS works.

    13. Re:Thanks, Bill! by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      I want to know why someone from India isn't already an Asian.

      Because I was using it in the context of ethnicity, not what continent they were born on.

      Or is 'Indian' to be taken in the same context as 'Negro'?

      Uh, not sure what context you're inferring...

    14. Re:Thanks, Bill! by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      And I'm the one being accused of being a fool blinded by zealotry?

      Yes. Because apparently you think, despite all contemporary OSes being basically equivalent in terms of capabilities and features - marketshare has no influence on a product's "security".

      Some of us have used it a lot and read hundreds of the MS white papers to get around problems you know, we still use it in situations where it makes sense. It was good enough for what it did because it was a cheap OS running on cheap hardware however only MS marketing people furthur enhanced by drugs would be making that sort of claim in anything other than ignorance.

      Windows NT, since day 1, has had a vastly more capable security infrastructure than standard UNIX. It was only with the advent of things like SELinux, that this changed.

      Remember that all else is not equal.

      I am well aware of this. Hence the reason I *specifically stated* that assumption to get across the point that even in an unrealistic scenario offering an advantage (in the context of actual reality) to Windows, you would still expect it to have a vastly higher rate of compromise simply because of the sheer numerical difference in machines. This was in reponse to your implication that such a result would be due to Windows being a "soft target".

      A simplistic comparison of numbers is hardly going to get you anywhere because the mechanisim is not randomly attacking anything and getting the same sort of success rate for everything. It would be nice is all else was equal and the Microsoft products are steadily improving but they are still the soft target that appears to be chosen by preference - even most of the dictionary attacks via ssh that I see are attempting to log on as "Administrator". Attacks are squarely aimed at MS machines and you can tell because the differences between systems are such that different methods would have to be used. Other systems have other vunerablities and can still be insecure, but malware is a MS Windows problem.

      Your flawed assumption is that Windows is chosen purely - or even primarily - because it is a "soft target" from a technical perspective, and not because of any of the numerous factors related directly to marketshare. *You* are the one exercising a "simplistic analysis" (based on outdated rhetoric, judging by the stereotypical Apache vs IIS example).

      Back to the ISS and apache thing: "cherrypicking an atypical example from a tiny subset of the market" was the quote above. You do realise that you are reading this on the internet? There are a lot of web servers out there so we are talking about an enormous sample size.

      If you think webservers make up a meaningful proportion of internet-connected computers, you're delusional. Further, by their nature (managed servers usually maintained by knowledgable individuals, monitored for abnormal behaviour, regularly updated - although these apply much more to Apache than IIS, hence raising another inherent disadvantage to it, even if the comparison was valid) they represent an atypical example of the average internet-connected machine.

      When ISS was new it was attacked a lot despite having almost zero market share - it was attacked due to being a soft target in comparison to apache. That should illustrate what I mean about market share being of little relevance in the case of malware and a very simplisitic way of looking at things.

      All it illustrates is your bias and flawed analytical skills. 4-5+ years ago IIS (<6) was available on a platform that covered ~90% of the market, was frequently installed without need by amateurs with no idea how to configure or maintain it, on unmanaged (or poorly managed) machines that saw little in the way even of basic maintenance, let alone proactive security-conscious configuration. Contrast this to Apache, which was running on ca. 2003 or earlier Linux distributions (already the bar is raised significantly higher) or some other unix variant (bar is rai

    15. Re:Thanks, Bill! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      despite all contemporary OSes being basically equivalent in terms of capabilities and features

      I must admit I have not heard such a statement from anybody that does a great deal of work with computers and do not expect to. On anything other than an extremely superficial level there are many differences.

      Windows NT, since day 1, has had a vastly more capable security infrastructure than standard UNIX

      I hate to use the "you must be new here" line but you have been greatly misled by somebody about this. For a variety of reasons the security model for Windows NT was originally lax and it did not matter a great deal initially. Windows NT has improved a great deal with respect to security since it's first release and more improvements will be added.

      Another little insult added on the end. At least you are not going for the bullying questioning of people's mathematical ability etc as before. That would work against people with little confidence who have some degree of respect for you I suspect - do you try it a lot? Please argue the thing on it's merits instead of insults.

    16. Re:Thanks, Bill! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Let me try to explain why I consider this old argument to be wrong in a different way. If you wind back twelve years you will find examples of people saying that linux will be attacked by large numbers of viruses as soon as there are large numbers of linux hosts out there. The large numbers are there now but it did not happen due to what is being written off above as "technical reasons". Unfortunately with most subjects as soon as anyone considers how things happen it gets "technical" and comparison of the numbers of dissimilar things is just not good enough.

    17. Re:Thanks, Bill! by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      I must admit I have not heard such a statement from anybody that does a great deal of work with computers and do not expect to. On anything other than an extremely superficial level there are many differences.

      For example ? What major, relevant architectural features are not found in all of the major OSes (and haven't been for the better part of a decade) ?

      I hate to use the "you must be new here" line but you have been greatly misled by somebody about this. For a variety of reasons the security model for Windows NT was originally lax and it did not matter a great deal initially. Windows NT has improved a great deal with respect to security since it's first release and more improvements will be added.

      The security model of NT has remained basically unchanged since 1993. There are certainly a few minor implementation and configuration details that have been improved (eg: running services as unprivileged users, UAC) but in the last ~15 years the same changes have happened on unix platforms to basically the same degree.

      And, of course, let's not forget the how "lax" the security model of traditional unix is.

      Another little insult added on the end.

      It's not an insult - that would imply I made it in an attempt to offend - it's an observation of someone's mental state given the circumstances. I fail to see why I should refrain from calling someone acting foolishly, a fool.

      At least you are not going for the bullying questioning of people's mathematical ability etc as before.

      Again, simply an observation, not "bullying". Unless you can come up with some reason why that observation was incorrect, and even if all other variables were equal, one wouldn't expect to see compromises of Windows machines outnumbering Linux machines approximatley 40:1 ?

      That would work against people with little confidence who have some degree of respect for you I suspect - do you try it a lot? Please argue the thing on it's merits instead of insults.

      I try to "argue the thing on its merits", but as is typical with people like you, my arguments are ignored or dismissed as irrelevant (just as you have in this thread), in favour of a) biased, unsupported and poorly reasoned assertions and b) irrelevant, cherry-picked, frequently outdated anecdotes.

      If you're so keen to "argue the merits", try an come up with some good reasons as to why marketshare should not be considered a significant factor. I've already used several examples as to how it is.

    18. Re:Thanks, Bill! by dbIII · · Score: 1
      No little bullying insults? It's all there above and a bit is quoted here:

      you fail at basic logic, reasoning and maths.

      Try to talk about the subject matter instead of using methods to bully those with less confidence in their abilities or mistaken repect - it is uncivilised. While it is unlikely to work here with anybody that is familiar with more than one operating system and can see the holes I'll bet you use it in other forums or on other topics. The 1993 bit could throw the young off track a bit and make them question what they know - was that another little trick? There's a whole lot in earlier posts about your view of myself and very little about the subject matter. That tells me a lot about the writer but really nothing else of consequence. You have won this little game you are playing and I have already stated that I do not believe this old simplistic argumant that has shown no sign of occuring over more than a decade - I came here for something other than this little game that is a bit above kindergarden level.

    19. Re:Thanks, Bill! by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      No little bullying insults? It's all there above and a bit is quoted here:

      No. Although when you choose to deceptively quote out of context, you can certainly make it look that way.

      Try to talk about the subject matter instead of using methods to bully those with less confidence in their abilities or mistaken repect - it is uncivilised.

      I am trying to talk about the subject matter. You, on the other hand, repeatedly ignore attempts to do so, preferring to concentrate on a deconstruction of how I choose to make my points. That is to say, essentially nothing more than ad hominem "arguments".

      The 1993 bit could throw the young off track a bit and make them question what they know - was that another little trick?

      Indeed. Damn those facts, they trickses us all the time.

      There's a whole lot in earlier posts about your view of myself and very little about the subject matter.

      In fact, my comments about attitude are explicitly conditional on whether or not certain mindsets are held. I'm not calling people with the opinions you have expressed fools for the hell of it, as an insult, I'm calling them fools for holding a biased opinion unsupported by fact or reasoned argument.

      You have won this little game you are playing and I have already stated that I do not believe this old simplistic argumant that has shown no sign of occuring over more than a decade - I came here for something other than this little game that is a bit above kindergarden level.

      Apparently you're a hypocrite as well. You attack me for not "talking about the subject matter" yet continually evade any attempts to engage upon it. Continually repeating different variations of "I think you're wrong" is not "talking about the subject matter", it's sticking your fingers in your ears and seeing who can yell louder.

    20. Re:Thanks, Bill! by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      No little bullying insults? It's all there above and a bit is quoted here:

      No. Although when you choose to deceptively quote out of context, you can certainly make it look that way.

      Try to talk about the subject matter instead of using methods to bully those with less confidence in their abilities or mistaken repect - it is uncivilised.

      I am trying to talk about the subject matter. You, on the other hand, repeatedly ignore attempts to do so, preferring to concentrate on a deconstruction of how I choose to make my points.

      The 1993 bit could throw the young off track a bit and make them question what they know - was that another little trick?

      That depends on whether or not you consider a piece of factual information a "trick" or not.

      There's a whole lot in earlier posts about your view of myself and very little about the subject matter.

      In fact, my comments about attitude are explicitly conditional on whether or not certain mindsets are held. I'm not calling people with the opinions you have expressed fools for the hell of it, as an insult, I'm calling them fools for holding a biased opinion unsupported by fact or reasoned argument.

      You have won this little game you are playing and I have already stated that I do not believe this old simplistic argumant that has shown no sign of occuring over more than a decade - I came here for something other than this little game that is a bit above kindergarden level.

      Apparently you're a hypocrite as well. You attack me for not "talking about the subject matter" yet continually evade any attempts to engage upon it. Please note that simply repeating different variations of "you're wrong" is not "talking about the subject matter".

  12. Pfft! by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1

    How much of any amount that anyone spends on anything is "worth it"?

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  13. increase in security budgets by TT076659 · · Score: 1

    From my point of view, the increase in security budgets is due to the increase in number of ways a system can be attacked. There's no doubt that security is very important for businesses. It's better to spend more on security rather than being attacked and hacked or anything like that, which can lead to more losses.

    1. Re:increase in security budgets by SCHecklerX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's more because infrastructure 'security' has been commoditized. You now by a product to do this, another to do that, etc. What management doesn't get is that security is a process, and good security does not equal buying a bunch of commodity products. We can do without them, but most companies would rather pay consultants and vendors than listen to their own security analyst staff who have likely already given the managment 10 different ways to mitigate vulnerability to specific threats, but it only became 'real' when there was something to buy to deal with it.

  14. Hahaha by foo+fighter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    hahahahahaha!

    Twenty percent...

    Oh, that's rich. Oh my. Oh. Hoo!

    Flying Spaghetti Monster, I love surveys and statistics. I've worked in internal security for the past couple years at a big accounting firm and as a security consultant for many years before this.

    Everyone knows they should be doing more to stay secure, but that fact is security doesn't do anything obviously positive for the bottom line. It's like flossing: most people floss when they have some chicken stuck between their molars but they don't do it every night. (Little tip for everyone trying to get money for security: give up on ROI; sell it like you're selling an insurance policy.)

    When CIOs or CISOs get these surveys they fluff the numbers because they know they are supposed to be secure even if they have a hard time justifying security spending to the Board. "Oh yeah, we spent $X on Security. That's about 15-25% of our IT budget." What they don't say is that number includes the payroll (including salary, benefits, and payroll taxes) of all IT staff that have anything to do with security, audit, or regulatory compliance.

    Contrast that with asking them what they spent on email they'd probably tell you about their Exchange license fees and maybe some server hardware. They'll leave out staffing costs, retention software and SAN, etc.

    My guess is that the average IT budget is spending maybe -- MAYBE -- 10% on security, audit, and compliance related expenses.

    I will admit here that I didn't RTFA. If the survey population was mostly US-based publicly traded companies that fall under SOX regulations the 20% number is a tiny bit more believable because CFOs and CEOs don't want to go to jail based on a fuckup by a minimum wage (in their frame of reference) IT staffer.

    --
    obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
    1. Re:Hahaha by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Security is a subset of IT, and IT as a whole is not a profit-center ... it's an operating expense. Now, what is it that most execs try to do with operating expenses?

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:Hahaha by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And you so absofuckinglutely missed the point it's almost hard to bother replying. You seem confused about the term "profit center" which has a very specific meaning in most businesses. I didn't say that advanced technology was useless or doesn't help industry: I've been an industrial software developer for damn near thirty of those years, so there's no reason to get testy. I suspect you're just being deliberately obtuse so's you can use the word "absofuckinglutely". Good for you. If you'd actually grasped what I was trying to say, you'd have understood that I was referring to the perspective of the suits running a company, not the utility of information technology in general.

      Look, you run a company. How do you see the world? You see it in terms of money coming in ... and money going out. Those guys on the production floor making product? Money coming in. That programmer cranking out code for the latest release of the company's premier software product? Money coming in. That's what the corporate executive sees as a "profit making center", and that's how I defined it.

      Now, let's take a look at some other internal functions in any company:

      Sales & Marketing? Not a profit center, but without it there'll be no profits, plus which suits understand those departments. They generally haven't a clue how design and production work.

      Accounting? Not a profit center ... but even a suit sees that as money well spent so he can see how much money he has accumulated. Besides, there are numerous laws which require compliance.

      Customer support? Not a profit center. "Too bad our drain-bamaged customers can't handle all their own problems, we'd save a bundle. No, we're not going to upgrade the call center, matter of fact we're shipping it to India next month. Start training Habib here ... he's replacing you."

      Internal IT department? Not a profit center. "Too bad all those stupid people that work for us can't handle their own problems. We'd save a bundle. Also, you gotta watch those IT guys, always wanting to spend our money on the latest fancy computer toys."

      So far as external threats are concerned ... who cares? "What? You want me to authorize 250 grand for security upgrades to fend off potential threats? Forget it, I'd have to reduce our bonuses this year and that sure ain't gonna happen ... here's fifty K and you're lucky to get that. Besides, I don't understand all this "black hat" "white hat" shit. What's a firewall, anyway? I think my car has one. My dog had worms once."

      That's what I'm talking about. I'm sorry if you're an IT guy and took offense, but the facts are clear: IT and its very important offshoot, network security are simply not in the average PHBs top ten list of important areas to spend money. There are some corporations that get it, and make themselves into hard targets, but not enough. Not nearly enough. Part of the problem is that good security is more a matter of good people that it is good equipment.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    3. Re:Hahaha by SL+Baur · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well put.

      Part of the problem is that good security is more a matter of good people that it is good equipment. And the other parts you laid out pretty nicely.
    4. Re:Hahaha by zairi5811 · · Score: 1

      just try to make full use of related open source software for security.. try to find the very good one and use it without any budget.. business can safe 20% by using open source..

  15. Security is tricky... by Dirtside · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The trickiest thing about security is that there's no reliable way to tell for sure whether it's worked or not. Any security system can be defeated by a properly designed attack, although for a given system this may never happen if there's no one who has both the resources and desire to defeat it.

    But the trick is, a sufficiently well-planned attack can defeat security without anyone knowing it happened. So you can't really rely on a count like the number of detected intrusions (whether they were thwarted or not). The result of this fact is that there's a huge amount of crosstalk about "best practices" and what's Good Security and what's not. You could have a system that tracks N intrusions per year, and thwarts them all, but if there were 2N intrusions that were not detected (let alone thwarted)... you go around claiming you've got great security, but do you really?

    This doesn't mean we shouldn't try to have security, obviously, but it does mean that security is a giant, tricky grey area.

    --
    "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    1. Re:Security is tricky... by ealar+dlanvuli · · Score: 1

      Uh security is easy. Don't run programs from writable media. If you do, restore the media once a day (and also keep up with patches / other best practices). Anything else is snake oil.

      Always assume someone has a zero day rootkit for every server you run. You live in fantasy land if you think there aren't hackers that could pwn your system instantly in this world.

      Done.

      Sean

      --
      I live in a giant bucket.
    2. Re:Security is tricky... by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 1

      That solves the problem of people rooting your box. Now address these ones:

      Stupid users
      Information Disclosure
      Fires, floods and nuclear apocalyps
      keeping the source tree for your new video game from going public
      That hard copy of the company directory that just got thrown in the dumpster out back
      the list goes on and on...

      There's a lot more to security than keeping the script kiddies off your web server.

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    3. Re:Security is tricky... by haihainicknameused · · Score: 1

      just ignore security. and ignore stupid users. :) make it all go away pretty please ? nah well there is no way to keep everything 100% up all the time and if you are at the five nines in uptime it should be fine. people tend to panic and go OMG THE INTERNET IS GONE FOR 5 MINUTES!!!.. cry more. if you have documents that are secret and aren't supposed to leak out, put it on a separate network. for other stuff there is backup, redundant servers. your system is hackable, it's a fact, will anyone do it ? that's the question and if they do. find out who/how report them, reload backup & fix security. the biggest reason hackers hack systems these days seems to be able to send out spam mail for xx minutes and then they leave.

    4. Re:Security is tricky... by Time+Ed · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm sorry, but this is wrong. And a trap a lot of IT managers fall in to. Don't negate pragmatism with cynicism. Thinking that no barriers will hinder an attack then sitting on your hands because of it keeps the dollars out of your budget.

      Security isn't "tricky" or a "grey area". Security is awareness. Understanding how and where the machines on your network communicate is usually all that's required. If you take the time to study the traffic flows every day, monitor your choke points, and respect the computing requirements of your users (who, by the way, are the business), you have a very good chance of thwarting a targeted attack or spotting a previously successful one (remember that anyone who gets in to your network has to get back out).

      The best security tools are free. What costs are bodies. Salary plus benefits for a decent analyst can top $150k/yr. Good security engineers or consultants can be twice that or more. I don't know if those costs are figured into TFA percentage. Then there's the cost of compliance - which is a real cost. Audits and compliance take bodies from other projects and initiatives, alter business timelines, and add complexity to the infrastructure. Anyone who's been through a PCI audit can attest to the expense. Audit costs leave very little for machines and software.

      Want money for security? Show your managers where the weak spots are. Where is your machine and software inventory? What are your critical systems? How is your patch management system working? Are your IDS's tuned to your inventory and patch level? What about the change management system? Do you know what changes have been made on your network? Do you have an accounting of all the ACL's in your firewalls and routers? Do you know how traffic flows in your network? Can you demonstrate it? The business parlance for these things today is "process". Do you have a Security Process? Want money? Demonstrate your Process....
      Regards,
      t-e

  16. Those things certainly are part of I.S. security.. by Nick+Driver · · Score: 1

    Unless they count a UPS, RAID and tape drives as security
     
    ...they definitely fit into the FIPS 199 concept of the CIA triad , which stands for:
    Confidentiality
    Integrity
    Availability

    UPS and RAID are part of Availability and tape backups (disaster recovery) are considered under both Availability and Integrity.

  17. 20% !? by Stormie · · Score: 1

    I probably shouldn't admin this for fear of making my workplace look like an attractive target, but DAMN, there is no way that anything even remotely close to 20% of our IT budget is spent on security. I'd be surprised if it was 2%.

    1. Re:20% !? by hejog · · Score: 0

      same, probably less than 1%. I can't even think what SME businesses _could_ spend it on besides the obvious AV / Firewall stuff ...

    2. Re:20% !? by tt076714 · · Score: 1

      i think it is worth to increase the it budgets on security to 20%. Because there is more awareness for multiple layers of security measures. High profile data breaches ensure executives know what is at stake, it's not just the security pros, network managers and system admins scrambling for adequate budgets.

      It's not clear whether overall IT budgets are growing in the surveyed organizations but I'd guess they're not, at least not by much. I suspect IT budgeting is still pretty much a zero-sum game. While the added spending on security is good news, I suspect it means other worthy projects are not funded. Add that to the cost of cybercrime

    3. Re:20% !? by tt076658 · · Score: 1

      i agree with the budget increase..

      because Wireless technology is now a major worry for most companies, so much so that many predict security spending rising by up to 20 percent to patch up its weaknesses.

      It happens because the use of wireless technology has evolved according to the rapacious need for connectivity, with security being an afterthought. Companies now face a period of catch-up.

      maybe some users do not aware of the security concerns.But many mobile employees say they access unauthorized wireless networks in public places and in their neighborhoods. Many say they don't encrypt data on their wireless devices or set passwords to prevent physical access to their information. And, inevitably, some mobile users lose their devices or suffer from theft.

      Increased use of mobile and wireless devices all adds up to more chance of loss and theft. i think it's better to increase the budger rather than increase the amount of loss.

    4. Re:20% !? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      i agree with the budget increase..

      The problem is the crisis mentality that's infected our corporate and governmental sectors. The network guys that do run a tight ship and don't have many problems have a hard time justifying a bigger budget because ... they don't have many problems. Eventually, however, the network gets cracked, and now suddenly there's justification for more spending on security. Of course, by then it's way too late since the breach already occurred.

      It's tough to make the bottom-dollar mentality spend money proactively. They just don't see a reason for it until after the disaster.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  18. SPAM, Antivirus, Firewalls, VPNs... by WoTG · · Score: 1

    At first glance 20% sounds really high, but once you think about what could be mixed in with security, I'd believe 20%. No, it shouldn't be that high, but thanks to the great Internet thing, that's what we get.

  19. Use OpenBSD... by kcbanner · · Score: 1

    ...and its secure from the start.

    Linux Admin: "BSD? lolwut? thats like that OS from the fifties right?"
    OpenBSD Admin: *sigh*

    --
    Obligatory blog plug: http://www.caseybanner.ca/
  20. 1 layer of the onion by mackermacker · · Score: 1
    nerf weapons huh... I guess if your a security auditor like me, you should consider switching firms. Our motto over here is 'defense in depth'....

    In terms the Nubian can understand, that means we also have the matching shields and hats.

  21. In Short... by Hooya · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... Business spend 20% of their IT budgets - but only after spending 80% of the budget on MS software.

    I can't believe business (we currently do) have "hiring/bonus/travel" freeze but don't think twice about spending money on MS Software specifically. I guess better to pay MS employees than your own.

  22. Yes, we need to protect... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...all our Windows systems.
    Now I clearly see why nobody wants us to move away from the system that needs most protection.
    ...and why Symantec, McAfee and security experts tries to tell everyone that Linux and OS X are as much in danger as Windows...

  23. Security!! Need painkiller by rk075002 · · Score: 1

    In my place, the security and the windows department always have misunderstanding.It is not that security department does not want to beef up the security, it is because other department that want special "request".

  24. a nice way of saying... by realkiwi · · Score: 1

    ...plugging holes in Windows

    --
    realkiwi
  25. Businesses Spend 20% of IT Budgets on Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i think we should allocate some fund for the security because without any security we can't use the system safely and always need to be afraid of the hackers and viruses that going to attack our system at any time.

  26. Evidently coffee must be = 21% of IT budgets by MadMidnightBomber · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "If you spend more on coffee than on IT security, then you will be hacked," [Richard] Clarke said during his keynote address. "What's more, you deserve to be hacked."

    --
    "It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
  27. Depends on your view of "security" by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 3, Informative

    A clueless Admin hosting something maybe. But by default install of Desktop Linux those services that can be cracked if not correctly setup are not running.

    You are taking a very shallow view of security here. Sure, controlling what services are listening is a good first step. But your biggest threat isn't the outside hacker. It's the inside guy. It's being able to -prove- who did what, when.

    A defualt install of Desktop Linux is far more secure and safe then the default install of Windows.

    But once you move beyond that default install, and beyond shutting down unnecessary services, Linux isn't necessarily that "secure". The default install of Linux still has many problems that have to be addressed in order to have a secure system. Of course, so does Windows, but my point is that you cannot just load Linux, turn off services, and think you have anything like a secure system. In fact there are some advisable security requirements that are harder to implement on Linux than on Windows.

    I have secured both to NSA recommended standards, and yes, in general I prefer Linux, but don't fool yourself that any like a default Linux install is inherently secure, especially when it comes to auditing and attribution.

    --
    A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    1. Re:Depends on your view of "security" by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Thanks for presenting a well-balanced perspective. I too have run into this kind of stuff, auditing on OS X seems a hell of a lot harder especially to make en masse changes to policy. Have you found a way to manage it? Most machines in our place are Windows based so its easy, the Linux boxes don't see end-users as they are back-end service providers like my Oracle installs so auditing is very basic and easy there.

    2. Re:Depends on your view of "security" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have heard there are tools for OSX policy management, but I don't have any experience or specifics on them. Googling "OSX policy management" brings up some interesting hits...

  28. So many people turn off default security features! by Russell+Coker · · Score: 1

    Fedora, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and CentOS come with a reasonable Net Filter (iptables) configuration by default that allows the necessary operations. It can be easily configured to allow extra ports, trusted interfaces, etc. It often gets turned off because it's supposedly too hard.

    Fedora, RHEL, and CentOS also come with SE Linux enabled by default, it gets turned off more often than Net Filter.

    I find it difficult to believe that any significant portion of IT budget goes to security when I see so many people turning off things that are free and relatively easy to use.

    --
    See http://etbe.coker.com.au/ for my blog.
  29. Host vs. Network by huckamania · · Score: 1

    Host based security is tricky because if the host is compromised, a good attacker will cover their tracks. It's harder, maybe even impossible, to cover your tracks when you are dealing with something transparent on the network, like a bump in the wire.

    Detecting an attack is easier to do then thwarting an attack, and obviously so. What is sad is that many IT types would rather not even know about attacks because then they are liable. Ignorance, even in IT, is bliss.

    I once tested a network monitor that I developed on a live accounting server. They were happy to let me test until I found 3 rogue connections that tracked to known attack vectors. The next day the IT manager disconnected the network monitor and replaced the accounting server with a new box. The old accounting server got formatted before we could see if the rogue connections were actual intrusions. If they weren't, they certainly were suspicious enough to pull the box and replace it.

  30. Honesty? by Speed+Pour · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Crazy question...since nobody else has bothered to ask it...is it possible that the average company feels they will appear more "privacy responsible" by claiming to spend a huge portion on security?

    Somehow I'm picturing companies answering surveys with 20%, stock investors are probably hearing 2%-5%, and the people who actually make decisions are really putting in about 7%-12%.

    --
    - Nobody would know what RTFA meant if it didn't need to be said all the time
  31. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  32. Y2K Redux by bstarrfield · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seems to me that we're seeing another Y2k scenario - there is a real issue, and let's all overreact. Y2K was a profitable business for many consulting firms, contractors, and software vendors. The Y2K situation was something that needed to be addressed but by scaring C-level executives there's great profit to be made!

    Read one of the security journals, look at the marketing hype coming out of Symantec, McAfee, and any number of security consulting firms - the primary message is fear. Fear of some unquantifiable buggiman come to get your precious data. Precious little data on how many monsters are out to get your data, but you best be afraid. And I agree - there is reason to be concerned, but no reason to be hysterical and dedicate one fifth of your IT budget to the nebulous Security functions.

    How many of these security consultants are brand new? How many are receiving certifications from the very same groups that are attempting to promote the opinion that there's a security crisis? Can you fix security problems yourself, within your own firm? Damn likely. Many IT groups underestimate their abilities (or their senior managers do), and outsource a job that could, perhaps, be done better in house.

    I realize that we can't ignore the security issue, just as we couldn't ignore Y2K. But hysterically throwing money onto the problem won't solve the problem either. Don't waste your money if you can avoid it. Don't just fall for the drama of the moment if at all possible

    --
    /* Dang, I can't type that well. */
  33. Security is expensive by ancalikorn_pk073892 · · Score: 1

    There is not impossible if the budget will increase year by year as we know that security is very important in IT nowadays. A lot of testing has to perform to produce the secure system.All of these testing required a huge amount of budget.

  34. hmmm by PK075010 · · Score: 1

    it good thing, they use 1 over 5 in security budgect...security is most important part in today life...without it how can how can we protect our secretor information from others...include militarry...without it may be..cave man know how many tank we have and operate...it worth to pay for it... --- (=.=')0....got red for english

  35. Cost-benefit analysis? by Hugo+Graffiti · · Score: 1
    Has anyone done a cost-benefit analysis for the amount of money spent on IT security? Seems like the only people qualified to estimate the probabilities - ie security consultants - have a vested interest in over-exaggerating security dangers.


    I found this book review which seems to suggest that nobody knows:

    The major flaw with MCR arrives in ch 4, on p 68: "The variables affecting potential cost savings include (1) the potential losses associated with information security breaches, (2) the probability that a particular breach will occur, and (3) the productivity associated with specific investments, which translates into a reduction in the probability of potential losses." This is true -- but this is the key problem: devising even rough estimates of 1, 2, and 3 is nearly impossible in practice. The authors' examples (see figure 4-2 for one) assume these factors can be determined (like $10 mil total potential loss without countermeasures, 75% probability of loss with no countermeasures / 50% with $650,000 of countermeasures, and so on). When I saw these contrived examples I wondered "what is the origin of these figures?" The fact of the matter is that they are all guesswork, which means the calculator can say anything the analyst wishes to produce.


    In some sense we are back to square one, although much better educated in economics. (Note that Andy Jaquith's book Security Metrics also observes how calculating these figures is nearly impossible in real life.)

  36. At current rate of increase, by my calculations... by jackpot777 · · Score: 1

    ...security spending will take up 155% of IT's budget in the year 2015.

    Either someone has to increase IT's budget before the 100% mark is reached in 2013, or the DBAs should be sent out to pillage from Accounts Receivable.

    --
    Shiny. Let's be bad guys...
  37. ...for certain definitions of "security" by swordgeek · · Score: 1

    20%? Seems high, but when you consider the three biggest parts of their "security" budget," antivirus software, firewalls, and proxy servers" it falls into place--especially since most survey-answerers would lump antivirus measures in with antispam.

    Real security--IDS, systems and network monitoring, incident response, still gets short shrift--mostly a bit of lip service whenever Sarbanes-Oxley gets tossed around but no real support. It's hard to get a budget though, when security geeks aren't geared up for a proper risk-cost-analysis.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
  38. damned lies and statistics by GregNorc · · Score: 1

    Too bad most companies vastly underspend on IT in general... so that "20% of all IT spending" is probably much smaller than it sounds.

  39. If you can measure it, it's probably bullshit by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    Real security work is integrated. How do you measure, "decided to write it to avoid the possibility of buffer overflows" or "designed it to not execute foreign code when an ignorant user merely 'clicks' on something" in your budget?

    They spill the bullshitbeans here:

    According to CompTIA, antivirus software, firewalls, and proxy servers hold the top slots for security enforcement technologies

    They're just talking about how much was spent buying faux-security products. "Security enforcement technologies," sheesh!

    If it said, "Spend 4 hours per employee training them to not download and execute arbitrary code from the web and CDs" I'd say it was a meaningful figure. But this analysis is merely a measurement of IT parasitism.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  40. budget... by PK073912_CSNB514 · · Score: 1

    Now days internet become as an important part on the human life. everything is done by using internet and many companies do their business by using internet to market their products and services. every year.. every month and every days the business in internet are increasing.. and.. also the cybercrime... therefore the companies need to pay attention more about their security by find out the best solution to defend themselves from attacker or intruders.. as the result they need to spend more budget to get good security. the question is.. if the cost of cybercrime is increasing, are companies budgeting enough to defend themselves?:) here has an article about this topic.. http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=133814

  41. Contradicted by another survey by joeflies · · Score: 1

    A report this month by Computer Security Institute says that fewer than 9% of its respondents said they spend more than 10% of their IT budget on security. The bulk of respondents (page 7) said that the number is closer to 2-5%.

  42. Except the Niggardly State of Ohio . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From another story on Slashdot, it appears that the State of Ohio had spent much less than average on IT security in the past, but now plans on spending an additional US$8 million because of their foolishly frugal ways.

  43. Not here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At Costco, it's about 0.5%

  44. increasing... by PK075008 · · Score: 1

    business people spent money for security while security make money from it....well, welcome to real world!it's all about money!

  45. Sell it to the suits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I spent 3 years transforming my security department from an IT function to a business function. The VP Technology thought security was simply firewalls and IDS. Throw more at the problem and you are done. I made the case to the company President that my team can not do their job if the VP of IT gets to decide acceptable risk for the whole company. I managed to sell him on the idea and today IT Security works for the General Consul. We don't press buttons on firewalls, but instead we act as the GAO for IT in the company. We do audits along with the guys from Finance and present those reports to the General Consul who then looks at the liability to the company. Then we present our findings to the entire C-Suite who is then advised by the General Consul of the liability that can arise from not correcting our findings. Official minutes are recorded and anyone who votes not to correct an issue will be on the record. At our first presentation the CFO was the first to agree with our General Consul and authorized $2 million in spending for IT to get extra personnel and equipment. As it turned out the VP never submitted any budget requests for security or to even beef up the mail servers, but his bonus was pretty large (thanks to the guys in financial audit for finding that one).

    There are several problems that contribute to security not receiving the attention it should. Most firewall jockeys are at the staff level in an organization. If you're lucky you might be a security manager reporting to the IT Director. If this is the case you are probably not getting the budget you require because you are talking tech to another techie who doesn't really convey the risk to VP and C-Level management. When was the last time someone sat down with the CFO or other execs and expressed concern over the accounting system? Could you carry on a business conversation with one of the executives? They don't want to hear about buffer overflows, and spyware. They want to hear about financial risk, such as a "thing" (a worm or virus to us) that could take down the servers that run the assembly line in the factory and cost them $100k per hour and how spending $25k on a "thing" (antivirus, whatever) fixes a $100k/hr risk. Talk to other people in your company and find out what would really ruin their day.

    My advice to any people about to graduate from high school who want to go into security, find yourself a community college and get an A.S. in Information Security, then get a BA in Business (if you can concentrate in management or finance do it). Then one day go on for a MBA or JD if you want to be VP of Compliance or VP of Security Audit or join the C-Suite of executives. IT Security is no longer just a technical discipline, but a service to the business. We should begin changing with the times.

  46. Budgeting for security by seriwani · · Score: 1

    security matter are taken seriouly recently because many company are willing to spend investment on it, plus it's a must to have a good security system in business.I think the budget for security is increasing because of the problem with budgeting.Estimating your security costs can be difficult but if you know how to plan it more precisely there is no problem about the budgeting of IT budgets on security.

  47. Security Budgets part II by seriwani · · Score: 1

    In 2007, most firms plan to spend between 7.5% and 9.0% of their IT budgets on security, regardless of their size, geography, and industry. This convergence of budgets points to the maturity of information security discipline and the solidification of the information security role within the organization. As security professionals grow from purely IT-centric and technology-focused roles into information-centric and risk-focused roles, they need a new set of tools and processes to fulfill their responsibilities. As a result, security spending is on the rise again, and organizations across North America and Europe will spend 7.91% of their IT budgets on security, compared with 7.75% in 2006.