Slashdot Mirror
Does Computer Use Actually Cause Carpal Tunnel?
BoldAC writes "A geek physician has reviewed the medical literature that explores if a relationship exists between computer use and carpal tunnel syndrome. 'Typing at the keyboard or using the mouse for hours and hours upon end just seems like it has to be horrible for your joints, right?' His conclusions certainly seem to contradict the thinking of many: 'The current research shows that computer use has very little role in causing carpal tunnel syndrome.' It even seems that both Harvard and the Journal of the American Medical Association agree with his conclusions."
Does this mean Emacs Pinky is just evil VI propaganda?
I'd post a longer reply, but my hands hurt.
Everyone knows carpal tunnel is caused only by typing done whilst visiting adult sites, which explains why so many of you perverts have it!
stuff |
Baloney, of course computer use causes carpal tunnel....well, certain types of computer use anyways....
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
It is because most computer users (geeks) do not have girlfriends. So they hurt their wrist looking at porn...well the wrist are busy doing other stuff.
I smoked pot once. But I DID NOT inhale. Will you hire me?
It has to do with computers, the internet, geeks and a left or right hand to stimulate certain nerve endings... that's probably the cause of all that carpal tunnel excuse. Introduce more girls into the world that would accept people here at /. and we'll have the 'cure'
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
I have CTS and am going for my op early next month to fix it. I'm 33 now and have used computers since the ZX81.
;o)
My GP insists that my CTS has nothing to do with my years of computer use, and that in fact it will be good post-op physio.
Still, I'm having one hand done at a time so that I can still manage one handed browsing.
Hasn't been the same ever since the interweb :(
Stallman has RSI. A good Emacs-using friend of mine has RSI. The standard Emacs key bindings, together with a modern standard keyboard, makes your fingers contort in entirely unnatural ways. I was forced to use Emacs with the standard bindings for a while and I developed severe aches in my joints within 2 years, at which point I quit using Emacs and now my joints are fine.
I have carpet funnel syndrome, you insensitive Claude!
Then how the hell did changing to an ergonomic keyboard and trackball stop the excruciating pain in my wrists that I experienced when using my old keyboard and mouse?
Technically speaking, I probably had tendinitis rather than carpal tunnel. Still, it's rather upsetting when you tell your doctor you have RSI and he doesn't have a clue what your talking about. God damn medical racket.
Well I've been typing all day, every day for over a decade, no ergonomic keyboard, no special mouse mats, etc, and I've not experienced anything like RSI/CTS/etc. I have, however, had a bad back caused by bad posture, which quickly righted itself when I started sitting up straight. I would have thought that if RSI was caused by computer use, I'd be suffering at least a little, but so far, nothing.
Now if they can just definitively show that masturbation does not cause blindness, geeks will finally be able to live worry-free.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
I type TONS every day being a developer... my carpal tunnel problems came NOT from computer usage but rather from having a written style FORCED upon my hands and wrists by jerk teachers growing up. No my hands are weak as shit and I can't write more than a paragraph without feeling it. But I can do uhm... other... activities....(lol) just fine, typing included.
Does the research mention if the results are different depending on whether the computer has stepmania installed?
I wish to remain anomalous
Actually, it would be very difficult to find a link between "computer usage" and carpal tunnel syndrome because there are so many variables. Are they measuring time in front of a screen? Typing time? Mousing time? Here's an important one - ratio of keyboard width to waist size. Sound stupid? Well combine a wide waist with a small-footprint keyboard, and your wrists are held at an unnatural bend (instead of straight in line with your forearms), causing pain. I speak from anecdotal experience. But I got an ergonomic split keyboard, and no more pain (approx 11 hours of computer time per day adding work and home). So it is not necessarily the repetitive motion, but the ergonomics of the motion.
I had very bad symptoms through college, was even considering having an operation done. It got a little better after college, but I was still at a desk all day working as a programmer. then I got a nice desk and chair at home, and did the same thing at work. Now I never have problems even though I still type a lot and I also play guitar. I think posture and ergonomics have a lot to do with it, at least in the office world.
I'm older than any of you guys and I spend way too much time in front of a computer (ask my wife!). My hands are just fine, thank you. I got rid of the mouse a long time ago; now I use a trackpad. I also take breaks to go to a window and look off at something on the horizon, it helps prevent the seemingly ubiquitous nearsightedness (literally, not figuratively) among geeks.
This story is nothing new. What's really needed is a clarification of terms.
I have RSI (Repetitive Stress Injuries) and my carpal tunnel is just fine. It's the other nerves, tendons, and muscles of my hands which ache and cause the severe pain. If you try and explain this to people they just say 'Carpal Tunnel Syndrome' unless they're a doctor. Computer use DOES cause RSI which is the real problem, and a really painful and dangerous thing. Other tasks, sewing for instance, can also cause RSI. The phenomenon is not new.
How the carpal tunnel got so famous I don't know, but the term has stuck.
Photos.
... because the layout of the studies seems to simple (I suspect that the risk of CTS is (extremely) increased by covariates - amount of exercise, quality of 'general posture' etc.).
:)
Besides, the finding "Moderate evidence was concluded for a positive association between the duration of mouse use and hand-arm symptoms." (from a related study, http://oem.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/64/4/211 ) constitutes evidence for my pet theory that right-hand usage for 'right'-handed people is not appropriate, as it constrains the well trained hand two only simple movements (I am retraining 'lefthandedness' but did not change the keyboard/mouse layout for that reason, so there is at least single case evidence
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
The latest issues of CR (I'm a subscriber) listed carpel tunnel as one of the most over-diagnosed health problems. Something about a for-profit healthcare industry....just sits weird with me. I wonder how many times it would be diagnosed at all if they couldn't get the insurance companies to pony up the dough.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Apparently pregnancy and menopause are "diseases." I also fail to see how it makes any sense to consider those conditions as ones that would "predispose" an individual to carpal tunnel. Have there been peer-reviewed studies showing a causation there or something?
I smell BS, by which I mean Bad Science. But maybe that's just my usual lazy self not reading things carefully enough.
I like basketball!!1!
As far as the aches and pains of computer use my experience is such:
1) 11 hours straight of Everquest - no pain from mouse or keyboard
2) 6 hours of Quake (back in the day) - no pain from mouse or keyboard
3) 20 minutes of mouse use at odd angle (but not so odd as to say other people wouldn't use a mouse like this) - back of hand starting hurting
4) Couple days of keyboard and mouse use on bad desk setup (keyboard high, forearms rest on edge of desk, etc) - shoulder and elbow pain.
I know what my body does and doesn't like. Relaxed shoulders, no reaching for the mouse, etc.
I don't think he would appreciate this news.
A lot of people confuse the two. It's very easy to get repetitive strain from using a computer. Wrist pain/weakness need not come in the form of carpal tunnel syndrome.
Computer work decreases blood flow to the wrist. In the absence of complementary activities that increase blood flow to the wrist, computer users are at risk of RSI.
FTA "Classically the associated diseases are the following: rheumatoid arthritis, menopause, hypothyroidism, acromegaly, end-stage renal disease, pregnancy, and obesity. "
:)
I wasn't aware pregnancy had been declared a disease
Oh Lordy, the number of posts so far NOT involving spankin' duh monkey can be counted on one hand. Which is GOOD because my other hand is entirely busy at the moment.
I know that my little anecdote only adds one sample to this set of data. But, for me it didn't cause the injury it just kept if from being able to heal.
I hurt my wrist playing volleyball and the inflammation that I had caused the median nerve to be squeezed and gave me some nice Carpal Tunnel symptoms. I had never had problems with this before, but it seemed to get worse after the injury with computer use and would not heal. I had never had a problem with mouse use before so this was really frustrating.
I ended up buying a vertical mouse and after about 3 weeks problem gone. I can only assume that the inflamed tendons where rubbing in the tunnel and staying inflamed.
Now I don't worry about the mouse I use and the problem has not come back 4+ years later. I still take out and use the oddball vertical mouse though.
But, mouse use definitely caused my wrist pain to stick around longer than it needed to.
I'm reasonably convinced that poor posture and hand position while *driving* contributes more tho CTS and/or RSI than typing does.
I think it's a serious confounding variable, that most office workers have those two things in common: significant time spent driving a car, and typing on computer keyboards.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
of an internet connected computer, in private, leads to porn
porn leads to chronic masturbation
chronic masturbation leads to carpal tunnel syndrome
so yes, computer use actually causes carpal tunnel, but not through the mechanism in question
you could test this theory by testing a corollary of it: computer use leading to more penises that curve to the right. most people are right handed and some have a bad death grip masturbation style, so chronic masturbation sometimes causes peyronie's disease (as well as loss of sensitivity in general. so lighten up there, death grip kiddies). so therefore, i bet you could make a mark in the medical literature by noting an increase in right curving penises over the past two decades due to the explosion in internet porn, as well as more carpal tunnel syndrome
i say this all in half jest, but i'm beginning to sound more serious than i intended, so i'll go to full jest to compensate:
i for one hail our broken wristed bent penised porn addicted overlords
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Interesting research. I'll have to check it out. In the meantime, here's my obligatory retort in any hand-problem related thread:
Get off your butt and go exercise. Whatever the cause, *if* you have hand problems, exercise *may* help. It works wonders for me, and I spend 50 hours a week typing on the computer. Even if it doesn't help your carpal tunnels, it's good for you in lots of other ways. Don't argue, just do it.
IANAD, YMMV. (DNRTFA. Yet.)
All the geeks I know with CTS are also urban bicycle enthusiasts. My theory is that the amount of jarring impacts and the force of them over time contribute CTS. What is weird to me is that all the CTS people I know are fit. Exercize regularly. The chubby geeks drink their dew and type at 120 words per minute with seemly no apparent problems other than being on the fast track to diabetes.
If it is not computer use, then what other activity would lead to so many slashdotters having carpal tunnel?
I have an MS fingerprint reading keyboard (doesn't work in Linux) and a MS wireless mouse.
The keyboard is so-so but the mouse is horrible. The wheel is hard to turn and I have to put more pressure on the wheel than normal to turn it.
After a day of that my fingertip hurts. It's numb and feels like I smashed it with a hammer. So all day long I find myself using different fingers on the wheel. Even the next day when I get up after sleeping and having been off the computer for 8+ hours, my fingertip still hurts. It's pretty much permanent. A numb pain like I smashed it.
Also the back of my hand hurts like hell too. It's 100% from using the keyboard and mouse.
I've tried all the weird ergonomic keyboards but none really help. Maybe some of the exotic types would be better but they are too expensive.
I guess this is to be expected though considering I spend 16+ hours a day at the computer.
Yes, computers specifically have nothing to do with it. It has to do with genetics and has to do with repetitive motion and/or pressing the nerves of your hands against some hard surface.
Doesn't change the fact people who use mice, keyboards and posture in a certain way end up with CTS.
A totally random anecdotal example: I use mouse. After 10 years, CTS. Bought Wacom, no pain, use mouse, pain, use wacom, no pain, use mouse, pain.
After year of exclusive wacom usage, no pain with mouse nor wacom. After using the mouse for some time, again pain.
I think I'll conclude mice is not good for my hand and keep on using my Wacom
But what appears undeniable is that if someone is sensitive or already suffering from CT, then some computer use can aggravate it. Especially mouse use from poorly designed programs. Some are just have horrible ergo, and my wrists will ache after an hours' use. Normally, I can type all day long.
Hush. You're ruining it for the lawyers. How do you expect lawyers to cash in? People are in pain and the lawyers haven't fully exploited the moneymaking opportunity yet! Computer companies have deep, deep pockets, you know.
Wait until the companies have settled up and gone bankrupt. Then let it slip quietly that the whole thing wasn't true -- just like they did with the silicone gel breast-implant cases. Those were found to be harmless after the lawyers got paid.
About 6 years ago, I had CTS. I had just about the worst posture, hand position and everything else you could possibly imagine. And, as a programmer who spends at least 40 hours a week in front of a computer, it was starting to catch up with me. However, around that time, a friend of mine invited me to come rock climbing with him. I liked it so much that I started going to a local gym around 2-3 times a week. And a funny thing started happening...my CTS started to go away. About 3 months into my climbing habit (yes...it's an addiction), I was free of CTS pains entirely. I still have just about the worst ergonomics you could imagine, yet I have zero pain.
What I believe is going on is that CTS/RSI pain is not caused by doing one thing too often or putting your body in one position too often. Instead, it's caused by not doing other things often enough or putting your body in other positions often enough. I don't have any proof of that except for my own personal experience and the experiences of others that I've told, but those seem to indicate that bad posture/ergonomics can be counteracted by regular exercise of the affected area.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
Especially since many, many people have a white-knuckled deathgrip on the steering wheel during that drive, due to congested and/or dangerous traffic conditions. That's gotta be hard on the tendons and joints.
My CTS flares up about once every 5 to 8 weeks. What I will do is wear wrist braces when it's acting up to give my wrists some extra support while I continue to work. If the pain is bothersome enough, I will also take a T3 with codeine, but I _NEVER_ just take painkillers when I am experiencing discomfort. I always adjust my working conditions so that I don't accidentally make matters worse. Usually I will need to wear the wrist braces for about a week to 10 days before I find that it's subsided enough to type without them again (which I prefer because although typing with them causes less strain on my wrist, I can type faster without them) . If you do get wrist braces as a means to cope with this, be sure to get ones from a medical supply shop that actually limit the wrist movement in all directions, not the cheap ones you can buy at a pharmacy that only really stop your wrist from bending backward.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The alternative leads to decreased brain functioning, so which is really worse?
I use the computer on average about 12-16 hours a day (from 7am to almost midnight in some cases). I don't have a single pain or symptom of capal tunnel. I don't use a keyboard wrist wrest nor anything fancy for my mouse. My wife, probably at most 1/3 of time time and had carpal tunnel relief surgery in one wrist and the other one might need it too. The doctor found rheumatoid nodules in her tissue around her wrists. I personally believe (based only on these two cases) that the cause is more towards weight and heredity rather than actual use of the wrist.
I call upon them to Ctrl-Shift-Underscore everything they have said about Emacs!
My *ahem* research has also ruled out masturbation as a potential cause.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
This reminds me of when Silicon breast implants were outlawed and lawyers made big money on settlements because a huge number of women with silicon implants got breast cancer. The reality is that women with breasts (directly related to the amount of mammary tissue) are at high risk of breast cancer. It is why unlike anything else women are encouraged to check themselves monthly. If I remember correctly, 1 in 3 women will develop some kind of mammary growth in their lifetime. That is a really scary number, particularly if you thought it was inly in your most recent cosmetic surgery.
But also keep in mind that these studies covered people who type for 7 hours a day for less. I doubt many of you old school nerds have done less than 7 hours of typing in a day in years.
I am curious how much keyboard warnings, wrist exercises and improvement in posture for hands, let alone the rest of the body, has possibly had an influence on the way we type, or if this had always been the case.
For the mentioned occupations in the article, I know many times more of those types that have carpel tunnel. Typing just doesn't require the type of strength necessary to damage carpels in that way, so it seems. This, of course, doesn't include all those people that insist on doing isometrics while playing CS or whatever. RELAX!
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
I had very bad symptoms through college, was even considering having an operation done. It got a little better after college, but I was still at a desk all day working as a programmer. then I got a nice desk and chair at home, and did the same thing at work. Now I never have problems even though I still type a lot and I also play guitar. I think posture and ergonomics have a lot to do with it, at least in the office world.
You pay them money and they will say it is midnight at 12 noon.
These guys are quacks. I have known many people in this business of computing that have RSI and not one outside of it. I too have had bouts with it twice, and once other stange incident. There is no doubt in my mind it exists. When you get that sharp pain, there is nothing else like it.
But there are ways to cope, and those that get it really bad do not listen to the early warning signs. Once you get them, start a regiment of the following:
The strange incident is where I went on a 8 day fishing trip. We fished 10 hours a day, often casting, tension and twisting the forearms. It was a h00t!
Get into the office Monday am, use the mouse for 15 minutes and bursitis balloons up on my elbow. Now I know the mouse didn't "cause" it but sure was the catalyst in aggravating it big time.
The following might explain what RSI really is (which is different than CTS, which I don't think is caused by computer use or repetitive strain at all). I am pretty much copying and pasting what I wrote the last time there was a Harvard research article about this subject:
.doc.
I cured what I thought was "RSI" using this "mindbody" approach:
http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc
(Coincidental that Harvard is hosting this document, maybe the researchers should look at it themselves)
Here is the Google cache for those who don't want to open a
I suffered for 1.5 years (where I didn't work because I didn't think I could) before I found that my cure was a completely psychological approach. From my research of CTS (as well as what my doctor told me), it is completely unrelated to typing. And from my experience with "RSI" and understanding what it actually was, I no longer believe you can actually hurt yourself from typing too much.
I now type sometimes all day long without taking many breaks. I play guitar, bass, and drums. I don't worry about posture at all. Ergonomics are only a way for me to get comfortable, not to avoid injury. I have no pain at all, and don't worry about ever having "RSI" again. It's been 3 years since I cured myself.
Please read up on the approach I'm talking about here before you flame me. It actually makes sense once you put all the pieces together. You can also search for "sarno tms" to find more info.
Read the book "The Mindbody Prescription" by John E. Sarno if you can.
Regardless of this guys "Findings", I can say with certainty that after coding or using my PC's mouse for an extended period of time, my wrist and hand does hurt for a considerable amount of time. I often find that I have to take a time out from using the mouse for a bit during the work day. I also notice that my hand/wrist does feel a lot better when I take a holiday and have no interaction with a computer for a couple weeks time. Granted, this evidence is anecdotal, but for me the correlation between the two is clear.
...and it wasn't from the 20'odd years of intense computer geekery I've subjected my body too. A couple years ago I first did one 4 day long weekend road trip from San Jose to the Grand Canyon and back, and then two weeks later a 5 day road trip through the national parks of Utah. The final day on that second trip I drove all the way from Salt Lake City to San Jose in one go, left arm on the window sill of my Nissan Murano, left wrist tense holding the wheel... The numbness and tingling pain started a couple days later, and after a diagnosis from the Dr. I wore a brace night and day for a month until the symptoms went away. Now I always wear a brace on my left wrist when doing multi-hour road trips, never had a problem since.
I beleive that it qualifies as a parasitic infection.
doesn't matter if it's bullshit. now that it's been claimed on a front page slashdot article, at least thousands of geeks will now adopt this viewpoint as fact, most likely without even reading the article.
... the real cause are the millions of pr0n sites users visit while using their PC. Thats only true if one hand is effected as in one-hand-typing. If both hands have it then it means that user is actually doing real work. (unless they have blog which is another form of masturbation) See my blog for further details.Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
things i used to do, i don't even try, one reason is I'm not as physically active or fit and, as well, I'm far more aware of the long term consequences since I'm already living with a few
;~|
oddly enough, when the biggest pain left, only then did I really miss her
I've been using personal computers since the old days of the Commodore Pet, and I can tell you for a fact that keyboards have never caused me any pasgdaserawadags at all.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Moving your fingers for a prolonged amount of time with your wrists bent will cause carpal tunnel. So there's many possibilities: guitar, playing piano, using your stress squeeze-me ball, constantly sending text messages. The real question is: do we have too many things we operate with just our fingers?
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
the Insurance industry at the bottom of this.
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
I think it's more like the insurance companies and employers.
Most computer users have the option of shifting their chair and keyboard positions, they tend to be okay. It's people that are stuck with 8 hrs a day of one keyboard position that are harder hit.
A friend of mine got a bad case of CTS after a month long binge of using the original IBM PC keyboard, you remember the click-clacker model. It's taken over 15 years for it to subside somewhat.
Well, it can be cured by surgery.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
smite ?
Slipping shoelaces ?
Good to see your carpal tunnel operation won't affect your sex life! /Sorry about that, truly, best wishes. //Has a mostly one handed browser sex life myself /// :(
You apparently don't watch enough Cops.
Yeah, there are a couple of points in those fifteen year-old articles which are sort of interesting. --That if you have arthritis, then you may be at higher risk. (Duh. --Though such points are important to medical insurance companies; if you have a prior condition, then you aren't going to be covered for your injuries.)
In any case, I don't really see why articles published fifteen years ago when RMI's were still a relatively new and misunderstood concept are suddenly worth getting upset over. It might be that the editor isn't too swift. . .
"Classically the associated diseases are the following: rheumatoid arthritis, menopause, hypothyroidism, acromegaly, end-stage renal disease, pregnancy, and obesity. Even then the data is not clear that the repetitive use contributes any."
Menopause is a disease? Pregnancy is a disease? No. But ending a sentence with the word 'any' is evidence of poor journalistic skill.
Seriously, the original claim looks like science making the classic mistake; if the lab can't explain a phenomenon, then obviously the observers out there in the public are at fault. It's swamp gas or hysteria, (menopause?). Or indeed, maybe the money funding the studies came from corporations worried about having to pay out on medical claims. Who knows? What I do know is that if you use your hands in certain sitting-at-desk work for long enough without breaks, your wrists and joints start to hurt and your back and neck can get messed up, and the skin can even wear right off the parts of your hands rubbing against the desk / paper, etc. --I knew an animator who ruined her hands trying to meet a crazy deadline with a crazy amount of work and ended up smearing blood across her easel. She was unable to work for several months afterwards. But then I suppose we can just blame her chronic condition (being female) rather than repetitive motion stress for the injury.
What a silly article.
-FL
Fear is the #1 way to get a customer to buy a product. Why do you think "FUD" starts with it?
Make 'em fear for their life, or their childrens lives, or of some disease, or 'Act of God', or of, well, anything...
Like patent infringement...
Anyway: Fear sells.
You don't wanna get carpal tunnel? Buy our keyboard/mouse/pad/whatever. Look, here's scientific data to back it up.
Or not!
(Posted by an RSI survivor - but that was from carrying heavily-laden trays of food and such, back in the days when I worked in food service. A wrist brace fixed the problem, and it's never bothered me again.)
"...there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can." ~ Mark Twain
I get carpal tunnel, and I use a computer a lot. However I don't think the mouse/keyboard is directly responsible - such activity usually doesn't cause problems. Rather I think my hands are under-worked by the light work I do and so when I go home and use a hammer for a few hours or go kayaking my wrists are unaccustomed to the abuse and flare up on me. The only problem I've ever had typing was with a keyboard that had a sticky shift key that needed a bit of extra oomph to push.
...certainly can cause injury to the hands, wrist, elbow, etc. After being a UT2003/UT2004 junkie for the past few years ever since UT2003 first came out, my hands and wrists have suffered a great deal. When I went to see my doctor to see if he'd prescribe me some celebrex, he exploded into a rage about those (expletive deleted) computer games without me even telling him why my hands were sore. He then meticulously explained to me the kinds of surgery that might need to be done if I don't curb my computer gaming, and how slow the recovery process could possibly be for as old as I am. Well, I quit gaming almost entirely except for sparce occasions and only for an hour at a time max, and my injuries have healed up quite well, but I can still feel the pain come back if I play too long, or too frequently.
And now, just today right at this very time I'm writing this comment, Slashdot posts that UT3 Beta Demo has just been released! . Damn, damn, and triple damn B-{
Personally, I think some of these RSIs attributed to "typing" are only telling 1/2 the story... I think typing may cause it but it's really "typing with poor form". Do you rest your wrists on the tabletop/desktop while you type? That's poor form... it binds things that need to slide around inside your hand/arm between your bones/muscles and the desktop. Do you wiggle the mouse around resting your wrist on the desktop? That's bad, too, for the same reason.
Similarly, are your wrists flat or does your hand form an angle with your forearm? An angle (particularly with resting your wrists on the tabletop) means that the sliding around bits has to go around corners. Normally, this probably isn't so bad (as long as your wrists aren't on the tabletop) for 'normal' use because your hand/forearms may change angles and such a lot but if you do it while typing, you may spend hours with your wrists bend and binding your sliding bits against the tabletop.
I've been typing (both programming and writing) for nearly 30 years now and have never had an RSI that I know of.
You get up groggy, haven't had enough sleep. The shower knobs are stiff. The sink knobs are too far from where you stand, so you bend over. Your bed isn't firm enough, so pushing off is a struggle. The doorknob on the way out is stiff and the door spring-loaded, so you stop it with your hand.
At work, your pen is the wrong size for your hand. Your water is too far and too low. The elevator buttons are stiff, and you can't tell when the ATM buttons (membrane keyboard) have triggered.
Many of our everyday objects are bad designs. We can fix them, with some patience and an insightful technical writer or user interface designer or interaction designer on the scene.
technical writing / development
Major premise: People say bad keyboards don't cause carpal tunnel syndrome.
Minor premise: When I switched to an ergo setup my tendinitis was cured.
Conclusion: People are full of shit.
That's some fine logic there buddy.
I guess many people do avoid pregnancy like a disease.
Also, the data is still out on Global Warming.
Nuclear power is completely safe.
Seat belts and airbags are unnecessary, and will ruin the auto industry.
1. smoking gun, mushroom cloud
2. ???
3. Let's invade Iran!
Cellphone radiation? Look, a pony!
"Niggesrs"?
...but after 4 solid days of html coding and graphics work on a website, my arm hurts like a sum-a-bitch.
If you HAVE CTS then computer usage might be that much more painful, but
using the computer might not actually give you CTS in the first place.
Kinda like root canal. Someone asked me if it hurt to have root canal.
Well, I had a good dentist and my answer was "having root canal performed
was uncomfortable, but not painful. NEEDING root canal in the first place
was painful!"
... insurance companies?
:D
As someone in the medical writing industry, I can tell you that the funding of the study, and especially, the papers written about it, have everything to do with the "results".
As my run-on suggests, I'm not an editor.
I type for a living. I do medical transcription working an 8 hour day 4-5 days a week. I'm also a student in Linux administration at a local business college and hobby with it constantly. I game at night after work. I spend probably 12-15 hours most days with a laptop on my lap. I type furiously fast and very accurately. As long as I obey practical prevention techniques, like keep my wrists straight, take frequent breaks to rest and stretch, and drink plenty of fluids, I could probably keep this up for another 10-15 years before osteoarthritis sets in, as is likely based on my dad's current joint health. One big benefit from my past is that I worked for a hand rehabilitation therapy clinic with a bunch of occupational therapists who taught me all I ever needed to know about wrist health.
It's all about posture. If you type with your hands in funny positions, yes, they're going to hurt. If you're a skinny person with skinny wrists, you're more likely to develop the condition due to basic mechanical stress on your wrists. Baby them and be careful. Splinting before you get symptoms can help stave off but not prevent the syndrome. Most of all, don't take the advice of some geek on Slashdot, talk to your doctor and let him know of any problems you might have.
move your mouse with your arm
But now my arm hurts.
I worked at a relay center (phone calls for deaf people through the internet) for 3.5 years and developed pretty serious RSI, to the extent that the Dr. gave me wrist splints to wear all day and night. I went on a 6-week canoe trip down the Mississippi and, even though I was putting serious pressure on my wrists for about 10-12 hours a day, all my symptoms went away. I came back to go to Uni and within a few months of typing without other physical activity, the problems were back.
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
But I'm pretty sure it causes Tourette's syndrome.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I can type on a keyboard and use a mouse just fine without any pain, but if I have to write with a pencil, it starts to kill me. Do pencils cause carpal tunnel?
-The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
No CTS yet. Started as a typesetter on a dedicated computer, then a ZX81 to CoCo to IBM PC.
I had a brush with it when I was playing one of the games (Command and Conquer or Starcraft, I forget). I got so intense and devoted a lot of time in completing the game that my right wrist was really getting irritated with me. I switched to a marble mouse and that seemed to fixed the problem.
I'm a Unix geek so I type a lot and I screw around with web pages and mysql and I'm a documentation geek. I was hired at my current job specifically because I'm good with Unix and have a liking for documentation.
[John]
Shit better not happen!
I've been a heavy PC user for almost 10 years (no, not that heavy), and in that time, I've not had wrist problems until I started playing guitar for hours on end. In this case, my strumming/mouse/right hand was the one affected. Guitar causes carpal, not keyboards.
That first S is used in the word Linus, which is read top to bottom in the second column.
I've been using computers since age 4, for some twenty years now. I've never had hand joint or tendon problems. Then again, I also do the sensible thing, i.e. I take stretching and walking around breaks every couple of hours.
Of course this is purely anecdotal. I might just have superior nordic hacker genetics or something.
This is my current setup, after trying several ergo solutions. Posture, straight wrists, correct monitor position and massage all help. I've cranked out well over 40k LOC with this setup without problems. With a traditional kbd and mouse I was getting shoulder, wrist and hand pain... not any more. I'm sure it's possible to use a standard setup without RSI, if you ensure that the ergonimics are good.
I suffer from Ulnar Nerve Syndrome, and after making a few changes in the way a use my computer about a decade ago when it was diagnosed the symptoms rapidly improved, and improvement continued over the following few months, I have not had ANY incidents of severe pain, nor has there been any progression.
My doctor at the time told me that many cases described as CTS are not in fact CTS but are some other kind of damage. BUT... the changes in behavior intended to alleviate CTS are effective at resolving superficially similar problems, and avoiding pain and loss of motion whatever the cause.
So... if you are suffering from pain that may be alleviated by changing your work habits, DO IT. And you should be talking to your doctor about it anyway.
Driving doesn't cause death... if your careful. Typing doesn't cause carpal tunnel, if your careful, amazing isn't it.
I had it as well. I actually ended up going in for medical treatment. The physician told me that he could send me for physical therapy, but that I could get the same results myself. I was assigned to attach a rubber band to my pinky and ring finger and repeatedly stretch.
In a completely unrelated event (*I* would never tamper with university equimpent!), shortly thereafter I found a piece of plastic that looked a lot like I would speculate the mechanical toggle mechanism from the apple keyboard on my desk would--and, coincidentally, that toggle stopped working and I could use the key to the left of the "a" as God intended. [I was using macbsd]
Anyway, in my case, the stretch was exaggerated--I have large but not huge hands, which meant that I had to rotate my left wrist for my pinky to even get to the control-key-in-exile.
I don't know how well the exercises would have worked, as I switched back to the True Editor in the aftermath as well.
hawk
I find that the CTS is actually worse in my dominant arm. I believe it is at least in part due to mouse use, because I find that when it flares up, it's far more painful to use a mouse than it is for me to type.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
with keyboarding, my forearms would have already fallen off.
Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
Absolutely the same here...I'm an engineer/drafter that spends 40+ hrs a week at the keyboard, plus loves computer gaming at home. Around 10 years ago, I started getting rather serious RSI symptoms. Pain-spikes, numbness, tingling, it was progressing fast.
Shortly after that same time I started a martial arts class for fun. We routinely did a lot of different hand form exercises (fists, grips, tiger claws, etc) that would turn my wrists and forearms to jelly during classes.
Shortly thereafter (over about 3-6 months), my RSI symptoms lessened and gradually dissappeared. I'm now 10 years older, still do my kung-fu drills part time, and can spend entire days on a keyboard without the slightest pain or twinge and come home and play games until dawn.
Rock-climbing is likely very similar in the strength and flexibility of movement of the fingers and wrists. I fully credit kung fu for "curing" my RSI. I'm just glad that I coincidentally discovered it when I did.
----- And all that the Lorax left here in this mess was a small pile of rocks, with one word...UNLESS.
I find that the CTS is actually worse in my dominant arm. I believe it is at least in part due to mouse use, because I find that when it flares up, it's far more painful to use a mouse than it is for me to type.
FWIW, I found that switching the mouse to the left hand for a month and then alternating every couple of weeks made all my arm pain go away. It takes a day or two to get used to using the mouse in the off-hand, but was well worth it for me.
rage, rage against the dying of the light
I'll be modded down for this, but how does for-profit food production and distribution sit with you? What about for-profit home building? What about whatever you do for a living? Don't you sell your labor to your employer at a profit, or have you been a volunteer all your life?
Here's a thought experiment... what if doctors and drug scientists UNIONIZED? Then whose side would you be on? You're not anti-union, are you?
I know exactly where my repetitive strain comes from....Stress
I am a firm believer in stress kills. A long, long time ago I had a serious stress problem. I thought I was having ergo problems. I changed everything out to ergo and took breaks, but by the end of the day my hands were claws. I couldn't type. Every morning I was fine, but I driving home at the end of the day with sticks for hands. Then one morning I was fine until I got a stressful phone call and it clicked to me what the problem was...since then I try not to let anything bother me. It isn't worth your life.
Oh and that stress...was caused by one manager who I said I could outlast...I did, but it wasn't worth the price...other employees had health issues too, one had a heartattack and another was put on heart medicine.
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
As a 7-year practitioner, I can confidently say that Aikido is absolutely priceless for a programmer, because it does the following: * makes you UNLEARN the crooked posture habits while walking and sitting * reprograms the way you walk for better balance... you learn to keep your spine straight without it being forced or unnatural * can be good cardio depending on particular dojo/class (good for sedentary programmer types) * puts a LOT of focus on (small) joint manipulation - keeps the crust out of your WRISTS, elbows, shoulders In my experience as a heavy PC user, Aikido makes you practically immune to CTS/RSI . Its not so good to the knees over long term but there's always a price to pay ;)
Either way I believe its a must-have physical activity for a programmer.
I used to work in a lumber yard by day, code by night, and play guitar on weekends, and when I did that, my wrists were a mess. I had to wear wrist braces, take waaay too much OTC pain killers, etc. However, since I stopped with the lumber yard, I've had no problems whatsoever. From wikipedia:
Studies done by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), indicated that job tasks involving highly repetitive manual acts or necessitating wrist bending or other stressful wrist postures were connected with incidents of CTS or related problems. However, it appears that the 30+ studies reviewed were concerned with the occupations of assembly line workers, meat packers, food processors, and the like, not general office work.So unless you type in some extremely stupid fashion (I have very poor typing posture myself), I'm not inclined to believe that's enough to get carpal tunnel. And now for the haha-only-serious portion of this post:
In the February 2006 article in TFM, Anne Vazquez wrote: "A recent report from Harvard Medical School stated that one should not confuse an RSI with carpal tunnel syndrome. Researchers found that carpal tunnel is caused when nerves in the wrist are pinched; however, it's not caused by frequent use of a keyboard. Rather, it is caused by heredity, body weight, fracture, or even pregnancy, the report states. Still, researchers warned that improper computer use could cause different types of RSIs; carpal tunnel is just incorrectly described as one." Click this link to read the rest of the article: http://www.todaysfacilitymanager.com/tfm_06_02_cover.php
Rage Rage against the dying of the right. - Sen Larry Craig as told to Rep Mark Foley.
a lot of CTS is really tendonitis
I see a lot about typing but mousing causes more problems than typing for me.
Course mine is now compounded by chemo and diabetes.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
right......and which insurance company paid for this study????
It sure does.
The first time I played Doom against a human, I was using the keyword and tried frantically to beat them, I did okay but they beat me and were impressed that I was using kbd. The next 3 days were painful, I could hardly type.
I switched to the mouse after not playing it for a few weeks, and I got better at the game and no pain.
These days, I only get pain if I play games at night and weekend in addition to typing during the day. Even then the pain is very mild.
I remember a friend who played guitar and then did lots of typing, it caused him so much pain he had to give up the guitar for a long time.
Do everything in moderation and don't over do things.
You mean C-S-_, you poseur!
I think an issue with diagnosing the cause of CTS and other chronic pain conditions is that we(ourselves & doctors) are always looking for a structural problem in the area with the pain as the cause for pain. Dr. John Sarno has done some very good work involving healing people with chronic pain issues for years. He attributes the cause of most chronic pain to be psycho somatic in origin. Very worth while looking into if you suffer from chronic pain.
I personally battled chronic back pain that was attributed to a herniated disc(via MRI)...once i started tying underlying emotions to pain it went away...very bizzare sounding at first but it allowed me to rid myself of back pain and never waste time/money on another doctor visit. Bonus too was that other pains went away (rotator cuff, knee, tight hamstrings) with no physical therapy whatsoever. The single best thing Ive ever done regarding personal health.
I still work 40 hours/week at a computer but could care less about posture (I also spend my free time hunched over riding a road bike).
Chronic pain sucks the fat man's ass... What sucks worse is that we are conditioned to deal with it via drugs, physical therapy and surgery. Keep an open mind and question your doctor(s) if you think what they tell you is BS.
as in, like y2k, is more or less a overblown sham. the real issue is your back. go to a chiropractor first before having some doctor tear open your wrist and do a temporary fix on your wrist.
seriously. when I chiropractor adjusted my back and loosened all my muscles since I tend to lean on one arm, all joint pains went away.
cutting yourself open doesnt fix everything.
1. Ibuprofen/ice didn't help at all
2. Got nerve conduction study, xrays, visit with M.D. to rule out carpal tunnel / nerve damage, other stuff
3. Oddly heat, massage, exercise, helped, ie. anything increasing circulation
4. Read John Sarno. Realized that pain accompanied changing residences/jobs.
5. Next day, pain 98% gone, typing away whole day.
Please ALWAYS talk to a medical doctor first! Don't take a chance with permanent damage to your nervous system!
CTS has nothing to do with joints. It's a Repetitive Stress Injury (RSI) of the soft tissue around your wrists, especially the finger flexor tendons and the fascia and nerves there.
I never had it so I can't contribute. What I do have every now and then is Achilles tendinitis/tendinosis. There's an easy fix for that: Heavy weight training. I wouldn't be surprised if that applied to the wrist too.
thegodmovie.com - watch it
Doing these quick little exercises a couple times a day helps out a lot.
* Tap each finger with the thumb of the same hand. Repeat five times.
* Alternate tapping the palm of your hand and the back of your hand against your thigh as quickly as you can. Repeat 20 times.
* Open your hands and spread your fingers as far apart as possible. Hold for 10 seconds and repeat eight times.
* Fold your hands together, and turn your palms away from your body as you extend your arms forward. You should only feel a gentle stretch. Hold for 10 seconds and repeat eight times.
* Fold your hands together, turn your palms away from your body, and extend your arms overhead. You should feel the stretch in your upper torso and shoulders to hand. Hold for 10 seconds and repeat eight times.
I had once hard pains in right fist and got used to handle the mouse with left hand, but soon the pains also came to left hand (in a week or 2) but I found out that using a very tiny mouse (like this one: http://www.targus.com/us/product_details.asp?sku=PAUM01U but I think this has low quality button switches ) the fingers don't need to be so high and cause much less discomfort.
So I always asked myself why there are almost no flat mouses on shops (I know of one with a PCMCIA card, but I din't want to be so extreme:)?
Right now I use 2 mouses (one on each side of the keyboard) connected via USB and I use both whatever I'm more pleased at each time a hand leave the keyboard:)
If you sit up straight and don't type literally non-stop all day long with your hands in a weird position, you'll be fine.
The people who have problems are doing some extreme activity, like non-stop typing -- or they're simply pre-disposed to carpal tunnel syndrome in the first place!
If I'm not mistaken, carpal tunnel is about connective tissue like tendons or whatever.
So, when the article asks the reader whether or not computers are the cause of problems with joints, I hope nobody thought, "yeah, it does": the idea that the minute pressure you put on the bones in your fingers and arms are causing problems with your joints cause a problem is ridiculous. Your spine from bad posture could be hurt. However, that's not a consequence of computer use, it's a consequence of bad posture.
Myself, my two sisters: all within a five-year window in age, and all able to type but not typing regularly.
Within the same two-year period, we all get jobs that require a significant amount of typing on computer keyboards, hours a day (me as a word processor, they as a receptionist/secretary and research librarian respectively.)
One sister develops pain in her wrists, but elects to work through it and says everything's fine. Over a period of months, it gets worse, and she has to stop typing because the pain is too great. Eventually the doctors diagnose it as carpal tunnel, and despite various forms of treatment being tried, nothing works. It's been more than ten years, and she still can't type; she still can't lift a book by the edge with one hand, in fact.
Other sister starts to develop similar pain when first sister is much further along in her pain. Initially she pushes through the pain, too, but seeks treatment when our older sister is diagnosed with carpal tunnel; she is diagnosed with tendonitis, given exercises and such to do, and she also changes jobs to one requiring a lot less typing. Her pain goes away eventually, and she's fine.
I start to develop pain just before my second sister is diagnosed with carpal tunnel, so I start taking typing breaks and go to great pains (no pun intended) to ensure that my typing posture etc. are correct and non-damaging. My pain goes away almost immediately, and even though I still type extensively for a living more than ten years later, the pain never returned.
So based on this experience, I'm willing to say it at least contributes to the problem, but that posture and other elements related to the physical activity being performed are significant contributors as well.
Less than one percent of smokers die of lung cancer. 90% of lung cancer is caused by smoking.
About twenty percent of smokers will get COPD (chronic bronchitis and emphysema). 90% of COPD is caused by smoking.
Most people will not get lung cancer or COPD no matter how much they smoke. It is very likely those affected have some sort of susceptability triggered by smoking.
These situations are exactly the same. And newer journal articles do not agree with this blogger.
Maybe not, but smoking causes lung; tennis causes elbow; and cholesterol causes artery. Too much sodium causes blood-pressure. Too much sun causes skin.
This bad editing is giving me a head.
Touch typing causes carpal tunnel. Period.
You think-typists (as opposed to touch-typists), hold out your hand and bend it at a 90-degree angle like touch typists do and wrap rubber bands around your finger so you only reach four keys at a time. Now try to get work done. Hurts, doesn't it? Duh!
1/2 glass Pure pineapple juice + 1 heaped tbl spoon turmeric (spice)
The pineapple juice helps the body absorb the curcumin in the turmeric which reduces inflammation. Hold your nose while drinking it though as it tastes like bad dirt. It is also good for inflamed joints. YMMV
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
I thought for the longest time that I was developing Carpal Tunnel. Arm pain, sore shoulder, hand hurts... ect. One day a friend on mine that was going through massage school did some work on it for me, I felt the best I had in 5 years! She said it was commonly diagnosed as Carpal Tunnel by doctors and laymen, but that the signs I exhibited, and that she treated for was actually .
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
I had a lot of problems with the mouse as well. I don't use it a lot as it is, but I went back to a trackball after about 9 years of using a mouse.
The one that I linked is quite ergonomic and keeps the hand in a more natural position. I haven't had any problems since getting it. The only annoying part was getting used to using my fingers to move the trackball instead of the thumb (my old trackball was a thumb-type) but now I'm past that I won't use a mouse at home again.
When starting uni, a few weeks into my first term I started getting pains in my wrists & arms. Went to see the nurse, prescribed painkillers, didn't really help. Before uni I spent hours and hours on a computer without any issues at all. Turns out it was the twisty gears on my bike - changed them to the the thumb type and my problems went away overnight. Maybe I just have strange wrists, no one else seems to have a problem with the twisty gears...
95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
About 10 to 15 % of the population has an inherited or acquired genetic defect that interferes with their Porphyrin metabolism, and it's touching plastic that causes so-called carpal tunnel syndrome.
Plastic really is toxic to a certain percentage of these individuals because they can't metabolize it as rapidly as those without the gene defect.
About 8 years ago I started using thin cotton gloves for the mouse and typing, and it stopped my diagnosed carpal tunnel syndrome COLD!
I switched to glass containers for all my food and drink, and use gloves when handling extension cords (all containing extremely toxic compounds).
And I still do all manner of so-called repetitive motion activities, and I have ZERO "carpal tunnel" problems now.
Some handy linkage:
If it don't GO... chrome it. ~ Frank Banks
My wrists yell at me not to believe this study. I'm serious, and actually right now that I type this I'm in pain.
I personally got CTS after moving to a new office and seeting up my desk in a manner that I thought would be more comfortable. My thumb & index finger got numb. Since I re-optimized my chair/keyboard angle I dodn't need a fancy ergonomic anything.
So... Computer use doesn't cause the problem... Bad arm/body geometry combined with repetetive motion will cause the problem no matter what the task, and I would bet it will cause it for anyone. It may take a higher rate of repetitive motion for some people depending on their muscle/tendon geometry, but it will eventually bother anyone subject to enough motion.
Keep passing the open windows...
Ya know, I have to agree. I'm 40 now, and going on my sixth surgery due to nerve problems in my arms (both wrists and now both elbows -- twice). My surgeon, aside from buying a new boat, is convinced it's a genetic problem, rather than work related. He thinks my nerves are just a little too short. So they get stretched too easily, and like a rubber band, eventually wear out.
I'm convinced it has more to do with how people sleep than anything else. I sleep with my hand curled up under my face, which just contorts the nerves just a little too much. If you wake up with your hand asleep, you're probably doing it. You can adjust how you sleep with a wrist brace, or an elbow pad turned around on the inside of your elbow.
I'd also like to bring everyones attention to cubital tunnel syndrome. Carpal tunnel messes up the thumb, index and half the middle finger. Cubital does the other two and half fingers. The surgery is much worse. Basically, they have to move your funny bone to the inside of your elbow. That involves cutting at least one muscle in half, moving the nerve and reconnecting the muscle halves.
I tell all the people who work for me, as soon as you start feeling symptoms, go in and get it checked out. Try the physical therapy, cortisone shots, whatever. The surgery isn't fun.
2) Learn to mouse left-handed at work. Do this for 2 months straight. ONLY switch when it starts to hurt. Then stay right-handed. And so forth. Mousing is an additional strain on whichever arm is using it. Think of it as rotating your tires.
3) For casual home use (surfing, clicking on music/video), get a trackball. Hand in lap is much less work than reaching which hurts your upper arm after awhile. Trackballs are great, but not for FPS, or doing real serious work. But anything you can do to not reach.
4) Put keyboard in lap. This is how it's meant to be. No reaching!
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
SPEED
Game #1: you click a bit, read a bit, mouse a bit, repeat (the average questing game)
Game #2: you click very rapidly and non-stop (e.g. galaga, 1941 or the moronic boxing/kung fu games) for hours on end.
Game #1 doesn't affect anyone. Game #2 can definitely get you some RSI.
QUANTITY
Boxing game #1: rank n00b plays for 30 seconds, then spends a minute starting the next...third...nth game.
Boxing game #2: pugalist extraordinaire plays consecutive 10 minute matches for the same length of time.
Boxing game #1 only lowers your I.Q. Boxing game #2 will move you closer to RSI symptoms.
RESULT
Basically, speed kills. Pity the touch typers. And quantity kills. Worst case is a fast typist who does hours and hours of it per day. But not occasional spurts of fast typing. Things like data entry, or hours of cmd-line typing by someone who knows what they are doing (to use one of the scenarios that caused my RSI). I aggravated my RSI when I spent hours per day using a $50k network simulation software (CAATS & MAATS) that was ported to NT from unix, the result being that it didn't work well with the keyboard so I had to mouse around in a highly repetitive fashion -- my first joint of my index finger has yet to fully recover.
I come here for the love
The article isn't signed: it has as much scientific value as an Anonymous Coward post.
Funny how we can't check out the author to see if he (or she) is really a shill for the workers' comp insurance companies, not unlike the shills for Exxon who deny that the planet is getting warmer.
Ever been to a trial of a personal injury case? There are plenty of orthopedic physicians who will, for a buck, testify that Joe Plaintiff wasn't really crippled, or even hurt, in the accident that totalled his car.
The shill orthopedists live in great, big houses up on the hill.
You're right, GP is WAY high... but the "less than one percent of smokers" number is way low according to government statistics.
According to the US Gov the "lifetime risk", any random person's chance of getting lung cancer before s/he dies, is about 7% max. Getting it is pretty much a death sentence though, as less than 1 in 5 will survive after five years.
The Dana Reeve case pointed out to pop culture that you can get lung cancer without smoking. Roughly 10 percent of men and 20 percent of women who develop lung cancer are non-smokers. Assuming a roughly even split between men and women, we'll say 15% of lung cancer cases are non-smokers. That means the other 85% of that original 7% have smoked at some point in their lives... Let's round that to 6% of lung cancer cases are smokers. Knowing that about 20% of the US population smokes... that gives us percentages of people who will develop lung cancer before death:
not if you use a Wacom tablet http://www.wacom.com/index2.cfm
I find that my wrists start to hurt if I put the feet on the back of the keyboard up - it forces my wrists to bend backwards, which they don't like to do. My piano teachers always stressed keeping the forearms up and letting the fingers curl down naturally; if I do something like that at the computer keyboard, I find I don't have wrist pain.
I've suggested this to a number of coworkers, and it has reduced their wrist pain in most cases. Obviously your experience is different... people's bodies can vary considerably.
My other favorite workstation ergonomic discovery is a using a trackball instead of a mouse. This lets me make all those tiny little precision movements with my fingers, which are good at that sort of thing, instead of with my forearm, which seems to be better at larger, less precise motions. This keeps my forearm from cramping up during long computing sessions.
My truck is like a series of tubes.
... what you are doing with your other hand will make you go blind!!!
Have gnu, will travel.
In my opinion, this study is 100% bogus. I'm sure the mouse and pad is responsible for my carpal tunnel problems. Some mice/pad combos place more pressure on the canal of nerves and bones than others. I don't care what this "study" says. I've been in the business for over 20 years and I've saw 1st hand the damage that keyboards/mice can do and no bogus study can convince me otherwise.
Why are people acting like the studies in 1991/2 can't be valid?
Just because they weren't connected to a monitor, typewriters have existed for many decades.
I don't think they are any more "ergonomic" than current computer keyboards. Point being, why did CTS suddenly become this dire disease that everyone was worried about just now in the last 10 years? People have been typing hundreds of words per minute for at least the last 60 years.
Further, there are many many jobs in manufacturing that required repetitive movements. Why don't these repeated movements cause CTS?
I've worried on and off about CTS since I first heard about it in the late 90's. I've been typing > 100wpm since I was 14 and using a computer > 10 hours/day since at least 1995. I've never had any symptoms, but these studies do reduce my concern over the "cause" of CTS.
Whenever I get into a new FPS on my computer and click a lot with the mouse, I notice that after a week the back of my mouse hand is incredibly sore, especially when trying to click. Then I stop for a week and the pain goes away. This happens to me EVERY TIME I start up with a new game. It sucks. I have never gotten sore hands from typing though... and I am a developer. But don't even try to tell me that over-use of a mouse doesn't lead to problems because I know from my own multiple experiences that it does.
Meh.
I work in IT all day, then come home and use the PC all night, taking breaks to play video games.
I have all kinds of brutal RSIs mostly in my wrists and elbows. I have never had carpal tunnel syndrome though - go figure. I guess I just don't hold my hands like that...
I don't know if I have cts, all I know is that for the last 15 years of my life the only things I've done are eat, sleep and use a computer. My hand gets numb, I get pain in it and the wrist, my fingers tap mouse buttons on their own. Whatever that is, it's caused by being on a computer. If that's cts then these doctors need to try doing more research.
CTS is caused by the compression of the "tube" the tendons move within. If you have a badly adjusted chair height and thus aplly too much pressure on your fore-arm on the desk edge, you'll get problems. Adjust your chair, keyboard distance, mouse distance such that you don't have much pressure being pressed on the bottom of your wrist and fore-arm and you'll find any "RSI" discomfort won't be as bad (or present at all!)
Interesting--I guess food stamps and corn subsidies don't exist in your fantasy world?
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
It certainly does for me.
Long stints of programming (or dare I say, WoW play... hours upon hours upon hours) absolutely causes forearm and wrist pain/tingling for me.
So, pardon the low intellect phrase, but "DUH!". WTF. It clearly does. Those who don't use computer nonstop rarely suddenly develop such pains, but those of us who do often do.
File this under "Contrarians because it's the _in_ thing to be."
.sigs are for post^Hers.
This is clearly a right wing neo conservative study, probably financed by large computer and keyboard manufacturers or front organizations. The science is settled. Denialists like this are very dangerous to the future of our joints, and our children's joints. How are guys like this going to face the next generation? What will they say when our children ask us, what did you do when our elbows were at risk?
Are they going to sit there grinning sheepishly with their bandaged elbows and say, well, I waited till all the facts were in? No, they are going to hang their heads and have to admit that when all the facts were in, and the science was settled, the debate was over, they were Denialists, they cast doubt on whether the catastrophe was really heading for us. And now look what has happened. A whole generation has grown up without fingers or elbows that work! 95% of the population is no longer able to use a knife and fork!
These people are Dangerous. They probably deny evolution. They probably think cigarette smoking doesn't cause cancer. They are evil. Slashdot is part of the problem by giving them airspace. We need to move to action, now. Ban the manufacture of keyboards of any sort, and make it mandatory to use voice input devices. Like, do it next month, before its too late!
I have had severe wrist pain from computer use for about a year. After a few weeks of it I went to my doctor. He did some tests, and said that is was carpal tunnel syndrome. Whether his diagnosis is accurate I do not know; all I know is that my wrist hurts very badly quite often, normally forcing me to stop and not work for a few minutes at best.
If there's anyone I hate more than stupid people, it's intellectuals.
They do, as does medicaid.
Profit is totally fine when a person has alternatives. If I really wanted to, I could produce all my own food/clothing/shelter....people have been doing it fine for 1000's of years. Even today, entire groups of people in the US choose to do that (i.e. Amish). The difference is when someone says 'I have to means to save your life with a simple pill (or procedure, or routine surgery, et al). All you have to do is pay me 30% of your yearly income. No, you can't make payments, and no you can't go to a cheaper competitor, and yes you will need to get this treatment over and over again or you will die'.
Well can't you just share your science with us? We can make our own treatments? 'Oh no,' they say 'we have shareholders to answer to'. The hell?
And regarding unions, they have helped to provide liviable wages and humane working conditions for their members. But once those goals are met, the union basically exists for its own sake. When Boeing (across the street from me) goes on strike because the company wants them to pay $35 a month to cover their $1000/mo in healthcare costs...the whole time crying about how this a 'crime against the American workforce'...it's pretty apparent to me the union(s) have lost their way.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Your logic runs in circles to rationalize the outcome you are looking for: for-profit healthcare is bad, other for-profit endeavors are not. Central to your latest point seems to be the idea that a drug company should give away the "science" which they just spent money discovering, developing and testing. If not for the chance of a return on investment, that money WOULD NOT BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Sure, one could make a system solely dependant on altruistic donors for research money. Go ahead and start seeking donations for yours. Our system is much better funded and more productive, as it generates prosperity from a force much more powerful than altruism... for lack of a better word: greed.
Patents are good for 20 years, and drug testing usually chews up 10 of those, leaving just 10 to recoup costs and only then, if the marketplace demands your new drug, make a return. Innovation is encouraged by awarding patent protection to inventions, and prosperity is spread to all through the expiration of those patents in a free-market economy which benefits the most efficient producer.
I call BS that you can make a shelter anything like what our for-profit system can sell you at a price you are willing to pay. You could make a hut. If you are gifted you could make a log cabin. You could not make a modern house, especially not with the modern comforts (fridge, A/C, TV) all provided by FOR-PROFIT industries.
I call BS that the Amish "live that way." When the native americans encountered the militarily superior europeans, they lost everything. The amish are freeloading on national security provided by sophisticated weapons funded by taxpayers. Freeloading isn't "producing your own."
Innovation and subsequent efficient production are both necessary to maximize prosperity. A system that rewards innovators and efficient producers necessarily leaves the others unrewarded. The rewarded can shop for fantastic creations, while the unrewarded are left to their jealousy. In some, jealousy is motivation to develop marketable skills and the loop is closed. In the others, jealousy leads to socialist rhetoric.