Making a Buck Online - Without Ads

A New York Times article hosted by C|Net looks at the unique position of the Consumer Reports website; they're one of the few online resources that gets by completely on subscription fees. They have no ads. One key seems to be valuing their online readers as much as their print readers - and charging both the same amount. "The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times tried charging for some online content, then abandoned the practice. For a decade, however, Consumer Reports has charged Internet readers the same price as print subscribers, currently $26 a year (or $5.99 for a month's online access or $45 a year to get the magazine both in print and on the Web). While the rest of the industry sees print readers as more valuable--because advertisers do--Consumer Reports actually makes more money from readers on its Web site, because it avoids printing, trucking, and mailing costs."

Comments

Reputation counts too

[Titoxd]

And Consumer Reports also has a reputation of not screwing people on both ends, so its clients are more than willing to pay for the content, be it in print or online. It just shows you the power that good ethics can have.

Re:Reputation counts too

[jotok]

Oh, it's not ONLY their ethics. The information they provide is truthful and valuable. People will pay for "data."

News articles, on the other hand, are essentially stories. I like to read them, but I read them with my morning coffee on the couch. Newspapers nowadays have lost their reputation for relevance and timeliness (typically by chasing ad revenue with sensationalist stories rather than by doing real investigative journalism) and so while they are interesting and amusing, they are not worth paying for.

Subscription journals, on the other hand, I will still pay for, just like I would pay for Consumer Reports.

Re:Reputation counts too

[Titoxd]

Aye. Moreover, Consumer Reports is in an enviable position, as their comparisons allow people to save money, be it by getting a cheaper product, or by not spending on an overpriced piece of junk. As a result of these long-term savings, the consumer sees that CR provides value to him or her, and any company that has a product that is perceived as valuable has a captive market. I know I would think, "If this magazine can save me money any time, it might be worth the purchase price."

Re:Reputation counts too

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, french consumer association (www.quechoisir.org) has same business model (monthly subscription fee, no ads).

People trust the online version because the paper version had an excellent reputation for
many years, and archive content IS of great value, unlike newspapers, which archives are
only of interest for very few people.

Re:Reputation counts too

[Fozzyuw]

The information they provide is truthful and valuable. People will pay for "data."

Exactly. I signed up for CR online when I was looking to buy a new cars in 2006 (and still had it when I bought another in 2007). To find the right car for me I spent the $30 to help read up on the cars I was interested in. It helped. I was able to read up on the past history of the cars, like the Toyota Corolla, and find it had a long history of excellent reviews. I was also able to knock a few cars off my list, like the Chevy Aveo, which had a recall in 2006/7 (I forget what year). Despite both cars having similar gas milage, the Aveo was a much smaller car (something my fiancee, who's French, felt more comfortable with given her European cars) with not as good reviews. In America, given the average size of a car is much larger, I felt safer with her having a slightly bigger car and she's adjusted to the size difference, given that roads here are also much larger.

That small amount of money I wrote off as part of the cost of a proper new-car purchase. And what's $45 when you're spending $15,000? However, I have no reason to continue until there's some other big name purchase I want to do so I canceled. I'll pick up their magazine at the gym when I see one laying around. I also found it more difficult than expected to cancel my account with CR.

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:Reputation counts too

[SL Baur]

Reputation counts most.

There fixed that for you.

Consumer Reports also has a reputation At one time or another, I've subscribed to all three of the dead tree versions of Consumer Reports, LA Times, and NY Times.

The LA Times makes good fuel for burning Korean-owned stores the next time there's a riot. The NY Times has the world's finest daily Crossword Puzzle. Consumer Reports is a balanced, fair survey of products for sale and is sold at a cost below the value of the information you get in return if you're making a major purchase.

The article is garbage. The LA/NY Times aren't worth the paper they're printed on. The online versions don't offer anything substantial beyond that. Consumer Reports is quality stuff. Ads or no ads, and Consumer Reports cannot be supported by advertising in any fashion whatsoever and keep its reputation, it's a comparison between apples and raisins.

Re:Reputation counts too

[foo fighter]

For the record, I've never had any problem canceling. Just called their 800 number, told the operator I wanted to cancel, was transfered to a nice young woman who simply asked me why I was canceling for quality improvement purposes, and turned it off.

I do get the occasional email, maybe three times since canceling last year, asking me to re-subscribe.

Re:Reputation counts too

[The Raven]

What's your opinion of The Real News? If you haven't heard about it, it's a guy who used to make documentaries brainstorm. He wanted a news network that was not beholden to government money, corporate money, or ads... only subscriptions. He estimates that if they get 200,000 subscribers, at $10 per month, they can operate a news network that's broadcast quality, with several hours of new daily programming.

It's worth checking out. A very similar ethos to Consumer Reports... only the subscriber matters.

Re:Reputation counts too

[Fozzyuw]

For the record, I've never had any problem canceling. [...] I do get the occasional email, maybe three times since canceling last year, asking me to re-subscribe.

I never had a problem canceling, but (like I said) I found it more difficult than expected. I expected to just log into my online account and find a some sort of "big red cancel me" button. Something akin to canceling your membership to an online game such as WoW. What I did find was a few clicks to find out I had to call in to cancel my online account. Ok, I can join up online, but I have to cancel through the phone? *shrug* I expected it to be easier given this was CR.

Though, it was a real simple and easy phone call to cancel through the phone without any hassling "trick questions" to keep your account or attempts to 'guilt' you from canceling. There's no problems canceling your account, just that it's more difficult than I would have expected given it's an online membership.

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:Reputation counts too

[msromike]

I have found their reviews to be blatently biased. What else do you call it when the manipulation of weighting of obviously trivial features brings a certain product to the top of the list?

Re:Reputation counts too

[jotok]

Isn't this just a difference of opinion about what's important? If you can point to an example, what would you say might be more important features for a product?

Re:Reputation counts too

[DarkVader]

I blame CR for the lack of choice in car instrumentation. They had a VERY strong bias toward analog instruments, and the much more readable digital ones got the shaft.

I don't want a needle pointing to numbers, I want the numbers.

A Gamespot subscriber's story

[Besna]

Even before the whole Kane & Lynch thing with Jeff, they managed to annoy the paying subscribers with an ad for the game to "make your own INSANE trailer". I suppose some adblock would get it, but it's in a place where some interesting stuff can be (like tournaments). When I pay, I want all the ads gone! Kuro5hin had the same problem.

Re:A Gamespot subscriber's story

[Anonymous Coward]

Even before the whole Kane & Lynch thing with Jeff, they managed to annoy the paying subscribers with an ad for the game to "make your own INSANE trailer".

Ok so there is some kinda of adware involved with Kane & Lynch. Could you fill us in on the rest? And BTW who is this wanker Jeff?

Re:A Gamespot subscriber's story

[abecede]

You do know how search engines work? Try a Google search for "Kane Lynch Jeff" and you can even feel lucky.

Re:A Gamespot subscriber's story

[QuickFox]

Note that the GP comment is about Gamespot, not about Consumer Report. See the comment title. Just in case you're like me and often skip the comment title.

Consumer reports MUST be standalone

[LiquidCoooled]

Of all the websites, consumer reports (and in the UK; Which) must be seen as totally seperate from the products they are reviewing.
How good would it be if this edition of Consumer Reports (and its special report on Car safety) was brought to you in association with Ford?

Re:Consumer reports MUST be standalone

[the_humeister]

Why very good, what with all this Ford stock I just bought!

Re:Consumer reports MUST be standalone

[antic]

FWIW, the Australian equivalent (also without advertising) is Choice Magazine: http://www.choice.com.au/

Content helps too

[The_Fire_Horse]

and once the reputation is established, if the content is good then I will pay for it no matter what format it comes in (and the web is certainly the easiest)

Independence

[proudfoot]

But consumer reports cannot feature ads like other papers, because it must be, uniquely independent, of the products it reviews. Other newspapers do not necessarily have to be independent.
While it would be nice if others were, I think I prefer paying less, and reading some ads.

Re:Independence

[AuMatar]

Agreed that they truely need independence. DIsagree on prefering ads- I'd pay 5x what I do for any of my newspapers/magazines/radio/TV to get it ad free. I've stopped buying newspapers and magazines entirely due to ads- I only read online ones, with extensive ad blocking.

Re:Independence

[nbauman]

Agreed, for a different reason.

I would rather pay money for useful information than get useless, biased, advertiser-influenced information free. I pay $100 a year for the Wall Street Journal, and about $600 a year for a bunch of science and professional magazines, because I want solid information, not the same AP or Reuters story 35 times over on Google News.

My time is too valuable to waste reading junk (with the possible exception of Slashdot).

Re:Independence

[SanityInAnarchy]

I'll agree that paying less (and reading some ads) is preferable to paying more (and avoiding ads), if that's all there was to it. For instance, sites that offer a subscription service to avoid ads just make me turn Adblock on.

However, independence has the implication that they are not being paid to say something. Now, some of the things CR says make me wonder if they're either paid to say it, or are complete morons. But the idea is what counts.

Today, I had a long talk with my dad about what he does. I'd been talking a lot about my new job, so I wanted to hear more about what he does. His company -- two corporations, actually, so they can legally do both stocks and commodities, but it's the same people -- they're, well, a financial company. As in, you can bring them a big pile of money, and they'll invest it, and you get to involve yourself at varying levels. One of the things that came out in that discussion was, he provides two options for payment -- either a commission, or a yearly payment.

Well, he recommends the yearly payment, even if it might (sometimes) cost a bit more. It's better for him, obviously, because the company then gets a stable income in the form of regular checks. But it also provides some assurance to the customer that there's never any motivation for a trade other than because it will benefit the customer.

That is, if there's a commission, a broker might encourage a lot more trades than the client wants or needs, because it generates commissions. If there's no commission, you'd think it encourages doing less, to avoid work, and that's partially true. But it also means that the motivation for everything they do is to make money for their customers, so they stay customers, and because of how powerful word of mouth is in that industry.

So yes, I would pay for Consumer Reports, and I'd pay more for that independence. Except that after reading their articles on various software, I'd never be able to shake the feeling that they were screwing me over with their other recommendations -- that their car recommendations, for instance, might sound as laughable to a mechanic as their software recommendations sound to me.

Re:Independence

[AaronLawrence]

sites that offer a subscription service to avoid ads just make me turn Adblock on.

What?! Why? If they offer you an ethical way to remove ads and provide them with payment for the service, you specifically try to avoid using it? Makes no (ethical) sense.

Re:Independence

[NMerriam]

that their car recommendations, for instance, might sound as laughable to a mechanic as their software recommendations sound to me.

No doubt they would. Does it really surprise you to think that a professional auto mechanic would have different priorities in their car purchase than a typical suburban housewife who doesn't know where the dipstick is? Does it really surprise you that the typical slashdot reader has different priorities when evaluating software than the typical AOL user? It doesn't make their evaluations or recommendations wrong, it makes them not appropriate for every person on Earth, which I don't think CR would ever claim they were.

Re:Independence

[SanityInAnarchy]

What?! Why? If they offer you an ethical way to remove ads and provide them with payment for the service, you specifically try to avoid using it? Makes no (ethical) sense.

Ethically, why am I obligated to view their ads?

Now, I do have a rule about Adblock: I don't download anyone else's list, I build my own. And I don't block any ads that don't animate, I don't even care if it's a static flash ad. But as soon as they animate, they're gone.

Re:Independence

[SanityInAnarchy]

No doubt they would. Does it really surprise you to think that a professional auto mechanic would have different priorities in their car purchase than a typical suburban housewife who doesn't know where the dipstick is?

I wouldn't ask a professional auto mechanic about the kind of car they'd buy. I'd ask them whether the car I was looking to buy was a good car.

Does it really surprise you that the typical slashdot reader has different priorities when evaluating software than the typical AOL user?

It's not about priorities. Recommending Windows Vista to the typical AOL user? In what way is that a good idea? What priorities would you have to have for that to ever be a good idea?

It doesn't make their evaluations or recommendations wrong, it makes them not appropriate for every person on Earth, which I don't think CR would ever claim they were.

I am arguing that if their evaluations or recommendations are not appropriate for any person on Earth, they are, in fact, wrong.

Re:Independence

[NMerriam]

I wouldn't ask a professional auto mechanic about the kind of car they'd buy. I'd ask them whether the car I was looking to buy was a good car.

Then it sounds like you're right in line with CR, that's their point of view as well.

It's not about priorities. Recommending Windows Vista to the typical AOL user? In what way is that a good idea? What priorities would you have to have for that to ever be a good idea?

It's a good idea if they're buying a computer today that they expect to have supported by all their new hardware, software, and services for the next 5+ years.

Re:Independence

[jlarocco]

I'm not sure how useful it would be, though. Consumer Reports doesn't use advertising because they need to be impartial. Subscribers have to pay, but they get the guarantee that Consumer Reports isn't selling out. But most online newspapers would still be selling out to advertisers, they just wouldn't be showing the ads to subscribers.

Given that, I'd rather get the news for free and use ad-block.

Re:Independence

[SanityInAnarchy]

Then it sounds like you're right in line with CR, that's their point of view as well.

So what professional did they ask here?

It's a good idea if they're buying a computer today that they expect to have supported by all their new hardware, software, and services for the next 5+ years.

You're assuming that Vista will be better than XP at some point in the next 5 years, or before they buy their next upgrade.

In other words, you're assuming it isn't the new Windows ME.

Re:Independence

[NMerriam]

So what professional did they ask here?

They don't ask a single professional, they do even better and evaluate vehicles primarily on overall mechanical reliability as documented over the model lifetime, as well as manufacturer's overall reliability, average cost of repairs, maintenance intervals, etc. That's what any responsible mechanic would do if he had access to the same data.

You're assuming that Vista will be better than XP at some point in the next 5 years, or before they buy their next upgrade.

I'm not assuming anything, we know for a fact that new Vista-only hardware features and software are shipping or in development, and that will only become more common as time goes on. If someone wants to stick with XP on a new system, they'll not be totally left out in the cold for a while, but they'll be a more future-proofed with Vista.

The only assumptions being made here are by you, that your (or my) personal dislike of Vista amounts to anything more than pissing in the wind. MS is basing future Windows development on that system, and until that changes, like it or not, 3rd party software and hardware will follow, and that's all Joe and Jane Consumer care about. Any non-ideological generic computer recommendation would take into account what system offers the best likelihood at future compatibility.

Re:Independence

[SanityInAnarchy]

I'm not assuming anything, we know for a fact that new Vista-only hardware features and software are shipping or in development, and that will only become more common as time goes on.

And what do you suppose will happen to that if consumers flat-out refuse them?

Do you see any ME-only stuff?

If someone wants to stick with XP on a new system, they'll not be totally left out in the cold for a while, but they'll be a more future-proofed with Vista.

Which is, as I said, an assumption.

Now, I do hope that Microsoft fixes Vista, and that everything you've said comes true. But it is too early to tell.

The only assumptions being made here are by you, that your (or my) personal dislike of Vista amounts to anything more than pissing in the wind.

Personal dislike is one thing. Outright defectiveness is another.

Example: Microsoft's HD-DVD Interactivity Jumpstart does not work with Vista, and does not work with Windows Media Player 11. It does, however, require a minimum of Windows XP and Media Player 10. I therefore had to install XP on my brand new work Vista laptop, very first thing.

What about if the centrefold claims

[barocco]

that this car maker takes serious actions on Monday/Friday car workers and the car will be a vintage collectible much sooner than any other makes on the market?

Curious

[Oddster]

Why point to the C-Net version of the article when the original article is freely available online here?

Re:Curious

[Aluvus]

Because CNet does make its money from ads ;)

I've always wondered about ad effectiveness

[Weaselmancer]

Exactly how effective is online advertising anyway? How many of you have seen an ad for something on a web page and thought "Fantastic! I must click this."

My brain just edits them out anymore - it's the white noise of the internet to me.

Re:I've always wondered about ad effectiveness

[wizardforce]

indeed that is if you even see the ads. between noscript and adblock, there's no such thing as ads unless you actively disable the ad blocking features of both which normally you wouldn't want to do in the first place. noscript isn't just good at stopping ads at the source there's also a security element to it. the thing is that a lot of ad-supported sites use the same domains as sites you couldn't give a ---- about and the only way to support one site and not another using the same ad-source domains is to temporarily allow it every single time you visit that site. never mind most of the ads don't even bother you anyway if you have a lot of tabs open or don't click/buy anything from them anyway so its not very effective as it is... of course they could always start creating ads that actually make noise so that you can't just ignore them without banning them outright and there's the problem right there. annoying ads and security problems force a lot of people to block *all* ads and now there's no way for the sites to make money off ads that way. not to mention Google would be fubared entirely in this respect if ads got annoying enough and there goes their business plan.

Re:I've always wondered about ad effectiveness

[CSMatt]

I'm sure you could just search for a study. I'd be surprised if there wasn't already at least one out there.

Re:I've always wondered about ad effectiveness

[mrjb]

How many of you have seen an ad for something on a web page and thought "Fantastic! I must click this." Mostly when they were relevant ads showing up next to my search results. Showing up at the right place, at the right time, with my mind in the right context. I must say, Google got it right.

Re:I've always wondered about ad effectiveness

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the first things they taught us in marketing class is that repetition is used in marketing as a way to induce acceptance and compliance in the target (public/consumers) for the projected message. Repetition may not cause immediate action but it does implant the message to the subconscious where it can be triggered later.

Also, messages that cause anxiety, even revulsion, can become more palatable with enough repetition.

BTW. It is a proven fact that those people who think advertising doesn't really affect them are actually more prone to manipulation than average.

Re:I've always wondered about ad effectiveness

[jdjbuffalo]

That's how I see it as well. Unless an ad is flashing or moving to get my attention, I almost never notice it. When I do come across one of those ads I navigate away from the page as fast as I can.

I've probably only clicked on a handful of ads in the last 7+ years and at least half of them I clicked on because I was actively looking for a product and a website to sell it to me.

micropayments

[lobiusmoop]

It is 2007, where is the ubiquitous micropayment scheme we were promised? (and I dont mean PayPal). If such a system existed, I think a lot more websites would be making a lot more money than at present.

Re:micropayments

[Anonymous Coward]

It is 2007, where is the ubiquitous micropayment scheme we were promised?

Because now all of online payments are tied into your personal credit card and personal info. With identity theft, malware/spyware, etc., people are very leery about putting in a credit card number at every other website. If there was an anonymous credit/debit card with a 10 dollar value, people would be more inclined to pay 50 cents here and there for some extra content. If it was compromised, you be out 10 bucks, and that's it.

Do you want to screw around with your regular credit card and have some scumbag get your whole identity?

Re:micropayments

[Wormholio]

Because now all of online payments are tied into your personal credit card and personal info. With identity theft, malware/spyware, etc., people are very leery about putting in a credit card number at every other website....

Discover Card lets you generate one-time credit card numbers which can be used anywhere, but once used can then only be used for purchases at that vendor and nowhere else.

Re:micropayments

[Kaenneth]

It's not worth it to the transaction processing companies.

I called T-mobile to complain about the 15 cent charge for a text message, which they sent to confirm they activated the phone; my real reason for calling was to test their customer service quality within the 15 day return period, but I was also annoyed that they would incur an extra fee during the activation process; it was automatically credited back by the time the bill came...

But, how much money does a Customer Service call cost them?, how much would a micropayment only company spend to support a 5 cent transaction?

I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

[F34nor]

When I read by "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" Maya Angelou I got one thing out of it; you have to be rich to have an opinion. This is why we pay for content from Consumer reports, to make them rich enough so they can have a real and honest judgment about things we buy. This is also why they can afford to make sure no one uses their opinion as an endorsement, they don't want to be soiled by the petty filth of capitalism.

Re:I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

[MollyB]

they don't want to be soiled by the petty filth of capitalism. Unless they've got their hooks in you. I signed up for a one-off inquiry on some merchandise (HDTVs). I had problems getting UN-subscribed and luckily the credit card I used was expiring. It's been ten months or so, and I *still* get email from them saying please come back. Ha.
I offer this as my experience only.

Re:I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you should try using the 'unsubscribe' link that is included in every e-mail.

LOL @ Retard.

Re:I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I'd click it. Charge kept showing up on my CC invoice, anyway. I stopped LOL-ing quick, chuckles.

No ads, how about no registration?

[ThreeGigs]

The telling point in the article for me was the implication that leveraging their internet presence took them from losing 7 million a year to being 28 million in the black.

I remember being frustrated at researching a purchase, only to find links to CR articles which I couldn't access. Sans web, I'd have forgotten about CR, or if I remembered, might not have bothered subscribing because the information I wanted was in a back issue, and libraries are free.

What I'd really like to see is a study or report on ad revenue changes based on a site switching dropping required registration, like the NY Times did.

Well, DUH!

[houghi]

For newspapers the advertisers are their customers. Those are the ones who bring in most of the money. For Consumer Reports, the consumer is the customer.

So all in all what has been proven is that businesses do is look at their customers for income. The time has long gone that the consumer was the newspapers customer.

And...

[Anonymous Coward]

..., because it avoids printing, trucking, and mailing costs."

And the website can be kept more up to date.

I thought so...

[SanityInAnarchy]

I thought so, too. Then I read this review of the EEE PC. I was with them right up until this bit:

For more advanced tasks, consider getting a full-fledged laptop with a dual-core processor, 1GB of RAM, and Windows Vista.

First, what does "more advanced tasks" actually mean? I could use an EEE PC for programming, ssh access, and, I'm sure, many other things that this reviewer has never heard of.

Second, and most important: Why the fuck are they recommending Windows Vista? I was curious, so I found this other page, with these gems:

Windows Vista offers an array of improvements over XP aside from visual enhancements, new multitasking features and simpler home-network setup....

And, of course, no mention of the downsides -- of why you'd want to keep XP. (Well, there's a sort of casual mention of "If Vista does nothing for you, you can still buy a new PC with XP", but no mention of the insane number of bugs that still exist in Vista.)

Microsoft offers three versions of Vista

No, it offers four.

Mac OS is considered by many to be easier to learn and use than Windows, and it's more secure against online threats because it's less of a target for malware writers.

Not to bring up the old debate again, but the fact that there is a debate is worth some mention, at least, right?

Linux, a free operating system with source code anyone can modify, is most appropriate for users who aren't intimidated by technology.... The only things you won't find are sophisticated 3D games.

Doom 3 isn't sophisticated? What about the new Unreal games?

Or did they mean "sophisticated" in the artsy/intellectual sense? As in, say, Neverwinter Nights, Neverball, Wesnoth, and the like?

I'm not claiming the situation is good for Linux gaming. But to claim there are no sophisticated games for it, even if we're all willing to ignore Wine/Cedega, is factually untrue. By "factually untrue", I mean it's in the realm of 2+2=5. Even for very large values of 2, that statement is wrong, and always will be.

You'll need additional software to access other file formats such as MP3 or iTunes.

No mention that it's free and easy to download/install this software. Oh, and it does seem to support mp3s out of the box.

As for Linux, you'll need more than just a casual knowledge of operating systems, because the interface is not entirely graphical.

That's a nonsensical statement. It's "not entirely graphical" in the same way that Windows and OS X are -- I can still run cmd.exe or Terminal. If they mean that you may occasionally have to do things with the commandline, well, that's also untrue -- and they must know this, having used Ubuntu.

If all you do is Web browsing and e-mail you can probably get by, but if you use a wide variety of applications, you're better off passing on Linux.

If all you do is Web browsing and e-mail and word documents and finances and web development and education and PDF reading and listening to music and creating music and putting music on your iPod and basic camera and photo scanning/editing and CD/DVD burning and scanning/OCR and Skype and instant messaging and IRC..... *inhal

Re:I thought so...

[Joe Jay Bee]

So, wait, they're bad because they recommend a product you don't like for an audience you don't identify with, and don't recommend your OS of choice.

Just because you think Linux/Mac should be mentioned in glowing praise next to every mention of Vista doesn't make it so. The point of Consumer Reports is to review things, not advertise the competitors to those things.

Re:I thought so...

[Joe Jay Bee]

And sorry to reply to my own comment (mea culpa) but since when did "Independent" automatically mean "Hates Microsoft"? Some people independently like and recommend Windows. I hate this attitude if they recommend everyone buy a Mac Mini/install Linux they're free-thinking individualists, but if they recommend a cheap Dell with Vista they're being bribed by Microsoft.

Re:I thought so...

[tepples]

The only things you won't find [on a GNU/Linux system] are sophisticated 3D games. Doom 3 isn't sophisticated? What about the new Unreal games? Perhaps the reviewer just wasn't a fan of first-person shooters or M ratings. How well are other genres and ratings represented on Linux?

Re:I thought so...

[PopeRatzo]

Some people independently like and recommend Windows.

Yes, but not Vista. The one decent point the GP makes is that if a "pro-consumer" organization recommends Vista, it either means they have not done their homework or they are getting a little taste from Microsoft. I think Consumer Reports is a useful magazine, but they occasionally get a little bit sloppy. If they in fact recommended Vista (and I have not verified that with my own eyes) then this is such a case of them being sloppy.

To be fair, I rarely use Consumer Reports for anything having to do with computers or software, because I can get more reliable expert opinions elsewhere.

NOTE: I'm offering this comment based upon my personal experience with Vista (I eventually went back to XP) and my interactions with hundreds of computer professionals whose opinions I have come to trust. I do not hate Microsoft. I might hate Steve Ballmer, but mostly because he is a sweaty friggin' maniac. I do love how he dances to "Safety Dance" though.

Re:I thought so...

[mrhartwig]

I grew up reading Consumer Reports, and I've always been very impressed with their methodology & analysis of their test data for almost everything. Want to know which microwave meets its published wattage? CR is the way to go. Want to know which tires actually perform to their published specs? -- CR. Want to know if Zune battery life is as MS says? etc, etc, etc,

Except for computers. As another child poster says, they're writing for a different audience than the typical /. reader. I've no idea who evaluates computers for them, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's some Engineer -- not the train or Civil kind, but certainly not the computer kind either. They don't really know the state of the industry, and they come to many conclusions I think are in error.

But said error is only from my prospective as a Computer Geek, and as a professional who's programmed, supported, and cursed at computers for 30 years. From the standpoint of my Biology Geek father or my Teaching Geek wife -- both very knowledgeable in their fields, too -- CR's evals are fine. And since I'm the family Computer Guy anyway, what CR says in that area really doesn't matter.

No one organization can be expert in everything, even CR. Except, of course, /.

Re:I thought so...

[Moralpanic]

This is CONSUMER Report, not PROFESSIONAL Report. I always read the same complaints from enthusiasts in whatever they review. If they review speakers, the audiophiles comes out and say how wrong they are. When they review Plasmas and LCD TVs, the 'experts' comes out and say where they went wrong.

Re:I thought so...

[billcopc]

Go hide under your rock, Troll.

We may not agree with their exact choice of words, but to the Average Joe, an EEE PC is a cheap little gimmick that can't run Windows. In Joe's concrete mind, PC = Windows, and Windows = Word, Excel and Powerpoint, because every school, library and internet cafe has those apps; even Dell will offer to preinstall Office when you buy a PC. Joe thinks it all comes as a package.

The CR columnist probably didn't want to go into bumpy territory like installing XP on an EEE PC or other unofficial things, so he/she chose to say "If you want Windows, buy something else". CR is not a tech journal, it is read by all sorts of people, dumb/smart, techy/artsy. It's not their job to teach every monkey how to install an OS, their job is to talk about saving money and avoiding scams.

Re:I thought so...

[Joe Jay Bee]

Yes, but not Vista.

Why? Lots of people on Slashdot are willing to come up and state they like Vista, and while I personally don't use it I have used it in the past and could find nothing overtly objectionable about it. So, I'll ask again: why, when discussing Vista, does the concept of independent thought cease to exist, and instead anyone saying anything positive gets labelled as being paid by Microsoft? The article is from Consumer Reports, for christ's sake, widely held as putting independence and integrity above all else; so why the sudden turnaround? Because they recommend something you don't like for nebulous reasons?

Your post seems to be more about that; you don't agree with them, so it's "sloppy". Right.

Re:I thought so...

[billcopc]

As much as I'd love to see more games released on Linux, it's simply not going to happen overnight. Even Macs get the shaft, and they're ahead of us in the waiting list.

Instead of waiting for those half-assed game developers to throw us a bone - they can barely get they filth to run on an ideal-spec Windows machine - I'd rather see more work invested in compatibility layers (like Cedega, but preferably non-commercial). I just don't expect a DirectX coder to have any skill with Linux gaming; it's like asking a line cook to design a 3-storey house.

Re:I thought so...

[cecil_turtle]

Then they shouldn't sell themselves as "experts" if every true expert in a subject matter says they're wrong (which, as you point out, is pretty much the case).

If I want CONSUMER opinions I'd just go to epinions or amazon or cnet or wherever and read reviews. The idiotic reviews are easy enough to sort out and you get a better feeling for the quality / performance of a product from people who have actually used it for the same purposes that you intend to use it, rather than somebody who just plugged a device into a meter.

Re:I thought so...

[edumacator]

No one organization can be expert in everything, even CR. Except, of course, /.

Have you ever seen the threads about women around here?

Re:I thought so...

[edumacator]

I think the point from the GP post is they can't get bogged down in the minutia because it isn't important to their audience.

Their goal is to provide useful reviews for most people. For the /. crowd, if they said x computer is better than y, we might balk, bringing up benchmarks and other tests that don't mean much to the average user. Most users don't care if their data gets processed in one millisecond or two. It generally wouldn't matter in their game of solitaire.

As for Vista, I've had issues when trying to connect and configure the plethora of devices I use, but my mom's printer and digital camera both connected fine, and as far as she knows, those are the only devices you can connect to a computer.

Re:I thought so...

[Mongoose Disciple]

I'm a computer professional, and my Vista box has been my most trouble-free Windows machine yet. To read Slashdot I would've thought it was the OS equivalent of a burning paper bag full of dog crap on my doorstep, but surprisingly my experience with it's been great.

Granted, I waited until 6 months or so after the launch to get it.

I don't see a compelling reason for most people to move to Vista, but I haven't experienced a compellign reason not to yet either.

Re:I thought so...

[NMerriam]

Then they shouldn't sell themselves as "experts" if every true expert in a subject matter says they're wrong (which, as you point out, is pretty much the case).

There's a difference between experts who make recommendations for other experts, and experts who make recommendations for casual users. CR has never pretended to care about anyone other than the average person looking for a good deal. I have yet to see any criticism of CR in the past decade (other than clear factual mistakes that CR corrected) that didn't boil down to someone's ego being hurt that CR didn't endorse their particular preference.

I have yet to meet a REAL expert in any subject matter who didn't recognize that CR was correct in their recommendations, given their target market. There are plenty of "enthusiasts" out there who claim to be experts and insist that everyone needs gold-plated Monster Cables.

Re:I thought so...

[Shining Celebi]

I'm a computer professional, and my Vista box has been my most trouble-free Windows machine yet. To read Slashdot I would've thought it was the OS equivalent of a burning paper bag full of dog crap on my doorstep, but surprisingly my experience with it's been great.

I'd just like to add I had the same experience. I had to buy a new laptop, and at the time all that I could get on the laptop I wanted was Vista. So I bought it, fully prepared to install XP on it, mainly because of all the horrible things I had heard about it. Vista pleasantly surprised me. I actually like Vista; I haven't had a single problem with it, it's very fast (Kubuntu does boot faster, but applications in Vista open faster), everything so far just works, and yes, I've even adjusted to the UI to the point where I like it now.

Like the parent, I don't see any compelling reason for moving to Vista, but I don't see any reason not to either. I've gone from warning people against Vista to telling them it's fine to just go with it. I don't see any problem with Consumer Reports advising people to move to Vista, although I agree they should have been more fair to Linux.

Re:I thought so...

[SanityInAnarchy]

How well are other genres and ratings represented on Linux?

That's why I mentioned Neverball, Neverwinter Nights, and Wesnoth.

No genre is represented well, but even if they aren't a fan of the FPS, it's damned sloppy to ignore them, or to use such a vague term as "Sophisticated 3D games."

Re:I thought so...

[cecil_turtle]

I guess I mostly have a problem with calling anybody an "average consumer" - CR doesn't know what anybody's particular situation / preferences are. Their recommendations are based on some algorithm of quality/pricing/features/etc., but their balance never seems to be quite in line with what's important to me. And I'm talking about washing machines and such that I don't even really care about / know about.

So I end up throwing out their recommendations and just looking at the raw data to interpret it myself for my situation and preferences. But that raw data is available anywhere, and I find that 100 reviews on a review site by actual consumers who have used the product outside of a lab and for more than a week are much more useful.

Re:I thought so...

[SanityInAnarchy]

The CR columnist probably didn't want to go into bumpy territory like installing XP on an EEE PC or other unofficial things

And why not?

It's not their job to teach every monkey how to install an OS, their job is to talk about saving money and avoiding scams.

Isn't installing XP on an EEE PC a decent way to save money? Doesn't it at least deserve mention?

Who said anything about teaching them to install an OS, anyway? They certainly mention things like upgrading from XP to Vista without "teaching them" how to do it. Just mention that the option is available, and Joe will go find Greg the Geek to do it for him.

And that's completely ignoring the point that for many Joes, especially if they already have a Windows desktop, everything they want a Laptop for is easily covered by a default Linux install. Yes, I said default.

Re:I thought so...

[billcopc]

The day Linux is worth using for the average Joe, is the day I'll start rooting for it.

I'm not an MS fanboy, but XP gets the job done. If I could use my Linux desktop to do my work efficiently and without "mystery menus" whose feature has yet to be coded, then I would.

Right now, as a computer elitist (yes, a performance freak), I still see Linux as a rock-solid server OS, but a "toy" desktop, mostly because Xorg is still the backwards cesspool that X has always been. It's pretty sad when I have to say the NVidia-drivers package does more work for me than the actual Xorg configuration tools. Joe Random won't touch Xorg.conf with a ten foot pole, and neither should I under most circumstances.

What gets me is there are some really nice LiveCD distros out there with all the creature comforts like hardware detection, easy customization and intuitive prompts. Why can't the big disk-based distros follow suit ? We can't even get a decent package manager, save for Ubuntu's Single-Click Install.

Everyone likes to brag about their distro's unique features, but that's going against the spirit of open-source! What if I like Ubuntu's friendly desktop, but I prefer Gentoo's build system ? Why can't they play nice together ? Heck, most binary distros can't even play nice with custom-built packages without some major kludging.

There are many problems with Linux distros, some easy, some difficult. We need to get out of denial and start working on solutions. Linux can be awesome in the right hands, just look what Mac did with the outdated pile that is BSD. Linux can pwn that big time, but we need to stop inventing "yet another unfinished sourceforge project" and start putting our strengths together.

Re:I thought so...

[tepples]

That's why I mentioned Neverball If I want to have four players playing Neverball, how many PCs do I need?

Re:I thought so...

[NMerriam]

Yes, but not Vista. The one decent point the GP makes is that if a "pro-consumer" organization recommends Vista, it either means they have not done their homework or they are getting a little taste from Microsoft.

Yeah, sure, they must be either ignorant or on the take. Or, just possibly, it means that for most people, Vista is working just fine, and that if you are buying a new computer today and aren't a nerd, it is the best option to ensure new devices and software will be supported in the coming years.

Re:I thought so...

[White Shade]

Maybe part of it is the fact that while it does have problems, Windows Vista in fact is not the antichrist, and it does, in fact, work pretty darn well for a lot of things? Is it perfect? no. Is it easier for a regular average joe home user than linux? Yes. Is linux better for a lot of things? yes. But, is Vista going to go and rape your children and steal all your stuff? Slashdot seems to think it will, but really, it won't. It works, most everything nowadays works with it, and in many ways it's actually easier to use than previous windows.

So what's the problem with someone recommending it?

Re:I thought so...

[NMerriam]

Their recommendations are based on some algorithm of quality/pricing/features/etc., but their balance never seems to be quite in line with what's important to me.

Well, that's why they publish a whole article that goes with the recommendations. They don't just say "hey, everyone, buy this model", they detail why they liked one better than the other. Obviously if you have different priorities, then you won't agree with their conclusions, but the discussion still gives you a lot of information to base your own decision on, which is exactly what they intend.

So I end up throwing out their recommendations and just looking at the raw data to interpret it myself for my situation and preferences. But that raw data is available anywhere, and I find that 100 reviews on a review site by actual consumers who have used the product outside of a lab and for more than a week are much more useful.

I would doubt that 100 random consumers have access to the same "raw data" that CR generates by testing in house. Consumers don't verify the actual power consumption of a device, they don't have dozens of units side-by-side to say which is louder, which gets unbalanced easier, which has a more sensible control layout. They don't have access to years of reliability and repair rates (though some of that is reflected to a limited degree on some rating sites). You're talking about two completely different classes of information, both of which are important to any purchasing decision. Consumer Reports doesn't claim to provide user testimonials, and ePinions doesn't claim to do any real measurement, they just report whatever the manufacturer prints on the box.

Re:I thought so...

[NMerriam]

Isn't installing XP on an EEE PC a decent way to save money? Doesn't it at least deserve mention?

To the average computer user? No. It isn't supported, and most computer users need a 1-800 number to call when something goes wrong.

Re:I thought so...

[Kaenneth]

Microsoft offers three versions of Vista
No, it offers four.

There are 6 Editions, Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, Ultimate, Starter and Enterprise.

Or, if you consider x64 versions to be a different version. (no 64 bit Starter)

Plus the 'N' Editions, for some countries. Making up to 21 possible Editions for a given country.

Re:I thought so...

[Random Destruction]

And then there are just as many of us who have had terrible time with vista. My aunt got a dell that came loaded with vista. She has a hard time reading the screen, so first thing I did was increase the text size. Apparently that requires a reboot. On the fourth attempt at booting, it decided not to lock up, and I got back to the interface. Everything was ugly and I couldn't move any window more than 2/3s across the screen. There was an invisible wall. So I set the text back, and rebooted again.

Then I went to copy her mail form outlook express to windows mail. I moved the proper files over from the other computer, and loaded windows mail. I pointed it to the files, and it spat out "file in use, or wrong file type" or some other such BS. I tried saving the DB in different formats etc. Eventually I discovered that what this error really meant was "Windows mail can't import user data as a user. Please re-run this program as administrator" why the fuck couldn't they just say that?

My experience with that box has continued in a similar vein. The computer is as slow as her old box, yet has 4 times the memory and at least that many times the processing power. I find it simply inconcievable anyone could run this OS.

That aside, people do. Smart people too, so there must be more to this equation. I'm not really sure what it is, but this polarized opinion is confusing.

Re:I thought so...

[SanityInAnarchy]

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Besides, what, exactly, is the problem with saying "You can do this, but it's not supported?"

What, are they trying to save money per word downloaded?

Re:I thought so...

[SL Baur]

That aside, people do. Smart people too, so there must be more to this equation. I'm not really sure what it is, but this polarized opinion is confusing. http://counsellingresource.com/quizzes/stockholm/index.html

I expect to be modded down, but you deserved an answer.

Re:I thought so...

[SL Baur]

Their goal is to provide useful reviews for most people. Yeah, sad as it is for me to say that. To name a recent example in my memory, how many errors are there in the South Park episode "Make Love, not Warcraft" even though they worked closely with Blizzard to make it? The last local news TV clip about my workplace that I appeared in wasn't completely factual either, not that I had any say in it :(.

Maybe someone can explain why reality always has to be "prettied" up to me someday. I despise TV and TV mentality.

Re:I thought so...

[NMerriam]

It's not supported by the OEM, genius.

I don't think in the history of CR, they've ever recommended anyone install an OS other than what came on the system as shipped by the OEM. Most people don't ever install anything other than the OS that shipped with the box.

Re:I thought so...

[SL Baur]

The day Linux is worth using for the average Joe, is the day I'll start rooting for it. For mail and internet that day was over a decade ago.

(With apologies to Joseph Heller ...)
Hello Ma'am, I'd like to purchase a computer without an operating system or running Linux.

I'm sorry Sir. We can't do that. You must buy a comuter with Microsoft Windows on it.

Why is that? I don't want to run Microsoft Windows? Besides it should be cheaper for you to provide me with a computer without any software licensing involved.

I'm sorry Sir. We can't do that. There's a catch.

A catch?

Yes, Sir. Catch-22. We are not allowed to sell any computers without Microsoft Windows already preinstalled.

But I don't want to run Microsoft Windows!

Yes, Sir. Sorry, sir, but I am required to sell you a computer running Microsoft Windows.

Even though I do not accept the EULA and do not wish to purchase a Microsoft Windows license, and will delete the software the first chance I get, I'm still required to buy one any way?

Yes, Sir. That's the catch, Catch-22 as I explained to you before.

Re:I thought so...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not an MS fanboy, but XP gets the job done. The only place where I've known that XP really "gets the job done" is getting my rocks off in front of the Windows Media Viewer and my favorite pr0n. Say, what was your address again?

Re:I thought so...

[Lord Flipper]

To be fair, I rarely use Consumer Reports for anything having to do with computers or software, because I can get more reliable expert opinions elsewhere.

You hit the nail right on the head there. That's the critical fact that these guys wasting resources with their attacks, oops, I mean arguments, are missing, totally. I wouldn't go to CR for info on anything that I either already thought I 'knew' about, or had access to more in-depth comparisons, regarding.

But for info on something I'm not aware of for the most part, it would be invaluable, and could give even the researcher-types out here a point of departure for further hair-splitting, or whatever.

I run Apple at home (a couple of G4 laptops), but have worked in Solaris and Windows environments, and my present job is running a small Windows server-based network, but I would recommend an iMac (on the low end) for the new 'average' (email, online buying and bill-paying types) user, based on ease of use, relative security, hardware quality, etc. But a real gamer? Ha ha, water-cooled powerhouse box with DirectX-10, of course. I'm not a gamer, but you go with the right tool for the job, and make suggestions based on the user's expressed needs. Period.

Re:I thought so...

[cthulhu11]

I've occasionally read through CR's computer articles and indeed have found them to -- religious preferences aside -- display a fundamental lack of understanding what the heck they're talking about. I didn't expect otherwise, though. I stopped subscribing years ago, though because their articles were increasingly useless for even commodity goods -- A/V equipment, appliances, etc. By the time they put together an article and print it, their top picks are often already discontinued. They also tended to review lots of crappy low-end models of things with no mention of the range that I'd actually buy, or are only available in the New Yuck region where they seem to purchase from gray-market dealers. With cars, the reliability figures are useful, at least, though I remember them having absurd practices, eg. downgrading a model for not having rotary climate controls. I've occasionally picked up an issue since and browsed it, and nothing seems to have changed.

Re:I thought so...

[PopeRatzo]

I don't see a compelling reason for most people to move to Vista

That's my point. A pro-consumer magazine that recommends Vista is encouraging them to upgrade. If there's no compelling reason to upgrade, and it costs hundreds, that's not really good for the consumer.

Re:I thought so...

[theantipop]

While there are valid concerns with bugs in Vista, as your anecdote illustrates, I find it amazing how people magically forget the troubles there are with every other OS in this regard. I've yet to use Vista, and I find XP, OSX and Ubuntu all incredibly stable operating systems, but I'd be remiss to point out the times I've had all three crash or exhibit unwelcome behavior.

That said, I'm refraining from installing my MSDN licensed Vista Business because of horror stories from users with Nforce 4-based motherboards.

Re:I thought so...

[SanityInAnarchy]

It's not supported by the OEM, genius.

Then you should've said that, moron. No, it wasn't implied.

I don't think in the history of CR, they've ever recommended anyone install an OS other than what came on the system as shipped by the OEM.

Except they are now talking about Linux.

Most people don't ever install anything other than the OS that shipped with the box.

I thought CR exists precisely to inform "most people" about other alternatives, and specifically, help them choose the right alternative?

Re:I thought so...

[Mongoose Disciple]

I'll admit I didn't read the context. If it's telling people with existing XP machines that they should run out and buy a copy of Vista to install on those machines, I wouldn't agree with that. If it's telling them that if they're buying a new machine, it might as well have Vista, that makes sense to me. (It doesn't make sense for some people, but those people probably don't need to read Consumer Reports for an opinion.)

Re:I thought so...

[DarkVader]

I find myself wishing I hadn't used the last of my mod points 5 minutes ago.

That certainly deserves to be modded UP.

Re:I thought so...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure if you're a troll, an astroturfer, or an idiot, but I am sure it's one of the three.

Ripple

[Stentapp]

It comes when Ripple http://ripple.sourceforge.net/ reaches critical mass.

Stick it to the Customer?

[zotz]

Is there another reason to charge as much for the online version as for the print version when, admittedly, their costs are less for the online customers.

If I were an "about to commit" customer, and I have thought about becoming one recently, this would put me off, I would like a good share of the savings passed on to me.

One simple solution:

Print subscription comes with (either a CD version or) an online account, online version is stand alone.

I am sure there must be better possibilities. But if they're happy...

all the best,

drew

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[domefreak]

Why do you assume that publications are priced on a cost-plus basis? At any rate, you're only addressing the marginal cost of production; most of their costs are probably in the research and writing of the articles. Since they're selling information, and not paper or pixels, the value to customers is the appropriate basis for pricing. From that perspective, the online version is more valuable, since it's constantly updated, searchable, and organized by category rather than date.

If they were making a higher margin on online subscriptions but pushing people to print subscriptions because there was greater perceived value, they should decrease the price of online subscriptions to increase profits. But the article indicates that there is little overlap between the two audiences, and an individual's choice of print or online is largely based on what medium they're comfortable with. Most likely, the two subscriptions are priced equivalently so that customers *don't* think they are getting scammed: there is one price for the information, and you can have it delivered however you prefer.

If you think they're "sticking it to you" then go do the research on your own for $26/year (or wade through the print subscription if you think it's a better deal), but I am happy to pay for my online subscription even though I only log on every few months to look for a specific piece of information.

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[zotz]

"Why do you assume that publications are priced on a cost-plus basis?"

Why do you assume I assume that? I don't.

But as a customer who is also a business man and who comes from a couple generations of the same, I can decide where to take my business based on the parameters I decide on.

Their pricing model would sway me not to do business with them. Do you take issue with my right or any other potential customer's right to use such information in making their buying decisions?

I do not take issue with yours. It is your money, spend it as you see fit.

all the best,

drew

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[azrider]

Is there another reason to charge as much for the online version as for the print version when, admittedly, their costs are less for the online customers. If I were an "about to commit" customer, and I have thought about becoming one recently, this would put me off, I would like a good share of the savings passed on to me.

Ok, how about $10 per month, but you can only access each article once?

Now would you be happy? The benefit for the online customer is more content, more timely content and you can access it from anywhere.

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[Solandri]

Is there another reason to charge as much for the online version as for the print version when, admittedly, their costs are less for the online customers.

If I were an "about to commit" customer, and I have thought about becoming one recently, this would put me off, I would like a good share of the savings passed on to me.

The print version gets you dead trees issues which last as long as the dead trees last. But only the issues put out since you subscribed.

The online version gets you access to their database of past reviews. I consider it a heckuva lot more valuable than the print version (both in the amount of information, and the time it saves me not having to look it up individual issues in the library like I did in high school). You're making the mistake of assuming market prices should be production costs plus a flat fixed percentage, no other factors involved. Economics doesn't work that way. Market price is a combination of how badly the producer wants to sell it, and how much the customer wants to buy it. Sure their production costs for the online version may be lower, but I perceive the value of the online version to be (much) higher. So the economics of it supports a (relative to production costs) higher price.

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[7grain]

I am a subscriber of ConsumerReports.org.

To answer your question, Yes. Convenience. When you Subscribe to the print edition, you have no access to back articles. They typically update their reviews of any given item every 2-3 years, to reflect new trends and features. (Electronics, more often, sometimes as often as every 6 months).

So when you get the paper subscription, you find yourself hording the magazines so you have the historical reviews, in the future. In the meantime, you have no back catalog until you accumulate one.

With the online edition, you have instant access to the most recent review of everything they've ever reviewed. So, for example, if you need to buy a new coffee maker, you might have to wait a couple years to get reviews in print. If you have the online service, you've got your info immediately. No pile of magazines, instant gratification.

I suscribed online initially to get reviews for mattresses - when you're going to spend $1000 on an item that the manfacturers intentionally make difficult to comapre, you want help from disinterested experts. I kept the subscription because instantly I found it useful for every purchase over $50. Short list: coffee maker, burr-style coffee grinder, 5-disc DVD Player, High Def TV, Mattress, digital camera, tires (oh yes! the tire reviews are GREAT), webcam, front-loading washer & dryer, lawnmower, in-home gym, toaster oven, humidifiers, ... god the list goes on and on. Every time I make a purchase, it's great to know in advance that I'm not buying a lemon. I bought CR recommendations for every one of those items and I'm happy with every single one. Once you have it, you never want to give it up!

Even if you aren't ready to buy, they have "buyer guides" that break down features so you know what you're looking at. This is really helpful with electronics, like digital cameras. How many people thought about shutter speed when they bought their first digital camera? Nobody. It's a non-issue when you're used to using film. But The difference beween SLR (0 seconds), fast digital (.5 seconds), and slow cheap digital (2+ seconds) is tremendously important when you have little kids who won't hold still for a pose. CR breaks down the shutter speed of every camera they review. If that's what you care about, you can zero in on what you need.

There are some things for which I don't like their reviews: Cell phones, computers, automobiles. I find the reviews too superficial for complicated items like these. Although the 10-year track record for automobiles is helpful.

I'm out!

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[jlarocco]

I think you're going about it all wrong.

You should be asking yourself "Is the information they provide worth $xx a month to me?" If it is, sign up. If it's not, go with someone else. The only reason they charge what they do is because it's worth it for so many people. They don't have an obligation to "pass the savings on". Especially not when enough people are willing to pay the current price.

That's not Consumer Reports "sticking it to the customer", that's just the way businesses do things.

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[zotz]

"Ok, how about $10 per month, but you can only access each article once?"

Why in the world would you go for that deal? I wouldn't. Does the print version come with any such restriction?

all the best,

drew

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[zotz]

"You're making the mistake of assuming market prices should be production costs plus a flat fixed percentage, no other factors involved."

Where did I ever make any such claim?

"The print version gets you dead trees issues which last as long as the dead trees last. But only the issues put out since you subscribed.

The online version gets you access to their database of past reviews."

Here you make a good point which might make me reconsider the deal. Congrats, the first one to try and make a case based on a benefit to me. That is who the Free Market figures I will consider when making my purchase decisions after all.

On the other hand, if I get the print version, I have it as long as I choose to keep it. What protection do they give should they close up shop or change the terms on past article access?

all the best,

drew

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[zotz]

"I think you're going about it all wrong.

You should be asking yourself "Is the information they provide worth $xx a month to me?" If it is, sign up. If it's not, go with someone else."

I will decide who to do business with based on what I like thank you very much.

I might very well chose to not go with the guys providing the best deal because I know they are jerks or I know they are actively trying to ruin my community or any other number of reasons besides the simple is this the best price I can get for this item and is this worth it.

One type of people I try to avoid is people who try and stick it to me. If I judge this to be a case of that as far as I am concerned, I will possibly choose to not take the deal. Or if I do take it, I might be ready to jump ship at the first decent opportunity.

You, of course, are free to make your buying decisions based on your metrics.

all the best,

drew

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[zotz]

Well, I must say, you do the best job of making a case why I should take the deal they offer.

In your estimation, the online deal is more valuable than the print deal? Do you see any drawbacks vis a vis the print deal?

all the best,

drew

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[jlarocco]

Don't get me wrong. I don't really care how you make purchasing decisions. I was just pointing out that they're not "sticking it to customers", because most customers don't feel entitled like that. I probably didn't need to be so condescending about it, but too late now.

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[zotz]

Not a problem. Never too late, and if I came across to sharp, please don't think it was intended that way.

I also understand that these guys are seen by many as the good guys. Fine. I understand that a lot of people like to tell others how business operates. Well, business men can operate how they like within the bounds of the law, but a Free Market takes buyers as well as sellers. Us buyers have a say in the game as well.

We don't have to put up with shoddy treatment while there exist alternatives. And even if there should be no alternatives due to some mucking about with the Free of the Free Market, we can do without non-necessary things. I know that may sound odd in this day and age, but it is the way things are.

We can say what we will buy and what we will not buy as well. It is then up to the sellers to figure out if they can make a profit providing what we want.

all the best,

drew

Re:Stick it to the Customer?

[7grain]

Sorry I took so long to reply; I forgot to check my posting. :)

I'd consider it a personal preference. I don't subscribe to any magazines because I don't like having a house cluttered with them. I like to read. I love magazines in waiting rooms. But when I subscribe, I hold on to them until I've read every article that interests me, and then I fall behind in my reading sometimes, and then I next thing I know, I have a pile of unread magazines that fees like an obligation, and I begin to resent them because I'm reading magazines all the time instead of books. So to me, the online version is more valuable. I can read the articles if it's a slow day on Slashdot, but I usually just hit their website when I need to make a major purchase. It happens often enough for me that $26/year is a better deal that starting and stopping a subscription at $6/month. Although I should point out that when I first signed up, it was $24/year or $4/month.

I should also say that I grew up with the print edition. My parents have been subscribers to the magazine since before I can remember, and I'm 38 now. I LOVE reading it. The format of the magazine is great and the articles are great. I wish that I could download a PDF version of the print edition each month. The website seems to have all the same articles, just that they're not in journal format. Online, it's more like a heirarchical structure based on item categories. So if you're into home electronics and reading about those online, it's unlikely that you'll see the cool articles comparing the effectiveness of insect repellents. When you have the print edition, you get a more complete picture.

My recommendation; try both. Buy two issues at the newsstand, and sign up for the month-to-month. It'll cost you $20 spread over 2 months and you'll know what the pros and cons are. Good luck!

Value Verses Papers

[roguetrick]

Some may consider Consumer Reports valuable and trusted, and thus will pay for their information online. On the other hand, papers lose the regional confines when the internet is thrown into the equation, and when there are so many sources for news, international, regional or otherwise, few would subscribe to a paper just to get their particular slant or editorials. That would mean something really unique had to be offered in order to justify paying via subscription.

Target group for review

[Per Abrahamsen]

> First, what does "more advanced tasks" actually mean? I could use an EEE PC for programming, ssh
> access, and, I'm sure, many other things that this reviewer has never heard of.

And neither has the intended target audience for the review (or for the EEE PC).

> I'm not claiming the situation is good for Linux gaming. But to claim there are no sophisticated
> games for it, even if we're all willing to ignore Wine/Cedega, is factually untrue. By "factually
> untrue", I mean it's in the realm of 2+2=5. Even for very large values of 2, that statement is
> wrong, and always will be.

It refers to the kind of games the self-declared gamers want to use a box for, rather than the kind of games the intended audience is interested in (flash games, solitaire).

The statement is factually untrue in the sense that "the world is round" is a factually untrue statement in the context of people who believe in a flat Earth (since, to the nerd, only a mathematically perfect sphere would qualify as "round").

Congratulation, you have discovered that consumer report is not written for nerds with autistic tendencies.

> this whole Slashdot article is about them making a buck online, so are they even nonprofit?

Yes, non-profit is a legal term that doesn't involve giving away stuff for free.

And "expert" can also refer to the ability to explain complicated stuff in terms ordinary people can understand.

Re:Target group for review

[SanityInAnarchy]

It refers to the kind of games the self-declared gamers want to use a box for, rather than the kind of games the intended audience is interested in (flash games, solitaire).

Self-declared gamers don't like Doom3 or Quake4? Self-declared gamers aren't eagerly awaiting the next Unreal games? And I know plenty of self-declared gamers that liked NWN.

There's a big difference between "Won't find" and "Won't find many". One is true, one is not.

The statement is factually untrue in the sense that "the world is round" is a factually untrue statement in the context of people who believe in a flat Earth (since, to the nerd, only a mathematically perfect sphere would qualify as "round").

I'll bite -- Earth is much rounder, in that sense, than a marble or a bowling ball (ignoring the finger holes), or really any kind of ball.

In the context of this debate, however, "the world is round" can actually be debated, if only semantically, but certain facts cannot be -- for instance, if you said "There is an edge of the world, where monsters live, and ships can sail off the edge if they're not careful", you'd be undeniably wrong.

Congratulation, you have discovered that consumer report is not written for nerds with autistic tendencies.

In which case, it should not be recommending Vista.

And who the hell is it written for, then? Should I be expecting similarly "expert" advice when I want to buy a car? Because, you see, I really don't want to buy the Windows Vista of cars.

And "expert" can also refer to the ability to explain complicated stuff in terms ordinary people can understand.

I can do that, too. Without also giving bad/wrong advice. (Yes, I see that article as both bad and wrong.)

Re:Target group for review

[NMerriam]

I can do that, too. Without also giving bad/wrong advice. (Yes, I see that article as both bad and wrong.)

If you think someone coming to you and saying "I'm a big gamer, what computer should I buy?", and you answering "Oh, you should install Linux, it plays all the cutting edge games!" is in any way NOT wrong or bad advice, I think we can all agree you're not anywhere near as competent at distilling advanced technical knowledge as you think you are.

Everything you've quoted from CR is correct. I'm sorry if you disagree with it, but that doesn't make it less correct. They don't have space to go into page after page of caveats and explanations for every summary they make, detailing all the thousands of caveats simply so that the average Linux user doesn't get his ego bruised. For the average suburban household, buying a Dell PC with Vista is the most optimal choice. Anyone who works with computers and normal users knows this. Sorry if you don't.

Re:Target group for review

[Random Destruction]

and you answering "Oh, you should install Linux, it plays all the cutting edge games!"

He never said that. What has happened to reading comprehension around here lately? It has really gone for the shits.

Re:Target group for review

[NMerriam]

Sorry, didn't know you were autistic, too.

Re:Target group for review

[SanityInAnarchy]

If you think someone coming to you and saying "I'm a big gamer, what computer should I buy?", and you answering "Oh, you should install Linux, it plays all the cutting edge games!" is in any way NOT wrong or bad advice, I think we can all agree you're not anywhere near as competent at distilling advanced technical knowledge as you think you are.

This is what's known as a strawman argument.

No, if someone came to me with that question, I'd suggest building their own, or buying a Dell (NOT Alienware), and putting XP on it. But people don't come to me with that question, they come to me with questions like "So I hear you're into Linux, should I use that for myself?" And the first thing out of my mouth is not "yes", but "What do you use a computer for?"

If, at any point, they mention some Windows-specific program, or that they're into gaming, I'll point out that they are going to need Windows, so the best they can hope for is dual-boot.

Actually, the most frequent question is "Can you fix my computer?" Second most frequent is "How do I stay secure online?" And while it's unlikely that I'll answer that without mentioning Linux, it's also unlikely that I'll recommend they switch -- I just let them know that if they do decide to switch, I'll be willing to walk them through it.

They don't have space to go into page after page of caveats and explanations for every summary they make

Bullshit, this is the Internet. Even if they don't have space, they can link back to Wikipedia or something. But like I said, I wasn't looking for "page after page". I was looking for some simple accuracy -- things like "Most games won't work with Linux."

simply so that the average Linux user doesn't get his ego bruised.

That one's an ad-hominim attack, right there with your suggestion that I'm autistic (I'm not).

I develop HD-DVDs for a living. The very existence of my current job, and company, is dependent on Microsoft, and I have not, yet, been able to use Linux at work, even as a VM host -- nor have I spent a ton of time trying. I am not, by any means, a zealot.

For the average suburban household, buying a Dell PC with Vista is the most optimal choice.

Even if you're arguing Windows is the most optimal choice -- and I don't even want to get into that tired flamewar -- are you actually deluded enough to think Vista is a better choice than XP for those users?

Re:Target group for review

[Random Destruction]

Yeah, I also pointed out that the gp (ggp now) didn't actually say those things. He told me I was autistic.

I think the dude is just trolling

Re:Target group for review

[yincrash]

While I'm depressed to say it, Vista actually is the best choice for gaming (even above XP), because while annoyingly so, Microsoft made DirectX 10 only work on Vista, and DX10 makes games look better if the system supports it (fact).

Re:Target group for review

[NMerriam]

Linux is not for gamers, you didn't like the way CR phrased that assertion, even though you know it's true. You're arguing, making huge extrapolations about CR's reliability, based entirely on a semantic quibble that ever the Rain Man would find tedious.

Re:Target group for review

[WNight]

For the average suburban household, buying a Dell PC with Vista is the most optimal choice. Anyone who works with computers and normal users knows this. Sorry if you don't.

But that's totally wrong. Who's going to support that Windows box for Mr and Mrs Average Suburban Household?

If they browse much at all that thing's going to be hip-deep in viruses unless they've got third-party programs for defense. It won't do *anything* out of the box. You'll have to spend hundreds of dollars for those third-party programs I mention, or muck around with finding trial versions and keeping them up to date.

Now how are they going to edit a photo? MS Paint? Photoshop? That's close to a thousand dollars. Paintshop Pro or off-brand? You might as well learn Gimp if you're going non-standard.

Office apps? Well, it'll view some word processing docs (in Word Viewer, ick), but not spreadsheets or presenations. You'll have to buy another set of programs ($350+ for a non-crippled version of MS Office). Or, again a different version for less, if you research it. But then, why not Open Office?

Sorry, but I'll have to flunk you on this one. You've speced a computer that's not safe to plug into the internet, and doesn't contain applications people want.

You mean to compare these items

Vindows Vista + Professional Installer + Apps + Regular Maintenance
vs
Ubuntu

Keeping my mom's computer working used to be a pain, through '98 and 2k, but then I switched her to Ubuntu a few years back and haven't had any problems. No viruses, easy remote config, working browser, working office suite, image editor I can walk her through. The only snag has been cheap printers.

No, the advice to buy a Dell with Vista is about the worst advice you could give someone. This is what consumer reports should be warning against. If you buy that lemon your computing will suck. People who can properly maintain the Windows PC are not reading Consumer Reports to buy a PC, so it's pretty much guaranteed to be the worst advice.

If you recommend Vista to a non-pro, recommend they never plug it into the network. Anything else is a sick joke.

What's wrong with PayPal?

[babbling]

Why don't you mean PayPal? It seems to be the most logical choice. The only problem I can see with PayPal is that it sucks for small payments since there is a flat fee even for amounts close to $0.

Re:What's wrong with PayPal?

[pyite]

The only problem I can see with PayPal is that it sucks for small payments since there is a flat fee even for amounts close to $0.

And that is the problem! Why would I want to pay for something if half of it's going to go to PayPal?

Gouging online readers

[SirGarlon]

Consumer Reports actually makes more money from readers on its Web site, because it avoids printing, trucking, and mailing costs.

So it costs less to serve online readers, but they charge them the same? Sounds fair to me. Or something.

Re:Gouging online readers

[cecil_turtle]

Exactly, technology is supposed to make things cheaper. I would never pay the same amount for CR online as for print, assuming I even though CR did a good job at reviewing anything. It's the same reason I don't sign up for any e-bills - credit card companies, electric company, etc. all want me to switch to an e-bill which saves them money but offers no benefit to me. Screw that, keep sending the paper statements until you pass some savings along to me.

Re:Gouging online readers

[ferd_farkle]

Consumer Reports is selling a service perceived as having material, immediate value. 'The News' can be had from a gazillion [more or less beholden to advertisers] sources. Impartial information they will base monetary decisions on in the near term is information people with pay for. As a VP of Consumer Reports said, "It's not like we're a stroke of brilliance"

Re:Gouging online readers

[Anonymous Coward]

Look up "gouging" it doesn't mean what you think it means.

They are offering a service. Does it matter if you get it in print or on the web? Poster above said that a $30 subscription helped him buy the right $20k car, which seems like a bargain as he got a lot more out of it than he put in.

PayPal Virtual Debit Card

[tepples]

If there was an anonymous credit/debit card with a 10 dollar value, people would be more inclined to pay 50 cents here and there for some extra content. I think PayPal already has disposable debit card numbers for those of us who use Microsoft Windows.

Soma FM is another site that is ad free

[Dr. Tom]

http://somafm.com/, the very cool internet radio site, is also completely ad free, and entirely user supported. Of course, there are links to amazon, etc., for every song, so of course the content itself can be considered advertising for the artists, but that's as it should be.

Seems like reasonable advice.

[tkrotchko]

"First, what does "more advanced tasks" actually mean?"

That's pretty clear.

What CR is saying is that if you're smart enough to ask that question, then you should get a better laptop. That is pretty self-evident.

Theit advice is decent for people who are not knowledgeable about computers. It's like if you were buying a washer/dryer. You might not know much, so you just want honest advice that will suit you, not cost too much, and not get you a piece of junk.

If tht's not worth $20-40 a year, I don't know what is.

Re:Seems like reasonable advice.

[SanityInAnarchy]

What CR is saying is that if you're smart enough to ask that question, then you should get a better laptop. That is pretty self-evident.

Which also seems dead wrong.

You see, I have a much better laptop, and I'm still wanting an eeepc.

Theit advice is decent for people who are not knowledgeable about computers.

Except they recommend Vista.

Re:Seems like reasonable advice.

[tkrotchko]

Actually, if you look at their ratings, they recommend Macintosh as their top choice, but it is a reality that the vast majority of people use Windows, and so they would be remiss if they didn't recommend a good laptop to work with Windows.

For the average person who shops at the local Fry's, takes work home, would like to use a browser, email, etc etc, and doesn't want to spend a lot of money, what do you recommend as a good choice? Keep in mind, it has to be able to be purchased from Costco, Circuit City, Best Buy, etc, and you have to be able to get support either locally or via the manufacturer direct. That means a laptop at about $700. Give it your best shot.

Re:Seems like reasonable advice.

[SanityInAnarchy]

For the average person who shops at the local Fry's

And why, exactly, can't Consumer Reports recommend shopping online?

what do you recommend as a good choice?

EEE PC, or the very same laptop you were going to suggest, but with XP. It's not that they recommend Windows, but that they recommend Vista.

Cooks Illustrated

[midimastah]

It would appear that the America's Test Kitchen people have adopted this business model as well, selling the content from their magazines on the web with some additional web-exclusive enticements. I can imagine they also make a pretty penny off of it. They have a similar reputation to Consumer Reports as a source of unbiased information, although their marketing seems to be getting a bit out of hand as of late.

CR not good for high tech

[AlpineR]

I have subscribed to Consumer Reports' web site a couple times in the past five years and then cancelled after a month. One time was when I was shopping for an HDTV. I found that they were just too out of date to be useful. With the rate at which high tech gear advances, they have too many gaps and old information in their reviews. Other web sites with faster updates and user reviews are much more useful.

I've also seen them make major errors in their explanation of high tech appliances. About a CD burner they said something along the lines of "It can copy an audio CD but the sound quality will be reduced and the copy cannot be further duplicated."

Historically they have been good for items like cars or dishwashers that have slow product cycles and can be judged on mechanical performance. But I wouldn't trust them for anything involving computers or new technology. (Actually, now that cars and household appliances are being filled with computers, I'm not sure I would trust them for those things either.)

Re:CR not good for high tech

[NMerriam]

About a CD burner they said something along the lines of "It can copy an audio CD but the sound quality will be reduced and the copy cannot be further duplicated."

I know exactly what you're talking about because i remember going "WTF?" after reading the same thing. So I researched it, and sure enough it was correct -- the device they were reviewing was a turntable->CD device for converting old records to CD, and could be hooked up via USB to a computer as well. And yes, if you used it to make multiple copies of the CD it would use an analog circuit rather than just doing a bitwise copy. If you hooked it up via USB of course you could do regular bit-for-bit copies using your computer, but that was not the primary advertised way to do it.

As with 99% of the criticisms of CR, errors are usually just a matter of them not having the space to explain every technical detail of every device for pages on end (and their readers don't want to read pages of technical crap, either) -- so they summarize, and no summary is ever as complete as the whole explanation.

CR Online is worth much more than print version.

[Don92126]

As a current Consumer Reports Online subscriber it's obvious to me why I'm willing to pay as much as the print magazine: it's worth more to me. In fact I'd even pay more for online that print in this case. When I want to go find reviews, I don't want to go dig through a pile of print and hope I haven't lost the issue with the review I need, and if I'm a new subscriber to the online service I basically just got all the back issues for free. The online service is so handy I use it for basically every major purchase I make now.

Uh....porn? MMORPGs?

[WestCoastJTF]

"they're one of the few online resources that gets by completely on subscription fees"

Uh, aren't there gazillions of "online resources" that get by completely on subscription fees...aka porn? Isn't that the business model of every porn site?

On a less noxious note, that's also the business plan for eMusic and those sorts of sites.

Heck, it's also the business model for iTunes and World of Warcraft. They're not web sites, but they're still online resource.

Which is exactly my point.

[SanityInAnarchy]

If they're going to give me advice which is as laughably wrong to those experts as this "Choosing an OS" advice is to me, I'm not buying.

I would much rather ask someone knowledgeable in that field. And if I just want a "consumer" opinion, those are all over the Internet -- CR is thus obsoleted by the "rate this product" feedback boxes on Newegg and such.

Angie's List . . .

[base3]

. . . goes CR one better -- they collect subscription fees, and get the content (reviews of contractors and such) from the subscribers who are paying the fees.

Who wants that?

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as Adblock+ works better than Bugmenot, I prefer the ad model.

Re:Who wants that?

[MLease]

Yeah, but if enough people use Adblock+ (which I admittedly do), the ad model will eventually go away.

-Mike

Why

[kahrytan]

  It is because people know who Consumer Reports is and they can trust them to give honest reviews of products. And price is well worth it to keep them from making the wrong buying decision.

Re:Uh....porn? MMORPGs?

[base3]

Doesn't WoW have in game ads?

When did you last look?

[SanityInAnarchy]

It's pretty sad when I have to say the NVidia-drivers package does more work for me than the actual Xorg configuration tools.

And I have to say, it's pretty good when Xorg and the Ubuntu installers do so much for me that even I barely have to touch Xorg. The one time I can remember touching it since Ubuntu is enabling some stuff for Beryl to work, and I don't use Beryl anymore.

What gets me is there are some really nice LiveCD distros out there with all the creature comforts like hardware detection, easy customization and intuitive prompts. Why can't the big disk-based distros follow suit ?

Ubuntu does, at least on first install.

We can't even get a decent package manager, save for Ubuntu's Single-Click Install.

That could be read as: "We can get a decent package manager."

Which is more than you can say for, I don't know, any other OS. They may have "more intuitive" ways to install software, although I could debate that quite a bit, but I haven't seen anything else come with anything resembling a Linux package manager.

What if I like Ubuntu's friendly desktop, but I prefer Gentoo's build system ?

If you're technically inclined enough to ask that question, you're also qualified to find the friendly desktop things from Ubuntu and install them on Gentoo.

I find the Debian package manager to be one of the reasons Ubuntu's desktop is friendly.

We need to get out of denial and start working on solutions.

Good luck with that.

But the fact that you are a computer elitist puts you outside the realm of "average Joe". Average Joe doesn't care what build system is used, he just wants to click on something and have it install. Ubuntu does that. He doesn't care whether it's the nVidia drivers or the Xorg configuration tools, he just wants his GUI to work (and doesn't even know it's called a GUI), and guess what? Ubuntu does that, too.

Re:When did you last look?

[billcopc]

Ubuntu... Ubuntu... Yes I hear that over and over. Ubuntu is a great achievement, but there's still a long way to go before Joe asks for it by name.

First of all, a name change wouldn't hurt. Why must all the big Linux distros have dorky names that "normal" people can't remember, and that even us geeks feel stupid saying out loud ?

Gentoo, Ubuntu, Slackware, Suse, Mandriva... none of these are pleasing to the ear. They remind me of those dumb advertising or real-estate firms with names made up from the first syllables of their founders. Pick a word from the English dictionary at least!

Re:When did you last look?

[SanityInAnarchy]

Ubuntu... Ubuntu... Yes I hear that over and over. Ubuntu is a great achievement, but there's still a long way to go before Joe asks for it by name.

People frequently ask me. Of course, "Linux" is still more frequent.

Gentoo, Ubuntu, Slackware, Suse, Mandriva... none of these are pleasing to the ear.

Ubuntu is an African word which means "Harmony". How much better are you going to get?

Pick a word from the English dictionary at least!

And get slammed for unoriginality? No thanks.

Any suggestions other than a "name change"? And let me remind you:

The day Linux is worth using for the average Joe, is the day I'll start rooting for it.

You didn't say Joe had to ask for it by name, you said it had to be worth using for the average Joe.

Well, it is, unless you've got any further objections. Do I hear you rooting for it?

Re:When did you last look?

[billcopc]

You remind me of a law student. Many words, zero ideas.

XP.

[SanityInAnarchy]

The fact that XP exists, and still works well (compared to Vista), is why no one in their right mind should be recommending Vista.

Never mind that I think they're wrong in their Linux comparison -- they actually recommend buying a dual-core Vista laptop if the EEE PC isn't enough as-is. The sheer number of options between those, even in Windows...

Re:Uh....porn? MMORPGs?

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

Re:Uh....porn? MMORPGs?

[yincrash]

How would you present said ads w/o taking you out of the World of Warcraft?

And so do we...

[Wonderkid]

Spacecard - powered by gonumber.com. Boring, like a toaster, but it works - for some.

Free competition

[Morty]

Part of why people don't want to pay for access to "premium" newspapers is because they can access other "premium" newspapers for free. Why would I pay to read the New York Times when I can access the BBC, CNN, and Foxnews for free? For online charging to work, newspapers need to all illegally collude.

Consumer Reports doesn't have much competition at all, let alone free competition, so they can get away with charging.

Actually

[rastoboy29]

They have a very deceptive cancellation policy.  If you can believe it.

I bought a 1 month online subscription once, and they put me on recurring payments.  And no, I definitely did not authorize it.

Really.

No real competition?

[mattlamb]

Seems like they have very little competition when compared to newspapers, which maybe why newspapers are not able to charge for there websites.
Perhaps if newspapers were more of a social service like CSR and not pandering to the advertising industry and cutting stuff to the point where news is not researched but gathered from often dubious sources and repeated in every news source as if it was factual.

unless you've had your head in the sand

[EdelFactor19]

you should know that Vista is not optimal for anyone right now. Why else would all the companies be reverting to selling XP again?
The fact of the matter is that this laptop isn't exactly geared for hardcore gaming no matter WHICH OS is on it.

For the record installing or not installing Linux isn't an answer to what computer I should buy; Linux as of my last count is still just an operating system that runs on surprise a computer. That said I still agree with your point that was behind it: i love linux; and yes there is some gaming on it; but until the situation gets better I keep an XP partition around for serious gaming.

Buying a Dell with Vista? come on Dell hasn't been a good choice since 2000 or so. Seeing as these are the kind of people who might actually need tech support i cant endorse a company that puts you on 2 hour wait to speak to some guy in India.

I dont get how you can say that everything they said is correct when they made some blatant errors.. There are more than 3 versions of vista out and there always have been. Also as a point of logic, how could you disagree with it if it was correct? You cant disagree with a fact; you can disagree with an opinion. His opinion about gaming is something that can be disagreed upon, both sides have some truth, although I tend to side with them on the gaming issue.

Suggesting that everyone who needs something powerful needs dual core, 1 gig of ram and Vista is a bit suspect. A 3 ghz single core can still hold its own weight. maybe not with vista but runs XP and linux just fine. mac osX ran just fine on single core until they switched over to intel.

Consumer Reports

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right...get by just on subscribers.
Check out Consumer Reports Car Price Service, the biggest scam on the planet. They run a call center out of Montreal to take orders for car pricing information. Basic dealer incentive and holdback info costs you $14/car, and its the same info as any other free website, and it is usually wrong or unavailable. They sell millions of them a year and its nothing but a copycat service or free information already online, and badly managed at that.

Go back and read my original post, then.

[SanityInAnarchy]

Gaming was one part. Vista is my main gripe, but the whole article had an air of dumbing it down -- which is not bad in itself, to a point.

As Einstein says, everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.

When it's done, maybe.

[SanityInAnarchy]

Annoying fact: Vista sucks in many, many ways.

If you only play DirectX 10 games, then yeah, Vista is your only choice. Otherwise, you're going to want XP for at least another few years, until MS fixes Vista.

Another fact: We can have this discussion, and points can actually be made for both sides. CR assumes that you're right, and that Vista is the way to go, end of story -- which is simply not true. But I suppose gamers aren't in CR's target market, either. (Just what is CR's target market?)

Re:Uh....porn? MMORPGs?

[base3]

I assumed (wrongly, it seems) that there would be ads for at least things related to WoW or for Blizzard/Vivendi upsells. I haven't played the game because I am not willing to help support a company that used the DMCA to (try to) shut down an open source hobbyist server project.