Slashdot Mirror
More Spacecraft Velocity Anomalies
ZonkerWilliam recommends a bulletin from the American Institute of Physics, which discusses a study noting that recent spacecraft, such as NEAR, appear to display velocity anomalies much like those seen in Pioneer 10 (which were observed beginning ten years ago). The anomalies amount to up to 13 mm/sec., with a measurement accuracy of 0.1 mm/sec. Quoting: "A new look at the trajectories for various spacecraft as they fly past the Earth finds in each case a tiny amount of surplus velocity. For craft that pursue a path mostly symmetrical with respect to the equator, the effect is minimal. For craft that pursue a more unsymmetrical path, the effect is larger."
Does anyone else feel like they just read the first console in an old Bungie game? We should probably be arming ourselves.
It's actually 13 inches per hogshead, which is what they expected.
No problems here.
Pulp Audio Weekly - Geek News and Reviews
They're getting sick and tired of these slow things and finally got out and started pushing.
;)
Must be it.
Or possibly dark matter...
Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
Could this anomaly possibly be explained by dark matter?
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
This is ALIENS messing with us as a cosmic joke....
M.
Mmmm......sacrelicious.
I'm sorry officer; I was experiencing a velocity anomaly.
Dark matter?
Someone once said: The most profound scientific discoveries never begin with EUREKA! Usually they start with the words "now that's odd..."
I read the internet for the articles.
gravitons display a bias for polar rather than equatorial output. this was the basis for the graviton engine that first bought man...
oh shit, forgot what time line was in, you guys aren't supposed to discover this until 2039. dang it, screwed up again. i'll have to shut this time line down...
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
We're sorry about the bugs you've been observing lately. The latest anomalies are due to bug #14310, a hardware glitch much like those present in your own Pentium processors.
We're trying as hard as we can to mitigate this issue, primarily by avoiding the use of floating point calculations in our physics engine. In the meantime, we're manually changing your physics books so that you'll be able to calculate the ship's movement correctly. In one day, you'll have no memory that this incident ever happened, so do not worry.
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Yes, because gravity acts on energy as well as mass.
That is, after all, the principle behind things like gravitational lensing.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
The satalites are attracted to the earths gravity. The fact that it is speeding up when there is an unsymmetrical path could explained by the earth being more dense in certain areas than others.
Buy my shit at http://www.cellup.com
This is ALIENS messing with us as a cosmic joke....
As a cyborg who knows at least one alien I can tell you with near certainty that it's not the aliens. However, it is almost certainly dork matter.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot- RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Obviously, but only because light has a particle state. The wavelength (energy) of it doesn't enter the equation at all.
Number 857 #2, February 28, 2008 by Phil Schewe
More Spacecraft Velocity Anomalies
A new look at the trajectories for various spacecraft as they fly past the Earth finds in each case a tiny amount of surplus velocity. For craft that pursue a path mostly symmetrical with respect to the equator, the effect is minimal. For craft that pursue a more unsymmetrical path, the effect is larger. In the case of the NEAR asteroid rendevous craft (), for instance, the velocity anomaly amounts to 13 mm/sec. Although this is only one-millionth of the total velocity, the precision of the velocity measurements, carried out by looking at the Doppler shift in radio waves bounced off the craft, is 0.1 mm/sec, and this suggests that the anomaly represents a real effect, one needing an explanation.
Some ten years ago another anomaly was identified for the Pioneer 10 spacecraft (see http://www.aip.org/pnu/1998/split/pnu391-1.htm) and a certain amount of controversy has clung to the subject since then. One of the researchers on that earlier measurement is part of the new study, conducted by Jet Propulsion Lab scientists. John D. Anderson (jdandy@earthlink.net, 626-449-0102) says that the JPL scientists are now working with German colleagues to search for possible velocity anomalies in the recent flyby of the Rosetta spacecraft. (Anderson et al., Physical Review Letters, upcoming article; designated as an editor's suggested articlePhysical Review Letters)
Though it probably depends on your definition of the term grammar.
Or....light (photons) have mass and therefore are acted upon by gravity which would pretty much explain gravitational lensing.
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
We might find an explanation for this anomaly, or it could not be an anomaly. Laws of nature might be changing from time to time, and even if we have looked into the past till the first seconds before the big bang and even if we were correct in our interpretation there is no guarantee that laws can't change starting here and now. Limit reached when guys study the system they're part of.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Once you leave Earth for a while, particularly if you travel far, you realize that it doesn't suck quite as much as you thought.
A similar phenomenon occurs when traveling outside of the U.S.
Nasa & JPL determined in late October that the extra push pressure is from slight low energy gamma radiation from the core of our galaxy being red-shifted by going "uphill" (yeah, I know bad rubber-sheet analogy) out of the gravity well of the entire milky way. The spiral rotation factor of the spiral (once every 55 million years), though slight, is conjectured to impart further pressure of about 2.8 mm/sec.
It isn't noticable closer in because the heliopause outweights everything else. Only when you get closer to the outside of our solar system's bubble, does it become noticable.
Here is an interesting explanation for it by a PhD. with the following credentials:
Beginning in 1979 he worked for Sandia National Laboratories (New Mexico) in nuclear physics, geophysics, pulsed-power research, and theoretical atomic and nuclear physics. In 1985, he began working with Sandia's 'Particle Beam Fusion Project', and was co-inventor of special laser-triggered 'Rimfire' high-voltage switches, now coming into wider use.
The last few years at Sandia had seen greater emphasis on theoretical nuclear physics and radiation hydrodynamics in an effort to help produce the world's first lab-scale thermonuclear fusion. Besides gaining another U.S. patent, Dr Humphreys has been given two awards from Sandia, including an Award for Excellence for contributions to light ion-fusion target theory.
Here's his explanation: ( Includes physics equations. )
http://www.creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_2/j21_2_61-70.pdf
Apparently god only had "inches" rulers handy when creating the universe, wouldn't ya know it!
stuff |
Are you sure about that? because I'm pretty sure that energy does enter into the equation. You know, E=MC2? Matter is energy, and vice versa, and gravity acts on both the same because they are the same. I could be wrong though.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Wavelength is frequency. Amplitude--wave height--is energy.
And light does not have a 'particle state'--it can be modeled as a particle, sure, but it really isn't.
And really, it's not so much the light being 'bent' anyway, but the space that the light travels through.
It is, however, known that sufficient quantities of concentrated energy are capable of generating gravitational influence; it's hypothesized that energy was the chief source of gravitational influence during the first short bit of time after the big bang.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
and thats the basis for star trek style warp drives.
now to find a energy source thats abundant, easy to get at, and renewable...
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
They're using the doppler effect to measure. Maybe they should try some other measurement techniques as well to see if they all match up. It might be a measurement error of some sort.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
I'm amazed that they can apparently measure the speed of spacecraft that's millions of kilometers away, to a precision of 10e-4 m/s. How do they do this? I imagine it must be some sort of interferometry. Still, awesome. If only cruise control (with automatic distance control) was this accurate. :-)
The precision of the measurements is 0.1 mm/sec, not the accuracy. Those are different things.
Someone once said: The most profound scientific discoveries never begin with EUREKA! Usually they start with the words "now that's odd..."
Why would Sci-Fi Channel name a series "Now That's Odd"?
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
They are talking an descrepency of 1 part on 10^6. As they say its absolute value is 1.3x10^-2 that means the relative velocity is 1.3x10^4. So boost (which is down around 10^-10) is not a factor.
Squirrel!
no. That is wrong. The "particle" part of "wave-particle duality" does not refer to a separate state. Further, it doesn't have mass, either.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
And light does not have a 'particle state'--it can be modeled as a particle, sure, but it really isn't. Light waves do not have "amplitude". And it is a particle and a wave at the same time, as are you. The concept is hard to get around at first. Either way, it can certainly be quantized and a single photon has a finite amount of energy based solely on it's frequency. The intensity is the sum of the total energies of the individual photons. If this were not the case, a lot of spectroscopy would be bunk.
I had the nous to download them before they went dark. Anyone know what the eventual outcome was?
Sadly, none of us can probably make a useful suggestion on this topic (one that would have eluded all the physicists that have been working on this). Unless the next Einstein is reading Slashdot,we can only make narrow conjectures. How many of us have the knowledge and data required? We might as well try to diagnose a medical condition based on a cursory discussion. It's fun to talk about, though.
For individual quanta, yes. My apologies for not making clear that I was not addressing single instances but more collective quantities. I was thinking on a different scale--the one used to measure the satellite's velocity--rather than the one you're referencing.
I'll come back when I've finished my coffee.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
Could it have anything to do with frame dragging? That would explain differences based on symmetry to the equator.
A photon doesn't have a measurable rest mass, because it per definition can never do anything but travel at c. It does carry momentum (the basis for solar sails), which you can't have without mass.
Did you mean Dark Energy? That's the one that's the unexplained expansion acceleration in spacetime that we don't understand yet.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
... welcome our massive stealth alien observation ship owners overlords
So, what's you're point? F=GMm/r^2 doesn't work on momentum, it works on mass. Gravity does not affect light as a force, so there's no point in using a classical definition of gravity to predict gravitational lensing.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
John, yet ANOTHER Slashdot ID??? We told you to stop trolling here!
The solar wind output from the sun is anisotropic, and can certainly account for variations in a space probe's velocity. I'm wondering if that was taken into account in their calculations.
*** Quantum Mechanics: The Dreams of Which Stuff is Made ***
The article has little information about what types of trajectories are affected, so this is just wild guessing. If the orientation of solar panels or dish antennas are markedly different for different trajectories, drag from particles or acceleration from absorbing/reflecting solar radiation can also differ. There's more garbage in the plantary plane, so there's more drag and more blocking of solar radiation.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Your actually thinking of the Alcubierre "warp drive", not Star Trek warp drives. In ST, they use a system that pushes the ship into deeper regions of "subspace", more akin to layers of an onion. The Alcubierre drive makes a stable bubble of spacetime using exotic matter and moves through normal space.
Maybe we DID take the blue pill. You wouldn't remember anyway.
I'm tempted to check this out, but wary of the domain for that site. Can anyone else comment on what the "explanation" offered here actually is, rather then trying to convince us how great a source the guy is and then only linking to the article.
Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
I doubt the Doppler calculations are off, but those calculations are entirely dependent on the onboard timebase standards. If the probe is moving, say, 10 km/sec relative to Earth, then the stated measurement accuracy of 0.1 mm/sec requires 1E-8 precision. The best quartz oscillators are good for about that much drift per year, but that's on Earth, at 1g and STP. Maybe the master clocks are behaving anomalously after a decade in space. I'd be more inclined to suspect an unknown quartz aging phenomenon than a change in some fundamental physical constant.
Didn't RTFA yet, but maybe some of the probes have rubidium standards onboard. If two different timekeeping technologies show a similar error, that would be a lot more interesting...
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
the neutrino piston yet? i can't remember which century i'm in. you need a PSI greater than the centers of stars to get the crystallization right
but i've said enough already, i've totally screwed up this whole timeline with my careless comments, i apologize
time to dispose of this timeline
hold for oblivion...
oh by the way, in 10 years time you do in fact finally achieve your deepest wish for...
BZZT
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Am I the only one who gets this fuzzy warm feeling that it looks like an effect of a SF MacGuffin explaining why, finally, it is possible to travel between stars in less than a year ?
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
but you didn't tell me WHEN to stop trolling. you never were very good with the whole spatial temporal coordinates. its not my fault you adapt shorthand conversational notation and assume other people know which WHEN you are talking about. when you're dealing with timethreads you can't be as careless as you are, nevermind my carelessness. own up to your carelessness and i'll own up to mine
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The Pioneer 10 and 11 speed-position anomalies, unaccounted drift, were noticed by the late 70's. NASA and the peole involved just didn't discuss it with the public until much later, after many potential sources of error and theoretical possiblities had been analyzed. That is when I first heard it mentioned, in Houston, ca 1977-78.
If those europeans and europeans-wanna-be stopped using fancy units of measurements, and just plainly used the well-worn all-American "Inches/just-a-sec" for measurements, there would be no anomolies.
The only mm/sec I know, is the # of m&ms I can pop into my mouth per second.
Come on already! How many fatal flaws have to be revealed before "scientists" will admit that the Theory of Gravity is invalid?
Intelligent Pushing describes this behavior quite easily. It's obvious that GSM would apply more appendage force to non-equatorial motion. Things going in odd directions are simply more fun to play with. Duh!
I'm surprised the electric universe otaku haven't jumped in to claim credit for this yet.
Who cares if it starts with the assumption that the universe is only 6000 years old? It has real physics equations.
Here is the summary from the article:
If a large volume of empty space surrounds the matter of the cosmos, so that the cosmos can have a centre of mass, then the matter is in a deep gravitational potential 'well'. If space is expanding and spreading the matter outward, then the depth of the well is decreasing. According to general relativity, especially a new solution of Einstein's equations derived in the Appendix (which also deals with Birkhoff's theorem), the decreasing depth continuously shortens 'radar' distances within the well, causing the observed apparent acceleration. The magnitude of the anomalous acceleration implies the bottom of the potential well has not yet risen very far above the critical depth for gravitational time dilation. Thus the Pioneer effect supports the essentials of several creationist cosmologies: a centre of mass, expansion of space and recent time dilation. Big bang theorists, whose cosmology does not have a centre of mass, cannot use this explanation.
this is what, the 3rd time line i will screw/ am screwing/ screwed up? i will apologize/ am apologizing/ apologized
please don't report this to the arbitrator, i don't need yet another resubstantiation this epoch
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Would you prefer crayon drawings?
Oh, no! I accidentally added an 'e' onto the end of a word! Obviously this means I have no clue how to spell it properly.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
Just what I'm aware of: the standard formulae for predicting the positions of planets are not very accurate.
This is due to the fact that the differential equation problem for an n-body problem is extremely difficult to get right. That said, there is another, newer method called the Parker-Sochacki solution to the Picard iteration(about 10 yrs old) that develops MacLauren series solutions to the N-body problems.
But if you plug the numbers into that solution, you still find that fairly significant error develops. That said, there error is a lot less. And what there is, problem comes from the many asteroids and planetoids that surround our Sun, as well as from nearby Oort clouds and whatnot.
Well, I wouldn't expect to find this type of an error -- velocity changes (as compared to what you expected) as you leave the equatorial plane -- coming from the nearby oort clouds. However, I would expect this kind of an error to result from both (1) using the older N-body approximations, and (2) the asteroids that are within the solar equatorial plane.
My guess -- if you look at the calculation methods used, they didn't use the PS method. And if you then use the error in planetary predictions under PS, to guess at the mass of in-plane asteroidal matter, you might find an additional reduction in error.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Dark matter affects appear over galacatic scales, not AUs. Thats a million times larger.
I'm inclined to think this is something mundane... unaccounted for mass, systematic measuring flaws, something like that.
But if it is something exotic... the fact that it seems to show up on elliptical orbits suggests that it has to do with an object repeated going up and down the sides of a gravity well. Maybe space/time isn't the only thing curved by gravity?
Also, I wonder how the velocity change is distributed through the orbit? Depending on timing, it could tend to bring all eccentric orbits into a more nearly circular path. If this really is a new, universal, force, that could have big cosmological implications.
It is not the speed that is changing. It is the time reference. Time stretched with the expansion of space, and that expansion is not linear, so neither is time.
Sounds like it could be related to the frame dragging effect, especially the whole "equator difference in velocity flyby"
Near the equator bad! Near the Pole = Better velocity boost.
Look at active black holes, they shoot jets out at the poles, but near the equator they suck matter into themselves, isn't the effect the same as near a Black hole just on a smaller/larger scale?
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
Ted Huntington, is that you?
All waves have an amplitude. Here is a simple site for illustration.
I'm not an expert on electro-magnetic radiation propagation, but iirc when light propagates, each pulse contains two waves traveling orthogonally. The lead or lag of one of these fields is the result of polarization mode dispersion in optical fiber.
"Little is much when little you need."
If you were a physicist, you'd know that gravity does cause frame dragging around the Earth, where time runs at a different speed. But this has been measured before and whoever is measuring these satellites should be aware of frame dragging and included it in their calculations. I don't know what the effects are of a path which crosses the direction of frame rotation, but as the GPS constellation is affected they probably figured out the time effects a while ago (and probably their velocity effects also).
..and it's just the aether. And there's nothing more irresponsible than a spacecraft in the depths of an aether binge, and I knew we'd be getting into that rotten stuff soon.
"We apologize for the inconvenience."
ardnmo
"Little is much when little you need."
a small acceleration in the direction of the Sun---8 x 10-8 cm/sec2 for Pioneer 10---remains unaccounted for.
It goes withour saying that since gravity is a proportional to mass, either the sun got fatter, or some fat dude is hiding behind it without us knowing it, so.....break out the tinfoil hats!!!!
"If a boss demands loyalty, give him integrity. But if he demands integrity, give him loyalty." (John Boyd, 1927-1997)
"eth"? tsk...
"Little is much when little you need."
Another force, maybe, but it has to act preferentially at or near the poles.
Do you suppose there's any iron in them that was more strongly attracted by a third-order dipole force to the magnetic poles?
(T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
Humphreys is a crank, and nobody outside the echo chamber of creationist websites takes this stuff seriously. The wikipedia article on him is fairly hopeless, but a reasonable short summary of the problems with his "theory" is here: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE412.html
I think it is more of the human ability to interpret vagueness into anything. The genesis description of the origin of the universe lends itself to analogy, which he uses in that paper. Now his physics may be accurate in that the Universe may extend much further than the matter we can detect, and that may explain the velocity anomaly. But to extend that to say that a very vague story from 3000 years ago is a true an accurate description of the universe's origins and that therefore the bible is literally true is just fantasy.
I've never been a believer. Recently, after reading The Selfish Gene and seeing just how much real evidence there is for evolution and seeing that science really _is_ an accurate and true explanation for how we came to be on the earth. It really does explain away any "need" for any sort of "personal god" as an alternate explanation. So, to give equal time to "the other side", I tried to read the bible. I got thru Genesis, but realized that there really is "nothing there" as far as explanatory power. And certainly to try to extract morals from the old testament would be a mistake. So then I got "Skeptics Answered" and again, there really isn't anything to the arguments of the believers.
While I'm interested in why people believe, and how we can change that going forward, I've really lost interest in _what_ they believe. It really holds no value as near as I can tell.
Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
...but to me it sounds similar to the effect you get when you spin a wheel. You get a force perpendicular to the axis of the wheel. Its like the experiment you did in high school where someone spun a bicycle wheel while standing on a rotatable platform. As they changed the angle of the spinning bicycle wheel it caused the the person on the platform to accelerate their rotational velocity. Maybe the rotation of the earth is some how providing rotational acceleration.
br/
What? They can measure the position AND momentum without changing the phase-shift impulse on their Heisenberg compensators? Don't tell Geordi
More music, fewer hits
Perhaps its the gravitational pull of Nibiru, Stichen's 12th Planet (or planet X). Nibiru is supposed to be in a goofy orbit that gets close to earth every 3600 years, it is due back around 2012, and is supposed to be currently visible from the south pole as a reddish dot that is visible in the day time. The pull from this planet would not have much effect on items moving perpendicular to its approach, but the pull would definitely affect items moving towards it. If Stichen was right about Nibiru, we'll see an increase in its effect on orbital items.
I don't personally subscribe to theories about Nibiru, but my roommate does and I am willing to discuss almost anything.
How amazed would you be to suddenly find that you just forgot what I wrote and you needed to reread my post.... again.
but would you like to join the war of 1812? get back to me in the next 5 minutes before this wormhole closes
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What field of science do I have to study for how long to understand that summary?
MMO Vampire Role Playing
Applying acoms razor to this pretty quickly refutes Humphreys. It's hard to argue with anyone who is willing to start with the assumption that 6000 years ago a higher power just zapped everything into existence.
I strongly believe that one of the sibblings of a higher power was playing with what they thought was play-do, but was actually something which was more equivalent to C12 dipped in a sump tank and it went off. Thus the big bang. In their realm of time this has just happened and would be equivalent to 1e-7 sec in their time (notice the use of scientific notation). While in our time this has been going on for 1e+100 sec. If you were to apply an exponential gradient from their time to our time at the boundary of the explosion, you would find your time dialation. The lack of application of this time dialation forces to the electrical and gravitational equations is one of the reasons we have have been unable to find a unified calculation of the 2 types of forces.
He who said 1,000,000 monkeys on 1,000,000 typewriters would eventually type the great novel, never saw an AOL chat room
Summary:
The earth is 6000 years old. Ok yeah the rest of the universe is like billions of years old, but the Bible says the earth is 6000 years old, so the earth gotta be 6000 years old and we gotta work the rest of the universe around that. Oh, and the Bible says something about the Waters Above The Heavens too, so we'll put the universe inside the Waters Above The Heavens, and I'll calculate how much it weighs. And if you take every 23rd word from every 23rd page of the Bible... well actually you just get a bunch of random shit that doesn't make any sense. But it's just gotta be in code or something. And when we decrypt it we can finally prove to everyone that God exists. Everyone is born Christian, only later in life do people choose to stray from Jesus and worship satan instead. Atheists have the greatest "cover" of all, they insist they believe in no god yet most polls done and the latest research indicates that they are actually a different sect of Muslims.
Oh, and I have a patent on something.
And I work at a really impressive place doing Real Pysics in a completely different field.
Well, actually I used to work somewhere really cool, but now I got a really neat Associate Professor title working for The Institute for Creation Research and lecturing on behalf of Answers in Genesis.
I used some real neat math calculating how much the Waters Above The Heavens weigh and other stuff.
Oh, and I got another patent on something else too.
I'm like really serious, TWO patents. So don't fuck with me.
It means I'm not crackpot on this cosmalagogicamalal stuff.
SOLIER ALERT!
If you plan on reading the linked PDF and don't want any spoilers, don't scroll down!
.
.
.
.
.
.
The Waters Above The Heavens weigh 8.8 x 10^52 kg.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
A hogs head is a unit of volume, not length.
I think you meant to say 1.233EE-10 chains/fortnight (if my conversions are correct)
HTH, HAND
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
They note that the effect on NEAR 13mm / sec, while the effect on Pioneer is 8x10-8 cm/sec^2. If they had more measurements, they could presumably determine if the effect is "distributed" with proximity to the sun. That is, using your basic F=Gm1m2/r^2, and noting that NEAR is 1au from the sun, and pioneer is 70 au from the sun, you'd expect a ~70^2 decrease in the order of magnitude of the effect on Pioneer vs. NEAR, IF it were gravity (specifically, if the measure of force of gravity is wrong). Which is about the decrease in order of magnitude of the velocity difference. So maybe it *is* gravity. Wait, let me get another beer...
more like 5.342EE-10 chains per fortnight.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
read "the case for christ"... then read the critiques of it.
the combination seems to be locking down my lack of faith despite recent troubling times for me.
it would be so wonderful to gain faith and basically go insane and be happy the rest of my life because there was an imaginary being out there to take care of me.
but I just can't do it.
The only decent argument that didn't feel like a strawman was the "adverse argument" witness. "case" doesn't include any real critics but it feels kinda nice at first- until you read the critiques..
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
That's no moon...
Today's lucky number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Physics can be done in crayon just fine, thank you very much! Color coding the variables is quite useful :-) And more fun than anatomy coloring books.
I downloaded the paper and read through it -- with my teenage boys alongside. I think he may be on to something because of the quantity of unexplained and partially explained phenomena he can give a simple explanation for -- it may be wrong, but it sounds simple, feels elegant. I especially liked the idea of getting rid of the "tuning-fork" model of classifying galaxies which seemed arbitrary enough to invoke Ole's Law: wrongness = ugliness * hardness.
But again, let me emphasize: I don't know enough about the rest of the science behind the classification to give good reasons beyond æsthetic ones regarding why I didn't like it.
As soon as I saw the title of this subject, it got me thinking about Mayer's paper. I'm sorry to see the thing has gotten shut down this hard. The chain of events that led to him losing his (visible) guest access shows that his ideas struck a lot of our truth-sense nerves as being on. It'll be interesting to see if his notions are borne out in the end.
to truth...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
disagree.
Note on Theory vs Practice: "While gravitational redshift refers to what is seen, gravitational time dilation refers to what is deduced to be "really" happening once observational effects are taken into account."
I didn't see any discussion about this in the comments I read, but I think an interesting idea to consider is that space may well not be homogeneous. I mean, the distribution of matter within space is not homogeneous, so why do we assume that space itself is homogeneous? I don't think we have the instruments or theories to cover this sort of situation, but I think it's an idea worth considering.
A similar issue is that everything is moving away from everything else, which would seem to indicate to me that the fabric of space is itself expanding. Kind of like when you draw something (matter) on a balloon (space) and then inflate the balloon. However, some balloons aren't manufactured well (not that I'm saying the universe was "manufactured") and they will inflate unevenly. Some inflate as ovals, some as long tubes, others in wacky shapes. What's to say that space isn't doing this sort of uneven expansion too?
We need some way to quantify distance irrespective of space, because if space itself is expanding, then the ruler you use to measure it (which obviously exists in space) is also expanding. I lack proper terminology to say what I'm about to say, so I need you to bear with me. We need the ability to take a snapshot of a given region of space, and determine the density of arbitrary volumes of space within that region. I know, I just said we need to determine the density of emptiness, and that's where I've minced terms. If the expansion rate of each arbitrary region of space isn't homogeneous with respect to the other regions, then some regions should be "less dense" than others. They should, literally, contain more or less space than another arbitrary region.
So if space isn't homogeneous, then when matter passes from a low density to high density region of space, is the matter recompressed? The analogy here is you have a balloon representing a low density region of space, you draw a little stick figure on it, then while the ink is still wet, you press it on another balloon of equal inflation and then deflate it to symbolize the transition from low to high density space. The stick figure will shrink and become more dense. Another possibility though is that the matter isn't necessarily "anchored" to a given region of space, so the object could pass from the less-dense space into the more-dense space without distortion. The analogy here is that the second balloon is already deflated when you imprint the stick figure upon it.
I think that something like this could account for the velocity discrepancies. I'm no physicist though, that's just my two cents.
Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
You are absolutely 100% wrong. From the article:
(Emphasis mine.)
The rest of what you said is quite wrong also. Maybe not 100% wrong, but pretty close.
The 1600's called, they want their "Thus" word back, and they're pissed.
Also, this is the funniest thing I have read in a long time. Holy didn't-see-that-punchline-coming, batman!
they use an Earth-based hydrogen maser for the clock and the spacecraft receives and retransmitts it back to Earth
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
It is my belief: Never shall religion answer the questions in science and never shall science answer the questions in religion. Faith which is the reason to be for religion is a personal need based on our spirituality which is beyond the mind at this time. Science fills the need to satisfy the intellect and therefore the mind.A person who looks to the bible for answers to the physics of the world will always be disatisfied.
well, 13 mm per second is just about 78 furlongs per fortnight. here, i converted it for you.
radiation pressure folks. It's there, it's proven.
What questions are answered by religion?
I can understand the appeal of the social aspect of going to church, but I see no questions answered by religion. I do see the reinforcement of wish thinking, but no "answers".
Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
If you don't get past Genesis, then, no, you're not going to get it. Not really.
The scriptures are not, and should not be sold as, a science textbook.
They're a collection of recollections and philosophizings of people who believe(d) in God.
I can't speak for everybody, but I can mention my experience reading some Isaiah quotes in the Book of Mormon. (And skeptics have fun with those, yes, but they're missing the point, still.)
There's a verse or two in there about men worshipping the creations of their own hands (For instance, Isaiah 2: 20.) and coming to a realization that the things which they have made with there own hands aren't going to save them in the end. I was reading that at about sixteen, while listening to Boston at close to 0 db. (My mom would come in later and told me it was her turn, and I would have to put on something classical, which I am now glad she did. She didn't mind volume if it was good music.) Something about throwing the idols they had made for themselves out of gold and silver to the moles and the bats.
I had built my own speaker enclosures (mid-fi Radio Snake speaker elements) and had replaced some dirty multi-pole switches with flip-flop driven 0-gain transistor switch circuits of my own design. (West Texas is dusty, and we still had refineries south of town burning off by-product gases and such, which definitely led to quick corrosion in the electro-mechanical parts of cheap "mid-fi" amps, etc.
I looked up at the works of my own hands, so to speak, on the shelf over my desk, and I thought about what might move me to throw the stereo system into a hole in the ground, and it hit me, something like it hit me when I figured out that 1+1=2 only holds because we restrict it to the cases where the units are of like objects and non-compressible. And the addition operator something like simple aggregation. And the usual assumptions about comparison.
I've had similar experiences, and those experiences are part of why I believe. The scriptures teach me a truth I need, and then there's nothing to do but accept the truth.
I have never had any such experience about the theory that the creation was seven 24 hour days. Quite the opposite. I noticed, rather, that the light and the dark don't seem to be divided during the first day and night. I also noticed that the word day is often used for other meanings than a time unit of 24 hours.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Surely it's not a two-body, 10 body or 3000 body model? Be nifty if someone working the problem would share that insight, even the name of the model would let us (former orbital mechanics types) Google and perhaps understand a bit better what was up. In the meantime maybe f ~ m*mi/r^2 should not be using the old 1+1=2 version of "2". Then try summing that over i=1:20000, heck just try finding a quick list of 20,000 m's.
It's the UFO's buzzing them, and pulling them along.
mark "please, Mr. Spaceman, won't you please take me along..."
Hey, buddy. I said it's over. Get over it.
I'm not interested anymore. You guys had your chance to make your case. I know how you feel by now, ya think?
"A man cannot begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows." --Epictetus, 1st Century A.D.
That gravity does not affect light as a force was my point. Perhaps there is a force that does, related to (but not like) gravity.
ICBW, but the way I see redshift is just confirming that gravity acts on the particle form of light -- if it acted based on the energy of the light, the amount of redshift would vary depending on the wavelength. Subjected to the same well, blue would be shifted more towards red than yellow would be.
In other words, as I read it, the energy shifting is the effect of the gravity pull on the quark. Not the cause.
Looks like it was universal warming, not just global warming.
How could we have known that broadcasting rock'n'roll out into space would heat everything up? Now space and time have stretched, Jupiter and Saturn are going to turn into stars, real estate on Mars has quadrupled in price and its triggered a crisis on "Earth-based-mortgages".
Truly amazing, but nothing compared to an average day at SCO court.
Cheers!
Dave
How about, although I'm not sure how it fits with the symmetric/asymettric orbit thing, more velocity = extra energy from somewhere. Sun heats it up on one side = extra energy. That energy radiates away from that side. Is at at all possible that could speed something up?? I have no real clue..
Darwin Hawking Blackmore
if it acted based on the energy of the light, the amount of redshift would vary depending on the wavelength
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_redshift
The change in wavelength is dependent of the delta potential due to the gravity field. The shift is independent of where you start, it is a change in energy. Using money as an example, if your delta cash is $5, then it doesn't matter if you start at $100 or $1000, you get $5 *less*. It makes no sense to suggest that a $5 debt would subtract more from $1000 than from a $100. You get $995 and $95, respectively. You *don't* shift the grand by more or less than the $5.
The more appropriate way to discuss the cause of this difference is Gravitational Time Dilation, which is "the effect of time passing at different rates in regions of different gravitational potential; the higher the local distortion of space-time due to gravity, the slower time passes". Thus the frequency changes due to the change in time rate. The time rate change is just a matter of the differences in potential, so the time rate change would be the same for blue light as for yellow light, or for human beings, for that matter.
We can measure this time dilation using atomic clocks and changes in potential of Earth's gravity well. We can also bounce signals off of Venus that pass close to the Sun, where we see a delay in the signal resulting from the different time rates of the regions the signal must pass through. "The effect is significant enough that the Global Positioning System needs to correct for its effect on clocks aboard artificial satellites, providing a further experimental confirmation of the effect."