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The Disconnect Between Management and the Value of IT

DavidHumus writes "According to a Wall St. Journal article top executives at most companies fail to recognize the value of IT, having a tendency to think of information technology as a basic utility, like plumbing or telephone service. The article lists five primary reasons for 'the wall' between IT and business: 'mind-set differences between management staff and IT staff, language differences, social influences, flaws in IT governance (defined as the specification and control of IT decision rights), and the difficulty of managing rapidly changing technology.' Does this fully explain the extreme lack of understanding of IT at high executive levels? The article is even-handed in apportioning blame but touches on a few good points. In particular, how '[m]ost top executives ... think of IT as an expensive headache that they'd rather not deal with.'"

333 comments

  1. utilities are important by bigdavex · · Score: 5, Insightful

    According to a Wall St. Journal article top executives at most companies fail to recognize the value of IT, having a tendency to think of information technology as a basic utility, like plumbing or telephone service.

    I think this comment shows a failure to recognize the value of basic utilities.
    --
    -Dave
    1. Re:utilities are important by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

      But does the plumbing infrastructure need to be redone every few years?

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    2. Re:utilities are important by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Depends on how often your staff has "Taco Day" in the lunchroom.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    3. Re:utilities are important by dindi · · Score: 1

      Agreed. In a non-IT related company IT is a basic utility. But you know what happens if your toiled clogs up, or when 500 employees cannot use phone, or brush their teeth/wash their hands after their lunch break.
      I work for companies who have almost no in-house IT, and from time to time I am charging more for a few hours of work then what a full-time person would take there as a salary. I do not mean pc service, because that is handled by the local guy who knows windows and pc, but basic setups, web maintenance and things that would cost them very little with a full-time IT guy.

    4. Re:utilities are important by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The point is that while water and electricity are crucial to a business, and providing them more efficiently helps the bottom line, there's no way for a business to get a significant strategic advantage from having hotter hot water*. The argument being made is that improvements in IT *can* give you such an advantage. (Of course, there's that guy from Harvard who periodically gets linked here arguing the opposite -- I have no idea.)

      * Yes, there might exist businesses that might benefit significantly from hotter hot water. Please spare me your nerdly nitpicking.

    5. Re:utilities are important by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Well for plumbing services are usually a cost without any value to the company. Insuring if you have Hot Water or not, or if a toilet (Out of many) is clogged will not effect the companies profits. They need to to be fixed for health and safety reasons but they could be put off for a few hours or even days or weeks without it effecting the bottom line, unless employees start getting sick. Telephone services I would argue fall under IT as well, as telephones are a Information Technology.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:utilities are important by theheadlessrabbit · · Score: 2, Funny

      and in the case of McDonalds, having hotter water can be a bit of a liability.

      --
      -I only code in BASIC.-
    7. Re:utilities are important by tompaulco · · Score: 2, Informative

      But does the plumbing infrastructure need to be redone every few years?
      Yes. If you try to "right size" your plumbing infrastructure, you will have to redo it every few years and it will cost you much more in the long run.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    8. Re:utilities are important by Xcruciate · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Think RAVEN - Remember, Affect Verb, Effect Noun

      Just trying to help :)

      --
      It's like "looking busy" at your employment - it's actually easier to do real work than to fake it. - bmo
    9. Re:utilities are important by fredrated · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is exactly what makes the IT staff far more important than those who maintain basic utilities. The playground is constantly shifting, and if you don't recognize the value of those that can keep up with it you will end up with dummies that can't do the job.

    10. Re:utilities are important by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 1

      Insuring if you have Hot Water or not, or if a toilet (Out of many) is clogged will not effect the companies profits. T

      So you'd pay to eat in a restaurant that didn't have either of those things working? I sure wouldn't--and not eating in a restaurant sounds like it would affect the bottom line to me.
      --
      Who did what now?
    11. Re:utilities are important by Nodlehs · · Score: 1

      there's no way for a business to get a significant strategic advantage from having hotter hot water* I think that is a terrible analogy. If your IT department is handled properly, it can do many things to improve the work place.

      Keeping up to date on security, monitoring and expanding the network when needed to ensure proper bandwidth, acquiring/implementing accessible time management software; all enable a faster more productive workplace. The bottom line is that IT is there as a tool, yes, a utility, that a business can use to help them profit.

      Note: Just because something is a tool does not lessen its importance. Nor does it mean you can skimp on properly funding said tool.
    12. Re:utilities are important by flink · · Score: 1

      Thanks for trying to effect this change in verbiage. I hope you don't find my affect too patronizing. ;)

    13. Re:utilities are important by ckaminski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Time scales are relative. Plumbing and electrical and communications (telephone) networks HAVE been upgrades every "few" years, few being relative, from 5-10 to 20-30. Yes, those networks do get upgraded constantly. The difference is, they are very mature compared to networking. We've had three major network upgrade waves in the past 15 years. From everything else to Ethernet, from 10BaseT to 100BaseT, and from that to Gigabit Ethernet.

      I know of several companies who are going to replace thousands of pounds of functioning servers simply because they've reached the end of their 3year service life. When we stop measuring server lifespans in months and do so instead in decades, we'll have matured as an industry. And then people will understand computers as they understand electricity, telephones and plumbing.

      They'll still call a specialist.

    14. Re:utilities are important by Otter · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think that is a terrible analogy. If your IT department is handled properly, it can do many things to improve the work place.

      Yes, TFA's whole point is that IT shouldn't be treated as a utility!

    15. Re:utilities are important by Nodlehs · · Score: 1

      Yes, TFA's whole point is that IT shouldn't be treated as a utility! At least quote the part where I mention that I think it should be treated as a utility. IT should exist to provide the business with what it needs to get its job done. It is there to provide an environment conducive to getting work done, to make a profit... A good IT department should be properly funded, just like your electrical bill, otherwise, not much gets done. I don't think anyone disputes that a well run IT department can make the company money, the distinction is it does so through supporting the non IT workers as a utility they use to get their work done.
    16. Re:utilities are important by Chief+Camel+Breeder · · Score: 1

      Yes, utilities are important, and IT should aspire to be such a utility. What IT is not, and cannot be, is a commodity in the sense that electricity supply and water supply are commodities.

    17. Re:utilities are important by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

      I think this comment shows a failure to recognize the value of basic utilities.


      Sure, basic utilities are recognized when they don't work, but things like plumbing have been around for millenia. They ought to be quietly working in the background so that people don't get distracted about committees for upgrading their plumbing or phones.

      IT, for the moment, is being relegated to the status of a mere utility, a quiet tool that should not detract from the main effort. Of course, IT has more potential than a utility, only none of this potential is that easy to realize with current technology.

      Like a craftsman in shop full of tools, the user of IT is thankful for all the different tools, but is typically clueless about building a better tool. Also, the user is thankful that the tool doesn't render him/her obsolete, but rather provides an opportunity while not having to do the work even more manually.

      When more opportunities arise than can be tackled with mere staffing, or competition causes a need to increase output or reduce costs, the tools become a bottleneck, and investment in technology is considered. IT spending is driven by IT distracting from the core business, and who wants to be distracted?

      The difference between IT and a dumb tool is that computers are potentially smart while information alone is more noise than signal. Currently IT mindset is to serve up dumb information and provide well understood calculations on the information. The problem is that the calculations don't go far enough because there are still more thoughts to think after the information is output. No one expects the ultimate goals to be obtained by the time the computer is done.

      Incomplete information is one of the big stumbling blocks of computers. They have enough power to calculate everything well before the cows get home, but they don't have the information inputs and the storage to calculate deeper reliable results.

      Another problem is the lack of computer understanding for what is going on. A computer is told to follow a sequence of steps but does not handle new situations. A person has to reprogram or reconfigure, and by the time this work is done, the computer might not be applicable. Even having a huge storehouse of ready-made programs for numerous scenarios doesn't guarantee the right program would be found and operated in time, as software is hard to use in just the right way to get the right results.

      Gradually, these problems will be reduced and computer results will be more interesting. Then, computers will be able to run larger and larger segments of a business. The role of computers in the economy increases quite rapidly, but IT changes per business are made in quantum leaps rather than continuously. Perhaps we can blame Windows for being practically hateful for business upgrades, but the real problem is the results of the Top 500 - the fastest supercomputers have yet to prove to the public how the world can get out of its current dilemmas. Skyrocketing oil prices, foreclosures, terrorism, global warming, disease, aging, etc. are problems that have persisted without any solution from computers, so people have to do the thinking. It's not unlikely that computers will be the ones that provide many of the answers because the problems require so much processing, geographically diverse information, and rapidly changing data. Such computers are a few quantum jumps from where we are, but people will make each jump when the technology shows a hint of promise, or when an opportunity or disaster large enough is at hand.

      --
      Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
    18. Re:utilities are important by hachete · · Score: 1

      In the UK Health Service there's been a scare about cleanliness in hospitals, and the bug MRSA running rampant. Now part of the problem is down to the nurses, and they took a fuck-load of blame but the other part of the equation is that the hospital authorities ("trusts" as they're called now) used "normal" business logic and immediately tried to save money by *outsourcing* cleaning; and so IMO, this started the decline. The problem is that that cleanliness is a core function for hospitals, and saving money by outsourcing you always lose a degree of control. As anyone who's used sub-contractors will tell you.

      --
      Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
    19. Re:utilities are important by jsiren · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It seems utilities are surprisingly hard to understand. Drink a two-liter bottle of a caffeinated beverage and tell me plumbing has no value. Or get your hands dirty and tell me the same. Or try hiring anybody, let alone halfway competent, to a company that doesn't waste money to such worthless things as toilets.

      In any business larger than a small shop there are usually several toilets for capacity and redundancy. One can be down for a long time without an adverse effect, provided that it's properly sealed from the rest of the network. This bears a remarkable similarity to a setup of multiple redundant servers. In fact, a large establishment that gets large peak loads may have one or more clusters with several toilets, urinals, and sinks in a single room connected to shared plumbing; similarly, a large establishment that gets large peak loads may have one or more clusters with several servers, load balancers, and storage systems in a single room connected to shared networks. Then again, if you live in an apartment with just one toilet, you want it fixed pretty darn quick.

      If the availability of toilets goes down for some reason, the performance of the affected workers can be assumed to go down, since a worker on a "nature call" is longer away from their desk. Unless sitting at a desk is counterproductive, and getting up and meeting some new people actually improves results... At a customer service location, at least if food or drinks are served, it's important that a customer toilet be available. And if a toilet is available, it had better be in a working condition; a broken toilet is worse than none at all.

      --
      Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
    20. Re:utilities are important by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      Think RAVEN - Remember, Affect Verb, Effect Noun

      Thanks for that, very useful. I will do my very best to effect that change, although the effect may be to effect a gerund somewhere. I distrust gerunds, believing them to be an affectation.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    21. Re:utilities are important by cavebison · · Score: 1

      I can name a couple of basic utilities where things are constantly shifting.

    22. Re:utilities are important by JFitzsimmons · · Score: 1

      Why didn't you name them then?

      --
      Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. -Anonymous
    23. Re:utilities are important by cavebison · · Score: 1

      It was a joke. Obscure I guess.. utilities.. stuff shifting.. poo.

      A poo joke that stunk.

    24. Re:utilities are important by wintermute000 · · Score: 1

      Hear hear

      And if you think IT is bad (I'm in data / VOIP networks), wait till you see how the business sees voice expenses (used to maintain PABXs), then compare to how loudly they scream when their phones (or even telephone banking 1300 IVRs etc.... I'm talking about banks here!) go down

    25. Re:utilities are important by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      But does the plumbing infrastructure need to be redone every few years?

      Let's try and think in those terms: back in the 80s, employees dribbled crap down the pipes at a snail's pace - think soda straws. Over time, that has grown by 2-3 orders of magnitude, so now they each have a pet elephant producing shit for others' consumption. the volume is quite a bit higher, and it has to be transported all over the world. Of course you're going to need an upgrade.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  2. Maintaining the pretence of superiority by h4rm0ny · · Score: 5, Insightful


    They missed something off the list. One of the biggest, if not the biggest barriers I see is the desperate attempts of managers to pretend they know more than their staff. This is never more apparent than in computers and the painful experiences I have had with managers who have to try and justify a higher salary whilst doing something which, at the end of the day, is less critical to the production of a product or service than the people who are actually developing it, have left me with nothing but pity for those managers. It's a terrible burden to have to try and instruct someone who knows a lot more about how to accomplish something than you do, and it tends to result in interference or denigration. Only a few non-technical managers I have had have had the confidence or humility to just ask me what the best thing they should decide is. And they were the best managers.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    1. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Shados · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be fair, you have to realise how crappy at decision making most IT people are... If all managers had that "humility", even more projects would fail than they do now...

      Manager: "Hmm....well, on this decision, I guess I'll have to delegate to you. Now, honestly, what do you think we should do??"
      Dev: "Scrap the java codebase and start over from scratch in Ruby on Rails"
      Manager: "Hmm...didn't we work on this for 10 years and have millions of lines of code invested, including stuff that we can't readily replace because we're still trying to replace that last senior dev?"
      Dev: "Scrap the codebase and start over"
      Manager: "Well...ok!"

      That wouldn't go too well :) Now, some IT people have good decision making skills and can readily assist managers... but thats rare :)

    2. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by DavidHumus · · Score: 1

      One of the best managers I had was one who pretended no such thing. He gave us credit for being knowledgeable in our field and trusted what we told him. He saw his job as standing between us and higher management as a buffer and as an advocate (both ways).

    3. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you have the manager of accounting, HR, and sales with budget control and they are making purchasing decision of their IT equipment, you end up with a bunch of stuff that may or may not work together, may or may not work as planned, and an IT department struggling to make it work after the fact which makes them look bad. This increases the complexity of things removing many chances for automation and reduces the IT departments productivity which then raises costs and no one is happy. There is no way in hell that a manager of accounting has the resources or experience to make the best IT decisions, all they have is signature ability and many different sales reps hounding them to buy buy buy and giving them empty promises knowing the end of the budget year is approaching. THAT DOES NOT WORK! This is strickly opinion but that manager now also has to justify the decisions he made and may incorrectly try to place the blame on the IT department for failing to get it to work as advertised.

      A "single" strong IT manager/department that works with the people in the different departments help determine their needs will provide a much better experience for everyone involved. You have the department expressing a goal and the IT department choosing the way to reach that goal. I've worked at both type of places.

    4. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Linker3000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      or in my case...

      Me: "I have fleshed out our draft spec for the new Web site through a series of phone calls and emails over the last few weeks and the developers say they will be able to meet perhaps 80-90% of what you want by the tight deadline you have set and then they will roll out the remaining features over the next couple of weeks."

      Director: "I am really concerned that the developers are so far away in another country"

      Me: "Distance is not really a problem these days - and in any case, I have sounded out several of their customers and UK contacts and they have all recommended this team. Overall, they can do the job for a very good fee + offer the after-sales support."

      Director: "I will think about it"

      Email from Director 3 days later at 8pm one night:

      "I have spoken to a friend and he has recommended a local company he knows so I have given them the contract."

      So, for 3x the cost and over 8 months late we got a half-assed, closed-sourse site with bits still missing.

      Boy do I feel valued round here. Thinking of moving? Funny you should say that...

      --
      AT&ROFLMAO
    5. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are Two Different types of IT projects.
      Operation Management Systems (OMS)
      and
      Business Intelligence or Decision Support Systems. (BI/DSS)

      OMS are the mission critical systems which need to run perfectly on time and efficiently. These are the programs that keep the business running smoothly.

      BI/DSS are jobs that try to take and represent data so it can be understood clearly without information overload. These systems run with margins of errors based a lot of statistics can be down for a few days or months without effecting daily operations. But their value is giving management and the decision makers information to make good decisions for the future. A silly app that seems to say track marketing calls how much time they take on each call to who. Then could be put into a Data Warehouse linked with the HR systems and Sales and find that some marketing people spend to much time with small customers and less with big customers who can greatly effect their profit and save on marketing costs.

      iT departments often have a hard time with BI/DSS because they are loose nebulous systems, that are continually changing and evolving, often run very slowly because they are using loosely tied togeter data, often in bad formats... But they do have a value, many times these values are the difference of surviving and dieing as a company.

      So I would take a step back if I were you and try to see what the value of the request. It may not be someone just trying to show that they are HIP with IT, but actually working for getting real value out of their IT

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Reverend528 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps more projects should fail. There are times when scrapping the codebase and starting over from scratch is the best option. But most people will resist taking this step because it involves admitting failure. Instead they just continue to throw money at a worthless project that will likely never succeed.

    7. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I learned this lesson on early. Except it was more crude ....

      "It's not what you know, its who you blow."

      Back in the late 90s, I got a nice generic RFP for a website for a local business development group, and spent two solid weeks developing a detailed website development plan, including creating an ad revenue stream and offered it up for free to them. I wanted the contacts from the other businesses and figured that I would get some of those businesses. My bid was the only qualifying bid response to the RFP. So, did I get the bid? NO! Why? Because there was only ONE qualifying bid. They took my bid, respecified the new RFP based on many if not all of the proposals I had in my original bid. Did I get the bid? NO.

      And the business development group paid through the nose for a website that sucked and didn't meet any of the expectations. The president of the group asked me to join the group, knowing I was pissed and what for.

      His response, "That's business, get over it".

      I looked at him and said, "You're not getting my business, ever. That's business, get over it" The look on his face was classic.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    8. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      I got out of IT for basically the same reason. Shoestring budget. Luddite managers. Just not worth the headache. Drafting & design is much more rewarding for me.

      Of course, now that they've contracted out the IT department here, I get all the questions when the IT guy isn't around.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    9. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Shados · · Score: 1

      From my experience, when a codebase is bad, everyone knows it really quick, and has already admitted failure years ago. Its just (and thats statistically shown in countless studies) that restarting a codebase from scratch is the fastest way to bankrupcy.

      No, remaking a 40 screen web apps from scratch doesn't count. Not the same level as I'm talking about.

    10. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by sharkey · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's not who you know or who you blow.

      It's how much you can swallow.

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    11. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by street+struttin' · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with most of this. We have separate groups for business and application development/support. The business people sometimes think they are smarter than the app developers and try to build their own apps in Excel or Access or whatever. The problem is that these apps are easy enough to use that in small scales that they are able to actually get things to work. But once the app outgrows its initial user base, they never scale well. And of course, it is up to the app support teams to fix whatever horrible mess they are handed.

      Try this with a plumber some time. Start a job (changing the fixtures on a bathtub) and call the plumber and get him to finish it when it's half done. Most likely he'll either charge you way more than if you just called him in the first place, or he'll rip it all out and start over AND charge you more than if you had just called him in the first place.

    12. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. I have a short list of companies that will never EVER, get my business or work. They have been notified of that fact.

      funny part most are lawyers. Those guys are scumbags that dont pay their bill or try and scam you out of free "consulting". I refuse to do any home integration, home theaters or home automation for a lawyer unless they pay up front. They certainly dont get any IT work or consulting until they pay.

      It's sad, that the guys you have to use to go after crooks are crooks themselves.

    13. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Teflon_Jeff · · Score: 1

      YES!! I see this far too often at my work, where management is determined by who believes the BS and is willing to help spout it.

      "No, of course we don't want them thinking for themselves. Especially Jeff, he always finds these huge holes in our ideas."

      Of course, when the problem does arise in 2 months that I predicted, I make sure to remind them.

      ID 10 T error in management.

      --
      "Teach a man to build a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life."
    14. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is called "fishing for free consulting work", and it's the reason why you don't do 2 weeks of free work on spec. Sell a discovery phase if it's necessary. The client should be expected to try to get as much as they can for as little as they can, and in this case that was 2 weeks of your work and for nothing. Makes good business sense for them.

    15. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


      Heh. Nice come back. I hope you learnt your lesson, though. I think a lot of us have been through that. I always charge a nominal fee up front for consulting, reclaimable against the cost of the finished project if I receive the full contract.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    16. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by kotj.mf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Word. I've had more of a management role lately, and it's amazing what bullshit some IT folks sling when they assume the suit on the other end of the conversation is clueless. It seems to be most prevalent when the IT guy in question is relatively young, and while brilliant in some areas, he thinks he has something to prove in the areas he's weak in. Listen, chief, you're an ace programmer. That's awesome. I don't expect you to also be a senior Unix admin, SAN engineer, and a CCIE. So when I ask you a question that's beyond your area of expertise, don't lie to me. Wasting my time is a far more career limiting move than telling me "I dunno. Let's get some research and/or outside consulting." And FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, don't start a scorched earth, fur flying argument when a mere manager dares question your judgment. Unlike you, I've been in the industry for many years. Unlike you, I've worked at all kinds of organizations, large and small. Unlike you, our employer has seen fit to make me responsible for the livelihoods of you and your coworkers. What I'm saying is: YOU DON'T KNOW ME. I know that these kinds of IT folks are few and far between, but it's the ones who conform to the stereotypes that give the rest of us a bad name.

      --
      hang brain.
    17. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by rsborg · · Score: 1

      Me: "I have fleshed out our draft spec for the new Web site through a series of phone calls and emails over the last few weeks and the developers say they will be able to meet perhaps 80-90% of what you want by the tight deadline you have set and then they will roll out the remaining features over the next couple of weeks." Director: "I am really concerned that the developers are so far away in another country"
      You should realize that Trust = Competency + Compassion. It's clear your director did not trust the developers you quoted, because he didn't trust that a long-distance project could work.

      The way I've found to discourage this kind of thinking is to show your decision maker just how close the world is today. Have him talk with the dev team (or team lead). Do a video conference over Skype. Show track record for the development team if possible.

      People make decisions with their heart. If the decision maker doesn't have a direct (good) experience with global development teams, then they won't feel good about implementing them.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    18. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      The client should be expected to try to get as much as they can for as little as they can, and in this case that was 2 weeks of your work and for nothing. Makes good business sense for them.

      Unfortunately, too many "business people" think that unfettered cheapness *is* good business sense, but the fact is that is often not the case.

      I learned a lesson about this in one of my earliest jobs. A company I worked for had just hired a young woman to handle their accounting/bookkeeping that was formerly done by the owner's wife. Shortly after she was hired and while the boss was away on vacation, she looked through the bills for office supplies and determined that many items could be more cheaply procured elsewhere, so she established an account with a cheaper vendor and order the cheaper items. When the boss got back from vacation, the original vendor called him back very upset, as they had had an agreement where the company was getting very favorable prices on big ticket items which was balanced out by paying somewhat higher prices for the nickel-and-dime stuff, not to mention the fact that their service was always great. So the boss went back to the new bookkeeper, had her cancel the account with the new cheaper vendor, and made a point to explain in the presence of all of us that business relationships are not always determined by the absolutely cheapest price, and that honoring agreements and preserving your good reputation are often more valuable than saving a few bucks. That was a lesson that has always stuck with me.

      Unfortunately, concepts such as "honor" and "good reputation" seem long forgotten in much of the business world today. More people need to adopt the position of the GP and when people play cut-throat, refuse to do business with them.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    19. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by Bombula · · Score: 1
      One of the biggest, if not the biggest barriers I see is the desperate attempts of managers to pretend they know more than their staff.

      This is just bad management. Managers aren't supposed to be experts in every specialized field or function. Rather, they have an obligation to understand the capabilities and limitations of experts and specialized functions so that they can make well-informed decisions. Good management is simply about making decisions and taking responsibility for them. A good manager isn't the guy who knows how to MacGuyver a pager and a few soupcans into a working server when the IT department has a meltdown. A good manager is the guy who genuinely understands what his teams and their various systems are capable of and knows exactly how this threads together with what the organization is trying to achieve.

      It's like driving a car. You don't have to be an engineer to be a great F1 driver, but you do have to know and appreciate what your pit crew is capable of if you want to win races.

      --
      A-Bomb
    20. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Yea when I get new guys like that withing the first month or so I usually technically one up him as much as I can. He puts Linux on his PC, I put FreeBSD on mine. If I give him a simple project and it if is taking too long then Ill get it done within a few hours... Of course I try to balance it with giving him some things that he is good at and have him do and reward him for the good work for me just so he doesn't feel abused, or unneeded. But the problem espectially with New IT workers they feel like their skills are irreplaceable, that there are a big hot shot IT guy where THE MAN is keeping him down. Where in reality his skill sets are a dime a dozen. Once they realize that then they normally get better except for trying to proove how smart they are they actually start listening and learning. Being a good IT worker is not being a good technoligist. It is about being a Good Technolist and a Good Buisness Person.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    21. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


      Well I fully agree with you. It is bad mangagement. The problem comes about when you have an artificial hierarchy imposed, a hierarchy in which the manager has to pretend that they're more capable than their staff. You're absolutely right that the manager should recognize the division of work and stick to doing the actual management work. The problem is that quite often, this naturally puts the manager in a supporting role, taking care of all the ancillary duties to allow a developer to get on with their work and produce what they're supposed to produce. A lot of managers are uncomfortable with the implications of that because, lets be honest, it doesn't really justify being the one with the higher salary giving orders top down. And that's when you get attempts to reinforce their authority by avoiding listening or asking for information, let alone accepting guidance from "their staff."

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    22. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by NateTech · · Score: 1

      The opposite is often true, too:

      Manager: "I need you to put a 'Next Action' in your trouble tickets every week so they don't show up on the dashboard and drag me into a manager's meeting about them."

      Dev/Tech: "Um, the ticket is in 'Pending/Customer Action' status and clearly has notes in it that show we're waiting for the customer to do months of testing our bad code forced upon them when we released a huge patch that touched virtually everything in the software."

      Manager: "Yeah, but that doesn't matter. Team, gather around. See all these choices in the drop-down box? They're great but the upper management doesn't even see them on their reports. What the criteria for tickets are is to have a 'Next Action' activity in every ticket every week, no matter what else is in there."

      Dev/Tech: "So what you're saying is, just ignore the other data points and drop downs and every activity can be labeled 'Next Action' and no one will care?"

      Manager: "Well, it'll keep me from having to go to that meeting and explain your tickets to half the world! I already know you're doing your jobs, but they only have their reports and I'm required to go if the tickets are not done correctly."

      Dev/Tech: "Okay we can do that. What about the actual ticket status field? When it says "Pending/Customer Action" shouldn't that be a criteria for their report? It's right there, and we have been using it since we never got any training on the business rules about what to use in this ticket software."

      Manager: "Doesn't matter. If you go in on Monday nights and put a 'Next Action' in every ticket you have open, that meets the criteria. We also think you might have to type a space or a period into the ticket description to update the 'Last Updated' date/time field, because it appears that it doesn't update when you add 'Next Action' activities, but we're still checking on that one."

      Dev/Tech: "Awesome. Well at least we know. Why did we install this expensive bloatware ticket system that cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars in consultants just to get it working, when the old system worked fine?"

      Manager: "Doesn't matter. You're not management, you don't get to ask those questions."

      Dev/Tech: "Doesn't have anything to do with the CEO of the ticket software living in the same neighborhood in California as our CEO, does it?"

      Manager: "Really?"

      Dev/Tech: "Really. They probably play golf together."

      The names have been changed to protect the "innocent", on this one -- of course. And the bloatware is web-based Siebel versus the desktop version. One customized for a giant company, the other customized (very well) for a small one, by managers who knew what data they wanted out of it BEFORE it was deployed.

      Fully expecting the "Siebel cleanup task-force" in about a year or two, complete with "representatives" from each department who will be as ignored as they were during the roll-out of THIS version.

      We get nice timely updates in e-mail every couple of weeks, sometimes every month, about the four or five little bugs they "worked hard on fixing" in fields only 10 people in the company use... those are nice. They apparently have a whole staff of developers and consultants working on these bugs, forever.

      Ticket systems run amok are always my favorite "mangement has no idea what they want" stories... they drive the requirements, spend years making "mock-ups" of the screens and reports, and then seem to find out later that that's NOT HOW THEIR OWN BUSINESS RUNS and never did. Very entertaining, but wastes a lot of time and money...

      Oh well. Once someone TELLS you how to manipulate the ticket system the way management wants it manipulated, the game's over. You ignore every other of the 40 or so fields and drop-downs and do your work, make notes, and get things done as usual... the notes tell the story for your 1st level manager, and they're responsible (as always) for your work anyway, so the ticket system's reports are massa

      --
      +++OK ATH
    23. Re:Maintaining the pretence of superiority by steeler359 · · Score: 1

      From the point of view of the "new IT guy", it's not always like this...

      Some background: I started a new job in a small company after five years of self-teaching various sysadmin skills whilst ostensibly being a Windows desktop support monkey. Then I moved to a 10 person company supporting Linux servers (mainly over the phone). There was a hella lot of technical to learn, just to keep my head anywhere near the surface of the metaphorical water. As it turned out, there was even more, as the company suffered a bit of a brain drain (all the techies leaving) within six months of me starting, and really I should have been thinking in terms of strategy, admin, accounting and, God forbid, *SALES* in that time, instead of just support, which was taking up 90% of my day anyway.

      15 months after I started there, the company went under, and I was left high and dry - they didn't even pay us our last paycheque. As an aside, I also had a brand new mortgage and the birth of my second daughter was imminent, but that's a different story...

      A couple of months later, I started a new job at a multinational company. Yay! Job security. But again, I was the new guy. It wasn't like I had anything to prove, but I was on a 6-month "probationary" period, when I could have been let go with almost no notice, and be right back in the shit again. This was just under two years ago, and finances are only just improving now.

      Something I learned from the last few years is that it takes a while to become familiar with any support role, particularly when dealing with a bespoke app (as I was in both these cases). There's also other things like networks, processes etc. to learn, and for me that takes good year or so.

      SO I guess what I'm trying to say is that the new guy always seeming like they have something to prove may not always be they way it seems. Sometimes it's just trying to prove that they're as good as they said they were in the interview, and for God's sake, please don't kick our arse back onto the street, when there's food to be put on the table.

      --
      There's no place like /~
  3. No surpise. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The top execs are the true victims of the IT bubble and nonsense IT sales pitches they bought into that ended up just costing them and their company valuable time and resources. Add to that the possibility that they lost boatloads of personal capital on IT stocks, it should be enough to justify their phobia for the sector altogether.

    To us IT folk, the nonsense might seem clear, but to those who are targeted and easily confused, treading waters softly is really a matter of safety, not ignorance.

    1. Re:No surpise. by 1024 · · Score: 1

      The rise and power (as in functinality) of IT has been a complete Black Swan to the Business side of the world. It is now surprise at all that they should not have a clue...

    2. Re:No surpise. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Ooh those poor top execs. I just feel so darn bad about them. What's that I hear? It sounds like a bittersweet melody played on the worlds tiniest violin.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:No surpise. by syousef · · Score: 1

      The top execs are the true victims of the IT bubble

      Oh yes. The poor execs. With their yachts, and their millions in severance pay, and their ability to move on and destroy a whole other company since they now have experience. Boo hoo. Poor execs. We should start a fund for them or something.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  4. IT attitudes by p51d007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Perhaps the reason some businesses "don't want the headache" is do to the attitude of some IT departments. In my dealings, some of them (READ SOME) have the attitude that they are doing you a favor, just talking to you.

    1. Re:IT attitudes by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the reason some businesses "don't want the headache" is do to the attitude of some IT departments. In my dealings, some of them (READ SOME) have the attitude that they are doing you a favor, just talking to you.

      They are. Tactical and strategic decisions rely on good information, and that means information technology. Without them, you're deaf, dumb and blind.

      When you get down to it, an organization relies on the executive to have a "big picture" view and use that perspective to bring an intelligence to the actions of those that operate underneath them. As information technology makes this big picture easy to see for every member of the organization, it carves into the tasks that made the executive important in the first place.

      Perhaps they're conscious of that threat?

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    2. Re:IT attitudes by Capt+James+McCarthy · · Score: 1

      'Perhaps the reason some businesses "don't want the headache" is do to the attitude of some IT departments. In my dealings, some of them (READ SOME) have the attitude that they are doing you a favor, just talking to you.' Hey, "Screw You!" is a valid response for any request. However, as for the attitude, try this one; Some IT folks were to working 16 hour days and being told, "So sorry, no overtime for you. Don't like it, look else where for work then." Now do you think that fosters a 'good attitude?' The previous is not limited to the IT department though. And I do get tired of telling users that they cannot have root access time and time again. Yet, I get accused of the one having an attitude. Remarkable. (I do it matter of factly, not with tone)

      --
      There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
    3. Re:IT attitudes by lukas84 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ah well, it's not easy. I sometimes catch myself drifting into that habit after particularly stressful days. I work in a Small Business (~30 People) that is an ERP ISV and sells some amount of IT services to other Small Businesses.

      Dealing with customers is easy - they know that you're on a clock, and every minute wasted is THEIR money wasted. As such, most customers don't call unless it's important, and when they call they tend to keep it as short as possible. On site visits happen of course, for larger work or if the customers wants to (We have several customers that prefer to pay for on-site service rather than online service - nothing wrong with that).

      Dealing with customers is easy. Now, another part of my job is to take care of internal IT. With a large amount of technical people, we don't have any draconian IT policies - if you want to have local admin rights, you can have them. I will try to fix the problem, but if i can't all i can offer you is a redeploy of the base image. If you don't want to have local admin rights, everything will be maintained by us, and if something breaks it's our fault.

      This policy has worked really well for us in the past few years. But the problems mostly come with the non-technical personnel that sometimes have insane ideas, wishes, or no idea on how we are organized.

      "I need a new mouse" - "Ask your department head, i can't buy stuff, only your dept head can approve that"

      15 min later

      "x told me that you don't want them to get a new mouse"
      *argh*

      And of course stupid questions like

      "Yahoo Messenger Video Chat doesn't work"
      "Well, i don't care. You're allowed to install the software and use it according to our executives, but i'm not going to waste time on getting it working for you"

      "x told me that you don't fix their computer"
      *argh*

      Such occurences really piss me off, because I think i do understand that IT only has value if it improves the productivity of employees. I'm also willing to try and solve all the Business problems that we have, but i can only solve one at a time. And no, i don't care about Yahoo Messenger or some other such bullshit you found somewhere on the web.

    4. Re:IT attitudes by Darth_Burrito · · Score: 1

      In my dealings, some of them (READ SOME) have the attitude that they are doing you a favor, just talking to you.

      Sometimes they are doing you a favor by listening to a particular request or complaint. It depends on the work load and what kind of services are mandated. At my job, I do development, administration, and support. When a user asks me for help doing something in Word, I'll almost always try to help them. However, sometimes we're really really busy with important things and don't have time to show people how to do things when they should be able to figure it out on their own.

      From another perspective, when I help a guy with 3 office questions a week, I am doing him a favor because I'm taking time away from more important issues to cover his ass by helping him do things that he should know how to do or at least be able to figure out as part of his job. Half the time I just do a google search. With certain people, every time they can't figure out how to do a mail merge, it is IT's fault, which is kinda the reverse of the attitude you were describing in some IT staff.

      Interesting aside. At my last job, I worked for a tech company with a large number of generic office workers. Since they were a tech company, they required all their employees to take a basic computer literacy test as a prerequisite to employment. My current employer is an engineering college with lots of PhDs but poor computer skills. Despite the fact that we delivered far far far less end user support at the first job, satisfaction and relationships with the IT department were better than at the present job.

    5. Re:IT attitudes by Arccot · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the reason some businesses "don't want the headache" is do to the attitude of some IT departments. In my dealings, some of them (READ SOME) have the attitude that they are doing you a favor, just talking to you. I think that's a big part of it. Attitude is important. It's tough to balance your attitude to make everyone happy, though.

      You can't be over-eager to fix someone's computer, or they'll come to you every time they want to change their desktop background.

      You can't make the work seem over-easy, or management might think it can be done by less people or someone less qualified.

      In addition, you have to educate the people willing to learn about what you're doing. That includes management and individual employees. Many people still see IT as a black magic of sorts, and think it's scary and dangerous information. To a business, it's just a set of tools to improve profitability.
    6. Re:IT attitudes by adamruck · · Score: 1

      When a problem user comes to you:

      1) Listen to the request
      2) Politely say, "Sorry but I'm terribly busy at the moment, please email me and I will respond ASAP".

      If you do this:

      1) You spend less face time with problem users
      2) Some users will get in the habit of emailing, which is nice
      3) You will have a record of the requests and responses
      4) You will work more efficiently because you don't stop working on your current task every time a new task pops in the queue

      --
      Selling software wont make you money, selling a service will.
    7. Re:IT attitudes by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      I tried that, but most users found that to be really rude. Maybe it's cultural thing.

    8. Re:IT attitudes by rabt68 · · Score: 1

      As an IT professional I agree that we sometimes come across with an "attitude". But in out defense I would give this comparison... If you went to the store and the cashier did not know how to use the register, wouldn't you be annoyed? The IT dept. is there to suppy you with the tools to help you perform your job and they don't mind answering questions until the same question is asked a thousand times (especially if it comes from the same person). Some people do not try to learn the software/hardware they just want someone to always be there to do it for them. There are some end users that just should find new jobs that use the phrase "do you want frys with that". I am not saying all end users are like this. Some honestly want to learn the software and hardware they use. Unfortunately corporations spend millions on purchasing the latest technolgy and they spend almost nothing to send the end users to classes to learn the software.

    9. Re:IT attitudes by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I've seen IT groups that have a severe disconnect with the business that they're supposed to be helping. They're often more autonomous organizations than a part of the team. When a service group is seen as a bureaucratic hurdle to doing business by the rest of the company, no wonder it gives management headaches. Their job should be to make things run smoothly so that revenue increases for the company as a whole. The problem seems to get worse as a company grows in size; small companies are quick to recognize when the few IT staff are more hindrance then help, but at large companies the IT department practices are often accepted as just the way things are done.

      The article is right in many ways though. IT people do speak their own incomprehensible language; but it's not a technical language, it's a business-speak, with metrics and procedures and department created acronyms. As the disconnect starts, IT people often become further isolated, locked off in their own wing or building and seen only through email, and the rest of the company are mere "users" (not even rising to the level of "customer", much less "co-worker").

    10. Re:IT attitudes by gr8scot · · Score: 1

      I tried that, but most users found that to be really rude. Maybe it's cultural thing. I doubt it. I don't know your users, but when mine pull that routine they're pretending to find the request for e-mail rude because they knew that making the same frivolous request via e-mail would create a record of the request and that they had no business wasting my time with those requests in the first place.
      --
      All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..
  5. If only we were treated as well as utilities by Cerberus7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Where I work, our Facilities department gets whatever it wants. They take care of the generators, the lights, the A/C, etc. All things this place needs to keep running. We IT people get shafted at every opportunity because we "cost money," yet we take care of the servers and applications that keep this place running. Turn our stuff off, and it's as detrimental to the business as turning off all the lights. I can only dream of what being treated like a utility would be like. It must be nice.

    --
    I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    1. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by jrumney · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps you should start encouraging equal recognition by lobbying management for pay parity with your facilities department.

    2. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by mh1997 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We IT people get shafted at every opportunity because we "cost money," yet we take care of the servers and applications that keep this place running. Turn our stuff off, and it's as detrimental to the business as turning off all the lights.
      That is the IT Manager's fault. He/She should be selling the value of the department. You don't need to sell upper management the value of a phone, toilet, or lights because they were sold the value when they were kids - at home. However, their home probably did not have an IT closet next to the utility closet. Sure, in the back of their minds they know computers help productivity, but the value of the department hasn't been sold.
    3. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by Cerberus7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You maybe are being sarcastic, but the average salary of our maintenance staff is the same as the average salary of our IT staff.

      --
      I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    4. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by bberens · · Score: 1

      If your office is anything like any other corporate office I know of your mail server goes down a lot more often than your A/C. Your internet connection is considerably less reliable than your lights or the toilets. You also make about twice as much money as the facilities guy. If your services are truly equally valuable then you need to be prepared to offer the same level of service for the same pay. But you can't. You require a LOT more pay for worse service. *shrug*

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    5. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by Cerberus7 · · Score: 1

      Oh, if only that were true. See, we have this brand-spanking-new building with motion-activated paper-towel dispensers, automatic flushers in the toilets, and the fancy-pants climate control system. Things are failing CONSTANTLY. You can't keep a room at a constant temperature no matter what you do. The flushers like to flush _immediately_ after you stand up, and spray you with flush water before you can get your pants up. They also like to stop working altogether, and there's no manual flush outside of a button that engages the automatic device. If the autoflusher is busted, that button does nothing, and you leave behind a nice stinky mess for somebody else to discover.

      In contrast, since this building opened, I have had exactly 3 service failures. Each lasted between 5 and 15 minutes. Nobody seems to notice this discrepancy, though, and facilities still gets a blank check for anything they need. I have to beg and plead for just a few thousand dollars.

      --
      I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    6. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 1

      Of course, when there's a facilities issue, they generally know the cause and what the fix would be within 30 minutes, if that. If it's an IT issue, it could take hours or days to even figure out the cause. And from my personal experience, if something physical breaks (a conveyor, a machine, etc.), facilities is out there within 10 minutes to look at it. If there's an IT issue, I first need to sit on hold for an hour to get through to the help desk, and once they realize it's a major issue, I may have to wait hours or a day before I see anyone in person.

    7. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by profplump · · Score: 1

      I think you're wrong on all counts:

      A) The average office building could have the A/C off 65% of every week without affecting perceived quality of service. If IT had those kinds of maintenance windows on an email server I bet you'd never notice the downtime. Even for always-on systems like data-center cooling, the A/C undergoes regular maintenance and downtime, which is why no one installs a data center with a single cooling system.

      B) Chiller maintenance is big business and even the techs they actually send out to do it make good money, on-par with grunt-level IT staff. And their bosses make more, just like yours do. The contracted cleaning crew making $8/hour is not doing your chiller maintenance (or if they are, you're gonna be in trouble next summer).

      C) Comparing an "email service" to "lights" is like saying "but my bicycle never needs an oil change". Electric lights are 100+ year old technology with exactly one dependency -- electricity (and not even clean power at that) -- and one failure mode -- irreparably damaged. If your email server only needed electricity and could simply be replaced with a spare when it failed I'll bet IT could keep a few on-hand and give you similar reliability.

    8. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      The squeaky wheel (or broken toilet) gets the cash......

      Sounds like a time for the CEO's blackberry to stop working for a day or two.....especially if it's one where he's out golf---err meeting with his buddies and *their* blackberry's are still working. Don't bring the mail server down completely, because you don't want to hold the company hostage.....but a few hiccups here and there will probably get some money thrown your way.

      Layne

    9. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Over here the aircond regularly has problems - too hot, too cold, not working etc.

      And the power goes off every now and then - the entire office has blackouts maybe once a year or so.

      While it's true that the mail server does have problems from time to time, that's probably because the IT dept decided to switch to Microsoft Exchange.

      In contrast the servers I take care of don't go down very often. Maybe once every year or two, one of them has downtime- when the network connection failed or the colo had to do some stuff or the ISP brilliantly decides to give someone else our IP. Now in theory the IT dept or somebody else should be taking care of those servers - since I'm supposed to be a _developer_, but it's been hard to try to hand it to someone else.

    10. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by BVis · · Score: 1

      If there's an IT issue, I first need to sit on hold for an hour to get through to the help desk, and once they realize it's a major issue, I may have to wait hours or a day before I see anyone in person.
      That's because your IT department is understaffed. If you want that fixed, go to upper management with a list of your experiences and request that the situation be corrected. If upper management doesn't fix the staffing issue, then the fault lies with THEM when you're on hold for an hour.

      Most IT workers work as hard as is physically possible and they still will never meet the demands from business. Ever wonder why IT folks are surly? It's because they're burnt out from overwork and lack of management support.
      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    11. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's because your services are so reliable that management sees no need to invest any more money. Why fix something that isn't broken?

      If everything facilities is responsible for is always breaking down someone needs to spend money either repairing or replacing it.

      Maybe you need to make your servers less reliable to encourage that investment in your department.

      It's kind of sad, but often that seems to be the case. It reminds me of how my state bases next year's snow removal budget on this year's winter. So the following winter inevitably is worse and they need to draw from emergency funds to continue snow removal. It basically encourages waste so that departments continue getting what they want from the state.

    12. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      In answer to C), blade servers are getting close.

      A light requires electricity, a mounting socket, and a control mechanism. So does a blade server. And if one fails, you whip it out and slot in a new one. The infrastructure behind the blade is generally more reliable than the individual blades, and incorporates stuff like dual networking and redundant PSUs. Get them configured properly and you literally can put a 'blank' blade into the array and it'll be re-imaged as another mail server.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    13. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 1

      Ever wonder why IT folks are surly? It's because they're burnt out from overwork and lack of management support. Every other department is understaffed, and yet most people are capable of functioning day-to-day without acting like complete douchebags. I consider it a bad sign when people act like they're doing you a favor by fixing a problem that one of them likely caused.
    14. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by wangfucius · · Score: 1

      or MORE likely a problem one of YOU caused Ever wonder why there's such a thing as a help desk? Because You need help, not us If you could concretely point to something IT did to your computer, that's one thing, but I'm willing to bet you don't have a clue as to what any two pieces of your computer do... so your knee-jerk reaction is to blame the people who KNOW what they're doing? that's like blaming a mechanic for the damage done to your corolla after off-roading to baja... you sir, are a fucking idiot and deserve whatever you get from your outsourced help desk...get a clue douchebag

    15. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 1
      See, this is exactly the kind of attitude I was talking about. Thank you for providing such a great example! Regardless, I've got a CS degree and was left without work after the tech bubble burst, so now I'm in Operations Mgmt. So, I *generally* have a clue as to what I'm doing. The issues that I speak of involve:

      1) Someone in IT screwing up a DNS entry and subsequently breaking the DNS tables.
      2) Someone in IT screwing up a route and breaking the route tables.
      3) Someone in IT disconnecting a server "because they thought nobody used it anymore."
      etc.

      The issue is that when I call up the help desk and tell them the problem, the idiots won't listen because they assume you're an idiot luser, and force you to go through a checksheet before doing anything. This regimented idiocy is what ties up the helpdesk lines. Oh, and you're a fucking moron.

    16. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by adamruck · · Score: 1

      I would suggest starting to correlate service failures with denied IT proposals. If you can start to do that, you have a valid point. If you can't, then the management is correct, and you are asking for things you don't need.

      --
      Selling software wont make you money, selling a service will.
    17. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by wangfucius · · Score: 0, Troll

      Dude, a CS degree from ten years ago does not entitle you to a clue now. Go back to cleaning stalls. BTW, what kind of company do you work for that lets mail room clerks check DNS servers? Or were those co-workers of yours during your six months in IT before everybody realized your MCSE was worthless? Either way, I'm not surprised.

    18. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by Anarke_Incarnate · · Score: 1
      I'm glad to know your blade is fully configured upon install, just like the light bulb is. I have used blades. You have to catalog the new serial number (if you want any type of accountability or support), push out the OS and monitoring tools, Push out config changes and recover from tape.

      That is much like "Get Ladder and Light bulb. Unseat bulb, replace bulb, put away ladder and throw out old bulb"

    19. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by magister159 · · Score: 1

      True Story: I worked at a company part time during high school in the IT department. I imaged machines, went out on the floor to troubleshoot, all the standard help desk work. I had a friend who swept the shop floor of the same place. He made $3 an hour more than me.

      The experience made up for the lack of pay, but it irked me at the time.

    20. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      You've clearly never changed a light bulb in a government institution. It's along the lines of risk assess the change, source the new bulb through your contractor, assemble a zip tower (ladders aren't safe), shut down power to the entire section of the building in case somebody turns the light on whilst you're working on it, remove the light bulb, carefully dispose of it in a dedicated bin (Glass!), make a record of that fact to please the auditors so they don't think you've got one too many light bulbs in the building, remove the new light bulb from packaging, make a note of its manufacture code, insert it into the fixture carefully, come down from the tower, turn on all the power to check it works, turn the light off again, go back up the tower to fit any shades or diffusers, come down, disassemble the tower, then record the entire thing in the health and safety paperwork.

      Back on topic, I never said blades were perfect, but that they were getting a lot closer. Google uses network boot to literally unplug a dead machine from their datacentres and shove a new one in - it's reimaged and rebuilt automatically. Blades hand off things like power, network and other IO functions to their chassis. Combine the two and you're onto a winner.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    21. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by Anarke_Incarnate · · Score: 1

      Network boot still needs things like the MAC of the server, as do the new tables in the switches if the policy is harsh. Also, when your new bulb is in place, it WORKS. Imaging and configuring a machine is still a tedious process that takes minutes you may not have. You also have to have spare parts. In an infrastructure where money is tight, try convincing them to have spare ANYTHING, even fans or disk drives is a hard sell. They are the moving parts that are more likely to fail. The top parts to failure are: Disks, Fans, PSUs.

    22. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by jcgf · · Score: 1

      MSCE != CS degree as bicycle != 18-wheeler

      Seriously, only a jerk would equate the 2, and no I don't want to hear your reply about the guy with a CS degree that you knew that was useless, cause I already know that you made it up.

    23. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by dbIII · · Score: 1

      If your office is anything like any other corporate office I know of your mail server goes down a lot more often than your A/C

      That's only those poor sods that were convinced by slick salesfolk that MS Exchange is "enterprise" software and can operate without redundancy or adult supervision by reliable email server software. Even with three of the things you can run into hassles with those guys that absolutely need to send an email at 4am and you lose the patch window - it is not really 24/7 software.

    24. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

      That is the IT Manager's fault. He/She should be selling the value of the department. In many smaller to mid-size organizations, the IT Manager has too little influence to make a difference. All too often, the IT Manager is younger (30 and under) and hired more for his/her technical skills than managerial capabilities. Even an amazing manager can't do much when he or she is expected to make stuff work and isn't really a part of the upper management team.

      IT isn't valued as an integral part of the business. Eventually, you get a self-fulfilling prophesy as the IT team ends up composed of those unable or unmotivated enough to leave and they aren't a valuable part of the business.

    25. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by nbritton · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should demonstrate why your there by turning the equipment off.

    26. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by LinuxDon · · Score: 1

      Quote: "Maybe it's because your services are so reliable that management sees no need to invest any more money. Why fix something that isn't broken?"

      Very good point, this had been the case too in our company.
      See how your live improves as more stuff fails. You might even get a raise when your services fail more often.
      Seems like the utility guys already found this out.

      Something just has to go wrong before things will get improved.

    27. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by BVis · · Score: 1
      Let me address those issues specifically:

      1) DNS changes should happen very rarely. For every call that is generated by a DNS problem, there are 1000 calls about someone forgetting their password.
      2) This should happen even less often than DNS changes.
      3) IT probably sent out several broadcast emails warning the users that a particular machine is being shut down, and if that will cause a problem, IT should be notified so they can react accordingly. If they did not, it's because past experience has told them that nobody will pay attention to that email, because nobody knows what servers they actually use. The best way to figure out who uses a resource is to break it and listen to who complains.

      The issue is that when I call up the help desk and tell them the problem, the idiots won't listen because they assume you're an idiot luser, and force you to go through a checksheet before doing anything. This regimented idiocy is what ties up the helpdesk lines.

      1) The checksheet is there because either a) some management douchebag heard from one of his golf buddies that they helped speed things up, and he was tired of having to wait 20 minutes on hold to complain about how his mailbox quota was full, or b) because 90% of the problems can be identified with the same 6 questions (eg "Have you restarted your machine", "Have you gotten notifications that you need to change your password", "What error message did you get" (and if they don't know, they need to hang up and go find out), "Are you able to open pages in Internet Explorer", and so forth.)
      2) If you think you have a clue, and you don't actually work in IT, then you are part of the problem. You aren't seeing the whole picture; you can't possibly.
      3) The three issues you describe represent about 1% of all the calls that the help desk takes.
      4) The reason the 'idiots' won't listen is because 999 times out of 1000, the person on the other end of the line IS an idiot luser, and they have to kiss their ass and tell them it smells like roses. What they *really* should be able to do is point out the actions the user took to CREATE the problem in the first place. I've worked the help desk at Fortune 500 companies, and on more than one occasion I was reprimanded for telling the user how they created the problem and how to avoid it in the future.

      IT is rarely actually able to do anything about your issue beyond telling you how to avoid it and/or fix it temporarily. Your hostile attitude towards IT is a bigger part of the problem than anything else. When was the last time you said to a help desk worker "Hi, I'm having a problem with x y z, could you please help me out with it" instead of "x y z is broken AGAIN! Why can't you fix it!" You wouldn't call someone in Accounting or Marketing with an issue and immediately start off the call attacking them because you couldn't speak to them RIGHT NOW. There isn't a single other department in most companies where people from other departments get to tell them what's important instead of that department making decisions regarding their core responsibilities. (In other words, you wouldn't call Accounting and tell them they need to process your expense report RIGHT NOW, when there's 150 ahead of yours. I suppose you could call, but they'd probably just let you know that they'll get to it as soon as possible. Your next call wouldn't be to the CFO complaining about how they won't process your expense report.)

      I personally think the help desk should be eliminated in favor of a voicemail type system where you leave a message and the issue is addressed according to the order the messages were received in and/or the severity of the issue (said severity to be determined by IT, NOT some self-important egomaniac user.) Only after the help desk rep has had a chance to review the problem and determine what additional information is needed (if any) or what the source of the problem is should the user be called back.

      (I will let you in on a dirty little secret,

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    28. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 1
      Good points. Though, my major gripe is the holier than thou attitude taken by the staff. I'm guessing "people skills" still isn't a prerequisite for tech support jobs. Oh, and to respond to the car analogy - Would you get pissed at your mechanic if he/she asked:

      Did you try starting the car?
      Did you stick the key in the ignition?
      Was there gas in the car? etc.

    29. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by BVis · · Score: 1

      Maybe the first two, because it's safe to assume a certain level of competence w/r/t driving a car. They make you get a license to drive, so you have to PROVE at some point you know how to start it.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    30. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      If your services are truly equally valuable then you need to be prepared to offer the same level of service for the same pay.

      Management gets the level of service they're willing to pay for. This isn't just salaries, but equipment - I'm not buying the company new hardware on my dime.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    31. Re:If only we were treated as well as utilities by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      Just be glad that you don't work where I do... I'm the director of IT/Network Admin/All in one tech staff and I make less then the Head of maintenance who has a 6 person staff...

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
  6. It's not just management by Sniper98G · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No one (management or not) ever recognizes the value of IT until they don't have it.

    1. Re:It's not just management by Cerberus7 · · Score: 1

      Truth. Big time. We need a world-wide "IT People On Strike" day. Maybe that'll force everyone to realize that we really do have some value in this world. Unfortunately for those of us that keep our stuff together, they probably wouldn't notice because our services would keep working through the whole day.

      --
      I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    2. Re:It's not just management by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately for those of us that keep our stuff together, they probably wouldn't notice because our services would keep working through the whole day.

      Who says that you can't simply turn of the services with a cron-script at midnight and turn them back on with another cron script when the day of strike is done? At least, that's how I'd do it.

    3. Re:It's not just management by hostyle · · Score: 1

      ... more reason to buy MicroSoft then :P

      --
      Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
    4. Re:It's not just management by Cerberus7 · · Score: 1

      I think that moves beyond "strike" and into "sabotage" territory, but if I were ticked off enough, I'd probably do that.

      --
      I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    5. Re:It's not just management by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Not really, if you have a factory and the workers strike, they block the entrance of the factory so that those willing to work can't enter. It's a bit the same: you make sure others can't work because the service you provide (because you get blamed if the shit hits the fan) is not working.

    6. Re:It's not just management by Cerberus7 · · Score: 1

      Alright, you sold me. Viva la revolution!

      --
      I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    7. Re:It's not just management by EMCEngineer · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Not to be an ass but - Boo-fricking-hoo. Lots of people feel unappreciated in their jobs. I just hear IT whine about it way more(maybe because I read Slashdot). Most IT people seem to think the company would implode if they weren't around for one day. Maybe they get this impression from hordes of idiots bothering them all the time for computer help.

      The reality is, IT is overhead. It may make my job, and every else's job, a hell of a lot easier, but it is still a major cost. Spending money on IT past a certain point is unlikely to bring another dime to a company. Once basic networking, servers, vpn, etc. are implemented, IT is just a cost.

      How is IT different than a basic utility? Utilities for most business require some facilities management people, and cutting a check each month. IT requires trained personnel, and a much bigger check each month. Managers don't want to spend their time on what they see as something that should always work, like electric power.

    8. Re:It's not just management by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Because IT can show you which sales people (who are treated like gods) are creating territories full of non-profitable customers.

      Because IT can not only allow- but make the customers eager to- enter their own orders- saving you customer service costs and allow you to do the same work with a lot less people.

      Because IT can take a 4 week manual process which sometimes completely failed and turn it into a 2-3 day process which is fully accountable.

      Because unlike electricity or water, IT changes constantly-- every single day-- and if your company doesn't keep up, the next thing you know you are a year behind your competitors and their costs are 10% lower than yours and you are hemorrhaging customers.

      IT is a lump of clay that can be sculpted into anything.

      ---

      We recently found out that one of the other non-IT departments basically wrote a "system by spreadsheet" which requires over a dozen people to maintain. Their director is protecting them from being automated by IT because he would lose most of those people. So don't come talking to me about "IT COSTS". I think it is really a battle for headcount among the departments.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    9. Re:It's not just management by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      IT is not just a cost. It's actually a source of cost reduction. If you are in development (for support/ops, the argument is a little trickier)...if you are in development, your function is essentially to allow the company to do more work with fewer people. That either frees up a resource to do something else or frees up a resource that the company no longer has to pay. Where I work, our CBA's show, on average, about 9x return on investment. At the end of the project, I think the actuals are closer to 3x or 4x, but still.....for ever $1 spent on IT, the company gets $3 in benefit. That $3 is usually realized through reducing the number of people needed to do a particular task so that they can go work on tasks that are short-handed, but every once in a while, the end result of a project is that departments have to let people go.

      I think the heartburn is that the investment is all up front cost and the payback is over time. Spending $100k on an IT project that takes 6 months probably won't show a return until 6 months after install. A year for break-even. The part they miss is that after another 6 months, they double their investment. This usually happens because of how things are accounted for.....IT's budget takes the hit of the cost and the business partner takes the benefit of the reduction. So, in their mind, IT is an expense.

      Layne

    10. Re:It's not just management by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Well what you could do is become a _100%_ Microsoft shop.

      Then you'll need more staff, larger budgets and more hardware.

      And you'll have higher downtimes - since patches and updates often require the entire system to reboot, and the standard troubleshooting/fixing method is to restart and reboot stuff.

      The result?

      You would be a _boss_ with a significantly higher salary with many people working for you, rather than a sysadmin with time to post on slashdot because he knows how to keep stuff working.

      Now if you knew all this and still did it, it counts as sabotage, if you didn't know then I guess it's what people call choosing the "Industry Standard" ;).

      --
    11. Re:It's not just management by ztcamper · · Score: 1

      My friend called this dehumanization :)
      Him and another guy automate most bureaucratic BS with perl scripts. For everything else there are another 2 people.
      I should get him "Go away or I will replace you with a very small script" shirt for birthday :)

    12. Re:It's not just management by Irish_Samurai · · Score: 1
      Sorry, I gotta call semi bullshit on this one. IT isn't the only one who does this.

      Because IT can show you which sales people (who are treated like gods) are creating territories full of non-profitable customers. So can a good sales/marketing manager with excel. Oh, it's in a database you say? SQL isn't that hard for general, non optimized queries. Good people can do this, not only IT. And IT definitely isn't the ubiquitous facilitator.

      Because IT can not only allow- but make the customers eager to- enter their own orders- saving you customer service costs and allow you to do the same work with a lot less people. No, they believe they can do that. This is the engineering approach to people that dooms IT workers. People don't work like that. People might put in their own orders. People won't do it accurately. SO who is going to fix that mess? You really want to tell the customer that the reason you cannot accept an online order is because they put their information in wrong. Fine, but it doesn't work once the ticket price goes over $300, and it definitely doesn't work in non commodity B2B transactions.

      Because IT can take a 4 week manual process which sometimes completely failed and turn it into a 2-3 day process which is fully accountable. Maybe, but can you do it without changing the end user's general process? Probably not. And the costs of retraining end users is inconsequential to you because it is an externality to your IT department. IT departments often dismiss it with "the end user should...."

      Anytime I hear that I know I am dealing with someone with their head up their ass. Here is the reality, the end user will, can, and does. That's it. If your approach doesn't encompass that mantra, your solutions cost's more than it's worth.

      What IT needs to realize is that upper management views all aspects of operations with 4 criteria in mind, the 4 things that allow a company to make more money.
      1. Does it allow me to raise my price? Not really applicable to most decisions, but one way of a company making more money.
      2. Does it allow me to cut costs? Attacking the bottom line.
      3. Does it allow me to increase productivity? Can I sell more, do more, create more?
      4. Does it mitigate risk? Will it prevent, or compartmentalize, a problem that would cause us to bleed cash?

      If the answer to the above four questions is no, then your management won't give a shit about what you have to offer. It's just a nice idea that you can take and shove up your ass. That is the harsh reality of it.We can pontificate all day on whether or not this is the right way to do things, or why it should be different, or how it really sucks.

      IT doesn't control the money. IT needs the money. IT needs to play by the rules set through the previous two millennium that business has existed to get it. Once IT has been around long enough to affect multiple generations of business workers and have that influence felt across all departments, then MAYBE you will get the credit you feel you deserve.

      You just don't have the length of service record necessary to demand the things you're demanding and be taken seriously. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it is.
    13. Re:It's not just management by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of a dot-bomb story - a buddy of mine took one of those systems in a spreadsheet and turned it into an access database that spit out pretty Word reports via VBA and reduced a days worth of work into five minutes. He'd spend his day sleeping in empty cubes and getting his job done just "on time" like everyone else.

      The only reason he never told anyone about it was to prevent a dozen people from getting fired, or losing his own job.

      So yeah, I think there's plenty of blame to go around, from divisions who buy and implement software from 3rd parties and then expect IT to support it, to people who start projects on the sly that are customer-critical and cost us boatloads of penalty money when the Optiplex 110 workstation it was running on dies.

      Then again, IT is just as much to blame for their surly, "we own the universe" attitudes.

    14. Re:It's not just management by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      But Irish...

      With regard to
            1. Does it allow me to raise my price? Not really applicable to most decisions, but one way of a company making more money.
            2. Does it allow me to cut costs? Attacking the bottom line.
            3. Does it allow me to increase productivity? Can I sell more, do more, create more?
            4. Does it mitigate risk? Will it prevent, or compartmentalize, a problem that would cause us to bleed cash?

      I see management ignore these factors every day. They basically do what they want to do or whatever the latest salesperson to walk in the door tells them is good, often ignoring internal experts. Hell, at my company- 8 years ago, they specifically took people warning of project failure off of the project because it was "upsetting the consultants" and then a year later... it failed horribly.

      Meanwhile good IT will let you do all those four things and yet is ignored. And not just passively ignored but "SHUT UP OR BE FIRED" ignored.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    15. Re:It's not just management by Irish_Samurai · · Score: 1

      Ineffectual middle management acts this way all day, Strategy minded Senior management probably doesn't. If they do, get the hell out of dodge.

      The problem comes with lack of communication. Senior management lays down a decree to fix a problem, and they task middle management with handling it. Middle management then makes some bullshit decisions based on inexperience. The problem isn't that they don't listen to IT, the problem is that they can't separate the wheat from the chaff concerning IT. IT also has no skin in the game concerning the business results of the solution other than "it works according to scope."

      In order to fix this issue you should take the situation at face value and fix it yourself. Is it more realistic to ask business people who have had technology injected into their career halfway through to reestablish their mindset, or is it more practical for the new element to learn the old school rules and "sell" themselves to the internal business elements?

  7. The Cost Of IT by Arccot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The way I usually put it, at least to my company, is that a good IT department can MAKE the company money, rather than cost it money. A good IT department can increase productivity of said company's employees, provide support services to customers (through the web), provide exposure to potential customers (again through the web), and fix the boss's home computer when his daughter breaks it. (Har-Har)

    1. Re:The Cost Of IT by peragrin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IT is a constant drain on money. Plumbing, lights, generators, etc last for YEARS. the average Server hardware last for 3 years if your lucky, and then you need to triple the price for all the software upgrades, then tack on even more for the IT department training, and then employee training for all the new software.

      IT deptarments only cost money with constant upgrades, in hardware and software. Lighting fixtures have a one time cost, and then a minimal replacement cost.

      every 3 years all hardware and software is now useless and needs to be replaced. The real reason no one is moving to Vista. XP is finally starting to pay for itself for businesses who work on decade time frames.

      As soon as IT departments stop asking for money for new software every three months or to sign contracts for software assurance that last for years but provide no benefit IT departments will earn some more respect.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:The Cost Of IT by wangfucius · · Score: 1

      You're obviously not an electrical engineer, a plumber, or an IT guy how about you get your hands on any of the above and tell me how "it all just works" tool

    3. Re:The Cost Of IT by dedalus2000 · · Score: 1

      the reason for the upgrades is not that suddenly all of the servers failed it's because businesses wanted the ability to utilize their IT infrastructure in ways that the old hardware and software wouldn't allow. for example moving from shuttling Excel files around in email to using an ERP. Adding data warehousing so you can mine your historic data and find trends. Creating a web presence to provide prospective customers a simple means of finding you. these are all huge jumps in functionality that require some level of infrastructure investment. the reality is that businesses invest in IT because it gives them a competitive advantage.

      --
      My keyboads not woking popely.
    4. Re:The Cost Of IT by Quince+alPillan · · Score: 2, Funny

      You totally failed to include plumbing analogies in your post.

      When you originally started the business, you only needed a single restroom with a small sink and a toilet. When you hired a few more women, they started complaining about guys and their aim. To satisfy the demand for more restrooms, you added a second restroom so that you could have a Men's and Women's restroom. As your business takes off, you add more and more people and you add more stalls to the current restrooms. Perhaps a second and third floor with restrooms on each floor. Now, you've got so much water coming into the building that you can't get enough water to flush the toilets on both second and third floors at the same time so you add more pipes. Then, sewage drains can't keep up (and start backing up into the basement), so you add more sewer lines.

      Now, you're complaining that you need to upgrade the restrooms every three years and can't understand why plumbing costs so much.

    5. Re:The Cost Of IT by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you work that way, you deserve what you get. Most businesses don't need a whole set of new computers every three years, unless it's a tech business, and that's the cost of being one. Likewise servers...A 5 year old server attached to a decent drive array is plenty of file storage for most medium sized companies. What are you using your servers for that they're gone after three years?

      An intelligent system is to cascade things...Replace a percentage when you have to, and move the machines you replace down along the line to less critical functions. When the power users need new desktops (which isn't that often unless you're doing graphics or something), buy them new machines, and pass their machines down to people whose older machines are wearing out. Etc.

      If you're buying huge software upgrades all the time, you're being foolish. Either your primary software is under a support contract, in which case upgrades are free, or you're just buying tons of over the counter consumer grade crap. The former is a necessary evil, and the latter is an extremely poor business practice. And new software shouldn't be a continuing expense; software should be purchased based on a demonstrated need, and an intelligent evaluation process.

      Almost all of the things you say scream mismanagement to me. A three year cycle doesn't even fit the release cycles of most major upgrades, and no IT department worth its salt will move onto a platform right after release (which is the real reason no one is moving to Vista). Three year hardware cycles are too slow to be bleeding edge, but too methodical to take into account the best times to buy new hardware.

      You definitely have a management point of view. I suggest if your IT department is out of control with its expenses, you fire half the staff and slash their budget. If your quality of service remains roughly the same, you'll be a hero...If it doesn't at least you won't have to work at that company any more.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    6. Re:The Cost Of IT by LuisAnaya · · Score: 1
      Not quite. Big installations replace they seldom replace the hardware. They go through different longer cycles compared to Windows servers. When you start talking about zOS, big HP or big Sun servers, they may not replace the hardware unless there is a real need to, which is usually end of life for the hardware or because there is a genuine business need for it. That's the marketing reason of the blade systems, in this way their "investment is secured because you're replacing a small piece of your equipment".

      Small hardware (PC's, Laptops) are taken off the book rather quickly because they lost their depreciation value. Cycles for those devices is usually every 5 years.

      --
      Vi havas e-poston.
  8. I guess I'm Lucky by techpawn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The CEO was once an IT grunt back in the old days. So, yes the tech has changed but he still sees the world through the IT "filter" as it where. Many decisions he has to defend to the board and rest of management because they make sense from the business side for IT (such as hot swap backup equipment). The other managers see it as expense, luckily the CEO sees it our way (yes, it's a cost now, but downtime mean more cost later)

    --
    Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
  9. The value of IT to most businesses... by R2.0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...is the same as the value of a toilet.

    - it is necessary to the functioning of the business
    - unless you are a toilet manufacturer or a landlord, it is NOT part of your central business
    - ideally it "just works", allowing you to focus on more important things
    - when it doesn't "just work", things start to stink.

    The difference is that it is unthinkable that most companies should have a "Chief Plumbing Officer", but the IT world seems to think that they need to be involved at the highest reaches of every company's management.

    --
    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    1. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by bestinshow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If upper management treated the plumbing like IT, then you'd have a bucket to piss in and slop out every day, and the bucket would have a leak in it, but there wouldn't be any money to patch it up to keep the contents secure. The bucket would also be in the company basement, in a poorly ventilated corner next to a dead dog.

      Plumbing - you do it once, it lasts 25 years if not 50. The only upgrades might be for more efficiently flushing toilets and taps that don't drip. That's the equivalent of putting a 750GB hard drive on an original IBM PC.

      IT is an essential part of a modern business, and if it's done wrong the business can go down the drains. Wrong can be getting IT in the way of people's jobs, instead of helping them. Sadly this can't be avoided (e.g., third party clients demanding that you use IT for something that only benefits them whilst being a massive inconvenience for the supplier).

      I bet many IT guys would love to get paid at the rates plumbers get paid at though. I don't think they'd like the apprenticeship period though ...

    2. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by Spad · · Score: 4, Funny

      Most businesses don't cease to function when they suffer a toilet outage, however.

    3. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by blueeyedmick · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The toilet analogy is a pretty good one, but it fails in one respect that is very important - few companies choose to design their own toilet. They assume that existing, simple, common toilets will work just fine for them and they assume that even if they chose to design their own toilet it would give them no competitive advantage. Now, examine software for a moment. How many companies would be willing to change all of their procedures and operations in order to adopt a standard off-the-shelf solution purchased as a commodity on the open market? How many would abandon their carefully crafted strategies and competitive practices in order to avoid special purpose software? To put it another way, how many would be willing to run their businesses exactly (and I mean EXACTLY) like the competitor across the street so that the two of them could use the same software "plumbing"? In my experience, the answer is NONE. And that's why we have CIOs and Technology Officers and the like slowly forcing their ways into the boardroom. Without them, the custom-made "plumbing" isn't worth the millions spent on it, and the company can't compete.

    4. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by Alphager · · Score: 1

      The difference is that it is unthinkable that most companies should have a "Chief Plumbing Officer", but the IT world seems to think that they need to be involved at the highest reaches of every company's management. The difference is: If the toilets on floor 11 fail (get clogged; whatever), the people on floor 11 can continue to work. If the domain-server for floor 11 fails, the cannot do _anything_ in most businesses. Each _SECOND_ the IT-infrastructure isn't available costs serious money. And you can always let a stranger pee in your toilets, but you should never let a stranger anywhere near the main data-servers...
    5. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1


      The difference is that it is unthinkable that most companies should have a "Chief Plumbing Officer", but the IT world seems to think that they need to be involved at the highest reaches of every company's management.


      On the other hand (for most businesses), plumbing is something that you either have or you don't. You need it for your employees to be productive, but getting better toilets probably won't make them more productive.

      There's almost always potential for some facet of IT to add new value to a company, though. Maybe it's replacing a previously expensive phone system for an international call center with VoIP. Maybe it's replacing a mostly manual order-entry system that takes a lot of time and is prone to human error with a workflow system that can automate 90% of the steps, saving time and cutting errors way down. Maybe it's revamping some internal (software) process to add high availability to a system that incurs significant profit losses whenever it's down for an hour.

      For any company big enough to have some of these possibilities, hell yes it makes sense to have a person knowledgeable about technology at the higher levels of leadership to help decide when technology can add more value to the business.

    6. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by kent_eh · · Score: 1

      Most businesses don't cease to function when they suffer a toilet outage

      They do if that toilet outage is on an upper floor....
      --

      ---
      "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
    7. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by Iagi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not sure how you got "Insightful" on this comment. If any thing, to me, this shows the opposite. Management didn't choose the plumbing. In fact if you wanted to really compare it to how some companies manage thier IT would look more like this:

      Dept A wants to be hooked into the city sewage system,
      Dept B wants a septic tank because they heard it is cheaper
      Dept C wants to connect to the county's sewage system because it is new and therefore has to be the best.
      Dept D does not want plumbing at all because it is too costly and they can go use the other Depts systems.

      There you go mister plumber. Make this work.

    8. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      The difference is that it is unthinkable that most companies should have a "Chief Plumbing Officer", but the IT world seems to think that they need to be involved at the highest reaches of every company's management.
      It depends on what business you are in. Technology companies or companies that rely heavily on technology like Google, Amazon or mobile phone operators do not need their IT to "just work"; they need it to stay ahead of the pack. Toilets do not give your company a competitive advantage, but IT can.

      Companies that manage to use IT as a competitive advantage usually do two things:
      1) They don't treat IT as IT but as Information Management.
      2) They have IT represented at board level.
      IT should not be about Vista and das blinkenlights, but about corporate information and how to manage it. Information Management is difficult though since it requires knowledge of both IT and the business. Having a CIO who speaks business as well as technology on the board, helps turning your IT plumbing into something with real value... and in companies with such a CIO, the value of IT is a lot more apparent to the rest of management. But you are right that a CIO who just manages the plumbing is pointless.

      The problem with many IT people is that even they cannot explain the value of their service to the business. Most of them focus on their projects and their own little tech world, where the rest of the company is a big unknown, a hindrance that impedes their daily activities. And I've seen CIOs / CTOs like that.
      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    9. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      The difference is that it is unthinkable that most companies should have a "Chief Plumbing Officer", but the IT world seems to think that they need to be involved at the highest reaches of every company's management.
      The reason you don't have a "Chief Plumbing Officer" is because the analogy isn't so great.

      Most businesses don't grind to a screeching halt when their toilet gets clogged up or the water doesn't work. Most businesses have a very hard time functioning at all these days if a server goes down.

      Most businesses don't have to constantly upgrade their plumbing either. They don't suddenly have to upgrade to Toilet2000 in order to keep support... And they don't have vendors telling them Toilet2000 will only run on MSPipeLine2008. And they don't have to worry whether MSPipeLine2008 will play nice with their existing SinkStation98's and DrinkingFountain2001's.

      Generally speaking, your plumbing decisions don't impact all that many aspects of your company. But your employees likely use their computers the majority of the time they're at work...and your server is likely used for absolutely anything of importance...and decent bandwidth is the lifeblood of business these days...and if you make the wrong purchases/decisions you could have a very hard time keeping everything up and running.

      I would suggest that if plumbing were as integral and dynamic as modern IT you would in fact have a "Chief Plumbing Officer".
      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    10. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      And you can always let a stranger pee in your toilets, but you should never let a stranger anywhere near the main data-servers... Especially if they have to pee...
    11. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      IT is an essential part of a modern business, and if it's done wrong the business can go down the drains

      As an IT pro of 20 years and spent over 7 years in the thick of Upper Corporate IT I can tell you this without question.

      Almost ALL IT out there in business is not only done wrong but done half assed. I have seen more money put into board room automation than they spent on the IT infrastructure. I have seen half assed networking, half assed server solutions, and my favorite.... When they exist, Backup solutions are typically incredibly half assed.

      this is the norm and it will stay that way forever. Marketing get's all the money, Sales get's all the upgrades, It needs to make those servers from 2003 to last another year again because it's not in the budget to upgrade, we have to remodel the CFO's office again.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    12. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by DavidHumus · · Score: 1

      You're on the management fast-track, I see.

    13. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by avandesande · · Score: 1

      My experience is that most companies business practices really suck, and would benefit from following the COTS product's methodolgy rather than writing their own.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    14. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by KZigurs · · Score: 1

      Realllly?

      Have you suffered a toilet outage recently? Or at all?

    15. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by Scroatzilla · · Score: 1

      RTFA. Unlike "toilets," proper integration of IT within a company can offer a competitive advantage and therefore increase revenue. Conversely, if your competition nicely integrates IT within its organization as the article suggests, it will be better poised to lead the way, and move more quickly, than your company; and, your company will lose.

      Have fun crapping.

    16. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by bestinshow · · Score: 1

      Hey, that's the IT guy's lunch, I wouldn't take that away from them.

      And who approved the budget to give those IT guys a spade anyway! We know the IT tools budget was cut this year.

      Anyway, must put that expense claim in for that champagne dinner with some friends. Whoa, doesn't vintage champers cost a pretty penny!

    17. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      I've seen this with several financial and CRM "customization" projects that cost upwards of six figures and never brought a tenth of that in extra value to the company.

      Sometimes it's better to mold your business processes to the way the software works, and to pick software that is extensible by the end user rather than high-priced consultants.

      90% of the customizations I've ever had to do could have been done by a monkey with Crystal Reports and some basic data modelling knowledge.

    18. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by PieceofLavalamp · · Score: 1

      Actually they do because without toilets its a health hazard.

    19. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by dbrutus · · Score: 1

      I've currently got a main house valve that doesn't work, a post meter valve that doesn't work, a sidewalk valve that's buried and the only thing that's keeping my kitchen dry is the valve on my sink and that one's starting to leak. The house is about 20 years old.

      Plumbing needs maintenance just like everything else.

    20. Re:The value of IT to most businesses... by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      The continuing success of SAP seems to prove your idea wrong.

      Mart
      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  10. And how does IT view Management? by captaindomon · · Score: 2

    And how does IT view Management? Do they view them as nothing more than an employer? Somebody who writes payroll checks and should stay out of the way of IT? Does IT understand the value of business investments, legal contracts, general ledgers, due diligence, SEC problems, etc? I think in order for Management to care about IT, it is going to have to be a two-way street. IT and Management need to learn to work *together*, and that is going to require some understanding from IT as well.

    --
    Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
    1. Re:And how does IT view Management? by Cerberus7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I used to respect management folks. Then I started actually getting to know them and how they operate. Their decisions have next to nothing to do with what makes sense. Their decisions are about squeezing ever last drop out of the bottom line, all other priorities are rescinded. Need a new app to do task X? Get the cheapest one. It doesn't matter if it sucks, it's cheap and that makes Manager X happy because their year-end bonus, that's about the size of your entire yearly salary, will be bigger.

      --
      I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    2. Re:And how does IT view Management? by vertinox · · Score: 1

      Does IT understand the value of business investments, legal contracts, general ledgers, due diligence, SEC problems, etc?

      To be fair, one only has to look at the disaster going on in Wall Street right now to see that management doesn't either.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    3. Re:And how does IT view Management? by hughk · · Score: 1

      I work at banks, IT does everything except legal and even there we have to help draft and read the contracts to pull out the IT implications. We live and breath SEC regulations (as well as any others that may apply) and we are usually the ones to raise risks, i.e., against Sarbanes-Oxley, OFAC and other stuff.

      Come to think of it, very little of what a bank does involves handling physical money or securities. What we do is handle information, so the processing of which is the core business.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    4. Re:And how does IT view Management? by caderoux · · Score: 1

      I've found another pathology - the decision making skewed toward the "hard" decisions. I've seen a guy pick the riskier, pointless decision, because it was a "harder" decision. This, in order to claim he was saving money (he was not) instead of spending (less in one case) a little more upfront (ROI in months), and having a far better solution. But the decision was harder because it was either a change of course, or talked up that way to pad his ego and show that he was making the "difficult" choices.

    5. Re:And how does IT view Management? by ljheidel · · Score: 1

      Throw in that the industry is out there there promoting computing as a "utility" (with all of its connotations in the minds of management). They don't care what utility computing really means, what they here is "you can buy your IT just like you buy water or power." If you approach it like that, you get exactly what you get from the power or water company: poor service, unfathomable delays, sloppy work ethic, and an all around bad solution. But, the bottom line is that there's some guy in a suit telling another guy in a suit that he can replace you for pennies on the dollar.

    6. Re:And how does IT view Management? by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      I do IT security for a company with around 800 staff. We have a flat management structure - I write up a proposal, the CIO vets it, then it goes to the deputy CEO for approval. He's an ex accountant, but he's one of the sharpest, most pragmatic people I've ever met. He'll find any holes in my justifications, so I've learned to be very through, but if there's real benefit to the company it gets approved. I fucking love working here - compared to some of the bureaucratic hell-holes I've worked in before, it's heaven This is a result of having a CIO who knows how to operate at the boardroom level, and an excellent corporate culture that hires talented, pragmatic execs - people with huge egos don't last long round these parts.

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
  11. We're garbage men/women. by dpaluszek · · Score: 1

    After all, we just take out the trash every day (figuratively, that is). Honestly, top management and executives could care less why the , they just want it fixed since it's hampering their business "productivity."
    Maybe I'm bitter, but we are viewed as objects that do the dirty work.

    1. Re:We're garbage men/women. by techpawn · · Score: 1

      I've always seen IT more as the stage hands on the theater of business.

      Without us the stars don't shine and the show doesn't go on. Very rarely do you get a producer or director who recognizes the work of the set designers or prop handlers but they're just as needed as the people on stage who bring the people into the theater.

      I know, it's not a Car analogy... Maybe we're the pit crew for the race cars of the business world?

      --
      Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
    2. Re:We're garbage men/women. by mh1997 · · Score: 1

      I know, it's not a Car analogy... Maybe we're the pit crew for the race cars of the business world?
      Specifically, you are the "jack man" on the pit crew because when people go to you for help, you jack them around and then make fun of them for being idiots.

      Just joking, but that is the way most feel about IT staff.

    3. Re:We're garbage men/women. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      No way, man. The pit crew is far too respected to be representative of IT.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  12. Viewed as a cost rather than a multiplier by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    You tell them, spend $10 mill and we will get you $50 mill in sales.
    They say... nah, how about $3 mill and $10 million in sales.

    And this is for a multi billion dollar corporation.

    ---

    They throw away software that has been fixed of all issues and buy packages recommended by salespeople that never works as promised for several years (at which point they throw it out and get new stuff... again!!!) I think that is because the tax laws incent new capital investments over maintaining/upgrading existing software.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  13. I've seen this disconnect by MadFarmAnimalz · · Score: 1
    ... and I've had to address it. It is possible this might be of interest and relevance; I worked some time in microfinance, and was asked to deliver a capacity building workshop on IT for senior leadership. Managed to make it Creative Commons. :) But a glance at the deck goes a long way to illustrating the kind of fundamental lack of understanding and pragmatism towards enterprise IT which the article refers to.

    FWIW, I think one of the key outputs of IT Governance implementation is to stamp out this form of disconnect.

    --
    Blearf. Blearf, I say.
  14. My personal experience with my IT staff by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    My IT staff are despised in our organization. They are antagonistic, have terrible (if not outright non-existent) customer service, and are generally a bunch of obstructionist pricks. Anytime someone makes a request of them they either refuse it outright or throw up roadblocks until the requestor just gives up in frustration. They use security as an excuse to be increasingly heavy-handed (to the point where technical staff like me have to work from home just to have access to the sites and tools we need to do our job). They have a "help desk" that, to my knowledge, has never helped anyone.

    Typical call to IT here?

    "Hi, I need to use X piece of software (which is mainstream and well-known). I can't install it myself because I don't have admin rights, can you install it please?"
    "Why do you need it?"
    "Well [insert many technical reasons here]"
    "Sorry, we can't install software that hasn't been approved."
    "How do I get it approved?"
    "Well it will have to go before the board, which meets every 6 months or so. And you also have to [insert about 100 roadblocks and obstructionist measures here]."
    "Great. Screw it, I'll just work from home again."

    If you want to know why your IT department is hated, ask yourself how you treat your customers. Do you treat them as your bosses, or as your enemies?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by huguley · · Score: 1


      For every 1 user that is responsible with work resources there are 5 that will do boneheaded things and break something. Then when you want to reimage their computer to fix it they scream and yell that IT is unable to keep their computer working. Those 5 complain to their bosses and so the complaint count is always greater than the happy count. In all likelyhood the 1 person that knows what they are doing also knows that the other 5 are idiots and its pointless to try and argue with them.

      I am being generous with the 1 in 5 btw. I suspect the gap is much greater.

      This also explains why calling the helpdesk or customer service results in little getting done. The ratio of lunkheads to competent people is the same in all fields. Not that I am cynical or anything just my experience.

    2. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by phantomcircuit · · Score: 1

      Honestly they are just doing the same thing the rest of your company is probably doing, covering their asses.

      If they install something on your computer that leads to a network intrusion and massive down time or data theft, they get shafted not you.

    3. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by PhiloBeddoe · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure why you're blaming the IT department when clearly they've been given rules they must adhere to. Just because it makes you mad that you don't have admin rights or can't use some unapproved software doesn't mean the IT shop is "bad." I don't excuse assholes, but you're talking about policy, not the value of IT.

      Besides, security and policies like "don't give elrous0(869638) admin rights" probably exist to ensure elrous0(869638) doesn't install the latest junk software which might introduce a very serious crippling event behind the firewall and halt all business for days or weeks while *IT* gets to clean it up!

      If I had to deal with the plethora of ignorant people that I'm sure 90% of IT departments do, I'd be looking for a job in management :). If you don't like your IT department, tell the policy makers to make it easier for them to do their job, which in turn would make your job more efficient and benefit the company as a whole. Don't just perpetuate the "Disconnect between IT and Management"

    4. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You get that attitude when a department has zero available budget and people want stuff for free. In disfunctional organisations an IT department has to justify your request to somebody else etc etc. You can get real classics like a finance department demanding a new fax machine immediately, getting an IT staff member to skip lunch to buy it on their personal credit card and then the same finance department staff member repeatably refusing reimbursement for over three months because the purchase did not go through the standard long and convoluted approval process. I tend to avoid large monolithic companies run like a Soviet government departments buried under mountains of arbitrary rules since you just end up with everyone hating each other and not much progress in any direction.

    5. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by Neil+Watson · · Score: 1

      I don't wholly disagree with you. There are certainly some incompetent IT people in the world. There are incompetent people in all fields. I would say however that there is another side this story.

      Installing requested software from IT's point of view has some implications. Many organizations take software licensing costs from the IT budget and not the budget of the department that actually uses the software. That added cost may take money away from infrastructure needs that will affect all employees. There is also the cost of support. If IT is not familiar with the product they'll have to learn how to install and support it. These costs multiply because once one person installs a piece of software more are sure to follow. Suddenly your single request has ballooned to 5 or 100 requests along with the accompanying costs.

      However, IT should be sensitive to your needs. They may be unable to offer you the software you requested for the above reasons or perhaps policy reasons which they do not control. IT should however be able to offer you alternative products or a avenue to follow within the organization that may create changes in the adversarial policy.

    6. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by mikael · · Score: 1

      I've worked in IT support departments like that. The main problem was that they were paranoid that if they let any user do something that was non-standard, they would get into deep **** if anything went wrong. If they created a modem dial-up pool for remote workers, would they start being hacked into? This problem was solved by giving remote workers private ISDN links.

      If they gave people admin rights to their own desktop systems, will they only use these accounts for maintenance or will they treat it as the default account and inadvertently end up installing spyware and spamware? The IT department had enough problems with people writing their passwords and usernames on yellow post-it notes stuck on their monitors.

      If people were allowed to copy databases on their work laptops, would they take care of these systems or would they end up losing company records?

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    7. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by ibmjones · · Score: 1

      "Hi, I need to use X piece of software (which is mainstream and well-known). I can't install it myself because I don't have admin rights, can you install it please?"
      "Why do you need it?"
      "Well [insert many technical reasons here]"


      That's why you will always lose with IT.

      Assuming that your IT department are not pricks, you may go farther if you can outline a business case for your need. If you frame it that way, it'll be easier to get managerial support for your request. At the very lease, it may be more difficult for IT to refuse your request, since their role is to *support* the business.

    8. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by mungtor · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I work in IT and I've seen this countless times. It stems from the laziness of the IT staff and their unwillingness to learn anything about a new product. They continually look for ways to avoid work, and they are smart enough (sometimes) to make the system work for them sometimes.

      My biggest problems come from users who want to install applications which nobody has Finance approval for. We get caught in the middle. The conversation goes something like:

      U: I need Visio and Project for the project I'm working on.
      IT: Sure, but since we have to true-up all the licenses at the end of the year (MS Assurance crap) we just need an e-mail with an approval from Finance.
      U: So you won't install it?
      IT: We can't without Finance approval. Both you and your manager *know* that's the process.
      U: Thanks for nothing.
      IT: Ummm.. you're welcome?

      Couple that with an Engineering department that won't include IT in any of their discussions about what resources they need and it's a disaster. They budget $4000 for a Quad Dual-Core processor machine with 32GB of ram and then are pissed at IT when we can't make one materialize at that price.

    9. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by RevWaldo · · Score: 1

      How often does your computer crash, freeze up, get infected, cannot connect to the network, etc? When was the last time your company was sued for violating a software license or a terms of service agreement? If the answer is "hardly ever" then your IT department is probably doing their job right. Now go through the damn approval process already. Once the application is approved for you there'll probably be dozens of other staff at your company that want to install it too that won't have to go through all the trouble.

    10. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by JerryQ · · Score: 1

      I have been 30+ years in IT and the spectacular arrogance of people in IT depresses me. All IT needs business. Not all business needs IT. IT staff treat the business as if they are doing them a huge favour instead of just doing their job. I have been witness to IT staff telling a very successful business manager that he didnt understand his own business, disrespectful little toads!. When IT starts to respect business, then, PERHAPS, business might start to respect IT. Jerry

    11. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by Kokuyo · · Score: 1


      If you want to know why your IT department is hated, ask yourself how you treat your customers. Do you treat them as your bosses, or as your enemies?

      Neither is a good idea. You should treat your customers as exactly that: Customers. They are not your boss. Your boss is in a situation where he wields power over you and should have at least a little insight in the field you operate in. With customers, that usually isn't the case at all.

      Treating them as enemies, of course, is stupid. But the above isn't much better.

      Whenever I've come across an obnoxious IT staff, it's usually been like that for two distinctive reasons:

      1: For some reason, there's a shortage in IT personel, and these guys are milking it for what it's worth. There's also a possibility that they belong to the most senior of workers and are all chummy with the CEO, thus creating a perceived lack of alternative.

      2: They've been treated too badly for too long. They are now fed-up and until they get the boot or find a new job, you're in for payback.

      To option number one I'll say it's the CEO's fault. If you go and give some of your staff this much leeway or are not willing to offer interesting condictions to new staff (there's always someone who can do the job you offer... the question is are you ready to pay them?), it's your own damn fault. Live with it.

      To option number two I say: Serves you right. I hope they make your life hell for as long as possible you damned slavedriver.

    12. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by BVis · · Score: 1

      The IT department had enough problems with people writing their passwords and usernames on yellow post-it notes stuck on their monitors.

      If people were allowed to copy databases on their work laptops, would they take care of these systems or would they end up losing company records?
      There is one very simple step that can solve these two issues (and their consequences). Make either one a terminable offense, and MAKE IT STICK. Put a line in the employee handbook that says "Violation of these two policies (without management approval) will result in automatic termination for cause." Then make an example of the next moron that does it.

      Of course, then you have Management letting people do whatever they want, but that makes it THEIR problem, not IT's problem. (As it is right now, it's really the fault of the managers who allow their employees to do these things, but IT is inevitably blamed because 'passwords are hard to remember'. Anyone who manages to find their way out of bed in the morning can memorize an 8 character sequence.)
      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    13. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      I am certainly sympathetic to the need to maintain security (I would never advocate that they hand over admin rights to every yahoo in the company, as many idiots would end up loaded with spyware, or install just any random unknown program) and the costs involved. But we're talking about an IT department that refuses to do ANYTHING. I'm not talking about maintaining standards, I'm talking about them being so scared (and incompetent) that they refuse to innovate or move forward on anything. This is an IT department that refuses to install a wifi network (there is no internet access in any of our conference rooms or anywhere outside of individual offices with wired ethernet connections) because they aren't capable of handling simple WPA authentication (and aren't willing to learn). We're talking about an IT department that won't install Firefox because it's "a security risk." We're talking about a bunch of guys who probably haven't learned a damned thing about IT since they were in college, and have no incentive or desire to ever do so.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    14. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by elrous0 · · Score: 1
      I've never know anyone in my organization that EVER successfully "went through the approval process." The more you try, the more roadblocks they throw up. Most of the time, I personally either just give up or find a way to do it on my own (usually at home). 90% of the time, my project is long over before their approval board even meets (they should probably call it the "denial board," since they've never actually approved anything, AFAIK).

      The one time I did go through the full process (I needed some server space for an internal website), it dragged on for two years (that is NOT an exaggeration--two full years). They threw up roadblock after roadblock for what should have been a very simple task (hell, even I can set up a basic Apache or IIS webserver, and this was just for hosting very low security material on an internal network--we're not talking the Pentagon here). After pressing it for two years, they finally just quoted me a ridiculous figure to hire a consultant (a $30,000 consultant to set up a fucking basic webserver). At that point, I just threw my hands up, gave up, and told my boss that it simply could not be done through our IT department. We ended up going through another division's IT department (they were able to set it up in one afternoon and it didn't cost us a dime).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    15. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by vertinox · · Score: 1

      "Well it will have to go before the board, which meets every 6 months or so. And you also have to [insert about 100 roadblocks and obstructionist measures here]."

      Has it occurred to you that that is what the board told them to do? Obviously if such a trivial thing would be brought up to the board of directors, perhaps the BoD specifically berated them prior to your request that they were spending too much money on software licenses.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    16. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by vertinox · · Score: 1

      IT: We can't without Finance approval. Both you and your manager *know* that's the process.
      U: Thanks for nothing.


      Umm... Has it ever occurred to you that if he had let you install it and then Microsoft shows up the next for an audit that the proverbial shit would hit the fan.

      Its very unpleasant and Microsoft is very vigilant even among their best customers. One out of order copy could cause of a hefty fine and some downtime. The reason they have to ask finance is because finance has not given them the money to buy the license. If they gave you a copy without a license they are risking their job and possibly yours.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    17. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by rabt68 · · Score: 1

      I have had to deal with numerous end users such as yourself. I bet you are the type who downloads all the "neat" screen savers and desktop wall paper that comes with the usual spyware and malware and then call the support desk complaining how slow your system is. Most corporate IT dept. have "approved" software that they load to systems. Not just because of security (always a major concern of any responsible company) but also because of licensing fee's. Most software used in corporations are not a simple "buy it and use it all you want" style of pricing. Many software makers charge for the original purchases and then they also charge based on how many people/systems use the software. They then also charge an annual charge (usually 15% to 20% of the "list price" of the software) to continue to use that software so an accurate accounting of number of users or systems with that software must be maintained the your company. The fines can be in the 6 and 7 figures for unlicensed software. Then lets get into the issue that some software just do not play well with other software so knowing what each system has installed is very important. Then of course since you got the specialized software that you wanted you can bet that "Bob" down the hall is going to complain unless he can get the software he wants. IT dept. are more than happy to purchase software if it is truely needed (which was all your IT person was asking you to verify) and as long as there is funds in the budget to pay for it.

    18. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by Zeromous · · Score: 1

      It probably hasn't occurred to you that those roadblocks actually exist. Sometimes its for a good reason (like you not having administrative privileges, or actual justification)

      More often than not these roadblocks actually stem from a systemic misunderstanding (which is horribly contagious I might add) within the organization of this American legislation:

      http://www.soxlaw.com/

      --
      ---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
    19. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that mungtor was on the "IT:" side of that conversation, not the bitchy user.

    20. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      No I'm the type of user who knows exactly what the Hell he's doing, and have never had a virus or installed a piece of malware in my life because I'm not stupid enough to open a executable attachment or install a unknown piece of software and I because I take precautions like running Firefox with NoScript (not at work, because the genius IT department that you're defending has identified Firefox as a "security risk" and won't install it). The licensing fees aren't an issue, since my department has the money for the software (we just can't get them to approve installing it).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    21. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess: You think installing a WiFi access point on a corporate network is as easy as running to Best Buy and purchasing a wireless access point designed for personal use and plugging it into the corporate network, right?

    22. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by Bellum+Aeternus · · Score: 1

      Do we work at the same company?

      --
      - I voted for Nintendo and against Bush
    23. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by Arterion · · Score: 1

      All business needs IT somewhere.

      You seem to think IT isn't a business function. Maybe you're thinking of your IT helpdesk or something. Many companies, though, have a CIO. That should be an IT-minded business person. The further down the chain of command you go, the less business and more IT it becomes. But the truth is, I think an IT manager would probably know the operation of the business better than the business manager. Especially if he's gotten into any system analysis or worked with a developer for software you use.

      I work for a small company, and without a doubt, I know the operations of our business way better than anyone else in the building. I may not know "the business" (medical physics, in our case) as well, but I know how THIS business operates. I wouldn't think to suggest how to deal with new clients, but you better believe when it comes to the "hows" of processes and managing information, I'm the king.

      Really, if your business is Information of some sort, your IT staff may well know the business, in many ways, better than the business people.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    24. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by willllllllllll · · Score: 1
      There's a difference between operational IT and business advantage IT.

      The latter develops (or integrates, or buys) systems or trains staff, in order to give the business a competitive advantage - that's the fun stuff for IT staff, but usually requires more IT knowledge than most managers can deploy. That is the kind of IT that the article is focusing on.

      The former is something that most managers think that they can understand, so they are tempted to exert their influence over operational processes in the same way as over financial or communication processes. Then the whole thing can get stuck in meetings and committees.

      Your IT department's process really does suck.

      .

      Our operational IT staff have to fight off the HR and financial departments who want to drown the quick and efficient IT processes in paperwork.

    25. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      For every 1 user that is responsible with work resources there are 5 that will do boneheaded things and break something. Then when you want to reimage their computer to fix it they scream and yell that IT is unable to keep their computer working. Those 5 complain to their bosses and so the complaint count is always greater than the happy count. In all likelyhood the 1 person that knows what they are doing also knows that the other 5 are idiots and its pointless to try and argue with them.

      Yeah, I hear that a lot from ITC staff. The problem is that the excuse that "we cannot let the user f**k up their machine because then the user complains about ITC" is bullshit. Either the user is going to complain that ICT is being less than helpful or they are going to complain that ICT let them kill their machine. Either way, there is a complaint about ICT.

      If ICT really wanted to help the user, then all they have to do is have a policy that states software requests must be signed by the users manager. This lets the users be accountable and lets ICT give out the software that is requested. The only reason ICT wants the user to justify to ICT Staff themselves is because the majority of the staff in ICT have too much power for their little minds to comprehend.

      Prevent users from accessing arbitrary websites because "I say so"? Sure, why not ... they can motivate for wanting access after all. Prevent users from installing software on their desktop? Excellent, they can motivate if they really need something.

      All ICT wants is users grovelling before them, to cope for their own inadequecies. If this was not the case, then ICT would simply offload the burden of motivation to the users manager. If the users manager OK's a request, who are ICT to argue?

      This is also the primary reason that ICT hate other technical staff (like, developers?) - we can spot their bullshit a mile off! Even when I provided tcpdump logs (and they provided nothing) from our department firewall as evidence that some errors on our network did not originate with our department, they insisted that it must be! The exact words used, IIRC, were "It must be your firewall, as the download works on this end". It turned out, after disassembling *their* application, that there was an error in *their* application that was ip address specific. Really - these people ignored tcpdumps from our firewall that showed exactly which url was being attempted. How much *more* incompetant can you get?

      Fair enough, not all ICT folk are like this, just like not all lawyers are ambulance chasers. But enough are that I've given up hope and simply ignore them as much as I can.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    26. Re:My personal experience with my IT staff by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      No, of course not. But it can certainly be done. I know that because we can actually pick up the wifi network of the company below us (which they use for THEIR meeting rooms and to provide visiting clients with internet access). I even considered going to them at one time and asking if our department could just pay them to "piggyback" on their network, but was too ashamed to admit to them that our own IT department was incapable or unwilling to help us.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  15. "we're not in the software business" by Speare · · Score: 1

    The mindset at one place I've worked is that "we're not in the software development business, so we don't want to invest in good software development practices", even though the primary business depended, heart and soul, on very specialized and customized software tools. I can see this kind of thing from a secretarial staffing agency. I can't see this kind of thing from an industrial giant making any sense, but it's really a common attitude. They want to develop tomorrow's products using nothing but COTS tools. Newsflash: if all the tools come in predefined boxes, it's really really tough to think outside the box. Software is soft and malleable for a reason.

    --
    [ .sig file not found ]
    1. Re:"we're not in the software business" by CompMD · · Score: 1

      I did some IT consulting for a partner company that was involved in software development. However, they had never heard of source code control; the concepts of CVS or SVN were beyond them. Version control was impossible, you never could tell what files belonged with what builds. Modification tracking would have been impossible. And to top it off, they had no IT department. Why? "Oh, we're programmers and computer scientists, we don't need an IT staff!"

      We no longer partner with this company on software development.

  16. On the other side of the wall by jo42 · · Score: 4, Funny

    '[m]ost top executives ... think of IT as an expensive headache that they'd rather not deal with.' "Most top IT people think of 'top' executives as a bunch of lobotomized, management-speak babbling, suit wearing, golf playing, secret handshake boy club members that we'd rather not deal with."
    1. Re:On the other side of the wall by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2, Funny
      Most top IT people think of 'top' executives as a bunch of lobotomized, management-speak babbling, suit wearing, golf playing, secret handshake boy club members that we'd rather not deal with.

      We dont just think it, we know it!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    2. Re:On the other side of the wall by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Funny

      '[m]ost top executives ... think of IT as an expensive headache that they'd rather not deal with.' "Most top IT people think of 'top' executives as a bunch of lobotomized, management-speak babbling, suit wearing, golf playing, secret handshake boy club members that we'd rather not deal with." And they never seem to disappoint us.
  17. Amen! by davidwr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Price != value.

    Basic utilities are immensely valuable. Imagine how much less productive your office would be if it didn't have phones, electricity, or indoor plumbing.

    The fact that these items cost only a fraction of their contribution doesn't mean the same is true for IT.

    The key difference is that most basic utilities are or have historically been regulated and their price set at the cost of production plus a reasonable profit. Where they are not regulated they are theoretically kept reasonable by market pressures or political pressures.

    Employment of knowledge-workers on the other hand is different:
    Each job is unique. Each worker is unique. Leaving one employer for another you hope will be better takes time and effort, as does "getting rid of" a less productive worker and replacing him with someone you hope will be more productive. For these reasons, if someone's pay, benefits, and working conditions are "close enough" to what both the employer and employee think are fair, the employee probably won't quit and he probably won't be "gotten rid of."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  18. What IT are you talking about ? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

    Because if you're talking about sysadmin, managing files, network, backups, net access, etc... I don't really see the difference with a basic utility. It should "just work" it requires money and work to maintain, it is possible for users to do stupid things. It is possible for managers to ask impossible things or to impose an impractical solution.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  19. In the eyes of ... by moseman · · Score: 1

    ... the bean counters and excs, IT is a cost center that does not help you sell more widgets. This puts IT in a bad light. I used to work in the environmental field (80's and 90's) and I saw this kind of response all the time. Why should I spend money on running a clean business when I have been doing it my old way for so long. It becomes a big thorn in their foot.

    --
    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to think "profiling is worse than the slaughter of innocent people..."
  20. My own by iknownuttin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I have a better one.

    Back in the early 90s when I was a real newbie, I asked an ISP if I needed a special phone line for a SLIP connection. Instead of just saying "No" and being done with it, the guy just kept asking "Why". I was not very technical back then and the internet was extremely new (to the general public) so I wasn't coming up with very good reasons. But still, he kept asking "Why" like some retarded parrot.

    Moral of the story is I developed a patient, not condescending, attitude to non-tech people when explaining things.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:My own by jrumney · · Score: 1

      From the point of view of a business connection, you did need a special line - a direct analog line. Many business switchboards in the early 90s were connected to the exchange digitally via ISDN, and even if they were connected via analog, the internal phone network could be digital, or switched through the switchboard digitally so the signal from analog modems would not make it though unscathed. The ISP guy should have known this and given you a straight answer, particularly since in the early 1990's ISPs were generally run and staffed by people that were doing it for the love of it, not because they saw a quick buck, so they were generally quite knowledgeable about even the most minor details (AOL excepted).

  21. Exactly. by RandoX · · Score: 1

    The sales department makes money, while the IT department costs money.

  22. Disconnect from both sides... by Notquitecajun · · Score: 2

    The problem? IT people don't typically understand good business practices, how to make money, and The Big Picture. Management doesn't typically understand the overall usefulness of IT and how it isn't the plumbing and lights - they just know it isn't management or sales. When management and IT REALLY don't get along, there's a serious productivity disconnect that affects everyone.

  23. Well, on the other hand by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IT people often forget hey are a support, not line function.

    On the third hand, IT departments are often not staffed adequately, either in butts in chair or in the quality of the heads over those butts. It seems absurd to think about using IT to achieve breakthroughs in productivity or competitiveness when they seem to spend more time restricting the work that goes through the department than actually getting things done.

    The bottom line is that skill is distributed on a normal curve, and the vast majority of people are mediocre. That includes top management; most companies have mediocre leadership. When the leadership of a company is weak, there's not much IT can do to make things better. They really are just a facilities type function.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:Well, on the other hand by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      Where did you get a third hand?!

    2. Re:Well, on the other hand by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      You sound like management. Let us twist the roles around a bit and see if your argument holds any water.

      Let's say that instead of cooperate-entity-x, we are talking about construction-company-y. The IT staff is now in-house security. Most of what the company does is demolish old buildings and clear mountain sides for new highways. SURE, the workers (IE users) need to play with explosives. Now, especially in this business, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. What is a bad thing is that they keep bringing all sorts of explosives that no one else necessarily has any experience with... even the person that brought it in. Now, BEST CASE scenario is that no one gets blown up... but what are the chances that SOMETHING at SOME POINT will go off creating massive destruction? Pretty good.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    3. Re:Well, on the other hand by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Got it from Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.

    4. Re:Well, on the other hand by plehmuffin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The bottom line is that skill is distributed on a normal curve[citation needed]

    5. Re:Well, on the other hand by hey! · · Score: 1

      The gaussian curve is the curve that maximizes entropy that has no hard upper or lower limit for x, and a finite integral on [-inf,+inf].

      So, really, you need to provide citations for other than a normal distribution.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    6. Re:Well, on the other hand by hey! · · Score: 1

      You need to rework your post so that analogies are what are being compared to explosives.

      In any case, I've gone back and forth between management and engineering over the years. The bottom line is that good IT is no cure for bad management, and good management doesn't tolerate bad IT.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  24. That is not IT department's fault. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That is auditors or security departments fault.

    IT only allows what other people them is allowed. And normally the people saying the last word are auditors of some kind or another.

    But is it really a fault?

    You see it as obstructionist, but do you have the legal know how to know if the application you want installed is legitimate? Are you going to vouch for its security? (I have seen badly programmed applications, including FOSS ones, bring down complete networks due toe unintended denial of service attacks. Will you take responsibility it the tool you need does such thing?). WIll you put your hands in fire for your application in regards to viruses, trojans and any other nasties?

    The obstructionist attitude has a purpose which is to protect the assets and reputation of your company. If that pisses you off, though.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:That is not IT department's fault. by avandesande · · Score: 1

      My experience is that phone people will say anything to get you off the line and stretch the truth to do so.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
  25. Phones make people productive? O RLY? by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Basic utilities are immensely valuable. Imagine how much less productive your office would be if it didn't have phones, electricity, or indoor plumbing. I'd be more productive without the demon-ridden telephone, as it would be harder for people to interrupt me.
    1. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by davidwr · · Score: 1

      This goes to show my point:

      For the small price of an LED, I have the near-infinite value of a "do not disturb" button on my phone.

      For the price of a screwdriver and a very good knife, I can cut the lead to the "message waiting" lamp.

      Now I've got a phone that works on my terms.

      --
      Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    2. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by SQLGuru · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My message light has been red for months, it doesn't flash, so I can pretty much ignore the always-on light (it only turns off if I ever check my voice mail). I use a headset, so the phone only makes a short beep when it rings. I look at caller id to see if I want to answer it and if not, it won't continue to ring. Best arrangement I've ever had for a phone. The use is retained, the annoyance factor is not. Everyone who knows me (including business partners) knows that if they want to reach me, the phone is the worst avenue. Most of the time, they IM to say "can I call you".....of course I would love to answer "no", but alas, I don't.

      Layne

    3. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by hitmark · · Score: 1

      and then you have a mob of angry co-workers at your desk wondering why your not returning their calls?

      or worse, your boss wondering the same thing...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    4. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      I'd be more productive without the demon-ridden telephone, as it would be harder for people to interrupt me.
      For a few days, write down who's calling you. Is it coworkers/managers/etc? Then tell your manager about it. If it's clients? Well, then that can hardly count as being interrupted.
      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    5. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by egeezer · · Score: 1

      I used to have suppliers like attitudes and practices like that - Fortunately I was able to get other vendors to replace them. When I replaced the non-responsive vendors with responsive ones, my productivity and service level went up and my unit's costs went down.

    6. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      Not non-responsive......just not motivated by the phone. If you send an e-mail, I'm right on it, response usually within 15 minutes (unless in a meeting, working on someone else's request, etc.).....

      Layne

    7. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by karnal · · Score: 1

      It took my coworkers a while, but they now understand that due to the "not-at-my-desk" nature of my work, leaving me a voicemail means I'll probably get it a week later. There's a better chance of them seeing me in a meeting at some point during the week than there is of me checking my voicemail and reacting to their requests...

      So, I catch hell for it. But they understand now that an e-mail will get a better response (my laptop should be attached to me as much as I carry it....)

      --
      Karnal
    8. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by plumby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's a big difference between suppliers not answering a call from a client, and someone not always picking up the phone because a co-worker is phoning.

      Personally, one of the most ignorant things I see is people who are in the middle of a conversation with you and just stop (often mid-sentence) to answer the phone, regardless of who's calling. I will very occasionaly do this, but only if it's likely to be an important call, or someone I've been trying to get hold of all day, and will always apologise to the person I'm currently talking to.

      Learning to treat the phone as a tool, not your master, is one of the most important time management skills I've ever learned.

    9. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by giarcgood · · Score: 1

      Personally, one of the most ignorant things I see is people who are in the middle of a conversation with you and just stop (often mid-sentence) to answer the phone, regardless of who's calling.
      What I hate the most about this is people that just say 'I am in the middle of something, can I call you back?' Wouldn't letting it through to voicemail say the same thing?
    10. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by hitmark · · Score: 1

      heh, i guess the thing is to drill into everyone what to use at what level of priority, mail when it can be done at some time, phone when things need to be done now, or one can kiss the world as we know it bye bye...

      problem is that as humans we have a bad habit of sorting our own problems in the latter category no matter how trivial they may appear for everyone else...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    11. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

      I'm a programmer. The clients are not supposed to be calling me.

    12. Re:Phones make people productive? O RLY? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      My message light has been red for months, it doesn't flash, so I can pretty much ignore the always-on light

      Electrical tape solves this problem.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  26. Good reasons? by iknownuttin · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Only a few non-technical managers I have had have had the confidence or humility to just ask me what the best thing they should decide is. And they were the best managers.

    I knew one like that. He got fired for not knowing some tech buzz word that I can't even remember myself. Many of those guys are defensive for a reason: maybe because of their own irrational insecurities or maybe they've learned the hard way not to look "stupid".

    Let's face it, if you don't know something, many, if not most, IT folks will be quick to criticize and pounce on the "stupid" person and give the poor bastard a bad rep that is almost to get rid of. I once worked somewhere on someone's code that I thought was designed quite well: it was tight, commented impeccably, excellent memory management (in 'C'), and it work as designed. I was told that the original coder has a horrible reputation as being "stupid". I just shook my head and said that I wish I were that "stupid". He was no longer with the company. He quit and got a better job - good for him!

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:Good reasons? by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      Let's face it, if you don't know something, many, if not most, IT folks will be quick to criticize and pounce on the "stupid" person and give the poor bastard a bad rep that is almost to get rid of.

      Perhaps, but what you say is the likely outcome of someone being found out as ignorant. When someone actively comes to a programmer and says "I'm considering developing the project like X, do you see any issues with that," then they don't get jumped on, they get a lot of respect. Obviously people skills can make a difference in any direction, but all things being equal, I think asking your staff for information is way better than pretending you don't need to.

      As a favourite character once said: "The only stupid questions are the ones you already know the answer to, and it's perfectly okay to ask those sometimes." Like a lot of behaviour we consider good or moral, it is behaviour that has a short term cost (appearing ignorant) for a long term benefit (not actually being ignorant). The article was about the disconnect between management and IT - I can't see much bigger contributor to that than trying to pretend that you know something better than your staff when you clearly don't. It's not like they're fooling anybody.
      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    2. Re:Good reasons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what you say is the likely outcome of someone being found out as ignorant IT staff don't fire managers.
    3. Re:Good reasons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm just joining a project. I can tell that it's a "culling" project because the same manager has been put in charge of it as the last "doomed" project I worked on in this place (we somehow managed to drag that one through the deadline). Even the tech lead went on holidays for that one; for this project, nobody needs to go on holidays because it's "in-house" (no customer waiting, just an impossible deadine).
      The manager in the firing line is the only one with any technical knowledge and a smidgin of integrity to boot. He was picked because, as such, he is a threat to the rest (there are about 10 managers, outnumbering full-time programmers by two-to-one!).
      There is no reason for the impossible deadline that we were set: our dept is likely to be merged with another in the near future and therefore planned projects have been "pushed back". If there were anything sincere about this new project, management would be listening to the repeated requests I heard today for requirements.
      What's going on is that managers with power are feeling threatened and doing whatever it takes to convince themselves that their positions are safe (including making others look bad enough to fire - good for the "bottom line", if you're a manager).
      My second anonymous post (first was parent - checking that anonymous posting worked there. Showing it in the preview would be useful, webmaster ;-)

    4. Re:Good reasons? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      No but the IT Managers Boss can... Or put him in charge of doomed project, that get him out of the way of the mission critical projects.

      Doomed projects assignemnts are great way to get rid of bad IT managers...
      If they can unDoom the project then they are actually a very good IT Manager.
      Otherwise the Manager will Quit. Making it much easier for the company legally.
      Or on utter project failure you have solid data to Fire him.

      Such doomed projects normally require Old and working (but often clumsilly) Legicy systems. and the buzzwords Orical, SAP, and The Web.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  27. productivity gains by rev_sanchez · · Score: 1

    A significant portion of the impressive productivity gains in the American workforce over the past two decades has come from technology (mainly IT) advances and getting those implemented in the workplaces.

    I think they ignore that at their peril.

    --
    If you didn't come to party don't bother knocking on my door. Prince '1999'
  28. tech life cycle by mbaGeek · · Score: 1

    I don't think "I.T." is being discriminated against in most companies

    the larger issue is how does management treat employees in general. "I.T." is going to be treated pretty close to everybody else.

    for example: the "bully boss" is still common in 2008. I have yet to come across a "management" book that recommends to "intimidate your employees, refuse to listen to reality, pay them as little as possible, criticize what you don't understand" - but I keep running into various forms of that management philosophy (the accepted explanation for why people/management get away with acting like assholes is because it "works" to a certain degree)

    the second big issue is that technology in general has a "life cycle."

    Once upon a time, if you owned an automobile (lets say 100 years ago) you probably built it yourself (or at least knew the person who built it for you), and were most likely able to perform "mechanic" functions yourself (there might have been a livery stable in every town, but no gas stations with "mechanics"). as more people acquired automobiles, "mechanic" probably became a very respected profession. Today "mechanic" may still be a respected profession, but ...

    information technology has followed a similar cycle. 20 years ago, "fixing" computers was more of a challenge than it is today. If you owned a personal computer 20 years ago, you probably knew how to open the case and "fix" it, and for that matter you probably wrote some of the software you used (oh, and I had to walk up hill, in 20 feet of snow, both ways to school, in the summer!).

    computers have gotten smaller, faster, and more dependable. Add in the facts that the number of people with "computer skills" has also grown, that personal computers are pretty close to "commodity" status, and supply and demand rears its head

    yes, in general, management may not fully appreciate the impact I.T. can have on the profitability of an organization - but this is simply an indication of poor management (with that said, I'd love to work for Apple/Cisco/Google ...lol)

    --
    It ain't what they call you. It's what you answer to. http://mylyceum.us/
  29. Having the right Information Technology... by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    does not guarantee that your business will be successful, but having the wrong Information Technology guarantees that your business will fail.

    Executives that fail to see that truth, will not have long careers.

    -ted

    1. Re:Having the right Information Technology... by bertybassett · · Score: 0

      Agreed - what the articel is basically saying is that IT needs to be better aligned with the business. This is what a decent Enterprise Architecture gives you, and its why more companies are now attempting to put these in place despite that fact that doing so costs big money up front before you start to see the benefits...

      --
      Wibble-Wobble, Wibble-Wobble, jelly on a plate
    2. Re:Having the right Information Technology... by smithcl8 · · Score: 1

      "Guarantee" is a pretty big word there. I have seen successful businesses run on crappy IT systems and I've seen businesses with great IT systems fail. I've also seen successful businesses have great IT systems and failing businesses have failing IT systems. In other words, while there may be a correlation between the IT systems and the success of the business, it in no way guarantees business success or failure.

      The comparison between IT and a utility is a good one. We don't manufacture anything, we don't sell anything, and we don't make the company money. We are just a cost center. We can certainly help the company save money, but most of the time, those savings are waaaaaaaaay overstated.

      I've watched companies put in warehouse management systems and promise millions of savings per year, while all they really save is a skid or two of lost product. I've seen companies throw millions into upgraded ERP systems that fail to perform the same tasks their old ones did. I've seen companies throw millions in network overhauls that, in the end, just gave redundancy that hopefully will never be tested. Overall, I have NEVER seen the promises made the salespeople and IT people come to fruition.

      IT folks need to realize that they are only a small part of the company, they are a cost to be minimized, and their goal is to support the people doing the real jobs. Let's face it; sales, accounting, finance, quality assurance, and even HR have more of an impact on a company than the folks fixing people's broken PCs.

  30. IT should be treated as a utility. by miffo.swe · · Score: 2

    There's no magic in IT. You identify what you need and then implement it. If it doesnt give a significant gain in productivity its not worth dealing with.

    Most CIO's and techies tends to look at a new system and then start figuring out where it fits the organization. Thats completely screwed up and is the biggest reason why so many projects fail. The way it should work is that the people needing a function identify it and then the techies find a way to solve it as good/cheap as possible.

    IT is just a utility like everything else, there is no gain in overspending whatsoever. You dont buy 10 ferraris when you need one truck do you?

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  31. One Word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Depreciation. Back a few years ago when i was doing this kind of thing, you could depreciate the cost of software/hardware/etc (over a period of 3 years iirc) and take that out of your income so you were paying taxes on a lower income.

  32. User Attitudes by alohatiger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's a bad attitude, but it develops as a defense to crappy user attitudes. "You NEED to fix this!" is the cry of the user who did something stupid/inappropriate and broke his computer.

    Employees also tend to blame IT when they got caught browsing porn or running their home business at work.

    User: "My computer is broken."
    IT: "What's wrong?"
    User: "I can't access Myspace"
    IT: "That's because we block it."
    User: "You suck!"

    --
    Bigtime Consulting - "We're the best because we cost the most"
    1. Re:User Attitudes by adamruck · · Score: 1

      User: "My computer is broken."
      IT: "What's wrong?"
      User: "I can't access Myspace"
      IT: "We were asked to block it by "
      User: "Oh."

      --
      Selling software wont make you money, selling a service will.
    2. Re:User Attitudes by syousef · · Score: 1

      So a user ends up doing 20-30 hours a week of unpaid overtime, and the company decides to block "time wasting" social network sites like myspace and facebook, ala some heinous net nanny, and you say their attitude sucks? If they're full on browsing porn or running a business it's one thing, but that's not my experience of what happens. What happens is that a lazy IT team can't work out how to educate their staff and don't trust them not to bring virii onto the network so they block all email, social networking, and sometimes even all "non-work-related" sites. Now when an employee wants to do their banking they have to do it when they get home at 10pm, or wait in a queue for an hour at lunch time only to have their boss bitch at them that they took too long a break (never mind that most days they don't take one at all). IT and management are usually the LAST people that should be whining about the poor attitudes of others.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    3. Re:User Attitudes by LinuxDon · · Score: 1

      You happily forget that the blocking rules are 90% of the time the rules of the company and not those of the IT department.
      So why not just tell the director what you think about it?

      Further more, you're blaming the comment of your boss and the service problem of your bank to the IT department, which isn't really fair.

      As for your work hours, explain it to your boss in writing and ask him to contact the head of IT (or the boss of the Head of IT) to have the block removed for your computer.
      Blocks can be removed, but only if you follow the proper procedure. So don't go calling the help desk and be surprised if they don't follow up on your request, as the have been INSTRUCTED not to remove any blocks.

  33. Sell Yourself and what you do to other departments by Electrawn · · Score: 1


    At our company I will repeatedly tell other department heads when we complete a project or as a casual reminder what the man hour savings are.

    One of my projects was to automate a certificate system that reduced the average time to process and generate an education certificate. The average time to process a certificate went from 10-15 minutes per to 1 minute per. This saves hundreds of man hours, and subsequently thousands of dollars in labor in that department.

    Another of a projects we maintain is the e-commerce system. Without it, we would have double to triple our Customer Service staff to process calls. This saves labor, floor space and support space.

    You need to do this kind of reminding -regularly.- Another I have heard/followed is "Always eat lunch with someone above you." This advice is self serving for career, promotions, but in hard times - to remind the value of yourself and what you do.

    If you hide in your cube all day coding/sysadmin/DBA jockeyin without the social selling, it doesn't always pay.

  34. It's quite simple, actually by joeflies · · Score: 2, Insightful
    To a CEO who is looking at the bottom line and the profit of the business, IT appears as a cost center instead of a revenue center. The CEO has no perception of how IT spending helps the business make more money. Thus, they are often motivated to "do more with less" and cut the IT spending budget. IT managers are also partly to blame because they act like a cost center ... spend all your budget or you'll lose budget in the next cycle, just like government does, when it would be far better to demonstrate how spending is not only in the best interests of the company, but it will also help them earn money as well.



    IT is not the only department that is misunderstood. For example, Ray Kassar of Atari thought that software programmers were a cost center too, and no different than assembly plant workers. He didn't realize that programmers were vital to how Atari makes money, and thus the best programmers all left Atari and went to start Activision with a business plant o make 3rd party software for Atari.

  35. "top" execs by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The top execs are the true victims of the IT bubble and nonsense IT sales pitches they bought into that ended up just costing them and their company valuable time and resources. Add to that the possibility that they lost boatloads of personal capital on IT stocks, it should be enough to justify their phobia for the sector altogether.

    So, we're talking about guys who
    -jumped on the latest bandwagon without thinking about the actual usefulness of IT for their business
    -or maybe were just afraid to look obsolete
    -and wasted some of their own money buying the latest crap stock because it had ".com" in its name

    Yeah right. Exactly the kind of guy who should NOT lead a company. Or at least only a company held privately, with himself as the only investor ;-)
    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
    1. Re:"top" execs by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

      Yup, there are definitely some of those incompetent execs types... But on the flipside, the antitype would be the IT guy who did all of those things right, but might not have a clue about running a company. Many of my comp-sci friends had a phobia for the suits and their like, so some of the ignorance - avoidance rather - does go both ways.

      But of course, you can always count on idiots being everywhere, just as you can count on those who are good at everything and go on to succeed... who just piss me off :)

    2. Re:"top" execs by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      Sure, you need some clue in both areas to run a .com company well. My favorite example are the founders of Amazon, who got a lot of things right by starting their internet-based shop:

      -fast and convenient entry of orders for the customer
      -delivery can start earlier because the delivery time of the postcard with the order is gone
      -they get the order data in digital and structured form, which must save lots of money in order processing
      -plus the website is actually well designed.

      So they understood what kind of business could profit from the internet, and they also had a good concept for the implementation. Or at least they understood how to hire good web designers and let them do their job.

      But that sort of manager is so few and far between ...

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
  36. IT is big PERSONAL revenue source for top execs by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    Many vested interests, some bordering on corruption in banana republics, skew the decision making in IT. How many top execs have cozy relationships with consultant firms who hire outsourcing firms? Indian companies like Cognizant, Infosys and Wipro charge 20$ an hour to 50$ per hour depending on the skill set of the ultimate employee who does the work. And they are hired by one oursourcing firm in USA, which is hired by another management firm in USA, which is hired by a consultant firm in USA and ultimately a publicly traded US company gets billed at 125$ to 250$ a hour. All the intermediaries who pad the bill and collect the profits are all privately owned. The ultimate payer is usually a large publicly traded company. Look at the rate of out sourcing by private companies, unlisted companies, companies taken over by private equity and compare it to the public companies.

    Basically the IT management is a personal cash cow for so many people in the corporate hierarchy. India gets blamed for the giant sucking sound and out sourced jobs. But they get a pittance. And the shareholders in America get some peanuts. And the corporate boards, who own very small percentage of the stock anyway, form you-scratch-my-back-and-I-scratch-your-back arrangements with the top executives.

    I know people who are in the middle of the chain skimming something like 5 or 10 $ per hour per employee for providing some six or eight consultants from cognizant to a large publicly traded company in USA. Their only job is provide a shell and a cover to firms higher in the chain. They know and they told me the total mark up for the Indians consultants run the range between 200% to 500%. India used to be so cheap that the companies saved some money despite all the skimming by the middle men. But with rupee appreciating and Indian salaries inflating, if the same rate of skimming continues, shareholders don't save any money any longer through outsourcing. But the vested interests who are doing the padding and skimming are not going to let go that easily.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  37. The bigger news... by Klync · · Score: 1

    Zonk posts something relevant and interesting, that's not a blatant shill for some corporation or corporate pet cause. Way to go Zonk! Keep 'em coming.

    --

    ----
    Not to be confused with Col.
  38. Bad comparison by Icarium · · Score: 1

    Most reputable companies don't use thier plumbing to move around large volumes of sensitive/urgent/otherwise critical data. Poor plumbing is an inconvenience - poor IT can break a business.

    It's like superheroing in reverse - with great responsiility we want great(er) power (Does that make IT supervillians?)

    1. Re:Bad comparison by Overzeetop · · Score: 2, Funny

      sensitive/urgent/otherwise critical

      I'd suggest that there are often times that those can be applied to the needs associated with the toilet.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  39. There is no disconnect by Ranger · · Score: 1
    I think this quote from Philip Greenspun's Career Guide for Engineers and Computer Scientists pretty much sums it up:

    Java Monkeys

    Stammbach, Eduard. (1988). "Group responses to specially skilled individuals in a Macaca fascicularis." Behaviour, 107 (December 1988), 241-266

    Does the staggering wealth of particular engineers and programmers mean that there is any chance for nerds to rise socially?

    Stammbach worked with a colony of longtailed macaques. In the paper cited above, the running header is "Responses to Specially Skilled Java Monkeys." Stammbach took the lowest-ranking macaque out of the society and taught him to operate a complex machine and obtain food. When the nerd monkey was reintroduced to the society, the higher ranking macaques stopped kicking him out of the way long enough for him to complete operation of the machine and obtain food for the community. I.e., society cooperated to create the conditions under which the nerd could toil for them. However, the monkey who acquired these special skills and provided for the society did not achieve any rise in his dominance status.

    --
    "You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
    1. Re:There is no disconnect by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      Perhaps Dilbert oughta have spoken of macaques instead of lemurs...

    2. Re:There is no disconnect by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Sure but they'll start to tolerate standing in your vicinity and even pat you on the back from time to time ;).

      "In the social phase of the trials the non-specialists gave more grooming to the food producers and maintained spatial proximity even in this second phase."

      http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/brill/beh/1988/00000107/F0020003/art00006;jsessionid=3djuvxsodqd59.alexandra?format=print

      Now if some attractive lady started giving me "more grooming" because of my "special skills", I won't care if I didn't achieve a rise in my dominance status, but I'm sure I'll get a rise somewhere else :p.

      --
  40. No, it is a disconnect in three ways by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When it comes to IT their are THREE parties involved. Those who build it (IT), those who govern it (Management) and those who use it (Employees).

    These three groups often have no idea what the other is actually doing.

    Have you ever seen one of those programs where the boss of a big company is put to work on the factory floor? They used to be pretty common, was there ever a SINGLE boss, who wasn't shown to be totally clueless about how the actual work was being done?

    You think IT is any better? How many people with the best training in IT skills ever bother to go down to the factory floor and SEE the REAL workflow before they implement a system?

    You got management trying to make decisions on how to improve a workprocess they don't understand, you got IT trying to implement something that has no basis in reality and employees forced to choose between actually getting the work done and following procedure.

    It doesn't suprise me at all that this article doesn't mention the workforce. Management article talking about proper management but ignoring the people who got to do the actuall work, yeah, never seen that before.

    Get your hands dirty before you even bother trying to think of implementing IT, FIND out what is REALLY needed. IT can do wonderfull things to be sure, but it needs to fit with what is really going on in your company, not what some manager thinks should be going on.

    Make sure your management decisions can be executed, first observe what REALLY goes on, plan your changes, then TRY THEM YOURSELVE, with FULL pressure. If you can't do it, your employees can't do it and what counts isbeing able to do it on the busiest day of the year.

    The most perfect example, testing an application with just 3 records in the database for performance. My job was to convert the old data, if I pushed more then ten records in, performance crumbled. Took me MONTHS to confince them that the problem was in the application, not my conversion (for every insert MILLIONS of reads were being done thanks to the most idiotic database design in history (no keys), compounded by some really really bad code). But they TESTED IT and it worked fine. Yah, 3 records and those not even fully fleshed out.

    I could rant on for hours about bone-headed mistakes of all kinds, but basically FORCE management to get a clue and the only way to do that is BACK TO THE WORKFLOOR!

    99% of IT projects that end up unused or not meeting requirements can simply be explained because they were designed without knowing what the real situation is.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  41. it's geeks vs. results!! by jgarra23 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem isn't management not seeing the benefit of IT, it is the lack of management skills within IT leadership and the typical geek mentality which is counter productive to traditional business.

    I'm not saying that either one is better or doesn't have a place but workers in IT & particularly IT leadership need to start thinking that those business management classes in college are a good idea to at least take & listen in on. You're not going to convince the ones with deep pockets (upper management) to keep you around if you don't show your value up front to them. Sure, their practices may be antiquated but they are time-tested and in their eyes, work.

    Geeks are also going to need to realize that not all things are academic, business leaders expect results, not some elegant solution that looks cool in an IDE. There's that classic line from Ghostbusters I remember, "I've worked in the private sector. They expect results. You've never been out of college. You don't know what it's like out there."

    Maybe it's not that extreme but that is the truth, like it or not.

  42. Easy solution by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

    One good friend of mine who works as a network admin for an unnamed estate agent had this problem. Once upon a time he had 3 people working for him, maintaining the impressive stack of servers and clients connected to them. Slowly but surely, management became increasingly stingy and one by one his minions had to be relieved, as the IT budget dried up. Eventually he even had to sell off some of the servers just to make sure he had enough money to pay himself (oh yes, IT really were disconnected from management in an impressive fashion). After running the network on it's barebones configuration for several months, not receiving pay during that time, and after lodging several complaints I suggested that come the next power blip (a common occurrence in the south of Spain), he just doesn't turn the servers back on again.

    One such blip happened hours before a crucial sales meeting and Bob was at home. They called screaming he get the network operational, and said he would except he hadn't been paid in months and couldn't afford the petrol in the car (a slight lie, due to excess server sales). Anyway, needless to say he got his cut in the end plus some extras.

    Management often hate IT until they're groping around in the dark begging for them. Sometimes it can be healthy to 'demonstrate' why IT are important to management I think.

    --
    throw new NoSignatureException();
    1. Re:Easy solution by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

      In the us they can't make you come to the work with out pay they can go to jail for that.

  43. The problem is systemic by damburger · · Score: 1

    This is a part of capitalism I'm afraid. Power in any business goes towards those with charm, acumen and ruthlessness rather than any particular technical ability, so a clique of borderline sociopaths with decent accounting skills and winning smiles rises to the top of management, and has an unsurprising disdain for those people tinkering away competently but without the ability to use others as rungs on the ladder.

    --
    If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
  44. IT guys don't make it to board level by Phurge · · Score: 1

    How many IT managers make it to the board of manufacturing companies (or any other industry except IT Boards). Boards typically comprise operational guys, ex marketing/sales guys and a bean-counter. Not many sys-admins get that high up the chain, so they get overlooked at board level.

    --
    I'll see your hokum and raise you a boondoggle.
  45. Problem: Managers See IT as a Cost vs. a Benefit by penguin_dance · · Score: 1

    Funny that this comes after yesterday's IT Labor Shortage is Just a Myth.

    I can sum it down into language even managers understand, "IT make money go bye-bye." While other departments are seen as money generators for the company, IT is thought of as a cost.

    They often don't see the cost/benefit ratio or how IT HELPS them make money, they see it as an expense and a drain on the bottom line. And especially they don't understand that you will have to upgrade the technology from time to time. And when it is upgraded, it becomes a major expense and overhaul because it's been such a long time since the last one.

    I would love to see a "day without IT." Turn off all the computer systems, phones, anything related to the IT department and let them see how much business gets done.

    --
    If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
  46. Domain perspective versus IT implementation by grandpa-geek · · Score: 1

    If you look at some application domains (and my example is the world of electric power), executives -- or even domain technical experts -- talk about doing things from a domain perspective. They often don't mention -- or seem to think about the fact -- that many of the things they are talking about are actually being implemented in information technology.

    For example, very few of the reliability standards talk about the communications and computation that implement what the standard addresses. You have activities that can only be accomplished by remote control (implying data communications) but the only mention of communications in the standards is related to voice telephone procedures.

    This can turn into a very serious blind spot. In electric power there is not only a wall between executives and IT, but another wall between IT and real-time operational control. I wouldn't be surprised to find the same thing in manufacturing companies.

    At a meeting in a context unrelated to this discussion, someone pointed out that people who are good at math and science don't run for political office, and that perhaps their weakness at math and science is what got them into a field where running for political office is something people do. The same may apply to management. Some people go into management because they aren't good at technical work. Then the management culture gets ahold of them and they become uncomfortable with IT and IT people.

    It is about time that computers and technology became core parts of a general education.

  47. I've seen it both ways by jollyreaper · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've seen shitty and arrogant IT departments, I've seen friendly ones.

    The people who say IT is mostly support, they have it exactly right. IT is a support function unless the business's main product is IT. Stupid management always devalues the workers, the people who keep the place running. In this regard, IT is not special. Sometimes IT is staffed by arrogant asses who deserve to be mocked, just like you can have rude janitors or marketing weenies. Again, nothing new here.

    In a healthy organization, IT's attitude is "How do we make things better?" I'm always the Excel go-to guy since most people don't have the time to learn all the tricks. I'm fine with that. I've got a thousand tricks and most people only need to know a few of them. I set their sheet up the way they need it, they'll learn just the tricks they need and will be happy.

    IT is always lacking for resources? Most departments are. My dad worked as a mechanic for the phone company motor pool and he was constantly complaining about how they had to make bricks without straw. Management saw them as nothing more than a cost center, never appreciating the value they provided. They increased the average age of the fleet from 10 to 20 years. Oh, that's great. Yes, you're cutting down on procurement costs but did you notice how maintenance is skyrocketing? No, that chart wasn't in the meeting. That's great.

    Good IT makes itself available to the business, makes things run more efficiently and is invaluable. Ask the workers or management what would happen if the IT staff all got hit by a bus. If the response is "Oh my God, we'd be so fucked," that's a good IT department. If they just get this wistful little smile on their faces, that's a bad IT department.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:I've seen it both ways by starfishsystems · · Score: 1
      Ask the workers or management what would happen if the IT staff all got hit by a bus. If the response is "Oh my God, we'd be so fucked," that's a good IT department.

      I recall this point being discussed at USENIX many years ago. Actually, it's the sign of a bad IT department when systems are so incomprehensible and brittle that they require constant attention from staff.

      A good IT department runs smoothly and with a minimum of drama. It does not fall apart the minute that staff turn their attention to the important tasks of design and planning.

      Ironically, there is very tight coupling between cause and effect in a bad environment, considerable buffering in a good environment. This of course creates a terrible misperception in which senior management may tends not to value or reward or finance good IT management.

      --
      Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
    2. Re:I've seen it both ways by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      There are two points I'd make:

      1) Sometimes IT is handed a raw deal by those that came before... The network I'm handed is a mess... I'd love to fix the issues the real way (ie spending money to repair or replace everything), but Management won't got for that... So instead I do more duck tape and super glue fixes... After a year I'm down to random failures only a couple times a day...

      2) Sometimes it's not IT that causes drama, but management tying IT's hands. For instance I had a series of printers die... The manufacturer basically told me to sod off and not bother them again about their shitty printers. So I had to put in a request for new printers, which needs to bounce through a dozen layers of management cruft before they can be ordered. In the meantime I have people that are screaming at me because they don't have printers... Before this year even started I suggested having spar printers on hand for emergencies like this, but management vetoed anything more than we absolutely had to have. So Drama happens and it's not my fault, but I'm left holding the bag...

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
  48. No full-time staff for basic utilities by chthon · · Score: 1

    All these things are installed once, and when you have a problem, you get an electrician or a plumber. This is called outsourcing.

    IT the infrastructure is about cabling, PC's and delivered software. No reason why you would not or could not outsource this either. However, from a certain company size you might need someone who is able to design and plan your IT infrastructure and hand this out to a contractor for implementation and maintenance.

    Someone should come up with figures how basic IT improves productivity, e.g. how does the introduction of word processing enhance productivity ? Spreadsheet ? e-mail and other communication software ? If a company has these tools, how much would it cost them if they where completely removed, or how much less work would they be able to do if these where missing ?

    A level higher is the introduction of a programmer in the company. A good programmer can add to or multiply the above productivity improvements. Again, you should ask the question : what would it cost me in time and personnel to perform the same amount of work, or how much work would we have only done with only this number of personnel ?

    My experience up 'till now leads me to think that the single most important piece of software to make the most of a programmer, to enter ideas and follow up projects, to instill an ongoing process of improvement by software through the company, is the installation of bug/problem/idea tracking software. I personally find trac ideal for such a situation, because it is easy and fast to set up and use. If people have ideas, questions or problems, they should be able to enter them without much problems, difficulty or loss of time. This also makes it much easier to classify what is solved, i.e. does the programmer need to do much bug fixes, and of which kind, or can he concentrate on problem solving ? What is the turnaround time between entry and deployment, etc...

  49. Yes and No. Value versus Advantage by gelfling · · Score: 1

    All of those companies outsource to a huge degree. Clearly "IT" has little value in and of itself. What does have value is a subset of their critical applications infrastructure. But the other 90% falls squarely in the laps of people like me who send the work to India, South America, China to do it for 1/10th the cost. If that work had any inherent strategic value they wouldn't outsource.

    1. Re:Yes and No. Value versus Advantage by wtansill · · Score: 1

      Clearly "IT" has little value in and of itself. What does have value is a subset of their critical applications infrastructure. But the other 90% falls squarely in the laps of people like me who send the work to India, South America, China to do it for 1/10th the cost. If that work had any inherent strategic value they wouldn't outsource.
      And that is the crux of the issue. Clearly, you are too shortsighted to see that you are slitting your own throat. Where the hell will your experienced staff come from (you know, the ones who maintain the systems you consider "critical") if they do not first gain some experience on lesser, or "non-critical" systems? They have to learn somewhere.
      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
    2. Re:Yes and No. Value versus Advantage by gelfling · · Score: 1

      My critical staff will come from and will stay outside of the US. I don't a big uptick in American technical graduates to fill those slots anyway. And for the few who do there will always be advanced jobs for them.

      About 80% of the lifecycle cost of an IT system is people, as opposed to say 9% of the total cost for a car company to produce a car. So you can it have one of two ways, you can crush that ratio down to 9% for IT and eliminate 90% of the jobs everywhere, or you can eliminate 60-80% of that 80% cost by doing the job elsewhere. And if Americans were smart they'd start educating their workforce to be the people who design the new systems that automate away the 90% of labor component through smart automation and management. But hanging on to coder and sysadmin jobs is like hanging on to textile and furniture making jobs. Anyone can do it so do it where it costs less. Not all foreigners are fools and newbies you know.

    3. Re:Yes and No. Value versus Advantage by wtansill · · Score: 1

      Not all foreigners are fools and newbies you know.
      No, they are not. But at some point after you've eaten all your seed corn, you go bust for your shortsightedness. You want to automate out the 90% (or whatever the true number is)? Great. Let's see you allocate the money up front to pay for the additional analysis, coding, and infrastructure that it takes to make that happen. But you know what? In most cases, I don't see that happening because hey, we have a deadline -- we have to get this application up and running now!!!.

      So you wind up with crappy systems that take a ton of people to maintain, and then you moan about the back-end costs when you were too cheap to pay for "frills" during the analysis/design/development phase of the lifecycle. So now, you've cheaped out on the front end, you're blaming IT for the fact that you need more people than you think necessary to run your apps, you cheap out on the back end by trying to offshore your labor costs, and then wonder why you can't get qualified local staff when you need them. Sorry, I'm not buying it.
      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
    4. Re:Yes and No. Value versus Advantage by gelfling · · Score: 1

      Actually I wind up with systems that are fairly well maintained and since the success rate of complex systems implementations like CRM, SAP, Tivoli and so on is perhaps no better than 50% regardless of who I use, it's really a kind of zero sum equation either way. But why they fail is a discussion for another day. Hint - it has nothing to do with IT skill, and everything to do with management.

    5. Re:Yes and No. Value versus Advantage by wtansill · · Score: 1

      Hint - it has nothing to do with IT skill, and everything to do with management.
      And on this point we are in agreement. Good luck to you going forward.
      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
  50. Reminds me of a former employer ... by Keyslapper · · Score: 1

    A global Content Delivery Network (not Akamai, their execs are far more intelligent) with some 20 massive Content Access Points around the world. It was run by hotel and insurance tycoons. Still is.

    It came up in a meeting one time that the CFO wanted to get the software to a stable state, then eliminate the engineering department, since it was an "unjustifiable expense".

    The chairman of the VC company that owns said CDN thought this was a good idea.

    Needless to say, this horrified everyone with a clue, and resulted in about 60 resumes pro-actively hitting the market.

    Believe it or not, they're still limping along, 3 years later ... And still have an engineering team ...

  51. I have bad news for most of the IT people here by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    You're not that important. I don't mean that in a nasty way, but in a pragmatic one. There are hundreds of moving parts in a successful business, and any one of them can bring the company to a standstill - IT is just one of them. Can IT help the bottom line? Of course, but so can accounting, reception, marketing, interior decorating, etc. I run a small business, and I do the IT. I'm not very good at it, but I'm passable, and the minor issues we have had are covered. While it may be true that a catastrophic failure would likely cost me tens of thousands of dollars, I can't pay that kind of money to keep IT on retainer - you see, in a business the potential loss does not equate to the ability to pay to prevent a low-probability occurance.

    I am one of those owners that actually bought and display a Despair poster, and I think it's appropriate to consider: http://despair.com/worth.html

    I posted it because I'm in a service industry and it applies to me, too. We are, at times, a necessary evil to our customers. We can also save our clients a large amount of money - sometimes. IT isn't "like" plumbing, or phones, or janitor service, or accounting...but it is just one part of many - essential, but not the prime focus.

    The expense involved in getting IR right (and, to be honest, getting it done even poorly) is negatively perceived because it is necessary to the functioning of a modern business, but doesn't seem to provide any advantage in the marketplace. If you don't have it, it is clearly a disadvantage, but getting the best doesn't translate (proportionally) financially. The becoming-old saw of "if computers have made us so much more efficient, why are we still working more than 40 hours a week to get work done" applies here. IT is part of the ever accelerating treadmill of efficiency, and - honestly - it is hard to justify passing on all the costs.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:I have bad news for most of the IT people here by MagicBox · · Score: 1

      You're not that important.
      -- This is a dumb quote. You may have thought it's a justified one, but no it is not. It is plain DUMB.

      With that said, I do agree with the article. There's a huge disconnect between upper management (mainly at VP level) and Information technology (and to add PROJECT MANAGEMENT). I have experienced issued in several areas with VP level executives, when it comes to them and their understanding of IT, such as them looking at IT as an EXPENSE. IT is not the SALES department. We do not show RETURN like SALES does. The ROI for IT has to be calculated differently. IT is also not considered as an integral part of the proccess for the whole company. See, you have accounting, finance, operations and sales that can all interrelate and need to be in place so a product for example can be successfully brought to market, but IT is looked at as an outside resource, the "expense" part of the project, not an "integral" part. IT is therefore left out of any major and important decisions until the moment comes that "a new system to support the launch of this product is needed". Those companies that have realized that IT is an integral part of the business and need to be treated as a STRATEGIC function (not just as the people who fix your desktop) are big winners, and will have no difficulty seeing the value returned by IT. The rest will keep suffering, losing and making the life of their IT people hell.
      --

      The phaomnneil pweor of the hmuan mnid. Fcuknig amzanig eh!
    2. Re:I have bad news for most of the IT people here by gujo-odori · · Score: 1

      This is totally spot-on. I started out in IT working for a bank in the early 1980s, and my experience at the time was that bankers fundamentally didn't understand anything about IT, most especially the fact that the bank's money *isn't in the vault* - it's in those rows of IBM 3350s in the computer room. It's in those thousands of 9-track tapes in the tape library. And if those don't work, or can't be accessed, it's not much different than if the bank has no money.

      They're not totally ignorant, of course. We did have off-site backup storage in a fireproof vault (although I suspect no one outside of IT knew anything about things that small) and had a disaster recovery contract, although it was only for a cold site. I know hot sites cost a lot more, but I wonder if they fully appreciated how much money the bank would have lost in the days it would have taken IBM to delivery and install enough hardware to get up and running at the cold site if we'd declared a disaster and moved to set up there? It could have been bankruptcy-inducing. We never had to declare a disaster, fortunately, but if the worst had happened, they would have viewed that cold-site contract as penny-wise and pound-foolish. I know they were taking the accounting view/insurer's view/poker player's view (call it pot odds) of "What is the cost difference between a hot-site contract and a cold-site contract Vs. the probability of us having to declare a disaster?" and figured that the odds favored the cold-site contract. That looks great on paper, but if The Big One had hit San Diego and either destroyed the building or rendered it unusable, those stats would have looked a bit dry.

    3. Re:I have bad news for most of the IT people here by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Wow, that touched a nerve. IT is, generally, an expense. It is primarily a support role. A valuable one, but still a support role, just like HR, accounting, finance, marketing, and plant maintenance. Everything would go to hell in a handbasket if any one of those functions was omitted, too. Saying each is critical to the company is true, but is also sensationalistic.

      Now, there are times when IT can generate revenue - such as driving outside sales. They can assist in increasing productivity, too. But it is no more strategic than any other support role, on average.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    4. Re:I have bad news for most of the IT people here by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      HR where I work is considered critical management function, yet we went without anyone doing HR for 3 months do to the staff en mass fleeing the company... On the other hand my job as the network admin is seen as trivial support staff, yet I take a day off because I'm sick and I get a dozen calls (while in the doctor's office for part of it) requiring something to be done 'now'.

      This is the disconnect with management that IT faces regularly.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
  52. This has been talked about before... by citizenklaw · · Score: 1

    One of the main problems is also a lack of alignment between the business and IT, and perception. Often the business will want X and IT will do Y. Not because IT wants to, but because IT does not understand the business well enough. The same is true about the business. I've known of IT Managers that want a system with enough Capacity, Availability and Redundancy to fly two Shuttle Missions. But the don't really understand what they're asking for. They think stuff in IT is endless, does not break, and it's always Available.

    That's why process frameworks such as ITIL and CoBIT work. I know that ITIL is a four letter word for people on both sides of the equation. But it sets expectations, a common process language and structure, and provides accountability to all.

    --
    the future is but past forgotten
  53. The Disconnect Between Management and the Value of by infiniphonic · · Score: 1

    It's like the Fire Dept. saying that the mechanics working on their trucks are not important.

    --
    Crisis is the rule, not the exception.
  54. Vendors and Management are the problem. by SCHecklerX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Upper management should be disallowed from having vendors talk to them unsupervised. The real value in IT is solving business problems. Many times what happens is upper management has been sold a solution by a vendor that doesn't really solve any particular problem, and then we are forced to implement it. In pretty much every case, when this happened to me, I could have led projects to do it cheaper, faster, AND better. I swear, the manager at my last company had stock in Cisco, and the Director (of course) in Microsoft.

    If management had instead gone to IT and said "This is what we need to do" then the real value of IT comes to light as we can work on a solution to that problem, or maybe even give some insight into "Well, with technology, that problem is actually this..let's solve that".

  55. So many companies don't....... by sco_robinso · · Score: 1

    I used to work for an IT consulting company, and for most of our clients, the key was sitting down with them at yearly meetings and having planning meetings and discussions with senior management. We too are victim to executives that want to cut every corner, but since our name is ultimately attached to the level of service being provided, we have to make sure it's done right. We sit down and have basic SLA discussions, and we ask the senior management exactly what they want their technology to provide and in what manner. We tell them, 'If you want your internet and email to be like the power coming out of the wall, simply 'working all the time', this is what it's going to take to get you there...'.

    People here have said much about what management thinks of IT, and what IT thinks of management, but I know in so, so many companies there's never really any high-level sit-downs with the IT manager and senior systems admin and senior management. Before you get stingy on budgets, you have to at least establish a few basic covenants of what the IT strategy is and what you want your IT infrastructure to look like and perform like. With that, 'nines come with a price tag'. Personally, I think this is the responsbility of the IT manager, not necessarily senior management. If the IT manager is running the shop without these levels of understanding, I would first look to them.

    To management, I always liken it to purchasing a basic service for your home, like cable TV. You don't go out and pay a random amount of money for a service which you have no idea as to how many channels you getting and which channels they are. Our society and culture simply can't run that blindly. From the onset, the cable company has fairly straight forward information as to what levels of TV service they're offering, and for what price. With that, there's a basic understanding that the service will be reasonably available with decent quality for most of the time (gripes about Cable companies and Telco's aside). There's a basic understanding of what you're paying for and what you're getting - essentially, an implied SLA. The problem is in IT in business, both sides tend to have a completely opposite picture of what is implied. IT thinks they're going to get a reasonable budget for whatever they need, whilst management might think that can give IT a minimal budget and in return they provide systems with zero downtime.

    You really need to sit down and discuss the basic facets from the onset. With that, the IT department has a responsibility to have a good idea as to what budgets they need and what is needed to privde certain levels of service. That's part of proper IT and business management.

  56. Management does NOT get it - I'm living proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Posting AC, but someone will probably figure out who I am anyway... if it doesn't work, I don't care.

    I was hired by a Fortune 100 company to do desktop support, from my stint there as a temp. When I got there, the IT department was generally viewed by the user base as a joke, and a waste of time; if you DID manage to get through to the India-based help desk (affectionately known as the Helpless Desk), you would still wait up to a MONTH to get someone to visit your cube, or remote in to your system; oh, and forget trying to call someone onsite - no one ever answered their phones, anyway - all calls were screened, and generally ignored.

          I was placed into a support role, and saw an opportunity to make a name for myself, which I quickly did. I changed the wait time on trouble tickets from 3+ weeks to well under 48 hours, answered every e-mail the same day, and, most importantly, answered every call.
    This helped the department shed the previous negative image, and I quickly garnered a reputation as THE public face of IT here in the building. I had dozens of calls, e-mails, cards, and other notes of thanks and gratitude from the user base, from all areas of the company, and was totally happy with where I was. I truly loved my job, because of who I was serving. The people here are absolutely fantastic.

    Then the worst happened - our headquarters was to be restructured. There would be about an 80% cut in personnel in the building, but I knew that most of them would still need support, so I thought my position was safe. That is, until this Friday, when I learned that my team of 7 would be slashed by 2, and I was one of them. So far, the only way I can see this decision being made in the way it was would be with voodoo and chicken entrails, or perhaps faulty divining rods. What's even more interesting is that I actually loved where I worked, and I'm gone, but at least 2 of the ones that survived the cut are wanting to get the hell out.

    Incidentally, no management positions were eliminated in the IT infrastructure, in this series of terminations. Gee, what a shock.

    All I have to say to the brainiacs that cut me is this; you will NEVER find anyone as committed and dedicated to their job, as I was to you - perfect attendance, zero tardiness, and my list of satisfied clients is the entire damn building; and this is the thanks I get... WOW. Just wow.

  57. Re:Security as the roadblock reason. by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    Security is not an excuse to do nothing. A good IT department must strike a balance between security and practical usefulness. If they are incapable of doing that, it is their incompetence that is to blame. After all, any idiot can "secure" a system by refusing to install any software on it. Someone who knows what the Hell they're doing knows what software to install and what not to install.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  58. I think you completely missed the point by RebornData · · Score: 1

    Did you read the article? The entire point is that, done well, IT has considerably more value than a toilet / plumbing / utilities... it doesn't "just work" and stay out of the way -- rather it produces substantial competitive and other business benefits. The best thing a toilet can do is not screw up, while great IT can make a huge difference in a business.

    What's Amazon? It's the Sears catalog business, but with great IT. FedEx came out of nowhere to challenge UPS in the 80's and one of the reasons was package tracking (an IT investment). Citibank's big break came when it deployed (then proprietary) ATMs in NYC and quickly doubled their business. The list goes on...

  59. IT isn't special by Trojan35 · · Score: 1

    I could say the same exact thing for Finance, HR, Payroll, Facilities, Legal... etc. They're all just as important as IT.

    Basically, bad management will be bad, and good management will be good.

    1. Re:IT isn't special by Zeromous · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find a hard time finding anyone here with an IQ 100 or above who disagrees with that statement.

      --
      ---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
  60. Funny... by wtansill · · Score: 1

    In particular, how '[m]ost top executives ... think of IT as an expensive headache that they'd rather not deal with.'
    Oddly enough, that's almost exactly how I feel about most top exectutives...
    --
    The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
  61. IT is a tool by acvh · · Score: 1

    I consider myself most successful when no one thinks of the underlying technical infrastructure and they can just do what they do. It is when new tech is rolled out for no compelling reason that users and management think of IT as a pain in the ass.

    In my last position the corporate IT dept. was always working on the next great enhancement, without considering the effects of the LAST great enhancement. The board would hire a CIO, he would make promises, rollout a big project, and get canned. We had six in a period of 12 years. They were always a friend of an executive, who knew nothing about our business. In my little office I mostly ignored them and ran what we needed.

    The biggest shortcoming in IT people is business knowledge. If you don't understand what our company is doing and what makes it effective, then you can't implement truly beneficial enhancements. I am finding now that IT depts. are very insular, and rule out anyone who might bring such a business oriented mindset to the job.

  62. Perhaps you're working too hard? by loic_2003 · · Score: 1

    I remember hearing of a director asking whether the current IT setup was really neccessary considering nothing ever went wrong...

    1. Re:Perhaps you're working too hard? by willllllllllll · · Score: 1

      Should have said 'no' and see what happened.

  63. Severe lack by gorckat · · Score: 1

    of "Funny" responses.

    Time to add a "Bitter" mod?

  64. Re:IT is a tool by DotNetFreak · · Score: 0

    So true... As a software developer, I am never content with giving what is asked for in the specification. I always try to understand the "why". Only then, I start being able to add real value. The type of value that saves time, money and effort. I believe that what is needed is more people that area able to "cross-over" into a business mindset, while maintaining focus on technology. In a sense, more mature IT people are required. People who not only understand technology and business, but the purpose of technology in business.

  65. Personal observation evolution of IT over 30 years by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been a software developer for over 30 years. Back in the day, the usual IT department even in a large comapny was one or two guys who knew about setting up unix networks.

    Then Microsoft became popular as a desktop environment. The low quality of their entire product range combined with very poor documentation caused in most companies one or two people (usually developers who had played with windows in their spare time) to emerge as the unofficial domain experts on solving microsoft-specific issues.

    Microsoft very quickly realised this and enocuraged this model as it mitigated the need for them to provide support for their own products. That combined with the fact that Microsoft jumped on the 'professional certification' bandwagon led to them creating hundreds of new IT job titles and certifications for them that until then no-one had ever even heard of before, let alone actually needed. Fast forqward a few years and now most IT-driven companies are working under the illusion that there needs to be masses of IT staff usally with different Microsoft certifications to support a simple computer network, which has become a self-fulfilling prophecy beacuse the office network in most places has been made unnecessarily complex by the same Microsoft-trained IT staff, apparently partly as job-preservation and partly to get around the technical shortcomings of Microsoft operating systems and products. now many IT departments have transitioned to an incorrect yet frequently-encounterd mentality that they now believe that their role is to be gatekeepers rather than just to provide a service to the people in comapnies that actually make the companies product or service.

    My point is, that given the above, I think that if anything, management generally massively overvalue IT departments.

    I've seen in most companies that the IT dept get larger budgets than entire production departments, IT employees usually get top-end PC's with widescreen monitors etc. to answer their emails on while developers and engineers, the guys actually making the product, are struggling to compile code bases on hand-me-down hardware.

  66. Lack of Ambition by Mutatis+Mutandis · · Score: 1

    In my eyes the fundamental problem is the lack of ambition of many IT managers and IT departments. This isn't the same as nerdiness, but it is a consequence of it. It does not occur to most IT managers that they should strive to make the company better -- more efficient, more profitable. It does not occur to them that they should try to change and improve the way in which people work. As a matter of fact, I've heard IT managers blithely and explicitly state that they don't want to contribute to better business processes; they just want to regard the business processes as a given, write a full set of specifications around it, and write some software to support it.

    If Apple had been governed by this spirit, they would have produced a handy mini-computer to help people manage their gramophone records, not the iPod. If Amazon had had this mindset, their website would be accessible only from bookshops. Some people have vision, and others do not. If knowledge is power, then information could be money, but some people don't recognize money even if they step on it every day.

    Instead, such IT managers tend to focus on making a computer run better. Perhaps a new printer server, and a safer anti-virus scanner. Replace all telephones by a new type, which nobody understands. Rewrite all the old COBOL software in .NET, but keep the same screen layout, to avoid confusing the users. Demand that no software installations are done, however small, if someone in Brazil did not write an automated installation script. Deliver all new PCs with Windows Vista, regardless of which applications people want to run on them. Usually all the good IT people walk away from such tedious and surreal jobs, but worse, the business leaderships walks away from it as well. If it's plumbing and routine maintenance, they don't want to think about it; and why should they? And why spend money on something which doesn't promise any real improvement to the bottom line?

    As I wrote, nerdiness plays a role in this. Too many IT people just don't seem to have a serious interest in what happens outside their own department; they just want to do hardware or software. They don't understand business, they don't understand other forms of engineering, and they don't understand R&D -- and they don't want to! For business users, these are horrible people to deal with. I have gone as far as recommending that we shouldn't hire more professional IT people for the IT department, but engineers and scientists and economists with an interest in IT. That is, no doubt, unfair; there are IT professionals with wider ambitions and skill sets. Unfortunately, the average IT department doesn't see, to be able to hire or retain them.

    The final tailspin usually comes when this curious, stoical detachment from the core business is formalized. The IT people think it over and say, we don't talk to the people in the business groups anyway, so why not all sit together and enjoy our own company, in one big IT department? And why not outsource all the support functions to the Comores? If you don't have any meaningful contact anyway, then distance indeed doesn't matter.

    But in reality, that isn't a sustainable model. Some people in the business department still need some innovative, creative IT work done, and because the IT department doesn't seem interested in or capable of solving the problem (and at this moment the IT department often seems as mythical as the Kraken), they will do the work themselves. Getting together a few gifted amateurs, and start over from scratch as if the IT department never existed (while cursing it at the same time, of course). Then a manager will have the bright idea of formalizing this into a new IT group, and so the wheel turns round again...

  67. This explains a lot. by InsertCleverUsername · · Score: 1

    top executives at most companies fail to recognize the value of IT, having a tendency to think of information technology as a basic utility, like plumbing... Is this why management is always shitting on our work?


    --
    Ask me about my sig!
  68. I know, I know... by RobDude · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is slashdot and all; but this is basically just an IT circle jerk where we talk about how unvalued we are and how nothing could happen without us.

    'Value' is determined by the market. If companies that 'valued' IT were making buckets more money than companies that don't; then you'd see a trend where all companies want IT.

    The simple fact of the matter is, as much as it might hurt us geeks (I am, after all, IT myself); unless you are at a Software Company whose job it is to product software or something along those lines; IT is just a secondary consideration.

    I used to work at Allstate.

    Allstate sells insurance.

    To sell insurance well, Allstate may very well need things like Electricity, plumbing, and IT. But IT has nothing to do with it's core business. Long before computers were commonplace, Allstate's business model existed, and Allstate made money.

    IT doesn't 'bring in money'. At best, you could say that IT let's customers more easily pay or enroll for a service; but, all of the competators do it too; so it's just a big wash. Allstate's IT is no different than it's cleaning staff - it is a cost of doing business.

    And to every Exec (with the possible exception of a CTO), one IT guy is as good as any other IT guy. As long as the servers are running nobody cares. /Truth

    1. Re:I know, I know... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      But IT has nothing to do with it's core business. Long before computers were commonplace, Allstate's business model existed, and Allstate made money.

      This is true, however, it can drive efficiency, make or break the company based on information leakage, and certainly isn't a candidate for outsourcing - your core business processes are likely computerized and it's a lot easier to maintain good info security when you control who gets to look at your info. Using a plumbing analogy, you don't care if the plumber takes pipes out of your building because you don't care about what's in them.

      And to every Exec (with the possible exception of a CTO), one IT guy is as good as any other IT guy. As long as the servers are running nobody cares. /Truth

      Kinda sorta. Some execs lump software dev in with IT. For instance, Atari.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  69. Management thinks the same about everyone else by f1055man · · Score: 1

    Value to a company is inversely proportional to your value to management. Golf is hard and ass kissing is nasty. That's why they make the big money.

  70. Who built that wall? by PPH · · Score: 1

    Quite a bit of what TFA says rings true. But "the wall" of which they speak is often built and maintained by the IT department in my experience.

    IT initiatives to standardize processes, utilize COTS products and engage in massive re-engineering projects are often undertaken in spite of their effects on operating divisions. Process standardization usually means IT processes, not those of the customer organizations. Likewise, tools and platforms are selected to make the IT department's job easier. Its up to the customer to modify their processes in order to conform to the IT-mandated architecture. And attempts to implement smaller, pilot projects, re-engineer from the bottom up, use a flexible, distributed architecture to accommodate differences between departments operating needs has run into IT opposition to the "one big database managing everything" view of the world.

    Back in the old mainframe days, it was the people in white lab coats in mysterious rooms filled with strange equipment that was too complex for mere mortals to comprehend, so don't bother asking. Once mini computers and then PCs became available to individual departments, the IT folks were temporarily exposed as 'mere mortals' figured out how this stuff actually worked. IT pushed back. The dot-com boom, together with buzzwords like 'enterprise solutions' provided by systems vendors scared management into putting IT management up on a pedestal, where they could command grand projects sweeping across the organization. Never mind that they didn't do too much for the companies core business of building widgets.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  71. a couple of months ago, I explained this all. by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    In a long winded post about IT and management.

    In business school, they teach the PHB's if you're not management and you're not productive, you're not worth much.

    managers understand they don't produce anything. They also understand that IT doesn't produce anything.

    The disconnect comes in where management refuses to treat IT staff as equals or colleagues or contemporaries.

    Management is somewhat elitist in this regard. IT staff manage equipment in much the same way that PHBs manage people, only more effective.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  72. More business IT degrees needed by majortom1981 · · Score: 1

    This is the exact reason why I love the degree that I took. It was an IT degree that was based in business. All the same business courses that business admins take with IT courses thrown it with it. I came out knowing how business is runa nd how IT relates to the business.

    I think more colleges should do this so that more graduates know how business works.

    I also think this is due to A lot of people in the IT field bbecause it pays alot. I feel most people dont like doing it jobs. I love my it job and I am always trying to improve the network without huge expenditures and without overburdening the people who use the systems.

    If IT departments had more people who loved there job and loved doing IT we wouldnt have these problems.

  73. Microsoft will Replace your IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft Online Services was announced last week by Bill Gates at the Microsoft Office SharePoint Conference. This service will provide hosted Exchange, SharePoint, and LiveMeeting in its initial offering. More info is available at mosbeta.com.

  74. That's why the Internet... by ardle · · Score: 1

    ...is a series of tubes :-)

  75. Vision by definate · · Score: 1

    I have seen this at my organization. It is not that they don't understand that IT produces value for the company, it's that it produces it indirectly and is hard to measure. This is why a lot of accountants get to the IT department when they are using activity based costing, they often skip over it and just assign a fixed cost.

    I have found that to attempt to rectify some of these problems, the IT department needs to be seen in an evolving context which better supports the organization. By this I mean the IT department needs to have it's own vision in relation to the business, which allows goals to be produced, which allows measurable progress, which allows the organization to see the IT department as not just a utility.

    Additionally developing a vision for the IT department allows better communication, team generation and has many other advantages.

    When originally realizing this problem I coined the term, electrical plumbers. We don't pro-actively help the business, we just fix it when it breaks.

    --
    This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  76. The real problem is that IT is hard by willllllllllll · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The real problem is that IT is hard - hard to define requirements - hard to predict benefits - hard to predict timelines compared to employing more people.

    Top-level management are usually people people; that's why they did MBAs rather than get real qualifications. Top-level management already have a head full of business domain knowledge (if you're lucky) and techniques for climbing the greasy pole (usually), and have to spend time on inter-company and inter-manager warfare.

    I have consistently had problems getting clients to think about how their business works. They have got along for years without having to worry about it because they delegate responsibility to lower-level managers, who in turn delegate to the workers; between them, the various levels of management and employees use their brains and get the job done.

    IT isn't like that - you tell a computer to do X and it'll do X, even if it should 'do X unless [really complex exception case], in which case do Y'. So there is an upfront cost to IT of defining what and how the business really does, and then checking it and checking it again. Worse still, form the POV of top management, this requires that the value of the knowledge of the lowest-level staff is acknowledged, while at the same time showing how little the top managers understand the details of their business - WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED: the top-level guys are paid for direction not operational detail. But people being people, any deficiencies are implicitly taken to be criticism and can be used in inter-manager warfare.

    I'd like to note that mitigating these factors is a large part of what led to Agile. But Agile admits that it can fall into the 'hard to predict' trap, whereas waterfall and 'glittering phalanx' claim not to.

    1. Re:The real problem is that IT is hard by willllllllllll · · Score: 2, Funny
      'glittering phalanx' is the Anderson Consulting approach

      .

      phalanx :- launch a large block of andersons at the problem

      glittering :- the andersons are so expensive you'd expect them to be gold-plated

      .

      An anderson is one of the many faceless employees of Anderson Consulting.

    2. Re:The real problem is that IT is hard by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      I thought their approach was the busload of kiddies.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  77. I wish I was treated like a plumber by jitterysquid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't constantly second-guess my plumber; I treat him and his solutions with respect because he knows more than I ever will about plumbing. I pay my plumber a lot of money for his expertise.

  78. I've seen the failures. by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    I've personally seen a company go out of business due to a failed backup system and catastrophic data loss. That company folded simply due to the threat of stakeholder lawsuits.

    A decent backup system coupled with a disaster recovery plan and routine testing would have saved that particular company.

    Yet another company was almost taken over by federal regulators. Years of IT neglect put customer data and accounts at risk. After repeated failed IT audits, the feds were about 6 months away from taking over operations of the "business". Luckily, the CEO saw the writing on the wall, hired me, and a year later was passing federal IT audits with flying colors.

    I've yet to see a company with shabby IT that had the rest of its house in order. Neglected IT is a symptom of a bigger, systemic, problem in the company. Bad IT is not the only symptom of a badly run company, low-morale, high-employee turnover, and executives constantly putting out fires instead of growing the business are signs of management that needs to go.

    OK, maybe there are some businesses that can run with IT systems held together with duct tape, but eventually as business becomes more reliant on technology, the long term health of those businesses will suffer.

    Risk mitigation is the key here. A good executive team reduces a company's exposure to risk both internally and externally. Dilapidated IT is an internal risk that can be minimized with good budgeting and sound planning. Bad executives look at IT as "the guys that fix the phones and printers". They should be looking at IT as an important part of operations and growth strategy.

    -ted

  79. Re:Personal observation evolution of IT over 30 ye by starfishsystems · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I like what you wrote there, as I have a similar background and saw the same general trend happening over that time period. But my interpretation is a bit different. I'll offer it for contrast.

    Unix became enormously popular at a time when networked computer hardware was reliable and readily available, but still quite expensive. Software licenses for these systems were comparably expensive. Those economics allowed organizations to justify hiring highly competent staff in order to maximize return on investment. The culture was inherited to some degree from the mainframe culture, driven from the top down, and partly from a research culture, driven by design and engineering principles, to support a reliable multiuser environment with good access controls and other security measures.

    Microsoft entered into this environment from the extreme bottom end of the scale. It was all about cheapness. No multiuser model, therefore no access controls, and well, conspicuous neglect of security. One of the tricks, I would say, for creating a perception of affordability was that users were expected to maintain their own systems, a situation which persists at many sites to this day. The real cost of managing these systems, dealing with misconfiguration and security issues and so on, can therefore be hidden, though doing so leads to all sorts of trouble and unrealistic expectations.

    As these systems become more complex, the need for more expert system administration becomes greater and more difficult to hide. But these same systems are also becoming cheaper, so the relative cost of system administration goes up and also becomes more difficult to hide.

    Compound this with the further complexity and brittleness of retrofitting multiuser security, and there will be plenty of dissatisfaction to share around. I don't envy the users who have to endure these systems and the quality of support that goes with them, nor the staff who have to support them. It's a real shame. Which is why I ended up as an open source guy.

    To come back your point about management overvaluing the IT department, I end up thinking that it's a bit like the dilemma we face with valuing a police force that is not as effective as we'd like it to be. This question troubles me greatly. Some police departments, like some IT departments, are frankly dysfunctional. How can we possibly fix them? By tying funding to performance? I think so, but too much funding creates complacency and too little creates despair. From where I stand, IT departments are all too often in the despair zone, and that does nobody good. I wish that I could be as clear about policing. Perhaps someone else can make that point.

    --
    Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
  80. You're a salesman too by gelshocker · · Score: 1

    IT a black box that's not sexy and they don't want to share their bonuses with.

    You need to perform a sales pitch and explain in layman terms why execs need to pay for IT services, with respect to the business you're in. Even though they know you have them by the balls as without IT no-one can possibly do business.

    A little respect (and empathy) would go a long way to breaking the communication barrier. What, you really think they know how to govern IT? That's your job; you need to contribute and stop bickering.

  81. Utility, eh? by ocbwilg · · Score: 1

    So here's a way to think of it. The phone company is a utility. What would your company do with no phone service? The electric company is a utility. What would your company do with no electricity? The water company is a utility. What would your company do with no water? Now if you think of Information Technology as a utility, how would your company survive without information?

    To an extent I understand the "IT as a utility" mindset. C-levels want utility-grade reliability. They want utility-grade predictability when it comes to costs. They want IT to be so integrated into the company that people think of it like water/electricity/phone service, i.e., they use it without even thinking. The problem is, information as a resource is far more complex than electricity, water, or phone service. You don't need to understand electricity or water to be able to use it. You do need to understand information, and information technology.

  82. Re:Personal observation evolution of IT over 30 ye by ibsteve2u · · Score: 0

    Your comment is a familiar refrain to me, but I was that person who you probably hated.

    Having played in VMS and 'nix, I quickly tired of the "That can't be done.", "Please submit your software modification and implementation requests by the end of this quarter for next year's end-of-year merit review process." IT types who lived in the corporate "glass houses".

    When Microsoft showed up, I loved it. Developing on a platform where I could just say "Could you write down what you want and walk me through it once?"...and then deliver the first prototype in a week or two and then be done with it in a month or so and move on.

    Competence was its own reward - before long, I ran the networks and the Vaxes and the 'nix boxes locally - I remember DCL fondly to this day. And "top end PCs"? Not hardly - I used the slowest boxes around for development - make it run fast there, and it will run fast anywhere was my mantra. The only time I went for "top end" equipment was when it was for something significant, like the monitoring system that sped up one line roughly 15%. Of course, I bought top end equipment out of my own pocket for use at home to develop for the business...

    The corporate IT boyz eventually got their revenge by spinning the fable that support consolidation was the final solution for cost savings and efficiency (with the help of propaganda from people like Gartner) and so were able to first marginalize and then eventually eliminate me remotely from their center of power several states away.

    But it was fun while it lasted.

    lollll...and last I heard, my old factory was back to the "Grit your teeth, submit a request, and grind your teeth monthly while you attempt to interpret the inane rejections and delays." model of ye olde "glass house" era, and they don't like it.

    I guess hindsight IS pretty clear; they actually miss having "that guy" locally who they could go to with a problem or a request and the "fix for what ailed 'em" would just happen.

    On the other hand, Microsoft's operating systems have embarked upon a journey towards eventually becoming hugely rigid structures themselves, so I'd say they have their own "glass house" warriors - who are winning.

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  83. From whose perspective? A long term overview by Douglas+Goodall · · Score: 1

    I read through this thread and I have seen many postings of examples about the various experiences and situations that have happened to lots of people. It might be helpful at this point to review the perspectives and priorities of the different players in this game. Lets start at the beginning with the great untold truth. The benefit of enhancing a business process with computer support stems from the pre-automation analysis of the paper system, and not generally the computers themselves. In many cases, if you streamline the business process in order to make it suitable for automation, and you were to stop just short of buying the computers and investing in software, and you went ahead and subsequently used to newly optimized system, you would gain most of the advantage for a lot less cost and complexity. I have known this in my heart for many years, but have spoken of it only a few times. In my youth, in the days of the mainframes, analysts would review the business process and design systems to support that process, and programmer analysts would construct technological infrastructure to automate those processes. In this scenario, the business needs are actually reviewed by business analysts who understand the big picture and how the company operates at a profit. In the old days, computers were big and expensive, and computer time was expensive, and business data processing was scheduled into a queue and was performed on a priority basis at the processing center, and the value of the data being processed had to be worth the analysis, programming time, and data processing costs. There horizontal applications were the programming languages and environments, such as a manufacturer's mainframe and the data processing support services provided in the environment, such as database support bound into the operating system. (IBM main frame style). Some vertical applications were sold openly but many were developed in-house by a company for their own use. The high costs of data processing forced the companies to use a very rigid sequence of requirements/analysis/implementation/operation (then recurse). Then came microprocessors and computers everywhere you look. Suddenly any company could buy computers and use then for company data processing needs at much lower costs. They could shoot from the hip and often things would work out ok, relative to the old way and the old costs. Chaos ruled as people went about applying these less expensive computers to any aspect of the business processes that could benefit from some automation. The discipline of the old days, such as a need to do a business analysis to be sure that the data processing solution was comprehensive and efficient and completely met the businesses needs well away. Rogue technology solutions sprung up and got stuck in closets all over the place, but these solutions were not as well analysed or as complete as the previous mainframe solutions, and often certain aspects of the situation were ignored because they weren't very visible in the mainframe environment, but they were there, such as service plans to keep critical systems up, and centralized backup of data, and often a vendor supplied system engineer with an office on-site filled with microfilm to keep the system tuned well. As these quickly constructed micro-solutions started to fail because of hardware unreliability of consumer grade hardware and software, business managers started having to do some explaining about why the solutions they promoted that was to save money was broken and the business process that kept the company profitable was broken. In the old days, there was a saying about the value of simple saying, "Lets go IBM", because the full treatment of analysts, and programming and good expensive hardware and support usually resulted in a maintainable working system that may still be running even though it was written in COBOL before many of us were alive. What we had since the IBM-PC was a situation were consultants with a good understanding of microcomputers and programming languages and databas

  84. Re:Security as the roadblock reason. by javaxman · · Score: 1

    Most likely,
    a) the help desk person has been told they may be reprimanded/fired if they do anything against the IT Security policies like install anything not on the "supported software" list.
    b) the help desk person is NOT someone who knows what the Hell they are doing, or they'd have a job that pays better than what the management has decided help desk staff is worth.
    c) if the help desk drone is in a hurry to get you off the phone, they're being evaluated based on 'call time resolution', which usually is how long it takes them to get you to go away...

    clearly, these are not the fault of the help desk drone, they're all the fault of management... and probably not IT management, at that...

    If you're an IT programmer, your CIO and Security Officer need to get together and either create a development facility ( read: separate network ) where you can install all the software you want and surf all the scary websites you want, or they need to create a process where you can get your special-purpose development software special-purpose approval in less than 7 months' time. If they can't do either, or don't see the need, you can work to convince them, live with their decision, or find a company with different goals and leadership. The ISO IT Security standard that your company's policies are likely based on says they really need to create that separate development network.

    Really, this is likely *all* about your director of Security.