Cyber Attacks against Tibetan Communities

UnderAttack writes "The SANS Internet Storm Center reports about an increasing number of sophisticated and targeted cyber attacks against Tibetan NGOs. These attacks appear to be related to attacks against other anti-chinese groups like Falun Gong. 'There is lots of media coverage on the protests in Tibet. Something that lies under the surface, and rarely gets a blip in the press, are the various targeted cyber attacks that have been taking place against these various communities recently. These attacks are not limited to various Tibetan NGOs and support groups. They have been reported dating back to 2002, and even somewhat before that, and have affected several other communities, including Falun Gong and the Uyghurs.'"

Comments

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[KiloByte]

And since guys doing such things for fun are nearly entirely pro-Tibet, who is left as the only interested party?

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[mrbluze]

And since guys doing such things for fun are nearly entirely pro-Tibet, who is left as the only interested party?

Possibly you're right. But I wouldn't be surprised if something much worse than cyber-attacks is awaiting the freedom-seeking Tibetans.. err, 'Terrorists', after the Olympic Games are finished.

The Chinese government is red-faced on this and it hasn't even begun to wreak its vengeance.

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[KiloByte]

Possibly you're right. But I wouldn't be surprised if something much worse than [...] You have a strange way of saying "I could bet my life that".

In my dad's school, one of the kids started laughing when the grave news of Stalin's death were announced. The next day, his whole family went missing.
The China is still in the phase of jailing folks over what their kid said...

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[PopeRatzo]

I don't know why the international community isn't using the Olympics to put pressure on China regarding Tibet.

A threat of a boycott would do wonders for China's behavior. We dropped out of the 1980 Olympics in Moscow for the same reasons, and the Soviet Union fell in the next decade (not that they were directly related).

But it seems most of the world's leaders are so busy sucking at the teat of China's huge market and cheap labor and doesn't want to scotch a sweet economic deal. Or I guess I should say the people the world's leaders work for are the ones who won't allow a boycott.

I know I won't watch the Olympics this year. Not One Bit.

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[asuffield]

On the whole, I find it unlikely. When the Chinese government is involved in that sort of thing, they don't attack web servers, they bury people in unmarked holes. There is no evidence, no media coverage, no identifiable body or even any indication that there is a body. The people who offended them just don't show up for work one morning, and nobody sees them again. It doesn't even matter what country they live in - the arm of the Chinese government is very long, and law enforcement tends to turn a blind eye to it because they're either scared (nearby countries) or they just don't care about "those damn Chinese" fighting amongst themselves again (distant countries). It's always simple, quick, anonymous, pretty much untraceable, and immediately terminates the "problem".

This is something quite different: it's noisy and public and largely ineffective in the long run. The Chinese government just doesn't do noisy, public, and ineffective. They may not be very nice, but they're still in power because they are very good at what they do.

What we have here will be the same thing that it always is: a bunch of hoodlums taking the "law" into their own hands. Some people like this go out and find some random person from a group they don't like, and administer a beating, saying that they deserve it. Some attack web servers. It's all the same thing really.

The media doesn't bother reporting the beatings, because a few dozen incidents of random violence aren't news. A few dozen defaced websites still is, for some reason.

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[Anonymous Coward]

This came up recently in German media, and the response of both government and NOC officials was that if we were to boycott olympics on political reasons, calling for a boycott *now* would be double-measured. A spokesman said (and I'm forced to agree, though I don't quite like it) that if one were to call for a boycott on the grounds of China violating human rights, one should consider that there have been thousands of the usual executions and imprisonments since the games were awarded to China, and no one called for a boycott then. So, doing it now would put the human rights of the Tibetans above those of native Chinese...

Really a difficult situation. Boycotts, just like strikes, are always unjust as they mostly hit the wrong guys. I do, however, hope that western athletes will use the olympics as a forum discussing this, e.g. publicly asking why there are no teams representing Tibet and Taiwan.

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[Anonymous Coward]

IMHO, you guys misunderestimated the passion of Chinese youth irritated by CNN.

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[h4rm0ny]

That's a terrible excuse from the German official. It's exactly saying "I didn't speak out about one thing someone did wrong, so I'm not going to speak out about something else." And if somehow people did say "why didn't you protest against native chinese human rights violations" (not that anyone who cares about this actually would object to at least doing something rather than nothing), it would at least be someone asking about native chinese rights violations which is more publicity than they normally get in the West.

Even as ways of rationalising a lack of conscience for the sake of self-interest, it's got to be one of the worst I've ever heard.

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[Anonymous Coward]

There is no explanation for that if you think in terms of nationalities. There is also no reason why the EU politicians let China unfair competition (if you treat people like disposable resource, that's unfair) eat up the EU markets driving their electors out of business when protectionism was a relatively cheap measure.

If you think in terms of the financial elite (or the elite that currently uses finance as a mean of control) which moves capital over nations like chess pieces over a board, then the acceptance of whatever terms the chinese government comes up with is obvious.

If I were bad and powerful enough I'd do the same: chinese were culturally devastated by communism, now they have in mind money and the american model. Without all the fluff about democracy and justice. Perfect minions.

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[unlametheweak]

I do, however, hope that western athletes will use the Olympics as a forum discussing this, e.g. publicly asking why there are no teams representing Tibet and Taiwan. Idealistic, and unrealistic. Olympic athletes are interested in careers, sponsorship endorsements etc... and NOT politics.

I remember when Canadian Olympians were invited by the Japanese government to go to schools in Japan. There was an incredible lack of enthusiasm. These athletes would rather be training than wasting their time on politics; much less a political stance that most countries, businesses, and people could really care less about. Money talks, and there is not a lot of money for supporting an underdog political policy like Tibetan freedom or independence.

Me personally, I would love to see a boycott of the Chinese Olympics. Realistically, China should not have even been a contender; but the Olympics has always had more to do with money and prestige than helping to promote sports and fitness, as the Public Relations types always claim.

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[kadnan]

I don't know why the international community isn't using the Olympics to put pressure on China regarding Tibet.

yeah olympics is the "legitimate" excuse to put pressure on China by US who itself is involved in killing of thousands of people. *Sarcasm*

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[XchristX]

The Chinese government is red-faced on this and it hasn't even begun to wreak its vengeance. It's already well under way. Chinese communist sympathizers have been engaging in a fair bit of historical revisionism and propaganda on the internet about these incidents. Check out the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Tibet) , for instance, where CCP communist shills in the diaspora have been edit-warring in gangs to make the Tibetans look like the bad guys (compare that ridiculous piece of biased rubbish there with less unreliable sources(http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=19922&article='Beijing+orchestrating+Tibet+riots').

It continues to amaze me that a free and proletarian medium like the internet can be abused by a sufficiently determined group like the Chinese CCP and their global network of apologists and propagandists to spread misinformation and whitewash their atrocities. It's sickening.

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[unlametheweak]

yeah Olympics is the "legitimate" excuse to put pressure on China by US who itself is involved in killing of thousands of people. *Sarcasm* The Olympics is an international organization, and not a US organization. The poster was specifically talking about athletes, and not the asshat governments and bureaucrats who have their own motives.

Yes the US government often is and can be an asshat in itself, but there is a level of difference between the US and China. I am glad to criticize the US, but I am also willing to have perspective.

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[tacocat]

I wonder if anyone outside of China will have enough balls to stand up and say, "Hey China, you're all a bunch of ass-hats" with sufficient clarity and force that they (China) is put in a position where red-faced or not, they have to account for their actions.

This is another fine example of a situation where the USA and UN will do absolutely nothing to affect improving human rights in a nation with complete disregard for human rights unless doing so has some advantage to those parties. We ignore Darfur because no one gives a crap about a bunch of sand and we ignore China because everyone is afraid they'll miss the big growing economy boat. So if I get this right, if I have a positive growth economy I can do anything I want to?

I guess now is a good time to play the Hitler card and finish this thread. If Hitler had a global economy in Germany with 10-15% growth he could have wiped out the Jews with impunity and we would almost celebrate his actions for fear of being minimized in Germanys economic growth schema. Yeah, it's an extremist viewpoint and I've pissed off every German and Jew on this list. But China is rationalizing the process of removing an entire religious culture from their country through forceful means and no one will call them out on it. And how is this different from Crystal Night in November 1938? But then no one called Hitler out on that one either.

I supposed I could be a little more modern and play the Saddam Card and mention the chemical warfare attacks on the Kurds, there's a shitload of oil in it for whomever holds the territory. But then we did manage to invade that country and declare all oil production to be managed by US interests.

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[1u3hr]

Check out the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Tibet) , for instance, where CCP communist shills in the diaspora have been edit-warring in gangs to make the Tibetans look like the bad guys

And I was disgusted to see the article "Tibet", supposedly about the history and culture of the regon, mostly devoted to a long rationalisation of why it is and always has been a part of China (excpet for when it was influenced by Evil Western Colonialists).

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[smoker2]

Utter crap. Your claim that somehow the USAs decision not to go to the Moscow Olympics caused the fall of the USSR is rubbish, and even your weak disclaimer negates your statement. Even more amusing is the reason for that boycott - the USSR had invaded Afghanistan. Who is embroiled in Afghanistan now (and Iraq) ? And even your reasons are the same as theirs - to quash rebel forces opposed to your domination of the area. The USSR boycotted the 1984 LA Olympics, for political reasons, did that have any effect on world peace ? Even the 1976 boycott by the African Nations did nothing to directly influence the South African apartheid regime.
The Olympics should not be about politics, and refusing to play nicely is what causes and prolongs arguments. By dealing with the Chinese, we get to understand them, and more importantly, they get to be exposed to, and start to understand and relate to us. These things take time, but by working together, I'm sure we'll find that as the Chinese govt. evolves (as it must due to death of current officials and leaders) the next generation will not be so hostile to the west, and even embrace more of our values. Once they are working on the same set of values then our arguments will make more sense to them.
Just telling them to fuck off and not engaging will just reinforce the separation of our cultures. And seeing as how the Chinese pretty much own your asses, financially speaking, you shouldn't be picking a fight you haven't got the capability to win.

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[unlametheweak]

I said:

The poster was specifically talking about athletes This was a mistake. My enthusiasm to post sometimes outweighs my diligence in checking the accuracy of what I post. My apologies. Otherwise my post should be taken as is.

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[microbox]

I wonder if anyone outside of China will have enough balls to stand up and say, "Hey China, you're all a bunch of ass-hats" with sufficient clarity and force that they (China) is put in a position where red-faced or not, they have to account for their actions.

As nice as that sounds, it is impossible. It is impossible to tell someone (a country) what you think of them and then get them to explain their actions. China will just say "this is an internal matter". We should call them uncivilized barbarians and put a "human-rights & environment" tariff on all imports. Problem is that it'd be too hard to enforce, and we're too greedy anyway.

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[cheekyboy]

And what did jailing said persons achieve?

Seriously, all these despots lame fwits commy pinkos are nothing more than derranged small dicked psychopath clinicly sick bipolar schizos that need meds.

Other than that, they are marginally smarter than discovery watching 5 year old.

3 Cheers with vodka for Stalins death btw.

And who ever said drugs are bad, drugs would have solved all the problems, coz everyone would be high and happy.

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[XchristX]

And I was disgusted to see the article "Tibet", supposedly about the history and culture of the regon, mostly devoted to a long rationalisation of why it is and always has been a part of China (excpet for when it was influenced by Evil Western Colonialists). Believe it or not that damn page has a google page rank of 7. Although a glance at the history page seems to indicate that some of the communist tripe has been toned down over the months, WTF??!??! I think that the Tibetan diaspora should start their own wiki-site (wikis get higher placement on google searches than regular websites) and counter such bullshit.

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[Yaa 101]

Remember, the US is up to it's neck into debt against China.

That is why you hear nothing from your leaders.

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[Gerzel]

"Really a difficult situation. Boycotts, just like strikes, are always unjust as they mostly hit the wrong guys. I do, however, hope that western athletes will use the olympics as a forum discussing this, e.g. publicly asking why there are no teams representing Tibet and Taiwan."

The response of any Chinese official, and possibly many Chinese people in general, would simply be that there is a team that represents them, the Chinese team.

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[Anonymous Coward]

"The China is still in the phase of jailing folks over what their kid said..."

Yes, and they use Macs and X360's

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[Anonymous Coward]

why is (http://www.phayul.com/) more unbiased or more reliable? Just because it is pro-Tibetan?

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[Curtman]

Even as ways of rationalising a lack of conscience for the sake of self-interest, it's got to be one of the worst I've ever heard.

You might remember some events in Germany's past that sound much worse than this one.

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[drsquare]

Fine, however the 2012 Olympics must also be boycotted for the British actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Northern Ireland, Argentina etc. All Olympics in America should be boycotted until they free the natives from European occupation, as well as withdrawing from Alaska, Iraq and Hawaii.

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[drinkypoo]

I don't know why the international community isn't using the Olympics to put pressure on China regarding Tibet.

Because the majority of people in power don't give one tenth of one fuck about a tibetan.

We dropped out of the 1980 Olympics in Moscow for the same reasons, and the Soviet Union fell in the next decade (not that they were directly related).

To suggest that our dropping out of the Olympics had anything to do with human rights is ignorant; to suggest that it had anything meaningful to do with the fall of the Soviet Union is either disingenuous or flatly stupid. It's a jingoistic footnote at best.

I know I won't watch the Olympics this year. Not One Bit.

The current "Olympic Games" are entirely financially motivated (by everyone but some of the athletes, anyway) and have about as much to do with the originals as Wicca has to do with the traditions upon which it was based; it looks more or less like the real thing, but it's actually a bunch of witchiepoo bullshit. The difference is that Wicca leads to people dancing around naked and that the Olympics lead to waste, gentrification, and a bunch of bullshit merchandising opportunities.

In fact, the Olympics are such a lie-fest that the contestants are not allowed to blog about their experiences without having posts vetted. Any beverage not provided by a sponsor must be wrapped in tape. Etc etc. The whole thing is one big bullshit-fest and you're an asshole if you watch it any year.

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[unlametheweak]

By dealing with the Chinese, we get to understand them, and more importantly, they get to be exposed to, and start to understand and relate to us. These things take time, but by working together, I'm sure we'll find that as the Chinese govt. evolves (as it must due to death of current officials and leaders) the next generation will not be so hostile to the west, and even embrace more of our values. Once they are working on the same set of values then our arguments will make more sense to them.
Just telling them to fuck off and not engaging will just reinforce the separation of our cultures. And seeing as how the Chinese pretty much own your asses, financially speaking, you shouldn't be picking a fight you haven't got the capability to win. Noble, and to an extent, you have a point. But the OLYMPICS is hardly a cultural ideal that can facilitate any reasonable type of cultural or political change. If that were the case the Chinese government would not have LOBBIED!! for the Olympics.

The asshats in power in China are quite aware of world opinion against them, and quite frankly they don't care. They know they have enough economic influence for countries like the US, etc. to only make symbolic gestures. Yes the business oriented asshats in the West will always be more concerned with economics than human rights. That's where China has the advantage: they have a HUGE population (both educated labour and cheap low cost labour), and the West realizes that China will exploit this to their advantage.

If pure Morality played a role in politics, then things may be different. Hey, when Rupert Murdoch said bad things about China; the Chinese government threatened to cut off it's satellite feeds. Since then, Rupert has been friendly towards the Chinese.

And yes I am a BIG fan of Capitalism, but I am against the "I will sell you a rope that will hang me" bullshit that most Capitalists will inevitably do.

Cultural exchanges ARE important, but right now the Chinese ARE exposed to Western culture. The Chinese government has been devious in the respect that they have allowed enough capitalism to create a comfortable middle class (that is, enough people to be comfortable with the current situation and not "rock the boat").

For China, unfortunately, I can only think that "terrorism" or a very unique and idealist type of over-throw at the top will change things.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It's very naive to think that the Chinese people aren't rabidly nationalistic as well. Most mainland Chinese folks do think that Tibet and Taiwan are part of China, whether that attitude is correct or not. There are plenty of Chinese hackers. You put two and two together.

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[unlametheweak]

I said:

For China, unfortunately, I can only think that "terrorism" or a very unique and idealist type of over-throw at the top will change things. I will add my own opinion here: if "terrorism" is used for the right purposes, then I am in favour of it: whether it be Tibetan monks killing Chinese police or Palestinians killing Israeli "civilians" (in Israel you are in the army pretty much for your adult life).

So yes, label me a Troll, but it is my morality that you are moderating, if you do moderate me as a Troll.

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[Anonymous Coward]

The language might be trollish, but the poster speaks the truth! Mod up!

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[unlametheweak]

if one were to call for a boycott on the grounds of China violating human rights, one should consider that there have been thousands of the usual executions and imprisonments since the games were awarded to China, and no one called for a boycott then. So, doing it now would put the human rights of the Tibetans above those of native Chinese... No, deciding that KILLING PEOPLE is not worth boycotting because nobody did this before is a very sorry and lame political excuse made by Politicians, Public Relations officials, Human Resource Management types, Sales people, and all the other ASSHOLES who think making a good argument is more important than admitting that KILLING PEOPLE is wrong.

Yes, you are interesting, but IMHO the moderators were too naive in up-modding you. I think you may be legitimate; but I think there may very well be a Chinese influence to your comment. I can't really know, but it always seems to be that with registered nicks, subtle criticisms always turn out to be Chinese Nationalism in disguise. Since you decided to post as AC, I cannot profile you. Too bad.

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[NeutronCowboy]

Here's the thing though: the Chinese place far more emphasis on hosting a smooth Olympics than any other nation before them. A near worldwide boycott of the Olympics over their actions in Tibet and at home is one of the few levers the world has left. The impact is unclear, but it would cause massive loss of face - and that's the closest thing to pressure that the Chinese government will respond to.

As for whether the rest of the world can win this fight - no, it can't. Does that mean that it shouldn't fight the good fight?

Lastly, China on average has a set of values that is very different from Western values. It might become less hostile, but make no mistake - there are certain things that will always be flashpoints. Taiwan will become part of China at some point in the future, whether by force or by political action. It will never be a western democracy, and unrest will always be quelled mercilessly. Conflict between the West and China will exist for far longer than any of us will care for.

Just like the West can't accomplish much with a boycott of the Olympics, so the West can't accomplish much by giving Beijing the Olympics.

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[NeutronCowboy]

Wikis are controlled by the most OCD group. And Chinese nationalists (they are certainly not communists, just like China really isn't a communist country anymore) can be exceedingly OCD. Not to mention focused on propaganda distribution. I'm not surprised that the edit wars are being won by them.

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[XchristX]

It is possible that the Communist Parties of India (marxist as well as maoist) are involved in these cyber-attacks. They're pretty much the worst variety of radical Communist thugs in South Asia right now, and they have been known to engage in pogroms against Tibetan monks/exiles in India at the behest of their Chinese paymasters.They have rigid editorial control over the Indian media, and routinely spew forth venom and propaganda that glorifies the Chinese CCP and demonizes Tibetans. They even tried to blacklist Tibetan expats in India during the early 90s. Plus, they have a large pool of brainwashed IT types whom they recruit from colleges in Calcutta using their youth wing, the Students Federation of India (basically a terrorist group in on itself that once got caught training suicide bombers in North Bengal in India). It is entirely within their means to pull of this type of cyber-attack if they can receive tactical support from their communist counterparts in the US like the fringe CPUSA.

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[carpe.cervisiam]

A spokesman said (and I'm forced to agree, though I don't quite like it) that if one were to call for a boycott on the grounds of China violating human rights, one should consider that there have been thousands of the usual executions and imprisonments since the games were awarded to China, and no one called for a boycott then. So, doing it now would put the human rights of the Tibetans above those of native Chinese...

I urge you to reconsider your position on this. If I fail to speak against one atrocity, does that absolve me of my moral obligation to speak out against other atrocities? There is no room for growth and becoming a better person in the type of sentiment expressed in the position of the spokesman you reference.

In my opinion the best thing to do would be to boycott the Olympics and cite the atrocities perpetrated on the Tibetan AND Chinese peoples by the Chinese government.

Re:govt-sponsored

[Prune]

Regarding your link: the story has been taken off the source page, at Canada Free Press, casting doubt upon its authenticity. And this is saying something, considering CFP is known as not a very credible source in the first place. It also had an article claiming that the Amero was a plot for the United States to repudiate its debts. But this article also claimed that the Euro came about because the Vatican minted a coin with the Pope facing the wrong way: http://canadafreepress.com/2006/cover121406.htm
Apparently, because the coin was the size of a Euro coin, it was a signal from the Illuminati or people like that through the Pope. For the GCHQ to reveal details of intercepted communications is unlikely except in extreme situations. For the PLA to pretend to beat soldiers dressed as monks, when it has plenty of real monks peacefully protesting that it can run over with a tank - which is what I remember reading in the mainstream media as triggering the violence - also seems odd. Looks like you're the one that has hit an unreliable source, and I request that moderators to decrease the score of your post for posting an obviously unreliable reference.

Re:govt-sponsored

[Anonymous Coward]

We dropped out of the 1980 Olympics in Moscow for the same reasons, and the Soviet Union fell in the next decade (not that they were directly related). No he didn't, perhaps this might be of some help to you.

I'm not feeding the trolls, I'm educating them :)

Re:govt-sponsored

[XchristX]

Regardless of what the source publishes regularly, the stated author in the article, Gordon Thomas, is an award-winning Welsh author who wrote books exposing CIA abuses that became very famous. Here is the review of a book by Thomas about Mossad http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2242/is_1606_275/ai_58055879.

Exposing this sort of propaganda is right up Thomas's alley.

Re:govt-sponsored

[Prune]

The dual of this is that it can be taken as evidence that he is a typical conspiracy theorist--albeit one with writing skill.

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[PopeRatzo]

The Olympics should not be about politics,

No, it should be about money as God intended.

Considering your signature is a link to a sporting good store (at which you are probably a stock boy), I can understand your concern about the Olympics, smoker2.

Now, go get your shinebox, you little wanker. It's been a long time since the Olympics were about sport and not politics. The last "pure" Olympics probably took place in Ancient Greece. And as far as China "owning" the US, your country used to "own" the US, too and we settled your hash back in the late 1700's when you were the big boy on the block. And if memory serves, we had to pull your bony arses out of a shitstorm back in the 1940's too, right?

Re:govt-sponsored

[PopeRatzo]

All Olympics in America should be boycotted

I'm inclined to agree.

Re:govt-sponsored

[PopeRatzo]

The difference is that Wicca leads to people dancing around naked

I always liked those Wiccans.

Re:govt-sponsored

[XchristX]

No it's not. If he was a conspiracy theorist then he wouldn't be peer-reviewed.

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[cyfer2000]

Tibetan Review is a good place for you to go.

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[kaosommadawn]

The one thing the Chinese government fears most of all is a boycott of these Olympics. Pressure them, there is still time for the free world to make their voices heard. But of course the games are no longer about sport, only commerce and trade, so they will go ahead as planned.

Re:govt-sponsored

[mrbluze]

But of course the games are no longer about sport, only commerce and trade, so they will go ahead as planned. And that's where the answer lies, in boycotting, wherever possible, goods from countries whose practices we disagree with.

Re:govt-sponsored

[Registered Coward v2]

I don't know why the international community isn't using the Olympics to put pressure on China regarding Tibet.

Money. No one wants to miss out on the Chinese market; and is unwilling to risk pissing off their leaders as a result.

They needn't be government sponsored...

[Digestromath]

They needn't be government sponsored merely idividuals and organizations who are ignored by the government as long as they stay on the "right" side of the law. Believe or not, extreme nationalists are willing to do the dirty work for free. It doesn't matter what country your in, you'll find some extreme patriots willing to go above and beyond to silence thier radical counterparts. Some governments do more to stop them, others do less... when it suits them.

Re:They needn't be government sponsored...

[clragon]

Believe or not, extreme nationalists are willing to do the dirty work for free.

Exactly, remember the cyberattacks on Estonia?

falung gong is chines

[xkillkillx]

Slightly off-topic : i doubt those crazy Falun-Gong followers qualify as an "anti-Chinese group". They're just a sect/spiritual_practice/younameit which has no such goal as "being anti-Chinese". The Chinese goverment does qualify as "anti falun gong" though.

Re:falung gong is chines

[Anonymous Coward]

They're just a sect/spiritual_practice/younameit which has no such goal as "being anti-Chinese". The Chinese goverment does qualify as "anti falun gong" though.

I've always seen the Falun Gong as the Chinese versions of Scientology. They both believe in UFOs and practice questionable business/brainwashing behavior but at the same time they don't deserve to be thrown into jail just because they believe in whacky things.

Re:falung gong is chines

[Dr. Cody]

Mod parent up!

The "my enemy's enemy is my friend" mentality in the Press concerning Falun Dafa has shamefully prevented the story of what Falun Gong actually is from being included in the story. Suppression aside, it has a lot in common which religious groups we in the West would not be so sympathetic, such as spiritual cures for diseases of the body, promises of magic powers, and a leader who claims his own divinity.

Powerpoint?

[LaskoVortex]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks as if you have to click a powerpoint attachment for this to work. So the attacker is posing as the clueless secretary or retarded bureaucrat of the organization?--Because those are the chronic ignoramuses who sends me that kind of .doc, .ppt, .xls crap. Maybe its about time one of our TLAs spread the word to democracy loving NGOs in oppressive regimes: don't click on any microsoft attachments, ever, period. If its that important, bounce the message and tell them to convert it to PDF, preferably with a snide little comment so they at least have unpleasant associations next time they do it.

Re:Powerpoint?

[LaskoVortex]

Oh crap--pdf exploits. That's messed up. Ok, new rule--tell them to convert to ascii.

Re:Powerpoint?

[mapkinase]

Print it and send it by snail-mail

Re:Powerpoint?

[rhakka]

anthrax.

use smoke signals.

Re:Powerpoint?

[cloakable]

Carbon dioxide.

Come and talk to me.

Re:Powerpoint?

[Ortega-Starfire]

Nerve gas. Use light signals and morse code. Oh crap, lasers!

Goatse

[Anonymous Coward]

Goatse.[goatse.ch]

You nerd faggots love it.

Also, Zeus sucks cock.

TROLL WARNING

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't click on parent's link. It's not Goatse, it's some random chat page.

Re:TROLL WARNING

[fr4nk]

Damn, and I was so eager to visit goatse. :(

Re:TROLL WARNING

[Anonymous Coward]

Hooray, someone's gone and invented the reverse troll. :)

Text only

[Alain Williams]

If you feel that you are vulnerable to this sort of thing - the solution is simple: text only email/attachments.

Text contains all the information that you want. It is sometimes nicer to make things look prettier, but give me sunstance over style all the time.

Re:Text only

[uassholes]

If they can't get a clue and switch to Linux then they get what they deserve. And where is this PDF/Adobe flaw actually; is XPDF affected as well? Text is good, but what's wrong with adopting the open source philosophy and sending the source: *.tex, or at least *.dvi. Last but not least, why did all the numbnuts of the world switch to PDF anyway? What was wrong with ps?

Re:Text only

[tepples]

Last but not least, why did all the numbnuts of the world switch to PDF anyway? What was wrong with ps? PostScript is a complete programming language, which as far as I know imposes much more overhead at render time than the simple formatting instructions of PDF.

Re:Text only

[Provocateur]

Me, too...suntans over style anytime!

Rage Against the Chinese?

[SlashWombat]

Several replies and no-one has really been on topic. Doesn't anybody care about the plight of the Tibetans?

I know Americans are all "gung ho" when it comes to invading countries that are important to it AKA Iraq, Vietnam ... but surely this has not diminished your sense of pity for others. (Or, perhaps it does, seems that it might explain many mysterious things.)

China forced its way into Tibet quit some time ago, and now seem to be systematically destroying the Tibetan culture. Yet the Chinese shit in the face of anything that might detract from their own cultural identity.

Aren't you guys ashamed? Or have all your high falutin morals gone down the drain!

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Anne Thwacks]

Dont any of you care about the Chinese?

A crime against the Dalai Lama is a crime against God, and God is known to be able to defend himself! The Chinese will soon (in spiritual terms) be facing the wrath of God. Generally considered and unpleasant end!

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Threni]

> I know Americans are all "gung ho" when it comes to invading countries that are important to it AKA Iraq, Vietnam ... but surely this has
> not diminished your sense of pity for others. (Or, perhaps it does, seems that it might explain many mysterious things.)

For all the American's nonsense about freedom and democracy, there's not a day when some news story or other plainly highlights the aroma of bullshit. Why are we dealing with China as if it's France or New Zealand? Why aren't the Olympics being boycotted at the highest level? We have to pretend to give a shit about sports like curling, and the worlds worst football matches (you won't find a single football fan in the UK who gives a shit about Olympic football) so China can make a few dollars from gullible tourists and politicians on an all-expenses paid trip abroad?

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[mgabrys_sf]

Probably because the plight is still under wraps. The information we've gotten to date has really been pretty sparse and it seems to be harder to openly support actions that even the Dali Lama has been outspoken against. I sympathize with the fact that the people reacting today are young and have been detached from the Lama for several DECADES and are living in the thick of it and are not expatriates in another area, but I'm not one to say - "yea - go for it - stick it to the man" - because fuck-all good it did in 1989.

It can be best summed up in the famous tank photo. That photo of a man standing in front of the tanks heading to Tiananmen Square has been oft-touted as a photo that "changed the world". But that's always been bullshit. It didn't change a damn thing and was a harbinger of what was about to happen which was total suppression and annihilation. When the tanks moved against their own people in Russia - THAT was a game-changer. In China - it's business as usual and whether you position yourself in front of tanks or type in blogs and forums - it's not going to change anything. Sorry - but it's not.

Now, it's fun to embarrass them on the world stage, and watch them lose face. Probably why I'm going to watch the protesters in San Francisco when that stupid torch comes through with more than a little glee. It's also fun to bait them online for being such idiots because they have been utterly removed from any and all historical data on their govt on the various forums they have been spamming recently. But I don't think for a minute that it's going to change dick.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Loucks]

I don't care about the "plight of the Tibetans." The Chinese are terrible rulers who slaughtered quite a few people. The Tibetan elite who preceeded them were also terrible rulers who slaughtered quite a few people. "Free Tibet" is a popular slogan among the college student and young democrat/progressive crowd, but the country wasn't really free before the Chinese occupation.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[CRCulver]

The Tibetan rulers may have been cruel, but they weren't trying to systematically wipe out the Tibetan language and culture. China, on the other hand, is moving in a huge amount of Han people to do precisely that.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[julienthjamminjabber]

In Korea, only old people still have morals.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Tomji]

China forced its way into Tibet quit some time ago... yeah 700 years ago. If only they were as effective as the english or other europeans in destroying culture and people.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[julienthjamminjabber]

In Korea, only old people care about the plight of the Tibetans. Young people are all pro ethnic Hui.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Dachannien]

I think we're just trying to avoid falling victim to one of the classic blunders, namely, getting involved in a land war in Asia.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[h4rm0ny]

I don't know enough about Tibetan history to say if you're right or wrong about past rulers of Tibet. But if you care about the Tibetan people today, you should be against the forces that threaten them today. It is useful to have the historical perspective in order to prevent a return to another bad system, but it doesn't alter the need to change the current one.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[another joe]

Wikileaks is doing it's part:
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Wikileaks_releases_over_120_censored_videos_and_photos_of_the_Tibet_uprising

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[GRW]

Buddhists don't believe in a god.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

forced its way into tibet? go back and read some history book, kid, and come back here to tell us your research results.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[smoker2]

Or indeed the plight of the Native Americans, and the Inuit, and the Mexicans, and the Cubans, and the Africans and the Koreans, and everybody else who the US have steamrollered in their quest for world domination. Pity is a naive emotion when dealing with world affairs. What can you do about the situation NOW ? Being sorry for someone doesn't help them one bit. It's better to do what you can, when you can, than to waste time moralising over something you can't influence when the people concerned most need that influence.
Of course people feel for the Tibetans, but unless you are threatening to nuke China unless they withdraw now and undo everything they have done (impossible), then you're wasting your breath by calling for pity.
I have more pity for the Palestinians whose plight is more influenced by the USAs policies then the USA would like to admit. They lost their lands by International agreement FFS, it's a pity that they weren't part of that agreement.
Do as we say and not as we do is never a good argument for enforcing change.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[deconvolution]

The Tibetan rulers may have been cruel, but they weren't trying to systematically wipe out the Tibetan language and culture.

FACT 1: Under their rules, there were only two schools for Lamas and other governors. More than 97% people could not either read nor write their own language. After 1959 revolution the secondary education virtually become compulsory for every tibet children and all the schools in Tibet are bilingual (plus English from the secondary school).

FACT 2: Yes, some parts of their "culture" have been systematically wiped, such as slavery, cruel torture, sexuality discrimination and much more (go to your library and check out more about this). If you think Chinese government should keep such "culture", you can suggest your government back to the medieval first.

Actually I dont think you should believe what I said here. I strongly suggest you travel to Tibet and use your own eyes to check. Also you can go to Dharmsala in India where Dalai lives and Nepal, which is another country now quite against the "culture". Despite considering the above factors, it is still worth to travel to Tibet as the landscape is simply amazing anyway.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[CRCulver]

Yes, some parts of their "culture" have been systematically wiped, such as slavery, cruel torture, sexuality discrimination and much more (go to your library and check out more about this). If you think Chinese government should keep such "culture", you can suggest your government back to the medieval first.

I was not defending all facets of Tibetan culture at the time of the occupation, but rather the mere right of the Tibetans to preserve their own conception of a culture distinct from that of neighbouring peoples.

All the schools in Tibet are bilingual (plus English from the secondary school).

Chinese claims of bilingual education are regularly criticized by linguists worldwide. Chinese schooling in practice pushes Putonghua on the local population to the detriment of their own language.

I strongly suggest you travel to Tibet and use your own eyes to check.

While I have not been to Tibet, I have traveled in Eastern Turkestan a.k.a. Xinjiang. It is obvious that the influx of Han people as it is currently managed is not compatible with the preservation of the indigenous language.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[BobDigiDigi]

I would be more ashamed of tha fact that independendists in the west, like from Basque country, North Ireland, Chechenia and Palestine are ALWAYS terrorists, but as soon as it's in China and they're cute monks it's a crime against humanity. THAT is hipocrisy.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know Americans are all "gung ho" when it comes to invading countries that are important to it AKA Iraq, Vietnam ... but surely this has not diminished your sense of pity for others.

Whilst the US Government might be apt to do this most US People are not.

China forced its way into Tibet quit some time ago, and now seem to be systematically destroying the Tibetan culture.

Which isn't that different from the way the US behaved in Hawaii... No doubt China has resources to expose the US as a hypocrit.

Aren't you guys ashamed? Or have all your high falutin morals gone down the drain!

The US lost any moral high ground a long time ago.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know Americans

Why focus on the US?

Aren't you guys ashamed? Or have all your high falutin morals gone down the drain!

Compared to who? The EU? France? Many members of the European Union have had strong trade agreements with China for decades. Where are your morals?

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Jeremy Erwin]

Style Tip: The eyes of many of your readers will glaze over when they see

FACT: insert unsubstantiated opinion here

Try showing that your "facts" are, in fact, "facts" rather than merely asserting that they are. And when you do, you won't need to resort to such ham handed propaganda techniques.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[mgabrys_sf]

I love the Hawaii argument because it screams "I don't know shit about history".

Lessie -the PRESIDENT OF THE US called for the reinstatement of the Queen, congressional inquiries that called the new govt illegal, apologies by congress etc. Here's the neat part - for every transgression in the US, we can - and have - freely protested it. Didn't always effect the outcome we wanted, (the remote interm govt in Hawaii ignored orders from the US govt to resign for instance) but we CAN protest. Chinese can do FUCK ALL. So do what your govt tells you to do and STFU.

Oh btw - Europe also took a not-insignificant role in Europe - but again Chinese dumbshits haven't known basic history since the cultural revolution. I'd pity them but they seem to enjoy celebrating their festival of ignorance.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[drsquare]

How is this any worse than America shipping over people to Hawaii to wipe out their local language culture?

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[revengance]

Strange. I would say that the Americans are systematically wiping the world culture too. Without US, there will be no Slashdot with full of kids who probably don't even where China is on the world map but claims to know all the evil things that the chinese leaders had done. Chinese people will still probably line-ing up to watch opera instead of watching movies. Instead of planning cyber attacks, the chinese kids will probably be practising kungfu in some remote temple. That's said, Americans are systematically wiping out Chinese culture, who is in term wiping out Tibetans culture, which meant that Americans are systematically wiping out Tibetans culture?

anyway, just to share one of Buddha's greatest teachings, which is basically to find out the truth for yourself rather than accept what other people said. Of course this is rather out of context in that it was meant to refer to the acceptance of religions, but that i guess the advice is relevant everywhere.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[superpulpsicle]

There is no doubt that west American cultures are wiping clean other cultures around the world with a mop. But we are not forcing it. People will go to hell's distance to pirate American movies. They like American goods, let them. I am sure we will accept opera one day when we have a less Anglo-mindset. That will catch on when the rest of the world slowly gets more east, while we realize we are behind, and are permanently stuck in west-only mode.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Slurgi]

I participated in a study abroad in South Korea, and people of many countries were there. I made good friends with one of the students from China and although there are several drinking photos of us together arm-in-arm smiling, we had a number of political conversations that were fairly aggressive. He was quite the nationalist, not that many of the people from my country (USA) are much better...

While in my room I brought up a picture of the Tiananmen sqaure tank man, and I asked him if he'd ever seen the photo. He responded with "of course", which didn't particularly surprise me. What did surprise me is that when we started discussing the events preceding and following that photo. He insisted to me that that same man in the photo later threw some sort of molotov cocktail down the hatch and killed the men inside. I didn't outright disagree with him at the moment (but I displayed my skepticism) because I didn't know for sure if that was true or not.

Well, unless my government played the lying game better than his (which in this particular instance, I doubt), that certainly did not transpire.

This was pretty mild compared to our conversations regarding the sovereignty of taiwan...

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

at least there's more than one million tietans. where is the native americans? the world of tibet before 1949 is the place closer to hell than any place in the world. if you have been there.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[mgabrys_sf]

I recall the video - in fact if you're not behind the great-firewall, you can You Tube it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nXT8lSnPQ&feature=related

There's several copies that may lack the edit around the turret scene (even with the edit - a Molotov would produce SOME fire and smoke), but I'm old enough to remember it as it was happening (basically the guy was shouting for a long time into the open turret). Aside from the fact that the man has both hands being used to climb the vehicle, which kind of makes chucking a firebomb tricky at best - it's warm and fuzzy to hear the lies from the PRC. Not surprising tho.

Ya the USA is far from perfect (really far with the current administration) but regardless of current and past blunders - there's one key difference. We can - and will - dissent. We can criticize, write, protest - you name it. Doesn't always change things - but it's a nice tool from time to time. I particularly like when the PRC raises US history as if they knew dick-all what they were talking about (Hawaii, the American Indians, the war with Mexico etc*). Was it neat and tidy? Hardly. Does it justify their actions? They'd sure love to think it does - and often tout these examples to support why they can make a pile of dead Tibetans - today.

(*Congressional investigation and orders from the White House to re-instate the Monarchy in Hawaii went ignored - Congressional mandates for an apology followed - not to mention the vote for statehood which of course they could have refused like Puerto Rico. The fact that the American Indians were at war with the US in several occasions but now manage 55 million acres of sovern land (you want to talk about indigenous folk getting screwed - NOW - let's talk Aborigine - they are still getting screwed in Australia right now). The fact that the Southwest was acquired after a mutually declared war with our neighbor to the south - and we didn't come out smelling like a rose from that war either (alamo?))

After our blunders we've had public retractions, apologies, changes in process, laws, and even museums dedicated to our past mistakes. I don't see the PRC doing this anytime soon. Does a museum correct past mistakes? Probably not - but I wasn't there at the time, and history is a messy business (If I was being hunted by plains Indians, I'm sure I'd feel differently about the whole mess). But at least we own up to our mistakes. I don't see the PRC doing anything of the kind - ever. Lest they lose face - which of course is easily worth a few thousand - or million - bodies. I still don't see Japan recognizing their role in the rape of Nanking either.

And this isn't some "asian" code of conduct. There's plenty of progressive ones like Singapore and Vietnam. And you want to talk about a country that should hate our American guts - it'd be Vietnam. Instead they've been outspoken in their overtures to us and cooperating with Vets. Vietnam's tact and overt courtesy has impressed even one of our front-runners for the Oval Office - even after serving 5.5 years in their prison camps! (he was one of the most outspoken proponents for the normalization of relations with Vietnam - this isn't an ad for him - but I used to live in Arizona so I might as well put any bias up front. I mostly like him because most far-right wing radio commentators hate him - which is good enough for me. Pity about the age thing tho).

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[riondluz]

I am not familiar w/the details, but my understanding of Bhuddism, is that when a dali lama dies, his re-incarnated self is revealed and then is supposed to be relocated to China proper.
Perhaps this harks back to a time when spreading the faith meant being around the most souls,
but since the communist revolution has taken on a sense of captivity.

I would like to hear the input of others more knowledgable on the matter (and please forgive my spelling errors)

Re:Rage Against the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bilingual education is indeed quite needed for the minority people. As the vast majority of Chinese speaks mandarin, people cannot speak mandarin well will be left behind in the economic boom. Part of the reason some Tibetan people join the riots and attack Han and muslims businessmen is that they are left behind in the economy. Not because the government gives Han and muslims advantages, rather because they lack the skills in business and language. Actually, Tibetans are given privileges in all aspects. Both Xinjiang and Tibet, are part of China, no matter you agree or not, therefore people are free to move in and out. For example, people from Xinjiang do business in every little town in inland China. They speak mandarin, the language of the majority(95%) as people here speak English to communicate with people. As for the local languages, you got to understand that Chinese dialects are pretty much the same language, be it Cantonese or Taiwanese. People must learn a common pronunciation to communicate throughout the country. My hometown is very far from Canton, but it is very easy for me to pick up cantonese. Actually, most local people still use dialects in their daily life.

They are terrorists!

[deconvolution]

Before 1949, 90% Tibetans were almost like slaves. Most of teenager girls were used for those monks for religious sex service. Please read this book for details. Chinese government made them freedom - e.g. repealed the contract to those masters and gave them lands.

On March 20, 1995 there was a poison gas attack in Tokyo's underground system that killed a number of people and injured around 5,500 further victims and shook the world public. It was a sect leader, Shoko Asahara, who gave the command. His teacher, is DALAI LAMA.

A few Tibetan rioters killed many innocent Chinese, even including other Tibetans. If I supported them, I would make myself a part of crime. I have several friends in Tibet. One thing is for sure: most of Chinese Tibetans, who actually have been living there, definitely dont want to go to Iraq for "freedom".

Re:They are terrorists!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi there,

Do you have sources for this 'information' ?

Completely unrelated : is your paycheck in Chinese currency ?

(Also, you sound like that guy that keeps sending me emails from Nigeria. Where are my 149.000.000.000 dollars ?)

Re:They are terrorists!

[deconvolution]

Hello, are you going to have sex with teenagers in the age of 12, 14 and 16? ALL senior Tibetan monks MUST DO THAT!

Please see this good references, written by two Germen.

http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/SDLE/Contents.htm

and their links

http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/links.htm

Also, please see the following two youtube videos how the western media lies!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas

There are some references list

Matthias HermannsMythen und Mysterien. Magie und Religion der Tibeter, Koeln 1956

Mary Craig:Kundun, a biogrphy of the family of the Dalai Lama, London 1997

Melvyn Goldstein, A history of modern Tibet 1913-1951. The Demise of the Lamaist state, Berkely, 1989

John Stevens Lust und Erleuchtung. Sexualitaet im Buddhismus,Bern, 1993

If you want more refs about Tibet history, please let me know...

Re:They are terrorists!

[1u3hr]

?Hello, are you going to have sex with teenagers in the age of 12, 14 and 16? ALL senior Tibetan monks MUST DO THAT!

Excellent parody!

Re:They are terrorists!

[Anonymous Coward]

'Deconvolution' seems to be our very own Chinese government propagandist, if his/her commenting history is anything to go by.

If sites like Slashdot have one, I wonder how many more main-stream sites are targeted in this way.

I don't know about anyone else, but the upcoming Olympics is leaving a bad taste in my mouth already.

(Anonymous through genuine fear, these guys are like Scientologists on angeldust)

Re:They are terrorists!

[microbox]

You are WRONG.

Buddhism is about non-violence. A core precept is not committing sexual misconduct. In Tibet - if you want to talk to a girl you have to ask the parents for marriage.

The Chinese people have committed such a heinous crime against these people. Mao's army committed massive acts of rape. THE CHINESE ARMY FORCED TEENAGE GIRLS INTO SEX SERVICE. Mao's army murdered, conquered, and burnt the Tibetan "savages".

Shame on you. Ignorance is not a source of happiness.

Believe what you will.

Re:They are terrorists!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese people have committed such a heinous crime against these people. Mao's army committed massive acts of rape. THE CHINESE ARMY FORCED TEENAGE GIRLS INTO SEX SERVICE. Mao's army murdered, conquered, and burnt the Tibetan "savages".

That is a very serious accusation, against the Chinese people no less, not the Chinese goverment, bigotry works both ways. Do you have any proofs? Something better other than "they are communists, communism is EVIL, therefore they must have done every EVIL things under the sun."

Re:They are terrorists!

[deconvolution]

Obviously you know NOTHING about Tibet history.

I am 100% sure, the Chinese army would not do that. To stop such stupid argument, you just need to know one fact (as a bottom line): the STD infection was terrible when the army came to the Tibet 1959 and the Tantra scripts probably didnt mention the receipts of penicillin.

Please read this FACT before you reply: http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Not all Tibetan exiles are enamoured of the old Shangri-La theocracy. Kim Lewis, who studied healing methods with a Buddhist monk in Berkeley, California, had occasion to talk at length with more than a dozen Tibetan women who lived in the monk's building. When she asked how they felt about returning to their homeland, the sentiment was unanimously negative. At first, Lewis assumed that their reluctance had to do with the Chinese occupation, but they quickly informed her otherwise. They said they were extremely grateful "not to have to marry 4 or 5 men, be pregnant almost all the time," or deal with sexually transmitted diseases contacted from a straying husband. The younger women "were delighted to be getting an education, wanted absolutely nothing to do with any religion, and wondered why Americans were so naive [about Tibet]."

Re:They are terrorists!

[microbox]

Have you ever met a native Tibetan? I have met many. The views of Kim Lewis are one data point. I'm sure there were plenty of Tibetan people who were disenfrancised.

I am 100% sure, the Chinese army would not do that.

Then you have rose tinted glasses about armies and war. The Dalai lama wrote to Mao saying basically: "How can the tibetan people accept rule as liberation when their homes are being burnt, and people are being raped and murdered." Mao wrote back (officially) and said that these crimes would subside, and it's all for the best of the Tibetan people.

Re:They are terrorists!

[Anonymous Coward]

(Anonymous through genuine fear, these guys are like Scientologists on angeldust)

Speaking of whom...

It's pretty amazing the stylistic similarities between political/religious trolls.

In the case of the Scilons, there's enough of a cultural gap between the Scilons and... well, everyone, that the Scilons stick out like sore thumbs wherever they troll. They have a few keywords and talking points that they tend to always come back to, and as the troll gets more and more agitiated, the odd bit of Scilon jargon or grammatical construction sneaks in. I can usually recognize a Scilon within a couple of paragraphs.

I don't know much about Chinese culture, nor about all the issues the PLA troll was citing, nor about the issues he was harping about, but it was clear from his text that those issues were important to him. So important that they overrode considerations of fact. How the hell I knew that is beyond me, which is the interesting part of the problem. I wasn't alone in seeing him for what he was. Somehow, most of us who spend a lot of time on message boards get really good at recognize doublethink/blackwhite when we see it.

I'd like to quantify and automate that process.

In the case of Pubs and Dems, they share a mostly-common culture, and all the debate takes place on US/English message boards, so you have to look for party-specific jargon. (Pubs tend to say "Democrat party" vs "Democratic party", for example, and Dems tend to overestimate the importance of Milt Friedman because one of their favorite authors said so. A "neutral" commentator who blames Friedman for the ills of the world, or who speaks of the Democrat party, outs themselves.) That makes it a hard proposition, so let's skip them for now.

But in the case of PLA trolls in English message boards and Tibet threads, the grammar is the dead giveaway. It's similar to the occasional appearance of a Putinist or Nashi troll on a English-speaking message board. It's interesting and worthwhile to read what the other side sees... but it's pretty clear what's going on.

The Serious Question: I only speak English, so that sort of thing sticks out pretty easily to me. Any of you Chinese speakers (or Russkies?) have the same sort of problem with our trolls trying to pass themselves off as neutral in your forums, and are we just as obvious? And for the Chinese, can you usually tell from grammatical/style cues that an author is/isn't Han?

I'd love to quantify how I make those assessments in my head. I'd love to automate it so that I could write a browser plugin called "Know Your Audience" that would display a pop-up warning such as "OP has political affiliation XYZ and is a native speaker of ABC. Your reply uses buzzwords and cultural references that likely indicating to him that you're from political affiliation FOO and a native speaker of BAR. Use different grammatical and conventions to be more convincing."

Anyone at Google who feels the same... there's a great idea for your copious free time, because the other folks working on that problem ain't releasing their solutions to the public in the forseeable future :)

Re:They are terrorists!

[geekboy642]

A brief google search is by no means comprehensive research, but I find it highly telling that the only other references to the above poster's cited works appear on sites such as gnosticliberationfront.com, nineoneone.nl, mothershiplanding.blogspot.com, and several anti-semetic pages. Not that I wish to claim untruthfulness on the part of the authors of the works, but perhaps the facts are not exactly as laid out in the books.

Another point of interest is, these references are completely off-topic. The discussion centers around PLA attacks against Tibetans. It is implicitly clear that the PRC is soft-gloving their response (ref Tianamen), and yet the international community still finds the reprisals against the protesters extreme. With the cyber attacks and the continuous waves of internet blocks put into the great firewall, it's also clear that China is attempting to keep this quiet. People whose websites are DDoSed out of existence can't post information damaging to the ruling party. Actions of historical Tibetans found unacceptable by the modern world are completely non-germane to the topic.

Why, again, did the world choose a despotic regime to host the Olympics?

Re:They are terrorists!

[NeutronCowboy]

I am 100% sure, the Chinese army would not do that.

You mean, the same Chinese army that shot and killed unarmed and peaceful demonstrators in 1989? You're either a government shill, or a nationalist of the worst sort. What frightens me the most about China these days isn't the Communist party - it's nationalists of your ilk who put China first, Chinese people second and all others third.

I also like how everything that paints Tibet in a bad light is FACT, while everything that paints China in a bad light is WRONG, without proper historical context, irrelevant or justified to counter nefarious external influences or actions.

Re:They are terrorists!

[geekboy642]

That's very, very interesting. I'm a non-native (partially-)fluent speaker of Chinese, and I was merely able to discern from writing patterns that the poster was a non-native speaker of english. I think what marked him as being sincere is the copious list of resources. People who aren't sincere in their beliefs have a tendency to just talk around a lack of supporting evidence, while those who are sincere have a tendency to have spent hours digging up any evidence that supports their position.

Re:They are terrorists!

[unlametheweak]

You're either a government shill, or a nationalist of the worst sort. Since there is not an "agree" button, I will state emphatically that I agree with you. When Chinese issues come up, I always see the obvious and not so obvious Shills come out of the wood work.

Re:They are terrorists!

[Anonymous Coward]

You base your opinion on a quote based on very small (less than 20) and biased (all ex-patriots) sample that amounts to noise...or a sound bite...or, deliberate, misinformation.

Which is it?

Re:They are terrorists!

[XchristX]

Please read this FACT before you reply: http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html Facts? Total bullshit. Michael Parenti is a pro-Communist nut (http://www.michaelparenti.org/contrarynotions.html) and communist (particularly CPUSA sympathisers) routinely lie and fudge facts to advance their agenda. See, for instance, the CPUSA's attempt to institutionally Deny that the Ukranian Holodomor ever happened. Read George Orwell, "Notes on Nationalism" in "The Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters of George Orwell" and (http://web.archive.org/web/20061113151526/http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/028822.shtml, http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/duranty42.htm)

Re:They are terrorists!

[jzhos]

I am tied of these BS. You'd better read more before "shame on" others. http://thetruthoftibet.blogspot.com/ http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/10/dalai-lama-hero-in-western-world.html I am not saying old Tibet was all bad. And myself is a supporter of Buddhism. Personally, I am very respectful to Dalai Lama as a religion leader. But come on, history is history. At that old time it was closer to hell for most of the population then heaven.

Re:They are terrorists!

[aeschenkarnos]

Buddhism is about non-violence.

Fair enough.

A core precept is not committing sexual misconduct.

What's "misconduct"?

In Tibet - if you want to talk to a girl you have to ask the parents for marriage.

Or what? Or there will be violence, is my guess. That ludicrous proposition itself constitutes sexual misconduct by the culture generally, and by the specific people who enforce it, in that the girl here is denied any free right of sexual expression. It sexually enslaves her. Obviously not as violently as the Chinese army; but at the core of it, the intention is the same: you get to decide how she will express her sexuality.

It also constitutes a breach of free right of association amounting to violence, in that she is denied simple personal interaction with other people merely on the basis of her, and their, gender. It is an absurd and disgusting idea, and you should be, yourself, ashamed for suggesting it.

Re:They are terrorists!

[microbox]

What's "misconduct"?

Misconduct is obvious. It means that if are going to have sexual relations with someone, that you are true to them. It also means that you do not cause harm to others by interfering in their relationships. You also to not cause harm to others with inappropriate behaviour in the workplace and elsewhere.

Or what? Or there will be violence, is my guess.

There are other ways to solve problems than violence. Where I live, people talk to each other. There is also significant trust in the legal system. Look to Newfoundland in Canada, which has the lowest death rate of pretty much any nation.

Obviously not as violently as the Chinese army; but at the core of it, the intention is the same: you get to decide how she will express her sexuality.

By western standards, it is obviously unfair for a father and mother to dictate the sexual activities of their sons and daughters until they are married. Nonetheless, if a young women wants to leave her culture she won't be locked up as is common in some cultures. I know a traditional tibetan lady who recently got married and first moved to the west just a few years ago. She has lived a very different life to western women, and is also very kind.

Re:They are terrorists!

[mldqj]

Mao's army committed massive acts of rape. THE CHINESE ARMY FORCED TEENAGE GIRLS INTO SEX SERVICE.

Any source for your claim? Typing in caps doesn't help.

Re:They are terrorists!

[aeschenkarnos]

It means that if are going to have sexual relations with someone, that you are true to them.

In what sense "true"? Tell the truth to them? Sure, that's clearly good. If you mean, not be in a sexual relationship with more than one person at a time, I'm inclined to agree *for myself* but so long as all are fully informed I don't see it being anyone else's business. However if you mean that a person should only ever have sex with one other person, life-long ... that's your choice to make, but (a) I don't respect it much, as it makes a virtue of cowardice; (b) you don't get to make that choice for anyone else.

It also means that you do not cause harm to others by interfering in their relationships.

Up to a point, sure. Where exactly that point is, is a matter of opinion. I'll damn well interfere in a relationship that I have good grounds to consider abusive. I also don't see a problem with reminding someone who's going out with a jerk, that other options do exist.

You also to not cause harm to others with inappropriate behaviour in the workplace and elsewhere.

Agreed.

There are other ways to solve problems than violence. Where I live, people talk to each other. There is also significant trust in the legal system. Look to Newfoundland in Canada, which has the lowest death rate of pretty much any nation.

A legal system that forbids women from talking to me, or me to them, isn't worth much trust.

By western standards, it is obviously unfair for a father and mother to dictate the sexual activities of their sons and daughters until they are married.

No, it's just obviously unfair, regardless of one's cultural standards.

Nonetheless, if a young women wants to leave her culture

That it's that much of an issue is wrong too. Having sex with someone isn't the sort of decision that one ought to have to contemplate abandoning one's entire family and everyone one knows, to do it. she won't be locked up as is common in some cultures.

Good, but you don't get to congratulate yourselves for not being worse. I know a traditional tibetan lady who recently got married and first moved to the west just a few years ago. She has lived a very different life to western women, and is also very kind.

Hooray for the singular anecdote.

Re:They are terrorists!

[dangitman]

A core precept is not committing sexual misconduct. In Tibet - if you want to talk to a girl you have to ask the parents for marriage.

How in the world does that prevent sexual misconduct? Hell, plenty of parents sexually abuse their own children, or are happy to see them in abusive relationships if the "partner" is wealthy enough. Isn't it abusive in itself to prevent free association if the parents don't approve?

Re:They are terrorists!

[dangitman]

It also means that you do not cause harm to others by interfering in their relationships.

So, wouldn't you agree that the parents interfering in their children's relationships constitutes harm? So, aren't the parents guilty of sexual misconduct here?

Re:They are terrorists!

[Enlightenment]

Man, I could tell that and I don't even speak Chinese. All you have to have is a basic familiarity with how exactly speakers of various languages tend to violate conventions of the English language. You just have to hear people speak (or see them write) bad English while knowing or inferring their native language.

One thing that I was consciously aware of was how they said "Look at ": "Let's look at...", "We'll show how...", "Let's see the true face of western media". Such mistakes are hard to fix, because they're not technically wrong--just context-inappropriate.

Re:They are terrorists!

[Enlightenment]

Crap, should've previewed. I was referring to their use of "we" and "us" instead of "you." Dead giveaway. And if they fix that, there will be other signs. Even their attitudes give them away.

Re:They are terrorists!

[cyfer2000]

Looks you really know a lot, then would you please explain the following concepts to me?

• Kumari
• Salika
• Siddha
• Balika
• Bhadrakapalini

Re:They are terrorists!

[microbox]

Most of the evidence from the 60s and 70s comes from eye-witness accounts, as well as letters. Mao himself did not deny that atrocities were being committed, and said that it was for the good of the Tibetan people. They were being purged and transformed into communists. This is how he did it:

Monks and nuns were forcibly married and/or raped. Many monks were imprisoned; some were castrated and killed; a few abbots were killed by having their ears drilled with a brace and bit and molten lead poured into their brains, or by having their eyes scooped out with spoons and their brains scooped out through the eye sockets. Popular piety was suppressed. Pilgrimage, prostration, prayer flags on one's house, or speaking "OM Mani Padme Hum" -- all brought death. Perhaps a million tibetans, out of six million, were killed or exiled. Tens of thousands of widows were rape-married to Chinese soldiers.

If you really are interested in learning about what Chinese censorship is covering up, then I can recommend a book by a chinese woman called "Wild Swans". This book is not about Tibet, but rather about life for a Han Chinese woman. Chinese government atrocities are not limited to Tibet - they are widespread and ongoing.

Perhaps you think I've had my thinking adjusted by anti-communist propaganda? It's just that the Chinese are the ones who practice widespread censorship and historical revisionism. We do not have thought police where I live. I can think and say what I want about my government - and the government must account for its actions at election time. Chinese people who live here recognize that. Those that I've spoken to do not want to go back to China, precisely because of thought police.

Here's a link to a video of Chinese soldiers murdering Tibetans fleeing the regime. If China was doing the Tibetans such a grand favour, then why do soldiers have to kill people to encourage them not to flee their own homes?

Re:They are terrorists!

[adah]

The Dalai lama wrote to Mao saying basically: "How can the tibetan people accept rule as liberation when their homes are being burnt, and people are being raped and murdered." Mao wrote back (officially) and said that these crimes would subside, and it's all for the best of the Tibetan people.

[citation needed]

Re:They are terrorists!

[adah]

I am 100% sure, the Chinese army would not do that.

You mean, the same Chinese army that shot and killed unarmed and peaceful demonstrators in 1989?

Each army shoots, but not each army rapes. Some even mentioned that one Chinese army in fact refused orders in 1989, and the government had to manoeuvre another one to Beijing.

We also know that Americans soldiers raped Japanese girls several times. Does that prove the American army is the worst in the world? Unless people can show evidence there was a large-scale rape in Tibet in the 1950s, I am not convinced that proves anything.

Re:They are terrorists!

[microbox]

A siddha is someone who recognizes the illusion of believing in ones own thoughts. For example - you seem to believe in something right? Perhaps you think you're correct on some point? A siddha recognizes such things as an illusion. Believing you're correct about something is revealed by a subtle pervasive discomfort that something isn't quite right.

In tantric buddhism, there is a lot of talk about wisdom energies. These are based on deep drives that can be (I believe) traced back to the reptilian brain (see evolutionary psychology). There are two aspects to these energies - the male and female. The division is made, perhaps, because of subconscious obsessions with sex-roles that are imprinted on us when we are infants. Regardless of the origins of such a practice, the male is associated with action, and the female is associated with the wisdom that directs that action. Taken together, the male and female aspects are often shown in wrathful form and in sexual union with each other. The female is called the "consort" of the male. This points to a male orientation in the Tibetan culture.

Tantric buddhists practice visualizing various imaginary deities, to connect themselves with the deepest levels of their own consciousness. They imagine the confused and wise aspects of, for example, anger.

Youth has a role to play in these imaginations, simply because human beings associate youth with playfulness and purity. For example, a common practice is to visualize oneself as an eight-year old boy, who is perfectly pure and wise.

These practices are visualizations. I'm sure some crazy monk somewhere has something horrible because of their own neurosis - but one bad egg doesn't make every egg in the world bad.

It is an absurd misrepresentation to look at paintings that represent the inner workings of ones own mind, and then accuse people of doing something in the outer world. Tibetan monks and nuns are chaste unless they are married. If they are married, then they monogamous. Sure some people break societal rules like that - but they do so at the risk of being ostracized by society.

Re:They are terrorists!

[shutdown -p now]

Buddhism is about non-violence.

Wrong. Buddhism can promote violence just as well as any other self-declared "religion of peace".

Also, the GP is spot on that the original Tibet that the Chinese had invaded was a stagnant feudal society with serfs tied to land and having no rights, and a ruling hereditary elite of Buddhist spiritual leaders. Not that China itself was any better under Mao, though... But people wishing for restoration of Tibet independence in its original form should really understand what it is they campaign for.

Re:They are terrorists!

[Anonymous Coward]

It is interesting to see such false lies can be labeled as informative here. It is really easy to bash a communist government in the west even with the cheapest lies. The army of China, though ruined its fame in the 1989 events, had a pretty good fame with its relation to the people of all nationalities all over China, including Tibet. That's why even when thousands of troops poured into Beijing in 1989, naive students on the square still believed the PLA will never harm them a little bit. In China, soldiers of the army are even not allowed to find girl friend or wife in their station region, and sex crime is treated with death penalty. Chinese government has done a lot of evil things because of its communist ideology, but blaming genocide and raping on the Communist Party is quite a stretch. A typical lie is "one million Tibetan" killed by China government around the 60s, which, if true, would pretty much wipe out the whole population in Tibet... Whereas, the reality is the population more than doubled in these years, and one-child policy only apply to Han Chinese. Tibetan in exile understandably made these false claims both because they are desperate to get attention from the west media and their hatred to the CCP. On the other hand, the people in the west who have always been fed with news of evil communists are really happy to accept these "facts" to reinforce the impression of evil China. Yes, you can tell I am from China. I have been a graduate student in the US for several years and can access all the information you can get. I have been labeled as "brainwashed" all the way when I say something like these in the US. Anyway, just for your information, the world is not black and white.

Mainstream coverage of the attacks

[Anonymous Bullard]

The Washington Post (article reprinted) has a more mainstream-orinted story on these attacks.

It should be emphasized that the exiled Tibetan groups based in India are extremely vulnerable to China's attacks and snooping since they often operate on aging hardware running obsolete and unpatched Windows software, partly out of necessity since some Tibetan-language word-processing tools that they're familiar with only run on obsolete MS platforms and partly because they're only now beginning to realize that Linux can also be made to work for them both on the servers and desktops. In fact the government in neighboring Bhutan has already created a comprehensive Dzongkha (a Tibetan-like language using the same script) version of Linux.

Equally huge problem is that most Tibetans in exile will naturally try to communicate with their family and friends back in the Chinese-occupied Tibet, but they don't realize that their unencrypted emails, "yahoo chats" and mobile text messages are all being monitored and logged by the Chinese authorities. Even if they don't exchange any sensitive information, simply receiving messages from outside China's control makes any Tibetan a suspect. Actually just being a Tibetan makes one a suspect under the eyes of the Chinese colonial masters...

Re:Mainstream coverage of the attacks

[asuffield]

I don't think the Chinese government thinks of Tibetans as automatic suspects, exactly. If there is anything that this whole affair reminds me of, it is the systematic extermination of the native Americans by the colonists. Han Chinese colonists move in and are supported by their government; natives can abandon their own culture and integrate into the Han nation (where they will be more or less accepted in time), or they can be shoved to one side and left to die out. Natives who oppose this get armies sent after them; those who don't oppose it get ignored. It's all stuff that we've seen before in history classes.

The Chinese government has been doing this to Tibet for a period of centuries now (with varying degrees of enthusiasm depending on what else was going on at the time), and their reaction to people who say that Tibet is an independent nation is very similar to the reactions of US colonists to people who said the same things about the natives there (it basically amounts to "We're taking it, so this land is ours, and all those squatters can just go die in a hole"). The colonists do of course blame the natives for clinging to their culture instead of adopting the new, obviously superior one that is taking over.

Re:Mainstream coverage of the attacks

[Anonymous Bullard]

Interesting that you should bring up the comparison to the European colonists and native Americans. A couple of years back the Tibetan rights activists got hold of a Chinese Communist Party (Department of Propaganda) manual for their frontline workers involved in arguing the CCP's side online and in the western media. This Guilt Trip argument that the Western colonial powers had done similar things in their history was top of the list. However for some reason they completely refrain mentioning the last dictatorships that engaged in such genocidal expansionism: Stalin (who Mao got his ideas from) and Hitler.

Also, the "West" (i.e. the western countries that engaged in colonialism; most did not and many were victims of their neighbours in Europe, too) has long ago seen the criminality of the old ways and has since sought to undo past damages. The fact that some colonial powers wiped out indigenous cultures, just like China has been doing to its past near-neighbours for centuries and millenia (check sometimes where the Han-chinese actually originate from), but later saw the error of their own ways should in fact give them some authority to speak from experience. If my great-great-great-.....great-grandparents were sent overseas by their unelected masters to do what we now know to be crimes against humanity, should I not be able to condemn those acts??

Do you think it is reasonable or even understandable for China to be committing such genocidal colonialism today (since the 1950 invasion), all the while keeping their own population in complete darkness over what really is happening and what the Tibetans really want in their own country?

And therein lies another massive difference between the tribal native cultures of the "new continents" and the Tibetans. The Tibetans were not only China's historical neighbours, with wars and peace treaties of their own (including an eternal peace treaty with the Chinese after the Tibetans had invaded the capital of China in the first century B.C.), their own army, central government, currency, postal system etc. The Chinese claims over Tibet are all the more ridiculous when they start referring to the Yuan dynasty... Those were the Mongol descendants of Genghis Khan who had invaded China too, and who agreed to a priest-patron relationship (without de facto control over governance) as protectors of Tibet after converting from Islam to Buddhism!

When the Mongol empire broke up, the remaining Chinese quarter continued the Buddhist relationship with Tibet (i.e. the "primitive" Tibet was trusted to provide spiritual services to the Chinese courts for centuries...), but nominally claimed Tibet as part of the known Chinese empire (just like they did with all their other neighbours), still without de facto rule over its affairs. And somehow that spiritual relationship was carried into the 20th century by the newly-crowned communist emperor "religion is poison" Mao whose first task after coronation was to send his communist army to invade (the CCP term is "peaceful liberation") Tibet for real.

Who told you that "the Chinese government has been doing this (genocidal subjugation) to Tibet for a period of centuries now"??

But nice going, the Guilt Trip argument again succeeded in deflecting some of the spotlight off the current and ongoing crimes by the Chinese regime against the Tibetan nation.

Now go and watch a documentary about the Tibetans living and dying under the Chinese occupation today, not in the 15th or 18th century when people still had no say in their own affairs anywhere. The events in that documentary, which includes footage and interviews from the last major uprising in Lhasa and its aftermath twenty years ago, resembles eerily the current crackdown being executed by the Chinese military and paramilitary since last week.

Re:Mainstream coverage of the attacks

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up insightfull.

Out of modpoints.

Re:Mainstream coverage of the attacks

[ANCOVA]

Blah blah blah, it's all good and noble. But did the Chinese wipe out the entire native population of a continent and then express their gratitudes every winter by slaughtering millions of big birds?

Re:Mainstream coverage of the attacks

[Anonymous Coward]

I know RTFA isn't in vogue, but did you even read the comment that you're replying to?

Re:Mainstream coverage of the attacks

[pikakilla]

First, it is very important to note that Tibet's current situation is completely due to the absolute incompetence of its leadership.

Your argument "Chinese oppressing the Tibet people for centuries" is invalid because the Chinese had a very minimal presence during the Qing and damn near none during the Ming. In fact, it has historically been when Tibet thought that it could overthrow the Chinese powers that the Chinese sent its armies in (see the Qing/Early CCP).

One point that must be said is that the Tibetans had a golden opportunity to modernize their country and make this entire issue moot during the chaotic period following the fall of the Qing Dynasty; however, being a religious monarchy (yes, the leader of Tibet is chosen by a group of people as a "reincarnation of the Dalai Lama"), the staunch Buddhist supporters decided that to modernize the country would interfere with its traditional Buddhist practices thus killing any hope of defending their sovereignty.

Furthermore, even Mao Zedong recognized the extreme cultural differences between Tibet and China and OFFERED them exactly what the Dalai Lama is requesting today after he "liberated Tibet." Hell, he even would not have enacted land reform or collectivization in Tibet! However, once again, Tibet thought that through rebellion that it could achieve sovereignty and dashed any hopes of a progressive introduction into China.

I wholly recommend reading The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama for a very good view on Chinese Imperialism in Tibet throughout the dynasties.

Now who would do that......

[Anonymous Coward]

Cyber Command!!! I knew it, they have started operation World Domination!

I for one welcome our new Cyber overlords.

This has been happening a while.

[Lord Haw Haw]

Yahoo has been reporting stories for some time that demonstrate this isn't new.

Re:Rage Against the Chinese? - Why ?

[chawly]

Or have all your high falutin morals gone down the drain!

Could you remind me ? Which morals were those ? This is slashdot remember (you must be new here, I think) ! On slashdot there are no morals. You have to check guns, knives and MORALS at the door.

But you're right, Americans are "gung ho" - "gung Ho Chi Min".

Notice also that the word "shame" is unknown here - could you please include a link which will explain it ? Thanks.

More Attacks!! Invested Interests...

[FriendlyLurker]

We have been getting an increasing number of sophisticated and targeted cyber attacks against all our servers, dating back to 2002 and earlier as well, including email content specific to our business to slip in under the radar. Its NORMAL - attacks evolve, defenses evolve. Statistically show us how these particular communities are getting something unusual Vs every other visible server/community hooked up to the internet and you *might* have a story. If not, then this just reeks of more drum beating propaganda - building a case and justify upcoming anti-anonymity, anti hack tools, and all other manner of nasty anti-internet laws you can think of... to protect us of course.

And if your going to reply about how bad China is and Tibet's suffering - don't bother you have missed the point... its not about Tibet/China.

Re:More Attacks!! Invested Interests...

[Igarden2]

Actually, I think the point is China.
Let's see, 1.3 billion Chinese are under one government. That is about 1/5 of the world's population. Now how many of you want to see a nice bloody civil war in China? Anybody? Show of hands, please. Anybody? Given enough 'freedom', I'm sure disgruntled groups could manage to incite just such a war.
Let's not forget their efforts to control their population's numbers. Who wants to see another billion hungry Chinese in 10 years or so? If their population gets out of control, where's all the food and resources going to come from? That's right, your market.
Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

Re:More Attacks!! Invested Interests...

[Culture20]

I like to play devil's advocate so I'll bite:

Now how many of you want to see a nice bloody civil war in China? Anybody? Show of hands, please. Anybody? Given enough 'freedom', I'm sure disgruntled groups could manage to incite just such a war.
So munitions makers could have a huge market? Some ultra-greens might like it too; reduce the human population.

Let's not forget their efforts to control their population's numbers. Who wants to see another billion hungry Chinese in 10 years or so? If their population gets out of control, where's all the food and resources going to come from? That's right, your market. Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.
My market? Awesome. More profits for me.

Re:More Attacks!! Invested Interests...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that's good news for those of us from countries that are net exporters of food. We won't go hungry, while making a killing from selling surplus to China.

Win Win, as the Chinese like to say!

Re:More Attacks!! Invested Interests...

[carpe.cervisiam]

So munitions makers could have a huge market? Some ultra-greens might like it too; reduce the human population. A civil war in China scares the living shit out of me for the same reason that a civil war in the former USSR would have scared the living shit out of me.

Nuclear Fucking Weapons.

Each nation needs self-governence

[Anonymous Coward]

Support pan-nationalism. Only ethno-culturally unified and independent nations are free from oppression and persecution.

How Tibetans could solve their problem

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Find oil.

2. Spotting Osama Bin Laden in Lhasa.

3. Appeal to democratic nations about the invasion of sovereign territory by a foreign power (just kidding, who'd want to go to war for that kind of thing).

Yeah yeah, China thinks all it's neighboor are part of its territory, that doesn't make it true.

Falun Gong Is Chinese

[Doc Ruby]

anti-chinese groups like Falun Gong.

Falun Gong is Chinese. That sentence should say "Chinese rebel groups like Falun Gong".

"anti-chinese groups like Falun Gong."

[1u3hr]

WTF with: "anti-chinese groups like Falun Gong"??

Most Falun Gong ARE Chinese. The government does not like them, fearing an organised group, though religious, could turn political, but to identify this as "anti-Chinese" is really nonsensical. (Americans might like to compare with the "Why do you hate America?" jibes made to demonise political opponents.)

Re:"anti-chinese groups like Falun Gong."

[Anonymous Coward]

You can ask every single Chinese who are not Falun Gong about this group, you will get the same answer, "yes, they are anti-chinese". This is even more true if you happen to ask a Chinese in the US. Why do ordinary Chinese dislike Falun Gong so much? Because they are so eager to bash the government of China that they always make up ridiculous and baseless lies about China which really sickens ordinary Chinese. Most their lies are in published in Chinese. If you happen to read in Chinese, you will understand why.

Re:"anti-chinese groups like Falun Gong."

[1u3hr]

You can ask every single Chinese who are not Falun Gong about this group, you will get the same answer, "yes, they are anti-chinese".

Since most Falun Gongers ARE Chinese, this is an absurd statement to make. Falun Gongers do protest about the Chinese government's persecution, that does not make them "anti-Chinese".

I live in Hong Kong, and Falun Gong are free to practise their religion here. And most Hongkongers (Chinese) think the Falun Gong are basically harmless, though a bit crazy.

Sophistry

[microbox]

You do know what sophistry is don't you?

Perhaps you should talk to a bona-fide tantric buddhist practitioner before you paint them all with one brush, based on some bizarre cooks collection of papers.

Those very same tantric buddhists, from the very highest levels, have been saying: "Don't let recent events in Tibet let anger increase in the mind through discussion or action." Obviously very dangerous people, right?

Re:Sophistry

[deconvolution]

I do know what's sophistry, so I dont use it here. I use the FACT, the fact not from someone's mouth, but the fact everyone can check. Go to the Tibet and do literature review as much as you can. I strongly suggest you do that!!!

Perhaps you should talk to a bona-fide tantric buddhist practitioner before you paint them all with one brush, based on some bizarre cooks collection of papers.

NO! you can read their raw official "scripts" and "guides" directly and examine what I post here one-by-one (highly recommended)!!! The information is there! I use the above links just because it is well organized and written by English. The basic idea of Tantra Buddhism is quite straight forward and clear, but absolutely not "BONA-FIDE". I dont want to give the details here, it is disgusting.

Basically there are three major topics in their "scripts" 1) how to have sex with girls (the first one usually must be a virgin) whilst not feeling any exciting. This is one of the core components of Tantra, although they have full religious explanations about this but may be difficult to understand to you guys. 2) how to call an evil (yes, an evil by any means even by their definition) to kill the enemy. 3) how to use a witch to connect a spirit (sometimes an evil, sometimes others depends on the witch) to make a decision, for example, Palden Lhamo, Dalai Lama's demon and Dorje Shugden, a spirit who Dalai hates very much

Re:Sophistry

[Anonymous Coward]

2) how to call an evil (yes, an evil by any means even by their definition) to kill the enemy. 3) how to use a witch to connect a spirit (sometimes an evil, sometimes others depends on the witch) to make a decision, for example, Palden Lhamo, Dalai Lama's demon and Dorje Shugden, a spirit who Dalai hates very much

Dude, WTF? Even in Jesus-crazed America, most of us have figured out that there are no such things as ghosts. And here we have you, pretending to be a modern Chinese, and yet you are afraid of Buddhists calling up witches and evil spirits?

Why do you hold these superstitious beliefs? What other superstitions do you believe in?

Re:Sophistry

[NeutronCowboy]

Perhaps you should talk to a bona-fide tantric buddhist practitioner before you paint them all with one brush, based on some bizarre cooks collection of papers.

NO! you can read their raw official "scripts" and "guides" directly and examine what I post here one-by-one (highly recommended)!!!

Number 1 sign that someone is trying to disseminate propaganda: only their very limited sources are trustworthy, and all others must be avoided.

I don't foe very many people, but I have no interest in official Chinese propaganda. Bugger off.

Re:Sophistry

[Enlightenment]

Well said, but I think it's important to distinguish between official and unofficial Chinese propaganda. Everyone knows it's them, but they don't admit it.

Re:Sophistry

[NeutronCowboy]

I consider propaganda that comes private entities but which mimics the official government propaganda to be identical. Deconvolution might be a private person, but the points raised by him/her are exactly the same that the official mouth pieces of the Chinese government bring forth. As a result, I don't care much about making a distinction.

Money

[microbox]

The US owes china a lot of money.

Envy is the weakness of china.
Greed is the weakness of the US.

athletes have opinions

[microbox]

Idealistic, and unrealistic. Olympic athletes are interested in careers, sponsorship endorsements etc... and NOT politics.

Since when where athletes too greedy to think for themselves? If athletes don't speak out, it will because of some threat over their career,

Re:athletes have opinions

[unlametheweak]

Since when where athletes too greedy to think for themselves? If athletes don't speak out, it will because of some threat over their career, I'm sure athletes can and do think for themselves. The point being that athletes (and lets face it people in general are more concerned about their own issues than some foreign policy stance). As for any threats to their career; yes, (I am being presumptuous here; meaning I cannot speak for ALL Olympians or their ideals and goals, but...) if an athlete thinks a company would be less likely to sponsor an athlete who speaks out on political issues, then that athlete would be less likely to cause controversy. However real that may be, I am sure there is a perception amongst athletes that there could be an economic backlash. As an example, there were a few athletes who admitted to being homosexual, but they only became open about this AFTER their Olympic careers. Nope, I'm not really talking about athletes, but people in general. Olympians sacrifice quite a lot of time and money (opportunity costs, if you will), to get where they are. I don't think many would be interested in any potential sacrifice of their goals of being a star athlete. Politics is a diversion to high performance athletes. I'm thinking of such fanatical statements I've heard in the past by Olympians like "No pain, no Spain"; and that young American gymnast who sacrificed her health by performing with a broken leg; and was later applauded for her "heroism", and had her picture put on the Wheaties cereal box container.

sowing the seeds of conflict in their own lives

[microbox]

I think the grand-parent was being glib.

Buddhists believe in karma, which is why they are against violence. Destroying people and taking their land is not a sane way of seeking happiness and stability. Your children will grow up thinking that they can solve problems by destroying others. The chinese people are sowing the seeds of conflict in their own lives. There is a tragic quality to all of this.

pirate it hahahha

[cheekyboy]

Download it from PB, that will teach the IOC. No money for them!

A better effort would be not not buy anything from there, but only taiwan. Common apple, make a Communist Free iPod in Red/white/blue.

Mabe we need to boycott walmart or put big signs b

[Joe The Dragon]

Mabe we need to boycott walmart or put big signs by the doors show what china does to Tibet for most of the items in the store.

Maybe we need to boycott walmart or put big signs

[Joe The Dragon]

Maybe we need to boycott walmart or put big signs by the doors show what china does to Tibet for most of the items in the store.

You've got the right idea

[jmichaelg]

I know I won't watch the Olympics this year. Not One Bit.

  Now let Coke, Samsung and Lenovo know you're not going to buy their stuff while they support the Olympics and you'll start being effective.

Lenovo may not give a damn, but Samsung and Coke aren't directly tied to China's teat. It's terrible PR to be tied to repression.
 

Cognitive Bias

[microbox]

Tantra means "continuity", and points to some sort of continuity of experience. Tantra is practiced because it is considered expedient in fulfilling the bodhisattva vow. Bodhisattva means "enlightened hero", and the vow is about working *ceaselessly* for the benefit of *all* sentient beings. If there were such a thing as an evil spirit, the boshisattva would be concerned about its liberation from suffering.

The famous Tibetan yogi, Milarepa, practiced black magic when he was a young man. He became ashamed and afraid that he was destined for a hell realm. He then sought out the great translator Marpa and asked to be taught how to work with his bad karma. Milarepa put aside all evil deeds and reconciled himself with his past, and went on to right thousands of songs about liberation from suffering. His story highlights two things about Tibetan buddhism:
+ Wrong deeds of the past (such as using black magic) can be rectified
+ Evil is not an inherit trait like goodness. If you aspire to be evil, you will suffer, but if you aspire to be good, you can find liberation from suffering.

Your understanding of tantric buddhism is misguided at best. It is completely plausible that someone can believe that they are knowledgeable about a subject, yet completely miss the mark. That's a topic addressed by cognitive bias.

Poor lonely Tchang and the Great FireWall of China

[Qwrk]

It shouldn't come as no surprise that now, all of a sudden, from behind the Great Fire-Wall of China there's loads of Chinese people crowding the forums of the free press.

It's shouldn't come as no surprise at all that all of these people defend the party line, and all of'm make the same mistakes in grammar, punctuation and spelling. The Chinese demagogs responding to the articles online are most likely brainwashed by their Government, or a mere puppets trying to force their despicable beliefs upon us.

Poor lonely Tchang has been given a dial-up line by the Butchers of Beijing and now has to force the Party Line upon us. In their crappy Chinglinsh they state that 'national interest is always over human rights', and it's an indication they are beyond help.

Tchang; don't be confused. We will have Human Rights prevail over National Interests! Human Rights issues are ALWAYS more important than national issues. There is more to Life and Humanity than Mammon, the current God of China.

Were it not the case, we'd be lost as Humanity.

NGO == non-governmental organization

[pongo000]

Please, editors, do your readers the courtesy of defining acronyms not in mainstream usage in your summaries. (Yes, even SANS failed to do so, but that's still no excuse.)

Re:Rage Against the Chinese? errata

[mgabrys_sf]

- Europe also took a not-insignificant role in Hawaii -

Got to stop speed typing before coffee...

What a bunch of hypocrites, all of you.

[smitingpurpleemu]

When the blacks rioted in LA in 1992, nobody thought that they were freedom fighters, everyone thought that they were thugs and gangsters. Hell, we aren't even the ones who once kept minorities in slavery. Yet nobody here seems to recognize the people raising hell in Tibet are the equivalent of thugs and gangsters.

American hypocrisy at its best, right here.

Re:What a bunch of hypocrites, all of you.

[Qwrk]

You obviously don't know the greater scheme of things...

The Dalai Lama has advocating the so called "Middle Way" for close to 60 years; talks and negotiations to come to some form of autonomous existence for the Tibetans.

The demonstrations of last week started on March 10th, the day HH the Dalai Lama fled into exile. These were started by monks and were soon dealt with by Chinese forces. That triggered a response by youngsters who see the 'Middle Way' as one tha's tking way too much time to their liking, and they advocate harsher measures, and yes; even some form of violent resistance. To be calling them names, where these people have been surpressed for well over 50 years, is a gross negligence of the facts that lie there for all to see.

Next time engage brain before operating mouth.

Re:What a bunch of hypocrites, all of you.

[Anonymous Coward]

You should read or watch Obama's speech on race. The oppression of black people was real although people didn't see it that way. Many black people are still disgruntled over this, and it shouldn't be forgotten less the same mistakes are repeated but it also shouldn't taint our views needlessly in the present because many things have already changed for the better.

It's by this and other insights that have been learned overtime that we can comment on Tibet. Calling people hypocrite for the 'sins their fathers' doesn't work because it discounts for their abbility to learn from their past mistakes.

Being able to learn however requires a certain amount of freedom, freedom to learn and discuss the past from any angle. If you can not criticize your own past or present, then it's impossible to learn.

China doesn't seem to have these freedoms.

Re:What a bunch of hypocrites, all of you.

[smitingpurpleemu]

No, you're the one who needs to use your brain. Blacks have been oppressed in the US for centuries. When they stage a riot over a perceived slight of their race, they are called thugs and gangsters. Now when Tibetans stage a riot over a perceived slight of their race, they are called freedom fighters. This is hypocrisy, right there.

Never mind the fact that the Dalai Lama is the one who kept Tibetans under slavery, while we abolished slavery, the fact that the Dalai Lama was encouraging British intervention in Tibet, and the fact that we are currently essentially sustaining Tibet's economy with handouts and investments.

Re:What a bunch of hypocrites, all of you.

[dangitman]

Blacks have been oppressed in the US for centuries. When they stage a riot over a perceived slight of their race, they are called thugs and gangsters.

Only by idiots. The same kind of idiots who would call the Tibetans thugs and gangsters.

Turn Tibet into Mideast?

[tresriogrande]

I don't think any of you guys have been to Tibet personally, or you care what happens to Tibetan people. If you did, you could not have made those comments. I visited Tibet last May, and to my surprise, most Tibetan people living in huge stone mansion like houses built by governments. You could see these houses throughout entire region with their unique colored roofs. Other ethnic groups (China has more than 50 different "races") are not so thrilled about this, but they can't do much to influence decisions made thousands miles away in Beijing. Much like the American Indians could operate casinos, Tibetan people enjoy many "rights" other ethnic groups do not. If you saw how many people participated in the riots, how it started (initially a march by the exiles in India to denounce Olympics), you can not help by notice the media's bias in reporting. To the peace loving people of the world, if you cared about truth, peace, and justice, you should read history, and digg the truth. Don't let the media and what it fed you blind you.

Unintended pun is worth a thousand words

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese government is red-faced on this...

Same happens with Soviets

[KiloByte]

Take a look for example at the "WW2" article. It's a freaking featured article, yet it's insanely pro-soviet. Instead of listing the Soviet Union as one of the two initial aggressors or even mentioning them as combattants on the Axis side, most of the article praises the deeds of Soviet soldiers.

"Deeds of Soviet soldiers". Hell right. Same as what happened in Tallin recently when folks protested against having a statue of thugs who occupied them for >50 years worshipped in the middle of the capital.

Does the WW2 article even mention Poles murdered between Sep 17 1939 and June 22 1941? Does it say anything about history books not even mentioning that time? Not a word. And I wouldn't call murdering most of Polish intelligentsia, officers and many of skilled workers something non-notable.

And why Wikipedia is so biased? Because it can be subverted with just a bit of astroturfing, something that Putin learned pretty well. The Chinese are starting to learn such tricks as well.

all of us in the world is feeding fascists

[unity100]

each chinese made product we buy goes into the coffers of the fascist administration that organizes such attacks. and no, im not american, im turkish, and i have no objection to cheap goods or outsourced labor. my only requirement is that what i pay shouldnt go to trash like these.

Parent is yet another troll redirect.

[sethstorm]

Do NOT click on parent link, goes to a shock site.

Re:Parent is yet another troll redirect.

[imkow]

fuck you , you cheap anit-china scum!

Chinese ppl will commit crime only on YOU

[imkow]

"The Chinese people have committed such a heinous crime against these people. Mao's army committed massive acts of rape. THE CHINESE ARMY F"ORCED TEENAGE GIRLS INTO SEX SERVICE."
=========
fuck you , how did you make up those bullshit! have you ever been China , or have any kind of evidence!?
if you keep telling false things like this, the only crime the Chinese people will do will be to you.
Go to hell , you fucking western underdog. dare you not use/buy anything chinese. else you will get a car crashing on you .
do not act like an enemry of chinese people, or they will get you. fuck you.

Re:Chinese ppl will commit crime only on YOU

[carpe.cervisiam]

Come off it. The Chinese army certainly raped Tibetan civilians in '59. Just like every other occupying force in the history of warfare. That is what happens when a government dehumanizes the enemy so their soldiers don't realize that they are killing their fellow man and go stark raving mad during combat.

It happened with the U.S. in Viet Nam and in Iraq.

It happened with the British in Dol Dol.

It happened with the Japaneses in China

I could keep going but it's just more of the same. If you still don't believe the Chinese army is capable of blatant human rights violations because these articles are just words, how about a video? WARNING THE PRECEDING LINK IS HARD TO WATCH!

every westerner must know these

[imkow]

i think every westerner shall understand something first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo
the video above presents common chinese people(like me)'s feeling about how you guys' evil stance on China's Tibet.
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
to reveal how westerner media blend the truth on the recent incident.

i'm a commoner and not a commie agent that you westerners used to call the ones who says something not western. i can tell judged by the poor quality and the signature the both video clips are made by some fellow patriotic chinese internet user, not gov't agent. they are just trying to make you libral-alike heroes know what really happened in the tibet region.
i understand you people hate anything communist,that's ok with me. but you should realize if you turned your finger to Chinese/China in large, you are against 1/6 of the earth peopulation. Trying to undermine China will only result in confrontation with everyone in China, either communist or non-communist. if confrontation is your goal, keep doing it, a world war III will be the only outcome.

Re:every westerner must know these

[kemushi88]

I stand fairly neutral on the issue. However, I find it sort of surprising that there are people (like the one that made this video) that are so sure the westerners are the holders and users of false information, but don't ever consider that the PRC government (well known for it censorship tactics) could be the source of just as much false or misleading information. IMHO, China accusing the US of spreading lies is kind of like the desert talking to the grain of sand.

Re:every westerner must know these

[carpe.cervisiam]

OK I watched your videos. I can't speak for anyone else here but I don't doubt for a second the news agencies in every part of the world are spinning the coverage of the events in Tibet for their own goals (Chinese media as well as "Western" media). That's the reason I turned off my tv 2 years ago. That's not what we are discussing. As for the other video, every protest is going to turn violent with sufficiently large numbers of participants. but all of this is beside the point.

The Chinese government is systematically dismantling the culture of the Tibetan people. Has the US done this? Of course we have. I live in southwest Louisiana. I am a Cajun. My grandparent's first language is Cajun French, not English. My grandparents were beaten in school if they spoke French. My government nearly destroyed my heritage so I am not just blowing smoke out my ass when I speak about this topic.

Now my children are taught to speak Cajun French in school. The preservation of my cultural heritage is being financed by the US government and the state of Louisiana. There are festivals celebrating our Acadian heritage such as Festivals Acadiens and Festival International de Lousiane

Can China claim the same thing about the cultural heritage of the Tibetan people? If there is no state religion in China then what the hell are they doing getting involved in the finding of tulkus?

Why are Buddhist temples still being destroyed in Tibet?

Wake up.

[microbox]

Evidence??

Well, the Dalai Lama wrote to Mao, requesting that Mao order chinese atrocities to stop. Mao did not bother denying the atrocities and said they were good for the Tibetans cultural transformation.

Whatever land claims China had over Tibet, it interesting how someone could possibly use that to justify rape and murder. I guess the Chinese have their fear of free thinking, otherwise they wouldn't bother censor and revising history. Why do you care so much about controlling other people's thinking? Wake up.

You can never justify misdeeds.

[microbox]

It is painfully obvious that a moral person does not justify their misdeeds by pointing to the misdeeds of others. You can never justify misdeeds - that is why they are called misdeeds. The world is what we make it. Lets make it a better place with human dignity. That means respecting other peoples thinking and livelihood.

Stop pretending you are a saint! disguesting

[imkow]

and stop telling the lies about the founding father of the people's republic. the truth is still that YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE BACKING UP YOUR CLAIMS OF LIES.
yeah, right. Chairmao Mao found the republic and dared to stab U.S.A in both vietnam and korea, so you pity western clowns hate him so much.
but we chinese people love him. despite of his mistaks in the economics. Your disguesting claim sounds to me is like calling your George.Washington is a massive murderor of birtish soldier, and lincoln is rather a butchor of people of the southern states. and the two barbarians should be hanged in a manner similar to Saddam. How does this sound to you!

Re:Stop pretending you are a saint! disguesting

[microbox]

How does this sound to you!

Well it sounds to me like you're in some kind of hell. You think you got all your logic worked out, and you think you're in heaven, but to be honest - it sounds like you're suffering a lot right now. Suffering is a message about your life - it comes from within.

THIS IS A PLAN ORCHESTRATED BY RUSSIANS

[Anonymous Coward]

The "mythical Russians", or Ashkenazi Jew as they called themselves, which those who invented communism and zionism and other hidden atrocities around the world, are clearly behind the uprising of Tibet.

Do you know the commonalities between California and Tibet?

U.S.A. grabbed California from Mexican, Chinese grabbed Tibet from Tibetian.

Mexicans are calling for re-conquista in California, Tibetians are calling for independence in Tibet.
Do you know Tibet's riots started right after Steven Spielberg boycott China and dropped out from the Olympic Organizing Committee?...Be very careful....The "Mythical Russians" are up to something.... If State Department is smart...keep their mouth shut! We need to keep our options open in case California goes nut.

The Hispanic radical elements might want to use May-Day demonstration to instigate riots to drag us into trouble and international condemnation.

Be very concerned....

This Tibet uprising is not as simple as it seems....

My crystal ball says that it may be a foreplay leading to uprising in California....

Re:THIS IS A PLAN ORCHESTRATED BY RUSSIANS

[mrbluze]

My crystal ball says that it may be a foreplay leading to uprising in California....

I had to laugh at that last sentence. I guess foreplay does lead to uprising, so to speak.

I can't see why.. err.. russians as you put it.. would want to destabilize China which is making these.. err.. russians.. so rich. Except of course if it's to make China not dump the US dollar or something. But anyway.

Getting more than you bargained for

[Mac_8100_g3]

A good percentage of the current generation has sold its soul to China in return for a constant flow of cheap clothes and electronics. And now they finance the debt for the Iraq invasion. Enjoy yourselves while the chickens come home to roost.

Is it only Chinese who're being brainwashed?

[justkeeper]

I'm suprised to find out that so many westerners(read:slashdotters!!!) are here talking BS about Tibet,and criticize others being brainwashed by Chinese government propaganda while they never do any research beforehand and being ignorant about Tibetian History.

    Please,please,if you don't believe in Chinese government's propaganda,do yourself a historical lesson with some credible materials (including the comments on the references)first:
    Have a look at the following articles:
                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet
                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_invasion_of_Tibet
                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_invasion_of_Tibet
and if you become more interested ,try to find all the references therein,and read them.
Also you can check out this video at youtube:
                                                  http://youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
Stop acting like a intellectual superior and shut up if you know nothing more than the people you criticized.

Chinese Trolls

[tringtring]

While these attacks are going on, the Chinese govt appears to have employed a mass of people to act as online trolls. Anyone visiting popular news sites such as Telegraph, Guardian etc., will see the unlikely spectacle of a very large % (in some cases almost all the) messages throwing mud on the Dalai Lama and calling him a terrorist.
It is a no-brainer to figure out that these folks are employed by the Chinese...but this is what is difficult to understand: don't the Chinese authorities (the posters' / commentators' paymasters) understand that if 95% of the comments to an anti-China article is in favor of China and against Dalai Lama, it will be obvious to the world that the hand of China is behind these postings?
Is it that the trolls became over-enthusiastic or the Chinese govt is so brainwashed in its own demagougery skills that it believes the entire world will believe their ridiculous propaganda?