Slashdot Mirror
Google Assists In Arrest Of Indian Man
An anonymous reader writes "After a Google user posted a profane picture of the Hindu saint Shivaji, Indian authorities contacted Google to ask for his IP address. Google complied. He was arrested and is reported to have been beaten by a lathi and asked to use the same bowl to eat and to use in the toilet.
Not surprisingly, Google is a keen to play this down as Yahoo is being hauled over the coals by US Congress for handing over IP addresses and emails to the Chinese Government which resulted in a Chinese democracy activist being jailed." Readers are noting that these are 2 unrelated cases — the latter is several months old.
I don't usually complain about badly written summaries, but this one made my head explode.
Hindu saints have IP addresses?
Well, I'm glad that google abides by the law here in canada. Clearly their motto of 'do no evil' is region specific; on one hand, I applaud their help in stopping crime, on the other hand, I detest the violation of privacy.
I guess I'm safe so long as my government respects my rights (because google will only go as far as the government seems deem 'right')
What happened to this man is despicable. However, we need to remember that Google is a company, not a judge in a court of law. It is not their place to decide if a court-issued subpoena is "worth" complying with or not, especially not in a democratic country (eat trolls, eat!). The big question is if they were responding to a court order in the first place, or the lean of some jackass in the government.
An old-timer with old-timey ideas.
The summary mixes up two different stories. The first (techcrunch.com) link points to a story involving a guy posting "obscene" comments about Sonia Gandhi and Mahatma Gandhi, while the later link (techgoss.com) points to the story that appears in the summary (involving Shivaji). Sonia Gandhi is an Italian born Indian politician and the leader of the ruling Congress Party. Shivaji was a ruler of Maratha Empire.
Also, the Shivaji story involves a goof up by the telecom provider Airtel that provided the details of the wrong person (not using the IP in question) whereas in the other story the ISP provided the details of the actual person involved. In both stories Google revealed the IP used by the "culprit".
US Telecoms are demanding immunity for assisting unlawful federal wiretaps.
More music, fewer hits
India is a Democracy. China is not.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
So when the FBI can demand personal information from places like libraries, and arrest anybody who even discloses that such a disclosure has taken place; and when the NSA can perform warrantless wiretaps on the USAmerican public; and when telecom corporations get retroactive immunity for aiding in those wiretaps... I don't think the USA is in any position to call Google evil for this. Get your own house in order first.
Shivaji was a Hindu king of Maharashtra who fought the (last powerful) Mogul emperor Aurangzeb and gave him run for his money. He is greatly revered by most desi patriots. But no desi calls him a saint!
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
This story is worthless without said profane pictures. Otherwise how can I acurately judge whether or not this person deserves to eat his own excrement. I need pictures dammit!! (Preferrably linked through Google images for the sake of almighty Irony.)
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Google better not do this at the Olympic Games to people from the usa and people from the us should set up a script to endlessly Google stuff about Tibet.
For having an outrageous law like the one this man was arrested for. Google owned or ran the site in question so they had to comply with the local law. I'm not saying I like it, but the blame should be shifted to India for having a law on the books that allows them to toss anyone in jail for posting in "vulgar language" about some politician. Democracy my ass.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
CmdrTaco, what's up with the crappy article? Are readers of /. the unsuspecting subjects of your evil experiment?
Why is this thus? What is the reason for this thusness?
The motto is not "do no evil," it is "don't be evil."
Not that it really matters, "evil" is a sloppy, ill-defined, and personally relativistic concept to begin with.
And of course, having an intent doesn't guarantee the ability to realize that intent, let alone to perpetually avoid any deviation.
And of course, loudly publishing such a motto doesn't actually mean that those at the top have any intention of living up to it. The perception of benevolence is what is really useful.
He was asked? Does that mean it was optional? I don't know about this guy, but I'd lean towards "No."
>> Well, I'm glad that google abides by the law here in canada.
Well they abide by the law in India and China too which is why they put people in prison.
Crime? You sure you want to word it that way?
What this man was convicted of may have been a crime in his country, but in the United States, Europe, Canada and most other places in the free world what he did would be protected under freedom of speech.
He was arrested for nothing more than saying something like "Fuck George Bush" or "Hillary Clinton is a stupid cunt licker" or "Barack Obama can go fuck himself" or "John McCain is an asshole." (There, equal opportunity.
Tastelss? Perhaps. Illegal? Not where I live.
My blog
But, I would have to say, when you actions lead to someone being beaten, jailed, and forced to use the same dish to eat and shit, then you can be sure your action was evil.
What the hell is wrong with the world?
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
. . . If he's convicted, he can be imprisoned for up to five years and may have to pay a fine up to Rs one lakh. Still applaud that? This isn't Google catching a thief or embezzler or rapist. This is Google turning in someone who said something that someone else who is powerful doesn't like.
More Twoson than Cupertino
They got the wrong party and roughly treated the arrested man. The idea is to send the message loud and clear, "we will get the IP address and catch you and mess you up. May this time we messed up the wrong guy, but next time, watch out." That is the logic of the Indian police who think this will reduce such incidents in the future. But what trips them up is that a savvy criminal will know how to hide his tracks, and it will always be the wrong guy who gets nabbed. But it allows the police to pretend they did something. (You might argue defacing Shivaji's picture is not criminal. But given the reaction you typically get from Muslims for defacing images of Mohammad, this reaction by the desis is quite tame. And this is a different argument anyway, nothing concerning Google)
If google had not promised anonymity to Orkut users, then it can't be held accountable. There are bigger villains in the story, the desi police, incompetent desi ISP, desi politics and the desi population in general that accepts this all.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Corporations are profit-seeking animals. If you expect any level of morality from them, you will find it near the stockholders' buy/sell margin or on accountants' govt tax deduction page.
They refuse to join the US in Iraq. You really think that's a bad idea? Pretty much every country involved in that "peacekeeping" operation now wishes they'd never got involved. Including the UK, and even the US. They hold a rally supporting the oppressed people who've been subjected to an invasion, abduction of their spiritual leder, systematic destruction of their culture and history. This is a BAD thing? And in your third link, to quote "...Delhi's insistence on using diplomacy to resolve the Iranian nuclear controversy". Heaven forbid we do something other than run in, kill a million of them and destroy their country. Topping it off with "everything's a commie plot". Nice one. You're either a very good tongue in cheek troll, or the type of american I'm most scared of.
I hadn't heard Shivaji referred to as a saint before, somewhat interesting usage of the term.
Shivaji is an interesting character. Perhaps best known for killing one of his Mughal enemies with a concealed weapon called a tiger's claw. Also well known as a defender of Hinduism who fought long and hard against the Muslim-ruled Mughal empire.
Ah, you must be a Bush supporter. Democracy is great! As long as you vote my way.
"Indian Man"
Something awkward and comic about this description. Curiously vague, while simultaneously exhibiting a misplaced precision.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Why should India waste their time, money and resources, and degrade themselves in the eyes of their people and other countries by supporting US/Western (I'm assuming that's what us refers to) foreign policy on Iraq, Iran and China?
The USA started the Iraq war, they can finish it themselves, it was a fucking disaster from day 1, and should never have been allowed to happen, India would be be imbeciles to join the US's failure.
Tibet is (currently) past of China, not part of India, not India's problem. The linked article is frankly irrelevant, few genuinely care if a handful of folks get in trouble over a minor march before the Olympic one, and the march or lack of it makes 0 impact overall.
Iran has nothing to do with India whatsoever, and saying that the fact that they are not especially bothered about a military solution to Iran is indicative of undemocratic tendencies is laughable. The story linked states that they prefer diplomacy to useless handwaving in the UN security council/US military interference, which is eminently sensible. Pacifism and discussion is better than killing of innocents, even if you don't personally approve of their government or society, etc.
Furthermore if you really think that Iran is going to make nuclear bombs and start trying to toss them at the US, then you need to turn the TV off. The leaders of Iran are *not* idiots.
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face - Ben Williams
This is why I refuse to be an exit node.
The guy in the Sonia Gandhi case was booked under Section 67 of the The Information Technology Act, 2000. (Check the section titled "Information Technology Act, 2000".
Apparently "being obscene" is a crime in India and the IT act takes it to the internet. So posting "obscene" stuff is punishable by an imprisonment of upto 5 years. So the crucial part was "obscene comment" not "targeted to Sonia Gandhi". Of course the person filing the complaint with the police was a member of the Congress Party (whose leader is Mrs. Gandhi).
India has many laws that are rooted in the prude thinking that is pretty much common there. This law is just an example that aims to turn "a behavior that maybe not be noble" into "a criminal act". The same law makes pornography illegal even though you can find pornography pretty easily.
Did anybody notice he circulated the message
under an email address that contains his name
("It was known that the vulgar message about Sonia Gandhi was circulated through an email address â" Rahulvaidindia@gmail.com").
Does someone want to stay anonymous if he
uses such an email address?
Homeboy ought to move to where you live. However, as he lives where he lives, the laws of where he lives were enforced, not the laws where you live. That, unfortunately, is the Way Things Are.
Never argue with a man carrying a water buffalo
8/10: Good troll, but you need more froth around the mouth area.
Here in the UK, we still have blasphemy laws, but the state has given up enforcing them - the last occasion of note was some play about Jesus being gay that upset Mary Whitehouse (not the porn star, the other one) back in the 70s.
Some Hindus take their religion just as seriously as fundies of all sorts, and the BJP and their ilk are pretty influential in India - given the religious tensions still active there following the great British botch that was Partition, it's unsurprising to me that sensitivities are easily pricked.
Having said that, you're right - it's no place of Google's to assist in the application of unjust law.
One swallow does not a fellatrix make
I've got a good idea, let's take out all the Greek, Latin, French, Spanish, etc. that is in English too...
Oh, wait a minute. I think it would just be easier to add 'lathi' to my vocabulary.
The Unicode standard is over 20 years old. Why does Slashdot not support it?
the last occasion of note was some play about Jesus being gay that upset Mary Whitehouse (not the porn star, the other one) back in the 70s.
I am fairly certain that there were people trying to invoke these laws when they showed 'Jerry Spring - The opera' on BBC, which had similar content.
it's no place of Google's to assist in the application of unjust law.
It is no place for Google to make judgements on which laws are unjust and which aren't, it is not their responsibility. The only option open to them is not to do business in countries where *they* (asterisked because, 'who are *they* exactly?') believe the laws to be unjust. If they choose to operate in India they must follow the local laws and regulations. If they operate in a country, and then refuse to obey the laws in that country then their directors risk punishment under the local laws.
The real culprit in this case is the Indian government themselves, who consider it acceptable to treat their citizens this way.
Google cache of the "offending" image
The pictures are sort of an anti-climax. The caption on Shivaji's picture (LODU) would translate to "dickhead" or "dick" probably. Amazing that this thing even caused rioting in Pune but then I suppose people from Maharashtra (ok maybe not all) seem to be as crazy about Shivaji as muslims are about their prophet!
Like it or not, this is a story about the laws of India and not about Google going anything "evil". See how long the thread lasts if it were about Google not pulling out of India because of this incident. What makes me sick is how many think this is a Google issue and not an Indian human rights issue.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Approximately 99.99% of Slashdotters can describe the Prime Directive, and how it works in a land of make believe.
A significantly lower percentage sees how it would apply in current-era Earth.
Whether or not that was the law where this person lives, that doesn't make it right for Google to have cooperated in this case.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
There seem to be three separate and distinct issues being conflated here:
1. India has laws that make it a crime to post "vulgar content"
2. Google provided information to Indian police in conformance with the law
3. Indian police are alleged to have badly mistreated a suspect
Be outraged about #1 and #3 if you wish, but I see no malfeasance inherent in Google's actions #2.
Information brokers - what Google is, essentially - are going to need to figure out what they're trying to do.
If they continually ACT as if they are responsible for the content that's connected by them, then they are going to be continually TREATED that way.
Nobody would even consider suing a phone book for the number they listed for a mass murderer.
Politicians (apparently across the world) don't understand that Google is little more than a well-linked phone book, and that despite all the cool stuff you can get, ISP's are not much more than a phone company.
This will continue to bite them in the ass until they say "Look, we're data-neutral. We don't give a crap what we index, if it's out there, we index it. You don't like it? You're going to punish us for what we link to? Fine, we'll just stop serving IP's from your country."
-Styopa
"I dunno, I could think of a few people who I wouldn't have issue hearing were being beaten, jailed, etc."
Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld?
Google is to blame for complying with an oppressive, anti-human-rights law, just like Yahoo is. They've stood up to the American government, I'm baffled why they wouldn't stand up to the Indian government, but it makes them no less in the wrong. There are standards for human rights, no company should obey laws that violate human rights just to operate in the country where they are violated. India SHOULD be punished for having this law on the books, and the punishment should take the form of Google's refusal to obey its laws. If the Indian government tries a reprisal against Google, then the punishment should take the form of Google ceasing to do business there.
The only argument you can make against this is that it would hurt Google's bottom line, and that's no argument at all.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Here is an excerpt from the wikipedia section on his religious views. Remember he is (portentially) a Hindu saint, but seems to be more of a Hindu king.
Chhatrapati Shivaji was a devout Hindu and he respected all religions within the region. Shivaji had great respect for Warkari saints like Tukaram and Sufi Muslim pir Shaikh Yacub Baba Avaliya of Konkan
Orbis terrarum est non altus satis
Not everyone lives where you live. You need to follow the laws of the locality you are doing business in, when inside of those localities. It is not google's place to determine what laws are "just" and "unjust".
By your logic, someone from Amsterdam should be allowed to setup a shop next door to you selling illegal drugs (in the US) and it should be OK... because after all, where they live it's legal.
You're given the choice: "Shoot this dog, or we kill your entire family".
What do you do?
Stop pretending that right and wrong are so easily definable. In order to make the right decision, it's important to weight the positive and negative effects of your actions. EVERYTHING you do leads to some negative results. Driving your car to work increases violence in the middle east. Eating meat results in the killing of animals and the inefficient use of arable land. Eating soya and tofu leads to rain forests being burned to create plantations. BREATHING releases greenhouse gases!
Life is a series of trade-offs - the best we can do is to try and minimize our negative impact, while maximizing the positive.
His actions might not be so protected in Canada as you may think. Mark Steyn is up for a hate crime for denigrating Muslims.
My fellow Americans, let's restore the death penalty for child rapists. Let's do it . . . for the children.
Wrong analogy. It's more like, "If you want to do business with us, shoot that dog". We know what Google will do in that situation.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
INDIA: We want that IP address.
GOOGLE: OK, it's... um... hmmm...
INDIA: What?
GOOGLE: Seems we had a glitch. A lightning bolt hit a tree that fell on a remote data center and knocked out power to a critical storage device, and also crushed it and set it on fire. And the original lightning totally erased it. And then a dog ate it. Sorry. *Total* act of God, there.
INDIA: This is unacceptable!
GOOGLE: OK. Let me forward you to our offshore troubleshooting expert.
OFFSHORE EXPERT: (In thick, Indian accent) Hello! My name is Bill Johnson! How may I help you today?
Boo, shit-eating Indians!
Sure, give the Indians a hard time... but when it's two white girls with a cup, it's an internet sensation. Typical xenophobia.
Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature.
The description of the story is really messed up.
The one case where someone insulted Sivaji has nothing to do with Google. It has to do with Airtel, a phone company in India.
The other case is one where someone slandered a politician - The story does not say what the actual insult/slander was, but the cops did not prosecute just for criticizing -- the owner of the discussion group was left alone. There was a much better written story , but the editors picked the wrong one.
http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
If google really wants to "Do good, don't be evil", I would accept that they needed to comply with the request of the Indian legal authorities in handing over this man's IP... However, having seen the Indian government's use of that information, they should redirect any searches coming from an Indian IP for the next three days to a message raking the Indian government over the coals for their behavior. If they did THAT, then I might still buy their slogan. You can be forgiven for incidentally doing a little evil if you then make up for it in the larger scheme of things.
No no no, do NOT get all international on what constitutes democratic values and the philosophy where they derive from.
Sure, i too can get tolerant and accept that the Indian people have the right to institute in their laws things like hitting people for expressing their thoughts and then making people eat from the shithole.
There is nothing we can or should do to stop the Indians from doing whatever the hell they feel like with their own laws.
NOW, an AMERICAN company, HELPING a foreign government to do exactly what i depicted above, is NOT DOING A NICE THING.
They are doing an EVIL thing if we judge them from occident we can say certaintly and ethically say, we SHOULD say: fuck google and the horse they rode on.
Fucking assholes.
NO SIG
Shivaji is not a Hindu saint. He is an ancient(?) king of one small part of India. In thise parts of India ( Maharashtra and Mumbai) abusing him can get you in trouble. People try to put him forward to create problems as he was famous because he fought wars with Muslim kings for power (not for love of Hindu religion, although people want to believe otherwise). I consider no King to be good for people and definitely Shivaji was not; there can never be a good king. Insulting him is not exactly like insulting a politician.
My personal opinion is that India do lack freedom of speech. Not restricted by law, but by crazy people. The press and judiciary is last resort of a sensible person.
Hope my home does not get burnt for this comment. Slashdot, please do not give away my IP address.