OpenMoko In Stores On July 4

ruphus13 writes "July 4 will be day when OpenMoko's Neo FreeRunner will be available to US consumers. Being Open Source, it is modifiable down to the core. From the article: 'The FreeRunner is based on a GNU/Linux, and it will initially ship with basic software to make calls, send and receive SMS, and manage contacts. But the company is encouraging users to write and install their own applications. Software updates will add features to the phone over time, and the company said an August update will enable location-based services.'"

Comments

Damn, that was quick

[Planky]

The online store has already run out of the GSM 850 model.

Re:Damn, that was quick

[Planky]

And by that, I mean the 900 model. Ergh.

Re:Damn, that was quick

[comm2k]

It is not sold out - it's just not in stock yet.

Dear All, Sorry for delay long time!!! So far, only GSM850 Freerunner is available in stock, Debug board and spare also!!!

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/020394.html

Re:Damn, that was quick

[clarkkent09]

Dear All, Sorry for delay long time!!! So far, only GSM850 Freerunner is available in stock, Debug board and spare also!!!

How come they write like retards?

Re:Damn, that was quick

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't say much for a group that named their phone after the Spanish word for booger (moco).

Wonder how well these will sell in South America and other Spanish speaking countries:
"Hey Pedro, nice phone, that the open booger one?"

Re:Damn, that was quick

[karthikkumar]

I had preordered one :-) thanks to a slashdot post

Re:Damn, that was quick

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear All, Sorry for English very bad!!! I don't know why three exclamation marks needed!!! But maybe two not enough!!!

Seriously, though -- this sort of amateur rubbish doesn't give you much hope for the product's technical support ...

Re:Damn, that was quick

[MrNaz]

It's an open platform, so hopefully support will come from the community. As long as the hardware works, I'm sure we (the Open Source community) will be able to collectively work it all out. After all, we reverse engineered DRM, emulated Windows and support non-documented protocols like CIFS/SMB and MSN.

Re:Damn, that was quick

[Clueless Nick]

So have I - from IDA Systems! Phone expected to ship today or tomorrow from their side.

The screenshots look good enough - we'll need to see what comes preinstalled and what we have to force in. I use the MotoRokr E6 now, which is good but not open, and lacks an application universe.

Re:Damn, that was quick

[kyofunikushimi]

Yeah; just like how the Gimp is never installed in any English-speaking countries?

Re:Damn, that was quick

[mmontour]

How come they write like retards?

Because English is not their native language (many of the Openmoko people are in .tw or .de).

Re:Damn, that was quick

[Garabito]

Can't say much for a group that named their phone after the Spanish word for booger (moco)

Well, Nissan did it too.

Product names that aren't so good in spanish haven't stopped Mazda or Kia

Re:Damn, that was quick

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear All, Sorry for delay long time!!! So far, only GSM850 Freerunner is available in stock, Debug board and spare also!!!

How come they write like retards?

Because most of them aren't native speakers of english. retard.

Re:Damn, that was quick

[Nicolay77]

Laputa is the first time I have ever seen a brand that might offend some owners.

OpenMoko is a non issue at all.

Re:Damn, that was quick

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, did you just substitute "how come" for "why do"? What are you, 5?

freaking is back ...

[giorgist]

Can I ask the powers that be ...

Could I run a program that can make calls the world over and charge to my account ? ... if so, we have a problem

G

Re:freaking is back ...

[msgmonkey]

Most likely the GSM functionality of the phone is completely seperate. You can buy embedded modules today that are basically a phone minus the screen and keypad. They have serial digital audio links and the process of making calls is done via AT commands.

A phone that allowed the user to modify the GSM stack would never get type approval.

Re:freaking is back ...

[TheRaven64]

You don't need to modify the GSM stack to make calls, you just need to use the top layers. To answer the grandparent's question, yes you can. You are the user, you are in control. That's what Free Software means. You can run any program you want and it can do anything you allow it to. If you don't want it to be able to make calls, don't run it with permissions to access the GSM hardware.

Re:freaking is back ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh? I can do that with any phone - I call it "making international calls". Very 1337.

Re:freaking is back ...

[LarsG]

In many phones (including the FreeRunner) the entire GSM stack is handled by a separate chip. As you say, it is required for type approval in a handset that is as open as this one.

Writing software to talk to one of those is quite deja vu if you were into modem stuff in the bbs days. Serial link, AT command set. From the point of view of the Linux software running on the phone, it is pretty much identical to an old PC connected to a serial modem. Retro-computing in your pocket. ;-p

Re:freaking is back ...

[LarsG]

The OP does have a point, though. The Openmoko folks better make sure that gsmd (and whatever device node the serial interface has) has proper access control, so that a rogue program can't give you a nasty surprise when you get the phone bill.

Re:freaking is back ...

[phantomfive]

Not really, it's pretty simple actually. You can just send an ATDT2095555555\r\n or similar command onto the GSM modem serial port. You are right, that you can get modules that can do basically everything, some even come with openGL, however, a lot of the basic communication still comes over the serial port: you can generally do things like provision your cell phone, check for SMSes, make calls, etc.

For the record, I think AT commands are a horrible interface. A few months ago I wrote a networking layer built on the built in PPP stack of a CDMA modem using AT commands. It was the most miserable piece of code I've ever written.

Re:freaking is back ...

[msromike]

Sounds interesting. I would like to see it.

Re:freaking is back ...

[phantomfive]

Here you go. Can't send my code because it is under NDA. Check on page 267 for some good examples of what you have to type, and what the modem responds. If you go to www.wavecom.com and look for documentation for the Q2438 modem (but you have to log in).

The main issue is the asynchronous responses. You have to be constantly reading stuff that comes back over the wire to see if there was an error, or if it was a successful operation, or if there was an unsolicited response (see the first half of the manual). Also, there is no way to guarantee that inbetween you sending an AT command and a response getting returned, that an unsolicited response wont get inserted in the response. In the end, there are so many special cases it drives you crazy looking for them all. I'm still not entirely sure I got them all. There are a number of things Qualcomm could have done to simplify that interface, and I cursed their name a lot in the process. They make good good hardware, but there programming systems are horrible.

Incidentally, AT commands are pretty generic. You could probably unsolder the modem from inside your cell phone, hook it up to the serial port on your computer, and access it directly (the hardware interface is usually well documented for most modems). If that link stops working, let me know and I'll try to find that document in a different place.

No GSM 1800?

[msgmonkey]

Anyone know why they only have GSM 850 & 900? Atleast half of the networks in Europe are 1800 and we're now in theage of tri-band phones. It's nice it has WiFi and everything but it seems that this is more like a PDA with a (not very capable) cellphone tacked on, it does n't even have EDGE support.

Re:No GSM 1800?

[Bob54321]

They are triband 850 or 900 /1800/1900

Re:No GSM 1800?

[msgmonkey]

You're right of course, on the BUY NOW section it lists the phone as 850 & 900 left me dazzed and confused.

Note to self: Don't comment first thing in the morning.

Note to self(2): Dont leave note to self on slashdot.

Re:No GSM 1800?

[comm2k]

The GSM 900 version supports GSM 1800.

Re:No GSM 1800?

[dubloe7]

as does the GSM 850.

Woops, My Bad

[msgmonkey]

Sorry, I went straight to the BUY NOW section, where it offers "GSM 850" & "GSM 900" which what they mean is 850/1800/1900 & 900/1800/1900.

Note to OpenMoko: You could make this a bit clearer.

Note to Moderators: Please be gentle :)

Although I stand by the EDGE comment.

Re:Woops, My Bad

[LarsG]

I agree. In terms of hardware (and especially on the cellular data side) this isn't anything to get excited about.

On the other hand, this handset's market segment is the "Linux in your pocket" people. Which meant that when they picked the components, the important question was "is this chip supported by Linux" and not "does this chip support the latest technology".

I'm kinda surprised myself that they couldn't find a GSM module that supports at least EDGE. But if the alternative was a binary blob driver (or more likely, unavailable or only-nda-available AT command set documentation, errata etc) well... :-/

Also remember that OpenMoko has a lot of rough edges still. The basic stuff is said to be working, but it is certainly not suitable for Aunt Tilly. The main market for this device is people who absolutely want true open Linux on their phone and who are willing to contribute (writing software, bug reports, porting, testing, etc) to make that happen. So, hardware ain't hot but it is as open as they could find; and except for camera it has all the hardware components needed (bt, cellular data, usb, wifi, etc) to enable people to test and develop the software needed for a fully featured handset.

Availability

[bugg_tb]

When will UK carriers pick up these open source phones and supply them to contract customers is what I want to know! :)

Re:Availability

[comm2k]

Most likely never ;)
Unless you want an rather ancient tech phone which is also locked down and crippled to no end by your network provider.

Re:Availability

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably never. At least for this model of OpenMoko. It doesn't support 3G, which is what most of the European networks are now flogging for mobile video/audio/broadband/etc

Still tempted to buy one though

Re:Availability

[kylegordon]

Most likely never ;) Unless you want an rather ancient tech phone which is also locked down and crippled to no end by your network provider.

The UK isn't terribly bad for crippling and locking phones. We have a healthy unlocking market, and some stores (namely CarPhoneWarehouse) insist on selling unlocked phones. Admittedly, sometimes the phone will come with awful branded firmware (I'm thinking P990i and N95 here), but it's quite simple to reflash it with a world generic firmware that has all the features and none of the branding. It's .us that is renowned for ruining phones in the above fashion.

Re:Availability

[stephanruby]

Probably never. At least for this model of OpenMoko. It doesn't support 3G, which is what most of the European networks are now flogging for mobile video/audio/broadband/etc

Flogging? Is that a British idiom?

In any case, it looks like you can still can get gsm access in the UK, and will be able to do so in the near future.

http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_gb.shtml

Re:Availability

[rugatero]

Flogging? Is that a British idiom?

Yup, flog is slang for sell. Interestingly, it is also Australian slang for steal. Could lead to some unfortunate misunderstandings.

• Australian immigration office: "So how do you plan to support yourself in Australia?"
• British immigrant: "Flogging cars"
• AIO: "Visa application denied!"

Re:Availability

[ResidntGeek]

It's .us that is renowned for ruining phones in the above fashion.

Did you just identify a country by its TLD instead of its name?

Re:Availability

[kiddygrinder]

nah, else he would have said .com

Re:Availability

[Bert64]

Well, they sold the locked iphone in the carphone warehouse...

Re:Availability

[Anonymous Coward]

But don't forget how Australia came to be, as a British prison colony...

Re:Availability

[TheRaven64]

3G usually means UMTS, and most UMTS phones will fall back to GSM for voice and fall back to GPRS for data if a UMTS signal is unavailable.

Most of the UK is covered in GSM signal, and most of the urban areas are covered with UMTS which is increasingly being upgraded to HSPA. From the page you linked to, take a look at this map. Most of the 'middle of nowhere' type places are covered with GSM and all town, cities, and a lot of the 'not quite the middle of nowhere' areas are covered with UMTS.

Upgrading from GPRS to UMTS was the reason for my last phone upgrade, three years ago, and so a phone that would require a downgrade is simply not interesting to me. I could live without HSPA support, since UMTS gives around 50KB/s real-world speeds (possibly more - that seems to be the peak throughput for my current phone's bluetooth chip), and that's enough for the moment, but it would be nice to have an upgrade path.

No one is investing in GPRS networks anymore, since anyone who cares about data access has been on UMTS for years and is thinking of moving to HSPA with their next upgrade, so you are likely to have worse coverage in the future, while UMTS and HSPA networks are being upgraded constantly.

Re:Availability

[dodecalogue]

The Future is Now!

Re:Availability

[gilesjuk]

Nope.

It's a highly niche market device and not many non-geek users will want one without a camera.

Also, it's big and not exactly attractive. I owned a dev unit for a while before losing interest in trying to program it. It wasn't a very refined device, casing was a bit flimsy. On the whole quite quirky.

Of course it will appeal to some, but it would need to look and perform as well as an iPhone 3G to capture mass market support.

Re:Availability

[g0dsp33d]

Obligatory all your TLD are belong to .us.

Re:Availability

[Anonymous Coward]

All these acronyms are utterly bewildering to this mobile phone newbie. Can anyone point me to an explanation of what they all mean -- and by that I mean a start-at-the-beginning tutorial that really explains what they mean, and their relationships to each other -- not just a glossary of what the acronyms stand for?

Re:Availability

[TheBracket]

You wouldn't believe how much of a pain it can be when I accidentally use UK English in conversation (I live in Missouri, USA now). My very first day here did NOT go well when I asked a Saint Louis airport security guard about where to smoke fags (cigarettes).

After several years I still wonder why I haven't received lovely, hot chunky deep-fried potatoes when I accidentally order chips.
On the upside, very few people know what a wanker is...

Re:Availability

[LarsG]

I suspect that smiley is intended to show that you are joking, but in case it was a serious question: No. Never.

The cell carrier free phone on contract business plan depends on the customer staying with the network, in other words SIM-lock. More often than not they also do modifications to the phone software to flog the carrier's services ("click here to go to our mobile music store!") and disable phone functions that the carrier doesn't like (more so in the .us, but happens in .uk and other places too).

That is exactly opposite to what the FreeRunner is, a niche market linux-geek phone running a completely open and user-modifiable Linux software stack.

Re:Availability

[onkelonkel]

My buddy just got back from a holiday in Australia. Said he had a big hassle at the airport with the customs guys. They asked him if he had a criminal record, and he said he didn't realize it was still required.

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

Re:Availability

[NDPTAL85]

About your signature... ...there's nothing sad or shallow about wanting to be proud of one's country. The past 43 presidents the US has had have been white. Some were great, some were bad, most mediocre. Seeing as how the US has survived the worst presidents we've had even if Obama is just as bad as Bush it would still be inspiring to have our first black president. We'd get there even before the snooty French and other assorted European nations.

Don't really know why you are unable to grok this. Are you a highly skilled IT professional? Possibly afflicted with Aspergers syndrome? The lack of emotional perceptibility that comes with Aspergers might be why you can't see why Obama's candidacy is inspiring so many people.

Re:Availability

[ResidntGeek]

I see why it inspires people, and it's a stupid reason to be inspired. I'm an atheist, and we've never had an atheist president, but if we did it wouldn't make me say "golly gee, maybe that means _I_ could be president too!"

Bottom line is, black people as a whole have spent 150 years campaigning to be recognized as equals; why is it that skin color matters _at_all_ for the president? A black president and a white president will be equal in all respects other than skin color. There shouldn't be anything inspiring about another identical president.

By the way, is it easier to disagree with someone's assessment of your emotional response to something if you just assume they don't have emotions and can't empathize with you? It's not a healthy way to think of people who disagree with you.

Re:Availability

[anethema]

Wikpedia

GSM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM
GPRS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service
UMTS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Mobile_Telecommunications_System
HSDPA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Speed_Downlink_Packet_Access

Re:Availability

[frsmith]

Hi Re: '(I'm thinking P990i here)' I have this pain for a phone here in the UK. Where do I go to 'flash' this, and put something on that works! Cheers Bob

Re:Availability

[NDPTAL85]

I too am an atheist and I would be inspired if one was elected president given the current religious makeup of the country. And yes it has a lot to do with "golly gee, maybe that means _I_ could be president too!"

I'm black and I know we've been campaigning to be seen as equals but this excitement around Barack isn't coming from blacks. Blacks didn't even rally behind the guy until he won Iowa which was a majority white state. Blacks stuck with Hillary until Barack proved he was more than just the black candidate. No this excitement is coming from white people who want to believe their country has opportunities for all and not just them. Its one thing to say opportunities exist for everyone, its a whole other thing to actually see it happen.

I assumed you had aspergers because the emotional appeal of Obama's candidacy is obvious even to REPUBLICANS. So for you not to be able to understand it made me think there just might be something wrong with your brain. If I was wrong then I was wrong. This goes way beyond simple disagreement though. We could disagree on whats the best color shirt to wear to a party, but for someone to not "get" Obama's presidency whether you agree with his policies or not is just puzzling.

Nice to see GSM technology still around

[QuantumG]

The rest of the world has moved on, but it's good to see third world countries (and the United States) clinging to this ancient technology.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[hedwards]

What are you getting at? I can tell you're not trolling, but what do you mean?

This isn't like Europe and developed parts of Asia, we've got relatively low population density and spend far less money on cell phones than typical customers in those areas. As a result the time tends to be longer.

Of course we're also fans of bureaucracy and corporate malfeasance so it'll take even longer than it would in a sanely managed geographic region of similar specifications.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Mark Trade]

Point is, this isn't an internet tablet. It's a phone. GSM is sufficient for this task.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[urcreepyneighbor]

it's good to see third world countries (and the United States) clinging to this ancient technology.

Give us a break. We're still trying to convince people that our species is older than a few thousand years.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[iLogiK]

The thing is...when I first heard about the OpenMoko project, I loved the idea, I thought it was great, I couldn't wait for it to be released. But it took them so damn long, that by the time it get's released, you've got a better iPhone (not much better, but I'd still rather have it than the Freerunner), and you've got Android which should be out this year. Also the specs for OpenMoko which looked really good 2 years ago aren't so hot right now. I for one am sticking with my Nokia E51 for know, and will probably get an Android phone when they're released. Sorry, OpenMoko, you're just too late for the party.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[FurtiveGlancer]

We're still trying to convince people that our species is older than a few thousand years.

Not to be disagreeable, but there's asbolutely no viable evidence of the geek species prior to the 20th century. Greek, yes; but geek, no.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell this to the operators auctioning for the CDMA spectrum.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[plasmacutter]

How about Ada Lovelace, someone so geeky she was programming for computers before they existed.

Marie Curie also falls into this.. can't get geekier than playing with radioactive materials out of pure interest.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, with an attention span like that, I recommend you head on back to digg. The phone isn't supposed to be an answer to the consumerists.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[iLogiK]

the point I was trying to make is that it took them so long to finish the damn thing that the specs got outdated and companies with more resources managed to make a better one. Don't get me wrong I hate the way Apple does business and their products but the iPhone SDK is a step in the right direction on better hardware.
As for Android, I think it's what openmoko should have been on the OS side.
The only thing openmoko has that android doesn't have is open hardware.

I'm sorry I gave you the impression I read digg.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[amRadioHed]

Of course we're also fans of bureaucracy and corporate malfeasance so it'll take even longer than it would in a sanely managed geographic region of similar specifications.

Yes, I believe that's what he's getting at.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[ShadowEFX]

And she did that mov....no, waitaminute, that's the other...no wonder I can't find the LINDA programming language!

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[imroy]

If by "third world" you mean most of the world, then yes. Otherwise you're a stupid troll.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[abigsmurf]

To use an analogy. GSM is a 56k modem, 2.5g/3g is broadband. Everyone with a phoneline can use 56k but the vast majority of people choose to use broadband. 56K is (usually) only used when people have no other option.

GSM is very old technology and unsuitable for modern phone users who want to use anything other than fundamental basic phone features.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[imroy]

While GSM started many years ago, it is not a single technology. It has been enhanced with new technologies over the years - GPRS in 1997 and EDGE in 1999. These provide 2.5/2.75G services. UMTS is a proper 3G technology - it uses a new W-CDMA modulation but still uses the GSM protocols and networks. GSM lives on.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[TheRaven64]

Not really. GSM is a phoneline, GPRS (2.5G) is a modem, and 3/3.5/4G (UMTS, HSPA and so on) are broadband. GSM is really only of use for making calls. Using it for data is insane - you won't get more than 9.6Kb/s and you will be charged a huge amount. GPRS gives you a maximum of about 5KB/s with 2 second latency in the real world - it's worse than a 56K modem (which had similar bandwidth and better latency). UMTS gives me around 50KB/s with around 200ms latency, and so is comparable to the broadband connection I had back in 2000. USPA can give a very similar broadband experience to the one I have now (although it's still much more expensive).

Actually, I just looked at the prices for HSPA. For about £5 more per month than I currently pay for my home broadband connection, I can get a HSPA connection with a 10GB/month fair use policy (not huge, but not too bad). Combine this with a phone that I could drop into a docking station when at home to charge and share the connection with my home network and I'd be very interested.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[KlaymenDK]

Yes, I too really, *really* wanted a Freerunner. But, now that it's here, it seems not quite as great as the iPhone, as far as I understand it the software is hardly stable as a basic cell phone (let alone as a useful pda).

I'm actually cancelling my group sales preorder because I prefer to use my ancient PalmT3 plus separate crummy old Nokia that can't even talk to my pda.

Lesson? Design your software around a virtual platform, then put together the hardware as late as possible. Maybe. I don't know.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[QuantumG]

Ya know, if you guys keep this up, people are going to start thinking that Americans can't take a joke.

It's even moderated funny.. lighten up.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[edelholz]

AFAIK the Android phones will not be open in the OpenMoko sense, i.e. no own binary apps. But then again, you're considering an iPhone as an alternative, so yes, the OpenMoko probably isn't for you, at least not yet.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with plain old GSM? It's good enough for calls, properly configured.
  And the triangulation atleast leaves some guessing
on the room it's located.
  I'm more comfortable with a dumber phone. Having a cellphone has become practically mandatory for a vast amount of people.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[FireFury03]

GSM is really only of use for making calls. Using it for data is insane - you won't get more than 9.6Kb/s

Not true - GSM allows for HSCSD, which is basically bonding of up to 4 GSM channels, giving you 38.4Kbps.

Also, depending on your application, using GSM CSD instead of GPRS may be very beneficial - GPRS has really high latency, which makes interactive stuff like SSH really painful (also makes establishing SSL connections terminally slow because of the number of round-trips needed for the handshake), whereas CSD is significantly lower latency. The upshot of this is that if you need to do something like administer a server over SSH, you want CSD, not GPRS.

GPRS gives you a maximum of about 5KB/s with 2 second latency in the real world

This is _really_ variable and depends on how busy the cell you are in is. If you're using CSD then once the circuit is established you are guaranteed the bandwidth, whereas the bandwidth available on GPRS will vary. I use GPRS a lot on Orange's network, and I can tell you that it'll go from "reasonable" to "shockingly bad" (~300 bytes per second, 5-45 seconds latency, over 50% packet loss) to "no connection at all" at a moment's notice - I certainly wouldn't want to rely on it for anything important.

Also, I see very frequent dropouts within Orange's network itself (i.e. not on the air-interface), but that is down to Orange's incompetence at running an IP network rather than the technology itself.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[orasio]

What are you getting at? I can tell you're not trolling, but what do you mean?

This isn't like Europe and developed parts of Asia, we've got relatively low population density and spend far less money on cell phones than typical customers in those areas. As a result the time tends to be longer.

Of course we're also fans of bureaucracy and corporate malfeasance so it'll take even longer than it would in a sanely managed geographic region of similar specifications.

Or in Latin America.
In Uruguay we have a country-wide 3G network, even though 3G penetration is not _that_ high.
lots of other Latin American countries do too.
I think that it's not a geographical thing, it's only an issue of the US being pwned by a couple of telecoms that get away with any shit they want.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[jonaskoelker]

there's asbolutely no viable evidence of the geek species prior to the 20th century

Common sense also says that to be older than that, you need a breeding population.

(Captcha is "epaulet", which happens to be a type of mate position in chess).

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[yada21]

It made her tits fall off and she wasn't even botherd. In fact she was so hard she joined the army in WWI.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[yada21]

GSM is really only of use for making calls.

Who'd want to use a phone for that!

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[tehcyder]

Ya know, if you guys keep this up, people are going to start thinking that Americans can't take a joke.

On this side of the pond we're still a little bitter about the whole Independence thing, so we resort to cruel mockery.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[*weasel]

http://www.christies.com/Lotfinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4205385

QED

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[LarsG]

I'd advise non-geek people to stay far away from this phone, there are better and cheaper alternatives everywhere.

If you are the kind of person that thinks phrases like "Linux in your pocket", "software packaging", "porting and cross-compiling", "bugtesting" sounds like fun and you want to help make true open Linux on phones a reality then this is the phone for you. If you are not that kind of person, then buying a FreeRunner now will only be a frustrating experience; please come back later when the platform is more mature.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Anonymous Coward]

archimedes and pythagoras were greek geeks.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[LarsG]

If you are of the opinion that check marks on a feature comparison list is more important than Stallman's 4 freedoms then this phone is quite simply not for you.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[iLogiK]

Thank you!
I'm all for linux being everywhere, I love hacking as much as the next slashdotter, but until it get's there I'm sticking with that works and has what I need.
I'd love to use linux on the desktop and I tried to do it, but there are some things I can't use linux for.
The same goes for phones. Until it gets more mature, I'm sticking with something I know will work.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Excelsior]

there's asbolutely no viable evidence of the geek species prior to the 20th century

Who do you suggest invented the wheel, an ancient race of Hilton heiresses?

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be disagreeable, but there's asbolutely no viable evidence of the geek species prior to the 20th century. Greek, yes; but geek, no.

Crazy talk! People have been biting the heads off chickens for Millenia!

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Yfrwlf]

I'm pretty sure the phone they are selling works fine for making calls, adding contacts, the basic stuff. So, supposedly it works fine now for use as a phone, and as more software gets put onto it, the experience will only improve.

I don't think you'd be buying a broken phone by buying this phone, just not a feature-rich phone, there's a difference.

Anyone know of an actual review of the phone yet to see just where the software is at right now?

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Yfrwlf]

You have a point, but come on, this is Slashdot, geeks want to see their phones be able to do anything and everything.

If I can't play Quake Wars on my phone on a multiplayer map with 100 other online players, what good is it?? Wow...talk about eye and finger strain...

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Anonymous Coward]

I beg to differ! The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism/ was certainly created by greek geek.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[FurtiveGlancer]

ancient race of Hilton heiresses

Of course, they inadvertently invented the wheel when they dropped their stone hair curling cylinders. I thought I was all alone in this theory. Thanks for reinforcing the concept. ;-)

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[Anonymous Coward]

We're still trying to convince people that our species is older than a few thousand years.

Not to be disagreeable, but there's asbolutely no viable evidence of the geek species prior to the 20th century. Greek, yes; but geek, no.

I know you're joking, but we are pretty much reproductively isolated from the rest of the human population.

Re:Nice to see GSM technology still around

[chrisfinigan]

Maybe it was Ms. Curie's diddlings that began the mutation chain into the current geektype.

Just to clarify

[kombipom]

The 900 model isn't really sold out it's not arrived at the distributors yet so it's not currently available.

Also the reason it uses GSM is that the team have tried as far as possible to use OPEN HARDWARE ie fully documented and not lumbered with proprietary closed-source drivers. GSM was the only option as all 3G hardware is completely closed.

Also please everyone, don't start the "it's not as good as the iphone" flamewars. If you want an iphone you don't want this and if you want this you probably don't want an iphone.

Re:Just to clarify

[cerberusss]

If you want an iphone you don't want this and if you want this you probably don't want an iphone.

Are you kidding me? They've both got:

• An antenna
• run on a battery

EVERYTHING that fulfills both requirements will be mine.

Everything?

EVERYTHING.

Re:Just to clarify

[AVee]

The 900 model isn't really sold out it's not arrived at the distributors yet so it's not currently available.

The 900Mhz version is available from resellers in the EU.

What network?

[davmoo]

Even though I readily admit I hate the shape of the case they put this thing in, I am otherwise quite interested in this phone from the "open" standpoint.

But assuming I were to buy one of these, what carriers in the US will let you put it on their network without grief or a number of hoops to jump through?

Re:What network?

[ookabooka]

Uh, I would imagine any that support GSM/SIM. My cell phone company has no clue what phone I am using on their network (HTC Hermes) and it works just fine.

Re:What network?

[oldhack]

AT&T and T-Mobile run GSM networks. There may also be regional ones using GSM service.

Re:What network?

[CopaceticOpus]

Hear, hear! I'd like to see the breakdown of what it would actually cost to use this on a U.S. network and what kind of service to expect.

I did find this list of U.S. GSM providers by following a link from OpenMoko's Q&A page, but it's not all that helpful.

Since this device has wi-fi, what I'd really like to do is to use it as a Skype-like phone over wi-fi when I'm at home, and then have it switch to regular cellular when I'm on the road. Since I make most of my phone calls from home, I should theoretically save a lot of money this way. Realistically, I don't know if this is possible.

Re:What network?

[FreeForm Response]

T-Mobile HotSpot @Home

T-Mobile has several handsets that support this very feature, they connect over wi-fi whenever possible and handoff to GSM the rest of the time (hopefully) without dropping the call in progress.

My apologies for the Flash site behind the link. =(

Re:What network?

[mrchaotica]

Even though I readily admit I hate the shape of the case they put this thing in

Feel free to download the plans, modify it however you see fit, and fabricate the result!

Re:What network?

[FurtiveGlancer]

I've decided to put up with two more years of closed phones to have Verizon's nationwide CDMA coverage area. AT&T and T-Mobile are making gains, but still aren't quite to the point of GSM/3G coverage that serves my needs. Let's see what the next two years bring. OpenMoko may play a role in my future cell phone usage, but not this year.

Re:What network?

[Yfrwlf]

That's part of the point of a wifi/GSM phone. The only question I have is if the Freerunner can do this right now with the software it has or not, but even if it doesn't, since it's just a software deal, it's only a matter of time until it has it.

Re:What network?

[Gori]

Well, of you hate the shape :
1. get the CAD files : http://downloads.openmoko.org/CAD/
2. Modify them
3. Find a CNC shop to build them (solid brushed alumunium case anyone ?)
4. ?
5. Profit !

Re:What network?

[Jellybob]

Realistically, I don't know if this is possible.

Isn't the whole point? It's Open Source.

The question isn't whether it's possible, the question is whether you know how to write the software to do it, or happen to know somebody who'd be interested in doing it.

Re:What network?

[FireFury03]

You won't get Skype on it since Skype is completely proprietary (and why on earth would you want it?). I can't see any reason why you couldn't run a SIP user agent on it though. It runs Xorg, so you can probably run Ekiga on it.

Re:What network?

[CopaceticOpus]

The part that might not be possible is finding a cellular service provider to go along with it. Most plans seem to start at $40/month and go up from there. Pay as you go plans typically charge 20 cents per minute, which is great if you make an hour of calls per month, but if you make 5 hours of calls one month you're looking at $60 for that month. And if you want any data or text messages it complicates it further.

The advantage of using wi-fi for internet based calls is that by only making a fraction of my calls using cellular, I should only have to pay a fraction of the cellular fees that I would otherwise pay. Unfortunately, the cell providers have priced their plans to make this difficult. You only get the cheaper per-minute and per-byte rates if you buy a high-priced plan and use it often.

Re:What network?

[Joe Jay Bee]

You won't get Skype on it since Skype is completely proprietary (and why on earth would you want it?)

Because most people with VoIP on their computers use Skype.

Re:What network?

[Yfrwlf]

If you can't use Skype without their own software and nothing else though, that's like using Yahoo and being forced to run the Yahoo client instead of Gaim, Kopete, or any of the others. Obviously you should run what you'd like though, but for myself I'd like to help steer others to completely neutral solutions, but of course since Skype is free you just have to make sure you know what you're getting into. For example buying an "unlocked" VoIP phone/system that isn't locked into Skype or any specific system, but which is open to any VoIP server.

Then, there's the VoIP-to-PSTN part of it that you'll be tied to if you use Skype. Anyone know of any good VoIP-to-PSTN services that are cheaper/better than SkypeOut/In or whatever it's being called now? Skype charges $35.40 a year for unlimited US and Canada calls, and $119.40 per year for worldwide unlimited. Again, if you make sure that the phones you buy aren't locked into one particular carrier (which is really lame), you have more freedom to use alternatives.

Re:What network?

[Yogiz]

Why is parent rated funny. This is actually possible with this phone. The cad files are freely available and can be changed and produced.

Re:What network?

[FireFury03]

Because most people with VoIP on their computers use Skype.

Most people run Windows, most people store their important data in propriatary formats that won't be accessible in a couple of upgrades' time, most people pay their cellular service providers crazy amounts of money each month and think that their frequent phone upgrades are free (and even though they don't particularly want the upgrade, they may as well have it coz it's "free", right?) - just because most people do it doesn't make it a sensible thing to do.

Re:What network?

[FireFury03]

If you use Skype, you are tied into using their software (which is only available on certain platforms) and Skype branded hardware (if you want a hardware phone). For talking to other people using VoIP, you can only talk to other Skype customers. If you want to gateway to the PSTN, you are tied into using Skype's own gateway. If you're not happy with the service, too bad - there's only one company that runs Skype servers, and that's Skype themselves. If you're not happy with the PSTN pricing, too bad - you're stuck using whatever pricing Skype decide on.

On the other hand, if you choose to use the industry standard protocol - SIP - you get to choose what software you want, and you can also pick from a vast selection of hardware phones and ATAs made by many manufacturers. You can place calls to any one connected to any SIP server on the internet (you can even set up your own server, and in certain network environments, you don't even need to use a server). If you want to call someone on the PSTN, there are literally hundreds of gateways - if you don't like the service or the pricing you can just change the gateway you're using.

For example buying an "unlocked" VoIP phone/system that isn't locked into Skype or any specific system, but which is open to any VoIP server.

The industry standard protocol is SIP (even the PSTN is starting to run on SIP in some parts of the world - it really is *the* standard). If you choose to use SIP, you can basically talk to pretty much anyone except Skype customers, because everyone except Skype uses the standard protocol. Skype chose to use a proprietary protocol for which they have released no specifications. As such there are basically two incompatible systems: there's Skype and there's everyone else.

Anyone know of any good VoIP-to-PSTN services that are cheaper/better than SkypeOut/In or whatever it's being called now?

There are literally hundreds of SIP-PSTN gateways - shop around for the best deals depending on what kind of calls you plan on making. I'm in the UK and use VoipUser to gateway a number of DDIs to my SIP server and SIPGate offer a reasonably priced outbound gateway.

Re:What network?

[Skapare]

I'd go for solid brushed copper, myself.

Re:What network?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad you can't actually download any of those plans. You would've thought they'd check that they don't 404 first, huh?

Re:What network?

[Yfrwlf]

Actually, I knew all that but was avoiding saying SIP to not confusing anyone, haha. ;) I hope it's not too long before you don't need your analogue gateway services anymore. Since most phone companies are on VoIP any way it should be pretty simple to convert over. So how much do you pay per month for your PSTN gateway, is it cheaper than Skype's pricing? Thanks. :)

Re:What network?

[FireFury03]

Since most phone companies are on VoIP any way it should be pretty simple to convert over.

This really isn't the case I'm afraid. There is a migration towards VoIP, but the vast majority of the service providers aren't there yet. Many of the networks are starting to move to a halfway-house solution by moving their signalling networks over to SIGTRAN (basically SS7 over IP), whilst keeping the traditional voice circuits. I imagine that once there are a lot more SIGTRAN networks (and therefore more widespread IP infrastructure within the telephone networks), full VoIP will follow in the form of SIP, but I expect it'll be years before the majority of PSTN calls are handled entirely by an IP network.

An interesting project to keep an eye on is BT's 21CN (21st Century Network), which is an ongoing effort by BT to move their entire PSTN over to IMS (which means phone calls will be handled by SIP) - it is already in use in parts of Wales.

(I used to work on PSTN protocols - mainly SIGTRAN, which I have to say is not an especially well designed stack in my opinion).

So how much do you pay per month for your PSTN gateway, is it cheaper than Skype's pricing?

VoipUser provide free PSTN->IP gatewaying (non-geographic numbers) - I use that for running some services, such as voicemail. SIPGate also provide free PSTN->SIP gatewaying (geographic numbers) and charge for SIP->PSTN calls through a pay-as-you-go style system - look at their website for information about their tariffs.

Re:What network?

[Yfrwlf]

Thanks a bunch for that info. :)

Sweet.

[NaishWS]

Though I am not a fan of the appearance, it is quite a powerful phone, with a 500mhz processor, which is not quite as powerful as the 700mhz processor on the iphone, but still decent nevertheless. Ofcourse, the benefiting factor being that it is open source, where as the iphone is not. It will be a great time when we are able to buy a phone, with the basic functionality installed, then choose what particular software we want to add on the phone, for free. The main problem with phones today is that there is really no way that the community can fix or improve the software without complications, but if the company is actually encouraging open source software to be developed they will provide the necessary tools (APIs etc) for the community to do these improvements themselves, saving them money in the process. It also appears that more phone companies are starting to follow this open source trend, but will probably still keep their strangle hold on their customer base by using DRM and SIM locks, you can read the article here. Openmoko are definitely in the right direction, I wish them much success.

Re:Sweet.

[bjmoneyxxx]

After seeing some comments after the news about Palm a few days ago, I'd have to say I'm happy with my treo 650. Their are countless programs available online for it, though it is not open.

Re:Sweet.

[Anonymous Coward]

please read this

http://www.openmoko.com/product.html

before giving specifications

Re:Sweet.

[NaishWS]

I got my information from here. "400/500 MHz Samsung 2442B Processor/SOC (400 minimum, ARM920T core, ARMv4T)" I may also be incorrect about the processor speed of the iphone, for the 3G it may only be 620. Anyways point wasn't to get the exact specs of the phone, was just stating that they were quite close.

Re:Sweet.

[KlaymenDK]

Don't compare computing power based solely on CPU frequency. True, the figure is comparable to "horse power", but that's very much not the same thing as "top speed".

Re:Sweet.

[LarsG]

If we're doing car analogies, CPU freq would be more in line with engine RPM.

Freq is only a measure of how many ticks (revolutions) per second the CPU is capable of. Without knowing how much computing it can do per tick, you can't translate freq to computing power.

Re:Sweet.

[Ancient123]

After seeing some comments after the news about Palm a few days ago, I'd have to say I'm happy with my treo 650. Their are countless programs available online for it, though it is not open.

I currently have a Treo 650 (Palm OS).
I have just repeated been annoyed by the lack of good free (as in beer) software for it.
Not to mention any time I use it for say Instant messenger and Sudoku (or anything else for that matter) I gets unhappy and reboots.
It also has a tendancy to treat my answer call button as a reboot command...
All of these repeated issues are what got me to buy my own openmoko.
IMHO it is a very expensive upgrade that supports a company with a nice staff and an attempt to create a completely open phone.


|||| TLDR? : Palm OS buggy? Try linux instead.

startup time?

[Luke_22]

I've seen some videos on youtube...
it seems it takes about 2m.30secs to startup (not from standby, that is actually fast)

was it an older, developer version or what?

funny, the thing that keeps me from buying a nokia n810 is the lack of gsm/normal phone support, and the thing that keeps me from buying this is the lack of a real keyboard...

well, since it has a usb host i supporse i can always plug in a little keyboard, but it will never be like the e70 :,(

The rest of the world has moved on?

[ya really]

Oh really?

Global System for Mobile communications (GSM: originally from Groupe Spécial Mobile) is the most popular standard for mobile phones in the world. Its promoter, the GSM Association, estimates that 82% of the global mobile market uses the standard.[1] GSM is used by over 3 billion people across more than 212 countries and territories.[2][3]wikipedia.org

Verizon, a CDMA carrier, is starting trials using LTE, a GSM (4G) variant this year, eventually they'll switch over leaving only Sprint as the main provider of CDMA

I like CDMA, but I'll welcome GSM with Verizon if it means I can try out the OpenMoko. Oh yeah, what were you saying again about GSM?

Re:The rest of the world has moved on?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh really?

Global System for Mobile communications (GSM: originally from Groupe Spécial Mobile) is the most popular standard for mobile phones in the world. Its promoter, the GSM Association, estimates that 82% of the global mobile market uses the standard.[1] GSM is used by over 3 billion people across more than 212 countries and territories.[2][3]wikipedia.org

Verizon, a CDMA carrier, is starting trials using LTE, a GSM (4G) variant this year, eventually they'll switch over leaving only Sprint as the main provider of CDMA

I like CDMA, but I'll welcome GSM with Verizon if it means I can try out the OpenMoko. Oh yeah, what were you saying again about GSM?

Some more precision

GSM is the 2G standard, and still used in so called 3G networks. In fact when making a phone on your 3G phone, most of the time you use the 2G network. In fact if your phone allows you to select which network takes the priority, you'd better choose GSM than 3G: better quality, and less drain to your battery.

Now, 3G (UMTS) is actually a CDMA based technology, so not very efficient. It is funny that 3G+ (HSDPA) is in fact a going back to TDMA type technology (like GSM).

4G (LTE or even WiMax) are definitely based on OFDM

Re:The rest of the world has moved on?

[Jellybob]

Wow... my head is exploding with acronyms.

Not your fault, since that's just how the mobile network names seem to be.

It has however given me some insight into what people must feel like when our floor full of developers, sysadmins, and network engineers goes to the pub on a Friday night.

Re:The rest of the world has moved on?

[Narcogen]

Umm...

LTE is not GSM.

LTE is not 4G.

GSM is not 4G.

In fact, there *is* no 4G, no such thing exists.

Thanks for playing, though. The industry does make it very, very easy to get confused, and there are more than enough parties willing to take advantage of that.

The bottom line is that most of the world is still using 2G/2.5G services, mostly based on GSM. And even in places where 3G exists (UMTS or HSDPA with CDMA2k) many users are still not using those services.

Re:The rest of the world has moved on?

[ya really]

LTE is not GSM.

It's not directly GSM and I never said it was, I said VARIANT, as in based on GSM

GSM is not 4G.

Duh, I never said that it was

Verizon dumps CDMA for GSM-based LTE in 4G networksengadget.com

In fact, there *is* no 4G, no such thing exists.

It doesn't?

Verizon had a choice of three competing 4G technologies: LTE, WiMAX, and UMB. UMB (Ultra Mobile Broadband) was formerly known as EV-DO Rev. C, and is supposed to be fully backwards-compatible with other CDMA technologies while providing a significant speed boost. The technology has had few takers so far, however, and Verizon's decision to move away from EV-DO may doom UMB to a niche.arstechnica.com

Ralph de la Vega, president and CEO for AT&T's wireless unit also his commitment to LTE, for the company's upgrade path to 4G.telecoms.com

Perhaps you should write to Verizon and AT&T and tell them they have no clue what they are talking about. They could probably use a good consultant like yourself.

Not exactly a hard sell, are they?

[Anonymous Coward]

"buy our phone". No screenshots. No list of apps on the phone. I'm okay with open source, but I need something that actually works without having to write it all myself. Sorry no thanks.

Re:Not exactly a hard sell, are they?

[ozphx]

Yeah considering I bought a XDA2 many years ago to take advantage of all the homebrew based on that (Win Mobile, .net compact). Only homebrew I run is my crappy timesheet program I wrote.

Turns out I couldnt be fucked installing (cracked = free) commercial third party stuff with nice installers. Doubt it being OS is going to make my experience any different

Re:Not exactly a hard sell, are they?

[shani]

If you clicked on "gallery" then you would have seen screenshots:

http://www.openmoko.com/product-gallery.html

A list of applications is a bit harder to find, but it is on the wiki:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Core_Applications

Of course, this is just the "core applications". Since it is an open platform, there are quite a few more, in the usual mixed states of maturity. :)

And since this phone is targeted at developers, if you don't want to write apps then no reason you should get one.

Re:Not exactly a hard sell, are they?

[Yfrwlf]

I think the software so far is pretty basic on the OpenMoko but the main stuff is there. Comparing it to Android for example, I think Android has more software right now due to the emulator and SDK Google pushed out. Android has a much bigger base of course, but then again, OpenMoko will have more apps too once Android phones finally come out. I'd like to know in what ways if any Android is more locked down than the OpenMoko software, and you also have to keep in mind that the Neo Freerunner itself is built as an open hardware device, while the phones that Android will come on will be less geared towards openness I'd assume, but since times are changing, who knows for sure.

With so many open mobile groups gearing up for action aside from Android and OpenMoko, like LiMo and Moblin and others, the future will be an interesting and good one.

Re:Not exactly a hard sell, are they?

[spandex_panda]

Can we install android on this open moko? if not, why not? is so then thats great right?

gps software?

[Luke_22]

I see it has built-in agps device...
does anyone know what software it uses? map coverage?

and... what do you slashdotters suggest as alternative? :)

Re:gps software?

[guruevi]

I don't think it comes with any software or maps for the GPS. I have a Nokia N800 and there is a commercial package but I hate paying, so I opted to use maemo-mapper. It downloads the maps from Google Maps or Virtual Earth or Yahoo Streets and it has GPS support (with a bluetooth GPS module I picked up for $30) and it is awesome. Much faster than a TomTom (acquires GPS signal in a second or 2) and it has some other cool features. It uses GTK for the interface and the Nokia is ARM-based Linux as well so it might be simple to adapt.

Wow

[abigsmurf]

'The FreeRunner is based on a GNU/Linux, and it will initially ship with basic software to make calls, send and receive SMS, and manage contacts.'

Paying that much for a phone with a feature set not unlike a cheap phone from 10 years ago...

I fail to see the point of this phone for the general public, most people will never touch the OS source code and Windows mobile already has plenty of free and commercial aps around plus it's on much cheaper phones.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

On the otherhand compiling, installing readline, telnet, and tintin so I can mud from my phone is going to be comparatively straight foreward, as compared to say an iPhone. For an outlandish and silly but also in my case perhaps all too likely example.

Re:Wow

[Dragonslicer]

'The FreeRunner is based on a GNU/Linux, and it will initially ship with basic software to make calls, send and receive SMS, and manage contacts.'

Paying that much for a phone with a feature set not unlike a cheap phone from 10 years ago...

Those are just the software features that are part of the core package. The hardware specs are much more impressive (includes a touchscreen, Bluetooth, WiFi, and a GPS receiver). The software will come soon, as developers write applications to use the hardware.

Re:Wow

[LarsG]

I fail to see the point of this phone for the general public, most people will never touch the OS source code

Exactly.

I wish the general media would shut up about this phone, at the current state of OpenMoko FreeRunner should realistically not even be a blip on the radar except for geeks that like to play with code. It is sort of equivalent to pushing "Desktop Linux" in the age of kernel version 0.95.

but...what does it DO???

[soundguy]

The website is remarkably information-free. "Basic software" doesn't tell me a damned thing. I'm all about x86 pizzabox servers and CentOS. I don't know anything about these mini-platforms or ARM processors to start with. Does it come with a compiler or does all development have to be done externally? Does it have any shell tools? Does it have a Perl interpreter? SSH? Is there any graphical internet stuff at all yet for the platform (browser, ftp, email?) or is this an entirely new "ground up" environment.

I'd love to have a Linux phone just on principle, but I don't want to have to build the whole damned thing from scratch.

Re:but...what does it DO???

[Anonymous Coward]

The software stack of the phone is still under development. You can make and receive calls.

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ASU_Feature_Plan

Re:but...what does it DO???

[shani]

Go to the Wiki:

http://www.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page

And all will be revealed.

Re:but...what does it DO???

[Anonymous Coward]

At the moment there isn't a lot of software to install, even the general phone functions are at the alpha stage but progressing rapidly. It can be used as a basic phone, don't expect it to be 100% stable just yet. It definitely has a terminal and ssh. If you want to know more look at the wiki (http://wiki.openmoko.org), it's a bit disorganised but there is a lot of info there. The "New Framework" stuff will let you know where the project is headed.

If you want a phone that just works, wait until the OS stabilises but if you are excited by the idea of mobile hacking and you want to shape the OS from the start, dive in.

Re:but...what does it DO???

[belgian_embedded_]

OpenMoko uses OpenEmbedded for setting up the toolchain/filesystem... You can use OE to build the entire enviroment without much effort [we all know what that meens in embedded :-) ].
OpenMoko Wiki
OpenEmbedded

Re:but...what does it DO???

[Anonymous Coward]

dunno how good the info is but try http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page and click on 'current software stack'

Re:but...what does it DO???

[Culture20]

I didn't see anything answering GP's (or my) questions there.

Re:but...what does it DO???

[shani]

Did you even look?

Typing in "compiler" in the search box returns this as the first link:

http://www.openmoko.org/wiki/Toolchain

Typing in "perl" in the search box returns this as the first link:

http://www.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List

And so on. I am guessing the product is not mature enough for you if you are not able to navigate their help pages (or vice versa perhaps). ;)

With a name like that, how can it NOT succeed ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Opem Moko Caca Loco

I hear Ricky Martin doing it now !!

Caveat emptor

[Anonymous Coward]

IMHO, The software very much in the rough, and I would not recommend anyone to use this as a primary phone yet, unless they seek motivation to contribute to and improve the project.

AT&T, probably any other GSM carrier.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

I just had to bite the bullet a few months ago, retire my AMPS/TDMA phone and switch to GSM. (AT&T is the only cell carrier that covers my vacation/eventual-retirement home and they're shutting down the TDMA option.) Had hoped OpenMoko would be in time for me but they missed by about 9 months.

With them in mind I got one of the "free" locked phones - and checked what the unlocking and phone switching policies were. AT&T claimed:
  - The PHONE is locked to the CARD, but,
  - The CARD isn't locked to the PHONE (either by the card or by the network refusing to accept calls with that card and any other phone.)

Story is likely the same for any other GSM carrier. So just pull the GSM smartcard from any and shove it into your OpenMoko phone.

If you're signing up for new service, ask them if they'll credit you with the phone allowance if you bring your own phone rather than making them give you one of the "free" ones. Might not work but won't hurt to ask. (And if there's another GSM carrier in your service area, you might try hinting that you'll see if THEY'll credit you for the phone...

  Of course don't tell them that it's an OpenMoko phone. I bet they're scared you - and thousands of others - will download some hack that lets you bypass some part of their service model. B-)

Re:AT&T, probably any other GSM carrier.

[davmoo]

I should have been more clear in my original question, so the fact that I got some poor answers is my fault.

But your answer here is what I was looking for, thanks!

What I should have initially asked is what US providers that use GSM will allow you to bring your own phone to the table and shove one of their sim cards in it and make calls.

Currently I have a Verizon CDMA phone, and my current contract (my 5th with them) ends in September. I've been with Verizon for going on 10 years now, and have no real complaints. The iPhone is not enough to make me consider switching to AT&T. But OpenMoko is.

Re:AT&T, probably any other GSM carrier.

[LarsG]

What I should have initially asked is what US providers that use GSM will allow you to bring your own phone to the table and shove one of their sim cards in it and make calls.

The fact that you even feel the need to ask this question makes me wonder how much the US cell carriers have managed to brainwash the populace.

Here in EU it is simply taken as a matter of fact that you can take any sim card you want and have it work in an unlocked phone. If carriers even considered making that impossible, the public would go instant pitchfork mob and the EU equivalent of the FCC would come down so hard on the carrier that tsunamis would flood the US east coast.

To be honest, that's perhaps a slight exaggeration. But only slightly; that you can use any sim in an unlocked phone is Simply The Way It Is.

Camera

[dinker]

Is there a camera on this baby? If not it has no chance.

Re:Camera

[bergwitz]

Yeah, it won't go well in European markets without a camera. Even business customers expect a camera on their phone these days. No EDGE or 3G is also serious flaw.

Like somebody else said: it's a PDA with some phone features.

I recommended people interested in an open source phone to ask Nokia when they will have one ready. Linux isn't made for mobile phones, Symbian is, and Symbian will be released as open source soon. If(when) I can hack the Symbian software on my E65 I'll have a top notch smartphone. Without camera, EDGE and 3G, the Neo Freerunner will never be a top notch smartphone.

Re:Camera

[shani]

Indeed, that was the missing feature that made me decide to go with the iPhone, even though the closed nature of the iPhone makes me grumpy.

quite nice, but...

[whtvr]

I have to say it looks kinda slick, the same way as iphone does. I also like the default menu theme. Whole idea of open source is nice; even though I am not OSS idealist there should be a lot of decent software written for it. Well, maybe not a lot of decent software but a lot of software and some of it should be decent... or something like this.

On the other hand I am not a big fan of phones without hardware keyboard. Sure it's nice thing to show off, those on-screen keyboards (and other input methods) but I always picture myself running in the rain trying to get to the meeting that I am late for and to type an sms on such screen-only device... SE P1i which I have now with all it's drawbacks has a fantastic (almost) full QWERTY keyboard. 2.5mm audio jack is a PITA as you have to get one of those converters. Also it can't be used as HF since there won't be no mic on the cable. Does it at least have a loud speaker?

Other thing is already mentioned lack of 3G support. 3G networks are quite common here in Europe and while I don't really video-call people fast internet while on the go is a nice thing to have. Even EDGE would do but it's not present... Well, at least it has wifi - I find myself using it rather often on P1.

120x62x18mm - slightly bigger than iphone but still acceptable. 185g - a bit on the heave side but I could live with it. All in all for 250euro + shipping it's not a bad deal (I paid 450euro for P1 last autumn) - do they ship to Europe? I'd still wait for Android based phones and perhaps new smartphones form Noika (typo deliberate) but I hope those will come with touch screens (and hardware keyboard).

As a side note: it's tough time for buying a smartphone that "has it all" right now...

Re:quite nice, but...

[whtvr]

no camera? no camera?! c'mon... i don't take a lot of pictures but at least i could take one if i really want/have to... openmoko for 250euro + shipping it's a rip-off, disregard what i wrote previously

*sigh*

Re:quite nice, but...

[Jellybob]

If you want a camera, buy a camera.

I'm getting really sick of the fetish for everyone taking their photos with shitty cameras built into mobile phones.

Re:quite nice, but...

[whtvr]

You missed the point Jellybob. I take pictures like twice a year. Do you really think it would be a good choice for me to buy a full blown digital camera and carry it around just to take pictures twice a year? On my mobile I have a decent (for my needs) 3.2 megapixel camera with autofocus - it's by no means perfect but it's good enough if I want to take a quick shot of something and share it with my friends and I don't need a 40 megapixel SLR to do that.

And as much as I am opposed to "taking pictures with a phone" idea (sounds a little like printing using toaster) it's just pure convenience - I have a phone, I make phone calls, send messages and every once in a while it can also be my PIM/video and audio player or a digital camera (it also opens pdf, doc and xls files).

It's far from fetish IMNSHO.

Sigh..

[__aardcx5948]

As usual with lots of OSS projects, the device may be grand and all but there's little to no documentation about it in terms of marketing. Why would I want this? What applications does it come with? What do they look like? Can it play youtube videos? Can I listen to MP3 while I surf the web? Etc...

Re:Sigh..

[Two9A]

Sure, you can do all those things!

You just have to write or port the applications yourself; the only thing the phone can do right now is call people. Feel free to port a web browser, mp3 player, office package...

Re:Sigh..

[__aardcx5948]

I guess you were ironic, but if not; how is that going to make people want the phone? That's like selling a "house" to someone, and all the buyer gets is some bricks and wood.

Re:Sigh..

[Creepy Crawler]

Bzzt. Wrong analogy alert.

Correct analogy: It's like buying a house but you gotta buy/create the chairs, table, and other furnishings to make it YOUR home.

And woyuldnt'cha know, you can either use your time and port programs or purchase a programmers time to port for you.

Re:Sigh..

[__aardcx5948]

Yeah true, but I already paid for the phone, should come with all that ready, huh? ;-) But I guess this phone isn't meant for the mass market. :-) I'd like to have one myself!

Re: PHreaking is back ...

[mikelieman]

You misspelled phreaking.

Lacking

[speakerbomb]

The website desperately needs more product screenshots, a downloadable video showing the OpenMoko in action, more helpful feature descriptions and an overall friendlier tone. I wanted to buy, I really did, but the website is a killjoy bigtime.

Authorization

[tepples]

Could I run a program that can make calls the world over and charge to my account ?

Yes, which is why you don't add programs to a group that can connect to the GSM module unless you want them to make calls.

Re:Authorization

[giorgist]

Soooo ... we are asking people to trust that the software will do the right thing. The wrong thing will have to do with our privacy, our identity, our money ... very dangerous I would say

Re:Authorization

[thecroc]

Thats why you only get open source software from trusted sources. You don't just randomly download and install apps from any random website.

Re:freaking is back ... - SPOILER FOR DOCTOR WHO

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

No, but it will let you make all sorts of crazy calls and let you communicate with the Doctor...

Alright fanboys,

[A3aan]

Put your money where you keyboard is! Personally, I don't have a keyboard. I prefer to dictate via windows vista, because I can.

Re:Alright fanboys,

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer to dictate via windows vista, because I can let's set so double the killer delete select all.

There, fixed that for you.

OpenBogey to Spanish-speakers...

[thinkahead]

I wonder how many of the people who make this OpenMoko thing speak Spanish, because a 'moco' is a 'bogey'. Who would want to buy that? Or are there no hispanic geeks in Gringolandia?

Re:OpenBogey to Spanish-speakers...

[GregAllen]

You mean "booger".

From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:
    booger
              2: dried nasal mucus
    bogey
              n 1: an evil spirit
              2: (golf) a score of one stroke over par on a hole
              3: an unidentified (and possibly enemy) aircraft

Re:OpenBogey to Spanish-speakers...

[phantomfive]

Heh, that's nothing. In Hawaii, there is a popular dish called a Loco Moco. A mix of eggs, gravy, ground beef, and other stuff. Pretty tasty actually.

SAR

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I'd love to get one, but the SAR is ten times that of my current phone. As much as I am a fan of nuking my food, I'd rather not nuke my brain any more than I absolutely have to. It's not much fun to toast yourself :)

has anyone actually held a shipped unit?

[jpellino]

cuz what I see online are some spiffy *illustrations* and no actual photos other than the CES one or two...

Re:has anyone actually held a shipped unit?

[Ancient123]

Check youtube and http://planet.openmoko.org/
at the very least it isn't vaporware

This is about freedom (OT, reply-wise)

[jonaskoelker]

Doesn't anyone find it kind of funny?

The Freerunner is about freedom; free software, free hardware designs. Launch date is 4th of July. I hear there was some freedom going on at the 4th of july some 232 years ago.

(sinister voice) Coincidence? I think not...

Gentlemen, start your lawyers

[chord.wav]

-Harry, there's someone in the house! Call 911!
-Can't you see it's compiling, woman?!?!? C'MON!!

Re:quite nice, but..."

[ChunderDownunder]

Agreed, a photo taken with a typical low-end VGA camera *is* a gimmick. (Others may point out one can buy a higher end phone with a 10 mega-pixel camera but I suspect that's not the end of the market you're referencing.)

However, such a 'mugshot mode' does at least allow the possibility of face-to-face chat over wifi/3G. VGA exceeds the resolution of most standard handsets, so may be adequate for this. Again you may consider this fetishism but the market in this context isn't to replace the standalone digital camera.

Cost of a data plan?

[Anonymous Coward]

$400 for a phone with integrated GPS and stuff is not that bad. However the cost of a data plan needs to be considered. I would love one of these if mobile data access was cheaper. It looks like the buyer has to factor in another $65/month!

Except for the CPU, modem, wifi, graphics chip....

[SuperBanana]

Also the reason it uses GSM is that the team have tried as far as possible to use OPEN HARDWARE ie fully documented and not lumbered with proprietary closed-source drivers.

Too bad they did a shit job.

• The CPU docs are available only after registering and "qualifying". They've (possibly illegally) hosted a copy of the PDF publicly.
• The modem has proprietary extensions, and they illegally posted a leaked NDA-only doc with the proprietary stuff documented. Posting the NDA-only doc means they'll have a tough time convincing anyone their driver isn't tainted.
• The WiFi chipset (Atheros) has no documentation available.
• The graphics chipset is NDA-docs only.
• The LCD has no documentation available.

Now. What was that about this being an "open" cell phone design?

I think it's a great idea, but the current revision sucks. They have little software available for it, it's a huge pricetag, and for chrissakes, it's not even EDGE- only basic GPRS, which means you'll get at most about 10KB/sec line-speed.

always thought this looked interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

but, if it wasn't for work, I wouldn't carry any cell phone, and, the beancounters just had a brilliant idea "we can save money if we stop providing business cell phones and just call their personal cell phones", well, screw the bastards: "if you aren't paying, you don't get to call me". so, I won't be trying the moko out.

Re:always thought this looked interesting

[Ancient123]

Wow...
That logic is awesome.
Next convince them that because everyone has cell phones you don't need landline phones at the office.
Then your transformation into Wally (the guy from Dilbert) will be complete.

Independence Day

[WindowlessView]

I can't decide if releasing this on July 4th is clever marketing or not. Sure, OpenMoko on Independence Day, let freedom ring! But who is paying that much attention on a 3 day weekend in the summer? Do they have follow-up press releases and event next week when people are back at work and in their normal routines?

Re:Independence Day

[mrslacker]

The press release was actually made on July 2nd and got quite some coverage (see Google news), and it went on sale in the wee hours of July 3rd (which I submitted to Slashdot but didn't get mentioned). Don't worry, it's just Slashdot being slow ;-)

Anyway, people reading this on July 4th like us are clearly paying attention :p

Obligatory

[jwisser]

In grand old /. tradition:
No 3g. Less space than an iPhone. Lame.

Should be interesting to see where this leads.

Re:Obligatory

[Culture20]

ssh client without jailbreaking. open moko wins.

Re:Obligatory

[Erikderzweite]

No contract, no unlocking or jailbreak needed, lower overall cost, much more flexible.

Last but not least - Freedom.

Re:Obligatory

[walter_f]

If you buy a FreeRunner, it will be yours, no strings attached. Not Apple's, like an iPhone, featuring two-year-contracts, restrictive software clauses, CSS, DRM and so on, forever.

Now take your pick.

And yes, "this" (namely, Openmoko and FreeRunner) will lead to a free and open telecommunications platform.

Re:Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess, since I don't live in one of the few tiny 3G hotspots that polka-dot the US (http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=us&net=b3) and don't have any plans to move a couple of states away to get into one, I don't understand why people are demanding 3G capabilities right now. Why get a 3G device (second-gen iPhone?) if you are hundreds of miles away from 3G service? Based on that map, it looks like 10 of 50 US states have no 3G coverage whatsoever.

Maybe the people requesting 3G all live in the few urban population centers that actually have that service, but it seems like there must be a huge base of potential data-consuming customers for whom 3G is a complete non-issue. All this clamor, so little coverage.

I'd hate to pay a premium for my hardware and my cell plan because my provider selectively offers 3G service.

No Slide Out Keyboard, No Purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

And that goes for the iPhone as well. It's simply not a debatable issue. I text far too often, and one of these ninjas would only end up causing me frustrated with my fat fingers or frustrated with my oily fingers and smudges all over the damn thing.

No, touch screen is pretty much the worst thing ever, simply because it is new and fancy and everyone wants to use it, so they use it for everything, whether or not it is useful is completely inconsequential to most designers.

It's very sad :(

With that said, I'm incredibly interested in the entire concept of the OpenMoko. I just require a slidy keyboard.

Oh well, they probably didn't want my money anyway :]

Re:No Slide Out Keyboard, No Purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

I definitely agree with you there. people who write apps and use SSH clients aren't going to want a physical keyboard on their phone? This is retarded. Why did they have to copy the fucking iphone and do it so shittily? just make the thing rectangular with a larger screen and slap a hardware keyboard on there somehow and this may have been a decent phone. See http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=HTC_Hermes

Details....

[DrYak]

Too bad they did a shit job

But on the other hand, the software handling all these components is available as free and open source software. Even the GPS and the GSM (because those two component are mainly handled by their own internal firmware which contain the closed-blob and communicate with standard interface with openmoko - So well, some geeks could argue that the thing isn't letting them do 100% of what they want)
On the other hand, current 3G licensing would have prevented an open source stack inside open-moko. Not only would the 3G chip run its own firmware inside, but the software interfacing the chip would have to be a closed blob too.

Anyway, if the phone proves to sell, a version with 3G *and* webcam is probably only 1 year of hacking away. Probably even field-upgradable for Ãoebergeeks with access to facilities able to solder-swap a BGA chip.

That's sound a nice project...

[DrYak]

for the RepRap I'm trying to put together in the near future.

I mean seriously : although there are very few of them, there are geeks here around who are into all this rapid prototyping. Be it with reprap or fab@home, or bigger facilities available in their universities (Z-Corp...)

These are the perfect audience for all the recently released CAD files (OpenMoko's Neo Freerunner, ASUS' EEE PC, etc.)

Re:Except for the CPU, modem, wifi, graphics chip.

[jadavis]

Unless I'm mistaken, it's more free than any other phone out there. We can't compare this to an ideal, we have to compare it to alternatives, and decide where to vote with our dollars.

Even my Debian desktop is not entirely free. I use a proprietary nvidia driver, and I use the flash player.

Someone invested a lot of money -- and might see much of it lost -- trying to make this phone. The revenue they generate indicates the demand, and will be the primary deciding factor for future investment.

There are pretty serious privacy concerns with cell phones -- arguably more serious than with desktop computers.

Right now it would be convenient for the police to mandate various kinds of back doors so that they can spy on you. I don't know whether this is true or not, but they may already be able to turn on your phone remotely, so that they can track you. They need the cooperation of the phone companies, but they already have companies like ATT under their thumbs ("do what we say, or we'll investigate you for anti-trust violations").

So, even though this phone doesn't really compete on technical merits, and isn't as free as we would like, it's still worth considering.

The SAR's OK

[Anonymous Coward]

The SAR on the Openmoko isn't all that high at all.

A body/head SAR of 0.49/1.08 W/Kg for PCS1900 and 1.4/1.27 W/Kg for GSM850 is fairly average for smartphones.

There are lots of cellphones on the market pegged hard against the US legal limit of 1.6 W/Kg, like some Motorola units.

Try here...

[itsmilesdavis]

Awesome, now when I want to make a phone call, I get to search in forums for 7 hours, trying to figure out how I can accomplish this (just like doing anything in linux)

And, when I post my problem in a linux forum, I'll get the always helpful answer

"try here: www.google.com"

I already have Linux in my pocket

[Anonymous Coward]

on my Nokia N800 which I got last year for under $200. How is this better?

Re:I already have Linux in my pocket

[LarsG]

Removes the need for a phone. Oh, and GPS.

But yeah, touché; N8x0 are excellent devices.

Re:I already have Linux in my pocket

[Noodlenose]

As this does not have any phone capabilities (apart from skype) and is more expensive than an EEEPC, I'd be interested to hear the benefits of a N800 (orN810) over an EEE?

Re:Except for the CPU, modem, wifi, graphics chip.

[Anonymous Coward]

wow.. just wow... this sounded like a good idea and all but you just completely obliterated it with the facts. it sounds like any other phone as far as proprietary shit, but it uses outdated and crappy hardware. Not even EDGE speeds for data, WTF?! I can't see techies buying this, hell I can't see ANYONE buying this.. This project is over before it even started! This is very sad..

Phone is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, I went straight to the BUY NOW section

Do NOT go to the buy now section! Buried deep in the site, far away from the e-commerce pages you'll find this tidbit:

"Notes about expected battery life

Battery life is a work in progress. The power saving software is in a very rudimentary state. At the moment 12h is about the most (note though a recent result of at least 21h, mostly in suspend, with multiple short wakeups, on the predecessor device GTA01). A week standby and 6 hours talk, 20 hours mp3 might be attainable when power saving software is complete. "

And just so we're clear, they're talking about 12 hours in standby, not talk time. You unplug your phone at 7am to take it to work with you. No later than 7pm, the battery is dead. That's absolutely pathetic. Power management always has been and in the foreseeable future will continue to be a problem. Getting power management into an acceptable state is a dirty, unglamorous job that nobody wants to tackle and that's why it isn't fixed yet.

Re:Except for the CPU, modem, wifi, graphics chip.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know whether this is true or not, but they may already be able to turn on your phone remotely, so that they can track you.

Really, some people are just too paranoid about this shit, but here's a solution since you couldn't figure it out on your own.
Phone + Zip-lock Bag
1. Remove battery and SIM card from phone.
2. Place battery, phone, and SIM card in bag.
3. Never worry about being tracked.

Re:Except for the CPU, modem, wifi, graphics chip.

[jadavis]

So you're saying that it's OK with you if someone else has control over your device (a control that you don't have at all, by the way), so long as there is some way (however impractical) to sufficiently disable your own device so that they can't exercise that control?